Scars: Episode 2 with Dr. Tom Smith

Originally aired January 18, 2024.

Join Pastor Jesus and Nola as they discuss finding help when dealing with traumatic experiences.

Transcript

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Nola 0:00

Hey friends, welcome to the SCARS Podcast. I'm Nola Cason, the Girls Ministry Director.

Jesus 0:04

And I'm Jesus Aviles. I'm one of your pastors here at Celebration Baptist Church, and the interviews that you're going to experience are supplementary in terms of providing the therapeutic perspective to our four-part sermon series.

Nola 0:16

Let's hop into today's interview. We have with us today Dr. Smith. So I'm going to start with a couple of opening questions to help us get to know you a little bit better before we get started into the sermon-specific questions. Share with us who you are, where you're serving, and how the Lord led you to being a biblical mental health practitioner.

Dr. Tom Smith 0:44

Well, um, I think at 19 I decided I would be a therapist. And so that was a long, long time ago. Um now, how I got here is too long a story in the short period of time that we have. But um basically I ended up deciding that I didn't have the looks or the clothes to be a good therapist. So I decided to become a professor instead and then do therapy at night. Well, that was a little arrogant. Becoming a professor was actually a full-time job. And so I didn't have the time to become a full-time therapist at night. So I studied therapy, and then I did a little bit when I could. Um, and that was about uh 40 years ago. So I've spent 40 years studying therapy, doing therapy on the side at times in various places. Um, you know, I traveled around the U.S. giving talks on this and uh done research on it. So basically I'm just kind of a recovering professor. How's that?

Jesus 2:03

Would you mind me asking you what are some of the top topics that you you had that you've traveled around giving? Just, you know, a couple just for us to.

Dr. Tom Smith 2:11

Well, probably the one that was the uh was on abstinence education. Basically, is how to keep uh kids from having sex.

Jesus 2:23

And so you're gonna be invited back for another sermon. I just want to let you go. Go ahead.

Dr. Tom Smith 2:30

Um, but I can also tell you that uh based upon the research I did over many years, um, there's no way to keep kids from having sex. That's basically was the result of the research. No matter what you try to teach them, no matter what you tell them, kids will do what kids will do. And so they follow their heart.

Dr. Tom Smith 2:52

So that means you have to get to them early and you gotta get them uh so that they believe in it, because by the time they're 12, 13, it's hard to start teaching them. It starts because it goes in and then it goes out.

Nola 3:06

Right. Okay.

Dr. Tom Smith 3:07

So no. So that did a lot of work on that. And but basically, I'm just a professor who did research on therapy, did a little therapy on the side, and um tried to learn over a long period of time.

Jesus 3:24

All right. We look forward to um getting to learn what you learned. So we'll do that.

Nola 3:28

Okay, so now we're gonna get into a definition of trauma. Can you define trauma for us and even different types of trauma if possible?

Dr. Tom Smith 3:41

Um actually uh the term trauma was wasn't really something I became aware of, but then I started teaching this course. It's psychopathology, it's the study of mental illness, but more specifically, it's giving diagnoses. One such diagnosis is trauma.

Dr. Tom Smith 4:00

So then psychiatrists use a number of criteria by which they define trauma. Okay, so that has a very specific meaning. But the problem is that's changed over the decades. So what trauma is, is it's a moving target. It is not any one thing. And so for people to say it's one thing or the other, or sure, but remember it has changed so much over the years, it's hard to know exactly what it is.

Dr. Tom Smith 4:34

I think it's safe to say that it's an individual thing. Each person will say uh what trauma is for themselves. Now, would I think of it as trauma? I mean, they might say they had a bad hair day, and that was traumatizing, you know, and I'd go, a bad hair day is a bad hair day. Not sure how it's trauma, but for that person it was traumatic. So it's really being uh respectful of each person's experience, definition, how they present their trauma. So uh some extent, when people you know say they're traumatized, I'll be quiet and silent and try to listen. But um I won't really know what that means until they give me more context, until they tell me how trauma has affected them personally.

Jesus 5:28

So let me ask, we're obviously um at a church, we've got multi-generational. So if the term and its definition has developed, right, expanded, contracted along the way, you know, um any any any guidance you can possibly give, let's just say a parent having uh a kid and who wants to talk about a traumatic experience where they're just their definitions are just are completely at odds. Right. I didn't know if there's any guidance you can kind of provide.

Dr. Tom Smith 5:56

Well, for uh a kid to say they've been traumatized, that's not kid language. I I'd be I'd be very curious, very worried. How did the how did the kid learn the word trauma? What does that mean to the kid? I mean, so that that would be the first thing that comes to my mind, because that it's something's odd there about that language. Um it might be something that happened to somebody, and they learned somehow, their friend, teacher, that what happened to them was trauma. So that that may be what happened. So it's really listening to um kind of what is kind of a normal way, you know, kids will talk. And then if all of a sudden they say something about trauma, that that should perk up your ears, because that's an unusual thing for any child to say.

