What if we came back to life? Part 1 - with Mutima Imani from Spiral Journey (The Work That Reconnects)

An episode from the 2022 archives with Mutima Imani, spiritual leader, author and facilitator at Spiral Journey (The Work That Reconnects) discussing the topic - "What if we came back to life?" Part 1. 

https://mutimaimani.com/ 

https://spiraljourneyworkthatreconnects.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There's a flip side. So when you're in fear, it's the measurement of your courage. And when you're in anger, it is your passion for justice. So as soon as you express it, you can flip into the flip side of it. The emptiness that you're feeling is the desire for something new to happen.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Hi, I'm Sophie. Welcome to Big Things Little Things, a podcast series where I sit down with inspiring change makers to discuss the big things they're doing, the little things that make them who they are. And together we vision pathways towards a better future. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording, the Gethaboal people of the Bungalung Nation, and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging. Mutima is a social justice visionary, reverend, master trainer and facilitator working to heal the heart of humanity by providing 21st century tools for personal and professional development and transformation. So Mutima and I are diving into the question today, what if we came back to life? This question is inspired by the body of work that we're diving into today called The Work That Reconnects, which is really sort of has been developed by Joanna Macy, a very well-known activist in the world, who has two books on this particular topic, so Active Hope and Coming Back to Life. So I hadn't been conscious of the existence of the work that reconnects previously. However, during some sort of dark moments, it came to my attention, and I have found it so beneficial that I really wanted to share it with the listeners because I think that it provides such a supportive framework that we can all use to kind of guide our activism practice in a way that's going to be supportive to ourselves and, you know, really minimize the chance of us ending up sort of burnt out and depleted and exhausted and, you know, in despair and sadness and grief, like all of those things that can happen when you're working in this space when you don't have a framework in place to guide your activism. So I won't go into it too far because we're going to dive into it through this discussion. This is part of a two-part series. So I'll speak to Mutima today, and then next week I'll be releasing an episode with John Seed, who is also a facilitator for the work that reconnects, and he is located in uh New South Wales, and he is an activist in the area of protecting the rainforests. So that's a really wonderful conversation, and I look forward to sharing that one too. So enjoy today, and I will speak to you on the other side. I didn't even have to put any lipstick on. It looks very nice. Welcome, welcome to the podcast, Mutima. I'll just start out by explaining how I kind of um came across you and sort of, you know, the work that you're doing. So um I do a lot of environmental kind of activism work here in Australia. And I recently, a couple of months ago, I just had a complete kind of burnout crash where I just uh I don't know, I just really hit a wall of fatigue, of anxiety, of depression, like of despair, like about just the state of the world. Like I really was have not not had an easy couple months. And um during this time, like I was kind of desperately trying to seek um, you know, information to help. Like, how how can I continue to do this work like in a sustainable way that for me that's I'm not just gonna keep burning out. And um, I was speaking with um a previous guest, Della Duncan, and she recommended that I read the book Active Hope. And when I was speaking with her about some of the issues I was having, she ran through the spiral with me, which is to do with the work that reconnects. And I found um, yeah, my introduction to this body of work that you're involved in called the work that reconnects. I just found it really transformative. Like it created a completely new way that I could um view the work that I was doing and a new approach that I could take with it. And it really has helped me so much. And so I feel quite passionate to share that work. And I came across you when I was researching the facilitators course for the work that reconnects, and um, you facilitate that with, I think it's Constance Um and Molly, um, two other um women who are powerful in this space. So um, yeah, I was really excited to speak with you and just dive into your work a little bit. Well, thank you for having me. I wanted to just start out um by just asking, would you be able to tell the listeners um just a bit about yourself and and your the work that you do and and your history?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Okay, well, let's see. I currently am on Alone Land on Turtle Island, which is the Bay Area, California. Um, I've been in this area uh since 75. Um I grew up as a military brat. My father was in the Air Force, so as a young girl, I lived in Casablanca and in Okinawa. And um we moved to California in um when I was in fourth grade. We were the second black family to move into a small town called Apple Valley, and it was uh quite an experience because the uh KKK, the Ku Klux Klan, uh visited the house many, many times on Friday nights for several years. Um when I left there, I went to Chico State and I started as a psych major in an experiential program. Um and after two years in Chico, I moved down to Cal State Hayward and I changed my major. But I I had enough experience because I was in that experiential program to work as a therapist. Um I went into a better women's shelter and to the Center for Family Counseling. And when I finished the BA, I got a special BA in what we uh what I called public media communication. So I combined public administration, mass communications, and speech together. And um, so I've been working for myself mostly. Um uh while I was working as a therapist um at the Center for Family Counseling, somebody called the director and they wanted somebody to come over to do stress management. And so I did that for them, and then I did some team building for them, and then I actually got my master's in public administration with the emphasis in phenomenology, which is which is how all things work together.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

