52 | The Devil Emails at Midnight — Transforming Bad Bosses with Mita Mallick

Have you ever had a boss who taught you exactly how not to lead? 

In this episode of The Art of Badassery podcast, host Jenn Cassetta sits down with Mita Mallick, author of The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses. Mita shares how she turned countless rejections into a bestselling book and became a leading voice in diversity and inclusion. Together, Jenn and Mita unpack lessons from difficult bosses, the role of grief in leadership, and practical strategies to navigate tough workplace dynamics. Mita reminds us that true leadership is built on community, storytelling, and the courage to be vulnerable.

Connect with Mita Mallick:

• Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mita-mallick-2b165822/
• Website - https://www.mitamallick.com/
• Book - The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Last chapter, which is about me, the boss who was grieving and couldn't show up for her team. And I lost my dad suddenly in 2017. It was a phone call from my mother that completely changed my life. And I remember only having three days of bereavement leave off. And my team rallied around me. I had three weeks. I go back to the office. Within a few days, my boss says to me, Oh, I'm glad you got your mojo back. And it was this instant, like there was no place to be sad at work. Like I had to keep bleeding. And I go back to this conversation at the beginning is like grief is unrelenting, unrelenting. It's inconvenient. It shows up when you least want to expect it and it will find you. So this idea that I could compartmentalize it and leave it at home and just show up at work wasn't working. And so I became the boss who yelled.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Hi there, I'm Den Cassetta, your chief badass three officer. If you're feeling drained, hesitant, stuck in self-doubt, or you just have a case of the vlogs, the Art of Badass 3 podcast is here to help you unleash your lojo once and for all. We'll provide you with tips, techniques, and real-life examples of how you can kick heads in all areas of your life. You'll learn how to flex your mental muscles, rise above fear, and turn setbacks into superpowers. So let's enter the dojo and let's get to work. Welcome to the Art of Badasserie podcast. I'm Jenna Cassetta, your chief badassari officer, and today I have a very special guest. A very cool author that I've been noticing online. The title of her book is what drew me to her, which is called The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses by Mita Malik. Mita, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Thanks for having me on. I'm excited for our conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Me too. Mita Malik is a changemaker with a track record of transforming culture and business. Her first book, Reimagine Inclusion, Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace, was a Wall Street Journal and USA Today Bestseller. Her new book has just been out just for a few weeks now and is already made. What list have they made, Mita? USA Today Bestseller as well as LA Times. So really exciting. Fantastic. That's so exciting. You've been a chief diversity officer for different companies. You are a LinkedIn top voice with over 200,000 followers on LinkedIn. That's crazy. And Mita's been featured in a documentary created by Soledad O'Brien. I love her, titled Women in the Workplace and the Unfinished Fight for Equality.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

I'm like, thank you. Like really just to remember all of our accomplishments. But it's never, it's always a little, what did the kids say? Cringe? You're sitting here waiting to get into the conversation. But thank you for reading the lovely bio.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I didn't even say where you went to school, which is like Barnard at Columbia and Duke University, you're gonna be yeah, great experiences at both those schools.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Loved both of them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Amazing. Welcome to the Art of Badasserie. And I propose that I like to choose black belts in badassery, meaning not only are you just super successful, but usually when we achieve success in different areas of our lives, it's actually because a lot of these takedowns and failures we have to get through in order to get there. So can you share with us what were the biggest challenges that you've been through in order to get to where you're at right now?

SPEAKER_00 3:38

I'll start with the book journey, which I know as the fellow author you'll relate to and many people listening to, it's really difficult to get a book published with an agent and a top 10 publisher. It seems easier said than done. And then when I made a lot of those lists for my first book and second book, it's really interesting to see how many women, white women of color, are on those lists and not that many. So just another industry where there's a lot of gatekeeping and you have to find the right advocates and allies. My first book took me four years to publish. I had so many rejections, including people say, come back to me when she has a book more like Charles Sandberg. There are too many people who look like Mita writing look books like this. Mita doesn't have enough followers. Who's gonna buy this book? There's no market for this book. And many of us are told that over and over again. I just had this unshakable faith and confidence that there was something to my first book that people needed to hear and wanted to hear. And I remind myself, like, I write books because there's something I want to teach, change, inspire. That's why I read books and I love reading. And so just that journey from the first book, and even with the first book doing well, it was hard to get a deal for the second book because guess what? Now you have this bestseller status for a first book, and people don't think you can follow that up. So then a lot of people aren't willing to take a second chance at you. And I'm like, oh my God, I thought that this would be helpful to have a book that did well. And it's a tough time. There's a lot happening in the world. I'm exhausted from the outrage we're sitting right now in 2025. And it's a tough year to sell books.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

