64 | Being 40: The Decade of Letting Go with Stacey Lindsay

Have you ever wondered if turning 40 could actually be the beginning of your most authentic chapter yet?

For generations, women have been handed a script: get married, have children, build a career, stay youthful, and somehow do it all on a prescribed timeline. But what happens when you decide to write your own story instead?

In this episode of The Art of Badassery, I sit down with multimedia journalist and author Stacy Lindsay to discuss her book, Being 40: The Decade of Letting Go and Embracing Who We Are. We explore why so many women are finding greater freedom, confidence, and clarity in their 40s by releasing expectations around aging, success, relationships, and identity.

Stacy shares her own journey through a challenging period while writing the book, along with insights on unlearning shame, embracing change, and navigating the realities of perimenopause and hormonal shifts. This conversation is a powerful reminder that getting older isn't about becoming less—it's about becoming more of who you truly are.

Connect with Stacey Lindsay:

• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/staceylindsay
• Website - https://www.staceylindsay.com/
• Book Being 40 - https://www.staceylindsay.com/book

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And that is probably the hardest question to answer to what do I want?

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

And thinking about women who are older than us again, and maybe they didn't have the safety or the room to ask themselves that because of the culture that was surrounding them. And it's not an easy question to ask. And I have I asked myself, I've tried to ask myself it consistently too, but for so long that was so hard. And it's hard because we're conditioned as women to put everybody else first. We know that by now, but still it's so hard to clip the switch on that.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Hi there, I'm Jen Cassetta, your chief badass three officer. If you're feeling drained, hesitant, stuck in self-doubt, or you just have a case of the vlogs, the Art of Badass 3 podcast is here to help you unleash your lojo once and for all. We'll provide you with tips, techniques, and real-life examples of how you can kick ass in all areas of your life. You'll learn how to flex your mental muscles, rise above fears, and turn setbacks into superpowers. So let's enter the dojo and let's get to work. Known for her empathetic approach, she's interviewed hundreds of influential public figures about spirituality, health, civics, politics, women's equality, and more. Her work has appeared across global media platforms. She's a senior editor at The Sunday Paper with Maria Schriver. I love that. And she was previously an editor at Goop, that must have been fun. And a TV news anchor and reporter. Stacey, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Oh, Jen, thank you for having me. Every time I hear the name of your podcast and the title of your book, I feel this swell of hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

So thank you. So welcome. And just so you know, a black belt in badassy is someone who has been through challenges, takedowns in life, and now shares their wisdom for to help others rise, right? So your book, when I saw it, I was on social media and I saw, I think, Megan Rabbit, a previous guest, sharing about your book. I was like, oh, we need to have her on the podcast because we got to talk about this decade, which I happen to be leaving in October. I will be heading into my 50s, which blows my mind. But I thought it would be really great timing to seal in the 40s.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

What's wild when you say that? I get emotional hearing you say that, and you say it blows my mind because I feel that I'm 44. When I turn 40, I thought, wait a second, wait, no, I'm 19. Or maybe on that day I felt 27. Or we have these internal ages. But again, this whole concept of time is so bizarre in so many ways. And really, because society creates this timeline for us, right? This sort of I manufactured calendar saying we have to do all these things by a certain time. And that can really arrest us, I think, a lot. And the beauty of this decade, I'm so curious how you feel about this, but I started letting that go. I'm like, I'm not too late. I'm on time in my life. I'm going to be moving forward with more power. And I I just felt that in your voice saying, I'm leaving this decade. I'm going into my 50s soon. I'm like, yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Yeah, yes. So with that, I'd love to set the intention for the episode because I think this episode is going to be great for wherever you are in your age right now listening. So whether in your 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, beyond what this conversation, what my intention for having Stacy on and for you is that you'll be able to embrace wherever you are in life's journey and really get a sense of empowerment about it. What would you like to add for the intention of this episode?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I'd like to underscore that intention. That's my intention exactly. And what's been beautiful about having this book out in the world, Jen, so far, is the conversations I'm having with various generations of women. And it has put a spotlight just on the reverence I have for the women who are older than me who didn't have the opportunity that you and I have today to talk about this and to really declare what we want and hopefully start moving toward what we really want. I've had conversations with women in their 60s and 70s who say, I'm just starting to feel this for myself. Because when they were in their 40s years ago, they didn't feel, at least in the zeitgeist in the culture at the time, that it was accessible acceptable to say, I don't want this anymore, or I do want this, or this is me. And so it's that really. It's having these conversations with women in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, all of us, to say, This is me. This is me.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

