Big things. Little things.
Conversations with inspiring community leaders about the big things they’re doing and the little things that make them who they are.
Big things. Little things.
Hannah Churton - The Worm Monger
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An episode from the 2021 archives featuring Hannah Churton (The Worm Monger), Australian composting educator, worm farming advocate, and environmental workshop facilitator.
Hi, I'm Sophie. Welcome to Big Things Little Things, a podcast series where I sit down with inspiring change makers to discuss the big things they're doing, the little things that make them who they are, and together we vision pathways towards a better future. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording, the Gethable people of the Bungelung Nation, and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging. Hi guys, welcome back to week 15. Today I'm chatting with Hannah Jordan. You may have seen her on Instagram under the handle of The Worm Monger. So she, as the name suggests, is an aficionado on All Things Worm Farms. So that's where our chat goes today. But we also touch on some other stories about Hannah's life. So Hannah's a really interesting person. She um has a legal background. She was a public servant and diplomat and worked on Australia's international development and foreign policy. So she lived in a lot of different places around the world. And what's quite cool about that is that uh while she was living all around the world, she was also smuggling worms into other countries, as you will soon find out. And worm farming in the cupboard and on the roof. Um she um started doing uh program um work as the worm monger way to sort of spread awareness of the worm farming that she was doing and how that's sort of a really important part of um food waste management because food waste as we discussed this interview is a really uh big contributor to um again. And that's something that we can all act upon in our own time. So you can follow along on Instagram um and look at the story and what she's been updated. And um also I think I've got consulting work through uh um working the way among it's also getting a policy and regulatory framework that identifying opportunities and various frameworks and very good things that one more year to go. So lovely and um just awesome. I think that with a friend, and that friend happened to be telling me how I can learn that was helpful because I definitely want to start doing that, especially considering that new home we don't have a white management except so uh at the moment, you know, we've just been bringing in the compost to put it out rental compost because we're still sort of doubling up for another month or two. Um with our rental there and still harvesting the vegetables rent hand, but I'm looking to try and get everything out of hand. And so I won't find it on the agenda because I need somewhere to like make scraps. Um because uh I mean I don't even know what else I do with the doctorate, you know. So um yeah, so I'm gonna look at getting a bathtub. Thank you for having suggestions. Anyway, so I hope you uh you enjoy this conversation. And if you do enjoy it, I'd love if you could um leave a review on Apple Podcasts and um share on social media, share with a friend because it's important information and um it's really great if you can help to get the word out. Okay, thanks guys, enjoy.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so uh I'm Hannah. I'm I'm also the wormmonger to to some. Um my I guess my alter ego is is the wormmonger, and that is because I am a purveyor of worms, I guess you might call me. I I do a lot of worm farming, which is why I'm the wormmonger. And I I guess I I view myself as a bit of a an educator and uh an advocate or an activist for returning our food scraps to the soil. Uh professionally, I've also taken my wormmongering next level. I've started a PhD this year which looks at um returning our food or turning our food waste, I should say, into something of value. It's about valorising what would otherwise go to landfill. Uh I'm also a mum of two small girls, which is a huge driving aspect of um what I do, uh, because I myself am particularly concerned about food waste going to landfill and the bigger climate picture because food waste creates uh greenhouse emissions. Uh, quite significant levels of greenhouse emissions, actually, which I think the broader population doesn't really appreciate when it comes to food waste, just how significant food waste can be when it comes to contributing to climate change. And I guess I want to model for my girls what um what we need to be doing into the future to reverse the effects of climate change and to to create a better world, something that they can love and enjoy as much as I have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Can can I ask? So um, in terms you seem to have like this broader concern about climate change, which you've then narrowed down into a specific area of interest for you that you're an activist in. So could we take a step back? Um, and I've I'm interested to ask when was it that you uh you became conscious of like the reality of the threat that climate change poses to humanity in general? So when when was it that that sort of became a clear problem to you? Because I guess I I spent a long time being, you know, kind of head in the sand or just unaware like of how serious it was. So and then I sort of had a moment where I became more conscious of it. And I wondered is did you have a moment or moments that stick out in your mind?
SPEAKER_01I think if I cast my mind back, there are there are times, even when I was a young child uh during primary school where we did modules of work around climate, and that for me was the first time that climate became a conscious thing in my head that we needed to be aware of. At that time, it was all around the hole in the ozone layer, and as a young kid, I had quite a bit of anxiety around this hole in the ozone layer and how we were going to fix it. Uh I think since then I haven't really had that aha moment that you speak of. It's just been something that has uh cumulatively developed in the way that I live my life. As a child, I grew up on the coast. I lived in um small town coastal New South Wales, and my backyard was the beach, and nature was a huge part of my upbringing. But I wouldn't have thought that uh protecting nature or thinking about climate more broadly was at the forefront of my mind or something that I was particularly concerned about. Uh and again, coming into adulthood, I became quite focused on my career, I guess. And again, it wasn't really in the forefront of my mind in my 20s or even into my 30s. So um, I think it's just a thing that's always been bubbling away in the background for me, and in more recent years it's come to the fore. So the worm farming piece was something that I kind of brought from my my childhood. My parents were worm farmers, and so it was just this thing that happened in our household. Um, and I so it was a very normal thing to happen in households, and um it that was something then that I carry carried into my adult life when I moved out of home. Uh, and when I started my professional career, I was very nomadic. I I worked in international development, so I spent a lot of time living or traveling abroad, and I used to try and take things from life at home to recreate homes. And one of those things for me was the worm farm. Uh, and or I guess more broadly, it was creating a little garden patch which created my home in wherever I was living, and it reminded me of home. It provided it was earth, it was ground, it was grounding, and all of those things helped me build a home in the new place that I was. And worm farming for me was just a very, very natural part of building that little piece of space.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. And so what are some of the um the countries and the housing um different housing modes that you've actually done worm farming in?
SPEAKER_01Well, the first place was Solomon Island. I actually uh uh I smuggled some complex worms into Solomon Island. Um I'm not sure whether that's a proud moment or whether that's something I should be lawyers at the absolute worst.
