Catie Payne - Reskillience

An episode from the 2021 archives with Catie Payne (former co-host of Futuresteading, now podcast host of Reskillience). 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hi, I'm Sophie. Welcome to Big Things Little Things, a podcast series where I sit down with inspiring change makers to discuss the big things they're doing, the little things that make them who they are. And together we vision pathways towards a better future.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

He sometimes he's really old and crotchety, so we will give out some low extended groan. I just unplugged the fridge because I sat down and I was all ready and I've got my water, and then the fridge was like I turned that sucker off. So I'm really sorry if there are interruptions of that nature. Um, it's just a bit of a colourful house.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Oh no, don't don't worry, because I I have both of my dogs in here and they, yeah, like just I don't know what it is. They just know when you need silence, and then they're like, I'm going to repeatedly scratch myself with my long nails, like that clicking, yeah. I totally understand exactly what you mean. So it'll be coming from both ends.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah, Dave licks his crutch and it has this like shlurping sound. And sometimes that wakes us up in the morning, so it's a nice alarm.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I think we have similar, like similar dogs. Because anyway, in my writing last night when I sat down on the couch and snuck out from the bedroom from Margot, um, I yeah, wrote a little intro. So I'll I'll read it out for you. So I said, Welcome to the podcast, guys. It's week four, and today we have Katie Payne. The listeners probably would know Katie's voice from the podcast Future Steading. Uh, I interviewed Jade in week two, and Jade is the other half of the Future Steading podcast. Um, I've been listening to Future Steading for quite a while now. I feel like in my mind it felt like Future Steading has been going for years, but then when I actually looked at it, did you only start it in 2020?

SPEAKER_02 2:40

It feels like years as well on this edge. Yeah. In the best sense. Yeah, I remember starting it just as the pandemic was really kicking in and Jade and I were discussing like taking all of our money out of the bank and putting it under mattresses, and it was kind of that era where shit was going down and we were like learning to live without toilet paper and yeah, all of the mad ideas. But here we are, year and a half later.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

I was so shocked when I was like it was only in 2020 because I it was I listened from the very beginning, and it was like a really key part in my doing what I'm doing, because it really, I don't know, like cracked open the door of possibilities in terms of climate activism, I reckon, for me. So yeah. It was awesome, which I mean, I don't know if that was your intention to kind of what what was your intention? Like you how did it start? Like, what was the conversation that you and Jade had with Future Steading where you decided to do it and what was your reasoning behind it?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

I feel like my usual rationale is to scare myself shitless and do things that feel really out of my comfort zone, and recording a podcast is definitely that. Um Jade is, as you know, a visionary, such a leader, someone with so many ideas and an ability to bring people together to execute them in a way that it just boggles my mind. So I'm very much like I'm a helper. I want to help people do their thing. I'll probably I'll be sitting around waiting for someone to say, hey Katie, I've got an idea. I think that you and I should do this, and I'll say yes and jump in and give it all I've got. But I am generally not that person who conceives, you know, the big, bold, brazen thing because it's it's daunting to me. So I slipstream, I was in Jade's slipstream on the future setting thing. She came up with the term, I think she had it all cooked in her mind in a very elegant way, you know, with the book, and she had a real vision around that. And I think because we got on so well when I hoofed at Black Barn, um, she remembered that that delicious lady chemistry that we had.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

And it is there's something to be said around, you know, when you do something together and you have that accountability and somebody to bounce off. And you know, we were sitting there in the first few days of recording, we had zero idea how a microphone worked, what Zencaster did, how we were going to approach these people. But because we were together, we could both kind of just freak out and have someone to buttress our fear. And so, yeah, I think so helpful, like you're going alone, you are such you're so amazing at just taking the ball by the proverbial horns. Um, and yeah, so I guess for me, I remember having a conversation with Jade, and we both said, look, if it's not fun, let's not do it anymore. So that was our only, that was our core intention, just to have fun and to have conversations that seemed and are really genuine and honest with people and maybe ask different questions. You know, we we we hear people talk about, you know, people have their beautiful academic uh TED talk-esque presentations that they're ready to give, but we also want to know about them, and this is also what you're doing, Soph, like getting to the heart of that person and what makes them tick and what they do each day, because that's the stuff that really, really fascinates me. So I think that was the intention behind Future Studying, bringing a much more personal spin to these people who we see up there on their on their plints doing and saying amazing things, and it's like, well, yeah, but what do you eat for breakfast?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yes, yeah, I know. It's like I asked, who did I ask? Hannah Maloney, do you wear deodorant? I know. And then I was like, oh my god, you're such a shut up, Sophie.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Umpits.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

I know, and since she said no, I'm like, well, then I'm not wearing deodorant either. No, I do wear it sometimes. But but uh, you know, the no pong deodorant, which is like the paste that you sort of like smear arm push through your arm hair.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Like I've been having that problem too, because I'm growing out in a luscious forest and you've got a the paste just kind of sits in the hair, so it becomes a dread. I've got like a uni dread coming out from my kit. And it does get to the point where it's like, what why? I'm just let's just not even let's not mask that beautiful heady musk.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