Oh, cool. I did see phenomenology, and I was wondering what what that was because I'd never seen that term before.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah, and at the same time I was working on my master's, I I found um the science of mind philosophy. Um, it's called religious science, and I went through ministerial school, and it's the study of all religions and the common denominators. And so um I ended up as the social justice minister at a at a um religious science uh church and running my own business. Um I was dating a guy who was um in an intentional community and Joanna Macy, who is the group teacher of the work that reconnects, um her assistant ran this place called Canticle Farms, and it's still in existence, it's in Oakland. And um my oldest brother uh married a woman that he met in junior high school and was in uh biracial marriage, and they had three sons, and the first son, the oldest son and the youngest son both committed suicide because when they were coming to age, um even though they were with these same children every since they were in elementary school, their f parents started to say, Oh, you can't hang out with them because they're black. And so I was like, when the first one killed itself, it was like horrific, of course. And then when the second one, I just went into a downward dive and was full of so much grief that I almost died. My blood uh sugar was over 600 for three weeks. I developed diabetes, just on and on and on. And um, Joanna's assistant realized that uh I wasn't coming out of the grief, so she invited me to a work that reconnects workshop. And the beauty about the work that reconnects, it gives people permission to be angry, to be um uh sad, full of despair, feeling the emptiness, and to tell the truth about how you're feeling, which is the second uh position on the spiral. The first spiral is you start with gratitude and then you honor the pain that you are feeling about whatever's happening in your life or the pain that you're feeling from seeing the suffering in the world. And then once you tell the truth about how you're feeling, you get this new sense of energy. So it was the first time that I was able to grieve my nephew's suicides without having to take care of the person who I just told. Yeah. And I really got all of my juice back. I mean, really. And so I've been committed to the work. Um, I went through a people of color cohort and uh began to, I was already a diversity consultant. I got trained by Price Cobbs, who wrote the book uh Black Rage. I was part of the first Fortune 500 consultants to go into organizations uh for diversity. And so we put my work, my diversity work, with the work that reconnects. The work that reconnects is, as you know, from your own experience, it really is liberating. Um, but it had it didn't have any, it didn't have a decolonizing diversity, um, dismantling white supremacy lens to it. So Joanna actually hired me through Annie to do that with the work. And then Constance and Molly decided that they wanted to do a facilitation development program, and they brought me on as one of the partners.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Wow, that's such an incredible story. And you've done so many, so many things, like um, your sort of education is like extremely broad and really interesting. Um, and it's yeah, it's always fascinating to hear, yeah, how other people sort of have encountered like this this body of work and how it has sort of informed how they've gone on, you know, with the rest of their life. So, for a lot of people who are listening right now, I think they wouldn't know what we're talking about when we say the work that reconnects. Some might, but some some might not. So I was wondering if just for those people who've never heard about the work that reconnects, uh, if you could just just explain a little bit um what it means to you um through your experience and how how it came to be.

unknown 12:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Okay, well, the work that reconnects really got started as um in response to nuclear war and weapons. And so Joanna and her husband Fran went to places where there was nuclear uh disasters to help people cope with their loss, their grief, and the conditions in which they were left with. And it was called Despair and Hope or something like that. I can't really remember, but it used to be called something else. And then as they've advanced it, it got the work, the name, the work that reconnects. So basically, it's a body of work that if you do it, it will reconnect you to yourself, to other people, and to nature. And so it's a uh the book that is kind of like the work that reconnects Bible, it's called Coming Back to Life. And it has all of these exercises that will really reconnect you to yourself and have you begin to take a moral inventory of how you're feeling about what's happening to the world because of the industrial growth revolution. There are three stories within the work that reconnects, and the first story is the story of uh business as usual, and it is, and the second one is the great unraveling, and the third one is the great turning. So, business as usual is a story of the industrial growth society, um, capitalism, imperial economic system, the corporate, financial, military, industrial complex that perpetuates patriarchy and white supremacy, which has us in the state of affairs that we're living in now. And what's very interesting is that a lot of people think that it's only happening in the United States. Um, and you can think that if you don't know how the United States was developed. Um and that's another long story. Um, but but the industrial uh growth society is business as usual. We want more, more, more. We're told to spin, spin, spin. We want to grow, grow, grow, and we will, you know, cut trees down that have been there for thousands of years. Uh, and if I go back in history and tell that truth, you Europeans came, settlers came, colonizers came, and they took the land, killed the people, built houses, and we are where we are.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