And hear me roar. What what take us back? Why were you compelled to write this book now? And what's it about? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

It is anchored in this decade of our 40s for women of this time. And I argue and I look around and I see this, that the 40s are not what society has told us that they are. We've been told for a long time this place was, this age was a sticky point, right? This is the time of predictability, this is the time of decline. If you're a woman in particular, if you're either in front of this age or behind it in your 40s, then oof, you're 40, you're in your 40s, you're fill in the blank, all these things. And what was fascinating for me is I turned 40 several years ago. I didn't have a lot of angst leading up to my birthday. And really because I was just so damn busy doing all the things that we have to do as women, feeding myself and working and all the things.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

But after I turned 40, I started thinking, okay, things feel different. And I couldn't put my finger on what it was, Jen. But I knew things felt different in terms of, in a lot of ways, I felt as though I hadn't met all the expectations that society had placed on me in terms of I didn't feel like I had accomplished enough by this age, felt like I had to justify some of my life decisions and choices and where I was. I turned 40, I was not married at the time. I'm a woman who does not have children. All these things I felt as though I had to explain. In particular, that now I'm in my 40s and I had to explain all these things. At the same time, I felt this primal urge to start really letting go of some of these stories I never wanted to be carrying. Felt closer to myself. I started feeling clearer. I also felt a lot of anger and rage and joy and excitement, a constellation of feelings. And when I started looking within, I also started looking outward too. I'm a journalist. And I started asking other women about this time, their thoughts around 40s and what they're doing in this day and age. And it was this total different plane of existence I saw that the 40s are not what they used to be. And I don't even think they ever were, but they are not now. This is a time that is a radical declaration period for women. This is a time where so many women are leaving things, starting things, getting closer to themselves, as they're saying, as we said earlier, saying, This is me. This is also a decade, too, where a lot intersects. There's a lot of hard stuff in this decade. And I feel we're even more equipped to handle it. But all that to say, I wasn't seeing any of this in the narratives. I was still seeing this antiquated narrative. And I thought I really wanted to dig into this more.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Yeah. Amazing. So thank you for writing this book because so many crucial things are happening in the 40s. And technically, what kept coming up for me is wow, it's middle age. We were, if we're lucky enough to make it to our 80s, 90s, 40s is really in the middle, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

And I see a lot of women I know personally switching careers. Obviously, this is when divorce rates, I think, are highest, is when women are getting closer to menopause, which is a fun fact.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