I can, I don't think I've shared this on the podcast, but 15 years ago, I wanted to write a book and started and went to nonfiction proposal writing classes in New York, had a book almost called Health in the City. And then I started to ask people in the publishing industry that I trained with at my dojo at the time, hey, what do you think? What are my chances? How do you get an agent? They were like, you don't have the platform. And that stuck with me and it made me give up my project back then. So I never got that book out into the world. It wasn't until, like I said, 15 years later that I'm like, I need this book.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

That reminds me of my origin story of always wanting to write since I was little. And in my 20s, I had written three novels and I had an agent, actually had a fourth novel and went through the process. And she dropped me in an unkind note over email. I remember meeting with an editor from Penguin Random House for my first book. And they said we like the book, but you'd have to change all these things for us to consider it. And I was like, I don't want to change any of those things. So then I went and wrote a second book, and the same thing would happen and wrote a third. And so by the time she dropped me, I was sitting there thinking, what am I going to do with my life? I really want to be a writer, but writing doesn't make a lot of money, it doesn't generate a lot of income. And I thought to myself, I've always been really passionate about storytelling, and a form of that is marketing. So that's when I went, ended up getting my MBA and went into a corporate track where I've been both a marketing and HR executive. But that dream of writing never died. I did the first book. And then the second book, which The Devil Emoils at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses, when you're reading the book, you see a lot of fiction inspiration throughout to get people really excited to read a business book in a time when business sales are declining because people are looking for escapism. So even with the title of the book, I want to draw people in. Like I've had people say to me, Oh, thanks for recommending the book. I don't read fiction. I'm like, oh, then you're in luck. It's a business book. This is about powerful storytelling drawing you in. Well, I've been a bad boss, chances are so of you. What can we learn? And how can we stop ourselves from behaving this way in the workplace? Wow. I just have to go back. You wrote four books when you're in your 20s? My twenties, yeah. Actually, what wrote one in business school. And I have found them all recently, trying to figure out should I modernize them? What do I do with them? But I also really like this idea of bringing more fiction into business. Why should there be labels on what we think? Especially when I was writing my first book. It's a good book and it's serious and it's important, but it's like has to sound serious. And it's who taught us that still infuse humor and I would say hilarious stories, heartbreaking stories, a mix in the book, and still have it be a business book.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Absolutely. I love that. And again, the title drew me in. And for anyone out there listening who wants to who has any creative project, I'm all about fun titles. I know that the Art About Asserie book, I got attention for that book. It wound up in some airport bookstores, which is like really hard to do because it's been committed. Because of the book, because sorry, because of the title, I know I get booked on stages sometimes just because of the title. People don't even know what it is, the Art About Assery. They don't know it's a framework for leadership or mindset or could be translated to business as well, but but it's in the packaging, the marketing, like you said, the storytelling. Okay. So what did you do while you were getting all those rejections for the last two books, like these latest books?

SPEAKER_00 8:40

What did you think? Yeah. Two of the biggest rejections I had was I was able to find an agent, which you know is difficult, after like my kids are in bed, cold night emails, I finally get someone's attention who signs me. And then four months later says she can't work with me. She doesn't think I'm the right person to represent, or this is for my first book. And I was like, oh wow. So then I start the process again. No, no, she just said, I just don't think as this proposal shaping up, I'm the right person. And I was like, okay, very interesting. Yeah. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna try to stop chasing people who don't want me. They don't want me, and yet you keep chasing the same people over and over again. And so if someone says to you they can't represent you, I'm not about to change their mind when we work together for three to four months. And then when I did reach back out and say, hey, my book's published, she was like, wow, that was fast. Congratulations. So, you know, we left the relationship on good terms. I then ended up signing with Josh Getzler of H E Literary. We've had an amazing relationship. He's been representing me since 2021. And then what happens is I get a book deal from a top 10 publisher. Really exciting, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