And so the business as usual story, if if you've kind of just grown up in society and been educated through, I guess, the mainstream institutions and the mainstream education, you will probably identify with the story of business as usual as just being like how it is, right? Yes, just how it comes up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so and so what about? So I guess we're talking about stories right now, and these are stories that um are part of the work that reconnects. And I I guess to flesh that out a little bit, it's I guess we are thinking about the stories that we live by, because when we think about it and articulate it, um, it sheds light on why we sort of think things that we think and why people do some of the things that they do and why we have some of the problems that we're in. Um, and the stories that we live by can really influence our actions. So if we identify with business as usual as being, you know, how it should be, how it is, we continue to focus on things like GDP, where we think that there's more value in cutting down trees than leaving them to grow, kind of thing. Um, as that's a very like one simplified aspect of it. But I was wondering about so the other stories that come into the work that reconnects. Um, could you tell us a little bit about those other stories?

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yes, so the um great unraveling is a story that activists are realizing that we've got to do something because we've built an unsustainable society, a way of living, and we're destroying ourselves and we're destroying the planet. And so it's everything that business as usual is now unraveling. We're seeing the effects of climate change, we're seeing the disconnect between cultures and the um idea that one race is more superior than the other, and the oppression and the marginalization of other cultures. And so it's everything's unraveling now. You know, it's record digit hot. Uh there's uh species that are just disappearing, that you know, the ice caps are melting, and so all of that, everything that we've done for the last 400 years is starting to unravel on us. And so the unraveling is that there's a realization that, and it's apparent in every area of our lives, that at an accelerating rate, the change is happening. And one of the reasons why it's we're so aware of it is because of the advances in communication and uh, you know, just where we are technology-wise. And so in the advancement, the unraveling is happening even faster.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

And with with that unraveling story, I'm still learning a lot about this work. So I guess I'm just testing out some of my thoughts through discussion with you, if that's okay. But I guess when I when we talk about the great unraveling, um, is it true that an over-identification with the story of the great unraveling might result in you having a view that everything's falling apart, the world is just going to fall into complete chaos and species extinction, and I've just got to fend for myself because it's all going down the toilet.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Absolutely. Or I'm not gonna fend at all, I'm just gonna roll with the punches and be in despair and not do anything because what can I do? I can't save the planet. So they go in hand in hand.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

So so that's sort of the identification with the great unraveling. And then so in the work that reconnects, I've really um observed like a focus on um identification with the third story, the great turning. So could you tell us about the great turning?

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Yeah, the great turning is really the awareness that uh we need to get into action to reconnect with ourselves, other people, and the and nature, and that it can be done. So it's really about envisioning, um, collaborating towards liberation and looking for the solutions instead of saying, oh well, oh hell, you know. Um, and so it's a choice to get active and to have, and there's that word again, uh, title again, active hope about it. And and you know, if you are the kind of person that watches the news, then you're really clueless about all of the things that are really happening that are putting us in the right direction. And I want to I want to say that you know, uh it is um not in every creation story, is the a pop has an apocalyptic ending. And so you we want to begin to say, well, where does that ending come from? Well, it comes from business as usual, and it's a control thing. So when you are feeling powerless, when you're self-loathing, and you're non-living, then you're just doing what the business as usual wants you to do. Because business as usual is for the one percent, it's not for all of us.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's what I really um I took from like learning a bit about the great turning was that you know, you you actually it's not just about sitting back and just what will happen will happen. We don't really have a predetermined destiny. We we choose. Our destiny, and we have agency to influence it, not to give, but like active hope doesn't give false hope too. It doesn't say that you know, if you take action, everything is going to be a-okay and we're going to be fine. There's still great, like great risks happening, um, you know, towards life on Earth in general. But it's saying that even in the event that things don't go well, you want to be able to say that you put your best foot forward, like you did everything possible within your capacity to to drive change in the in a positive direction. Which I like, I like that there's that kind of realisticness to to the work, which I do really struggle. I struggle with that tension though, like, because I guess that's you know, my conditioning is like you condition to like want to control, to control a situation. And I think that that's where my activism, you know, or previously like has come unstuck, is that you're trying very hard to control the the what's happening in the world, and you know, you you don't have that capacity, not one person has the capacity to to drive complete change. And um, I like that the work that reconnects really um emphasized that everyone has a role, but no, no one person can do it, and we also we can't predict the outcome. So you have to kind of be be present in the here and now and and enjoy the here and now. Um and well, that's like a life's work that I'm still very much at the beginning of.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Another concept within the work that reconnects is one that's called deep time, and it talks about um if we come out of Western or common day time frame, then we go into deep time, and so then we are connected to our ancestors, which is very important in these times, um, and to the future generations. And so we're those of us that are living, we're in the middle of deep time and future generations, and everything we do affects both sides. So, but you know, the business as usual, um, especially um uh with the ancestors, is like, oh, we don't even talk about ancestors, we don't, we don't understand that we're carrying their trauma in our bodies, that some of our illnesses and our thought forms and the things that we're coming up against are not even ours, is our ancestors. And if you're not paying attention to them, they're knocking you around. But there's a school of thought that says 85% of all physical and mental illnesses are from the astral plane. So when you're thinking deep time, you're thinking, okay, that's why this keeps happening. And let me, you know, learn what happened to my people so it doesn't keep happening to me, and I don't have to pass it down to my children. So it's deep time is a very, very fascinating uh concept, and um they're in the one of the work that reconnects activities is to sit with a future being and hear the future beings saying, Well, asking questions about, well, I heard that in your time that you were doing this, and how did you survive it? So it's it's uh it's a it's a fun way and a creative imagination way to think about well, what is it that is yours or mine to do, that is ours to do, so that we can ensure that the future beings will have clean water or whatever it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