It is a fun fact. 70% of divorces are initiated by women today, which is interesting. And another interesting on the other end of the spectrum, too, when it comes to first-time marriages, women are waiting longer, as well as more women are single today than ever before. So it's all looking different. Why do you think that is? I think we're starting to really step into the possibility of not only asking ourselves, what do I want, but seeing that we can go toward it. And I think that is rapidly changing every day. At the same time, we live in this bizarre world nowadays, right? So you can say in some ways, women have come, we've come so far. We can obviously get credit cards now in our own names. We can get mortgages, all these things. And then at the same time, it's two steps forward, sometimes three steps backward in this day and age, right now, too. We still have to fight for the right over our bodies. We still have to fill in the blank. And I know so much of your work is empowering us to find our true strength. But there is a clarity that I'm seeing. And it's okay, the world is unfortunately, I don't, I think the world is changing, but not fast enough for us. But we're changing within the reach of our own arms and then the reach of our circles. And I think there's just a lot of power we're finding in that. And so we're seeing that, as you mentioned, we're seeing that in career changes. We're seeing that in not feeling we have to justify our existence. Because again, just being identifying as a woman, it's a daily practice of just emboldening your self-worth and justifying your existence. But we do not have to do that anymore. It's about leaving situations that are not safe for us and are not nourishing for us. And it's about really deeply looking at the ways we can care for ourselves within a system that is not set up to support us. So there's a clarity, I think we're and we're starting to really be aware of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I love that. I love that. Okay. Why do you think so many women approach 40s with dread? Because yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Yeah. I like you said earlier, and this really spoke to me that I forget exactly how you said it, but I don't want to ever take for granted that 40 is the middle point, right? Because we don't know. We've all known somebody who has died, people who have died way too young, and we mid-life, quote unquote, the middle age for them might have been their teens, might have been it's awful to think of. So not taking when we get to this age, any age we get to for granted is I think very key. But it is that middle point, of course. And the general age in the Western world for women is 80-ish for the lifespan. There is a clarifying, like a clarification that comes from wow, I'm in the middle point now. But again, there's still the old narrative around your middle age, you're stuck. That's boring, that's downhill, that's decline. It's a push-out year for women. And we see it in media everywhere. We see it in so many different examples of oh my gosh, in the headlines too. I write about this. So-and-so on getting married after 40, so-and-so on how she still looks good at 46. Everything is duck to this. And that's the part of, okay, why are we giving so much credence to these lame stories? Because they've been told over and over again. And can we see it in Hollywood everywhere? And so that is part of this big unlearning that is so fascinating about this decade, too.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Because then as I've mentioned, like you look around and you think, oh my gosh, and women doing the most radical things now in their 40s. And it's 40s, it's young. This is young. It didn't used to be. This is a young age, 50s, young. And it's about really owning that vibrance and letting go of that total made-up calendar that I had that I was clinging to. Oh my gosh, I haven't done enough by 40. I'm just getting started. I really fully believe that.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Do you think there's a lot of discourse still around women that aren't ma married or haven't reached their career peak and they're at 40 yet? And they've is that the part of the dread? Because I got married at 40. I'm child-free like you, so I didn't, but there still was that in the background. Am I gonna have kids? When am I gonna have? Am I gonna be able to? It's a constant noise almost in the background that takes up so much space energetically. So if there's any women listening that feel behind for any reason, reason, what can we share with them?

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that too. So much of the power comes from sharing our eclectic stories too and sharing our feelings around it. One thing that has really helped me, and I have found this in writing this book and doing all this reporting and all these interviews, is taking a minute to actually look at when I feel as though I have to justify something in my life or when I feel bad about something. And again, children, having and not having children, partnership, beauty is a big one too, career, all these big things. It gives me the clarity to see, okay, I am up against again stories, not up against truth. We are sold this endless story that a full and right, quote unquote, right or good life includes these certain things. And not only does it include these certain things are done in a certain way by a certain time. And these things are beautiful things. Marriage and partnership, absolutely gorgeous, children, incredible, having a robust work life. At the same time, though, it doesn't all have to fit perfectly in a life to make a life a life worthy or gorgeous. Every single life is different. And so that's what's helped me is realizing, okay, I'm up against this story again, and I need to really interrogate the story and see that it's been it has a legacy that has been making women feel like absolute crap for so long. And I can start to actually disabuse myself of this. It takes work and it takes a real commitment to the self, but it is doable and it is actual freedom, I think.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Yeah, and most works of art in general, which your book being one of them, are created from let's call it dark nights of the soul or hard times in our life challenges, bullies, all these things. Did you have any of those moments that made you either want to write this book or happen during writing this book? Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

I want to say, no, yes. I'm still having them, right? I'm still having them. But it's it was one of countless examples of this was actually when I wrote the proposal to the book and really drilling down on the things we've been talking about and thinking, okay, there's this really beautiful, proactive conversation around midlife, but not enough specific to the 40s. So I thought there's something here. And when I started again having these conversations with other women and seeing I'm not the only one, we want to talk about these things. I thought, okay, I have something here. I have something here for a book. And then I wrote the proposal and I was so grateful to say I sold it, and it was not easy too. This was many rounds and this is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, and you know the whole process of writing a book. But then the first month of writing the book was utter horror. I thought, and Jen, I'm a journalist by trait too. Words and writing is part of what I do.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Fear beyond fear, looking over my shoulder, thought they made a mistake, didn't feel worthy to write this book, didn't feel worthy to tell my part of the story, let alone other women's stories. So that was a huge dark night of the soul. And I thought, okay, if I'm feeling this again, other women are feeling this. And this is just one iota of the endless constellation of stories about what it means to be a woman today. But I do think this has merit to tell. I think I do need to tell this and again nourish other women's stories on and include them on the pages. So there was so much unlearning just in writing the book itself. Yeah. But again, every day, I have by no means arrived at some place. I don't think we ever really arrived. You right? I think we get closer to ourselves. But I am doing this work every day, this work of knowing that I'm on time in my own life. My life looks different than everyone else's, just as your life looks different in all of our lives too. There's parallels, of course. But I would do the work of getting closer to myself, doing the things that make me feel strong and beautiful. And again, I think of your work and just making us feel strong and using the parallels in how we can bring that to our work lives and our everyday lives. So I'm actively doing this every single day and it's feeling pretty good. But I think it takes almost a little bit of a dark night of the soul every night a little bit, right? To shed even more.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yes, absolutely. And we can even welcome them as invitations to look deeper in, you know, under the surface, what's going on. I think 40s, at least for me, was one of the most uh one of the most important decades as far as getting to know myself, right? And really figuring out what I want. What you said something in your book about declaring, radically declaring what we want.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Talk more about that. That is the question, and that is probably the hardest question to answer, too. What do I want?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

