Morag Gamble - Our Permaculture Life

An episode from the 2021 archives with Morag Gamble of Our Permaculture Life and founder of the Permaculture Education Institute. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hi, I'm Sophie. Welcome to Big Things Little Things, a podcast series where I sit down with inspiring change makers to discuss the big things they're doing, the little things that make them who they are, and together we vision pathways towards a better future. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording, the Gethable people of the Bungelung Nation, and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging. Welcome back everyone. We are at week 13, and today I'm chatting with Mora Gamble, who's a really powerful, uh wonderful, kind woman who is a big voice in the permaculture movement. She um, I'm sure you know you might have heard of her if you've been interested in permaculture, but if not, um I'll tell you a little bit about her. So she is um a permaculture designer and educator. She has um a really wonderful podcast called Sense Making in a Changing World, where she really tries to put the pieces together of, I guess it's like chatting with uh a lot of different voices who are making profound change or people who've done like really important academic work and bringing them in and discussing how that how that piece of the puzzle fits into to the changing world. So it's a really educational podcast, and I find it extremely interesting. So I highly recommend that you check that out if you like hearing her speak today. Um she is the founder of the Permaculture Education Institute, which we talk about today. Um, and we also, towards the end of the podcast, discuss um some new ideas that she's thinking about bringing into existence through this institute. Um, kind of like a bit of a hub where all the change makers in the climate movement can come together and um communicate with each other and you know create those links so that we can work better as a team to create change, you know, um collectively rather than independently. So I think that's something that's really needed because I think there's so many individuals doing important work. Having a hub where we can all come together and do stuff and unite is is really important. Um so she's also the executive director of the Ethos Foundation. So um Morag lives up in um Crystal Waters, which is um an intentional community, and it's um just sounds like a super magical place to live with. I think it was around 500 acres there, and and there are a few hundred families who live there, so everyone has their own individual houses, but there's a lot of common property and um, you know, beautiful rainforest and wildlife there, and it's a real um, I guess, case study of how beautiful the world could be if we implemented a lot of these permaculture principles in the way that we live. So um there's some interesting videos on YouTube about crystal waters that I can link in the show notes if you want to check that out. And um, yeah, if you're in the area, I think they do tours and you can go up there to do some like permaculture workshops and things like that. So um I often go up to um to the Sunshine Coast for my holidays, so I think one day when I get up there uh I'm gonna definitely check Crystal Waters out. So I hope you enjoy this chat today. I am a really big fan of Morag, so I was pretty nervous actually, but she's just so nice that she very quickly put me at ease. So I hope you like it and um let me know if you do. And uh if you've shared it on social media or anything, definitely give me a tag and you know I love to hear your comments and what resonates with you. And um any ratings on um Apple Podcasts is also like really appreciated because I think that just gets helps to to get the word out about this podcast. So enjoy and I'll talk to you on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

This fuzziness of the picture, you just can't respond. I can see you better than I can see Fritzjoff the other day. So that's okay. Leave it.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Really cool that you brought up Fritz Fritz off Capra. I'm I'm not sort of super sure of how to say his name properly. Um just Fritzjoff. Fritz off. So I I listened to that podcast this morning. I woke up at like 4:30 and I co-sleep with my daughter and I like can't move. If I move, she wakes up. So I was like laying there thinking, okay, I might just do some more deep diving into Wareg's uh uh permaculture podcast. And so I listened to that episode this morning, and oh, it felt really uh it felt really important that I was listening to it, and things started to churn in my mind, and and I thought, oh, I definitely need to speak to you about him and his work. And basically, I I think it would be interesting to the listeners to hear a little bit about um who he is, what his work is about, and maybe how his work has influenced you. If you're happy to to chat about that.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, okay. Well, thank you for asking about Fritchov because I think that Fritzhoff Kapra is possibly one of the key people when I scan back in my mind about who have been those people that have been most influential in the shifts and changes and the trajectory that I've found myself on, I would have to point to him as being, excuse me, one of those key people. And I came, interestingly, I came across him. I was studying landscape architecture at Melbourne University back in the 1980s. And I remember at the time being really deeply fascinated about designing in a way that was uh supporting nature to thrive and communities to thrive, but being told back then very strongly that design with nature is par se. And I just could not really understand what they meant by that. I mean, I'm pretty sure they were talking from a, you know, from a design aesthetic point of view, but I was talking about that sort of the deeper philosophical approach, and I and we were just we our ideas weren't meeting. And in this time, a friend of mine from the university handed me a book by a guy called Maurice Berman called Reenchantment of the World. And oh my gosh, it just kind of opened up all these different ways of seeing because it was talking about worldview, and I realized then that I was bumping up against a different worldview and that perhaps I had been cultivating a different worldview that I I hadn't even realized that it was that's where the friction was. It wasn't in a strategy or an idea or an approach, it was in a in a worldview. And every time I was reading a book like that, that I would come across, I would flick through, you know, the back and all the references, and I would come across always Fritzov Kapra's name. And even then, you know, my dad, I remember when I was really young, he would talk about permaculture. He'd heard this bloke on ABC Radio, which they always listen to, talking about this thing called permaculture. And and to him, my my memory, I don't remember the words, but I remember the essence of what he was saying is that if you know, if anyone's going to do anything that's commonsensical, it would be about permaculture, basically, you know, that it was just such a a grounded approach that was had the big thinking about local action. And and so I'd heard I'd heard about it and I'd kind of grown up in that way without really naming it as such. And uh so anyway, I started researching um, you know, uh permaculture text as well as sort of practicing, and in the books there was Fritz of Kapra as well. And it just so happened that my mum, my mum was born in England and she'd never been back, she'd never been back to England her whole life. She she left on a boat when she was like five or six or something. Anyway, this particular year, um, she was probably about how old I am now, she decided she would go back. And so my dad and her went back to England, and and I there was another person who I was really inspired by, but he'd passed away a long time ago, was Schumacher, Fritz Schumacher, so EF Schumacher, um, who wrote Small Is Beautiful. And there was this new college that had just started up, and I'd heard about it through the magazines I was reading, called, and it was all about ecological ways of thinking. So I sent them on their journey to stop by in Devon and go to this place, and they came back with this brochure, and this in this brochure, the first course, I opened it up and it just jumped out at me. Fritzhof Capra was teaching a five-week intensive live-in program at this place, and I just I had no real, I I hadn't started work, I had no money, had nothing. I was just, I would just knew I hadn't finished even my uni. I just knew that I had to be there. It was such a certain feeling, and so I I did have a motorbike at that time, so I sold my motorbike. Um, I had oh, that was to get me to uni. I I had something else, I sold that, and and then eat and this the university for some reason, even though they said my ideas were passe. One lecturer, I think, recognized something in me and she said, Okay, I'm gonna actually pay you ahead of time to go and study with Fritzhoff Capra as long as you promise to come back and teach this to my students here at the university. What is that? My so called anyway. You know, interestingly, her and I still stay in touch. She lives now in Tasmania, and every now and then we, you know, touch base with each other, Lori Cosgrove, and I I appreciate her so much for doing that. So, anyway, I get to I I had this 10-week program planned. I was gonna go to Schumacher College for five weeks, and I was gonna do the pilgrimage to Findhorn, to Centre for Alternative Technology, to you know, um Windmill Hill City Farm, like all these different places that I was just uh an opportunity. Like back then, like none of my friends ever did gap ears, it wasn't a thing, you know. Or and I'd never been out of the country. I I was 23. It it was a different, different world. And uh anyway, so there I land in in England by myself. I had a backpack on my back and I had a bicker dun fold-up bike on my front. Basically, almost pedaled my way down to the college, and I get there and and yeah, I spend five weeks learning with with Fritzov face to face. And you know, this was the thing too. Up until then, knowledge came in books. You you would read about other people's ideas, you would, you would, it was always second or third hand or someone else's distillation of the idea, but to actually be in a place where it was firsthand embodied knowledge being shared in an embodied environment. So Schumacher College was a place where you know you you live and you work together and you're doing wood carving together, you go walking the forest and talking about ideas. So, as an educational place, it was a transformative experience thrown in with all these different ideas of you know, of what Fritchov was um as talking about. And so he was exploring the systems view of life, ecological world views, how the leading edge of science, where science is going, actually deeply underpins what we need to do as a society, how that can then give us the information and the foundation for really thinking deeply and with confidence, knowing that it wasn't just come some some kind of woo-woo thing, but this is actually how nature works, how life works, and that this permacultural approach is deeply embedded and informed by this system's view of life. And so for me, after being in that environment and and and actually end up being way more than 10 weeks because I got there and I went, oh my gosh, you know, like all of a sudden I felt like I belonged, I like I had this community, I had a there was like this, I I feel understood and I feel like I get it. It was it was that when you find that place where you just are in ease, not in a this conflict of ideas, and like, why does it I don't get that? Or you know, like it's just things just don't click. But there it did. Yeah, and I and so for me it was sort of this massive heart-opening space where I just landed.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

