Episode 4 - Anju Gomes, Regional Director of ICCA

The business events industry plays a critical role in knowledge exchange, trade and economic growth. Anju Gomes joins the show to discuss the global meetings landscape, destination competitiveness and how associations continue to drive innovation, collaboration and international engagement.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Welcome back. Today's guest is Anjie Goats. Anju is a senior leader with 30 plus years in the global events industry with deep expertise across the Middle East and India. She drives regional strategy governance and high-impact event programs. She shapes how the industry connects and grows. She leads education, training, and content initiatives focused on capacity building, supporting the region's continued development. Andrew's played key operational roles in landmark events such as the IMF World Bank Meetings 2003, the UITP World Congress 2011, demonstrating the economic and infrastructure impact of business events in Dubai. Representing ICA, she continues to advance destination development and strengthen the region's global positioning. Welcome, Andre. Nice to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Thank you so much for inviting me. Firstly, uh Michael, it's uh a privilege to be here and I'm honored to be your guest. Um like you said, it's uh 30 years of my experience uh not just in the industry but in the region. And um, I must say that when I started my journey, it was not all about um what are you going to achieve post the event. It was just always working for the success of the event. But today the the meaning of event is changed. And it's more of uh uh a legacy that you are going to create. Uh, what is going to happen after event. Uh it's more on the ROI today or ROE today, rather than uh, you know, have a grand image building event and uh branding all the activities through the event. So today we are more thinking on what is going to be the impact uh of the event that is uh planned. And uh it's not just the impact to the organizer or in general to all the delegates, but the delegates are further divided into categories, uh, whether it is uh government authorities or um the Gen Z or the CEO level uh C-suite uh attendees. Each attendee is looking for an experience, is looking for what am I going to get more than networking. Earlier it was just networking, meeting people, because I don't think we had so much of uh Zoom calls, Teams calls. Uh I mean, I I I may feel a little bit old, uh, but when I entered the industry, we didn't have a mobile, uh, we didn't have emails. Uh we were looking forward for these events to meet people. That was the objective. But today uh you are satisfied with all these other um reasons for meeting. Uh uh, you just want to create uh an end goal uh for your discussions because you've already met this person 10 times, and now you want to close the the, you know, whatever the conversation you've had. And now the meetings are that um uh positioning themselves as like, okay, you can come and sign agreements, you can sign MOUs, you can launch uh your uh collaborations. And I think it's more and more uh created or curated by the organizations that okay, if you're participating in an event, it's not just to meet people for the first time, it's to close the conversation that you've been having over a period of time. And that's why planning is also important. If you plan an event one year later or six months later, then they start building on you know the deliverables already, like uh any trade show or any event that you see, even for the policymakers or even for the government authorities, what is the impact that the event is going to create post uh you know investing these huge funds to do the event? So I think more and more we are going towards uh uh legacy and impact uh and meaningful event, and it's not just gathering people in one roof and just giving them the opportunity to uh listen because nowadays there are so many uh educational um podcasts or reels or trainings that are happening online. So you really don't need to go back to this uh you know old uh model or the traditional way of doing the events.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, and I think that when I said that, I should probably correct myself because there's never a strict demarcation between networking events and and these more important uh sort of, I guess, oftentimes public sector or government-led events where they're talking about policy prescription and and uh economics and things like this, because there is networking at every event. But also when you when you have something that may be considered from some optics a more a higher pedigree event, um, when it's government involvement and and uh more VIP involvement, that's where the partnerships happen at a higher level. And that's where and and that is networking, and that is card sharing and card swapping and and getting to know one another. And because that's where the ideas spark, you know. And it's funny that you mentioned, you know, obviously us being in the in the business for a while and and um we we often talk about the old days and and you know how we didn't have it as well as the other ones had it. We when I was working in an office in 2000 in Montreal, and we had an old CRT monitor, yellowed monitor. We had to print out one of those uh accordion papers with leads on it when I was running a sales team uh for uh for sponsorship. And uh it was just this like these, and you had to ring up everybody and you had to make a hundred calls. It was yeah, it wasn't easy as easy as it is today.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, not that it's easy for anyone, but it's just uh you know the add and the outcome used to be really great uh of those efforts that we did back in those days. Today you do mass mailing, you don't even know how many will really react. They open the mail, but do you have the action? So when you are talking to a person, you can get a yes or a no. Yeah. But when you send an email, you can't get a yes or no. It's always a maybe.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