And I do, yeah, I do love how it's not prescriptive, like the work that reconnects is not saying you have to do XYZ. It's sort of encouraging you to identify with like what is it that truly lights you up as a human being that you know is you can identify with as being like your soul's purpose here, and to follow that because I think that is so like joyful, like that practice of you know identifying with those things that you love. And it's not something that we're encouraged to do through business as usual.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

I want to tell you that the that it's really important that uh to know that uh when we actually start with gratitude, which our root teacher Joanna Macy says that it's a revolutionary act to be in gratitude, because with everything going on and all of the unraveling, it's like, well, what do you think you need to be grateful for? But if you can get your mind to go to gratitude, and even if it is just for a clean glass of water, right? Or that, you know, trees or your plant is growing, or someone you love, your pet, you know, a good meal, gratitude really actually helps you shift your mindset because your mind can't think of two, can't be in despair or anger or madness and gratitude at the same time. So it's a temporary relief of business as usual. So we start in gratitude, and it's and and the importance of it is that it can unlock uh uh your your joy, it can bring, you know, uh dopamines and serotonins, all of the good hormones into your body. And if you're always in a fight, if you're always angry, if you're always um sad, depressed, then your home, your whole system gets starts to shut down, shut down, and shut down. And so um the thing that I really like about the word that reconnects is that we we say you've got to express your emotions, and some people call them dark emotions, but they are emotions. And if you're living and you're not having these emotions, then you're not really living. But the but you can't let those emotions take up real estate in your mind or build a house within your soul where they just live, live, live because they'll tear you down. So there's this is the I'm trying, I said all of that to get to this, Sophie. So there's a Tantra side, there's a flip side. So when you're in fear, it's the measurement of your courage, and when you're in anger, it is your passion for justice. So as soon as you express it, you can flip into the flip side of it. The emptiness that you're feeling is uh the desire for something new to happen, and your grief is the measure of your love. But what happens is if we don't know that there is the other side, we get stuck in the side that tears us down instead of lifts us up and motivates us to find out what is it that is yours to do.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Ah, that is like medicine to my well-being.

unknown 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Because I like, I honestly have pretty profound grief of recent times and pretty profound anger.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So it's your passion for just justice and the measure of how much you love. And so that's why you have to express it so that you can get to the other side. But what happens is that people don't know that there's the other side and they just keep expressing, and it spirals them down. So the spiral, you start with gratitude, you express your anger, your grief, your emptiness, your fear, and then you can do the you flip over, and then you say, Well, now I'm seeing that I I love so much that you know uh I have this courage. And there's there's this space in me that's completely empty, and I can feel it, fill it up with stuff that is gonna make me have some hope.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

So and so we've covered, I guess so. We're we're touching now on the spiral. Um, I guess we've touched on the first sort of element of the spiral, which is gratitude. Um, could you tell us a little bit just just just before we dive into the other elements, just a little bit about how the spiral works? Like what are the sort of how do you use the spiral in your work and your everyday life? What how yeah, how does it work?