I uh like going back to Fritz of Capra, like I really liked his discussion around Schumacher College in that you know, it is this kind of um systems thinking, and he is on the forefront of science, but the college also, he said, brings in the spiritual perspective. And I was really interested to ask you because I mean I have run into some trouble in the past when I've sort of had discussions with friends who are also really into permaculture, because I am a deep kind of intuitive person. You know how, like you were saying before with um, was it Laurie, the professor, who you you kept seeing Frit Fritz of Capro's name appear, and like you're obviously you had a a knowing, a feeling that you needed to, there was something there that you needed to go go with. And and Laurie obviously picked up on that too. And and in going to England to study, you were acting in alignment, and that's when things do start to fall into place, and and that is so I find this intersection, like I like to live intuitively as much as possible, and I do consider myself to be um, you know, opening my mind to more sort of um spirituality. But I yeah, I have run into trouble with friends who are who are very um science-based with their approaches to permaculture and saying that there is no place for intuition with permaculture. And I I don't know how to reconcile that. And I was really interested to to ask you, like, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah, I think that's a very, very interesting question, and I'm glad you brought it up because uh I think we miss a whole lot when we don't step into that feeling intuitive space. And I don't care what anyone says, if we don't do that, we miss possibly some of the key information that the site and the connections can give to us. Uh, one of the key people that I'm I'm working with at the moment uh and looking at the edges of permaculture is an amazing woman called Nora Bateson. Now, Nora Bateson um's father is Gregory Bateson, and you may have heard of him, may have heard of um his his wife, uh who um Margaret Mead, whose quote you may have heard of, never doubt that a small group of people could change the world. In fact, it's the only thing so so let's just put that all in context, just mapping out where she where she kind of so she grew up in this world of systems thinking, and she grew up in the world of um you know exploring the edges of of knowledge and science, and you know, like from a deeply scientific background, but from a systems science view. And so anyway, I'm I'm working with her, she calls it warm data, and this is her her new um theory based on her her father's work and her grandfather's work. So they've been collectively working on this for like you know, 126 years, I think, was she was saying this continuity of this theory, but anyway, so why I mention her is because what I like about what she says, and it's and it's also what Fritchov talks about, because Fritchov was a a friend of her father as well. So this whole ecological worldview, ecological thinking, um, science that is informed by this, that when we focus on the parts, like we focus on the water or the pH or the the this or the that, we're actually missing the most of the information. And when we try and just measure something, like you know, you're actually missing all the data that's in between. So her concept of warm data is saying, you know, so like what do you choose to measure? What is the instrument that you've chosen to measure? Who's designed that instrument and what of what values have they put into how that instrument is measured? We see science and measurement and the as being the truth, but it's always informed by the instrument maker, the questionnaire, all of these different things. And so, you know, what does what does the pH of the soil tell you in isolation? It it tells you something, but you have to have the whole context. So it's it's where you start to see the context is when you open your mind to feeling into it, which is which is also a very indigenous way of knowing landscape. And you know, the you know, the first scientists are indigenous scientists who and by saying that it's not a scientific approach, is basically saying to all indigenous people in the world that your way of knowing and your knowing is not actually real and not valuable, it's only how we measure it that is valuable. So, but I'm also not saying it's an either-or, it is an and. And this is really important so that we see the bigger picture and that we understand like when we enter into landscape, we like I always go in with my shoes off, for example, because I can feel with my feet the moisture, the temperature, the softness of the soil, a sense of you know what's going on there, or like it's the smell. How do you measure the smell? Like what like what what's going on in the soil, or what plants are there, or what's the interaction? Does it smell, you know, like it gives you a sense of what what plants or what ecology you're in? Uh, you know, I when I'm in Victoria where I grew up, there's a particular smell of the forest, and you get a sense of what the structure of that ecological system is. Whereas when I walk into a forest here in Southeast Queensland, there's a completely different smell. And so, like I you can't kind of really put any well, you possibly could, but as a permaculture designer, you're not, but it is a tool. My feet are a tool, my my nose is a tool, my how I've read the landscape before and all the experiences that I'm weaving together is is also a tool. So my memory, my um, you know, what does what do things feel like? What um how do people react when they're walking in this? When I walk in, I'm also noticing like where are people drawn to in that space? Where are the animals settling? Like, what trees there are the birds hanging out in? There is so much information. And how do you measure that? You measure that in a way of sitting in the landscape and noticing and taking the time, being there, using all of your senses, having a conversation with others that are using all their senses, and you know, so there are so many different ways. And and in actual fact, this is the you know, the per the first principle of permaculture, observe and interact, and and just that being in that space with this curiousness and openness to notice and to feel what's going on is so hugely valuable, and it's something that doesn't stop. You don't go, okay, well, I'm now measuring this to do my site analysis, and then I'll move on to the design. It's like it continues always and forever, and you're constantly learning and and um being in interaction. So, this so it's this difference between like what is the data, what is the information, and missing all that other stuff. And I I like to actually stay in all that other stuff, and then once I have a sense, go, well, I actually really need to find out more about this, and so then you take a deep dive, you do the reductionist scientific investigation on that particular bit, but then you bring it out and put it back into the context of the whole, and the whole is constantly expanding. And you know what? I ask lots of different experienced permaculture designers this, you know, and and I say experience because I I want to know what their process is. Like how, like, how is it that you know, when you go to a landscape, and I was asking this of Darren Dodie recently on one of the podcast conversations. So when you go to a site, like you've designed thousands of properties, when you go to a site, what's the first thing that you do? And and he basically said that. I just go and I get a feel of it. And you know, ask, you know, so many different people, and it's a similar thing. And so I it's not a woo-woo thing, it is actually the best response that you can possibly do because when you have a set of criteria, you know, check a checklist, or I've done these things, like like it's kind of a little bit like a high school assessment. Like if you if you if you do a project, an English project, and you meet the criteria, have they assessed how well you know? History and language and the world. No, you've only been assessed on the little bits of the boxes that are being ticked. And like this is learning, this is understanding, this is knowledge, this is relationship with the world, with others, with other species. And so by entering into this relationship and being in this contextual way of being in the world, with the intent of being there to help to shape things in a way that could become more regenerative, where there's a land that's been degraded, to get a sense of like where is where is the trauma in the landscape? Where are the things that we can begin with to start bring life back to and or to enhance um the you know life thriving there when it's been destroyed? And so I think it's this there is such an important, uh and we don't value this enough, and and it's kind of a hard thing to teach in a book as well. It's almost something like you need to walk with people and notice how they're walking in the landscape. And this is, I really love that um Dan Palmer's doing a film with um David Homgren um about reading landscape, and and this is something that you know we've put some some funds up to to support this film because I really believe that this is an important piece of the design process and the permaculture process. And uh, you know, and it and it links too with indigenous ways of knowing, it links with this idea of there's different ways of learning and knowing. And by watching and seeing how other people, what do they get drawn to? And so it kind of follows David as he gets drawn to you know, pick up a rock and quit ask questions about, and that gives him this depth of understanding and and not to be the expert. Yeah, like you you enter into the space as this, you know, curious, playful child-like being in a way, to start to get a sense of it. But um, yeah, so I you know, for me, permaculture design is so much more than just following a linear process or a you know, it's just science, or it's just this, or it's just that. And you know what? There is no one permaculture as well. Yeah, it lands completely differently in every single person because every single person has their own set of experiences and interests and connections. Permaculture is the patterning of how you think about how everything relates together, it's the patterning process. Drawing the map uh is just the beginning. The map is like a fixed thing in time that this is the best ideas that I have right now. But then as I start to apply it, even like to be honest, I have never seen a permaculture design that gets drawn, that ends up being exactly that on the ground, and five years later is still what you see on the paper. It's not, it's impossible. The idea of the map is to get the best possible thinking that you can, and then as you apply it, I hope that you would be adapting and changing and evolving it continuously and be in relationship with it. The principles are really there to help us to question. Oh, have we thought about how we can, you know, create less waste in this system and create a more circular system? Have we thought it's a it's definitely always about the questioning. Is this is this a way in which we're doing this helping to contribute to earth care? Yeah, you know, people care fair share. And and so it's not like do that, make this happen. It's is it? Could we possibly, you know, it's a it's a permaculture.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