Jesus 6:52

That's that's excellent. I mean, it's very easy when you hear a term, you're like the kid doesn't even know what that means, and just brush it off. But from your explanation of it, the fact that a kid brought up the term, that should raise a red flag, raise an eyebrow, perk up your ears.

Dr. Tom Smith 7:07

Very, very much so.

Jesus 7:08

Yeah. Excellent. And so, you know, um, in terms of trauma, after it's been experienced, many manifestations in terms of uh what can be displayed and what can be thought about. But but I want to specifically go into a type of expression or a type of feeling of loneliness and isolation, if you wouldn't mind just just honing in on that, um, and just tell us a little bit about that in terms of your ...

Dr. Tom Smith 7:32

Well, you know, most of the people that I've seen who've been traumatized, they they will feel like um their community has kind of been um come down to one themselves, because they will feel alone at that point. Because I mean, questions like why me will be coming to their mind. And so that that will be just playing through their mind. They may have tried reaching out to others and been told uh basically it's that's not a big deal, don't worry about it. Or um you'll get over it.

Dr. Tom Smith 8:07

Uh so I mean, I I think Dr. Valentine talked about platitudes. Yeah. And so most of the people who've been traumatized have been told platitudes, which has unfortunately re-traumatized the person, because now they've been told you're not important. What you're saying is not real. And so therefore, you're just making it up. That will give a sense of aloneness and loneliness, because then it's with a sense no one understands. So that that that's the reason why platitudes are are so dangerous, because it leads to isolation and loneliness.

Jesus 8:47

And if I could just say this is specific to our audience, uh, Dr. Smith had mentioned the name Dr. Valentine. Our audience won't be introduced to Dr. Valentine until episode four, so hold on to that and continue to listen on. But uh, Dr. Smith and Dr. Valentine are married. We are blessed to get them both here.

Dr. Tom Smith 9:06

But but wait, let me interrupt.

Jesus 9:09

Yes, sir.

Dr. Tom Smith 9:09

She's the A team. I I'm the B team. Okay, so if you can't go with her because B is the A team. A

Jesus 9:18

She's the A Team. You've got to get to episode four to get to the A Team. All right. So just hold on to your horses. We'll get there. We'll get there. All right, so loneliness and isolation and that whole concept of a community of one. That's very interesting how you can think you're a community of one and be surrounded with a church body. Right. Or a family. How does what are all the things that kind of take place for somebody to get themselves in that isolated spot, right?

Dr. Tom Smith 9:42

I I think it's just a sense no one listens. You know, so people can give good advice, they can be absolutely correct in everything they're saying, but they're not hearing a word that the person says. You've created then uh a community of one. Because then no one's listening to them. And that's the probably the one thing I see most often. I mean, they're people are good. They just don't listen to each other because each person thinks they're good.

Jesus 10:18

We're gonna have to pause that and we just have to silently think about that, what we just said. That's that's excellent. So let me ask, um, when addressing loneliness and isolation, what are some healthy and unhealthy ways of uh the person that went through that traumatic experience, how they've dealt with that? Just some examples of healthy and unhealthy, just to so we can keep an eye on stuff like that.

Dr. Tom Smith 10:41

Well, uh, you know, part of um, you know, part of the way I I'm gonna actually skip ahead to some of your other questions. Yeah, great.

Jesus 10:52

Do what you gotta do, Dr. Smith.

Dr. Tom Smith 10:54

Um, when I was 30, um, I, or actually when I was around the mid-50s, uh mid-uh 20, when I was about 25, I had to decide um upon a dissertation topic. And so I there were all sorts. But the one I chose was one where I could get paid $10,000 to do a research study.

Jesus 11:15

Okay.

Dr. Tom Smith 11:16

Because I was poor, I needed to eat, and $10,000 sounded like a lot of money. It was on marijuana abuse, okay. Um, basically addictions. That led me into the area of addictions. And so when I became a professor after I graduated, then um my topic then was addictions, which led me into 12 steps, which led me into the issue of God.

Dr. Tom Smith 11:43

Now, remember, I was a professor, so I looked at things um really through trying to research it, understand it, kind of reading about it, etc. And so one of the things that I learned is um remember, with God you're not alone. But and in the 12 steps, community is built. And so it's in addictions I learned what community meant.