That's that's a heady musk that I think that um it smells like Clary Sage flowers, um, BO. Anyway, so I mean I've been thinking about the Future Studding podcast a lot and just contemplating because I guess for me, I I came in thinking about it being like, well, it's a climate activism podcast. You know, I came in with that lens, but then I was thinking about it two nights ago, and I was like, well, it's not really like climate activism is putting it in like one box, and it's not really just that box, it's more. It's um it actually kind of reminds me of Charles Eisenstein's podcast, but in a different way. Um, because he's talking about how we're moving to this new world, a place of interconnectedness. Um, he's like, you'll just make sense of what this podcast is about as you listen. And I think in a way, your podcast reminds me of those themes because it is about yeah, community and coming together and challenging the narrative and um, you know, and you're brainstorming problems in real time through conversation, which I think is really interesting and something that we don't because people are so used to like scripted, listening to like scripted shit through the mainstream that's got other agendas, you know. So I think it's really cool that you yeah, just like touch on the truth and you just work things out in real time. Really cool.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Oh, thank you. That's a really beautiful appraisal. And I guess I'll just say, like, I can't speak for Jade, but for me, I almost feel guilty sometimes not focusing more on the activism part, but I always I think it's it's personal, you know. We have to, we have to be okay in ourselves, or not even not okay, because what even is that, but we have to start with ourselves. That's the very center of everything, you know. We're not the center of the universe, but we're the center of our own universe, and we have to we have to tend to that first. And I think having conversations and not trying to brand something, not trying to say what it is or isn't, not trying to say this is an action we should be taking before, you know, that's all getting ahead of ourselves. I I just see and I saw so much in health, you know, trying to apply all of these rigid protocols and diets and all of the things. It's kind of this architecture that's very rigid, but like the person inside was struggling or um you know, flagellating themselves or not not at peace, and nothing's going to be sustained. And so I think for me, the activism springs up naturally out of someone who has a you know equanimity or an ability to stay and accept the situation, whatever that situation is, and it's increasingly uh terrifying, I guess, but we have to sit with that, and then something out of that will spring, and that might be frontline activism, that might be creating a podcast, it might be drawing a picture, it might be you know cooking something for someone.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

These are all different forms that goodness and and you know I guess activism in all these little ways, but they're not the the end, you know, it's it starts with us, so I I totally agree with that, and I actually think that the more I do this, the more I think yes, you do need to start with yourself because starting with yourself, if we truly are interconnected, right? Like yourself is everything else as well. So if you can heal yourself and do some of that like hard internal work, naturally that kind of flows out into the environment around you and creates a benefit for those around you and creates positive change. So it may like feel counterintuitive to to focus inward, like with these outer problems, but I think that it actually is all related.

unknown 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Um, yeah, so I think that's pretty cool. Yeah, well, that's how you explain that. Yeah, well, you do.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

I really love that. And it's it's kind of we have this obsession with quantifying things. And if I have 20,000 followers, this is more successful than someone sitting at home with no followers. But I would say, what how are we how are we, you know, um calculating that and what value are we ascribing to these things? Because if you're at home and you've got five people in your immediate vicinity that you can love so well and bring joy to and nurture, and that isn't that the most fundamental thing, and then they're going out and doing that with their two or three or four or five people, like these are these are the systems that make sense to me, not trying to overreach and gain thousands and thousands of people looking at your shit, but like, is that a is there quality to that? And is it again like is it sustainable for yourself? So oh, you can probably get the sense that I'm a little bit um hesitant when it comes to to overreaching our capacity as individuals and trying to like scale things up because it's just that's when problems start, you know? It's kind of like us our cities and our civilizations are just so huge and unwieldy and fragile because we're all extending these big like mechanical arms out into the ether. And it's like, wait a second, what are you doing at home? And what about your partner? And what about your dog and your children? Like, they're right there. And if you love that little kid, if you you know, Margot could go on with this bucket that you've filled up with love and awesomeness, and like maybe she'll be prime minister and do the most amazing job because she's so fucking balanced, like this is important.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

That's yeah, that is so true. I I have been struggling with that reconciling, like having children at this this period of time in life, and and just thinking, you know, was I right to bring them into this world? But part of this work has shown me that I just have this intuitive sense that there is like a bigger plan to all of this, and the children that do come into the world at the moment have come for a purpose. And my job as a mother is to like equip my children as best I can to be the most um, you know, resourceful like contributors to society who can help us go through. Because I I think this is just the most epic rite of passage, this um this climate crisis, which I I hate that term because I think it really is reductionist. But the climate crisis, I mean like the humanitarian crisis, the environmental crisis, like just every part of society right now that's unraveling and falling apart, I think is the biggest rite of passage that we have as human beings, that we are all we've got to work through this together. And the only way we're gonna get through it is together. And so um, yeah, through for my children, I think that's how I I reconcile having them at this time is just um yeah, really making them the best contributors to society that I can, and and part of that is just having a happy, healthy childhood in the in the dirt in the garden.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yeah, it's so so wise. And my my question is, you know, we we're sitting here and saying uh things that are really comforting and they're comforting me, and it's there's a peacefulness about them, but how do you hold can you can you hold those feelings? Or are some days you're just like holy shit, my kids? You know, how do you actually keep this? Um do you have a practice around staying level-headed?

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Oh, it's so hard. Honestly, I I really struggle with um my internal chatter. Um, I just feel like I at the moment recently I've felt like I'm just running a million miles an hour, you know, like I may not be working in a conventional job, but I still feel sometimes I get onto that mouse wheel where I'm just running, running, running, running, don't really know, not tuning into the environment around me, but just like ticking all the boxes of things that I've got to do. And um one thing that I have recently done, which is I've just recognised that I'm trying to do too much stuff for other people and I'm not doing stuff for myself. And um, so I've signed up to this, I think I mentioned it to you, like this thing called soul coaching, which sounds woo-woo, but um, I mean, I yeah, I I mean I kind of view it as like a um like a psychotherapy kind of mentoring practice. Um, it's with a dueler who's local and it's for 14 weeks, and basically we do these sessions where we're just trying to work through my shit and like find out what's holding me back. And part of that is my um internal chatter and and not grounding myself and being present in the moment enough. So yeah, I definitely have days where I I don't feel good, I don't feel like I'm being the best mother, I am really angry, I have a lot of anger to the world at the moment. Um and but I mean part of this whole journey is I've got to have compassion for myself. It's okay. I've just got to like sit in that horrible discomfort and yeah, and just recognize that take more time for myself so that I can be better for those around me. And part of that is these sessions with this dueler. But it's hard. When we had our session the other day, you know, I I was like crying because there's you know, there's a lot of like internal battles that I I face like on a day-to-day basis. And yeah, so I'm definitely not perfect. Like I say this stuff and it sounds comforting, but part of it is just me telling myself to comfort myself, to be like, Sophie, this is what you're doing. Remind me of my path.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Um the words matter, you know, they they they get out there and they they reverberate, and I hope that they're vibration influences something, and it definitely can cement something in our minds. And so say it, say it, say it, and eventually you might feel it.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Exactly, yeah. And could you describe for the listeners, describe the physical environment that you're um you're in right now and what's happening in your life at the moment for me.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah, so at the moment I'm sitting in, we've been renting a little cottage in Northcote, which is an in an inner urban um suburb of Melbourne, and I've never lived in Melbourne before. We moved here right at the start of the pandemic, and I was it was quite, I was very begrudging. I dragged my heels across Bat Bass Strait and was looking bitterly at my partner saying, What have you done to me? Because we were in Tassie before that, and I was having a whale of a time, and I really felt like that was my home bit. Anyway, I'm sitting in my Melbourne cottage and we've loved it here. We've been here for a year and a half. Um, and it's the most normal thing we've ever done. Like George and I and my partner don't normally do normal things. We like weeds, we kind of live in the gaps, we house sit, or we we help on farms, or I don't know, we just have different arrangements because um we like change and we like pushing ourselves and the boundaries. But um, yeah, we've been doing this weird conventional thing, paying rent to a landlord. And we actually packed up yesterday, so this is very I'm in this liminal space now between houses. Um sitting in an empty kitchen as a few blowflies in here doing this square pattern above me. They've they've come in off the back of our furniture removals, and it's um it's very strange because this has felt like a real home and the garden is flourishing. And anywho, we um, as people might know or might not know, um we've for a long time, you know, we're really into sharing sharing spaces where of the generation that is gonna find it really, really hard to attain our own property because there's just you know the housing market is in complete, I think it's absolutely bananas.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