And it's yeah, exactly. What I learned when I was when I was being sort of trained back in uh I guess 2000, when I was being trained by a sales, one of the sales directors, uh, when I started my foray into events in in in sales at that time, was a maybe is worse than a no. It's the worst thing you can get is a maybe because a maybe it's just gray area, it's vague, it goes nowhere, it goes on and on and on. But back then, because I was working in Montreal and the events that we were running were all for the American market, all the conferences we had were in California and Michigan and Florida and all of that. So that was a little bit different because it was a different part of the world here. You've done a lot internationally, you've done a lot regionally. So between the two, and as and of course, with you know the program, when you're building a program, what what is the sort of striking difference between the more regional, I guess, uh, you know, positioning or messaging uh through a program of what you're trying to do compared to something that's more international for Ica?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Normally, uh, whenever you are planning any event, it starts from at a city level, goes to a country level, it goes to the regional level, and then of course international. So everybody who is in this industry, they they want to grow their business. At the end of the day, it's all about business.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

And Ica's role has always been uh uh to bring international knowledge. Um and everybody is more keen to know international knowledge at home, right? On home ground, because you have more people uh who can attend and uh not travel for that international knowledge. So mainly our focus has always been first, because it's the host, country, or city that's uh wants to achieve their own objective.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

So their objective is primary. Uh then, of course, it's you want the regional participation. So the regional objectives are also highlighted. And then, of course, the international objectives, because you are a global industry. So you it's always a give and take as far as uh educational events are concerned. And Ica is always doing association, uh, you know, promoting association uh meetings, which is which is considered to be like a university or you know, an education hub that everybody looks after. That what can I gain out of it? So our objective is always uh a mix of all these um elements to ensure that all the delegates are receiving what they need. So we try to bring international speakers, mix it up with the local speakers. So it's a case study, uh, international benchmarking and what the region is doing, what the destination is doing. And at the end of the day, we want to ensure that maximum people get the benefit of the event. So when the event is at home, an organization would bring more than two delegates. Like they will say, okay, I want my whole team to be part of this, they need to have the exposure, they need to have experience. But sometimes because of the budget, you cannot take them with you to international events to listen to the international speakers. So when we get the international speakers, there is, you know, more people getting the education. And then even in the region, if somebody's coming from Saudi Arabia to UAE, they'll say, oh, it's it's a short distance. I can bring a larger team, more people can get uh educated. So similarly, we try to bring international and regional together in a mix where maximum people from the organization is hearing the international experience, trying to uh benchmark or uh learn out of it and you know, apply it uh in their existing uh jobs. And also education as like a training or uh as a workshop, it will help and it brings in uh an international flavor into the local flavor. And the world is also always planning to grow, right? So the uh international uh audience are also very much interested in local uh events so that they can meet more people, they can experience firsthand about what's really the culture, the uh uh you know, the destination value. A very classic example I have is uh the Middle East Summit uh that Ica organizes or a regional summit. We always have a city-based event, and then we have a regional event, and then of course we have ICA Congress, which happens annually in different parts of the world. So I've noticed that I have uh so much of um uh interest and uh from the regional people to have this Middle East summit, but to bring international speakers, bring international practices to ensure how are we doing against that. So it's very important to amalgamate all of them, uh, and then only the product is really uh essential or it becomes important for other people to attend.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

So I think that um, you know, like what you said about having that sort of merge between international and regional, and of course that that that exchange is so so important. I think that's why the UAE is such an important hub for events, uh, you know, for many, many reasons, but I think mostly because it really sits on that sort of motto of global context, local relevance.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I mean, nobody does that better than here. You when you are in when you're in, if you're in Istanbul, you know you're in Istanbul. You're at that, you're at a Turkish conference, you're at an Istanbul conference. If you're in Tokyo, it's it's Tokyo, Tokyo, Tokyo. The UA has a way of making things feel really international while never forgetting where you are, yeah, you know, and really, really projecting and amplifying that. So that you talk about education, you talk about capacity building, uh, and how that's so important to Ica. And um, and I think throughout your career that's been incorporated in a lot of of what you do. What do you think in the nicest way possible, what do you think that young event professionals could be missing or could work on or could uh put more focus on in today's events from an event perspective, not just from an ICA perspective, not from any particular um, you know, event agency or even regional international, but event professionals today. How do you feel they could sort of improve their, I guess, mindset? I I don't know how else to say it.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

I mean, this is a great question. Um, and it's it's very um, how do I say it makes me feel um that today the the events industry has really grown to an extent where the the individual roles are divided into different career perspectives. We always have this uh discussion about the Gen Zs joining our industry. Our industry is really having a lot of uh people running it still from having 20, 30, 40 years of experiences. And what we have noticed is that the new generation, they're very um uh attracted to the industry, but there is a gap. It's a good and a bad thing because we have event management colleges, we have hospitality colleges which are covering events topics, we have vocational courses now, uh, which is telling you what how to be uh event professional. But unfortunately, the on-ground experience is what is lacking, you know. So they they are not able to evaluate the future of this industry.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