The offer gets rescinded. I never thought that could happen. I've had a job offer rescinded, but not a book deal. And so what happened was it was all signed, it was ready to go. And then the most senior person came in and said, We've got too many books on this topic. Wow, I'm gonna stop this right here. And it had been as weeks of back and forth and discussions and negotiations, especially when you're a first-time author, lots of questions. What's your marketing proposal? All these things. And I was like in my bed at 10 a.m. eating Cheetos balling. What is this ever gonna happen for me? And I decided back to your platform piece is that I'm all about community and conversation. So I started a really successful podcast. We had 300 episodes called Brown Table Talk. It was part of LinkedIn's podcast network, which has now been decommissioned, but that was great. Had a lot of fun doing that, just consistently posting on LinkedIn, writing for Fast Company, Entrepreneur, HVR, all of those things. I just kept writing and building. And so actually, it was through that podcast that someone at Wiley noticed me and reached out to say, does Mita have a book deal we'd like to talk to? Or and I was like, oh my God, it's hard when you're rejected so many times. But honestly, I am so grateful now to be sitting here with you in conversation today, knowing I have such an amazing community. So many people messaging me saying they bought the book. People are anonymously gifting it to their bosses, which I find hilarious. You could do that off Amazon. And I'm like, wow, but I didn't have that community. And how the publishing industry has changed is that they're not gonna help you do that. The expectation is that you come with the community, you come with marketing and storytelling capabilities, either like you're myself and you're a former marketing executive, or you have a team helping you, and no one tells you that this is you write it and you're also having to sell it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

I just taught a class, actually, an online class on building your author platform with Jill of Happy Women Dinners. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but anyway, that was my whole thing, just reminding people you have to start building your community now. Whether you have a book in mind, whether you have one out in the world already, wherever you are in the process, it's all about networking, but not networking in the gross way, but then networking in an authentic way and doing it. Building connections.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

That's why I had that's why I started this podcast because I kept getting rejected. I was pitching myself to all these big podcasts, and you just keep getting rejected after a while. It's hey, I can take the reins, I can start to create my own community, right? While serving so many others with these amazing guests that I'm having share their wisdom. So that was a big motivator for me. The rejections are part of any business. If you're in sales, if you're dating, if you're building teams, the rejection is part of the process, but it does hurt when it's 17 rejections from an eight from agents, or this second time around for my second book. Yes, I did also think like you like it was gonna be easier. I got rejected from almost everyone on the list except one. And that one is all you need, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Anyway, I got my yes from a top five publisher, and we are off to the races. Okay, so congratulations. Thank you so much. Let's talk about the devil emails at midnight, what good leaders can learn from bad bosses. Mita, were you ever a bad boss? I find that hard to believe.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yes, multiple times. And I say that because when I the subtitle, What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses is I keep getting asked this a lot as I'm doing a lot of talks on the book. If there's not a static state, it's not like you are a good boss forever and check the box. There are things that can happen in our lives that make us shift from good boss to bad boss, great leader to good leader to terrible boss, all of those things. And I find that there's usually three things that are happening that really will spark bad boss behavior. Number one, something's happening in the market. Oh, by the way, we're in the US right now, government shut down tariffs, there's pressure on the business, bad boss behavior is going to come out. You don't have a better example. You don't know what good leadership looks like. You start absorbing some of the bad boss behaviors. And then the third is there's a personal life quake that happens, something devastating, miscarriage, divorce, breakup, you lose someone you love, you're sick, someone's sick, you're moving. Grief is unrelenting, unrelenting. Grief shows up in unexpected ways, and you just can't stick grief in the kitchen drawer and go into work and think, okay, I'm gonna be fine. And when you are looking for any sort of control in your life and you've lost it, where's the easiest way to find control? If you're a boss and you have any kind of power in your organization, you can start to control your team and that can feel really good in the moment. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