And also Especially in Melbourne, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah, Melbourne, if we want to live somewhere that's you know walkable and we can actually live that life where we're localized, we're not relying heaps on our car and accessing the things that we value, we need a couple of million bucks. And also we really, really deeply question the need to own things. Um, very, very big discussions around whose land is it, who who set up a fence originally said, hey, this is mine, and then suddenly people are paying, you know, through the generations for something that's accumulating value and it's all stolen and unseated. And that's just like a complete, it's a real um, yeah. I don't know how to reconcile that because we have to live in the world, we can't separate ourselves completely from this society, we have to kind of work in it and with it, but at the same time, George and I have never really aspired to home ownership. So, very long-winded way of saying we've been on the lookout for an arrangement where we can live on someone else's property and offer things that aren't monetary. So we have enthusiasm, we have muscles, we have a dogged desire to, you know, work the garden and grow things, and we have all these other things. We don't have the millions of dollars to be able to purchase that land and have the deeds, but um, we've learned over the years from Wolfing and Help Exchange that there can be this such a reciprocal and beneficial arrangement between people that have more resources and those who have fewer, you know, monetary resources, and something really beautiful happens when you can cooperate and overlap in that way. And I think for the future, for people like me, we have to be creative in these um in these imaginings of what our life is going to look like. And so the other day, literally two weeks ago, I was sitting on the couch thinking, I really like this place. We can we can cope with paying $600 a week rent, cough, and splutter. Um, we can we can make this work, we we economise and all of our other things. This is, you know, this is fine. And then I was talking to my mum and she said, Hey, I heard that um the home David Holmgren and Sue Dennett might be looking for someone at Meliadora. And I was like, What? No, mum.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Your mum said that was it?

SPEAKER_02 20:08

My mum just randomly, and she's in Tasmania. I was like, How do you, what are you even talking about? No, I know that I know the people living there and they're not leaving. Why would you ever leave Meliadora, the most gorgeous permaculture homestead ever? And then Jake got in touch with me like six hours later saying, Hey, I'm just got off the phone to Sue Dennett, and you wouldn't be looking at Wolfing, would you, anytime soon? I know you're very happy where you are, and I was like, What? What is this? And I guess with the pandemic and everything that's been going on, I've just had this vision in my mind that I've been holding literally of Meliadora because it seems like it represents all of these things to me, like community sufficiency, somewhere that's shared, young people doing stuff, old people, like intergenerational, um, all of the things I hold really close to my heart. I thought, if only we could live somewhere like that. And then out of the ether, these lightning bolts of opportunity and inspiration kind of struck, which is just the most absurd and remarkable thing. And next day we're on the phone to Sue. Next day after that, we're being invited to live with David and Sue at Meliodora. So they've got a little um, it's not even little, it's like a second home on their property that David built for his mother when she was um getting on in years, and it's mud, brick, and solar passive, and the front is a greenhouse, and it's so gorgeous. It's so beautiful, and we moved all our stuff up there yesterday. And so, yeah, starting this weekend, we'll be um working two to three days a week in exchange for that accommodation and you know, all of the food that we can grow, and the goats and the chickens and the orchard, and obviously steeping ourselves in 40 to 50 years of permaculture, wisdom, and learnings. Um, this to me, you know, I guess for some people it might feel like a compromise because you're living on someone else's land and you're having to fall in with the you know prevailing values and I guess structures and rules inverted comments of that. Place, but for us, it's like this is it's such a deep yearning, and I think maybe maybe other people have this yearning too to be held within a community structure that there's a stratigraphy there, like the elders and then the adults and the the adolescents and the babies, and it's like this whole I don't know, there's so much comfort in that, and I think we're so individualistic and we're so um and I see you know people young, youngish people like us, like telling older folks what to do and what they should know, and um that they're wrong about stuff. It's like what happened to all of those years of wisdom that we used to look to and actually kind of in a benevolent dictator kind of sense adhere to. I want to go and be told what to do by David Holgren and Sue Dennett, and so that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Well, I'll I'll give just for those because I think probably some of the listeners are like right into permaculture and will know exactly what we're talking about and know like how epic this opportunity is. But for those who who who don't know, I I'm gonna give a little bit of an overview. So Katie um is referring to a property called Meliadora that's in um Victoria. Where what's the region it's in? Uh Hepburn Springs. That's right near Dales. Hepburn Springs. So Meliador is a permaculture property that is um owned by um David Holmgren and Sue Dennett. Is that that's right? And David Holmgren uh and Bill Mollison, in my understanding, were the sort of originators and founders of the permaculture movement, which is now like this global phenomenon that's especially I view through the pandemic gaining huge traction because people are looking for solutions. And I think that permaculture offers this amazing kind of like um systems framework for for viewing the world that's really beneficial at the moment. And so um Nelly Adora is like such a beautiful permaculture property, and they have goats and gardens and food forests, and um, it's just this incredible example of what permaculture is capable of. And so, yeah, the fact that um so Katie told me that she hasn't done um a permaculture design course yet. Um, and so she is going in for like the ultimate like immersive uh learning experience. And I am so excited to hear, you know, just like how how you like how the whole process goes and and what you learn through it. And um yeah, I definitely if you ever feel the urge to like check back in and like share some of your learnings, like as you go, definitely hit me up because oh, I'm so interested in in your journey there. I think it's going to be like transformative for you.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yes, yeah, definitely be showing updates and it's that kind of I've had this feeling before when I'm on the cusp of jumping into a large body of cold water, and I feel like this is the sensation where it's thrilling, it's so thrilling that I know I'm jumping into some unknown space, and maybe this is giving it it's that's a bit too sensational, but it actually is like another world, and you know, they haven't taken the bin out in 15 years. These people are incredibly uh thoughtful, and their attention to detail is totally unsurpassed, and this is not the way that we're currently living, like we're doing our best, but it's it's really hard in an urban context, and yeah, there's just going to be this huge learning curve, and I have this really spine-tingly feeling around, you know, the the challenge that this is um representing to me, and that's where I feel really alive, you know, when I come up against the edges like that. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