And thinking about women who are older than us again, and maybe they didn't have the safety or the room to ask themselves that because of the culture that was surrounding them. And it's not an easy question to ask. And I have, I asked myself, I've tried to ask myself it consistently too, but for so long that was so hard. And it's hard because we're conditioned as women to put everybody else first. We know that by now, but still it's so hard to clip the switch on that.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

It's not what do I want? Oh my gosh, what do fill in the blank? My partner, my friends, or my children, or my coworkers. Yes. And as we get closer to ourselves, and this so happened for me in my 40s. And I hope for a woman listening, if she happens to be in her 30s, I hope this happens for her sooner or 20s, right? And again, or if somebody's older, 50s, 60s, 70s, it's never too late. But as I started getting closer to myself, I started actually really getting closer to the things that I generally want in terms of how do I want to feel day to day? Yeah. And in terms of how do I not want to feel too? I don't want to go around again feeling constantly like I have to explain and justify my existence as a woman. I want to really actively work on putting some of these stories down. But yeah, that question, what do I want? Whoof. But we see it, women are asking it of themselves more in this decade. And that's why we're seeing a lot of cool change and a lot of strong declaration.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Yeah. In my retreats, I've done two so far, one in Montauk and one in Italy, because that was something I really wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

I'm coming next time.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yes. I'm trying to figure out the next location. I think it's Montauk again this fall, but I'll and maybe Josh retreat in the winter. I'm just putting that out there, everybody. Speak peek. But and I do this exercise with all my clients and every January for anyone. So if you're not on my email list, please get on my email list so you can enter the destiny dojo. But essentially it's about designing your three-year future, right? Just three years out in the future. I take, I transport people there, you're there, you're looking around, listening. Who are you with? How do you feel? Most importantly, how do you feel? How do you feel in your body? How do you feel in your job? How do you feel in your home? How do you feel in your life? How do you feel in your relationships? Those are the things that we want to radically declare and say, this is how I want to feel. And actively then making a plan to feel those feelings more often. And I think the more that we energetically put out those feelings into the universe, the more situations we're going to get back to feel those feelings. So but my whole point of that was to say that so many people have find it so hard to do this exercise or have never carved out that time to even do that exercise. And not only do I think you should do it every January, should sorry everyone, I know I shouldn't shoot on you. But I think it's really helpful if you do it more than once a year. Like January, June, right? And I try to do that for myself anyway. So because our wants are always changing. We're letting go of the I'm gonna give a quick example of this letting go of thinking about everybody else first. Was just this morning, I was like, got an email about a trip to Egypt. That is a dream for me, okay? Going into the temples, meditating in the temples, really discovering the ancient secrets. I'm really fascinated by this stuff. So here's this trip in my email box. By the way, this is how I went hiking in the Dolomites with Jonu because it appeared in my inbox, but I had it as an intention already on my vision board. There it is. And automatically I look at the dates, and it's like October, and I'm like, oh, it's my 50th birthday, it's my mom's 85th, it's our 10 year anniversary. It's like all these different things that I started to shut down the thing that I want. Now, granted, it might not be great timing for me this year, but this is what we do. We automatically go to I can't have this because something else has to happen for someone else or. It's just a small example. Yeah, but it's everything.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

We do it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

All the time. So what are you radically declaring out there? And Stacy, what are you radically declaring?