And for anyone listening who's not necessarily a boss at work, this we're all leaders, right? We lead our households, we lead our families, friends, communities.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

And you probably do lead someone or something at work. I absolutely think so. If someone was asking me about clients, right? That's really interesting. Good client, bad client, right? I think this goes back to just human behavior. And people say to me, Why do bad bosses exist? What happens? And I just went through all the different things that can happen. But ultimately, it's that all these things that these 13 bad bosses have in common that I profile is that they all are hurt on some level. Something is happening to them and they're lashing out in ways that are either extreme behavior, or if you worked for me a few many, a few years ago and you're listening, I'm sorry, I was micromanaging Mita. There's like extremes of how this behavior can show up for sure. How did it show up for you when you said you weren't such a great boss at times? Micromanaging. The probably the first moment in my career, and I find this a lot when I'm coaching leaders and coaching CEOs, executives, is that moment that we go from individual contributor to leading a team in the workplace. The first time I was promoted, I remember I got an upgraded from a cubicle to like a half office. I get a fancy title and it's, hey, now you're in charge of all these people. And you're like, is there a manual? A lot of companies don't provide that support. What happens is no one taught me that it's not my job to do your job. It's my job to coach you, teach you, train you, and your value changes, right? Because all of a sudden I was an individual contributor. I had all these checklists and I get to get stuff done and my value is concrete. But now I have to teach you and five other people what I know how to do well. But that value is now different. It's no longer a checklist. It depends on how I can help you with your output. And that's very different. And it's a really hard transition. And I don't think our organizations on a whole do enough to help people with that.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

You're absolutely right. Leadership training should be inherent in all companies that are promoting people to leadership positions.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

It's the first thing that's cut generally. It's like one of the first, right? That and the fancy snacks and the happy hours, but it's also all leadership training. We're gonna cut that for this year, at least in some of the organizations I've worked in over the years.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

And now DEI and ERGs and all of that, the money's being cut as well in a lot of places, yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

It's the market is just a lot happening, is what I will say, geopolitically, and then also in the US. And it's all impacting how leaders are thinking about budgets. And at the end of the day, we're all in the business of selling something. So the question is how much of are you able to sell of what you need to sell, and what are the trade-offs and choices you have to make?

SPEAKER_01 17:40

That's okay. I'm looking from the outside in. Okay. With that said, you said in your book there's lots of stories of bad bosses. Which is your favorite story from the book?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

I don't know if it's my favorite, but it's one that it's still I'm baffled by. So I have nicknamed all my bad bosses. And the reason I do that is I'm not interested in shame, will people know who they are? And I'm like, no, I don't think so. And there's probably three bosses in the book. If they knew who they were, I'd be fine with that because they're pretty specific. And I hope they're actually good leaders today. And this is the story of working for Medusa. So no one at this point in my life, not my parents, not my brother, not my husband, I certainly didn't tolerate this behavior from friends. No one had ever screamed and yelled at me. And I go to work for Medusa, I am voluntold, I am moved onto her team. This happens in large organizations. I'm not interested in working for her. I make that clear because she has a reputation that precedes her. And immediately when I give that feedback, I am nicknamed a troublemaker, potster, detractor, all those things. She was the boss who screamed and yelled at everyone privately, publicly, humiliating, berating, equal opportunity bully. She went after everyone. She would throw tantrums like a toddler. I did not have children at this point, but I now understand that behavior. She'd throw pens in the conference room. She threw a Chanel shoe at a colleague, true story. And I showed up to work every day scared. And so what's really interesting is that fear drives short-term results. And I live in New Jersey. We were talking about this before we're getting to know each other. And it's like when I get that WhatsApp message, there's a black bear in the neighborhood. You have this like visceral reaction. Is it in my backyard? Is it in the trash? Is it on the deck? Oh my God, what are we going to do? So that energy of am I gonna fight, flight, what am I gonna do? Imagine you go through that every day at work. And so what happens is at first you think you can outwork the bully. So I'm like, I'm just gonna do my best. I'm gonna exceed the KPIs. I'm gonna make her like me. It didn't matter. She was gonna come after me anyway. So then what happens? That level of adrenaline rush, it's exhausting. You can't keep it up. So then you start to get tired from being so scared and you start to go under the radar. You start to do a little less work. You start to slowly get disengaged, and it's like that flame in the candle, it starts to flicker out. And what I still can't understand to this day is how leaders don't understand that fear kills culture in the long term. And when I go back to the history of Medusa, she was leading a team of about a dozen people. And over that course of, I want to say about a year and a half, everyone left that team. And then they moved her to run another team, similar size. And that's when I and other people were told to move to that team. And then what do you think happens fast forward in the story? Same thing. I ended up leaving as well. Most of the team was gone. And so that to me is like, how do we still allow that behavior to go on in our workplaces in 2025? And I know somebody who's listening today is going through this, and my heart breaks for them. It's just not acceptable that we have systems and structures that also protect this behavior.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Wow, it's amazing. Also, that you've never been yelled at because I grew up in an Italian-American household. So there was a lot of yelling, there was a lot of screaming, which I can imagine not having that, and then all of a sudden being yelled at by your boss would be crazy. And then I worked in restaurants and there was a lot of like abusive and toxic behavior in restaurants.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