And I can't wait to hear. So you just mentioned your partner, George. And I don't know much about George, but I get the feeling that he's a very important person in your life. So I was wondering if you could like tell me a little bit about your story with George. Like, what's the the backstory with you guys?

SPEAKER_02 25:58

He is a man of mystery, he's one of those puritanical souls who doesn't have all any of the social media things and he just lives his life in integrity and says, you know, does what he says and all of this disgusting stuff. He just rubs it in my face every day. How gross and uh steady this man is. He's truly the love of my life and and such such an incredible human being. Um I get really I get really emotional talking about him because I just feel so lucky. I wish there was another word for blessed, it's been so corrupted, but I do feel so so blessed that he is he's part of my life. And um, yeah, it was a pretty funny story actually. I I operate on on feelings, like you know, I do do really insane things to other people perhaps that that I just had a hunch about, and then somehow something happens and I'm like affirmed in that in that ridiculous thing that I did. So simple like I was in Adelaide a few years ago and I loved I loved my life there. I had lots of beautiful friends. I was in my 20s, I have to say, I was in a bit of a like go fuck yourself, men phase after a litany of dating disasters. Um, and so I just had this feeling like I loved Tassie. I'd been there years prior and worked on farms and found this kind of magic down there, had a real resonance with that island. And so when I was living in Adelaide and I was so jaded, even though I was really happy and doing my thing and had a job and right-y right, I was like, you know what? Time to shake things up. Really feel like I need to go to Tasmania right now. There's just this uh overwhelming urge that I need to pack up and go to Tassie really swiftly, and I did, I just did that. And I remember being at a party, like my friend's 30th, and everyone was like, What are you doing? Like this is you know, I had such a beautiful community there. Anyway, so I defied all logic and reason and went there in my car with my dog, crossed the vast straight, and um was only in Tasmania for a couple of weeks or a few weeks, and I got this job in an advertising agency, which was also really random, um, a stroke of luck. And I remember my boss, she was a cool woman, saying to me, Oh yeah, I I did a similar thing to you when I was in my 20s, and I met my husband in a fortnight, and I was like, What are you giving me this relationship for relationship advice for, lady? I didn't ask for your opinion. And then next next day, um, I was working on the reception desk. So I I'm a copywriter, um, but when I first started working at this ad agency, I think they were like going to put me through my paces, and so they stuck me on reception and I was answering the phones, and um one day I answered, and there was this very, very dapper British accent on the other end of the line asking about employment. And he he was a videographer and he was from Melbourne and he was looking to move to Tasmania, and we just had really good Bants, as they say, witty Bants. And I um he was yeah, looking for an opportunity to have a meeting with someone there. Little did I know he was trying to get permanent residency in Australia, and Tassie actually had a good provision for creative people, so he was flagrantly using us. He had no intention of moving to Tasmania.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

He's like, This lady will be my wife, this is my green card, except Ulterior Modern decide whatever you want to say about it.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

George, this is George, right? And we really hit it off. And I had his details then because I was trying to get him a meeting with the head, the head honcho at our at our agency. And so I had his website and I looked him up and I was like, oh, this guy's really good looking and he seems really cool. Like, that's not my kind of thing. I'm not, I don't go for good-looking normal guys, just no.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

No, they're too scary. I I agree. Anyone that's too good looking, I don't trust. I'm like, no, no. No, you can't be a good person. You're too good looking.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

So sad. I mean, they didn't ask to be so beautiful. George didn't ask to have the perfect features. Like, he's just, yeah, he's so beautiful. Anyway, so I saw his website and I was like, okay, all right, calm down, Katie. You know, you're feeling a little flushed right now. This person is a babe. Um, and yeah, anyway, long story short, like we kind of kept in touch while he was trying to set up a meeting in Radira, and he ended up coming to Tasmania to meet up with people, and he was like, Let's get a coffee. You know, I'm um I'm thinking of moving, let's chat about the island. And yeah, we we met up for coffee at a wine bar.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

The best kind of coffee.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

And I still remember that day, it was like classic Tasmanian day, overcast, cold as buggery. And I got out of my car, and George is like waiting on the street in his little jacket, which is like a 12-year-old jacket because he's such a hippie and doesn't buy anything and has like the most just dreadbare clothing in his little jacket. And I saw him and we waved, and I was like, holy shit, like I think I think this person is really important. And I just had that feeling, and I know that sounds so bloody the secret or Juliet.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

No, no, I love it. That's I I I totally love that at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

