Nola: Hey friends, welcome to the SCARS Podcast.
Nola: I'm Nola Cason, the Girls Ministry Director.
Jesus: And I'm Jesus Aviles.
Jesus: I'm one of your pastors here at Celebration Baptist Church, and the interviews that you're going to experience are supplementary in terms of providing the therapeutic perspective to our four-part sermon series.
Speaker 1: Let's hop into today's interview.
Speaker 1: Well, then I'm going to go ahead and get us started with our opening couple of questions.
Speaker 1: Share with us who you are, where you're serving, and how the Lord led you to being a biblical mental health practitioner.
Heidi: Sure.
Heidi: So my name is Heidi Abernathy, and I'm a licensed clinical social worker.
Heidi: I own and I operate a faith-based psychotherapy practice in Tallahassee.
Heidi: And I work with all different types of mental health issues, but I specialize in helping people to heal from traumatic experiences.
Heidi: In terms of how I kind of went down this road, I think that I've always been interested in mental health issues.
Heidi: I just don't think I really knew it until maybe my early 20s.
Heidi: I say that because when I was 13, my father passed away.
Heidi: And when I was 22, my mom died.
Heidi: And really, I didn't have anybody helping me to work through those huge traumatic experiences for me.
Heidi: At the time, I didn't realize how traumatic they were.
Heidi: It was sort of just like, okay, this happened, keep on moving forward.
Heidi: And after my mom died when I was 22, I started to have some eating disordered kind of thinking.
Heidi: And I thought, huh, something must be going on.
Heidi: I really started actually trying to understand myself.
Heidi: And that sort of got me really curious about mental health.
Heidi: But right about the time that I was struggling with the eating disordered thinking, I was never diagnosed with anorexia.
Heidi: Now I would definitely have diagnosed my younger self with anorexia.
Heidi: But it was around that time that I became a Christian.
Heidi: And honestly, becoming a Christian for me was really the major contributing factor for me overcoming the pattern of thinking that was really pretty enslaving for me.
Heidi: So that got me interested.
Heidi: And then as I grew in my discipleship and my Christianity, I started to experience people with clinical diagnoses, members of the church that I was a part of.
Heidi: And the way that the church I was a part of was responding to them, you know, there's something that just didn't sit well with me.
Heidi: A lot of times I was hearing people be told, you know, you just need to have more faith, or, you know, you're not praying as much as you need to to overcome this depression.
Heidi: You need to pray more, you need to pray harder.
Heidi: And, you know, even this is awful, but I think some people said, you know, it must be some unconfessed sin that's creating these presentations of problems.
Heidi: And I wasn't a mental health counselor at the time, but it just intuitively knew that that was not at all helpful.
Heidi: And then in a quiet time I was reading, I stumbled upon Job 6: 14, which it says, for a despairing person there should be kindness from his friend so that he doesn't forsake the fear of the Almighty.
Heidi: And so basically, what that meant to me is be so careful about what you say to people because you know it could be detrimental to their faith.
Heidi: And so, you know, long story short, that kind of got me really interested in pursuing a master's degree in social work and then working toward my license and ultimately worked in the foster care system for a while, then moved into private practice maybe about four years after I was in foster care and realizing I need really to understand trauma because there were so many kids that I was working with who um were were really trauma, excuse me, really traumatized.
Heidi: So that's how I got here.
Heidi: Very cool.
Jesus: You you know what you had said, um, you wanted to make a long story short, but I'm going back into that short story, just hoping you can expand a piece. Talk to me about when you got saved because you had mentioned it was in that process that...
Heidi: Sure. Um, yeah, I was introduced to- actually my husband was introduced to a person who just wanted to invite him to church.
Heidi: And at the time we're living in North Carolina, and I was from, you know, Massachusetts, and I was pretty skeptical about going to church, being invited to church, you know, this is the Bible belt.
Heidi: And so we ultimately ended up going, and really the thing that got me were the relationships.
Heidi: Um, I saw people, you know, following along in their Bibles with the pastor.
Heidi: I saw people writing notes down.
Heidi: It just seemed to me like people were so sincere in their relationship with God, and I wanted to know more about it.
Heidi: And so I ended up studying the Bible and, you know, made a decision to become a Christian, got baptized.
