Tea Time with Persephone: Colonization

Join me for mini episodes discussing important topics that may or may not lead to a larger episode. Today’s topic is how colonization hurts everyone and how it contributes to cultural appropriation in pagan and witchcraft spaces. Also, why Hadestown and The Odyssey being popular this summer is a sign of desiring a reconnection to the past.

Host: Persephone

Original Music by Persephone

Original Art by Kalena Dobbs

https://linktr.ee/KatabasisPodcast?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=f3406b1c-ba0d-40fc-b22e-197663b05724

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 1:48

Hey everybody, welcome to Tea Time with Persephone. These are going to be small episodes in between the larger interview episodes about random topics, things that come up as questions I've been asked, or maybe thoughts that I've had as we're recording episodes that may not necessitate a larger episode or even talking to a guest necessarily. It you know could be turned into something bigger. It could also open up discussions and maybe a guest will come forward. It's kind of open. This is going to be a little bit more casual. Obviously, I'm not interviewing anyone in these. And again, these will be a little bit shorter. So expect these every now and again. I'll probably fit them in between the larger episodes just for the simple fact. And it takes a while to edit and things, and I'm still kind of getting used to that. But I appreciate everyone who's here and who wants to chit-chat about things. You're more than welcome to submit questions or thoughts or ideas that you would like to hear in this discussion. And again, if a guest comes forward who wants to talk about it in more depth, I am over the moon for that. I think that would be wonderful. So grab your little cup of tea. I've got my mug of tea here, and let's just talk a little bit. So a couple weeks ago, I posted on the Instagram about my thoughts regarding when the Odyssey came out as well as the Pro Shot of Hades Town. I had some thoughts then about why those dominated the box office the way they did. Now, of course, we can argue some mundane things like Christopher Nolan is a huge director, and people tend to be very excited about his movies, myself included. So, yes, that is a part of it, but I thought it was interesting that it was two stories from Greek mythology that dominated the box office when there was actually quite a bit out, especially Hades Town being in there, because not a lot of people go to the Broadway pro shots. And it was just interesting that it and the Odyssey were the top two that, you know, especially that first weekend. So, you know, if you're unfamiliar with Hades Town, it is the story of Orpheus and Eurydice. And it was rewritten by Anais Mitchell in a sort of jazzy 1930s sort of depression era format. Um, Hades and Persephone are obviously characters, as well as Hermes and the Fates and everything, you know, some beautiful music. It is one of my personal favorites. Um, I have seen it live. The Odyssey, obviously, I think most people know who that is. Now, I'm not gonna get into the critiques of those things in terms of what they are as retellings. That is gonna actually be an episode that I'm recording soon with Irisanya as we kind of follow up from our previous episode. What I'm talking about is why were those so popular? And I have some thoughts. And this is something that I've discussed with other practitioners and other pagans that people are really wanting their roots. And I think it boils down to colonization hurts everybody. It's very easy to point out how colonization has hurt black and brown in Indigenous communities because they were hurt the most and severely and in very overt, disturbing ways. 100%. What a lot of people don't discuss is the way it pushes those with European white backgrounds into positions where they don't know their ancestry and they grasp onto the colonization, which continues things like racism, because it's all they know. They don't know how to connect to their ancestors, they don't know about some of the pagan practices. Now you do see certain people, especially if you have Norse background or Celtic background, it's a little bit easier because those communities have really fought to keep their traditions and their stories alive, similar to the Greeks as well. But there are so many areas that they really don't know a lot about their community because they've been so pushed out of it. You know, their ancestors converted to Christianity or Islam or other religions, and they lost their stories, they lost the knowledge, and some communities don't have a lot of books or things to go to. So what happens is people get into the new age stuff, which unfortunately does have a basis in cultural appropriation and racism, unfortunately, a lot of it. And because it's more known, those communities had to fought to keep it and keep it safe and protected. Those communities had to hide what they were doing in order to continue to use it, and yet it's still being stolen by people who move into new age or pagan practices today because they don't know how to do their own research, they don't know how to connect. It's easier to do this, and they have not deconstructed from colonialism, from