I think everyone has a different cultural perspective and point of view on how they were raised and the household and environments, and then also whatever that is, but to be in a workplace where you're being treated like that, and you think, you know, the person who's doing it also thinks it's acceptable because they pay you once every two weeks. A company pays you. So it is like a permission to treat you that way when it's absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And I think that's really important to point out. Okay, obviously yelling at someone is not okay. And we shouldn't accept that. What are some other behaviors that are either highlighted in your book or that you've come across in your years?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

To micromanagement a lot. What's interesting, I'm a notorious micromanager and I hate being micromanaged. This is the our archetype, the story of the chopper. It's similar to the helicopter parent. I've been one, certainly the helicopter manager and the rise of the helicopter manager, certainly during and post-pandemic. There's nothing like micromanagement to squeeze the joy out of work for me. And I just remember working for this leader who just enjoyed redoing our work and doing our work more than his own. And it goes back to the story of people not stepping into what they're meant to do, which is you're meant to lead this team, but instead you want to redo all of our work. You want to sit there and micromanage. And this is one that I get a lot of pushback on, which is interesting because people will say to me, but I have to make sure people are performing. And I'm like, there's a difference between micromanagement and holding someone accountable. You can still hold me accountable, be very clear on what the output is and suggestions for the input. But there's a difference between sending me back a document that's completely redlined that makes me wonder, why did I even try? I'll never forget a colleague saying to me, What's the point of even doing any work? He's just going to redo it. Versus, you may redline it, but you'll sit down with me and say, I want to take you through the structure of this and let you know what I've been thinking. Here's what I did tell you to do, and here's why I've changed my mind based on X, Y, and Z. And also things like, our CFO likes a format this way. I know our founder is going to ask these questions. So you're giving people rationale and you're teaching them. I'm not saying it's not a there might be moments where you are going to redline something, fine, but explain to people why you're doing it. So you're teaching them and not just doing their work.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

And again, I'm just zooming out to non-work playthings like your family and micromanaging your kids or not delegating the knife. What are you robbing that other person of?