And this was after, like, you know what, the the the undercurrent of this story is that all through my life, and I mean all through my my life when I would be looking for romantic love, obviously, I had this feeling it's like, okay, meeting people who are great on paper, and my head says this is fine, but I'm just not feeling that this is right. And I kept, you know, I kept having to say no in those situations, even when it was really hard and I was hurting people's feelings, and I was like in hard situations because I'd invested in this person, but you know, this is how I guess an overarching way that I live my life is if it's it just is right or it isn't for me. And I feel that so acutely, and so it's like a an like an instrument that has such a fine tuning, and I can trust it so implicitly. And the only reason I don't trust it is when it's inconvenient. So I inconveniently overwrote all these like dating situations where these people were perfectly wonderful human beings, but it just wasn't the thing. And I I had to trust that there was something out there, there was this love that I only had as an idea. I didn't have any evidence that this actually existed. I had plenty plenty of cynical friends that say no, like relationships are a compromise, you're never gonna find that person. Like, give it up, you fairy tale crazy person. And I just refuse to believe that. And I refuse to believe that in life, you know, like I'm going to live my life in a way that aligns this tuning fork so that it's like on because I don't have evidence that that's a thing, but I also know internally that I'm not gonna be happy unless I'm honouring that. So yeah, with George, I we just found each other, and we had these insanely similar trajectories. Like he'd worked on all these farms and he'd done so many odd and interesting things, and we just came together in that moment. And I really think it's because I did something, I did something bold, and he was doing something bold, and we we got together, and it's been many, many years now, and I I just yeah, he's so incredible and such an influence in my life. Um, and I'm so lucky, and I really think that it's because I just followed that feeling, even when it didn't make sense or it wasn't convenient, and yeah, he's a he's a counterpoint to me because he was quite introverted and quiet, and um, he'll just plod along and do his thing. And I feel like he's the actual um meat and substance of of all the things that we do, and I'm just like posting about it on social media and making it look really shiny and like putting the icing on the cake, but he actually is like the brains and the heart of this operation.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Oh, I think that's so nice. I love how hearing you talk about only being able to live and make decisions that feel right, like that. I'm like that too, and I think that's part of why we get along. I I find it really hard to to live in a way that doesn't feel right, and that has made me do some things through my life that look really stupid to other people, you know, like it maybe makes you look um really flaky, or um I don't know. It just made your decisions don't always make sense to other people, but it's because sometimes you get yourself into these positions and you're like, I just can't like this, does not feel right, like what I'm doing right now. Like I have to change this situation. And so yeah, I I love that.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Well, do you have any examples, Soph? I'd love to hear.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Oh, it's kind of embarrassing. Um just for example, um when I was at school, I remember being really unhappy uh when I was like 14 or something, um, in my school in Warwick and being like, Well, no, my sister went to boarding school, I'm gonna go to boarding school, and um such epic privilege, and it's revolting. But um so, so yeah, like I just was like, I'm gonna do this. I don't want to be in Warwick, I want to go to boarding school. So I um I convinced my parents to let me do that, and I and I went to this boarding school in Toumbo, which was like this Catholic boarding school, and truly, Katie, I was there for one week and I was I cried every day. And it was, I felt physically sick. I didn't like eat the whole week, I didn't sleep the whole week. And you know when you just like your whole body is revolting against this place. I'm like, this is not, I cannot be here. And I I like got so desperate, like in that situation, that I remember going, I went to see the nurse in the boarding school, and I was just like hysterically crying, being like, I can't, I need to go home, like I can't be here. This is not like I just feel so terrible, like in my soul. And she said, Um let's book you in with a doctor and we might be able to put you on antidepressants.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

And I was like, what the f cover that shit up.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Like, and so then I I'm gonna go and see the the principal of the school. And so I went and saw the principal, and and she was like, she said to me, because I was hysterically crying saying I wanted to go home. And she said, What happened to the charismatic Sophie that I interviewed? Um and that just made me feel like absolute shit. And I was like, no, no, I just I want to go home. Like, I just don't want to be here. And yeah, she was horrible, you know, like and and I I just said, if you leave me here, I'm going to run away. And um, and and that Friday was like the weekend, um, the first weekend. And I remember some of the the girls there were like, oh, we're gonna go to this like social, like you should stay like a boarding school this weekend. And I was like, called mom crying. I'm like, just please can I just come home for the weekend? And little did she know that I got in the car and I was like, never going back to that place. Take me home. I'm never going back. And so, long story short, I never, I never went back. So I was at a boarding school for like one week, and you know, it just looks so crazy, but that's just one example of like my soul revolting against this institution and this place where they were putting these these rules under me. And so, luckily, the school from Warwick that I that I was going to took me back, and like that's a whole nother story in itself. But the school that I went to in Warwick was quite an alternative school. I guess it's almost aligned with like Steiner principles. It was founded by this um Indian yogi guru. Um, it very it's called the School of Total Education, which, you know, um is a very different name for a school, but like luckily they they took me back, and like, you know, my whole life's course was influenced by the remaining two years that I had at that school and the the holistic education that it gave me and that real sense of like the school and its teachers were just the kindest people who who just really took the time to not only teach you like the textbooks, but to teach you like in life and and really helped like nourish your soul and like be a more just to grounded, like happy person. So that's just like one one small example. But I I definitely copped a lot of stuff like crap from people for for only going for one week, but you know, I didn't yeah, like in doing like I had to to go and I had to realize that that wasn't right, and you know, whether or not that I look completely stupid, like that was just part of my story. And so yeah, yeah, anyway, sorry about that long story.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Well that's really interesting, and it is it is often really hard to it's it's hard to reconcile, like when your your whole spirit doesn't want to do this thing that you thought in your head that you wanted, and then not only do you ever have to overcome the physical logistics, but you have to come to terms with the fact that you know you're you're going back on something or you're um you've questioned a decision that you've made. But I found that people, I don't know, when it is a really genuine thing and you're being super honest and you have a real um you're speaking from the heart about what you need, people have just been so kind to me. Like when I feel I've really let them down, when I've pulled out of something, even though it was what you know on paper working, um it was a raging success, but I didn't feel like it was right. People just get it. And they they seem to, I don't know, there's this kind of what we were saying earlier, there's this intention and something that's the words are packaged up in when you deliver a statement, whether that's you know, real genuine honesty or whether there's something that people aren't really feeling as um congruent, there's something else, other information that's that's delivered. And I think I like to think that when you're doing those things, and even if it's a tremendous fuck up, um there's still people people get it, and we have like a deeper wisdom around that stuff that allows us to have compassion for people and ourselves. So yeah, I really like that story, and I'm sure it would have made your your school in Warwick that much more you would have appreciated it so much more for that contrast.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