SPEAKER_00Don't worry, I could tell you a few things about myself. Don't worry, we're the biggest crooks of them all.
SPEAKER_01I do have a legal background. So I fall into that category and I so anyway, I smuggled these worms in and I kept a worm farm in my wardrobe there because uh in the tropics it's it's very hot, it's very humid. They may have survived outside, but it just seems a safe bed to keep these worms in the spare wardrobe. And there they lived for a good couple of years while I uh fed them my food scraps and fed my tropical fruit in my garden with my uh worm castings and worm juice. Nice. So that was the first place. Um I've lived in a couple of places which were not particularly uh amenable to to worm farming, uh Afghanistan being one of those. I didn't um keep a worm farm there, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00Uh is that because if you smuggled the worms into Afghanistan, you would end up in some kind of frightening prison.
SPEAKER_01Well, potentially. But um, you know, I lived in a shipping container.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Um, I ate it a mess. Uh and so uh it it really just wasn't a conducive environment to work farming as much as I would have liked to make it one. Um it just it just didn't work. Fair enough. Uh but then I moved to to Tel Aviv and uh there I uh you know my my real longing for home and sense of building a home really kept kicked in when I moved to Tel Aviv and uh I really at that point was making quite a conscious effort for the first time, I think, to to build this space which was home. And um I had a little a rooftop terrace which I I planted quite an amazing little garden in. And Tel Aviv the the climate is is really wonderful for growing, so everything just grew. Awesome. And I had my little worm farm on the side, which I it's really hot in Tel Aviv as well, but I um I had a little I had a little bomb shelter actually on the rooftop terrace. So I kept my worms inside the bomb shelter, which was um quite uh thick concrete, and so it was it was insulated in there and nice and cool.
SPEAKER_00So in Tel Aviv, when you say like the climate's really good for for growing things, is that is there like a good amount of rainfall there? Is that or is it just like good sun?
SPEAKER_01It's good sun, yeah. So it's actually I live in Brisbane now and it's actually a very, very similar climate to to Brisbane subtropical.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They probably only got rain for about four or five months of the year. Uh, which is probably uh typically um similar to to Brisbane as well, although we're in a La Niña year now, so we're we're having a lot more rain. But yeah, typically in in Tel Aviv there isn't there isn't heaps of rain. So we did have to irrigate. But um we had drip irrigation, which was a fantastic solution in that kind of uh environment.
SPEAKER_00Drip irrigation is definitely uh it's really good here too, because it you can like make it so that it's really efficient with watering the right spots rather than using a big sprinkler that just sprays water everywhere when you don't need it to. Um, so I guess we've talked a little bit about your backstory with um, you know, you got into worm farming because it was sort of a childhood um thing that you did with your family, and then when as you grew up, it reminded you of your childhood. But also um we've touched on that you have a big passion about um managing food waste. So I was wondering if you could maybe explain a little bit about like why is food waste a problem? Why, you know, is it a big problem?
SPEAKER_01It is a big problem, and uh as I said earlier, it's a problem that most people don't really appreciate because a lot of people just think that organic waste, because it's organic, by virtue of the fact that it's organic, it will just break down. And so if you put it in the bin and send it to landfill, it will just simply break down in landfill and no problem. But in actual fact, when it breaks down in landfill, it's breaking down in anaerobic conditions, and those conditions create um methane, and they create toxic leachates and they contaminate our waterways. So the problem is actually very significant. Uh on a global scale, food waste probably creates between 8 and 10 percent by most recent um uh data, uh, 8 to 10 percent of our greenhouse gases. So that's that's 10% of what the world is creating. And when you look at um, in the scheme of things, all of the other things that we know and are really well aware of in terms of um greenhouse gas emissions, food waste doesn't really seem to come to the forefront of our minds, and yet and yet it's there and it's a very big player. And on top of that, it's also something that is very easily solved, in my opinion, because every individual can uh play a part in reducing it. We're not reliant on government, we're not reliant on um big business to reduce our food waste. Also, a lot of our food waste is being created in our households, and so the responsibility does fall to us as individuals to actually take that step to reduce it. And um, wonderfully, we can.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so is this the food waste generated in households? Like, this is just a guess. Um, but is it mainly, you know, just who are the worst defending countries? I'm guessing it's us and like the America and who else?
SPEAKER_01Developed countries absolutely are the worst offenders. Uh developing countries tend not to waste food anywhere near as much simply because they don't have as much food and they're a lot savvier about um using the food that they have in their home. So for developed countries, uh we have we tend to throw food out before we eat it, either because it's rotten or um we we don't use it to um its maximum impact. We don't we don't store it correctly, we don't use our scraps, we don't um freeze our scraps, um, and we just we just don't do those things that will extend the life of our food. We simply throw it out because it's readily replaceable. Whereas in developing countries, they don't have that luxury.
SPEAKER_00That's right. It's like because it's so accessible to us, you know, we feel like it we don't attach much importance to the food in our fridge. Like I I try to be a lot better now, but just reflecting upon, you know, when I was younger, I remember, you know, I'd always buy chicken from Woolies or something. And you know, if you didn't use it in the first couple of days, it starts to go off. And then you you think, you know, at this point I was in the city, and yeah, I would just put it in the bin. And that's just such a waste of uh of you know meat, but also resources and energy. And I did have a question about that um statistic. So eight to ten percent of uh global emissions are the result of food waste. So when we say food waste, are we specifically talking about when the waste is in the garbage bags in landfill creating emissions, or does the food waste statistic include all of the like embodied energy required to get the food to the garbage bag?