I don't know, my experience so far has been exciting. Like you described your experience in Schumacher College. Like I feel like when I talk to other um the people in this community, I feel like I found my place and I understand and I feel invigorated and like happy about life, and I feel like I know what to do next. Um, and but it's also messy because I have come across some of the most uncomfortable moments in human relationships also through this. But, you know, part of the whole thing is that you've got to keep working, you know, with those relationships. Uh, you can't just disconnect and be separate, you know, it's we're all living in this place together and we have to find that middle ground. So I have found my permaculture journey so far quite challenging because uh a lot of my learnt behaviors and ideas about the world um are challenged, and it's made me think I have done things that are wrong in the past, and that's painful. So it's an interesting journey, but it's definitely very um, it's been very incredible. So yeah, I don't know if that makes any sense to you what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

It makes total sense, and you know, I think it's hard when we bump up against these different interpretations as well, and and the triggering that happens. And I think um the triggering that happens within ourselves or in our relationships when we when we use the word, because often it can be, you know, there is a one, there's a deep threat, I think, in terms of doing things differently means I need to change. And so sometimes, you know, when you find that it's like, well, I'm not ready to change it, so I don't want anyone telling me I should change. So, you know, I think it there's there's that element in it as well. And also the guilt.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Yeah, the guilt's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

