Kicking Consumerism with Jordan White

Claudia and Jordan discuss how modern shopping culture is designed to keep us buying, why our homes and closets can become overwhelming, and how individual choices still matter in the fight to protect life on earth.

They also explore hopeful solutions like thrifting, outfit repeating, repairing clothes, sharing within community, choosing better materials, and aligning purchases with personal values.

Follow Jordan: https://www.instagram.com/jordanrosenewhite/

Shop Jordan's closet: https://poshmark.com/closet/thetshirtalbum

Thrift on ThredUp: https://www.thredup.com/

Watch 'The True Cost': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwp0Bx0awoE

Catch up on environmental news: https://earth.org/

Watch Jordan's favorite anti-consumerism channel: https://www.youtube.com/ ⁨@dbalemon⁩  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome back to the Protect All Life podcast. I'm Claudia Green, and today I am joined by my friend Jordan White to talk about consumerism. Jordan is helping protect life on Earth by being very mindful about what she purchases and brings into her home. More so than any other person I know. And Jordan, thank you for being here today. Tell me about the recent no-buy challenge that you've been on. Oh my gosh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

That was really lovely to hear your intro, first off. I just have to say I love that. But for the no buy challenge, I um a little bit of context for that of what I was going through at the time. And then I decided to initiate this challenge, spun out of that, was I had um some physical health challenges. So I had two back surgeries, back to back, pun intended, and I noticed that my consumption, my shopping habits were getting a bit out of control. And I can look back and see why, because in that time I was physically restricted and definitely felt a lack of power. But one thing that I did have control and power over was add to cart. Like that is the easiest, lowest friction activity that you could partake in, right? And so yeah, I think out of that, I was consuming content that was in the vein of anti-haul and no-buy challenges and minimalist low budget lifestyles. And I had to reflect on my own shopping habits. And I thought this was the perfect challenge for me that I wanted to start. And that's kind of what kicked off the challenge initially.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

I love that. Um, your what you said about physically restricted and lack of power reminds me of um my bank sent me a report that was like, you do the most online shopping on Mondays. And I was like, oh, that's because I'm really sad to be going back to work. And I'm like, you know what I mean? I feel physically restricted and I feel a lack of power over my time and my agency. And then I'm like using shopping as an outlet for that. It's so true. And I think that I also think that's by design. Like I think, you know what I mean, the powers that be know that we feel that way and intentionally try to funnel us into buying things to um yeah, to to make us feel better, to make them feel better, right? Like they're lining their pockets with it, so they're super happy. But yeah, so true. It's like um, it's like a drug. It's like it's addicting. And then also with um online shopping, like I was thinking back, I can't remember my parents having a single package delivered to my house growing up. Do you like I don't know, like I don't remember a single delivery.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

That's such a good point. Honestly, the only thing that can come to mind is like around the holidays. Do you remember those Harry and David's the fruit? No, but I love it. This is such a throwback, but other than that, no, that's yeah, if unless it was from like friends or family. Uh but it was it was very that was definitely a rare occasion. You're so right.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, and like if now it's like if my mom was shopping, like I did, I wasn't aware of it, right? And now it's like my stepson knows every single thing that comes to the house because like it's on the doorstep when he gets home from school and he's like, What'd you buy? Like, what are you doing? And I made the point, I think maybe it was to my mom or my husband, I can't remember, but I was like, it's just so convenient, I'd have to go with all these different stores. Like if Amazon didn't have everything, and they were like, No, you just wouldn't need those things, you just wouldn't buy them. Yeah, like you wouldn't be out looking for them.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, they're like new necessities, right? Or at least that's how they've um, I don't know, like projected them to us in today's day and age that we do need them. And yeah, it's it's it's incredible. I feel like um what you were saying about how they they gave you that that feedback or that data point that it was on Mondays, right, that you shopped the most. It's it's amazing how well like our devices get to know us. And sometimes it's hyper convenient, and other times, well, all of the time it is aimed at selling us something. So the odds are definitely stacked against us. I don't think that we have zero agency, but it's um you're definitely butting up against something 24-7 that we are opting into. Like we're we're opting in to use these, right? No forcing us to. Um, and and there's just a lot that comes with it, both good and bad.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, they're just like little selling machines. Yep. Um, what is your social media like with all of the like minimalist and like no-buy content that you follow? Like, do you when you're on there, is it is it like a safe haven of that stuff, or is is the the buy-bye-bye message like trickling in?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah, I feel like I'm not immune to the algorithm, right? Like I'm I'm a person that has proclivities and habits that are being tracked every second of the day. And so while I can be in my zone of no buy and minimalism, there are still these incredibly well-targeted ads that will pop up. And it's almost they've hacked knowing me to the point of she doesn't want to buy anything. So it's almost presented in a way of this is an anti-consumerism product, if anything could exist. Um I feel like my explore page is just confused because I'm really into personal style and fashion. So it's like, okay, she wants to see halls, but no, wait, it's not the hall part. She only wants to see the style. So it's an eclectic mix for sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah. And it I feel like it changes so so much too. Yeah. Um, so what I mean, what tell me walk me through the journey. Like you adopted the no buy. Was that so scary? Because when you told me you were doing that, I was like, that's so scary. Like what how did that feel? Like what I guess I want to know how hard it was for you, and then how you overcame maybe those challenges and like what you've learned and how you think you'll go forward with it.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Yeah, I think it was it it's definitely scary, but I feel like I significantly decreased the fear by giving myself permission to fail. Like up front, it was look, you're buying this insane amount of stuff. And so let's aim, let's call it a no-buy. But if you end up buying less than 10 items in an entire year, we're gonna consider that a win. And then we're just gonna track when you did buy an item, what was propelling you towards that purchase. And I really paid attention to the emotions that were driving the behaviors. And spoiler alert, I quote unquote failed the challenge. I ended up buying, I think it was six or seven items that entire year. But again, I gave myself that permission, that grace, kind of a buffer because I was like, you're someone who is just buying, buying, buying, and then this crazy large amount, the sum of the quantity would show up, and it was probably more than seven a month. So that's still a huge improvement, right? Um, so I definitely I would say one of the key things that I learned was that a lot of the things that I thought I needed or I desired so badly, if I would just leave some time, like leave some distance as to when I got that idea that like I need this right now, that feeling would fade. Um and you reminded me earlier, you were saying something about I think it was it was being a drug. I don't know if it was like shopping or our phones or exactly what it was, but we actually received the highest the peak dopamine hit that we received throughout the shopping process when we're anticipating the purchase. It's not actually having it, it's not when you receive the package when you open it, when you wear it, it's the hunt. Right? It almost feels like we're these primal creatures that are like wanting to collect things and have all these shiny objects and trinkets. Um it was it was a very, very insightful process for sure, doing a no-buy challenge.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