being a majority, from being in power, from centering whiteness and things like that. They have not moved from that, and so they go in and appropriate. And I think in some cases leads to things like religious psychosis or the people who decide, you know, I'm gonna go back to Jesus because this just doesn't feel right, because they're doing a practice that actually does not belong to their ancestor, to their DNA, to their soul. They have found what was easy and what was readily available instead of doing the hard work. What does that have to do with the Odyssey in Hades Town? They're craving their ancestors, they're craving the old stories. They want to connect. I can't tell you how many times I go online and see, for example, something like the Haka performed. If you're unfamiliar with it, it is a Maori tradition that the warriors use. You can see like their rugby teams and their their football teams doing it before games and things like that. You see it a lot with um welcoming soldiers home. I've seen some beautiful videos for that. It's a wonderful ancestral practice. Does not belong to me, does not belong to anyone but the Maori people. And I see so many comments from people of European ancestries who are like, man, I cry every time I see this. And I really started to think about that. And I've talked about it again with other practitioners. And it was a friend of mine who said, it's because they don't know their own ancestors. They don't have the same ancestor traditions, they don't carry the same things, they don't look at what they are. And I think that's a big piece. It's not the only piece. We're not gonna minimize the other pieces by any means. But I think it is a contributing factor because I know for me, I never felt right in the Christian faith. It never sat with me. It did not feel right ever. You know, I was raised Catholic. I do have Jewish ancestry on the other side of my family. I was raised with my mother, so I went with what she had and it never felt right, but she did do witchy things. And when I finally embraced the witchy things and looked at my ancestry on like my father's side and things, and realized why I felt so called to the Greek, the Hellenic traditions, because that's who I am, and I feel at home and comfortable there. I have been able to move away from these other expectations. I've been able to say, we're not gonna culturally appropriate. I'm not gonna use things like white sage or Palo Santo because they don't belong to me. I'm not gonna do practices that are specifically done by Hoodoo and Voudan protect practitioners or as people who practice Santeria. They don't belong to me. I'm not an initiate. Now, do I learn about them so I can respect and understand it as a fellow practitioner? Also, because I love to learn and I just I'm curious. Sure, but I'm not gonna use them. I'm definitely not gonna use them for clients or teach it because it's not mine. So there's this element of I think people are desperately seeking. And when you're coming from a place of being the majority in a situation like a colonization, white supremacy, things like that, it is so easy to go into those spaces and try to dominate. And that's when you have these like weird retreats and things that I'm like, you do know that is not a practice that you should be teaching, certain, you know, using certain plant medicines and things that you are not trained in that do not belong to you. And if you're getting offended by this, you may want to ask yourself why. There's nothing wrong with doing the practice that belongs to your ancestry. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm Irish slash Celtic, Scottish on my mom's side, and I'm a Mediterranean swan kind of mix on my dad's, and you know, adding the Judaism in there, because that is a whole other thing. I honor my Irish roots and I honor my Mediterranean roots, obviously. And these are the things that make me feel whole because they do belong to me. That's why one of my witchy pet peeves isn't people like, well, I was this in a past life, so I can do this now. No, past life stuff is not an excuse to culturally appropriate, steal, whatever, basically be a colonizer. Don't do that. Again, learning about stuff is beautiful. If you are welcomed by that group to be an initiate and you go through the proper process by actual practitioners in that, I can't speak to that because that's not my thing and that they are allowed to make their own choices. Absolutely. 100%. We can't, as practitioners, as if you do identify as pagan, you cannot take from other people. And I think that's why those stories, those mythology stories resonate with so many. They're classics, we know them, but there's an element of connection there that so many people just don't feel. They've lost it. And that's how colonization hurts everybody. It steals the identity of your blood. It steals the identity of what your ancestors did that worked for them. You had to hide it. You had to hide it as a secret, secret thing and use codes and all this stuff. And it was the marginalized people that kept it alive. You can bring back your ancestral practices. I know of some amazing people in various Eastern European countries who are really trying to bring back their practices, and they have some really cool