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Yeah, yeah, the spiral has turned out to be very interesting. I do a lot of coaching, and sometimes it's I'll say, okay, well, let us start with grief. And then I'll say, well, what's breaking your heart today? And then after people talk about that for a while and said, Well, now that you've been able to express that, what what do you know now? What can you see that's new? And then what are you willing to do? And in the coaching, it's like until we meet next week, you know. So it really does work. And oh, there's somebody in that's a graduate from the uh the facilitation development program that um I'm a part of who just put um the spiral dimensions to a breaking up process. Oh, wow. In relationships, and it can be used in every situation, it can be used in a team meeting, like, okay, we're getting ready to, you know, do some team building or strategic planning or visioning, but let's each one say what you're grateful for, break out into dyads, um, if it's a big group, and just tell this other person what what's breaking your heart, and now are what are you willing to do and see? And then what are our steps? It it's a beautiful, beautiful process.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

So would you say it's kind of like a a framework like that that's been developed like through through this work that reconnects and that can be applied to like um an individual sort of issue or or a person's experience or or worked through like as a group to to reach a different a different outcome than the outcomes that you have been reaching through the business as usual approach?

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Right. The magic of it is the second piece where you actually you have permission to express your anger anger.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

And so what do you view with that expression of pain? Like what is what to you is the kind of the genius in expressing your pain? Like what does that unlock for people? Well, it gets it up and out of you.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

If you're if you're sad and you're or you're angry and you you're not saying it, it's just stuck inside of you. So it voicing it brings it up and out of you. And and it goes along with some other schools of thought, like you're as sick as your secret. So if you are really over there fuming about something and you don't have you can't tell anybody, then it's just making you sick.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

So the expression, and like in some other cultures, people are allowed and have permission when someone dear to them dies, that they can walk around and in public and scream and cry, and people will just say, Oh, they lost their baby, or they lost their husband. But if you do that where I live, or you know, in any big city that doesn't have that indigenous wisdom that grief is real and you've got to express it, you know, and and sometimes people in some cultures they grieve for three months, a year, in a specific way. But we just like, oh, all right, so sorry that happened. You don't have to tell me about it. Let's just go have a drink, right? Or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, that's that's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Somebody that's gonna listen to you just bear witness to what is really on your mind. And so in the work that reconnects, there's a process called the truth mandala, and it's a it's a one of the exercises where you can actually express um these emotions. And um I did it for JFK University, and the professor that I did it with his students, he was he was like, he's a therapist too. Uh he was like, he didn't like it because the way that it was designed is like you've got a whole group and one person goes in the group at a time. And then he was saying some of the people were just in there showing off, you know, like he really didn't like it. Um, and even if you and when you create the ritual, even if you don't go in it, it is amazing how much discharge you get with someone saying, God damn it, I'm so fucking hit, you know. You're like, you know, it's very provocative. So what I did is I redesigned that one so that we're a group of people, and there are these four corners. There's one for grief, one for anger, one for emptiness, and one for despair. And then I and then I say, Well, it's gonna start, so you go to the one that you're in, and we do it all together. That's awesome. So, yeah, so that's the other beauty about the work that reconnects, it's open source, so you can get do any of the exercises any the way that you want to that fits your group. So it's not like you know, and it's open source because um it's not original in uh material, it's all been taken from different places, which I think is great and adds to like it just adds to the intelligence of the body of work, like having multiple sources, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Yes, it's just coming from one person, there's other perspectives that aren't included in it. So I think that's that's really cool. So we've sort of spoken about that the spiral. So we we start at a place of gratitude and then we express our pain, no matter like being whatever that might be for you at the time. And there are a number of um exercises in the books and also online um for people if they'd like some guided exercises about how to do this. And then the next step is moving forth. Is that no? It's seeing with new eyes. Oh, seeing with new eyes. Sorry, that's right. Yes, so could you tell us about seeing with new eyes?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yes, well, seeing new eyes is I don't know if any any of all the listeners or you yourself have had the opportunity to actually feel so much hurt about something, and then nobody to talk to about it, and then after you have a session with the counselor or your one of your beloveds just gives you the attention so you can express it, then you it gets up out of you, and then you feel liberated, like, oh my god, I just lost 20 pounds of grief. Yeah, yeah, and and then so you can see with new eyes. That means that you've cleared your internal channel, and now you have the opportunity to make another choice, to see something differently.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Uh, I can share just just in my orange. I've only really run through the spiral once, um, and it was when I was doing a Right Livelihood session with uh Della Duncan. And um, so she she's a really like powerful activist. And um, yeah, she ran through, she's I think she uh she's a work that reconnects facilitator as well. And she ran through the spiral with me because I was having to return sort of to conventional employment, and I felt a lot of like internal suffering because um I felt like maybe that wasn't aligning with with my sort of purpose, maybe that was um gonna take me away from moving things in the right direction. And we ran through the spiral together. And after I went through the pain part where I just like dumped all of my worries and cried and, you know, did all that. And then yeah, and then she sort of said, okay, like now we're going to move into the scene with new eyes. And so now that we've expressed that, can you talk a little bit about, you know, how you feel about it now? Do you see what do you see as roads or paths that you could take now? And it was very, very interesting because you know, a really clear, um, clear set of things that I could do in that specific situation um came into my mind that had not come into my mind before. And it and it was really awesome because it kind of um it got me to a place where I felt like like I have to make money to survive in the world right now, unfortunately, because we can't live without without money. So I, you know, I but I could do it in a way that actually was aligned with my my own ethics and values, and and that all came through through that process. So that was really helpful. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