SPEAKER_01 22:13

I'm I have one thing to add to that real quick because it really speaks to me, Jen, is we're also sold on top of this idea of that it's so shame-inducing, right? If we don't care for everyone else, we have this guilt trip that's just laid over our bodies all the time. We're also sold a story, and I don't think I didn't, it took me a long time to really realize this. And this came from doing my research around my book, that it's this or that, that it's this binary. So then if we start really nourishing what we want, then we're selfish, right? And we're letting down everyone. And that's not true either. Life is so much more nuanced. And it can be any example for this too. How we want to feel when it comes to how we care for our bodies too, how we, if we don't have children, but we can still feel this motherly instinct toward other things in our life. It's not binary. And that was another thing that was really clarifying for me. So when we start to really again listen to ourselves and say, This is me and this is what I want, it doesn't mean we're not loving all the people in our lives. We can still be so incredibly giving and nourishing and caretaking. It's women, we're just shifting where we put our energy. And the beautiful thing is we do start to see that our lives open up even more, right? We get these incredible things that come into our inboxes. I think we actually have more energy to care for the people we want to care for even more when we're really stoking the fire in us.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Really exciting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Think about if you were just to be living the little, even just on a micro level, you're filling yourself up every single day with joy, with happiness, with fulfillment, with self-care. Aren't you gonna show up in the world? Yeah, a nicer person, a more tolerant person, a more patient person, a more loving and generous person. That's what for me this journey is all about.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

And so you asked me what you asked me earlier, too. And I I want to feel close to myself every day. That's what I want. I want to declare myself to myself first and foremost. And I love doing it to the world, right? In small and big ways, but I want to do that with myself. I want to do things that make me proud of myself. And the world may not even see some of these things, if not any of these things, right? It could be small things too. That's the other beautiful part about this, too. It doesn't have to be a 180. It can be. You can one day wake up and go, I'm leaving my job, or I'm leaving this relationship, or I'm saying yes to this friendship, whatever it may be. It can also be really small, quiet things. Sending an email to somebody that you want to reconnect with, right? Starting a new bank account and putting $5 in it every once in a while to build a dream trip or to build a dream another fill in the blank. It's anything. It can be these really small micro moments that build towards something. And that is actually so much more radical than we realize. And just showing up in ways that make me feel proud. And I think of my wiser, older self. And she plays a role in this book, which has really sustained me in the dark periods of writing the book. Because as you're writing a book, some days it's really fun. Some days it's my gosh, what am I doing? But I think about her and I hope I get to be her 10 years from now, 20 years from now. But I think of what is she going to remember that I'm doing now? What am I doing now that's going to make her proud? That's going to really allow her to exhale and go, yes, you showed up for yourself. That's what I really want in my life. And that's what I want in every single woman's life. Because again, the life we are leading, the world we're living in, it's hard. Yeah. It is hard. Yeah. We don't have any social safety nets, wide-reaching social safety nets. So many of us are caring for people of all different ages in our families. Yep. Work is tough. We may have more than one job. Taxes, all of it. Just filed taxes this morning. That wasn't. How fun was that? Yeah. No. Definitely not. What can we do? What can we do in the small ways to just make us feel proud? I love that. I love thinking that for myself.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Does your book help us connect with that future version of ourselves? I hope so. I hope so. Yeah. I really aim for it too. Yeah. I love that. Every morning in my meditation, I'm in the I visualize not the same scene of my future, but like future events and just again feeling the feelings of how I want to feel, which is, I don't know, empowered, peaceful. Yeah, those are two big ones for me. Peaceful's a big one. Yeah. Because there's so much to not be peaceful about. Okay. The women in your book that you interviewed, was there anything that surprised you? Was there a common theme of these women? And were they all are I'm assuming they're all in their 40s?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Most of them, most of them, but I did speak to some women in their 30s, and I spoke to a good lot of women actually older as well that bestowed a lot of cool wisdom for those of us in our 40s and who are younger. The theme that actually surprised me, and it may not even be surprisable, but surprising, was just how much women want to talk about this too. I I knew that, but I didn't realize again how much. And I think that is another beautiful part of the world we're living in today. We've always wanted to talk, right? We've always gathered in circles. This is part of who we are as women. And the world we're we live in too, it does pit us against each other in certain six situations. And there's this incredible conversation going on right now that's really helping us repair the bonds between women and helping us see there's room for all of us and we don't have to constantly be competing, even though the patriarch will say we do, and they want us to be pushed down. But we've always wanted to talk, and I just loved it. Some conversations I had with women where I thought I was gonna have conversations with experts in certain fields, right? Women's coaches and therapists and doctors, and then I had conversations with some friends and women that I was able to just meet through other contacts. Everybody wants to just get into it. This is what I don't like, this is what I do. There was common rage, there was common excitement. That was the biggest thing. It was and how vulnerable women were to really genuinely share about their lives. And another thing that surprised me too, Jen, was nothing was neat. Nothing was an easy, oh, I did this and this happened. And again, I think I knew that subconsciously, but women really get honest about yeah, I did this and it was messy.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