What you're saying about the hunt is so funny because I feel like when I buy something online, then I'm like, where is it? And it's not there. So then I go buy something else. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Oh, the good old ye old double buy, ye old triple buy, triple play.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

At my worst, I'm like buying six things at home. Do you know? Like, and I I don't know. I also feel like it's such a it is so emotional. So like I love hearing that you you tracked everything. Like, did you actually write that down in a spreadsheet? Because I know you love a spreadsheet. You do.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

I love I love a doc. I love a note. I'm like a fellow type B, Claudia. I feel like I I have this in me too. I want to achieve so much, but I'm quite chaotic about the route that I take to get there. So I'll have a plethora of unfinished notebooks and it's it's a little bit beautiful mind. I'm not gonna lie, just scrolling everywhere. Um, but I I I tried to pay attention to and track and write down um when I wanted something, like what was driving that, right? And on the surface level, you could say you had an event coming up, but why couldn't I wear a dress that I already had? Why did I have to buy this new dress? What was the underlying emotion of I don't want to feel insecure? Okay, what's driving that? And there were all these layers that we all have all the time.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah. And they just are like layered on top of each other and they're operating so quickly, like in the background that you don't even know they're there. 100% emotional, emotional thing. And I'm I'm so guilty of like it's a new event. Like every work thing I go to, I'm like, I'm no one can see me in what I have previously worn. And I've like made myself feel better about it by um thrifting things. Like I've stopped almost exclusively on like thread up for the last couple of years, but it's still just like enough is enough, right? Yeah. Because then also we're we are like collapsing under the weight of the amount of stuff that you own, like with our house. Um, right now, like we're because we were building and moving around, and you're managing and having to store so many things, and you're like, how do we own this much stuff? And we were living in an RV like six years ago, like a 22-foot RV. So I'm like, all of this has been acquired in like six years, and it all represents time and money that has been spent. Um, so it's it's that's like that's an unspoken thing about it, is the consumerism is like so bad for the world, but then it's so bad for like your world too. Like you become so trapped by your things. So have you have you gotten rid of a lot of stuff? I see you selling stuff online. So I'm like, where is she getting it? Where is it coming from? Is this like a huge closet purge? Um, like what's happening there?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah, you you said so much that I want to sorry on. No, no, it's amazing. And I was like, because I was looking at my notes, right? Because we had like anyway, I had some things I have written down in terms of quantities. I'm not a numbers girl. I'm gonna let you know that. Like, my husband is constantly checking my math. So I had written down because when you said the weight of stuff, you know, of that it's kind of consuming us and and literally weighing on us. I was thinking, no, literally, and I had, oh, actually, this is kismet. It just popped up in my document at the exact spot that I was looking for. Is that we literal weight, Claudia, is over 10 million tons per year of our clothing consumption sits in landfills. So, and but then again, I wanted to comment on so many things that you said because it's the literal weight of our of our items, is is a bit staggering to read that number. Um and then it's the the weight of your energy, your time, your effort that you spend not even taking care of your things, but when you're just walking throughout your home, it's this mental processing power of I'm holding on to this item that my great aunt gave me five years ago that I never use and I don't like, but she's not with me anymore, so I feel like I need to keep it. But there's that times a hundred probably in the average person's home, right? And so it's it's taking so much mental energy that's just running in the background. Um and yes, to get to to to your ending question about reselling my things online. I think that that oftentimes even my very close friends and family, they're surprised by how small my closet is and how little I have. Like what a lean operation I've run in terms of my my outfits that I put together every day. What for example, for what I'm wearing today is probably not a surprise to you. This is my most worn accessory, my most worn t-shirt. I'm a huge outfit repeater. Um and I I just feel like having so many things just really affects our mental state. And so I try, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

