Nola: Hey friends, welcome to the SCARS Podcast.
Nola: I'm Nola Cason, the Girls Ministry Director.
Jesus: And I'm Jesus Aviles.
Jesus: I'm one of your pastors here at Celebration Baptist Church, and the interviews that you're going to experience are supplementary in terms of providing the therapeutic perspective to our four-part sermon series.
Nola: Let's hop into today's interview.
Nola: We have with us today Dr.
Nola: Smith.
Nola: So I'm going to start with a couple of opening questions to help us get to know you a little bit better before we get started into the sermon-specific questions.
Nola: Share with us who you are, where you're serving, and how the Lord led you to being a biblical mental health practitioner.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, um, I think at 19 I decided I would be a therapist.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so that was a long, long time ago.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um now, how I got here is too long a story in the short period of time that we have.
Dr. Tom Smith: But um basically I ended up deciding that I didn't have the looks or the clothes to be a good therapist.
Dr. Tom Smith: So I decided to become a professor instead and then do therapy at night.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, that was a little arrogant.
Dr. Tom Smith: Becoming a professor was actually a full-time job.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so I didn't have the time to become a full-time therapist at night.
Dr. Tom Smith: So I studied therapy, and then I did a little bit when I could.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um, and that was about uh 40 years ago.
Dr. Tom Smith: So I've spent 40 years studying therapy, doing therapy on the side at times in various places.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um, you know, I traveled around the U.S.
Dr. Tom Smith: giving talks on this and uh done research on it.
Dr. Tom Smith: So basically I'm just kind of a recovering professor.
Dr. Tom Smith: How's that?
Jesus: Would you mind me asking you what are some of the top topics that you you had that you've traveled around giving?
Jesus: Just, you know, a couple just for us to.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, probably the one that was the uh was on abstinence education.
Dr. Tom Smith: Basically, is how to keep uh kids from having sex.
Jesus: And so you're gonna be invited back for another sermon.
Jesus: I just want to let you go.
Jesus: Go ahead.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um, but I can also tell you that uh based upon the research I did over many years, um, there's no way to keep kids from having sex.
Dr. Tom Smith: That's basically was the result of the research.
Dr. Tom Smith: No matter what you try to teach them, no matter what you tell them, kids will do what kids will do.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so they follow their heart.
Dr. Tom Smith: So that means you have to get to them early and you gotta get them uh so that they believe in it, because by the time they're 12, 13, it's hard to start teaching them.
Dr. Tom Smith: It starts because it goes in and then it goes out.
Nola: Right.
Nola: Okay.
Dr. Tom Smith: So no.
Dr. Tom Smith: So that did a lot of work on that.
Dr. Tom Smith: And but basically, I'm just a professor who did research on therapy, did a little therapy on the side, and um tried to learn over a long period of time.
Jesus: All right.
Jesus: We look forward to um getting to learn what you learned.
Jesus: So we'll do that.
Nola: Okay, so now we're gonna get into a definition of trauma.
Nola: Can you define trauma for us and even different types of trauma if possible?
Dr. Tom Smith: Um actually uh the term trauma was wasn't really something I became aware of, but then I started teaching this course.
Dr. Tom Smith: It's psychopathology, it's the study of mental illness, but more specifically, it's giving diagnoses.
Dr. Tom Smith: One such diagnosis is trauma.
Dr. Tom Smith: So then psychiatrists use a number of criteria by which they define trauma.
Dr. Tom Smith: Okay, so that has a very specific meaning.
Dr. Tom Smith: But the problem is that's changed over the decades.
Dr. Tom Smith: So what trauma is, is it's a moving target.
Dr. Tom Smith: It is not any one thing.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so for people to say it's one thing or the other, or sure, but remember it has changed so much over the years, it's hard to know exactly what it is.
Dr. Tom Smith: I think it's safe to say that it's an individual thing.
Dr. Tom Smith: Each person will say uh what trauma is for themselves.
Dr. Tom Smith: Now, would I think of it as trauma?
Dr. Tom Smith: I mean, they might say they had a bad hair day, and that was traumatizing, you know, and I'd go, a bad hair day is a bad hair day.
Dr. Tom Smith: Not sure how it's trauma, but for that person it was traumatic.
Dr. Tom Smith: So it's really being uh respectful of each person's experience, definition, how they present their trauma.
Dr. Tom Smith: So uh some extent, when people you know say they're traumatized, I'll be quiet and silent and try to listen.