SPEAKER_00 23:57

You're robbing them of learning lessons, maybe or giving them the space to fail and learn and to feel like they're able to own something and do things on their own with someone constantly hovering over them. And what's the negative impact on the person doing that? I think the negative impact is that there's something deeper that's going on that they're not addressing. There's a loss of control happening somewhere that they feel like they need to then dive into the details and be in control, insecurity, that they're threatened by the people around them. So they actually have to do do it for them. I've certainly fallen into the trap of perfectionism, right? And so I also will hear from people, it's just faster if I do it myself. And so then you say, But imagine if you have to do this every single time. And if you taught, told me to do it, taught me how to do it, and it took you a half hour. A household chore. I've been guilty of this. My kids are 10 and 12. And I'm like, I'm just gonna do this, it's faster. I told them to take out the trash, half the trash is spilled on the ground. And my husband's like, you have to teach them how to do it, right? And it's true. Otherwise, I'm just never gonna have their help. And it will also be not because they don't want to help, but I can't let go. And so the same thing. And I also will say to people, if there's something that's so important to you that you need to own, be clear on it. So, for example, in my household, if the trash is so important to me, or wiping the kitchen counter, or doing if there's one thing that's really important to me that I'm not gonna let go of, I'm gonna tell them why and then let them do the other things. But it goes back to in the workplace, I worked in the beauty industry for years, and that is wow, beauty industry's changed a lot, but still chasing perfectionism or the perfect image. And I'd be notorious for asking my team to pull together proposals and then changing all the images. And they'd be like, Why are you changing these images? And it's then just pick them yourself or tell them I'm gonna focus on this art and I'm gonna let you all focus on these other things. I'm gonna tell you why I'm focusing on this and why it's important to me. And then you just saved a lot of heartache and angst and like angry feelings.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yeah, yeah. And sorry, back to the example of you and your kids or any parent and their kids, what I'd seen as a coach is you wind up doing all the things because you think you can do it better, or you don't have to go and redo it or whatever. So you're just like, I'm just gonna do it. And then over time, if you live your life like that years and decades, you can have this built-up resentment. I was just gonna say that you're totally resentful. And I've been there, and that resentment then winds up exploding, probably in ways that are not even related to the thing that you're actually doing. And I had that same thing with my husband until I was like, why am I caring? If why do I care if there's like a smudge on the counter? Do it, take it off my plate.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

I don't care anymore.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

And also, like to be clear on when you want something done, it's not the timelines aren't always the same. And so then to be clear, I just had a conversation with someone on this on a work project where I'm just not getting updates and I'm wondering what's going on. And I was just very honest and saying, hey, I feel like I'm having to send multiple emails on the same thing. What works for you? Would you like to send an update once a week, once every two weeks, because I'm feeling like I'm not getting the feedback I need, rather than saying, you're not the but what works for you? And then the person wrote back and said, Thanks for being so transparent. I'm gonna send an update twice a month. Fantastic. You want the microwave cleaned? Be clear on what's the timeline. Not now. Is it now or is it by Friday? And then don't be resentful because you're watching it not be clean, but like you said by Friday, yeah. You didn't send right, you didn't say right now.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yes, it's very relatable, like I said, in all areas of life, because I am not a corporate worker, never really have been. So good stuff. Okay, so there's something in the book called the mirror test. Can you talk about that for a sec?

SPEAKER_00 27:54

I talk a lot about when you are in really tense, difficult situations with somebody who let's say is either on one end, dropping F bombs, losing their temper, getting red in the face, or completely disengaged and quiet and doesn't want to speak to you. Can you take them out for coffee, take them out for lunch, hop on a Zoom, and just say, I mean, I just wanted to check in to see how things were going. I always say facts versus feelings. Let's put our feelings aside. Let's pretend we're a mirror or the recorder on our phones and just go through the things that you've seen recently. Yeah, I've noticed in the last few meetings we've had, you've had your camera off, you've been really quiet, I've asked you questions directly, you've answered them or very briefly, or not answered them. Or on the other end, I've had to say to people, you just put your hand up in front of me, you just dropped an F bomb, I saw your face get really red, just wanted to check in and not wow. Like, when's the last time someone did that? And I'd say most people will stop and say, You're right. Thanks for pointing that out. And I've been going through my dog is sick, I'm fighting with my wife. Some things happening that they might reveal in that moment. But that's the mirror test is just reflecting back to them what you're hearing, what you're seeing. Again, as fact-based as we can be without judgment, for them to try to absorb it. And I think in in most cases, when I've tried it, people will say, thank you for checking in. Here's what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yeah, that's really great. We can do that again with all different relationships. And that is it's a technique I teach when I'm teaching like de-escalation and self-defense. So if anyone is angry, frustrated, not regulated, just reflecting back to them what they're saying and how they're saying it, and the great way to try to get them from a 10 to a 987, and then you can start to have conversation. Yeah, that's really important. Awesome. Is there any other major takeaway that you really want readers to have from this book before we start to round out?