SPEAKER_01It's a really good question, and I don't know the answer to that. But what I do know the answer to is that when we're talking about food waste, we are talking about a much, much broader picture than the food that goes in the bin and then onto landfill. So food waste is created from the point of production. Yeah, so our farmers um have waste on account of that waste not meeting um spec or um the correct colour, the correct size, the correct weight, the correct look, the correct aesthetic to meet um supermarket standards. And if it doesn't, uh it will go to waste. Australia has very, very high standards. I think the highest standards in the world for um uh produce to go onto supermarkets. So we we produce quite a bit of waste at at that point, it's at the production point. And then we have um manufacturing, which again produces um certain amount of waste and um residual stuff that comes from the manufacturing that then will go on to landfill. Uh the cold storage and transport chain again produces waste. It gets to retail, it produces waste, it gets to the household or to hospitality, and there is further waste produced. So waste is produced across a really broad spectrum, it's not just produced in households. And at each point along that um spectrum, we can we can be reducing it. So I think that figure the eight to ten percent probably encapsulates waste um across across the board from production to households.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I'm not sure whether it takes into consideration the um the water or the energy that's put into growing that food.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just I guess I'm interested just because, you know, if it if that food waste statistic is is focusing specifically on, you know, the emissions caused by the the food in the landfill, but doesn't include, you know, all of the um emissions caused by getting the food to the landfill, you know, that that figure would be probably so much higher. And I guess that's what um I I'm interested in, in that um that's why I'm yeah, interested in it. But um so I guess I'm interested in in all aspects of the food system, really. So you're you're sort of coming in in the middle somewhere. So you're coming in before it goes into the bin or into the recycling or something like that. That's your sort of intervention point with worm farming and composting. Um but I'm interested in what do you do before that point in your life to minimize your impact in in terms of the food system? Because I know that you're quite passionate about um yeah, minimizing your impact in the household. And I've heard you mention on the podcast how to be good. You were sort of saying, like, especially since having children, you know, like um what are some of the the strategies that you're using just as a person in general?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think one of There are a few things that I do, and I can still be a lot better at it, but uh I'm quite conscious about those few things that I do. So, first and foremost, I'm meal plan. So each week I know exactly what I'm going to be eating the next week, and therefore I know exactly what food I need to buy, and that I think is plays a really, really big role for me in minimizing food waste because it just means we're really efficient at eating from what's in our fridge. The other thing that I do is I try to store food correctly. So, you know, herbs can be stored in glass jars in water rather than sitting to kind of go green and slimy in the fridge, which they invariably do after a couple of days. Yeah. Um, you know, thankfully I'm actually able to grow most of my herbs now, which is the best solution, but a lot of people aren't in the luxurious position to be able to do that. So when you can't, you know, try and store things correctly. Um, put them in the chill box or have a little container in your fridge labeled eat first so you know that those things need to go before you start on the fresher stuff. That kind of stuff is um really handy. I try to use up my scraps to make stocks or you know, any number of things that are now in my repertoire for reusing the scraps so they're not going in the bin. Including sometimes that just means freezing them for a later date because I've got I've already got too much stock in my freezer, or I don't have time. Time for me is um a huge pressure point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh so sometimes all I can do is just grab a bag and throw it in the freezer for a later date, that kind of thing. Um, since I've lived in Brisbane, I've also been able to grow some of my own food, and I think that also helped me to be really conscious of what I'm cooking and what I'm eating, and to be a lot more efficient in the way that I'm using my food. And when I don't grow my food, I've also become quite conscious about where I get my food. So in the last couple of years, uh I've really tried to source my fresh fruit and veg from local farmers using local suppliers. I've tried to cut back on the meat that I eat, and when I do eat meat, I try and source it from a local farm where I know how it's been raised, I know the travel miles, that kind of thing. And that also helps me to value my food so much more, which I think has a flow-on effect of not wasting that food. All of that said, my family are very, very big food wasters. Yeah, and you know, there's just there's just no getting around that, and um, you know, as as best as I can do, I have two toddlers and they are huge waste creators, and that just means for me, composting is always going to be a big part of the piece because um a toddler just creates so much waste. So um, you know, I think I'm starting to get to a point where I'm quite happy with the way that I'm thinking about the food that I'm eating and how I'm sourcing it. Uh and and also I'm still creating a lot of weight. So I I um I don't want my my position or to I guess scare people off or make people think that it's an unachievable goal. Um, it's not. We all create waste and we can all be better at it. I can be so much better at it still, but there are small steps that we can just start to take to start to reduce it just a little bit. And if you can do that, then that's an amazing thing.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. I I just was really interested to ask you a little bit about that sort of pre-composting stage about some of the things you do because I think that um in terms of accessible accessibility of climate um action options, you know, working in your kitchen and thinking about where you get your food from, what you're getting, how you're cooking, how you're dealing with your scrap, like that's a really, really massive um way that you can take action every day on climate. And it it may be something that people, I don't know, just haven't necessarily thought of. Sometimes I think people just think it's so out of my reach, it's a problem. And like it does it is a small thing that you're doing, but um you what you don't probably realize is that when you do it, you're contributing to create a culture where so it's not currently in law anywhere that we need to do anything in our homes with our food. We can do whatever we want. But so what we need to do is create a cultural change where there is this sort of um trend of people who have this inner moral compass about you know what they're buying, where they're buying from, because it's only through that cultural shift that we're actually going to make the reduction to that particular area of um emotions. So um yeah, absolutely to talk to you about that. And um I totally agree like that I've got to have little girls um as well. And I just want so much food, it's just incredible. We have a compost, which is like honestly the shadiest compost like I would not want to feature in anyway is an example. There's no such thing as a shady compost. You know, and I like mainly my chickens just get into the compost made scope anyway. So I don't know how much compost is actually being generated. Um but yeah, something that I'm really keen to do is so we grow a lot of our own vegetables here and herbs. We've been really lucky with this rental that we could do that here. And um so something that I have been buying my meat from a local butcher, which like for people listening, like not only is that good for supporting your your local economy, so like local businesses and local jobs, but why it's also really good for the climate is that um the meat that you're getting doesn't have to travel huge distances. And if say the processor and the farmer are local, you have more of a chance of knowing the conditions that the animal was raised in and how it was processed. So you know, more ethical, but also less viable to travel to get to you because that uh um, you know, freight and shipping of products all over the globe is hugely problematic to creating emissions and um, you know, buying local things and not dealing with that um, you know, buying anything, you know, cherries from California or whatever, um, can really help.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just think it is such an important part of the picture. And you know, my big thing is composting, and I bang on about composting day in, day out. But actually, some days I just have to pull myself back and remind my community that if we're reducing our food waste before it gets to compost, then that is the better solution here. Composting is fantastic. Composting is great for regenerating soil, it's great for returning our food scraps to the earth when we have to. But if we don't have to, there are so many wonderful things about being more conscious about how we source our food, what food we source, how we use our food, and that includes on the hip pocket. And you know, sometimes the economic piece is um the thing that gets people over the edge. And so I constantly remind people, you know, actually you save so much money, and that's without even looking at, for me, the more important things, which are the climate picture, the water and resourcing picture that goes into getting the food to our plate.