So uh whatever we may say, we are from my my uh era, I may call it, they are all so passionate about this industry. And if you don't have a passion, uh you will not thrive uh in this industry. And that's what is missing.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Is it more in the planning and development side that could be more of a focus? Or is you is it on the on-site, quick problem solving? We all know the two o'clock phone call, two o'clock in the morning because a rigging point is not working. There's a lot of this change the program, we need to remove this or get a new speaker, someone dropped out. There's so many different things. Do you think that the young event professionals of today are now, you know, as strong within that problem-solving capacity?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

They are picking it up quickly, but there is a lot more balance in their lifestyle uh as a professional and a social lifestyle. So they really want to define and keep it separate. Yeah. You know, in the past we mixed it up a lot. So your colleagues became your friends, and then you're always talking work and you're always doing work, but it's not the case today. And uh, I think there is uh a l a big role for the policymakers or the education industry uh to play uh so that they are trained in the right, you know, when you call it business events. Business events is so many uh activities. They include exhibition, it includes incentives, it it includes tourism as well as it includes uh association meetings or rather meetings industry. But it's so different from each other that somebody who would like to deliver an event, something like Gitex, you know, and suddenly they are that's an event, it's an events industry, right? If you are some working in a Gitex uh exhibition. And at the same time, if you put them in, say, uh an association meetings, uh, it's so different. Oh, yeah. It's it's like a north and a south pole. So somebody who comes from uh that industry and it's sitting here, they will not uh enjoy because they loved that uh exposure and running around.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

But it's important to go back and forth, right? Let's understand the commercial heavy like Gitex is a beast, Gulf Food's a beast, these Adipec is a beast. These are things you you come into. They're not they're certainly by no means self-driven, but they've been around for a long time. Yes, and they need a big team where no mistakes can can can happen. But then you've got these small association events, these institutional events, these small, whether it's a workshop round table, whether it's a trade mission, yeah, you know, um, then there's some it's there's something more intimate about that. There's something more uh you're dealing face-to-face.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

It's like impact, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:49

It's like deadlines and and more sort of understanding, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

The cause of one error uh in Gitex or in a small meeting, it's the same. The repercussions are the same. Right. So the the seriousness or the commitment is the same, yeah. But it's not uh, you know what you call it, it doesn't release certain amount of toxins in you when you are in 50,000 events versus 1,000 events. Yeah. So, you know, that's the kind of uh adrenaline that uh the the new generation misses in these different activities. And I think I I go back to every time saying that if they don't understand the purpose, yeah, they will never be able to deliver wholeheartedly. And association meetings are more purpose-driven, yeah. Uh government meetings are more purpose-driven. There is a purpose for uh large exhibitions as well, but it's more for the traders or for the uh ultimate buyers. So it's like a B2B event.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Sometimes the large events are uh forgive me for saying because I it's not always like this, but it's like a spray and pray where you're you're you have a large event where deals can take place quite quickly. Yeah. But a lot of times, you know, these are, you know, they're having conversations. We'll get back to you. It could be months and months and months, and but then you these small, more intimate gatherings that are purpose-driven, that they're have a focus where they're coming together and they and they shake hands. And then things start to move quite quickly because they're they're sort of aligned in the idea and the sort of the spirit of what they're trying to achieve. Exactly. Um, you're right that it really needs to be uh um, you know, has to be more of a focus on on not of a focus, but I mean the event professional should always understand what happens with others with other events, different dynamics, different platforms, different sizes. And it's important for young people to to to you know to be involved in all of that where where it's possible, where they can. But I wrote an article quite some time ago on LinkedIn about the importance of sort of interoperability within events in terms of having the salesperson sit with the operations people for a short, short period of time, whether it's in the summer, maybe, maybe during Ramadan, maybe a slower time when when there's events that are um you know not pressing at that moment, and marketing people to sit with the salespeople and these people that everybody to sort of understand what goes on within each department, because sometimes there is that wall, there's that um like that, you know, that demarcation between the groups. And they don't really get an understanding. I think if you have uh sort of a mindfulness of of another uh of another team and what they're going through and what their deadlines and timelines look look like, then it might help you to sort of do your job in a different way that might be able to you know hold hands with everybody else, could shorten a timeline. At the very least, it does provide some sort of, I guess, professional empathy, you know?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's it's important that every department, every team member understands what you are trying to achieve. Because if you are looking at the definition of HR or marketing, or then they are so rigid that you don't get the flexibility to deliver the event in the capacity that you want to. Yeah. So it's um, I mean, that's why we are we have launched our training program for the entire organization and we encourage marketing and HR, everybody to participate in this uh training so that they understand the purpose and the importance of these events so that they are not considered as just like, you know, a gathering. It's no more just a gathering.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

So another beast, the ICA Congress is, I mean, this is a very large scale event that you've got your hands full with this. Um obviously in the preparation, probably starting a year in advance, you know, little by little, and then um, of course, having it in different countries and different cities. When you're uh creating the program or even creating a new Concept. What's the first thing that comes to mind? Obviously, things evolve in the world, you know, different ideas evolve within the rules and regulations for conferences, or different countries start setting up new initiatives or subsidies or something for, you know, you always have to be aware of what's happening. And of course, how it affects potentially like maybe tourism in in different countries. So how does how does your sort of developmental process in, I mean in your mind and your team's mind, you know, how how does it sort of the mechanics come together to create a the right program or create a new event for Ica?