Heidi: And I think, you know, just learning about what God says about me versus what I was believing about myself because with anorexia, eating disordered thinking, you know, there's a low self-esteem.
Heidi: And so I restricting eating for me was about feeling powerful.
Heidi: And I realized in my relationship with the Lord that, you know, I had access to the most power in the Holy Spirit, you know, resurrection power.
Heidi: It could take something dead and turn it into life.
Heidi: And so that was super helpful for me in my recovery from um from yeah, a very enslaving way of thinking.
Jesus: Undiagnosed, you had mentioned, but you were...
Heidi: undiagnosed. Yeah, because at the time, you know, I don't think I really considered therapy.
Heidi: Um, I don't know if I was just sort of brought up believing that, you know, if you go to therapy, something must really be wrong with you.
Heidi: Um, and of course, you know, eating disordered thinking, you know, I needed help to really overcome it.
Heidi: But I think there was this stigma for me internally that kept me from going to seek help.
Heidi: And so what I would say to anybody who might think that is please don't let that stop you from getting help you need.
Nola: That's good.
Heidi: Thanks.
Nola: So the theme of these sermons is trauma.
Nola: So my next question for you is just to help us define trauma.
Nola: Do you feel like the words trauma and suffering, the word suffering that we find in scripture can be used interchangeably?
Nola: Or are they two different things?
Nola: What does that look like?
Heidi: Yeah, so I would say that most trauma includes suffering, but not all suffering is the result of trauma.
Heidi: Um, and maybe we can revisit that question in a minute, but I will go ahead and answer the question about what trauma is.
Heidi: So I'm gonna spare you guys my attempt at pronouncing the Greek word for trauma.
Heidi: Okay, but it trauma does come from a Greek word and it means to wound.
Heidi: Um, so it suggests that something has happened to somebody that has wounded or injured them.
Heidi: The word was originally used to talk about physical injury, but nowadays, with a real emphasis in my field on trauma-informed care, it's really used to describe emotional and psychological wounding as well.
Heidi: Um, Bessel van der Kolk is a leading trauma expert who describes trauma and says by its nature it's something that is unbearable and intolerable.
Heidi: And then Dr.
Heidi: Judy Harmon, she's a renowned American psychiatrist and trauma researcher, and she described trauma as an event that overwhelms a person's normal system of care that gives people this sense of control over their lives, connection, and meaning.
Heidi: What I mean by that is this bad thing happened that I had no control over.
Heidi: I felt powerless to stop it, and then it happened to me, it didn't happen to you.
Heidi: So you can't understand it.
Heidi: So that's the disconnection.
Heidi: And then it's shocking, it's surprising, it doesn't make any sense.
Heidi: And so that is the struggle with meaning.
Heidi: But really, however you want to define it, I'll say, and this might be oversimplified, um, that trauma really is any event or series of events that a person has experienced that has had a long-term lasting impact or wound on their heart, mind, soul, and spirit.
Jesus: Would you mind uh telling us a little bit more about um not trauma but trauma-informed care?
Jesus: You had mentioned that that was like your approach or your model, or...
Heidi: So really um it used to be that people would interact with um others coming in for services, mental health services, as if something was wrong with them, instead of there's this thing that happened to you that has made this an issue for you right here, right now.
Heidi: And so it's not about something being wrong with people, it's about something having happened to people that has created the issue that they're currently experiencing.
Heidi: And so that's what I mean by trauma-informed care.
Heidi: It's just a lens people use to understand a person's story.
Heidi: It doesn't create shame because shame is what's wrong with you, something's wrong with you, but it creates a heck of a lot of compassion and empathy.
Heidi: Oh, these things happened, and that's why this is true for you.
Heidi: Or these things didn't happen that you need to have happen.
Heidi: And again, oh, that's so heartbreaking, that's so sad.
Heidi: So, what I mean by that is there are a lot of things that we experience growing up that we need but don't get.
Heidi: And often that's just really emotional attunement and emotional attending to us as people from generally, I don't want to make the parents the bad guy, but you know, in family systems, um, emotional needs can sometimes go unmet.
Jesus: Okay.
Jesus: And often don't so looking at trauma not necessarily like an illness or pathology, but more like something experienced that you're able to walk them through something like that.
Heidi: Yeah, absolutely.
Jesus: Okay. Well, you
Heidi: Does that answer the question?