Dr. Tom Smith: But um I won't really know what that means until they give me more context, until they tell me how trauma has affected them personally.
Jesus: So let me ask, we're obviously um at a church, we've got multi-generational.
Jesus: So if the term and its definition has developed, right, expanded, contracted along the way, you know, um any any any guidance you can possibly give, let's just say a parent having uh a kid and who wants to talk about a traumatic experience where they're just their definitions are just are completely at odds.
Jesus: Right.
Jesus: I didn't know if there's any guidance you can kind of provide.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, for uh a kid to say they've been traumatized, that's not kid language.
Dr. Tom Smith: I I'd be I'd be very curious, very worried.
Dr. Tom Smith: How did the how did the kid learn the word trauma?
Dr. Tom Smith: What does that mean to the kid?
Dr. Tom Smith: I mean, so that that would be the first thing that comes to my mind, because that it's something's odd there about that language.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um it might be something that happened to somebody, and they learned somehow, their friend, teacher, that what happened to them was trauma.
Dr. Tom Smith: So that that may be what happened.
Dr. Tom Smith: So it's really listening to um kind of what is kind of a normal way, you know, kids will talk.
Dr. Tom Smith: And then if all of a sudden they say something about trauma, that that should perk up your ears, because that's an unusual thing for any child to say.
Jesus: That's that's excellent.
Jesus: I mean, it's very easy when you hear a term, you're like the kid doesn't even know what that means, and just brush it off.
Jesus: But from your explanation of it, the fact that a kid brought up the term, that should raise a red flag, raise an eyebrow, perk up your ears.
Dr. Tom Smith: Very, very much so.
Jesus: Yeah.
Jesus: Excellent.
Jesus: And so, you know, um, in terms of trauma, after it's been experienced, many manifestations in terms of uh what can be displayed and what can be thought about.
Jesus: But but I want to specifically go into a type of expression or a type of feeling of loneliness and isolation, if you wouldn't mind just just honing in on that, um, and just tell us a little bit about that in terms of your...
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, you know, most of the people that I've seen who've been traumatized, they they will feel like um their community has kind of been um come down to one themselves, because they will feel alone at that point.
Dr. Tom Smith: Because I mean, questions like why me will be coming to their mind.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so that that will be just playing through their mind.
Dr. Tom Smith: They may have tried reaching out to others and been told uh basically it's that's not a big deal, don't worry about it.
Dr. Tom Smith: Or um you'll get over it.
Dr. Tom Smith: Uh so I mean, I I think Dr.
Dr. Tom Smith: Valentine talked about platitudes.
Dr. Tom Smith: Yeah.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so most of the people who've been traumatized have been told platitudes, which has unfortunately re-traumatized the person, because now they've been told you're not important.
Dr. Tom Smith: What you're saying is not real.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so therefore, you're just making it up.
Dr. Tom Smith: That will give a sense of aloneness and loneliness, because then it's with a sense no one understands.
Dr. Tom Smith: So that that that's the reason why platitudes are are so dangerous, because it leads to isolation and loneliness.
Jesus: And if I could just say this is specific to our audience, uh, Dr.
Jesus: Smith had mentioned the name Dr.
Jesus: Valentine.
Jesus: Our audience won't be introduced to Dr.
Jesus: Valentine until episode four, so hold on to that and continue to listen on.
Jesus: But uh, Dr.
Jesus: Smith and Dr.
Jesus: Valentine are married.
Jesus: We are blessed to get them both here.
Dr. Tom Smith: But but wait, let me interrupt.
Jesus: Yes, sir.
Dr. Tom Smith: She's the A team.
Dr. Tom Smith: I I'm the B team.
Dr. Tom Smith: Okay, so if you can't go with her because B is the A team.
Dr. Tom Smith: A
Jesus: She's the A Team. You've got to get to episode four to get to the A Team.
Jesus: All right.
Jesus: So just hold on to your horses.
Jesus: We'll get there.
Jesus: All right, so loneliness and isolation and that whole concept of a community of one.
Jesus: That's very interesting how you can think you're a community of one and be surrounded with a church body.
Jesus: Right.
Jesus: Or a family.
Jesus: How does what are all the things that kind of take place for somebody to get themselves in that isolated spot, right?
Dr. Tom Smith: I I think it's just a sense no one listens.