No, like, you know, I you know, I don't think that, you know, we ever need to tell people, okay, you've got to do this and you've got to do this. If you're a permaculture person, this is what you should do. Like, no, go away, go away. You know, I think what we need to do is to to live it, to experiment, to share our story of how we're applying it in all the messiness and in all the imperfections. And, you know, there is no right or wrong way of doing it. There it is all in the experimentation. And so I think the thing is that um, you know, as you're sharing, whatever stage you're in, and I'm saying this to anybody, not just to you, that you know, begin. The beginning is the most important part, and the and also the the way of thinking and relating to it. So what is on the ground may not to someone else look like what they expect uh a permaculture system to look like. And and on that thing of expectations, I think we should actually throw out this concept of expectations because uh you know it ends up getting you into a point of conflict. I know that from living in an eco-village, you've sometimes you know, people expect to come here and see certain things or to be living here and for stuff to be delivered and happening. It's like let go of the expectations and enter into a space of actually creating and unfolding and asking interesting questions and and just being. Um, that's one side. So as you're sharing your story, it could be one little herb garden or a pot on the thing, but as you describe what you're doing to share the love and the awe of nature and what you're discovering, and to explore how the possibilities of entering to the space of growing even some food and how the taste of that, so this multi-sensorial exploration of it, and to to link that, and this is something that um Helena Norberg Hodge talks about a lot, and I'm just about to release a four-part series with her, and you may well have come across the movie to put Helena in context in terms of my thinking as well. Um, is during Fritzhoff Capra's course at Schumacher College back in 1992, he invited Helena to come and do four days of teaching about what it was she's working on. And she'd just released at that point her book Ancient Futures. And so she came there, and I remember I was like, I was on the floor on all the cushions, like you were just sort of learning in all different lovely, comfortable spaces instead of the lecture rooms, and there she was talking about this and sharing in such a heart-filled way. I I don't know what happened to me, but something in my heart shifted, and there was this like I can I can still feel it. It was like there was this ball of fire, and it was like and you know, this is coming again from someone who's sort of totally pragmatic upbringing, a very scientific, rational thing, like like what is going on here? Like there was this burning, and I just felt my whole body fill and activate. And I went up to her at the end of these couple of days and I said, Can I volunteer with you? And she's and she said, Of course. And so uh with Stefan Harding and his partner, um, so Stefan Harding was the who works with James, who works with James Lovelock, who I think is still alive, he's 100 and something, um, the guy theory, and so he works on deep ecology and guy theory, and uh his his partner and and I all went and visited and work with with Helena and stay there for the entire summer up in Ladarc working on on um you know um counter-development work, looking at uh the ecological ways of living, learning from the indigenous culture there, and you know, so that transformed my life. So yeah, I was at the end of those months there with all this ecological science, worldview thinking, design, and then it was kind of like the head, heart, and hands, just kaboom, and then I was I was on my way home and I was just like tears running down my face. I didn't want to leave that place. I was thinking, what like how what do I do with this? Like if I land back in Melbourne, which is where I'm from, I how do I reintegrate all of this? And I I remember landing, and it took me quite some time. I just I rode my bike, I gardened, I sat with it, I played music, I just sat. And it was then that I went, right, permaculture. This is this is the way that I respond with a with a frame that I can relate to, that is a contemporary model that embraces this sort of ecological scientific perspective. It it is design. I come from a landscape design background, it integrates indigenous ways of knowing, it values regenerative approaches, it's all of these things together. It's a whole systems approach to one planet living that is practical, that is accessible, that can be myceliated around the world. It's not like you have to enter into this institution and pay massive amounts of money. Like, yes, you might pay teachers to teach you and feed you while you're learning, but that's you know, it's it's accessible. And uh, and so I so that's when I came here to to Christa Waters to do a permaculture design course. And um, it was actually where I met my husband, Evan. Um he was doing the course as well. Um, but anyway, so Helena, going back to Helena, he um she her way of thinking has always been kind of like this compass for me in terms of her political, her her um economic analysis that like she just slices through so much bump that we get. She has real clarity, doesn't she? Such clarity and such a consistent voice. So she's been doing this for five decades as well, and just noticing what's going on and talking to world leaders around this. I mean, she's won an alternative Nobel Peace Prize, she's won the Goy Peace Prize, she's you know, um she's phenomenal. She just lives down here in Byron Bay um now. Um, and so in these conversations, I've just recorded these conversations and I'm hoping to release them in the next little while. So we talk about the global economy, we've talked about the food system, we talk about community, and then we talk about big picture activism, which is what where I got on to talking about Helena because what we do, and this is one of her criticisms of of um of permaculture possibilities, but not actually what it is. So she says, Sometimes I see people head towards permaculture, which is the natural response. It is a perfect response because it does look at localization, it looks at local food systems, it is all the things that we talk about, and it is the natural response. But don't just go and do that and hide away.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

You know, we are in this global urgent situation where we need to have people who have that understanding, who have that capability to be doing it locally, connecting with communities, and then sharing that story with the world. So it doesn't matter how far you are along the journey, but the fact that you are on that journey and that you are talking about your journey, that you're talking about your decisions and your choices and what doing this action, how that impacts the global economy, what this action does in terms of relocalizing the food system, what this action does in terms of helping to create a different level of understanding about our psyche, you know, like it is, it doesn't matter how far you're along the journey, whether that looks like a fully complete permaculture system or not, the permaculture is in our minds. Yeah. And so if we are entering into this space with a permaculture mind.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

And it's like a questioning mind, isn't it? It's just questioning.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