But I did it to get here or I did it to get closer to myself. That's another aspect of this that's really fun is that this is not messy. This is a lot of this is hard. A lot of this we may lose some things in our life, but we gain so much more by doing it. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

I would imagine that topics, major topics, would be the topic of motherhood, whether to not, all the challenges and things that come with it. And then perimenopause, which most What's that? Yeah, a voice starting for most women in their 40s, sometimes earlier, which is wow. So out of those two topics, what do you want to dig into?

SPEAKER_01 29:29

So I'm not gonna play favorites, but I architect the book and I really dedicate each chapter to one of these big topics. So motherhood and non-motherhood, and having and not having children is a chapter. And I want to read that.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

I'm gonna everyone, I the book is coming to me right now. I just didn't get a chance to read, but I'm going to as soon as I get it.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

That one, and I'd love to I'd love to dig into that too with you in another conversation, Jen, because I have chosen not to have children. I have no regret around my decision, and I have a lot of grief around it. I grieve not having this experience. I have many emotions around it. And I have felt I haven't had the space to talk about that enough. I've also haven't had the opportunity to talk about it enough with women who don't have children, not by choice. It's circumstance and the grief and the loss around that. I want to have more conversations with women who have children, and maybe they are feeling grief around that and happiness and excitement. So I wanted to really create this quilt, if you will, of all of us having different experiences around motherhood and sharing how there's actually parallels between all of us. And specific to those of us who don't have children, I want this to be a louder part of the conversation that having children is absolutely tremendously beautiful and incredible. And it is not something that is in every woman's life. And we are just as whole and just as worthy if we have children and if we don't have children. And I want to scream that from the rooftops, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Yes. Oh, 100%. And yes, I've had a long journey in this topic myself. Uh personally got married at 40. And then I actually write a very mini part of what I went through in my next book. So that'll be out in February. And I haven't really shared it publicly, but it was just a lot of loss, a lot of grief. But I was never one of those people that I wanted kids at all costs. I actually was on the fence my whole as long as I can remember. It wasn't until I got married that I was, let's see what happens. And then it was just a series of horrible things. And I'm not talking just like a normal and not yes, miscarriages are normal. One in four women pregnant pregnancies end in miscarriage, but some other dark stuff. So it was just really difficult. So you're, yes, like you just said, you're grieving that, but then all your friends are having kids at the same time. So it's a really difficult period. I would say that was the hardest part about womanhood, I think that I went through. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. For me as well. Did you have clarity around it or were you on the fence as well?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

I'm I feel as though I'm gaining more clarity every day. But I share that with you. I was on the fence. I also had a feeling that I could not find the words for, which was a knowing. I felt as though for whatever reason, and I'm curious if you felt this way, Jen, that I didn't think children were going to be part of my life, but I couldn't explain why. Sometimes there's so much in us too that we don't have a vocabulary for. And I don't even think we ever will. It's just it's spiritual, it's so deeply embodied in us. So I did have this deep knowing, but at the same time, I was on the fence because I do have this really primal maternal energy that I want to put toward my friends' kids and my work projects and how I care for the people in my life too. So it's been confusing for me for a while. Cause how do you answer somebody if they say, Do you want kids? And for me, it's never been an easy no, even though I would do that just to make the conversation go easier and it wouldn't cause the other person discomfort. But I want to be like, Do you have 25 hours so I can explain to you everything I'm feeling in my body? And then some days it is yes, I want them. Some days it's no, some days it's maybe. So that's a whole other part of it too. It's okay to feel this weird messiness if we do feel it.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Yes. Yeah. When people ask me now, do you have kids? Because hello, people, that's one of the first questions you get asked a lot as women. I'm by other women too, which is totally fine. I don't take offense to any of this stuff. But I just started saying no and smile and end if again, because do you have 25 hours? Because if you want to hear the whole story, I'll tell you. But it's a long and complicated story. It's not just like women who don't have children hate children. That's what society wants you to believe, but it's not true.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah. Or we're sad, right? Or we're lacking, or we're less.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