ones. Like, I love learning their stuff. Um, and I'm not just talking about Baba Yaga, but like all sorts of things, all of the different like Slavic gods and goddesses, things like that, traditions and stories. They're so cool. But not a lot of people know about them because they're not popular. They were sort of kept alive, but it's kind of like languages, you know, like you have certain dialects, like the Irish um language was kept alive because it was made a national language, and and children have to learn it in school, it's on signs and things. But the Scottish version of the Gaelic has largely died out in many areas, and certain versions of it, certain little like local dialects have died out because it was not made a national language, and only a few people know it. And if only a few people know it, nobody's writing it down, what happens? You lose it. That's happened to a lot of indigenous practices and languages, because you know a lot of those things weren't written down, you know. And if the native speakers die, what happens? So a lot of these pagan practices were really wiped out through the advent of colonization, of missionaries, all that that goes with it. And where do you go? And I think that's why we also see so many Norse and Hellenic practitioners because they don't know where else to go and they feel stuck and it's easily accessible, they're not technically closed practices, so it's just there. But then I also see a lot of people go back and leave because it wasn't really theirs. They go with what they know, and I think that's why it dominated. I think people are craving their ancestry, they're craving what their ancestors did, they're craving the stories that resonate to our heart, they're craving realness instead of all the consumerism and these shiny things that just feed into egos, but they don't know what to do with it. So they go see a movie and then they criticize it for stupid reasons, racist reasons, let's be for real, and misogynistic reasons, also, let's be for real. They criticize because they can't connect. They've become so numb, and it breaks my heart for them a little bit. The world is really hard, and it's hard to find where you belong. Not everybody's gonna be pagan or like it. Not everybody's gonna be Christian or like it. You can say that about many things. That's why I love diversity. This is a DEI podcast, just everybody knows. I love diversity, and I think it's how we learn from each other, it's how we connect, and it's how this world moves and grows and things like that. The issue is people are not analyzing the internal. They're staying so stuck, and they stay with the devil they know. Whether that's being in the majority of a colonization situation, whether that's being a Christian, because they were just raised that way and it's what they know. And that's not saying you can't be Christian. I know some Christians that are amazing people. I know some that aren't amazing people, just like anything. But I think the issue comes from the disconnection. And I think you see that a lot in the United States because so many of us came over from other countries, and you know, like other countries kind of mock us a little bit when I say, Oh, I'm an I'm an Irish American, and they'll mock us and go, You're not really Irish, you're American. You have Irish ancestry, but they consider that different, and it is an important distinction. I do agree. I do think identifying ancestry versus actual nationality and culture, it is it is different, but it's that still deep desire to connect and feel something deeper than ourselves. You know, if you've seen the movie Sinners, I think that's a perfect illustration, especially with our lovely Ramek Vire. I'm a big Jack O'Connell fan. He's delightful. Adore that man. And there is the conversations he has about how colonization hurt him, and then he participates and continues it in a different way, is exactly kind of what I'm speaking to here. One of the best movies I've ever seen with regards to having these discussions and like how we welcome people into our lives and and how these things hurt us. I'm also gonna be a huge fan of anyone who's going to unalive some racist assholes in a movie. So I'm also gonna be a big fan of that. But it opens up the discussion of how do we truly connect. And, you know, he connects with his ancestors through the music and the dancing, but he's still trying to control. And that's the path that I see a lot of people tend to go down, and that's when they backtrack and go back to what they know and they leave, you know, being maybe in the new age or pagan communities, witchcraft communities, because they just don't know how to connect anymore. They're not getting deeper. And I know I've mentioned uh previously that I am working on a book on deconstruction, and I think it's important to talk about that because deconstructing from colonization, from Christianity, as you move into practices that are more traditional, like the old gods, you know, as you're moving into that is important not only just to be in that older tradition, but to be a better participant in your community, to be a more whole participant, to be open and empathetic and understand any privilege that you have, whether it's based on skin color, your sex, your