Dr. Tom Smith 12:11

Because um I'm actually not an addict, so I couldn't go to a 12-steps meeting. But I read enough, I talked enough to people who were uh going to 12 steps and again did research on it and by talking to people and began to understand what does aloneness mean for them. Well, the whole thing about 12 steps then was just having people listen to you and understand where you're coming from.

Dr. Tom Smith 12:42

So um that that's probably where um my understanding of the role of God came was from talking to people who were addicts. Now it doesn't mean that they were uh kind of healed overnight or that they became great Christians. I'm a little more realist than that. But it certainly provides uh a pathway.

Jesus 13:11

Okay.

Dr. Tom Smith 13:12

So it's in this unhealthy journey where then arrogance, pride becomes the key issue. And it's their first statement, I can do it myself, I can control my use. That's a statement of pride because by definition, and if you look at all the definitions of uh addiction, it all starts with the idea, I can do it myself, I can control my use, but they fail each time, which means they can't control their use. That means they need help, they need community. So, yeah, the issue of vice uh of um addictions and trauma, frankly, is the same thing. It's the issue of trying to control it yourself, trying to do it yourself, and failing and failing and failing, and having no one uh listen until you get to a community who can listen.

Nola 14:08

So I'm gonna interrupt you for just a second, um, and go back to um kind of getting to know a little bit about who you are. You mentioned in the midst of your uh research of addiction and community and 12-step programs, uh that that led you to, okay, where does God fit in the midst of this? So can you share with us your salvation story, how you came to know the Lord personally?

Dr. Tom Smith 14:35

Probably it it, you know, some people talk about a mountaintop experience and et cetera, et cetera. I'm not sure I believe in a mountaintop experience. I I think it happened over a period of years and knowing something must be happening, because um I've screwed up in so many ways that there is nothing, no reason that I should still be um be able to be successful as much as I am without there being God.

Dr. Tom Smith 15:08

And I think so I had to be convinced like any other good uh skeptic. And it was by just seeing evidence over and over and over again until finally it's like, okay, I'm done. Um I've I've been convinced, you know, Holy Spirit and God did it to me. He did. I didn't have any other choice.

Jesus 15:34

That's excellent. I think uh a lot of people um would share that experience in terms of I can't put my finger on it, but I was definitely walked to that point and like I'm just kind of here. Right? I'm just kind of like saved, I've just kind of been aware that of the Lord's work and so excellent.

Dr. Tom Smith 15:53

It took a long time though. It took a while, yeah, yeah.

Jesus 15:56

A couple years, you're like you're in 30s now.

Dr. Tom Smith 15:58

Yeah, yeah, well, it took a long, long time. Um professors by definition are arrogant, and their arrogance uh means that universities are by and large secular, which leads um the whole business of being arrogant and prideful. Universities means that they um it's hard for them to be anything but um either agnostic or atheists. It's just it's the nature of being in a university, it's uh it's the self-sufficiency. That is the danger of being a professor.

Nola 16:41

So, do you have thoughts or suggested criteria for those seeking um professional counseling as they seek to deal with their trauma? How can how would you advise uh the person that knows that they need counseling to make sure that they see somebody who is trustworthy and going to point them towards truth?

Dr. Tom Smith 17:04

Okay. Well, you know, it's always important to realize that there's uh a readiness for change that could occur. But it may take a while because they may be ready one day and something happens and then all of a sudden they're not ready anymore. And so that's why this business of engaging a person into therapy, it really is engaging them, because just because they're ready one day doesn't mean they'll be ready the next day.

Dr. Tom Smith 17:36

So I think that that's why the church is a great place for that because it's a matter of patience and matter of um having patience with people who just don't get it, that they're in a world of hurt, even if they're not willing to share that with other people. So um maybe the best thing that can happen is just patience with people who have problems but aren't willing to acknowledge it, aren't willing to almost become that vulnerable because it is scary for people.

Jesus 18:14

So question. So Nola and I both um both being um leaders within our specific church, right? We have kids and students kind of come to us to receive care. Any guidance in terms of at what particular point in our conversations, and you know, Nola and I are both trained. Uh, I'm a school psychologist by training, you know, just doing assessments, and Nola has her degree in uh biblical counseling. Um, any guidance on our end where this needs to now shift over into professional mental health care? Biblical, but but still professional. Any any thoughts on that?

Dr. Tom Smith 18:49

Well, I mean, there's all sorts of answers to that. Um I I think when it's important for everyone, including, you know, including people, everyone to know, okay, it's time for me to punt. Because the problem may be that you know, whatever group decides that they have answers. And I'm always, I'm always very cautious of that. And so it's when they feel frustrated, when a person feels like they've done everything they can, then it's time it's time to punt. Yeah.