SPEAKER_00And something that's really quite cool that I've noticed in the community of people who care about, you know, local food and food sovereignty is that um they take a bit of a big picture look at their lifestyle and their spending habits, and they might sort of like redistribute their spending habits. So, for example, for myself, what I'm looking to do with my spending is I used to spend so much money on specifically dresses. You know, I like to have new dresses. I just they make me feel good and it's a free kind of climate awakening. You know, I just always want to get a new dress and wear it and it's bottom. But I don't do that anymore because I simply don't need dresses and I realize now that that's just that's not going to solve my problem and contributing to every if all these stuff. So what I think really is though, is put some of that money into savings, but redistribute some of that budget that I was using for color into my food budget so that I can actually have a bit more leeway to spend a bit more money on those products that um, you know, that that are ethically sourced because sometimes, you know, to cover their overheads, farmers do need to charge a bit more sometimes, you know, if it's a regeneratively um, you know, raised um beef or whatever. So yeah, just having that bit more money to spend on your food budget could be a good thing if you have that the privilege to do so. Um and then you don't have to feel quite as guilty. And also by spending a bit more money on it, maybe you're going to value it slightly more than you know buying six packets of chips instead of you know one bag of nice organic organic potatoes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I also think that doing things like meal planning also just helps you to start to value the food a little more bit more. I'm not sure what it is about it, but I just think having a plan and thinking a little bit more about the food you're eating somehow makes you to value it more. So even taking those little steps um before you even, if you do have the luxury of you know being able to buy organic or um being able to buy locally, then you know, I think again those baby steps will actually help you to get to a better place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right. And so are there any um resource books, just before we sort of move on to the more specific worms, um, are there any resources that you you love, like cookbooks or anything that you have um, I don't know, that are on your shelf and have been used a lot?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. My go-to uh is use it all, which is the corner smith.
SPEAKER_00I just bought that. I just bought that from Australia Post. I haven't um gotten into it yet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I've had that one on my shelf for a little while and it is always my go-to, yeah, for uh using up what I've got in my my kitchen. Uh I've also just very recently received Alex Stewart's uh new new book. Uh the name is it's it's uh Lotox food.
SPEAKER_00Lotox lots of it's a good one.
SPEAKER_01Lotox food, of course. Yes. So I have Alex's book as well. And it actually um, I know I'm act I'm gonna use that one a lot as well, but it's a very similar kind of format to use it all, and um that for me has been really a really helpful format. Uh I also follow someone on Instagram called um uh low waste chef or zero waste chef. Zero waste chef. She is brilliant and she is often my go-to for handy hints and tips for being better with how you organize your fridge and use up everything that you've got in your fridge. I'd say that would be the three things that are my regular daily go-tos.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. The the Cornersmith book, so I I haven't really gotten into this new recipe book that um that use it all one, but I do have a previous book of theirs. Um Cornersmith, I think they were like a restaurant kind of coffee shop, maybe. Was it in Victoria somewhere? In Sydney. In Sydney, yeah, because my mum gave me the book and it has some fantastic recipes in there, um, the one that I used for like fermenting and doing a lot of cool stuff with um your garden produce or just you know, anything really. So um, yeah, I highly recommend to anybody listening into uh cooking or growing veggies or whatever, check out corners. So I'd like to get into the worms a little bit now. So could you tell us a bit about um your community group and um your Instagram, the wormmonger? So how did how did your worm, as Alex Du uh Alex Stewart called it, your worm empire, how did it start?
SPEAKER_01Well, it really started, the wormmonger started in in Tel Aviv actually, and I think it was part of that that longing for me, that yearning to build home. I was there on my little rooftop terrace. I was trying to build a little garden to grow some edibles, and I had my worm farm on the side. And because I was so far from home, I just wanted to record it, start recording it for um the people in my life so they could see where I was living and what I was doing in this new, this brand new world, I guess. And so that's how the Instagram page started. It was just basically me documenting my rooftop space and my my worm farming. Um but quickly, quickly, I realized there was a little bit of a market out there for city dwellers because you know I was living smackbang in the middle of a really, really bustling, bustling city. I had no garden space, there was no real space other than my rooftop to be growing things. And I realized that there was this real market out there for people living in cities to try and to do better or to grow the odd herb on their windowsill and to reduce their food scraps, and they were really conscious of that. And so slowly I started just a little bit of a an education program on the side, and I was attending schools and showing them worms and talking them through how you actually use these worms to return them to the soil.
SPEAKER_00That's how did that start going to schools? Did you like did somebody just say, Hey, like, can you come with your worms to the school? Like, how did that be? Yeah, pretty much.
SPEAKER_01I mean, just um community contacts, I guess, through my through the work that I was doing over in Tel Aviv, one of the women that I was working with, um, she had small children and she wanted the kids to come around to see what I was doing on the rooftop and for me to show them the worms. And it literally sprung out of that that they attended a school that then was interested in showing an entire class. And then it's just a word of mouth kind of thing. Other little pockets of the community start to hear that there's this crazy worm lady out there rooting her worm.