Jesus: It it does, it does.
Jesus: But I I have a quote uh question with regards to understanding how trauma kind of disconnects that person from everyone else.
Jesus: How do you as a therapist establish this relationship to to reconnect, right?
Jesus: Especially if if you experience a trauma like, oh, I'm the only one that experienced this, and so no one can relate or how do you how do you do that?
Heidi: You know, I mean, for me, I just try so hard to normalize somebody's traumatic experience.
Heidi: And so what I mean by that is, yeah, it makes sense that you don't trust anybody.
Heidi: Yes, it makes sense that you'd have a hard time, you know, moving toward uh your spouse because of these things that you've experienced that make you feel like you're the, you know, most horrific person that has ever existed.
Heidi: I mean, so I really work hard to help them to know that I've heard what their emotional reality is that they're expressing to me.
Heidi: And then I empathize with them.
Heidi: I mean, those are really two of I think the therapeutic skills that are most important in any kind of uh therapy setting or experience.
Heidi: Just wow, how hard that must be for you.
Heidi: Um, gosh, it sounds like it was devastating.
Heidi: You know, things like that that help people feel like you've heard what they had to say and you understand them.
Heidi: And and just in doing that over time, it can create a, you know, a space where people feel, you know, like they want to connect, they want to move back into connection.
Heidi: Um, of course, you know, one of the big things in the field is a therapist is somebody who's non-judgmental and accepting.
Heidi: And so in my work with people, I I hope I never come across as judgmental, but I try to be as compassionate as I possibly can be.
Heidi: And that tends to build a level of trust that then moves people back into wanting to really get connected back to themselves and to others.
Jesus: So let me ask, so I know we've we've mentioned it or or you've spoken about it uh throughout the conversation so far.
Jesus: But um, what are some of the manifestations of trauma that one could display outwardly, but one could also experience inwardly?
Jesus: You know, what you know, yeah, if you don't mind.
Heidi: Um so I think that often people aren't aware of what's happening inside of them when they experience, like you said, outward manifestations of trauma.
Heidi: Some examples of this could be panic attacks.
Heidi: Okay, so typically if someone's having a panic attack, they have rapid pounding heartbeat, they're sweating, there's a shortness of breath, they're trembling, um, thinking that maybe they're having a heart attack or they're dying, especially for the first time they've ever had one.
Heidi: So there's a real clear felt body-based reality for them that people can see outwardly, but inwardly they might be having thoughts like, I'm not safe, I'm not in control, I can't handle this, it's too much, I can't do this.
Heidi: So those would sort of be the thoughts behind the outward manifestation of the panic, right?
Heidi: And then the feelings inwardly could be fear, anxiety, overwhelm, and shame.
Jesus: Okay.
Heidi: Other examples would be like outbursts of anger, right?
Heidi: Those are outward people experience them.
Heidi: Um but inwardly, people that are, you know, having outbursts of anger might be thinking, or at least have activation that can move them to be curious about what they're thinking.
Heidi: I'm powerless, I'm helpless, I can't protect myself.
Heidi: The feelings inside could be I'm mad, I'm sad, I feel ashamed.
Heidi: And so they're reacting outwardly, maybe without even understanding why.
Heidi: But, you know, based on work I've done, when we kind of investigate and go in, it's those are pretty much most of the thoughts like I'm powerless, I'm helpless, I can't protect myself, and then the feelings associated with them.
Heidi: Um, I want to say too, avoidance behaviors are other examples of outward manifestation.
Heidi: So refusing to go to a place where this bad thing happened, not exposing themselves to any reminder of the trauma.
Heidi: Spiritually, maybe being numb to reading your Bible or to praying because God let this happen.
Heidi: Inwardly, it's too much.
Heidi: I can't go near it, I can't think about it, it's too painful.
Heidi: Um, do whatever I can to not feel the anxiety, the fear, that the shame.
Heidi: So hopefully, those are some good examples of what happens outside when something inside's getting activated or this big thing in the field is is triggered.
Jesus: So I'm gonna take a little point of privilege, uh, if you don't mind.
Jesus: Nola and I uh work um in student ministry.
Jesus: So we're dealing with kids, middle school, high school.
Jesus: So let me ask a question.
Jesus: That same thing, you know, we're talking about manifestations outward, inward.