It's a questioning mind, exactly. And so what it manifests on the ground is a reflection of like the journey or where you are on the journey. And sometimes it's not even necessarily visible. You don't have to have a full permaculture farm to be practicing permaculture. If you are, you know, your work is about you know supporting local community food system, for example, or it's about you know rethinking um architecture, you know, it could be manifested in so many different ways, but the most important thing is that it's the intent, it's the questioning, and it's the conversations. So, like what you're doing, you're opening up conversations with a whole lot of different people to explore what it means. And when the people listen to these conversations that you're recording, it then creates a ripple. And the ripple creates waves, and so it may have just been one drop that you started, but you started that drop with an intent and a way of being that it embodies this um this beautiful way of thinking and an intent to be a positive um contributor in the world. And I I've started changing my metaphors now from you know the ripples and the waves, which is a very kind of physical, you know, approach to thinking about a living system metaphor, which is the myceliating process. And often what we see is that um, well, it's the unseen part of the world, you know, it's it's what's going on, but actually supports everything. So there's this underground network. Um, and this is what I actually think is going on, and I feel too when I talk with with Helena, because she's been doing this for 50 years as well, and I, you know, I've been doing it for like 30 odd. It's everywhere. Doesn't matter where you go, from a refugee settlement in Uganda to the rooftops of New York. If you mention permaculture or this way of thinking, it's there, and there are examples that are popping up. And so it's this, and that and people talk together. And the more that we talk together, the more that we enrich this web of connections that is going on underneath, and it feeds those little things that pop up. And so these little projects and are examples or your garden or my place or you know, the architect's place, or the rooftop garden, or the refugee programs, these are like little mushrooms that are popping up. Yeah, and then when the mushrooms pop up, like these out of this mycelial web that connects around the whole globe, um, when they mature, they they send out spores. And how many spores come out of mushrooms? Like billions. And so it just kind of lands. There's no, it's not like, okay, it goes from here to here to here. It's um, it's um, you can measure where it's gonna go. It's just kind of yeah, and then it and then it but it's gently.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

I have I have I'm putting my hand up like I'm in a class because I am in a class, but I did have a comment, right? Because I listened also part to uh a little bit of your conversation with Luby McNamara, who focuses on so cocial um permaculture, I guess. And she, this just relates to your um your mushroom example. So she was saying that going back to this discussion of patterning, so we are in these series of patterns, and so this pandemic has been the ultimate pattern disruptor, right? And so just going back to these kind of metaphors, think about um, you know, there's the mycelium all under the under the um soil that you can't see, right? And then you have this rainstorm, which, you know, um fills the soil with water, and then you see all these mushrooms pop up, right? So the pandemic, in a way, is like the rainstorm that's come down. And this mycelium's been sort of like for all these decades, sort of just spreading. And all these mushrooms are popping up at this opportune moment because this pattern's disrupted and people are seeing their perspectives are able to change, and they're having that moment in time where they they can pause and observe. And almost this pandemic is like an initiation into permaculture for the globe because it's like stop and observe and interact.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Um, but yeah, just a comment on yeah, the patterns and the your I think it's I think it's a really interesting observation because um, you know, another thing in learning about a systems thinking from a scientific perspective, and and I I've got Fritzop's book here. This is his this is his textbook that comes out of Cambridge University Press, uh Systems View of Life. And he actually has a course that's based on this too, which is um called um the Capra course. And I run um, I I was one of his beta students for it when he did the online one, and now so his online course now happens twice a year. And and I I run something called, well, I don't run it, I work with this young group of people around the world called PermaYouth, and sort of it's emerged out of the programs that we run, and now the young people are running it everywhere. I keep inviting them to come and take part of courses like this. So, you know, I I wish I'd had access to this stuff when I was a teenager, would have, would have, you know, I mean, I missed a whole lot of years of going, I don't think me too. Um, so you know, systems view of life, working with Nora Bates, and uh, you know, I invite young people to come and do the permaculture course with me as well, because you know, you get the design thing, you get the science thing, you get the you know, the ways of knowing, all these different and and Luby's offered her course too as well to them.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