Jesus 19:31

Now I asked that question in terms of okay, church care for someone, but I mean it could very easily just apply to family, right? The kids' network, uh the adults' networks, all of a sudden that support network, there is a time to punt. That is correct. That is correct.

Dr. Tom Smith 19:48

But other therapists as well, because not all therapists are are equally competent. I mean, part of what I taught at universities over 40 years, I taught therapists how to be therapists. And so I have this, I don't know how many hundreds and hundreds of people I've taught to be um therapists. And so I have a very jaundiced opinion of the training people get to be therapists.

Dr. Tom Smith 20:20

And in the end, what the research always tends to show, it's the person, not the therapy. So you could know everything about how to do therapy and be a lousy therapist. But in the end, so it's really the training each person has, the understanding, the wisdom, um, which is why it's really hard for a you know, uh someone in their mid-twenties to be a good therapist. They don't have the experience, they they may not have the wisdom. Because in the end, therapy is not about technique, it's about the person and the person's ability to connect with other people.

Jesus 21:00

So that's excellent. And if I can if I can add to that, you know, I mean, um Nola and I both working in the student ministry world, you know, if we have volunteers, one of the things that we recommend is step into student ministry. Don't wait for your child to be student ministry aged to get ready. Come in, get some experience, work on some other people's kids, show them some love, uh, occasionally practice the punt, right? We do all that, and so you have that little bit of a, you know, um, and you'll hear more about it in episode four, that whole development of the frontal cortex. Get that experience as well, you know.

Dr. Tom Smith 21:36

Yeah, practicing other people's kids.

Jesus 21:38

There you go. Student ministry, come get them.

Nola 21:42

Okay. What are some practical ways people can remember the hope of the gospel as they walk through a season of suffering?

Dr. Tom Smith 21:52

The hope of the gospel. Well, probably it's a hard, it's a hard thing for a person to hear. You are not alone. And that's probably the most important thing a person can hear and believe. You are not alone. You're not only with God, but with a community. And it's hard for a person who's been alone to accept community. Because in the past, community has failed them over and over again, especially with trauma. And so for anyone, especially kids, to hear you are not alone is a really a big thing for a person to accept.

Nola 22:43

In the same vein, what are some practical ways the church body can help those facing crisis, pain, or trauma?

Dr. Tom Smith 22:57

To know when they're not being helpful. One of the things, everyone thinks they're helpful is the problem. Research shows that's not true. And so I think it's really to know, to be able to listen to whoever's sitting in front of you and know, okay, I'm listening carefully, nothing's happening. And that, yeah, almost here from within is nothing happening. And usually for me, it means there's no juice, not not, there's no interaction. Um, the other person seems very too quiet or too unfocused or too kind of out of it. And that will make me begin to worry, okay, what's happening here? Because usually in in therapy, there's always a sense of um that something is happening. They're having to uh reconcile ideas with themselves, which means they're elevated in their uh anxiety, if you will. That that's therapy. So when a person is being too quiet or too um just into themselves, then I'm worrying, okay, what's happening in that person to have it be that quiet or that unfocused, because that that's worrisome.

Nola 24:22

So it's it's almost like the person who has the opportunity to minister to the person in the midst of trauma has to keep their thoughts captive just as much as the person that needs counseling and and needs to want to have care and needs to put in the work to start healing um just as much as the counselee, like the person that has the opportunity to speak into somebody who is hurting needs to know, okay, I need to make sure that I'm not um being unhelpful. I'm not uh saying things that are unhelpful and making sure that I'm paying attention to, okay, this this person's behavior has changed. What's going on here? How do I ask questions that are um a ministry to this person and not hurting that person?

Dr. Tom Smith 25:16

So that's cool. Well, look at it this way: if you're talking, the client's not. And therefore, I'm worried then what what are you saying that's going to be useful to the client? So if you're silent, it allows the client to talk. Just from a pragmatic perspective, who has airtime?

Jesus 25:34

Yeah. For those interested in learning more about um trauma-informed counseling or care for students, I will highlight an upcoming event, right? Uh the 2024 Hope Conference. It's going to be at uh Piedmont Park Alliance Church January 27th. Um, it's called Trauma Informed Counseling, a Biblical Perspective. And so by this particular point, you've heard two interviews. Um, we did mention last time this particular conference coming in place, but if you want, www.tallycounseling.com. It's a conference put together by the Tallahassee Bapt uh Biblical Counseling Ministries. If you are interested in continuing this learning process uh that Professor Um Dr. Smith has introduced to us, I just encourage you to go into that and seek some additional assistance. So on that note, we love you. We thank you for your time. God bless.

Nola 26:33

Celebration family, thanks for listening. Be sure to listen to each and every sermon and podcast tied to the Scar series. God bless you.