SPEAKER_00 30:16

I will share the last chapter, which is about me, the boss who was grieving and couldn't show up for her team. And I lost my dad suddenly in 2017. It was a phone call from my mother that completely changed my life. And I remember only having three days of bereavement leave off. And my team rallied around me. I had three weeks. I go back to the office. Within a few days, my boss says to me, Oh, I'm glad you got your mojo back. And it was this instant, like, there was no place to be sad at work. Like I had to keep bleeding. And I go back to this conversation at the beginning is like grief is unrelenting, unrelenting. It's inconvenient. It shows up when you least want to expect it and it will find you. So this idea that I could compartmentalize it and leave it at home and just show up at work wasn't working. And so I became the boss who yelled. It didn't, I had a short temper. I was disengaged and wouldn't show up for days. My team would be like, Where, where is she? I'd show back up at work 30 minutes before a major presentation, asking them to change everything because I was in such a spiral and had such a loss of control, a lack of control in my life because I had lost someone so close to me and my entire life was different now. And for anyone who's going through a grief journey, is that it's a journey. 2017 for me seems like yesterday. And so to be kind to yourself, but also to others. And I wish we had more space, particularly in our workplaces, to be vulnerable. If I could go back and say to you, Jen, I'm missing my dad today. So I'm taking the afternoon off, or it's the first Father's Day without him. And it's really hard for me to celebrate my husband, but also miss my dad. That is just really difficult. And so if we could say those things to each other, then you might not wonder why I'm showing up the way I am. So when I talk about, I was doing a talk recently when people are like, Have you ever been a bad boss? I'm like, Yeah, absolutely. And it swings like this because before I lost my father, I was in my good boss error, right? I was doing well, I was flying high, and then a personal life quake happened and it goes the other way.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

And my father passed away a year before that, 2016. It also feels like yesterday. But it is, it's like these are life-changing moments in people's lives. And until you, I think, been through a loss of that magnitude, some people just don't get it.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Oh I was one of those people I didn't get it until I had to go through it, unfortunately. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Same. And that is why in chapter one of The Art of Bad As 3, we talk about building your secret weapons through times like that. And for me, empathy was one of my secret weapons that I gained from going through that deep loss that I didn't have in that way. Like I couldn't sit with people in grief like I can now. Yes. So there are always these things that we can gain from it, but we have to go through it. Thank you for sharing that. That was really nice. Okay, Nita, before we close out, I have four rapid fire questions for you. Very easy. Are you ready for them?

SPEAKER_00 33:20

I'm buckled up, yeah. All right, go. Number one, what was your favorite food when you were a kid? My mom's Indian chicken curry, which still is.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Awesome. Number two, if you could have a drink with anyone, dead or alive, who would it be? And what are you drinking?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Both my grandmothers, who I didn't really get to spend a lot of time with. Blasted for Secco. That's my go-to.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Three, what's your favorite self-help book? Self-help book. My friend Moreb wrote a book called The Anxious Achiever. And ever since I read that book a few years ago, I've been haunted by the question that has driven me throughout my life and career. And so that's been a book that I go back to. It's that left a profound mark on me. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

And last but not least, what's your favorite hype song right now? What's what keeps you going?

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Usually whatever my kids are listening to, right? Top 10. But I do see a unstoppable. It's an old one, but I love re-listening to that. And Pink Just Like Fire, Beyoncé, Who Runs the World, Girls, there's so many.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

The Merrier. Thank you so much, Mita. This was so helpful for so many folks. Um last takeaways for everyone? And please let us know where we can connect with you.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I hope everyone can check out the book, The Devil Emails at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses, Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, your local independent bookstore. You can find me on MitaMalik.com and LinkedIn's my preferred social media platforms. So please DM me if you have a chance to read the book. I love hearing from people. Thanks for this opportunity. I appreciate our conversation today. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Thank you everyone for tuning in. Please make sure you subscribe to the Art of Bad As Free podcast if you haven't yet. And give us a rating and a review. They help so much for other people to find this podcast and find all these amazing guests that I have the honor to have on. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next time on the Art of Badass 3 podcast. Thank you.