But anyway, within um Ridgeov's course, um, he talks about this process of of disturbance. Is it's actually how um life happens and evolution happens, and it's not this competitive force, it's actually this sort of dance. And he uses a lot of, you know, even though he's a scientist, he uses a lot of language which comes from from the arts or spirituality in a way to describe what's happening in science, and this point of disturbance. And that that is how it's not just like we're going along and okay, well, you know, the next generation comes and it sort of splits, and next generation comes, and life just kind of gradually dribbles along. There is some kind of disturbance that happens, and how how life responds to that disturbance determines what like the next um like and it just goes in these waves and bursts, it's not just this sort of continual process. So disturbance is really important, but disturbance, you know, how do we continue these processes of disturbance and in a in a peaceful and respectful way, you know, from a social perspective? How do we continue that and just create the disturbance either in our own lives and in our own communities, but in a way that doesn't create that reaction that you were talking about before, where it's like a pushing away or it's a, you know, often people talk in a like a more aggressive way when they're feeling a threat, it's like that fight-flight sort of thing. To create gentle disturbances. And you know, one of the things that I think is one of the easiest ways to do that is to, and we started talking about this before, to to live it and to create different examples and to invite people. And so if if you have this opportunity to invite people into a different way, it creates a disturbance in them. It's like, oh hang on, this is different, there's something different in here. Like a disturbance doesn't have to be a massive thing, it can be a minor shift that happens when you kind of come into contact with something that's not quite what you expect. It looks kind of like what it's expected to be, but it's it's not quite, it's different. And noticing the differences and asking what those are and helping to unpack some of what those differences are. That's why I think permaculture educators are probably one of the most valuable people in the world right now, people who In whatever realm, and I'm not talking just standing there and teaching a PDC, could like you're a permaculture educator sharing these conversations. You know, the guy who's the architect is a permaculture educator as he's designing with his clients that he's weaving in permaculture design. Each of those people are actually shifting and changing the you know the dominant paradigm through these um sort of kind of a gradual process of of little disturbances that kind of add up into something that is quite quite different. And I just on the point of you know, like education, I I often run camps, I kind of stopped a little bit during um the COVID times, but I bring uh high school students here um to my eco village, and they they get to have an immersive experience. And so I keep in mind my experience, like this. I was sorry, I'm just gonna segue a minute. Um, we we have a last as part of the permacology educators program, we have a film club, and the students pick the films and then we explore them. And last night we had um deep ecology, and so we're looking at how deep ecology relates to permaculture, and and there was this cycle, and it and um Stefan Harding from Schumacher College, who's the deep ecology fellow, was explaining how um deep ecology is basically like there's deep uh deep experience, so this immersive process of embodying it and getting to feel it. There's deep questioning, which is what we've been talking about, and then there's deep commitment, where you have immersed yourself in it so much and you've questioned so much that it just becomes part of you to be deeply committed to to the natural world, to be one of the players who's who wants to bring something positive into world. So this sort of deepening. And so this is kind of what's behind Shoe Market College, and it's what's behind the kind of education programs I run, it's what's behind the kind of camps that I run for school. So we bring people here and we and we just kind of we have a curriculum, a loose curriculum, but mostly it's about we do a deep time walk along the river, you know, we've got people hands in the saw, we we have really interesting conversations. Conversations are so underrated. Conversations are one of the most powerful things for change. Um, and then at the end, you know, there's a reflective circle, and and I remember at one of these sessions, one girl said, Do you know what's most amazing? Is that you're only an hour or so away from the city, but yet there's this whole other civilization that's here. I just have a nice straight face, and I said, That's so interesting. You're right, isn't it? There's something really quite different. It looks the same, like my house doesn't look that different from a standard house, and I've done that on purpose so that you can see it and relate to it as a house that you could possibly live in, but yet the way that the water systems, the energy systems, the food systems, the way like all of it is different, and it's actually looking at how we can live in this way, but yet have say 80-90% less impact, so we can live a one-planet way of life, and you know, and so it's this thing like it takes that time, it takes time, you know, it takes the time to be in an immersive experience to start to notice, but then not just to just to notice and walk away from that. It's like, why did I notice that? What is it about that? So having the conversations and the possibilities to explore what that means, and so for me, you know, those sorts of experiences are so valuable. And then I get students who come back, you know, like I've been doing this long enough. I get students who come back, they've they've they come back to me like 10, 15 years later, and they say, after that camp, like I completely changed what I wanted. I was going to go into business and I ended up going and doing, you know, ecological design studies. And and then someone else came back to me recently and said, I ended up going to university and I studied law and all the things that you know my parents wanted me to do. So then I went to start working and I just feel so empty. And I think now is the time that I want to cut start coming and like can I come and volunteer with you? And can I come and and and I say yes, of course, because you know, this thing that I experienced when I was younger, when I something like that, oh that heart opening, that awareness for me, and I had the opportunity to go and work directly with the people that had inspired me, not just to read their books and to whatever, but to there was something, and I think there's like that's part of my commitment, like this deep commitment to not just to the planet, but to people who want to be in this space as well, because it takes it takes time and it takes feeling supported in the process of doing that, and having someone that you can ask questions of and not have to feel like it's a student teacher thing where you're just like, have I got the right answer? You know, it's like let's just explore this together, you know. Oh, that's it's I more the more I know, the more I know I need to know, and the more I'm reaching out to, you know, like this it's a it's a lifelong journey of learning, and you know, particularly for people in in countries like ours where we have been so disconnected from our deep connections with place and with community and culture and the underlying trauma of you know, displacement of indigenous people. Like there's so much in there that I think permaculture can really help us to unpack a lot of that stuff and find ways to reconnect and to be in relation, right relationship with this place and with um the people of this land and to be people of this land and not think, well, we are just the colonizers, so we we don't have to really kind of do the work. We actually do, yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Well, I I've really noticed um something that I do really love about the permaculture community is that they are so encouraging and welcoming, and it is I guess I can only describe it as like I'm swimming with the current rather than against it. Whenever I want every ever since I started doing these projects, I've been involved with people in the permaculture permaculture community, and it's like this self-propelling force. Like you just get going and then it goes to this thing and then it goes to that thing, and everyone's helping each other, everyone's very open to, you know, like to really just doing a little bit to help the other people. It's so fantastic. And I did have a comment that I wanted to just jump back to because I thought it was um relevant. It was just when you were talking about the patterning and like how do we continue those subtle disruptions um in a gentle way so that we can keep propelling this change forward. And something that um came up in your discussion with Luby was that um changes of patterning are really tiring for people. And that's why people, I think, in at the moment in the world, like everyone's on edge, like they're really tired, like so much disruption of our of our patterns. You know, it's good because it allows for the change, but it's tiring. And I think something just to keep in mind about perpetuating the subtle disruptions for change, but um doing it in a gentle way is just allowing for rest periods for people to have the time to absorb the information at their own pace and then act on it at their in their own pace. And it's really hard because it's this like juggle, because we're we're in this decade, this critical decade, where we have to do all this stuff. So it's very easy to act from that place of fear and to start trying to push that change really fast, like do this, do this, do this. But we can't actually do that because I don't think that that's going to work. We have to lean into that trust and that abundance mentality of like things will be as they should. You do your bit, you allow the the rest, you act with kindness and compassion, and things will will go as they should. I I just guess that's my my comment. Yeah, too.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Yeah, I think I'm so glad that you said it and you've articulated it beautifully. And you know, as you were mentioning that, I was thinking about that rest period that I mentioned when I came back home. Like I didn't actually know what to do. I knew I needed to do something, but I didn't know what my next step was. So I sat with it and I nourished, I composted my soul, you know, like I put compost on on, you know, you know, when you see some land that's kind of in trauma, like you you add compost to it, you you nourish it. You know, I was in this spot of going, I don't know what I'm supposed to do, you know, and really quite lost, feeling like I was full, but also empty at the same time. And so at that point, it was time for nourishment, it was time for that, you know, conceptual um compost to be added. And so we need to put ourselves into that because if we're all hurting and and disrupted and anxious and fearful, what are the solutions that we will be sharing into the world? Will they come with a sparkle of love and compassion? Or will they come with this sort of constricted feeling of tightness and fear that is entering into every cell? And like, you know, if you think about the you know, like quantum theory, like the the cellular level, there is something shifting and changing when you're in that flow state, and when you when you're speaking with that ease and that feeling of being nourished and that what's coming out will nourish, it is so different. You know, every word that comes out of your mouth, every the way that it comes out, the the sound of it, the the shape kind of goes out of this little bubble, and then where it lands, and if it comes out about like we've got to disrupt the system, you know, like that. It's like it's like I've got to put away a phone and a blanket. It's like, but if you say, you know, like we really need to explore how we can, you know, disrupt the, yeah, it's different, it's the same word that I just said, but it it can kind of blobble out as this little word bubble and land differently. And so ideas are powerful, thoughts, conversations, opening up with a you know, like a heart full of possibilities, and to really feel like how we can add compost to all different aspects of our life, our relationships, you know, the more that we add beautiful compost to nourish the soil, the soil being the foundation, that all it's like, you know, when you look at a in your garden and you see the plant is not doing so well, or something's going wrong. Like our tendency is to go and try and fix that. Or what can I do to spray on that plant, or what can I do to do to that plant? Whereas that that plant is in relationship, it's kind of like an indicator of what's going on in this big world underneath. So we need to tend to the bigger picture. We need to tend to that and to compost that and to bring more life, bring more context into it, bring more diversity, add friends to it. You know, the trees don't like to be alone, they like to be in community, and so maybe this same sort of thing, like add we tend to ourselves, but we also tend to the community, you know, like the community in which we're situated a nourishing one. And if we're not feeling that, like how can we find more nourishment in a community setting? Because we never we're never alone, we can never do it alone. These sorts of things that we that we're actually absolutely needing to do in this decade and more to come. And so it's finding that group of people, and you know, it may or may not be the people that are in your household or next door to you. You know, it can be a locational community, but it also may be a community of practice that is global. And I find great nourishment from um conversations like these and conversations with people around the world coming together to explore and and then because what happens is that helps us to land it, to calm down, to feel more in our own selves. And then when we step back out into the world, into the local area that may not be as kind of as friendly to the ideas, we enter notice how you enter differently when you feel this deep sense of connectedness and support with the community of practice. That's so true, yes.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