SPEAKER_00No, it's so cool. It's um I think it's so so interesting. Um, just on a side note, just was what was living in Israel like? Was it uh was it really awesome? Like it was super interesting because that's such a like a different place to to work for a lot of people. I guess Australians always just go to like you know Europe somewhere, but it's cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was wonderful. It is it just it was just an amazing, it is an amazing cosmopolitan city that is right on the beach. So uh it's it's buckling. The food is amazing. I was fascinated by the way Israelis uh can grow food because they're literally in a desert, they've grown, they've you know built up this country um from sand. And you know, they grow their agriculture, is really quite amazing, and I suspect um gaining a bit of an interest in that also really encouraged me to get more and more into the wormmonger as well, actually, because they're just doing such amazing things uh in the agricultural space.
SPEAKER_00If you can grow amazing things in the desert, like what can't you do? That's that's awesome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just amazing technology. Um I mean, if living in the Middle East has has its difficulties and it's a it's quite an intense it can be quite an intense place to live. And you know, you're in you're kind of smack bang in the middle of this melting pot of um of conflict. So there is another, there is a flip side to all to all of that um wonderful part of life as well. Yeah, so a real a real mix.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a real mix. And and so when you came back to Australia, um you moved to Brisbane, which was a new city, and that's where you started doing worm farming on a grander scale. Could you tell us a bit about that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it actually started um during COVID, and we'd moved to this brand new city, and I had two small babies, I didn't really have a network, a social network at all. And and then COVID hit, and that kind of reduced my opportunities further. And you know, I was in a new home, and once again, you kind of get this this yearning to create home, and I needed an outlet for for doing that, and started to mull over what my options might be, and so I just decided to start this compost hub, and you know, I I literally kind of jimmied up a sign that said compost hub and threw it in my carport, and I got some buckets off Facebook Marketplace because I was really concerned to make this hub the easiest possible thing for participants because they I thought if they've got to think about one single thing, yeah, they won't participate, and yeah, ultimately I think I was wrong in thinking that. But at the time I thought I've got to make this the easiest thing, and then people will participate. So I did everything for them, but for filling that bucket with their food scraps. Um I didn't I honestly didn't think I would get much traction, I didn't think much would come of it, but I did start to collect the coffee ground from my local cafe, and and then people just started to participate. People could see it when they walked past, they could see the sign, and so they were intrigued.
SPEAKER_00Um could you tell us what were the what oh sorry, what what were the rules? So, like you had the buckets there. What did the sign say about what people could put in in the buckets and what they should bring?
SPEAKER_01Pretty much it was an everything in, but I did I did have a little sign on each of the buckets which which had a do's and don'ts. So again, I was trying to make it as easy as possible for the punters.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So they could take their bucket home and then they could still have the sticker on the side to remind them of what they couldn't put put put in. So pretty much the only thing I think that are off limits on that side are on that sign are pet two.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Classic. Uh, I think that could be it.
unknownCool.
SPEAKER_00It could be in yeah, um, but organic matter and carbon sources, right? So is that the do's yeah, that's the do's.
SPEAKER_01So uh any fruit and veg scraps, eggshells, um egg cartons, paper. I don't limit it when it comes to things like lemon and onion, which are often limited when it comes to worm farming. I'm not sure why. I've never really had a big problem with those items. And because I'm running quite a large system, I know that I've got a system that is large enough that can absorb the additional acidity. So I've tried not to limit it. Again, that is partly because I want to make it as simple as possible for participants, and I thought any kind of complication in terms of what they can and can't put in, then I was just worried that they would just be immediately out and they just wouldn't play.
SPEAKER_00So were people quite like, for example, with the egg cartons, were people quite good at just using common sense, like peeling off the plastic if they had like a plastic coloured label or something for you? Like, do you need to do that with the egg cartons?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are still some things, there is some contamination that I get through. To be honest, it's not so much things like that, it's the fruit stickers. Oh, yeah, fruit stickers.
SPEAKER_00Freaking everything, aren't they?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so fruit stickers are by far the biggest contamination. In my worm farms. Yeah, there's so much, you know, gets through to the keeper, including in my own caddy. I just I just cannot filter all of them out. I just don't know how I don't, but I just don't. I know that I'm an offender there. And so, you know, I just have to be completely understanding of the fact that these things will slip through, and you know, even even I'm slipping them through on a pretty regular basis, to be honest. I can't catch them all.
SPEAKER_00Greater. Sorry, it's my dog.
SPEAKER_01But did you know? Did you know that those fruit stickers can go in your soft cycling, soft, soft plastics recycling? No. So, yes. So when you do catch them, stick them on your soft plastic and into the soft plastics recycling. And that is the that is the true home for the stickers. Those fruit stickers until we have a solution that is a little bit more environmentally friendly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, awesome. I'm sorry I interrupted you about those specific rules because I want people listening, I want them to have enough pieces of the puzzle so that if they want to implement such a system perhaps in their street, they they can. And these questions just are popping up in my mind as you're speaking. So you you got the buckets off Facebook Marketplace, you put the sign up in your garage and you ask people to bring their um their waste to you. So what happened then? People started bringing their waste to me.
SPEAKER_01It was it just felt like such a coup. I just really didn't expect that people would participate. And honestly, I just got so many participants, and I still have kind of a regular 10 families on my little street would regularly participate, and then there are others who are semi-regular because they don't produce as much waste, or they have their own worm farms or compost piles at home, and so it's just overflow that they're bringing to me. And uh since I've started my compost hub, people have started their own worm farms in their own homes because they realize that they can actually do it themselves, and then any excess they'll send down to me. So yeah, they then they'll all they need to do is drop the box bucket back off at my car pot and I do the rest. So I process the food scraps, I empty the baskets, I process the food scraps, I wash out the buckets and return them to the clean to back to the compost hub, and then I also harvest the castings intermittently, probably once every three months or so, I would do a harvest. I could do it more regularly, but I'm just I don't I don't have the time. It's a time issue for me. And then I return the castings back to the community.