Jesus: Is there anything different that maybe as a parent or as you know, someone in the ministry as an adult, maybe maybe a kid's display, outward display or inward experience, would that be any different uh at all?
Jesus: Or is it just subtle, or pretty much you've captured the whole thing?
Heidi: Um, you know, I think when when anybody's behaving outwardly in any kind of particular way, whether it's trauma-based or or not, you know, behind the outward display, there is something going on inside.
Heidi: And, you know, especially for kids, I mean, behavior is always indicative of some kind of feeling unexpressed.
Heidi: So as a parent, trying to move toward your child's heart to try to figure out what's going on instead of focus on the bad behavior you have to correct, um, I that's what I would suggest.
Heidi: And, you know, as as we try to be parents that um want to raise emotionally healthy kids, I'll always talk about, you know, trying to recognize what's going on in in them, right?
Heidi: Like normalize it.
Heidi: Oh, that thing happened.
Heidi: Yeah, I'd be mad too.
Heidi: Then empathize.
Heidi: That sounds like it was really hard for you.
Heidi: Tell me more about it.
Heidi: And then what you'd want to do is help them deal with the feeling in appropriate ways.
Heidi: Because maybe that thing that they did that was inappropriate is a thing you're trying to address.
Heidi: So you want to normalize, you want to empathize, and then you want to help them deal with it.
Heidi: That helps them to be able to understand their feelings and learn how to manage them in healthy ways.
Jesus: Oh, that's excellent.
Jesus: I'm taking notes, probably.
Jesus: Okay, taking notes for immediate application.
Jesus: I just want to let you know that.
Heidi: I don't have to worry about that anymore.
Heidi: My kids are older.
Jesus: So let me go into um you had mentioned um, at least in uh in part of um that whole experience of walking through the trauma, you know, people may distance themselves from the Bible and wanting to read it.
Jesus: You mind if I ask you just with regards to specific to doubts, doubts that arise both in themselves, both in the Lord, both in the word.
Jesus: Just tell us anything and everything you want tied to that.
Heidi: You're talking about like the doubt in themself or struggle with faith?
Jesus: Yeah, yeah.
Heidi: Um, well, okay, so you know, all of this work that I do and that others do in this profession, it's delicate, right?
Heidi: Because people have had experiences that have been excruciating or upsetting, like Bethel van der Kolk talks about, unbearable and tolerable.
Heidi: Um and, you know, trying to understand their experience of trauma is really important.
Heidi: So I would always just say, be careful.
Heidi: What I mean by that is be full of care for people who are hurting.
Heidi: So having said that, I go back to normalizing, I normalize their feelings, and I empathize with the experience.
Heidi: So I say things like, it makes sense, you'd be struggling with your faith.
Heidi: This thing happened, and God is sovereign, right?
Heidi: So, where was he in all of this?
Heidi: Or, yeah, your life was a living hell growing up in the household that you did, with all of those mean, cruel statements thrown your way, that you got to believe you weren't enough, that you're incapable, that you're inadequate, that you never amount to anything in life.
Heidi: That happens a lot more often than not, unfortunately.
Heidi: Um, so of course, it makes sense you'd be riddled with self-doubt.
Heidi: That's the normalizing piece.
Heidi: Uh, then how excruciating that must have been for you, how disappointing, how painful, how heartbreaking.
Heidi: That's really the empathy piece.
Heidi: It's it's feeling with people that makes people feel like they're they're seen, they're heard, they're known, they're understood.
Heidi: Um, but ultimately I work to get people to engage with their stories from a place of compassion and curiosity about the experience they've had.
Heidi: I try to move them away from judgment and their thinking brain that tries to make sense of what happened, which I say is the head toward compassion and curiosity about what happened to them.
Heidi: So to feel, I move them toward their heart, right?
Heidi: Less thinking, more feeling.
Heidi: And in so doing, I get them to release the energy of the feeling.
Heidi: So there really is a felt sense of relief or of feeling better.
Heidi: And then I also help them to see that God is grieving with them the way that Genesis 6 talks about, right?
Heidi: It tells us that God was grieved because the inclinations of men's hearts were evil all the time.
Heidi: And so the idea that he gives men free will and how hard it must be for God to allow the exercise of that free will when free will is used to inflict pain on the vulnerable and the innocent in particular.