It does, no, it does. Um what what you when you're saying that, I'm thinking about like not only does a purchase take from you in the moment your time, your energy, your money, but it never stops taking from you. Because then it's taking up space in your house, and then you have to like walk it around and restore it in different places, and then you have to weigh, do I keep this, do I not? And then you have to drive it to the donation, or you throw it in the garbage and you landfill it. And it's all just so bad. And I I feel like a good solution is for companies to be responsible for disposing what they make. I don't know if that shifts the like the blame from the consumer, like in a way that like shouldn't be shifted. Like if it's like we need to be like more individually responsible. But I feel like everything should be able to be returned to the company and they should be able to like recycle these things on a mass scale. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 16:25

I love that idea. I've never, I think that's yeah. And when you were just sharing that idea, the word that came to mind was partnership. Like I feel like there needs to be a a bigger partnership between us as the consumer with the companies that we choose to purchase from. Um, because it's basically it's just a transaction, and then you're kind of on your own, and then you do with it what you will, which we know what we will by vast majority is it will end up in landfill or burnt or shipped to other countries, um, developing countries, which is a whole other thing that we can talk about. But yeah um I I love, love, love, love that idea. And the company could also propose different options, right? Like just like they do for a return or exchange. They could have some quick formatted questions where it's is this, you know, is this item damaged? What why are you sending it back? And and have some type of process to recycle the materials or use it to produce new products. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Yeah, and I mean, there's a lot of companies that will take old stuff back and resell it. Like it's a great opportunity for them if they can sell it twice. Um, but I also think that it would make companies like take pause over what they're creating because there's also just a lot of stuff that's created. We're like, this is just really cheap plastic that like doesn't need to exist. I feel like I I see that especially in kids' toys. Like you might see with your nieces and nephews, or it's just like just this like a haul of stuff gets torn on you every Christmas, every birthday. And it's I mean, don't even get me sorry about how like plastic, rightly colored kids' toys like aren't even like what kids' brains need, but like it's just I'm just like it's useless, you know, and then I feel awful and I'm like responsible for it. Like it's a burden.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Um but yeah, it's yeah, and we're gorgeous passing the buck. Like each party that is involved in this cycle is literally shipping off their problem to someone else. So the company ships to ships to us once we buy it's your problem. Then we ship it into the trash, then it's the landfill's problem or a developing country's problem, right? It's just out of sight, out of mind. So again, with what you were saying and your your idea, I love I because I feel like there's partnership and collaboration in that. Um just connecting us more as fellow humans in this worldwide community that we really are, because everything we do affects each other, whether or not we choose to like um consciously view it, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah, I know when you say partnership, it makes me think like community, which I think we all know is like the solution to a lot of things we're facing right now, is like we need to be more in community um with each other. And yeah, I think it just introduces like a level of responsibility for companies of do you really want to make that? Do you need to make that so bad that you need to be responsible for like disposing of it too for the rest of your life? Um but what do you tell me what you know about the process of like chipping things off to other countries for waste? Because I know like we've talked about it a little bit. Obviously, I think a lot of us have seen like the horrible pictures. I think I've heard a statistic that the average pair of like fast fashion jeans is worn five times before it's thrown away. And that just makes me so sad. It's just so short-sighted. But yeah, tell me what you know about that.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