SPEAKER_00And when you say worm castings, is that sort of like the so you put the food scraps into your worm farm and the worms process the food scraps and turn them into worm castings, right? That's and the worm castings are essentially like worm poo, right? Or it's poo. Yeah, it's poo. It's glorious shit. But it's like magic worm poo because every like you know, it's like the ultimate kind of, I don't know, like natural fertilizer or whatever for plants, isn't it? Like, can you tell us a little bit about what's the value in the worm castings?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so worm castings are really, really high in nutrients, even compared to other manures. So uh that makes them just black gold, they call it black gold, and it's because it is just um so high in nutrient and microbial value. Lots and lots of wonderful microbes and bacteria, good bacteria living in the worm castings or the worm poo. And it's also pH neutral, so you can just throw it straight on to your your garden, unlike other manures which need to be composted down or let let to rest for a few months before you put them on your garden. Worm castings can just go straight on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, without like burning the roots or anything like that. Exactly. Yeah, because we've got like the chickens, but I know that we can't directly put any of their droppings like onto the garden because it can damage the plants. Um, so that's so cool. And when you are like how um how often did you say you is it every few months you said you can harvest the worm castings from the worm farm?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I reckon I could probably because I've got a really large system of bathtub worm farms running under my house. I reckon I could probably do a harvest once every eight weeks and get a decent amount of castings, but I just don't have the time to do it. It usually takes me half a day to do a couple of bathtubs at a time, and so I just haven't had the time in the last few months. So probably I'll do it once every three or four months, and then I'll bag it up in compostable mailers and and then give it back to the community.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. And for for for example, like if I had a one bathtub worm farm, how um how much would I be able to to get out, you know, when I'm harvesting the worm castings, like a bucket or something? How much? Just roughly. It doesn't have to be exact, just for interest's sake.
SPEAKER_01Probably probably about 20 litres, I would say, at least.
SPEAKER_00Um which is like two buckets.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Two sits of sieve. Yeah, and and and possibly even even more. It depends how so what I do when I'm harvesting the castings is I run them through this um homemade sieve that I've uh I think I saw that roll sort of wire type sieve, yeah, that you should have made. My homemade, very makeshift trommel. Uh, but it's extremely effective. So I run I run the um the the castings through that, and anything that's kind of left in the mesh, I just run it back through my worm farm. Yeah uh and anything that falls through the grate uh uh is good to go out to the community. So I could probably a lot of the stuff that goes back into the farm probably is quite well processed, but I just run it through again just because I I don't have the time to really sift through it uh in you know extreme detail. Uh and also it depends how long it's kind of been sitting there to process. So if you've had something sitting there for six months, you pretty much the whole bathtub will be good to go. You'll all all you'll be doing is sifting out the worms and returning them to the farm, and everything else will will be able to go out to the community. So potentially you're kind of looking at depending on how big the bathtub is, you know, a 50-litre bag of of so I did I actually come to think of it, I did two bathtubs most recently and I got 200 litres out of that. Whoa, yeah, a lot. They had been sitting there for a while and that's they were very full.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So they were, you know, at capacity. Uh so yeah, I think I'm pretty sure I got 200 litres.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. And are your worm castings in like super high demand in your street? Are people just like keen for them?
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01They absolutely are. And also I find that if I do a um a harvest and I pop it up into my Instagram stories or onto my Instagram feed, people contact me to say, can I have some?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, you've got a massive following. I think you've got like 16,000 people following you, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_01So, and some some of those followers now know that um I live in prison.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if they're local, they're onto it. But they they're usually, I mean, 200 litres, it actually isn't that much. So it it goes out to to the street, and sometimes what I do is actually um, yeah, I I'll we'll set up something in advance so I know who's coming to collect, or I'll put word out in advance and people kind of put dibs on a bag, and 200 litres goes very quickly. People will take a 20-litre bag or even more if they can. And um, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Once you start getting into gardening and you see how well the plants respond to good soil, you just yeah, like so. That's part of my motivation. So we are about to move um out of town um to like a 30-acre property. Um, and we're we're just a bit further out. In town, we have been buying mushroom compost, even though we do make some of our own compost here. Um just when we were doing the bigger gardens, we buy some in. But out there, it's gonna be very hard to take it out there. So I'd really like to start my own worm farm um and harvest my own casting. And I was wondering from you like, do you think two things? What kind of a size do you reckon a family of four would need with two toddlers who create a lot of food waste? Um, and do you think they're like, do you recommend buying like a specific worm farm or can people like source other things to to make their own worm farm out of? Like, what do you think is the best?
SPEAKER_01So my response to that is a family of four, uh, what you need, I have a bathtub, which basically a bathtub worm farm which accommodates my family of four. So it's something that size. If you buy one of the little commercial urban farms, you know, a can of worms, a tumbleweed can of worms, or uh whatever else is out there on the market, there are lots of really great products out there on the market, but they're just not big enough for a person with two toddlers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So a a bathtub worm farm is the size that I recommend. And that leads me very neatly on to the next question is what do you buy? Uh, and I always recommend that if you can upcycle something rather than buying something new, that is absolutely the way to go. A bathtub is the perfect vessel. If you have the space, it is the perfect vessel for building a worm farm because it has a plug hole which creates natural drainage, and bathtubs are kind of built on a slant, so water goes into the drain, and so you have this beautiful design for a worm farm. Any excess moisture is naturally running down into that drain, and um, it's a great size for accommodating a household full of people. So, if you have the space, I absolutely recommend something like a bathtub. It doesn't have to be a bathtub, you can it can just be any vessel that has a hole in the bottom and will create good drainage. Uh, laundry sinks are good. I have a couple of really old school concrete laundry sinks that I've upcycled into worm farms. They also make uh great worm farms and they're beautiful. Yeah. Uh um so you know, you I guess get creative and um start thinking a little bit outside the box. Commercially, you can't really get anything that's quite as big as a uh a bathtub, but you could um repurpose a like a getty a compost on ground bin uh and you know make that into a worm farm, for example. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, that's cool. I just I know um over there's this big kind of white plastic old like food kind of drum thing. And I was thinking about using that and drilling a hole in the bottom, but I don't know, a bathtub just seems really cool. And I know Hannah Maloney, um, she's got this cool bathtub worm farm with like um a lid that swings open and it's like on in this wooden frame. So she has a jug to collect like the wormwhee at the bottom, which like the worm we're is also really good to fertilize your plants, right? The liquid.