I love my life so much. I love what I do, and I pour almost all of my energy into it. And I don't know how I would have been doing this and raising humans at the same time. I just don't think I would I'd be doing what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

And it is so telling when we start to really look at the things that have become groat in our conversation and no one's to blame for it. It's just part of, it's part of the script that we've been giving. You ask about what do you do? And we know this too, but in our culture here, particularly in the Western, in the United States, what do you do? Do you have kids? Are you married? Rather than what lights you up? What are you excited about this weekend? Yeah. What are your values? Really considering different questions. And I'm not saying, again, I have this figured out. I still have fallen to those rote questions, but that's part of this conversation. It's just widening our lens to see there's so much more to us as women. There's so much more to us as people than what we create and if we have children in our lives and partners. But again, this legacy conversation is we're it's part of the unlearning. It really is. The unlearning. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

The Ruby quote greatest learning and unlearning. It's something like that. I have it in my book coming up. Okay. What do you okay? A lot of your book talks about this emotional terrain of midlife. How much do you think of how do I say this? Okay. You said a lot of the 40s or 40s is not a decline, right? It's more of an awakening. Would you say that? Is that correct? How much of this awakening would you attribute to hormonal shifts versus just, I don't know, mindset shifts?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Ooh, that's one that I a lot for both. The unscientific, non-medical response, a lot for both. And I'll say it varies day to day, right? So what we do know, of course, is, and I've learned this from research and interviewing doctors, and I know you know this as well, Jen, and your work, that we're changing every day. We're changing hourly as women. And as you mentioned, and it's true, I include this so I dedicate a whole chapter to our health. Perimenopause is this wild, nebulous terrain. We don't know exactly when it starts, just like we do know when menopause happens, which is that full year of not having our period, but it's different for every woman. Most, the majority of women in their 40s experience either enter it or exit perimenopause in their 40s, but that's not to say that women in their 30s aren't going through it and women in their 50s. It's also varies in terms of length for women as well. So all that to say it is, and it's so cool. It's so different for all of us, just as puberty is so different for all of us. Some of us had a rough go in puberty, it lasted forever. Some of us it almost didn't even happen. We didn't even feel anything. So it's cool to say. So my non-scientific answer to you, it's like a lot for both, is considering how every day our hormones are fluctuating in a different way, hourly, even in the context of our lives, like the stressors of our daily life and what's going on, the declaring of ourselves too. Is this a day where we feel really connected and close to ourselves, or is this a day where things just feel really rough and we need to kind of do more of the work of getting tapping back into ourselves? And I think that all goes into how we're experiencing and what we're saying for ourselves and about ourselves in this time of life, right? So it's so varied every day. But of course, there is something that goes on. Like when we're experiencing this change in our bodies, we are feeling so many emotions, we're feeling different moods, and we're also getting reminders that we need to really start putting our energy toward the stuff that cares for our bodies more and for what we really want. This is not a rehearsal. It was never, life is never a rehearsal, but it's go time when it comes to taking care of myself and really going, okay, what do I want? And then when it comes to our work, this is why I think perimenopause and work is so fascinating, because it impacts how we feel in the context of our jobs and also our relationships too. But how we show up at our work, what's feeling good versus what do we not want to put up with anymore? And what can we start doing to kind of shift or put some boundaries around our schedules or the emails coming in at 1 a.m.? Are we going to answer them to how can we care for ourselves more in the context of our jobs? It's such a radical awakening, being perimenopause in this change. So it can be hard and it can also be such a gift, too. Of yeah, I'm putting me first now, everyone. I have to. You have to.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