It is, yeah. I've learned, I recently learned this term called waste colonialism. And I feel like that perfectly captures it. That so for for in the US, right? You're right on the money too. I think it's like around seven to ten times an average American will wear a garment before they discard it, which is insane, uh incredibly short-sighted. And then a lot of that ends up in landfill or we burn it, and then a tertiary option is that we ship out these massive bales to developing countries, namely in Africa. And let me just play devil's advocate to myself. Well, developing countries, they could utilize resources or clothing from America. Well, unfortunately, it's a large percentage of the clothing that is is surely unusable. So waste colonialism, again, I feel like is the perfect way to describe it. That term when I learned of it really resonated with me. I'm like, that's exactly what it is. We are shipping a problem to someone else, our literal trash.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Yeah, and I mean it makes sense that they wouldn't even be usable because a lot of this stuff, like I remember having like Forever 21 things back in the day that you watch and it's like falling apart. Like that is so criminal to me that you can even put something out that can't perform its function, which honestly gets me into like time out such a rabbit hole. Because um, what is it? What is the term called planned obsolescence? Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, with like appliances and stuff. Like we just we have all new appliances in the house, and I'm seeing people being like, I'm replacing everything five years later. And I'm like, oh my God, like that's so evil. That is so evil. Because then, like, a whole fridge isn't the only infill, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah. Yeah. Planned obsolete. It's I learned about that term. Like, so I've been, my husband and I have been together for 15 years, and I learned about it. I don't know, maybe in like the first or second year that we were together and we had moved in together. And he was super into recycling. I actually credit him a lot with early days of me becoming more thoughtful and mindful about what I was consuming because I just wasn't, you know, and I can blame that on being young and naive, but I was like, okay, he's he's very diligent about what he's putting, where, and then where it ends up. Um, but he's an industrial designer by trade. And so he was well acquainted with planned obsolescence. And I think that was a term that was coined like quite a few decades ago, but now more than ever, it's a thing. And I feel like the turnaround is even shorter, right? For how long your product growth or appliance can last you. Or, and or we decide that let's say, for example, we have a cutting board and there's a scuff on it and we need to replace it. Yeah. You know, like an aesthetic mark versus this is still usable, this is still good. Um and just being really detached from that discard portion of the process.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Yeah. Um what pla one thing that comes to mind with planned obsolescence is like the iPhone. Remember how the Apple was sued because they're pushing all those updates that made you have to buy a new phone? Like this is this is such a like old trick. And I do think that a lot of companies are very well versed in like psychology that they use in their marketing. I've heard um that I think it would think it was Freud, like worked really closely with governments and marketing agencies, like back in the day when he was first, you know, putting his work out, um, just to help manipulate people, basically, right? Like we're just being manipulated. Um and then we allow ourselves to be because like it's comfortable essentially. And what what you were saying about um the average American, like the that the garments will be worn five to ten times. I mean average American. It's just it disgusts me so much to think that like America is making such a problem for the rest of the world. And it feels like there's it's like the there's all these like other countries that have to stay underdeveloped, that have to be exploited in order for us to be where we are. Like this, like it just we couldn't have what we have if we weren't exploiting other people and other countries and other people's resources. Um, like I I was listening to an analyst talking about how um if everyone lived the way that Americans lived on earth, like oil, the price of oil would be like through the roof because everyone will be driving personal vehicles and all of these things. Um, and you just realize like this just does not make sense. And like we are like these like fat, spoiled little babies, and they just keep putting like lollipops in our mouths, being like, don't ask questions, just keep buying.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yeah, and it and it's reinforced that this is aspirational, right? Yes, like like have buy the things, have and even even better, have a story, right? Have a story of you grew up with um little or next to nothing, and then you made a bunch of money and now purchase these items that we have deemed as status symbols that we're will project to your inner social circles as well as the rest of the world that you are a person of a certain level. Um and we just we just reinforce that, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah, and I think sometimes I I see like people being like super flashy on Instagram, like people with like a bunch of sports cars, like living in the Middle East and things like that. And I'm like, could we ever convince these people to give up this lifestyle? And it feels like, no, they couldn't fathom it, but it's it's not what makes you happy, like right. Like I think we all know, but then what I'm like, why does anybody keep going down this rabbit hole? But that's so hypocritical of me because I definitely have aspirations, like there, you know, and and then I'm I'm buying the story of um this is gonna give that to me. The marketing is telling me that like I'm gonna have this. So, like, for example, um, like for example, with what you were saying about like a scratched cutting board, I like we've transitioned plastic out of the house, right? And like switched everything to like natural fibers, natural materials, which is great, but like you definitely have to in that process have to go through like the well, this is a great sweater. I've had it for years, but it's made with polyester. Like, is it better to keep this or is it better to replace it? Something natural. And so, like, we I did that really slowly. Um, and now I'm obviously like very aware of like what the natural fiber brands are, like who's making what. And maybe you've heard of Doen. Do you know that one? I have, yeah. Low key, I feel like it's evil. They're not gonna sponsor me. Um, like the prices are just so insane. And then they like I finally I bought like a shirt on um sale, and then I was like, I put it on, it's like I just feel nothing. Like I I think I thought that like this was gonna make me like a milkmaid, and I wasn't gonna have my nine to five job anymore, you know? Like like I'm like, wait, like walk it back. Like, what did you think was gonna happen there? Right. And like, and then I just like looked at it so differently that like, oh, this is really just selling me some type of belief. It's it's it's like a fallacy, it's making me think that I'm gonna have all these things that I'm not gonna have. Um just getting getting preyed on like that. But then I then I think about so what if everybody stopped producing crap? What if everybody stopped that bullshit? Um, I'm gonna have like an explicit warning on this. I don't think that um what would they do with their time? Like, you know, like the people that are making this stuff, they're trying to get rich, they're trying to make a life for themselves, they have aspirations, like they want to, you know, they want to be someone, be something. Like what fundamentally, like what's driving people into doing that in the first place, too. You know what I mean? Like and that gets back to I think the fulfillment that we're set up to derive from our lives, um, the way that we're living. Like in my mind, I'm like, if we were all just like in like tents by the river, like we'd be so happy, we wouldn't need all of this stuff, you know? Um so it it's it's such a deep problem, right? It's and it's um it's to fix it is so many layers, I think. Just there's there's individual responsibility, right? Like like you are taking that that definitely makes a difference. And like vote with your dollar and you you are so I have pulled this stat up for us. Um, because I love that thread up tells you this buying a dress secondhand and wearing it 10 times saves the equivalent of 1,264 glasses of water, 537 hours of LED light bulb, and 2.61 miles of driving.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

So Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

The concept that like a single person can have an impact is so true in this case, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:28

I I definitely believe that, you know. I mean, I think I'm a big proponent of focus on what you can control, right? And you talked about having aspirations, and I think there's like having aspirations and then there's what you value, and it's kind of aligning the two. Um, and social media and marketing is so good at selling us like an aesthetic or like the milkmaid, like you know, the lifestyle it's like, oh, I'll buy this thing and then I'll feel that way, or I'll become this woman or this person, right? Um, but no single item that you can buy is gonna do that. It I think it's more of like living in alignment with what you you truly want. Um and again to get back to I feel like I'm a big proponent of focusing on what you can control. I I I don't say that to say that I ignore these larger issues because clearly I'm in I'm invested in them and I I like to know what's going on, you know, with with our country, what we're doing to other countries by our behavior. Um but then I take a step back and say, okay, so now I know this, and maybe this information is disheartening to me um and a bit destabilizing. What can I do with that? Um, Claudia, you've probably seen the memes. Tell me if you haven't, but of uh billionaires, you know, traveling the world world in their PJs, but here I am with my freaking paper straw. So it's like there are these huge forces that are at play. What can I really do as just this one single person that's trying to make something better? And I get that. Like I think there's validity to that, and again, we need to acknowledge like those bigger forces and what they're doing. But then I'm just it's just in me to be like, okay, and what can I do? Um, it and it does like those thread up stats that you read, it does make a huge difference. And not only that, but I have it's once you make a decision and you kind of live with this purpose, it's going to ripple out, it's going to first ripple out to your family, to your closest friends. I had a friend um who loves, loves, loves, loves to shop, is super freaking fabulous and fashionable and on point all of the time. Um say to me, Hey, I was going to buy a new outfit for this event, but then I thought you always outfit repeat. So I'm just gonna wear the same thing that I've worn before because I love it and I know I look good in it. And you know, it's like, okay, all the people in the world, that's super small, but again, I do think there's like this uh communal energy and all those actions that we take, it will permeate out.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Oh yeah. Oh my God, I'm obsessed with that. That is such positive feedback, and it's so true. Like we mirror each other. Like, why are people even buying all these things trying to show them off because they think someone's gonna be impressed with it, right? Like if if the message that you're sending instead is like, I'm impressed with like how mindful you are, or I'm impressed with like how you take care of the planet, like that becomes the bar. So, like, we can change the tide. Oh my god, I love that so much. And you read my mind because I was gonna say, what has the reaction been to you? Because I like I want to know for a couple of reasons, like to your no buy journey, to be clear. I want to know because I want to know for my own purpose, like, are people down with this? Like, are we gonna be accepted if we do this? And then I also want to know, like, I often feel like I go against the grain a lot. Like, I have all of these weird interests and hobbies, and I don't even bring them up to my friends anymore sometimes because I'm like, you're just not gonna be able to follow it. Like, it's just gonna be it's just gonna land so weird. But like, I'll talk to you in like 10 years when it's mainstream. Yeah. So, like, yeah, has that have you had to deal with feeling like you're going against the grain doing this? Um, and has that been uncomfortable? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah, it's it's interesting because I feel like I've always had a rebellious nature. Um, and I feel like the closest people to me would describe me in that way. Um, so it it wasn't so much like I was concerned with how other people would perceive it as much as I I have so many interests and so many at times it can seem competing interests, and I can be kind of all over the place, right? Like I'm a big dreamer, a daydreamer, I'm a Pisces, whatever that means to you. Like take that for what that is. I'm like flowing from one thing to the thousandth thing on my list that I want to do. And so more than anything, it was can I do it? Am I actually gonna stick to this? Was sort of my my biggest thing that I was that I was bucking up against was me. It really wasn't other people, it was myself and how I perceived the process and how I could actually make meaningful change in the way that I consumed.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah. You touch on something that I feel like is part of the bigger problem we're facing as a whole, which is that the problem like was you, like you would just face yourself, right? And the I feel like people just are not willing to like sit with themselves and go deep and be uncomfortable. And that's the reason that it like can ruffle some feathers when you're like, oh, I'm not doing that thing anymore. Because people are like, oh, like it automatically makes you think like, oh, well, maybe I shouldn't be doing that thing, and that's an uncomfortable feeling to face, right? Yeah. And I've honestly thought so much about how I could personally fix this problem, but it's so much bigger than just like you or I. And it just I think, and this is the totally went down a rabbit hole, but I think that facing yourself is like only scary a little bit in the beginning. It's like you just face the problem and then it's like downhill from there. But that like initial hump is just so uncomfortable. And I'm I'm talking about could be anything, like I was a jerk to someone on the freeway with this morning, or like I've been rude to my boss at work, or like I shouldn't be buying all this stuff. Like it could be anything you know you need to deal with. Um, it's we just are have like walked away from ourselves, basically, you know, and the earth, the earth is like a reflection of that too. Like, because we're we're one, you know. I think that's true.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