That's right. And you know, I just I had this most amazing physics teacher called Mr. Fox, and he was he was this sort of like um old man in his 70s, and he was like honestly the kindest, most pure soul of anyone I've ever met. And he literally lived in the physics lab, like he barely went home. He only ate homice and rice crackers and dal and brown rice. Like that that's all that he ate, but he was like just the nicest person, and yeah, I remember coming back and and hearing all this criticism of like, oh you know, you're so spoilt, can't believe you you just went and did that, you're stupid. And Mr. Fox said to me, He's like, Sophie, you are so brave. Oh, makes me sad. Yes, he's oh, Mr. Foxy.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Oh, yeah. Oh, well, that's you can flip it, can't you? And say it is actually really brave to do these things because other people try and insulate themselves, I guess, from that from that trauma. But um, you went there.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah, no, he was so lovely and like such an important part of like my story and like having confidence in myself. And yeah, he passed away, but it's funny how these people like in your life really do touch you. Yeah. So sorry, I'm so so emotional today. But um, yeah, so you just never know. Like, just it's very important those little words of support that you do give to people can really resonate for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah, but um anyway, so let me recompose myself because I'm an emotional mess. So Margot Margot had a temperature last night, and she um she's one of those kids that throws super high temps. Like Sylvia will just get a temp of like 38, and Margot will be a temp of 40, and I'm like, shit, we gotta go to the hospital. So anyway, Marg had temp saw last night, so I only slept for about two hours, so that's adding to my my emotion. Yeah, no, she she is okay. Yeah, we we took her up to um to mum's house before and she's calmed down today, but uh yeah, that's adding to my like emotionalness. But I'm generally a big emotional mess anyway, so I'm just getting it.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

So juicy, we should all feel the emotions you're wearing up.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

But I did I did really like I'm I don't want to run out of time to ask some of these questions that I have because I I some of the stuff you've done is just so interesting. Like, particularly, I was really interested in like your volunteering on farms because um the whole woofing thing, so it's is it worldwide workers on organic farms?

SPEAKER_02 42:13

I think it's willing, willing workers.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

And I mean the willing is really depending on who's ordering you to do things, but um yeah, that's right, because like the whole woofing thing is kind of like I heard the term woofing growing up, but I didn't really get it. And I'm so pissed at myself for not actually knowing and like getting woofing earlier because I would have done it as a gap year if I had.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Well, actually, yeah, sorry, woofing, I was just gonna say I didn't actually woof that often. I used help exchange and workaway, which I found more accessible, and I don't know, I just like them as platforms a little bit better and communities. Wolfing, I think you have to pay a membership fee, and there's a few other barriers for folks to get into woofing, and there's not like as good a review system. So on Help X and Workaway, you can really get the feel for someone based on the reviews that people have left for them and their awesome um write-up and stuff like that. But yeah, woofing, woofing should definitely be a compulsory gap here. I often think this.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Yeah, so how did you get into it to begin with? Because it's sort of not like your standard thing that like a a you know person these days is aware of. Like how, yeah, how did you fall into that?

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Well, similarly to your excellent Mr. Fox, I had so many people in my life that have just been quite transient but have said something that has then propelled me in like this completely new direction. So I had a flatmate when I was living in Sydney and I was in my early 20s, and I'd uh I was studying naturopathy, uh, studying and working as a naturopath, and there was a feeling of like I needed to do something different. Again, that niggling sense of there's something more there's something more to do here, even though everything looks rosy. Um so I was yeah, living in my share house in Sydney, my red brick Randwick apartment, and we had this um yeah, classic, classic, like um uh salubrious, you know, um accommodation. And we had this flatmate who would have like Super loud sex with his girlfriend and wakes up at 3 a.m. And honestly, like all the other things about him was so very frustrating. But dear Ben was a cool guy in other manners, and he was super world-wiven and travelled a lot and was really alternative. And so I didn't really get to know him that much, except for like, you know, his uh turn-ons and the fact that he was a wolfer and that he'd used help exchange for this other platform. So he mentioned to me one day, um, Katie, you should check out Help X. I think you'd really like it. And this was all he said. And I remember So Help, like H-E-L-P-X. Help. And it's yeah, Help Exchange, and it's worldwide. Um, and it's a little bit, it's a bit clunky like you get on there and the website's really math. It's like they haven't updated it in decades. But um it's super cool. And yeah, Ben was like, just check it out. I think this could be really up your alley. And so I jumped on my laptop and I was like looking through all these listings, and my mind was just like going a thousand miles an hour because it was like people with these ads, kind of I guess ads for want of a better word, saying, like, hey, I live in a lighthouse on Norfolk Island, like I'd really need someone to come and tend the garden for two hours a day, and like you can live with me and we'll go sailing onto my boat, and we're and I was like, what? Or like Tasmania, yeah. We've we have a flower farm and we've got like this little scandy cottage, and you can live there and help us harvest, and we'll feed you, and like it's just a non-it's just non-monetary exchange. Anything you can think of, like childminding, horse riding, shepherding, like everything, and it allows you just to travel and live for free. Like you could do this your whole life and not run out of places to go. And the whole idea is it's you know, based on trust and goodwill, and uh, you know, communicating your needs to the other party so you can work out a fair arrangement. And I was just like, holy shit! My whole like I just instantly started contacting people, and it turns out that like yeah, I was looking to go to Tassie and I went to Tassie for six months and just like hopped around these farms, so yeah, help exchange totally changed my life, and it I just again had this feeling that I wanted to be in touch with with the food on my plate, and the only way I was gonna find out the truth about what I was eating, which you know, as a naturopath, I was lecturing people, banging on about their proven the provenance of their food. Where where did you get that pork? What was the soil that it that carrot was grown in? Like these things matter, you got you guys. But I had never grown anything in my life. I'd never killed anything. I'd been through all of these like philosophical questionings around eating meat and the ethics of that and whatever, but I needed to get up close and personal with those, you know, with those chooks and the battery hens and all of the things. And so I went and went up, like I guess it was a pilgrimage, or maybe that was a little mini rite of passage for me. I want to go and do these things and see what it's like on the coal face of food production. So that's where it kicked off. And then because um I just don't really I'm not gonna say agree, but I have so many critiques of our current system in terms of people's living expenses and the way that we're on this debt kind of hamster wheel, you know, we we work for our overheads, and then you know, we're in this deeper and deeper into like a debt system, and then you don't have um sense of freedom and autonomy and all of the things that I think are really important for us to actually start regenerating this planet. We can't be just working and distracted in our offices all day. Like we have to somehow get out of this cycle. Things like help exchange and non-monetary exchanges, where you're suddenly taking out your rent or your mortgage repayments or your bills and getting your hands dirty and actually engaging and reconnecting and living in community. This I think is like a really solid pathway for people who don't want to go there on you know, the conventional in the conventional paradigm. So that's why it struck me, piqued my interest, and I kept doing it for years and years and years. Whenever I got a bit stagnant in my job or whenever I needed like a working holiday, I would just go and help on farms and it would teach me so much and I would meet so many people, and um it just yeah, like I've never gotten into debt because um any holiday I've had has been like supported in that way.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