Heidi: So I try to help them.
Heidi: You know, recognize God, God, God is there.
Heidi: And God does care.
Heidi: And God, you know, really is grieving for the pain that He's had to sort of stand back and watch.
Nola: So talk to us about what your suggested criteria for seeking a professional counseling would be when dealing with trauma.
Heidi: Yeah, so um criteria for people who have experienced trauma, I'd say that if what happened to them is interrupting or disrupting their ability to enjoy life or lead them to act in ways contrary to their system of values or to perform regular, necessary activities of daily living, they need to seek professional help, right?
Heidi: Often when someone is functioning and their functioning is compromised, so they're emotional functioning, sad, anxious most of the time, angry, more often than not, relationship-wise, they're staying isolated, they're not trustful, they're paranoid, occupational, so they're missing work, they're underperforming at work, they're not doing the job that they need to be doing.
Heidi: Physically, are they losing sleep?
Heidi: Are they sleeping too much?
Heidi: Are they under eating?
Heidi: Are they overeating?
Heidi: Are they apathetic?
Heidi: Kind of, don't really care much about life.
Heidi: Um, are they isolated?
Heidi: Are they suicidal?
Heidi: Cognitively, the idea that like I'm broken beyond repair, I'm nothing, and I don't deserve good things in life.
Heidi: I mean, ideas and beliefs about self that are getting in the way of them really prospering and functioning well.
Heidi: And then spiritually, how could God let this happen?
Heidi: Or why pray to a God I think has abandoned me in this and nothing's changing.
Heidi: So, you know, I'd suggest that they seek professional help if they their their ability to really function is impaired.
Heidi: And again, you know, if there's substance abuse dependency issues and those things are going, you know, on and on without any kind of desire to try to move toward getting help, whether it's 12-step programs or you know, celebrate recovery in town, which is a great program, then I'd suggest they really get professional help.
Heidi: Because there's only so much that people, you know, can do for those that are suffering.
Jesus: Um, would you mind just talk to us a little bit about uh the concept of risk factors compared to protective factors and how you would go about maybe try to mitigate some of the risk factors or try to, you know, further reinforce any protective factors.
Jesus: Just that little concept is it's more of a therapeutic clinical type of concept, but you figure this is a great opportunity to talk to our people about those concepts.
Heidi: Yeah, and you're talking about risk factors to re-traumatize somebody.
Heidi: Correct.
Heidi: Right?
Heidi: Yes.
Heidi: Okay, I just want to make sure that that's what you meant.
Heidi: And you're right, I think that when you talk about risk factors and protective factors, it really is more of a clinical or therapeutic term.
Heidi: I mean, for me, I am trauma-informed, like we talked about earlier, and so I think of risk factors more from that professional standpoint.
Heidi: So that means that I'm really mindful of people's stories.
Heidi: I understand that they have triggers and they carry shame-based beliefs about themselves based on the experiences that they've had.
Heidi: That always informs my work with clients.
Heidi: So I use that as a lens.
Heidi: Um, but when you're talking about just someone like in the church or family member or friend, people wanting to walk alongside of people in pain and hurting, and you don't want to re-traumatize.
Heidi: Some of the risk factors for re-traumatizing, as I, you know, give thought to this, is really one, like not being interested in their story.
Heidi: So everybody has a story, and many of our stories have been sprinkled with trauma, so not showing any interest can be, you know, painful for somebody.
Heidi: Not being what I call a safe other for a person.
Heidi: So I mean, don't judge somebody or throw Christian platitudes their way, right?
Heidi: Because all that's going to do is shut them down and leave them feeling truly alone.
Heidi: Kind of going back to that Job 6:14 reference again.
Heidi: For a despairing friend, there should be kindness, or despairing person, there should be kindness from a friend.
Heidi: Another risk factor is not being sensitive to or offering empathy toward the person.
Heidi: And I've talked enough about empathy.
Heidi: I hope you guys know what that means now.
Heidi: Uh, also not understanding that people do have triggers and they do get activated, and those things can be, you know, activated, just blindsided by it.
Heidi: They didn't know was going to happen, and all of a sudden it's happening.
Heidi: Um and, you know, you might experience the activation as anger, those outward manifestations we talked about earlier, or upset, like what just happened, uh, a kind of deer in the headlights kind of look.