Dr. Tom Smith: You know, so people can give good advice, they can be absolutely correct in everything they're saying, but they're not hearing a word that the person says.
Dr. Tom Smith: You've created then uh a community of one.
Dr. Tom Smith: Because then no one's listening to them.
Dr. Tom Smith: And that's the probably the one thing I see most often.
Dr. Tom Smith: I mean, they're people are good.
Dr. Tom Smith: They just don't listen to each other because each person thinks they're good.
Jesus: We're gonna have to pause that and we just have to silently think about that, what we just said.
Jesus: That's that's excellent.
Jesus: So let me ask, um, when addressing loneliness and isolation, what are some healthy and unhealthy ways of uh the person that went through that traumatic experience, how they've dealt with that?
Jesus: Just some examples of healthy and unhealthy, just to so we can keep an eye on stuff like that.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, uh, you know, part of um, you know, part of the way I I'm gonna actually skip ahead to some of your other questions.
Dr. Tom Smith: Yeah, great.
Jesus: Do what you gotta do, Dr.
Jesus: Smith.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um, when I was 30, um, I, or actually when I was around the mid-50s, uh mid-uh 20, when I was about 25, I had to decide um upon a dissertation topic.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so I there were all sorts.
Dr. Tom Smith: But the one I chose was one where I could get paid $10,000 to do a research study.
Jesus: Okay.
Dr. Tom Smith: Because I was poor, I needed to eat, and $10,000 sounded like a lot of money.
Dr. Tom Smith: It was on marijuana abuse, okay.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um, basically addictions.
Dr. Tom Smith: That led me into the area of addictions.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so when I became a professor after I graduated, then um my topic then was addictions, which led me into 12 steps, which led me into the issue of God.
Dr. Tom Smith: Now, remember, I was a professor, so I looked at things um really through trying to research it, understand it, kind of reading about it, etc.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so one of the things that I learned is um remember, with God you're not alone.
Dr. Tom Smith: But and in the 12 steps, community is built.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so it's in addictions I learned what community meant.
Dr. Tom Smith: Because um I'm actually not an addict, so I couldn't go to a 12-steps meeting.
Dr. Tom Smith: But I read enough, I talked enough to people who were uh going to 12 steps and again did research on it and by talking to people and began to understand what does aloneness mean for them.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, the whole thing about 12 steps then was just having people listen to you and understand where you're coming from.
Dr. Tom Smith: So um that that's probably where um my understanding of the role of God came was from talking to people who were addicts.
Dr. Tom Smith: Now it doesn't mean that they were uh kind of healed overnight or that they became great Christians.
Dr. Tom Smith: I'm a little more realist than that.
Dr. Tom Smith: But it certainly provides uh a pathway.
Jesus: Okay.
Dr. Tom Smith: So it's in this unhealthy journey where then arrogance, pride becomes the key issue.
Dr. Tom Smith: And it's their first statement, I can do it myself, I can control my use.
Dr. Tom Smith: That's a statement of pride because by definition, and if you look at all the definitions of uh addiction, it all starts with the idea, I can do it myself, I can control my use, but they fail each time, which means they can't control their use.
Dr. Tom Smith: That means they need help, they need community.
Dr. Tom Smith: So, yeah, the issue of vice uh of um addictions and trauma, frankly, is the same thing.
Dr. Tom Smith: It's the issue of trying to control it yourself, trying to do it yourself, and failing and failing and failing, and having no one uh listen until you get to a community who can listen.
Nola: So I'm gonna interrupt you for just a second, um, and go back to um kind of getting to know a little bit about who you are.
Nola: You mentioned in the midst of your uh research of addiction and community and 12-step programs, uh that that led you to, okay, where does God fit in the midst of this?
Nola: So can you share with us your salvation story, how you came to know the Lord personally?
Dr. Tom Smith: Probably it it, you know, some people talk about a mountaintop experience and et cetera, et cetera.
Dr. Tom Smith: I'm not sure I believe in a mountaintop experience.
Dr. Tom Smith: I I think it happened over a period of years and knowing something must be happening, because um I've screwed up in so many ways that there is nothing, no reason that I should still be um be able to be successful as much as I am without there being God.
Dr. Tom Smith: And I think so I had to be convinced like any other good uh skeptic.
Dr. Tom Smith: And it was by just seeing evidence over and over and over again until finally it's like, okay, I'm done.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um I've I've been convinced, you know, Holy Spirit and God did it to me.