You have to. And again, I don't know how some women do it when they're going through menopause and perimenopause and raising young children and taking care of their career, um, aging parents, all the things, right? Um so yeah, I think it's just something to think about because I also have friends who are like all of a sudden feeling more depressed or feeling more anxious. And I normally would want to coach someone through the mindset and the shifts and all of that. And it's I'm finally at a place where I'm like, oh yeah, and you should really get your hormones checked. It's a really and kind of conversation. If you're feeling like not yourself these days, really get to a gynecologist and get your blood work done.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Absolutely. And knowing just saying that is such a gift, too. Just knowing that there are options these days as well. Just knowing that there are options, you can change things in your day-to-day lifestyle in terms of your nutrition, the sleep you're trying to get. And I know sleep is huge when we're going through these pat these fluctuations, and it can be really hard, doing things that can really genuinely help embolden your constitution as you're going through this rough time. And then, as you said, getting the reaching out to the resources that can help, whether it's hormonal therapy or other conversations, something else that may be helping you too. It's not a one size fits all. It's unique for every woman, but knowing nowadays we have options to help us feel better. Yeah. Because I know I speak very optimistically about this, and I really do feel it. And then also, too, I write about it in my book where I hit, it was for me, it was 39, and I started thinking, what the hell is going on? I was getting vulva pain, I wasn't sleeping well, I was breaking, I all these things were happening. My body was changing.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

And I didn't know yet I have options. I can actually start looking to get some support around this.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

Yes. And the earlier the better. I didn't, I didn't even figure it out until 46 that I was that whatever I was going through was dry skin. And I was like, oh, perimenopause, because all of a sudden my Instagram feed was filled with it.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

And you think something's wrong with you too. And there's nothing wrong, things are changing. That's the other thing, too. We're told, again, society's telling us you just gotta grin and bear it, smile.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

No, we're not doing that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

No.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

We are not doing that anymore. We are getting help, and the help is out there.

unknown 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Amazing. This was so excellent, and I can't wait for others to read your book. So obviously we can find it anywhere, yeah. Hopefully anywhere, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Yeah, getting it out there. But yeah, there's a link on my website, stacylindsay.com, but it should be at all the I always love bookshop.org, of course, to support the indie bookstores, but it should be where big books are sold. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Lindsay, I have four rapid fire questions for you. Right. What was your favorite food when you were a kid? Ice cream. If you could have a drink with anyone, alive or dead, who would it be? And what are you drinking?

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Oh my gosh. I'm drinking, I'd love to have a coffee with Virginia Wolf.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

What's your favorite nonfiction self-help book?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Oh my gosh, non-fiction self-help book. I've got a stack of them right now, but my mind is going to. Oh my gosh, my mind is going through. I'm gonna think I'm gonna say Jen Gottlieb's book, be seen. I've I have a lovely stack of them, but Jen's is rising to the top right now, and she has helped me with myself be seen. So yeah, I'll say Jen's book.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Awesome. And last but not least, what's your favorite hype song?

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Oh my gosh, I it's funny. Um I love Nora Jones. She's not necessarily a hype music, it's more of a calm your nervous system. Yeah, so then you can allow yourself to get hyped, but she always I always feel measured when I listen to her. So I'll start with her and then I love some old school white stripes.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Oh, okay. Any particular song? Because I have a playlist going.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Oh my gosh. Oh now I'm thinking of the raconteurs too. I'm gonna go raconteurs because I love Jack White, My Blue Veins. Okay. These are good. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Adding to the list. Thank you so much, Stacey, for coming on the show. I can't wait to read the book. And I hope everyone out there will also read the book. And just take some time today and start to embolden yourself with your wants, your needs, your desires, get really clear on them and what you don't want anymore. And I think that was my biggest takeaway from Stacy is what don't I want to feel anymore? I'm gonna have a think on that and I'll let you all know next time on the Art of Bad Asset podcast. Thank you. Any last words, Stacy?

SPEAKER_01 43:51

I just I love the work you do, Jen. So thank you. Thanks for continuing this truly. And this has been so fun. I hope it's one of many conversations we have.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

And Instagram, how can we connect with you?

SPEAKER_01 44:02

At Stacy Lindsay.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

At Stacy Lindsay, everyone. Thank you so much again. And I'll see you next time on the Art of Badass Re podcast. I love you guys.