I think that's so true that it's just like the initial fear or whatever uncomfortable emotion you have that set in, and then it kind of goes downhill in a good way. I I never know where whether to say going downhill or it's like uphill battle, but then it's going downhill, both come back. Um just just a walk in the park, let's say, from there. Um, but I think that yeah, we I I agree with what you said earlier too, about like facing our discomfort. I think that yeah, currently in society, it's oh, you're you're feeling discomfort, you're feeling a negative emotion. You don't you don't need to feel that just buy drink this, take that, do this, and it's all masking on top of masking on top of masking. Um, and so that when people, other people pronounce I'm doing this thing or I'm abstaining from this behavior or habit, it almost feels like an attack. It could feel like an attack on yourself because there's something, there's a signal that rises up in you that says, like, I'm not I'm not happy with my behavior in this this area. Um, and I feel maybe I feel judged or ashamed when really this this other person is just doing this thing for them. Yeah, but it's sending off these spidey senses in you. Um and yeah, I think I think every negative emotion is a signal, and we we truly need to look at it and then decide um how we're how we're gonna respond to it.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Yeah. I I emotions are like such a like hot topic for me. I spend so much time thinking about feelings, and it's like they're information. And and then when you think about emotions are like instincts, um, like animal instincts, like you wouldn't necessarily have been able to like put a word to that feeling before we had language as a species, but it told you to do something, it told you to take some action, right? And um those things like can be misconstrued now, or maybe we're we're being fed different options for action. Um what was I gonna say? It's like I to me, to me, the way that I have seen life work and like the universe work is like you you put things off if you like if you continue to ignore or you know not do the things that you know you're gonna do, they all it always comes crashing down on you, right? Like there's a few people that were I'm like that person needs to get their crash, you know, but like for the most part, I feel like it always comes back around. And so, like what you're saying with masking, it's like we've just masked and masked and masked this problem and like it's coming crashing down on us um in so many ways that's it's scary to think about, honestly, right? Like, does this do you feel scared? I like feel bad bringing it up to people because I'm like, I don't want to inflict this bad feeling on people because it is so scary, but it's horrifying to see like the piles of stuff, you know, the the the rivers full of plastic and the piles of garments um in in South America and things like that, for example.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

It is. It's it's absolutely horrifying. It's like the best horror movie of all time in my world. Um, but no, look, I I the first like I guess turning point for me was I watched a documentary. It was called, I think it was called The True Cost or The True Cost of Fashion. This was in 2015 on Netflix, and I was deep into forever 21 culture at this time. It was like, this is the best thing ever. I had heard the term sweatshop, but I was in my teens. I was in my my late teens, early 20s when I was I had first heard the term sweatshop. And I didn't, it didn't I knew that it was bad, but I didn't know exactly what it meant. Then fast forward to 2015, I seen this documentary and it really changed a lot for me. And then basically it uncovered this whole other world to me and reflected back to me how I was shopping and the damage that I was unwittingly doing every time I would go to Forever 21 and think and get that yellow. Oh my god, that I still get like a slight dose yellow bag, you know. Um, and it was such such an experience. And he's like, I'm gonna push these prices, like they're amazing. And I had already been thrifting for most of my life because my dad was a thrifter. Like he would go to Goodwill and he would come back with some really cool pieces. And at the time when I was very young, I would go along with him on these trips because I just thought it was cool. Like I loved the history of all the different items that were in the store. I didn't know or connect to the environmental or human aspect of shopping that way. But all that to say, um, I think that it's it's um it's easy to look at the landfill piles and how we have fallen into vast fashion. I talk about my Forever 21 history today, Shein, right? Like that forever 21 is today Shein. But I think in line with despair, right next to it is hope. And I almost think that can't exist without the other, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Um I mean, so like let's talk about some hopeful solutions, like what yeah, I think one of the first things that comes to mind, well, there's two things. Um I love have you seen the girl? I've probably sent you her videos. I can't remember what her name is, but she's really cute. She has dark hair, and her pages called something like sustainable fashion or and she does like investigative journalism. Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Oh yes, yes, I do. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