Dr. Tom Smith: He did.
Dr. Tom Smith: I didn't have any other choice.
Jesus: That's excellent.
Jesus: I think uh a lot of people um would share that experience in terms of I can't put my finger on it, but I was definitely walked to that point and like I'm just kind of here.
Jesus: Right?
Jesus: I'm just kind of like saved, I've just kind of been aware that of the Lord's work and so excellent.
Dr. Tom Smith: It took a long time though.
Dr. Tom Smith: It took a while, yeah, yeah.
Jesus: A couple years, you're like you're in 30s now.
Dr. Tom Smith: Yeah, yeah, well, it took a long, long time.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um professors by definition are arrogant, and their arrogance uh means that universities are by and large secular, which leads um the whole business of being arrogant and prideful.
Dr. Tom Smith: Universities means that they um it's hard for them to be anything but um either agnostic or atheists.
Dr. Tom Smith: It's just it's the nature of being in a university, it's uh it's the self-sufficiency.
Dr. Tom Smith: That is the danger of being a professor.
Nola: So, do you have thoughts or suggested criteria for those seeking um professional counseling as they seek to deal with their trauma?
Nola: How can how would you advise uh the person that knows that they need counseling to make sure that they see somebody who is trustworthy and going to point them towards truth?
Dr. Tom Smith: Okay.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, you know, it's always important to realize that there's uh a readiness for change that could occur.
Dr. Tom Smith: But it may take a while because they may be ready one day and something happens and then all of a sudden they're not ready anymore.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so that's why this business of engaging a person into therapy, it really is engaging them, because just because they're ready one day doesn't mean they'll be ready the next day.
Dr. Tom Smith: So I think that that's why the church is a great place for that because it's a matter of patience and matter of um having patience with people who just don't get it, that they're in a world of hurt, even if they're not willing to share that with other people.
Dr. Tom Smith: So um maybe the best thing that can happen is just patience with people who have problems but aren't willing to acknowledge it, aren't willing to almost become that vulnerable because it is scary for people.
Jesus: So question.
Jesus: So Nola and I both um both being um leaders within our specific church, right?
Jesus: We have kids and students kind of come to us to receive care.
Jesus: Any guidance in terms of at what particular point in our conversations, and you know, Nola and I are both trained.
Jesus: Uh, I'm a school psychologist by training, you know, just doing assessments, and Nola has her degree in uh biblical counseling.
Jesus: Um, any guidance on our end where this needs to now shift over into professional mental health care?
Jesus: Biblical, but but still professional.
Jesus: Any any thoughts on that?
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, I mean, there's all sorts of answers to that.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um I I think when it's important for everyone, including, you know, including people, everyone to know, okay, it's time for me to punt.
Dr. Tom Smith: Because the problem may be that you know, whatever group decides that they have answers.
Dr. Tom Smith: And I'm always, I'm always very cautious of that.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so it's when they feel frustrated, when a person feels like they've done everything they can, then it's time it's time to punt.
Dr. Tom Smith: Yeah.
Jesus: Now I asked that question in terms of okay, church care for someone, but I mean it could very easily just apply to family, right?
Jesus: The kids' network, uh the adults' networks, all of a sudden that support network, there is a time to punt.
Jesus: That is correct.
Dr. Tom Smith: But other therapists as well, because not all therapists are are equally competent.
Dr. Tom Smith: I mean, part of what I taught at universities over 40 years, I taught therapists how to be therapists.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so I have this, I don't know how many hundreds and hundreds of people I've taught to be um therapists.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so I have a very jaundiced opinion of the training people get to be therapists.
Dr. Tom Smith: And in the end, what the research always tends to show, it's the person, not the therapy.
Dr. Tom Smith: So you could know everything about how to do therapy and be a lousy therapist.
Dr. Tom Smith: But in the end, so it's really the training each person has, the understanding, the wisdom, um, which is why it's really hard for a you know, uh someone in their mid-twenties to be a good therapist.
Dr. Tom Smith: They don't have the experience, they they may not have the wisdom.
Dr. Tom Smith: Because in the end, therapy is not about technique, it's about the person and the person's ability to connect with other people.
Jesus: So that's excellent.
Jesus: And if I can if I can add to that, you know, I mean, um Nola and I both working in the student ministry world, you know, if we have volunteers, one of the things that we recommend is step into student ministry.
Jesus: Don't wait for your child to be student ministry aged to get ready.