You just talked about the fourth step that so going forth, because you had all those things that came into your mind that weren't there before, then you can pick and choose which ones you're gonna want to do or what step you what what order you're gonna do them. So then you have a kind of like a plan. And so um in the work that reconnects, though, there are dimensions of the great turning, and those dimensions um are um actions to slow down the damage to the earth, and um taking an analysis of the structural causes and the creation uh of structural alternatives, which is you know, really looking at systematic oppression or the way that we're using fossil fuel that is destroying the planet, and then coming up with alternative structures. And the last one is the shift in consciousness. So going through the spiral gives you a shift in consciousness. Um and then um there are these uh these actions that you can take, like a holding action. And you know, like it's for the activist that wants to go out and you know um target a company that might be investing in uh fossil fuel or you know, in something that's destroying. But the way that I do the work, I'm like, that's really great to be able to be an activist and go out there and march. And but what about healing or talking or forgiving or talking to someone that you haven't talked to in 20 years, that's your relative. Like, call your mom.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Yeah, and that that's what I think is really, really cool. And I did want to touch on this with you because I my personal view is that before I identified um as an activist, I um I felt quite disempowered. And um uh through my own sort of experiences and and passion that I uncovered, like about wanting to like make positive change and stop sort of environmental destruction, um, like I identified as being an activist and somebody that could create change. And like that gave me a lot of agency. But I think a lot of people hold back from identifying as an activist because they they think that activism is quite narrow in how you can be an activist, in that, like you said, the holding actions. I think a lot of people think, okay, the only way that I can be an activist is if I'm saying chaining myself to a tree or a bulldozer, or I am like organizing a protest. And sometimes like people can't always do that. There are other factors that come into their life. So that's what I found really um cool about the work that reconnects breaking down the kinds of critical activism that you can do, because like you say, it is a lot broader, and there are a lot of different ways that you can be an activist in the world that you can kind of work with what you have to do to make great change.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Yeah. And so I I really love the way you said it, and I'll just phrase it a little bit different. So if the work because the work reconnects you with yourself, with other people, and with nature, and let's just say you are unaware of environmental crisis that we're in, but now you know about it, and you know that you've been grieving something, but you can't put your finger on it, and then you look at you look around and you're not composting. You know, or you know what I'm saying? Your garbage is piles and piles of stuff, so you could the uh a An action could be, I'm going to start reducing my blueprint. I'm going to start composting. I'm going to start, you know, uh stop buying plastic. I'm going to do, you know, it's it could be very, very um simplistic and simple.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

And in terms of the work as well, um, I'm not like super brushed up on how this all works, but there's like a focus on um deep ecology and the interconnectedness of all things. And um, I recall like reading about um, you know, the smallest of actions, you know, can have tremendous ripple effects. And I was wondering, is could you speak a little bit about that aspect of of the work, like the the deep ecology and the interconnectedness of all of life forms? I anything that comes to mind just about that area.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

And and it's part of why I really love the work that reconnects because I'm really a nature girl. And um, we really encourage people to reconnect with nature, like you know, uh some people really fear nature, like I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna get a germ from the bugs, you know. Like well, if you are out and you're in fear, then that you're gonna meet that fear. But if you are looking at that, our bodies are nature itself. The blood is the water, the organs, the physical body is the earth, we're breathing the air, you know. So uh it's very interesting to begin to think about the fact that we don't even think of ourselves as natural as nature, and so once you do that, um if you go outside and sit next to a tree and ask a question, you'll get an answer because everything is alive and everything is intelligent, and so it gives you a new relationship with your own body, and it actually gives you so many connections and teachers, and you know, you can I do solo vision quest, and when I first get out there coming from the city, there's a little you know trepidation, but by the second, third day, the environment is taking care of me because I'm not fighting it, and I'm not trying to take dominance over it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