Heidi: So if you don't understand triggers, then that can be a risk factor to re-traumatizing.
Heidi: Not respecting people's boundaries is also a risk factor.
Heidi: Um, you know, people will disclose what they want to disclose about their story over time.
Heidi: And so you don't want to push the boundary and keep pressing them for information because again, it might re-traumatize them.
Heidi: They don't want to talk about something for a reason.
Heidi: So, um, and then the last thing is like really making sure that you don't question the credibility of their story.
Heidi: And this pretty much is characteristic of what can happen, especially in um in homes with younger kids.
Heidi: You know, child tells their mother or father that they're being sexually abused by a boyfriend or a friend, and the parent doesn't believe them.
Heidi: You know, it leaves the client unable to get help in what's already a very powerful situation for for a child.
Heidi: So, sort of to summarize, right, it's not being interested in someone's story, not being a safe other to a person, not being sensitive or empathetic, not understanding triggers, not respecting people's boundaries, and making sure you don't question the credibility of their story.
Heidi: Because if you do, that's another risk factor to re-traumatizing.
Heidi: Yeah.
Heidi: That's what I would say.
Heidi: I'm sure I've missed a few, but no, no, no.
Jesus: Yeah, that's that was fantastic.
Jesus: Definitely don't want to do that.
Jesus: I had also asked about some protective factors.
Jesus: I didn't know if you want to sprinkle some in there.
Heidi: The protective factors do the opposite of the risk factors I just talked about.
Jesus: Love it.
Jesus: That's a great summary.
Jesus: Just do the opposite.
Heidi: Just do the opposite.
Jesus: Thank you for keeping it simple.
Heidi: And also, and also learn something about trauma.
Heidi: Okay.
Heidi: That's one thing that I didn't mention on the risk factors, but to a protective factor would be like learn something about trauma so that you know you're like, oh, of course I wouldn't want to do that because that might actually like activate and trigger them.
Heidi: Not a good idea.
Jesus: So, you know, for those that are looking to um get some more experience tied to trauma-informed counseling, I know uh Saturday, January 27th at Piedmont Park Alliance Church, they're having the 2024 Hope Conference.
Jesus: Now, this particular conference focuses on trauma-informed counseling from a biblical perspective.
Jesus: I'm not too sure who the speakers are, but um it's put together by the Tallahassee Biblical Counseling Ministries.
Jesus: And so if anyone uh would want more training tied to that, they can easily go to www.tallycounseling.com.
Jesus: That might be a place where to get this additional education tied to understanding you know some basic principles in trauma, maybe even more than just basic principles, that would be a nice place to uh to attend.
Nola: So for our closing couple of questions, what are some practical ways a friend can come alongside someone currently facing the effects of trauma?
Heidi: So the first thing I would say about someone wanting to walk alongside another is watch Brene Brown's video on empathy on YouTube.
Heidi: It's two minutes and 53 seconds to be exact.
Heidi: Um, but in it, she describes what empathy is.
Heidi: Um, and she'll talk about it being perspective taking, that the person you're walking alongside, their perspective is their truth.
Heidi: It's not my truth, it's their truth.
Heidi: The second part is to stay out of judgment.
Heidi: Third is to recognize emotion in the other person you're walking aside, and then be able to communicate that emotion.
Heidi: You seem sad.
Heidi: Tell me what's going on.
Heidi: Um, and she'll talk about empathy is this thing that fuels connection, it's feeling with people, where sympathy is you feel bad for the person, and that drives disconnection.
Jesus: Okay.
Heidi: So don't, and then I would say don't try to relate to them by saying something like, Oh, I had that same thing happen to me.
Heidi: Because whether you did, whether that's happened or not, it's not the time for that.
Heidi: Because what it does is take the focus off of what they're sharing, and it takes the focus off their pain and puts it on your own.
Heidi: Um, then just be present with them and say, again, these empathic statements.
Heidi: That sounds so hard, that seems so stressful, I'd be so angry too.
Heidi: What can I do to help?
Heidi: Don't be uncomfortable with silence.
Heidi: If you don't know what to say, just say, I'm glad you shared this with me.
Heidi: You aren't there to fix anybody.
Heidi: That's not your responsibility.
Heidi: You're simply just there to be with them in their emotional reality.