Oh, I love it. I I also draw a lot of um yeah, solace from these kind of conversations, just uniting like with the like-minded and people. And it gives me a lot of um hope, I think these conversations do, because you think you just can feel it, you can feel that that energy, like you you feel like you're bouncing these ideas around and you've got so much creative energy, and you think, wow, you know, imagine a whole population with that energy. Like um, so something I did want to to ask you about was that um in your um discussion with Fritzov, you um talked about the Capricorse because so he said he's been for decades, he's been um researching and and developing this body of um information. And he was saying that he's very happy to create this bridge for the young generations of people who, these creatives who have this passion and these ideas, but but like me, I mean, I only really came to this point of thinking when I had my daughter Margot 18 months ago. And so I'm so new to this journey. There's so much to learn, and and it's like I just sometimes feel like can I ever read enough books to catch up? And so basically what I um I'm feeling that draw for myself that I need to go down that course of um learning, potentially doing that Capra course, I think, because I just feel I just feel like I need to do it. Feels like something that the information that I need right now. Um and I was wondering just if you could tell me a little bit about what the course looks like, because I you facilitate part of the course, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 58:13

Well, um, so there's a number of different courses that I direct and engage people in. One is the Permaculture Educators program, which is the one that I I run and I host, and I weave in the work of Nora and Fritchov and as the foundation for learning about permaculture and then becoming a permaculture educator. And it's and it's very much bringing in all of this way of knowing and understanding and shaping um our pathways together in a global community. So there's people on six continents. So that's one part. Then there's the perma youth network, which is a group of young people, they're more teenagers who are connecting and exploring these ideas together, and they also have direct connection and relationship with people like Fritchov and with Nora Bateson, and and I'm there all the time, accessible, and we, you know, people like Luby come in and talk with them, and you know, and um Costa's come and join the show.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

I love Costa Costa's is everywhere. He's for you know how you said Fritz Fritzhoff is doing the the forwards in all the books that you're like reading. Costa's doing all the forwards in all the books that I'm reading.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

Yeah, and so you know, and it it this this is this community of practice, and this is my community of practice. All these people who are working it at this level, and I think all of these people would love to share um in as many different ways as possible because you know, Fritchov was saying, you know, what he's 80 or something, and he's saying, I, you know, I would I'm seeing what's happening with all the youth movements and young people around the world who are wanting to step up into this. And you know, I would love to share, you know, this depth of understanding of you know where all this has come from, what is the scientific basis that you can step on, rather than being saying, oh, well, that's just different and that's woo. Like, no, no, you're actually standing on the forefront. What you're doing is kind of the pointy edge of it's the leading edge of what is actually needed in the world now, and this is why. And so he would like to kind of be there to offer input. And so, what one of the things that I'm doing is yes, you can take like his course, which gives you the deep. So it's called the system view of life as well, and it's based on this book, but it's a way that you can hear him speak it and then be in conversation. We have study groups that so it's 12 weeks of lectures where they're pre-recorded lectures, and then there's forums that are you can have conversations with people around the world, and then there's um possibilities too for having meetups and questions with him, and then also I'm there as a as kind of a host of a series of conversations, and and I've chosen particularly with young people because that's because I have teenagers and I'm passionate about connecting in that way, and so um that's that course. And then Nora Bateson has another course that she does as well and in a similar way, but it's more live and interactive and lots of conversation globally, and we continue on these warm data conversations. The thing that I'm really interested in looking at, and I might I might actually ask you the question back what would it look like if we could create a connection between you know um young, you know, it's like youth movements or you know, people like yourselves who are really passionate about knowing more about this, with this kind of I don't know, council of elders for not for want of a better word. What would be the best way of connecting? Like I'm my initial thought was well, maybe I could host, like I'm gonna start hosting next year, maybe conversations with people like Helena, um, Fritjoff, Satish, Kuma, Jeremy, and have a few of them together and then have people so we can actually be in conversation with them, and they can be in conversation with each other too. So it's not just a delivery model, yeah, but there is this possibility of engagement.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:00