That's right. It also helped me to understand as well, um, just what you were sort of saying is we don't even view ourselves as natural, you know, we view ourselves as separate and individual from like nature, um, in the business as usual story. And I think um, understanding that, you know, we are just deeply connected and come from all the same elements as all the other living things, that it is it made me feel like solace because some of the grief, anxiety, and depression that I was feeling wasn't just coming up in me for no reason alone. Like it's my body interpreting, you know, the what's happening around me. Like my body is like interpreting that data and it can sense that, you know, we are causing harm and we are causing destruction because like I'm quite sensitive, you know, to seeing things in the environment. Like I'm quite observant and I can see the changes in my local area, and and so it is natural and okay for me to feel sad and grief and anger about that because it's just it's just I'm part of it, it's just an extension of like what I am, and of course I'd be experiencing the pain that you know those trees are experiencing because they're cut down, or you know, so I found that really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Yeah, so there are people like yourself who are very, very in tune with nature. And the thing is, is that I'll have to tell you this quick vision story. I was um on a vision quest, and the first day I got a cactus stuck in my toe through my tennis shoes. Oh it was very painful, and then I went on I went out solo and I was walking around, and I it started to rain, and I got under a tree, and then I saw that the tree had these cactuses all up on it, and I was like, Oh my god, because I just got a cactus in my toe, the tree's suffering, and I just start bawling and bawling, and something kept saying, Look up, look up. And because it was you know dry and all cactus-y down, and I looked up and there were all these beautiful leaves, and so it was the spirit was saying to me, look up, the tree is happy, you know. Yeah, keep looking down, you know, and and it's and it's in harmony with that cactus. I wasn't, you know. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, you know, it's those kind of experiences that um we always encourage people to find a sit spot, which is a place in nature where you just go and sit. And you can even do it in your own house if you can't go outdoors and watch your plant grow. Plant a seed, watch it grow, because everything is organic, regenerating and moving. But if you're stuck on decay, then that's all you're gonna see. So, not that the things don't decay and die, but why that's dying, something else is over there is growing. And that is the that the it opens up your your energy so that you don't always have to be in the despair.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Something that I found really like quite, I don't know, it just really hit home with me was when um I read um about the Shambhala warrior prophecy um in in the book Active Hope. Um and I was wondering, is could you share the Shambhala warrior prophecy with with the listeners?

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Well, I I'm gonna only do my version of it. Yeah. Um, and basically is that that there are a group of people, and I'm gonna say it's the activists in the world, who realize that something needs to be done and they decide that they're gonna do it, and that they're gonna dedicate their life to it. That is, you know, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be quiet about uh the destruction of the planet, the oppression of people. You know, I'm going to commit my life to it. And and you're not alone because there's all of these warriors that are here just for that. Yeah. So that's how I interpret it.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

Oh, I did I really loved it. I don't know, I just it really sort of hit home with me and made me feel like, ah, yes, like that's what that's what I'm here for. That makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

So say what, say, say and in your own words that made sense. Share your story about how you make sense of it.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Well, I'll probably butcher it, but I guess I I read about it in the book, Active Hope, and um it was Joanna Macy. So she I I'm not sure the exact spiritual teacher that she sort of originally heard it from, but um, it was sort of like an ancient prophecy that was recounted to Joanna Macy that she's put in this work because it really sort of hits to the core of the work. Um, and that it was, yeah, there there is a core group of people like present in the world who have been called forth to be here at this time because they have unique gifts and offerings that they can bring to to help to direct the course of of life on earth in the direction that it needs to go, um, in the sort of natural evolution of like all beings. And that we will have like we'll have intense like difficulties and we will be brought forth into the institutions right, you know, in the lion's den where we have to like stand up against people who who seemingly have more power and more authority, but and we will seem insignificant when we come to that point, but um you have inside of you like all of those core strengths because you're here for that purpose, and you just have to draw on those strengths and what will be will be. And that's like how I interpreted it.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Yeah, yeah, perfect. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Yeah. Um something that that really like for me, I have experienced, and I'd love to just hear you speak to it a little, is that um, so as an activist in a world that's like hyper focused on individualism, sometimes um when we have that mind frame, that business as usual mind frame, or we're coming into the great unraveling mind frame, we can become overwhelmed by the amount of change that has to happen. And we can feel like a super heavy weight like rests upon our shoulders, you know, that us only is an individual, you know, how am I going to change the direction of like humanity? And I was interested to hear like how does the work that reconnect frame like solutions and the role of the individual versus the collective, like in the great turning? Is it on the individual shoulders? How how does that the sort of solutions get talked about?