SPEAKER_01Well, um, there are different schools of thought on that. And and actually you you yeah, you really shouldn't put it on your edible plants just because um it's quite an uncertain, uh, unstable product because it it yeah, that runoff hasn't actually been through the worm's digestive system. So it's just unclear what the contents of that are, and it they might be fine, but um, they might also not be fine and they might just be developing some of the bad bacteria as opposed to the castings which have been processed and have all of the good stuff in them. Yeah, but certainly fine for your inedible plants, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_00Like trees and that kind of thing, just around. Yeah, cool. Okay, well, God, I'm glad I asked you that question, or I would have been spraying it on my veggies. Um, that's super cool. And so when I get my bathtub out to the property, what resource is the best resource for me to use, in your opinion, to tell me what to do to, you know, with the worms and stuff to create my actual worm farm? Because you need to have layers, don't you, of like dirt and carbon and yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, do you mean in terms of how you build your farm?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like the contents of the bathtub with the worms, what the worms live in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh there are a few good tutorials out there. Um, I actually have one on my Instagram page. I've got a an IGTV, but I'm sure Costa has one. Um and probably Hannah Maloney has one too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01But there are plenty of tutorials out there which will tell you how to build it. And it's really, really simple. The layers, it's it's pretty, it's it's pretty straightforward. Uh, and yeah, yeah, I run through it pretty quickly on my um Instagram channel.
SPEAKER_00Well, we'll recommend your Instagram tutorial, obviously, because this is featuring you, and that's what I'll check out too. Um well, that's fantastic, and I think that that makes worm farming, you know, it really breaks it down and much it makes it much more simple so that people can kind of go out and maybe start their own worm farm and they can see how that is something that contributes to, you know, a a sort of healthier planet. Um, so I know you've just finished your PhD. So what was your PhD sort of focus? I haven't finished it unfortunately. Oh, you haven't. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Sorry. I've I've finished the first year, which seems like an accomplishment in itself. So um, yeah, I'll take that win for now. Um that's a big it is a big win. Yeah. Um, my PhD is about valorizing food waste, so adding value to food that would otherwise go to landfill. Yeah. And so we're talking about food waste, which is at the very beginning of the production and supply chain. So it's where farmers are creating waste more so than at household level. So my compost hub and my composting is all very, very much focused on how we can um reduce um food waste uh as individuals. My PhD is actually right at the other end of the spectrum. It's about how we can add value to food waste where farmers are having to basically leave it in the field or plow it back in for another season. So they're getting zero value out of that highly valuable product. So, how can we add value to that? Uh, and it's actually quite a technical question because it's about extracting nutrients from that food, so creating pharmaceuticals or nutrients, um, nutraceuticals, cosmetics, vitamins, uh, and minerals, extracting that from the food and creating something that is of very high value.
SPEAKER_00That's um an interesting sort of jump from um Law and Arts, which was your original degree, right? Did it does that relate to the work that you were doing with D Fat?
SPEAKER_01Um it doesn't, and yeah, I I completely get that for the untrained eye, it looks like I've done a complete 180.
SPEAKER_00Which there is nothing wrong with, I must say, I've done a lot of 180s in my life.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, in some respects, it really is that really is the case. I've I've I've really switched it right up, but also I think there are a lot, a lot of factors which are really, really similar to the work that I was doing. So um I I worked in international development and foreign policy, and I I worked in a lot of conflict and post-conflict countries where um my work was very much focused on developing sustainable systems for society. Uh, and a lot of that when you go into someone else's country is about setting them up so local communities can do that for themselves. And so that for me is um really, really very, very similar to the to what I feel like I'm I'm doing now. Um, for the first time in my life, I feel like I've moved back to Brisbane and truly understood the value of local community, even though I spent many, many years on a global scale, admittedly, but working with local communities so that they could build sustainable communities. Um, and now I'm just translating that to my own little patch, really. Um so I do feel like there are many similarities. It's just that the food waste piece is very different, and um that that technical high value piece is something that I've never really considered before.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's it's really interesting just to ask, yeah, some questions about you know the things that you're up to. Do you have any feelings about, you know, post-PHD, the direction you want to travel in? Have you sort of, or are you kind of just like intuitively feeling your way like as you go?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very much the latter, I would say. I don't know where this will take me. I just feel like I took this path because I was meant to go return to work after maternity leave as COVID hit basically, and I needed to look outside the box. And for me, that kind of meant asking myself, well, what would I do if I if I had um if I had the opportunity to do anything? And for me, kind of investigating food waste and my passion around compost was the first thing that came to mind. So that's how I got into this. Where I will take it, I don't know. I mean, I could return to uh international development and just use this particular expertise to reimagine that space, or I could really um change paths and um go down the path of something more local, including really, really localized communities. And I feel like since starting my compost hub, community has just and the value of community now is at the absolute forefront of my mind. I am so passionate about that and really nurturing that in my own community and discovering more and more what I can do within that community and how we can build that community. Um, there is just a world, I just kind of see a a world of good that can be done out there, and I'm so curious about investigating that more. And so I feel like probably I could go down two really, really different paths and um I'm sitting on the fence at the moment as to how it will how it could possibly play out. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think I like love living like that. I love living intuitively, and I'm I guess, you know, a much smaller scale. I'm not doing a PhD or anything, but that's sort of how I'm living at the moment is trying to follow these uh like creative um sort of uh projects that I that I'm doing that are really focused around climate and and climate action and um yeah, just keeping trying to keep away different projects and and just see sort of where it goes. But you know, I'm really I've really changed a lot about the way that I view work in general because I think you know I did my um undergrad work in law and um I was too to go into um like a grad material at um and just collect me. I was like my intuition said no, I want to move back to work to my country town and and you know have kids there and just work in a local law firm there. And so I did that and um and then you know had the kids and sort of had this great like awakening to like the the world, decide the world. And and now I just reimagined how I how I do work because I mean what I'm doing right now, I'm not gonna do it, but like the hours that I'm putting in, you know, I I am working, but society doesn't really value that it's work, but but I'm sort of thinking, you know. Even if I just work two days a week just doing something to get, you know, the money that I need, that might actually be enough. I don't have to have a huge income just because society tells me I need to have a huge income, you know. Um, and I think that's a pretty revolutionary way for my mind to have shifted in terms of the space of things that I can do that really just um fuel my like inner fire.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I am you know I could have said those very words myself. I think that's something that I'm really grappling with right now. How I find that balance between earning money um and contributing financially financially to the family, um, and also indulging this this space, which brings me a lot of joy, but is also a really, really, really important aspect of us moving forward as as a society and essential cultural change.