I want to have her on here. She she is doing God's work. And I was thinking, well, she's doing all work. She is like, and I think that um it's crazy because she's just one person. I mean, I'm sure there's other people doing that work, but she's doing it in the format that like this generation wants to consume it in, which is in these cute little like quick TikTok videos. I say cute because she's so cute, but like the content of the videos is like very depressing. Um but and people are paying attention to it. And I think people care if they if it's like if the they just don't go f and find the information themselves, right? Like it has to be like presented to you. It needs to be digestible. And the the quick thing is important because our attention spans are getting so freaking short. Um, but she's she's doing amazing. And I I also think that Gen Z is like onto this more. Like I Gen Z is like really into thrifting, like hardcore and bringing back all of our old styles. And like that's amazing. So that gives me hope. And then I guess one question I have for solution-wise, like I don't know what what would you say to somebody? I guess the answer is always thrift, but like, what would you say to somebody that like doesn't want to buy fast fashion, but maybe doesn't feel like they have other options, you know, or stuff like that. Yeah, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah, that's that's totally fair. That's a fair point. Um, and I would say, like, to your uh previous comment too about Gen Z being into thrifting, that is so hopeful to me that it's like it's super cool, right? And I know that like when I was thrifting with my dad in the 90s, like that was kind of in the 90s, like that coffee shop grunge, like thrift was kind of cool, but it wasn't as mainstream as it is today, right? Now it's just it's all the girlies are thrifting and kind of filming their their thrift shop visits. But um, when we talk about solutions for someone who essentially or mostly shops fast fashion and doesn't feel like they have a lot of other options, I would my my first instinct is to kind of meet them where they're at, right? Because everyone has like a different situation, and so if that's what's within their budget, let's say I mean you have, you know, your you could have your fellow American that's a single mom and has multiple children and doesn't have much time, and all they have time to is to go shopping is on their lunch break from their second job, and it's going to let's say the target or whatever is closest to them down the street. In that case, I would say you can look after fabrics like you were saying, Claudia. Like, I feel like you actually know more about the great fabrics than I do because I I default to like secondhand shopping and thrifting and just kind of buying whatever in that realm. Um, you could look into you know what fabrics are more sustainable and better quality and are gonna last longer. I would also say, too, to kind of take a step back, because again, our society makes us think we need so much more than we actually do. Um, so what do you already have at home that might look a little rusty or a little bit worn, but you can repair and rewear? And I say this as someone who is not a gifted seamstress in any way. My dad could also sew. That guy who was a thrifter who would take in his ribshops, he could also sew. I cannot. I even taking a sewing class is just not something that was innate in me, but I highly respect it. When I talk about repairing, rewearing, it's like I just I just take the scissors to it and reimagine something. I use Pinterest, how can I pivot this garment into something new and give it new life? Um also again, going back to community, I feel like we can all try and share more with each other. Um, so what can you have from your family and friends that they're not using, and vice versa? What can you swap? Um, what kids in your family have grown out of their clothes that you could then inherit? I think that I'll I'll close this um response with another theme that we've talked about, which is hope. My greatest hope for us is our creativity. I think people are so freaking creative. Um, so those are just a couple like thought starters, but take what I've said, and people are so, so, so creative with solutions. Um, so if you feel like fast fashion is your only option, I get that. And then maybe these are little tweaks that you can take to preserve what you already have and and keep it for longer.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Yeah. Um, I just have to say that my dad and I thrifted a lot together too. And it was also not, yeah, not for the humanitarian aspect, but like he just liked cool things. Like he just wanted to have things that no one else wanted to have. And like everything was vintage to the point where it's like I inherited so much like old metal junk when he passed away. I was like, this is really annoying. But um, to your point about people being creative, have you seen those TikToks of people are taking like scarves and turning them into shirts and all that? Yeah, that's a that's a great point. And also for the sharing, um, I mean, nothing is as wasteful as kids' clothes. We haven't even talked about this, but they grow out of them so fast. So I know, like with my stepson, like I buy him something and then his taste changes the next day and he doesn't want it anymore. And I'm like insane about like knowing like which moms I can give which stuff to. And I never want to ask for it back, but I'm always hoping like give it back to me when I have kids, and then like we'll just keep like sending it around. And I know there's moms, I see moms online that do um like swaps like that for kids' clothes. I think that's so important. Um, and actually, I had an idea for an app. I had this idea with my sister, whereas like you could um have an app that kind of like chronicled for you what was in like your friends and family's closets so that when you are going to an event, you can like shop their closet from your phone too. I'm like, hey, can I borrow that? And I was like, you could hook it up to your email and it would just automatically like load in like the things that you're buying. But then we were like, how would you make money on that? Like, no, like you would like it would just have to be like a free project, you know, like it would take a lot of time. My brother's an engineer, but like I had haven't recruited him for that yet. Um, but yeah, I I mean, I think I think there's a theme in a lot of the things that we've talked about, which is that like we have to get louder about it, right? Like there's a lot of people, great people like solving things on Instagram for us or giving us the information we need to make better decisions on Instagram. You're seeing in real life like the impact on um like your friends and family with your no buy challenge. I for sure talk about Thread Up a lot. I don't know that I've influenced anyone to buy from there yet. Um, but I hopefully I will. And earlier too, you said something about needing to be in alignment with our values. Um and one thing I've started asking myself, so I went to Yosemite and it up in like the, we were up in like the, you know, Tioga Pass area, like Tony Meadows. And we're I was listening to the ranger talk about how they're not getting as much snow up there as they should be. Like that whole area closes down every winter. You there's two rangers, only two rangers that live back there because it's so like desolate and like rugged and snowed in. And then you see all the snow melt and you have these beautiful rivers and like the glaciers that carved everything, like all this water just impacts it so much. And it's like, if that region gets less water, what is happening to the rest of California and what's happening to the rest of the world? And um now I'm like, I'm every time I'm gonna want to buy something, I'm gonna ask myself, do you want to have snow in Yosemite or do you want this shirt? Like, what's the value here? You know, because like that, the them like the feeling for me of like standing in that place and experiencing like the power of nature and the power of water and just everything working in perfect harmony there is so much more powerful than wanting a shirt or wanting a gadget, right? So maybe that's something people can hold on to too, is like find a happy place and like bring that feeling up for you. Um, but yeah, I think our consumption is affecting the planet a lot, obviously. Um, warming and the resources that go into it. And and we in the US are a little bit um protected from it. Like we're not in, we're not down closer to the equator, experiencing as much drought as everybody else is. Um, and that it just seems so unfair in that way. It really does. Sorry to take us from like hope back to it being so unfair. But is there anything else that you want to say about that? I guess just the impact on the environment and the planet.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