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Yeah, um, well, the in the work that reconnects, there's a lot on systems theory. And so the the way that I think about it is you can think of four circles. The small inner circle is intra-personal, the next one is interpersonal, the next one is community, society, and then the larger one is global. And everything that you do in the intrapersonal affects intra, your community, the society, and the global. So we're in one system, and everything is interrelated and it all works together. So if you decide that you're gonna heal your relationship with your family, I'm I don't know why else, you know, you know, with your community, and you work on that, you are affecting the whole system because you're a part of it. So that's how I think of it. Like you can start with, you know, a holding action in the community against you know, people who you know are um not supporting the homeless, or you can start start by supporting the homeless. It's gonna affect you. Whatever you do, it's gonna affect you, it's gonna affect your relationship, it's gonna affect the community and at the larger. So some people really need to start so that they don't lose themselves. Oftentimes, people who become activists are outward focused, they don't look in. They feel tremendous, but they don't realize that that they have agency over how they feel, so they're just feeling bad and they want to do something instead of sitting down and meditating and figuring out how do I shift my energy so I'm not the one that's bringing the poison into the room. Yes, yeah. Through my anger, you know? So it's all together, it's not separate.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

So I wanted to ask you um second-last question, just throughout your your time as a work that reconnects facilitator, have you witnessed any profound moments that have stuck with you or really just inspired you to keep on with this journey?

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Yeah, um, there's been lots of really joyful moments. Uh, because oftentimes when you're doing a work that reconnects workshop, even if it's online, people come and they are heavy and you know, their shoulders are drooped, they're just miserable. And then when they leave, they're like, you know, I'm ready, you know. Yeah, yeah. And and uh yeah, it's the body of work really supports people coming into their own agency and to their own power. So we talk a lot about instead of power over, we were doing power with. And so when you are sharing the power, people will pick up, pick it up, and it becomes evident right in the moment. And so, yeah, and then you know, I opened by telling the story of me really losing um my juice, my desire to live, my ability to uh celebrate anything, and once I was really able to grieve the loss of my nephews, I was able to get my juice back, and um yeah, so in even my own story inspires me. Yeah, because I I was really going down very fast, down a rabbit hole of despair. And once I got to express my grief, um it just, you know, it's you know, I know that the life is worth celebrating. And I love the Tantra side. I'm always looking for um finding courage inside of myself and encouraging people to be courageous and uh doing what you love, using love as the new APP, uh, you know. Uh and you know, I believe that the healthier that we are, we have a full range of emotions. So it's not like you're never gonna get mad again, but when you do get mad, you just are mad in the moment as an expression, and then you go ahead and do what you need to do because you're expressing it. You don't, oh I nobody's gonna care. I why am I expressing? You know, it's it's it's not a defeatist attitude.

SPEAKER_03 59:13

Well, I I really thank you like so much for coming on and like sharing this information with people because I I think that so many people haven't come across this body of work, and it's really powerful, it's very, very helpful to to as like a framework um for people like myself who want to do something, but kind of just blindly trying to make change. Um, and you can sometimes go into ways that you're trying to make change in way in ways that aren't good for you inside, or um, like you described with um other activists, um, and just in ways that can lead you to burn out. So it's just such a useful um resource to draw upon and to help you just continue your activism and not to burn out. Um, so I really yeah, thank you for coming on. And I just wanted to ask you if the listeners wanted to learn more about you individually um and the services you provide, and also about the work that reconnects, where should they go?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

For me individually, you can go to my website. It's uh www.mutimaimani.com. There is um the work that reconnects.org, which is the uh international network, and then there's the spiral journey uh net uh website, also.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:34

Awesome. Yeah, there's quite a few resources and they have heaps of um information there that you can use. I also read the the two books, Active Hope and Coming Back to Life, which um are awesome places to start to for people who just want to get reading about the content and and some of the practices that they can implement. Well, thank you everyone for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. And if you did, um yeah, tune in for next week. I loved speaking with John. And um, yeah, we had some like really cool revelations that came up through the conversation. So yeah, I recommend you check that out. And if you liked listening, it'd be um really great if you could leave a five-star review or written review on Apple Podcasts because that just helps to um to boost this podcast up in the chat so other people see it in their feed, and it's helpful if you have social media to just share it around if you enjoy it. Because I don't advertise, I I'm not doing anything commercial with this, it's all just um voluntary, and I'm just trying to um to encourage like the spread of information that's going to help like-minded people like myself and to have those conversations and tell those stories that we need to be telling to move towards the future that we want to be living in. So I hope you guys are doing well, and I look forward to chatting with you next week. Bye bye.