Jesus: Come in, get some experience, work on some other people's kids, show them some love, uh, occasionally practice the punt, right?
Jesus: We do all that, and so you have that little bit of a, you know, um, and you'll hear more about it in episode four, that whole development of the frontal cortex.
Jesus: Get that experience as well, you know.
Dr. Tom Smith: Yeah, practicing other people's kids.
Jesus: There you go.
Jesus: Student ministry, come get them.
Nola: Okay.
Nola: What are some practical ways people can remember the hope of the gospel as they walk through a season of suffering?
Dr. Tom Smith: The hope of the gospel.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, probably it's a hard, it's a hard thing for a person to hear.
Dr. Tom Smith: You are not alone.
Dr. Tom Smith: And that's probably the most important thing a person can hear and believe.
Dr. Tom Smith: You are not alone.
Dr. Tom Smith: You're not only with God, but with a community.
Dr. Tom Smith: And it's hard for a person who's been alone to accept community.
Dr. Tom Smith: Because in the past, community has failed them over and over again, especially with trauma.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so for anyone, especially kids, to hear you are not alone is a really a big thing for a person to accept.
Nola: In the same vein, what are some practical ways the church body can help those facing crisis, pain, or trauma?
Dr. Tom Smith: To know when they're not being helpful.
Dr. Tom Smith: One of the things, everyone thinks they're helpful is the problem.
Dr. Tom Smith: Research shows that's not true.
Dr. Tom Smith: And so I think it's really to know, to be able to listen to whoever's sitting in front of you and know, okay, I'm listening carefully, nothing's happening.
Dr. Tom Smith: And that, yeah, almost here from within is nothing happening.
Dr. Tom Smith: And usually for me, it means there's no juice, not not, there's no interaction.
Dr. Tom Smith: Um, the other person seems very too quiet or too unfocused or too kind of out of it.
Dr. Tom Smith: And that will make me begin to worry, okay, what's happening here?
Dr. Tom Smith: Because usually in in therapy, there's always a sense of um that something is happening.
Dr. Tom Smith: They're having to uh reconcile ideas with themselves, which means they're elevated in their uh anxiety, if you will.
Dr. Tom Smith: That that's therapy.
Dr. Tom Smith: So when a person is being too quiet or too um just into themselves, then I'm worrying, okay, what's happening in that person to have it be that quiet or that unfocused, because that that's worrisome.
Nola: So it's it's almost like the person who has the opportunity to minister to the person in the midst of trauma has to keep their thoughts captive just as much as the person that needs counseling and and needs to want to have care and needs to put in the work to start healing um just as much as the counselee, like the person that has the opportunity to speak into somebody who is hurting needs to know, okay, I need to make sure that I'm not um being unhelpful.
Nola: I'm not uh saying things that are unhelpful and making sure that I'm paying attention to, okay, this this person's behavior has changed.
Nola: What's going on here?
Nola: How do I ask questions that are um a ministry to this person and not hurting that person?
Dr. Tom Smith: So that's cool.
Dr. Tom Smith: Well, look at it this way: if you're talking, the client's not.
Dr. Tom Smith: And therefore, I'm worried then what what are you saying that's going to be useful to the client?
Dr. Tom Smith: So if you're silent, it allows the client to talk.
Dr. Tom Smith: Just from a pragmatic perspective, who has airtime?
Jesus: Yeah.
Jesus: For those interested in learning more about um trauma-informed counseling or care for students, I will highlight an upcoming event, right?
Jesus: Uh the 2024 Hope Conference.
Jesus: It's going to be at uh Piedmont Park Alliance Church January 27th.
Jesus: Um, it's called Trauma Informed Counseling, a Biblical Perspective.
Jesus: And so by this particular point, you've heard two interviews.
Jesus: Um, we did mention last time this particular conference coming in place, but if you want, www.tallycounseling.com.
Jesus: It's a conference put together by the Tallahassee Bapt uh Biblical Counseling Ministries.
Jesus: If you are interested in continuing this learning process uh that Professor Um Dr.
Jesus: Smith has introduced to us, I just encourage you to go into that and seek some additional assistance.
Jesus: So on that note, we love you.
Jesus: We thank you for your time.
Jesus: God bless.
Nola: Celebration family, thanks for listening.
Nola: Be sure to listen to each and every sermon and podcast tied to the Scar series.
Nola: God bless you.