And I don't know what could it look like in the it's it's I think that that is what is missing right now is that there are so many movements and platforms that are happening and doing fantastic stuff, but they're kind of not connected. And what I think is needed is like a connecting facilitator of communication and just to smoothen everything so everyone can come to one place, to like a hub and and make sure that we're all like using our resources in the best way, because if we all can collaborate, I think that our power would be so much greater than operating in isolation. How would that look like? I mean, you always want one answer, but there is never one answer, right? So can we get away from technology? Probably not. It's probably going to have to be online. It's probably going to have to be a different mode of communication, I guess. Um you would have presentations. Maybe you could have like Helena, I know, does a lot of, I think she does like some meetups on Zoom with like different people in there. Um, and you've got Catherine Ingram who does her Zoom meetings where there's people dropping in, they're they're in conversation. Um, I think that these kind of dialogues are really good. So perhaps um, if it was online, having yeah, the ability for people to interact. So I guess you could have a few different things. You could have like presentations, you could have those Zoom interactive sessions, maybe you could have sort of chat forums, um, maybe you could have annual meetups, um, some kind of a directory with like goalposts of like, this is me, I'm a creative, this is my strength, this is what I want to do. Put it into the system, and then other people can find you in that system. You know, that's just some random thoughts. Like I can think about it more for you, but that's um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Awesome, thank you. And that that kind of fits with a lot of the different ideas that I've been sort of toying around with. So that's really wonderful. And um, and I think, you know, some of these, I think it's important to have all, you know, it's not just this or that, you know, there's there's different layers and levels that you can kind of interact with, you know, depending on where you are and what time zone you are. And and I also think you know, I'm starting to think about different places that we could host these, and so there may be different places around the world where they're hosted, so there's different possibilities of connection.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:27

That would be good because I do think that the in-person um is it is really that that's where that ultimate connection happens and those sparks really can fly, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Um yeah, and so for example, here now we um at Crystal Waters, for example, the eco village where I live, um, we have this center now. We have finally we have actually really awesome internet. One young man who lives here, who's grown up, he'd gone and worked, I think, in Silicon Valley for a while, and he'd come back and he said, I want to live and work here, but I can't because there's no proper internet. So he's put out this, he's rolled out like optic fiber throughout all the crystal waters so it facilitates learning exchange and international connections as well. And so we can have at our Ramd Earth center in the middle, you know, be embedded within an eco-village, but connect in with people around the world to zoom in to Fritzhoff, for example, and have a local conversation, then go out and do some gardening or walk in nature and then zoom in with Helena, for example, or maybe she's not that far, so she could we could bring her up, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

There are these possibilities, and so that's kind of some of the things that I'm thinking of, as well as these regular online conversations and and forums. Um, but yeah, I'm totally, you know, it's the question I'm throwing out there. If anyone wants to get in touch with me and say, Look, you know, this is what I reckon would be awesome, because I feel like the potential is now. There's a lot of people who are in their 70s and their eighties or nineties who have been doing this for a very long time and are really very keen to share and to enrich what's happening. Yeah. In the like so it's this intergenerational and cross-cultural conversation that needs to happen because we're all in this together, you know, one planet living and working towards, you know, uh common future, it requires us all to kind of connect in this way.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Well, I think it sounds fantastic, and I'm happy to, yeah, I'm I'll just keep thinking about it. I'll let you know if I have any other ideas. Um and so I've got I've got to pick my kids up in about nine minutes. So um from my mum. But to to finish the interview, what a fantastic discussion. I just love like how your brain works, and you know, you're just the epitome of like kindness, and so nice to have a chat with you. Um, so how I finish every interview is to ask um for you to just describe because I think that um the first step of change is the imagination and visioning how things could be different. So I like to ask um every guest to to vision for me how you would like the world to look in 2050 because that's kind of on the other side, like that's past the critical decade. If we're gonna hit tipping points they've they've tipped already or not tipped, so 2050, what would you like to see in 2050?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

Great question. In my mind, how it plays out is that it's a permaculture future. You know, I really in in terms of a positive future, I imagine it being that way that we've restored forests and water systems, and that we're living more localized lives for our basic needs and a deep connection with our place and our community, but that we still have a global sense, and so that we are using uh our energy systems incredibly wisely to do like essential travel, and we're connecting in that way, but that our basic needs are coming from our local economy and that uh the bioregions have been restored, and uh, you know, it's a very simple um you know the thing is that it's a fought question as well, because there's so much creativity and innovation that we don't even know about yet. But in my mind, that would be the basis, and then whatever we layer on that is is add-on, and there's going to be so much more, but that we are based in this way of thinking and knowing that is deeply nature-informed and respectful of place and bi-region, and that we are working together to support this one planet way of being, whatever that may look like, that is nourishing of all life and nourishing of planetary systems.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:40

Ah, let's let's go there. That sounds like well, guys, that was our our discussion, and yeah, I loved it. I hope you loved it as much as I did. Um, just some some real deep dives there. And yeah, it was just just fantastic um to chat with somebody who um just has such a powerful vision for the future and is doing such incredible work in the world. And um Morak was really interested in in your comments too, like with that mention of the um climate kind of, I guess, hub thing that she was talking about. Um, if you have any ideas of of how that could look in a way that, you know, may work really well and help to unite people and just make this movement more powerful, um, get in touch with me or with Morag and um let us know what you think because like, you know, more minds, like the better the ideas. Brainstorming is such a powerful tool. So yeah, just let me know if you have any brain waves and and I'll um I'll pass it on to Morag. So um next week, uh so exciting, another girl crush of mine. I'm interviewing Brenna Quinlan, and um, it was such a cool chat because we talked about um she's just moved over to Western Australia where she's basically starting from scratch, like her own um permaculture property. She um Brennan Quinlan, just in case you haven't heard of her, she's a very um awesome artist, and she does a lot of very powerful um art activism for the climate movement. And you would have seen it, it's everywhere. Like she just gets hundreds of shares of every piece of artwork that she does, and that she just has a really clever knack for simplifying these really complex messages and and packaging it up so that it's easy to share and to comprehend and also makes the um the possibilities, you know, showcases the joyfulness of them. So yeah, she's she's really cool. We um we talk about a new property, we talk about where she used to live at Meliadoro and her journey like through South America, like biking and for six years learning and woofing on farms, permaculture properties. Um, and then we also talk about um her backstory of how she and her um partner Charlie McGee, who uh has the awesome band Formidable Vegetable, which is also um an activism kind of platform. Uh this lovely love story of how they met. So yeah, great chat. And uh I really hope you tune in for that one because you'll you'll like it. And we've got some some cool stuff in there. So yeah, I hope you're having a nice week and um I look forward to to chatting with you soon. Let me know how you're going and and your feedback, and yeah, we'll catch you up next week. Okay, bye guys,