gender, socioeconomic status, any number of things. You have to understand the privilege you have to help your community do better, as well as to heal yourself. It is a little bit of part of your shadow work. And I think people get stuck, and I think the element of guilt comes in, which is very normal, but people don't know how to deal with that emotion when it comes on. They don't want to feel like a bad person. Nobody wants to feel like a bad person. Nobody does. But they do when they realize they might have hurt somebody, or they probably hurt somebody through just having privilege or through microaggressions or any number of things. And you have to move through that. So this is a very convoluted answer to why I think 80s town and the Odyssey dominated the box office. It's simply because people crave their ancestors, they crave their DNA, they crave the deeper connection to the earth and the systems of the earth because we're so bombarded with social media and the internet and consumerism and stimulation, stimulation, stimulation, stimulation. And for a few hours, they can go listen to a beautiful musical about lovers and how that story ends, or they can go watch an epic of a man trying to get home and feel connection for just a moment. And there is something to be said about things that connect us as a current community. You know, a lot of people went and saw the Odyssey, obviously. A lot of people love the Broadway musical Hades Town, and it's a way to connect to your community because you go see it and you can talk and have these conversations and write reviews and all these beautiful things. These are historical moments, just like last a couple years ago with uh Barbie and Oppenheimer. You know, how many people did like the double feature and talk about it and have these discussions? These are the moments that we have now to connect, but they're very fleeting. You know, a lot of these things aren't in the theater anymore. We're still having discussions, but it's not as much, you know, things move very quickly in social media and in in the regular news as well. So that connection dissipates and we have to find the next one and the next one and the next one. And it gets harder. It gets much harder. And I think that's one of the reasons why paganism on the rise, or at the very least, people leaving organized religion. I think there's also a lot of other factors for that. That's a whole other conversation for another day. But I think some of it is the lack of feeling connected to it anymore. And we want something different, and we want something deeper and real and natural and calm. We want to be away from the stimulation, from the overwhelm. And I will say that about the Odyssey. I I weirdly found that movie very calming, even though it shouldn't be. And of course, there's several scenes that are quite harsh, but there were so many moments of just calm. And I think that's some of what the classics give us is a sense of calm because we know the story for the most part. We know the outcome, we know the messages and the themes, you know, for those of us who've studied it in school or outside of school, we have a basic knowledge, and it's comforting, even though it's been told in a new way. And again, Irisania and I are gonna go into the importance of retellings and things like that. But I think that's one of the reasons why people needed those. They wanted those. Not just because of the dragon, but we love retellings, we love translations, we love the old ways because it's in our blood. That's what our ancestors did. If you believe in past lives, you probably did it in some past lives too. So it feels at home, it's natural, it's it makes sense. And there's less expectations and and fear in a lot of these things too. Not always, but in a lot of them. So there's gonna be plenty of you all who disagree with me, and I'm fully prepared for that. These are my own musings, my own thoughts, even though I have discussed them with other people. But I think it's an important thing to have because I do feel there is a huge shift away from the over-stimulation, the over-consumerism, this late stage capitalism crap. And people want simplicity, they want to connect, they want a simple life where they can feel safe and at ease with their families, with themselves, and not feel so overwhelmed all the time. And I think in some ways the old stories give us that, the old ways give us that because that's when they were mostly used, that's when it was popular, when things were simpler. Now is life a hundred percent easier. And there's lots of things we can discuss with that. But it's a nostalgia that goes much deeper than just loving something from when you were ahead. You know? So this was the first tea time with Persephone. Again, there's gonna be plenty of you all disagree, and I kinda love that. Remember, I love good discourse and debate, but the moment we get offensive, name call, say rude things, gross things, start being inappropriate. Fortunately, I'm gonna block you. I don't even engage in it. We're just not gonna do that. So maybe take a think before you do it, because we're just gonna delete it anyway. So go bother someone else. But if you want to have honest, open discourse, grab your mug of tea, send me a message, and let's talk.