That's so cool. I I never really made the connection to that you know, you're a naturopath, and that yes, you're recommending like food to people of a particular quality and yeah, having that connection actually an experience with where the food comes from. Like that makes total sense that you would be drawn to do it. And I think it's really cool, just like I guess I had a comment, just how you've lived your life by having these moments of intuition and following them and having this kind of blind trust that those breadcrumbs will lead you towards your greater path. Because had you not, you know, done those little um farm stays and working on, you know, in these different properties, you would never have ended up working with Jade, um, which um on Black Barn Farm, which I, you know, you can check out um on Katie's Instagram. I stalked her in preparation for this interview. And um, there's a lot on her experience at Black Barn Farm, which is Jade's um property. Yeah, and like you would never have done future settings. So it's really interesting, and I think it just is like adds fuel to the fire for people to really like tune into your in tune into your intuition and like follow those breadcrumbs because it will kind of take you on that like that greater path.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

Yes, yeah, I think it's and and you also awesome. Yeah, I think it's like maybe Alain de Botton or someone of that persuasions says, you know, you can only connect the dots backwards. Like you can stand and look and see where these things are actually connecting and say, wow, look at that narrative arc of my life, but you can't do that forwards. So I think you've just got to hop along. And even if I often think, am I just making meaning out of something that is fundamentally meaningless? Doesn't actually matter. Like if I'm looking back at my life and saying, wow, look at all these things that are amounting to something. Even if that's just my human brain trying to make a story out of my life, like I want, I want my life to be a story that I'd want to read. I want it to be a good tale, so why not make it make it interesting and make it diverse? And you know, we just don't know how long we have here. And I know that's like so ridiculously, it sounds a bit like hyperbole, but honestly, every single day I think, hey, like I'm alive, my partner's alive, my dog's here, that's pretty, that's pretty lucky. This isn't guaranteed. Like, how can I? And I this is not easy to do, it's not easy to sustain that kind of awareness, but like all I have is you know the awareness and the attention that I that I have right now because I'm breathing and living. And um, I gotta remind myself of that so I'm not slipping into things that are just comfortable, that comfortable numb state.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

That's right, just kind of living, um, yeah, I know what you mean, where you just kind of like doing your routine but not really sort of engaging in in life, just ticking the boxes. Yeah, that's that's really cool. And I did like I was super interested in um asking about the prop like the farms that you worked on in Japan. Like, because was it Dancing Carrot that you went and I was like, that name is awesome. Um, like what are the farms like in Japan? Like how the because you it was an organic farm that you're on there. Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about like how it's different to Australia? Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

So we learned so much by doing working exchanges in Japan as opposed to I'm I don't mean to say just being tourists, but if we'd have just gone and travelled around Japan and like done the Lonely Planet Guide, we would have had a very different, I think, perspective, obviously. And um, yeah, we did a few different things in Japan. So the first place we went through Workaway, which is one of the sites I love to recommend, was like this hundred-year-old Japanese um farmhouse, like right at the edge of the woods. We literally saw a bear in our front yard one night, and then I was googling like, can bears get through paper walls because it's a bloody paper house. I was like not sleeping much that night.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Um, I'm going to say that yes, they probably could if they really wanted to.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