No, it's okay because it's all linked, right? And I think that that's like a good point you made to tie us back to our values and finding something that like strongly resonates with you as your why of um shopping the way that you do or being more thoughtful or mindful about it. Um, one thing I guess, like just to add insult to Adrian, like, let's talk about more ways that we're harming the planet, is that like with the microplastics and just these cheap um materials that typically fast fashion, you know, real retailers are producing their garments in, um, that's a lot of like pollution and waste in the oceans. And so again, it's it's sort of this like out of mind or out of sight, out of mind experience where it's like you could say, I love to go to the beach on one hand. I really like otters, you know, whatever the thing is that you like, but then the way that you're consuming could potentially be contributing to massive like ocean pollution and waste. And I I like to caveat all this with saying, like, I never, I never want to like shame or or judge someone for the way that they're shopping and think that we're we're living in some version of um like Blade Runner, you know, to where it we're having like ads just like shoved in front of our faces at all times and all this data being collected on us. Um it's really hard. It's really hard to say, yes, this is what's being served to me, but I'm going to do something different. That is not something that I I think that is taken lightly, you know. Yeah. To just like, oh, just align it with your values and then just like be a better person. I don't that's not that's not how I want to come across at all, but um it it's it's really hard, but it's definitely doable to make like some type of of change.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah, I feel super aligned with that. I have so much compassion for like how people struggle and that type of stuff and agree, don't want to shame anyone for it. I think we can only do as good as like the information we have, right? And I think so many people don't understand like how big of a problem this is, which is why I'm so happy that you came on the podcast today. So we can just like continue to share the message. It's just we just have to be louder, we just have to keep talking about it, you know. Like as I I work in marketing. So one of the things like I always have to remind my team is like, because like we already did that. I'm like, you have to do it again. You have to do it again and again and again and again, because not everyone saw it the first time and not everyone understood it. And like it has to stick in people's brains, like you have to be repetitive. And so, like, those of us that want to fight the good fight have to like take that same marketing tactic and keep saying it, right? Keep, keep because there are good people that have good intentions that just don't know. But if you can reach them with the proper information, then like people can make better decisions.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

It's so true. Uh, a previous boss of mine in the corporate workplace would say repetition doesn't spoil the prayer. That's what she would always say. And and it was like whatever message you know that we were wanting people to receive or wanting them to feel it's like repeat it over and over and over. And I like personally remember kind of posting about fast fashion, and people were like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like fast, I I don't know like what does that mean? And these were I remember like this one extremely stylish girl in particular responding to me, like, I don't know, I've never heard that before. And I'm like, Oh, okay. And sometimes I think maybe we go it when you're interested in something and you kind of go down this like path, you pick up certain vernacular. So maybe sometimes too it's it's like remember where you started from and then kind of like repeat that and make things more um practical practical for people to like pick up um and implement into their daily lives.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah, yeah, you have to meet people where they are, you know. 100%. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a pleasure having you. It was amazing. Thank you so much.