SPEAKER_00Like it's important words, it's really important.
SPEAKER_01And you know, I completely appreciate that I'm I'm you know only able to have this conversation or entertain this thought because of you know the privileged position which I find myself in, but I also feel like that position brings with it responsibility, and that for me is a really, really driving factor. In the last month, I've been really really busy um trying to get through my final couple of milestones for the PhD, and I just have barely had the time to empty my buckets and clean them out, and the only driving thing is that this hub has a life of its own, it is a beast of its own, and it is a required part of this community now, and it cannot stop.
SPEAKER_00No, isn't that awesome though? Like these things start to gain momentum. I think once you start becoming more aligned with your your purpose, like as a human on the earth, and you start acting in alignment with that purpose, I reckon that's so true what you say. These things do take on a life of their own and they just start generating, it's like opportunities just come before you. Well, just smack the microphone. They just like the opportunities just come before you, and things just start to happen and gain momentum. So I have like an inkling that what's going to happen for you is that through you know your work in the worm monger and your studies and your PhD, something is just going to pop up that's like absolutely perfect for you because that's just how it works. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so for now for now, I guess I'm kind of running both paths parallel. I'm really, really trying to invest in that community space because it is so important for so many reasons for me personally, but for this community more broadly, and you know, I can see how my community has changed just because of um this compost hub and how people's thinking on my street has changed and how much more willing they are to look outside the box and think a little bit more about something as simple as food waste, but even more broadly than that as well. Um, and so I just figure uh you know, it's just it's it's now it's now got a meaning beyond the compost hub. This compost hub, it's got a meet meaning beyond it, and it's it's significant.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think it's it's so fantastic, and I love like watching all the stuff that you you're like doing um through your Instagram page, the Wormonga. So I'll put a link to that for everyone who's listening. And um, so how I I finish up my interviews is I like to ask the guest to tell me in their own words, it can be um anything you like, how you want the world to look in 2050.
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. And for me, what is constantly at the forefront of my mind is my little girlies and yeah, a world, a world for them that that brings them joy and wonder and awe and doesn't create the kind of anxiety that I can feel starting to uh bubble up within myself and um yeah, within society more broadly now as we try and tackle the climate crisis.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, when you just I think having having little kids and having 2050 be, you know, 30 years away, you it's just you think, because that's you know, round about my age now, and you just think, my goodness, things could be we're really at this like crucial moment where like all this this change has to happen, and it can be a lot of pressure. And not only is it a lot of pressure, the change we need to make, but you know, you're making that change in your life, but you you describe it as you're indulging, you know, yourself, but what you're really doing is like critical community work to get us to a place where we're actually just still able to exist as humanity, you know, but you're guilting yourself about that. And doesn't that just raise the question a little bit about the fact that our systems are a bit broken? That's it.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, it does.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think that you start off with worm farming and you get to the point of considering system change from the ground up, and I think that that's the connection that you know that you're you're doing um in the work, and and it's super important work. So don't feel guilty. You keep doing what you're doing, it's fantastic. What a great lady. Uh so I hope you learned heaps in that chat. I definitely did. Um so if you want to get started on your own worm farm, Hannah has a great ebook that's on her website, and I've got that in the show notes, and that will tell you everything you need to know. And if you're already a worm farmer, why don't you get your whole street involved? Because it sounds like it's given Hannah like so much happiness and joy just from um, you know, connecting with her community through that that sort of small compost hub. So I mean, give it a crack. And especially, you know, if you're new to somewhere, that's how why Hannah did it in Brisbane. And um now she knows everyone and she's gonna like start a thriving business and become, you know, worm queen of Brisbane. Um, maybe even the world, literally the world the the world is your oyster or the world is your worm farm. Anyway, I've got to stop. I'm sorry. I hope you liked this chat. Next week um I have two guests, and they are, I think, the final two for this season before Christmas. So we have Claire Riley coming on. She has a wonderful podcast, and she um she deals with um MS and she educates people on her experience with MS and that of others and how she does that in a conscious way and living in a low-waist lifestyle that is, you know, beneficial to the planet. So really exciting and totally in line with with you know all the work that I'm doing, and I'm looking forward to hearing about her experiences. And I'm also chatting with Barry Libberman, who is the editor of Dumbo Feather. Um, she's co-founder, I think, and director of Small Giants Academy. She's she manages like 30 different companies, and they all um are involved in impact investing. So basically just trying to uh trying to create a better world. You know, she is a busy woman and it was like my brain is still reeling from our chat this morning. It was deep, it was vast, and uh could my brain keep up sometimes. She's a very intelligent woman and she's like my idol. So I was literally freaking and I was a complete sweaty mess afterwards, but I think it was good. And you know, I may or may not have pitched myself as a potential employee. I don't think I recorded that bit, but oh my god, I'm an idiot. Anyway, you can definitely employ me, Barry. I'm very willing and uh able. Gotta work out how to make some cash at some point because I can't step out of this capitalist society completely just yet. Anyway, if you have any interesting um income earning tips, let me know. I'm all ears. I was thinking about selling produce from my garden, but I have to start again in the new place, and anyway. There's some interesting things in my brain for next year. I have three projects that I'm working on so far, but currently none of them are making me any money. So we shall see. Anyway, I've rambled on for a while. I hope you liked this podcast, and I hope that if you did like it, that you share it. Okay, alright, have a great week. I will see you next week. Bye guys.