Oh my god. Yeah, you don't want to read the stories of the bears in Hokkaido in um northern Japan that literally like hunt people down. Anyway, we weren't in Hokkaido. Um, but yeah, the first place we went was this incredible old farmhouse that felt so haunted, like it was just so charged with this amazing energy. And there was a little woman who ran this place. She was a monk, a Zen Buddhist. Her name was Dorothy, and she was German. So she was a German expat and lived in Japan for 20 years. And so she just had us like raking leaves for a couple of hours a day in exchange for staying in this most incredible historic um place. So this is one of the types of like work it workaways that you can do. It wasn't necessarily a farm, but yeah, we were just like tidying up these beautiful like Zen gardens, and just literally the storm would come in overnight, ruffle the um the oak or whatever the trees were there, the red, the I don't know what they were actually, some kind of piney thing. Um they would drop all their branches, we would rake them up, and that would happen again and again and again every single day. I was like, there's a lesson here, I'm sure of it. So that was so beautiful, and she gave us like this little tiny Tonka truck to drive around the hillside and like go to the onsen, and um yeah, so we did that, and then we went to we did a hike over a peninsula in Japan called the Kumano Kodo Trail, and so we were just staying in like little guests house guest houses along the way. Um, and then we went to Dancing Carrot Farm. So that was Shinji-sun, who is just an incredible. He's a he takes his cues from Korean natural farming and Matsunobu Fukuoka, who wrote the One Straw Revolution. Um, and so Shinji is one of the very few, very few community-supported agriculture and organic farms in Japan. Literally, like 1% of their farming systems are organic or you know, of that persuasion. It's it's a really different, it's a literally a different world over there. Um, they've got such limited land space, they can't do like open grazing or big tracts of land devoted to cows because the population density is so high, it's so mountainous, it's so wet. All of these conditions make it yeah, really, really challenging to farm in the way that we might think of. So, yeah, really tiny percent of the market is organic produce. Um, Shinji is an incredible human, a commit, um, absolute like community man, and he taught us a lot about how um over there, like the Western influence. Like, obviously, we see Japan, Japanese culture as like bastions of health and longevity, but over the years, this Western influence, like our breads and hyper-processed, hyper-palatable foods have crept in, and you can get them for so like 100 yen at any on any corner at one of the 7-Elevens, and now their rates of like cancer and all these lifestyle diseases, chronic diseases are going through the roof. And this is showing us that these um the nutrition and I guess the associative lifestyle, the work lifestyle um is hurting people, but still their organic farming is just not a strong presence. But um, yeah, so he farmed in a really incredible style. Like he had um a whole system of chooks and like rice patties and um all these vegetables we'd never heard of before, and he worked us really hard, you know. It was just like full on non-stop six hours a day, like no bathroom breaks. He'd like come and pick us up in his car and take us to like another plot, and he'd be like, Let's go, let's go, get in the car. And he's got his little vendor on, and I mean, he's just a gorgeous human being and like such a ferocious warrior of farming. But it was just a complete culture, yeah, complete culture shift. And um, the thing that amused us so much were like staying in the shipping container next to their house with the like futon beds and tatami mats, and we had our toilet was like a little um port a loo, and this is classic Japan. Like this port-a-loo was this isn't classic Japan, but the next part of the story, it was like, you know, there's so many woofers over the years, and it was all festooned with mold, and like it was so disgusting, right? We tried not to use use it very much, but the thing that was most hilarious was that you'd go in there and you'd sit down and the toilet seat was warmed. It was like one of those Japanese toilets where um they like saw to everything, so it was this like gorgeous warm toilet seat with all these plush um little like options, but the whole thing itself was just absolute like skank town. Oh god. So yeah, that was really, really interesting. And um, and then also we stayed on the coast in this like abandoned kind of um an old tourist town that no one really goes to anymore because everyone travels abroad, and we stayed with this gorgeous guy at Sushi-san who um has an oyster, like a family oyster farm, and so we'd go out on his boats and be working on these oyster rafts in the middle of this bay, and it was just again like such a different world.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

So the question I always um end on for these interviews is like just asking the guests um to describe in however many words they want to um the kind of world that they would like to see in 2050. So I'm really interested to hear what you have to say.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Did you yeah, I don't know. Sorry if I caught you off guard that is.

SPEAKER_02 56:55

I heard you ask that question before, but um yeah, again, like having a vision for the future is not something I do that well because I'm so addicted to the unfolding, and I think that I can't actually predict how beautiful or how amazing something might be with my limited imagination that's kind of all bound up in the things that I'm experiencing right now. So I find it hard to even have like a five or ten year plan because I actually can't I can't purport to like create something better than this thing that might actually spring up, which I could never have foreseen. But that doesn't help you.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Um no, that's that's like beautiful humility though, because that is yeah, in line with how you live your life. There's this great unfolding that you know is so much more beautiful than our human minds can even imagine. So I yeah, I I would definitely respect that. Yeah, I guess I hear any thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Yeah, maybe I think the whole the relocalization movement is something that I find really speaks to me and speaks to that part of me that thinks that if we actually go smaller and ratchet our ambition down and bring it home and tend to all of those things that we not necessarily have control over, but are in our immediate vicinity and the relationships that are you know human relationships, not screen-mediated, not you know. I mean, I so appreciate having like you and all these far-farm friends, but there's we need to, I think, that that relocalization thing where we're in direct and immediate relationship with our with our surroundings. And so I think that world would look very much obviously like decentralizing power, not having people, uh, certain individuals, certain horrendous men responsible for millions of people, because this just doesn't, no human can carry that weight. I think um there are teachings around how many people can come together and actually have coherence and cohesion, and it might only be like 120 people or something, like these smaller groups of people who are doing their thing and um tending to their place and really having a sense of embeddedness and and loyalty and love for this this context in their own bioregion, I guess. Um, and people who aren't just figure figureheads who can actually try and who are trying to homogenize a message for all of these different this plurality of people, which just doesn't work. So I think smaller, smaller groups of people, um hyper-local, like urban, urban farms or farms where you can you can see and interact with the produce and actually appreciate and understand how things are done. And yeah, I think that would be the cornerstone of the world that I would like to see, just a lot more human scale.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

Oh, I totally agree. Yeah, because that is part of the sort of the big problems with how we're living our life right now is it's taking it away from like this natural pace of life. Um and like returning to a more human pace, I think is part of what where we need to go. Um, absolutely. Like I was just thinking the other day, I had to, I was like, had my car and I I like had to drop Sylvie to daycare and then I came home and then I dropped something to mum's, and then I went to the shops, and then I did all these things. And like that's all fine, except for that's not a human pace, you know, zipping around all over the countryside. Like if I actually had to rely on my body like with a bike or just you know, walking, I couldn't do all of those things, and it would be a lot harder for me, but it would be a lot better for the world, you know. And so I do think that's so true what you say is just returning um to a more human pace of the world and scaling everything back because we're just trying to fix everything with these like broad, broad solutions for you know the whole of humanity, and you know, no one thing is right for every every single person. So it's yeah, really interesting, I think, those themes that you that you bring up. And I like I like where you're going with that localization. I also feel pretty passionate about that. Yeah, so yeah, that's awesome. But um, thank you so much for for chatting today. I loved, yeah, love this conversation, and um, there's always just like so much I could chat to you about. So I'm sure that like hopefully one day we can um catch up again and hear a little bit about your like adventures at Meliadora because I think that's going to be so cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Yeah, oh thank you so much, Sophie. I'm really, really grateful that you asked me to be part of this podcast. And um, yeah, I just love what you're about and I yeah, can't wait to see what else you do because it's very inspiring to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:38

The feeling is mutual. All right. Well, I'll I'll probably