Heidi: And that's the thing that makes everything better.
Heidi: I mean, at the end of Brene Brown's video, she'll say, it's not really words, it's connection.
Heidi: I don't know what to say.
Heidi: I'm just so glad you told me.
Heidi: That idea that you're, you know, somebody's with you, it's it's everything.
Heidi: So I would just say, you know, create the space to spend time with them that way.
Nola: That's a good word because going back to the story of Job, his friends started out so strong in silence and being with Job, and then things start to fall apart as they start to speak to him, right?
Nola: Exactly.
Nola: Um, you know, just recognizing and being okay with the awkward silence, right?
Nola: Because we can we can get uncomfortable with silence, but we need to learn in a in a lost and broken world where people really are dealing with trauma to be okay with just saying, I'm sorry, and I'm here for you.
Heidi: You know?
Heidi: Yeah, I'm here for you.
Heidi: Yeah, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say, I'm just here.
Nola: Yeah, so that's beautiful.
Heidi: Awesome.
Nola: Um, is there any other closing thoughts?
Nola: Uh actually, I did want to go back.
Nola: Will you spell the woman's name that has the video on YouTube?
Nola: Sure.
Heidi: Brene, it's B-R-E-N-E.
Heidi: Okay.
Heidi: Brown.
Heidi: Perfect.
Heidi: She's pretty well known.
Heidi: She's had a lot of success.
Heidi: She's a shame researcher, so she's written several books and she has a Netflix documentary.
Heidi: I think it's called Courage, but anyway, yeah, she's wonderful.
Nola: Great.
Nola: Okay, great.
Nola: Um, yes, okay, so back to closing questions.
Nola: Is there any closing thoughts that you would like to leave with our listeners for today's podcast?
Heidi: Uh no, I mean, well, I say no, but yes, in that I've said it earlier, but I just think it's so important for people in Christian communities to get professional help if they need professional help.
Heidi: That, you know, they shouldn't feel like they're unspiritual or, you know, something must be wrong with me because I can't work this out with the Lord.
Heidi: Which I think some people can really truly believe that it's okay to get help and to get it.
Heidi: People can remember the hope of the gospel in particular as it's related to suffering, because Jesus was most familiar with suffering and sorrow.
Heidi: He can empathize with our suffering, like it talks about in Hebrews 4, in a way that no one else really can, because he knows us intimately in a way that no one ever really will.
Heidi: So he empathizes with us, and he himself offered up loud cries and tears, like we do when we suffer, to the one who could save him, God, and he was heard by God.
Heidi: But God still allowed his son to suffer.
Heidi: And we understand this side of the resurrection, how much his suffering and his sacrifice means to us.
Heidi: But Jesus, in the midst of his suffering, asked for it to be any other way than the way it was ultimately going to be.
Heidi: He asked God to change his mind, but he then surrendered to what God was doing.
Heidi: Somehow he believed his pain would be redeemed.
Heidi: We can see it now and say, where would we be without it?
Heidi: So some of these references can be helpful along with assessing relationship with a person's biological father and how that interferes with someone's movement toward God, especially after a traumatic experience, feelings about dad that get projected onto the image of God.
Heidi: So I try to unpack this and work to help them know God, the father.
Heidi: But ultimately trying to understand who Jesus is, what Jesus did, and how able He is to meet us where we are is hope.
Jesus: I will say, Heidi, you know, you you're you you're you're wonderfully gifted.
Jesus: And so just to bounce off of that whole concept of getting professional help, you know, uh the Lord has equipped other people to come alongside folks.
Jesus: And they may not be necessarily sitting at church with you, they may be in the community that you're in.
Jesus: Sure.
Jesus: And so, you know, part of uh working together at church and community is uh helping our own folks and you know, anyone um just kind of make that connection.
Jesus: And so I'm very glad, very glad we had you today.
Jesus: It's been a pleasure.
Jesus: Um, I look forward to you know all the fruit that's gonna come from our conversation that we've had recorded so that everybody could enjoy.
Jesus: So thank you, Heidi.
Heidi: Thank you so much.
Heidi: It's been a pleasure being here.
Heidi: Really an honor.
Nola: Celebration family.
Nola: Thanks for listening.
Jesus: Be sure to listen to each and every sermon and podcast tied to the Scar series.
Jesus: God bless.