SPEAKER_00 22:38

So you know, I mentioned to you that Ica is an educational hub. So education was always our primary motive, but it's shifting. Uh it's shifting from uh trying to balance event design, education, collaboration, business deals, business ROI. So it's all of it now that they want. They don't want just to come for education. They want to see what business am I going to bring home? Because when I'm going for approvals of these events to attend or to sponsor or to participate or to partner with, the management is definitely going to ask you, what is it going to bring back home? So it's again going back and back and back and forth to the impact of that event to your homegrown, even if it is somewhere this year. We are having it in Panama, and you know, the region will say, Panama is like 36 hours of drive for me, I mean, uh ride for me, or 27 hours minimum to come that far. What am I going to bring back home? So the first thing that comes to our mind is always how are we going to generate business opportunities for those members who are going to travel that far and invest a week's time in that event? That's the first. Uh then, of course, it's the event design because how are you going to ensure that once you have all those people in that place, that each of them meet each of them, right? So we don't want to have uh a packed uh parallel sessions of 10 uh, you know, uh sessions happening and people are just running from one room to the other and they're not able to talk, but they're just listening. Yeah. And then, you know, you have a very small window of like 20 minutes of coffee break, and then you barely go and stand in the queue for the coffee and the break is over. So you don't get the opportunity. So now we it's a lot of uh effort to put white space in the event so that people are able to uh collaborate. We're we're making a conscious effort to ensure what are the deals getting signed off, which are which members are having a real conversation of future events because we do bring uh associations, uh hundred plus associations are participating in every event, which is like 100 events. Now each association will carry two events in their own uh association. There are multiple series of events that they have, it's of course at the regional level, international level. So you have 100 divided by two, that's like 200 leads just from the associations. Then you have meeting management members who are core PCOs of the global world and they are outbound DMCs. So those are also business for you. So how are you going to meet them and how are you going to ensure that there is a constructive conversation to bring a fam trip to your destinations? Or what's the kind of business that this destination or the region is delivering for my region? So if it is in Latin America, how many people from Latin America is coming to Middle East every year? So that's my benchmark to say, oh, you know, there is 2.5 million people coming from there. So I want to ensure that I'm ready uh to give them a product to attract them to my uh destination. So that's the kind of uh uh planning that we are trying to do of where they can uh really do this real conversation. At the same time, we have a C-suite level uh who are not really doing this uh one-on-one meeting with everybody, but they really want to share experience with the same uh you know capacity. Yeah. So we have like a closed door workshop for them, which is like uh less than a hundred people out of the thousand five hundred or thousand eight hundred people that come to the event. We gather those hundred people in one room and then you know we work out like a workshop session. It's not a panel discussion, it's not just telling people what you want or what you have uh achieved, but it's about how uh you know how we can work together. So those are another kind of uh activities that we do. We also have a very fun activity uh where we have like a challenge night where we challenge each region to compete with each other. You always compete with business, but you know uh we also help them to become a child. Because every human has a child in them. So it's uh fun time and they play and they are uh, you know, just uh interacting with each other at the child level competitiveness where you want to play and you want to win the game. So it builds the bond, uh, which is a different bond. And uh so these are all the different activities.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Well, it breaks a bit of tension as well, makes people feel a little more decomposed.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

And also we give importance to the local host who is investing so much of uh you know time and the whole city, and always the impact and legacy is also on top. We always involve the right organizations to ensure that there is less food, there's no food waste, there is sustainable uh transport utilized, there is uh uh, you know, uh we ensure that there is a well-being uh of the delegates. So we have all these elements built into the Congress. So it's it's targeting towards everybody's uh, you know, uh interest. So it's not just business, it's not just well-being, it's it's a lot of elements put together that makes a successful event. And people look forward to attend our events because they they have a mix of everything else. And it's also to take back the best practices because Ica is always trying to create a benchmark event that people would like to uh replicate. Um, and uh we've been very successful in the past uh you know, 10 years, 20 years, that we are delivering the event where they say, Oh, this was good in ICA event. We should apply this for our event, or we should tell uh this to our organizers or you know, our PCOs or uh management, meeting management people so that they can, you know, apply this or take this experience back to their clients to say, oh, this is what Ica did, and you should do this for your event, and it will bring such great value.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

That's huge though. I mean, the the the Congress. I mean, not to put aside all of the other events that take place during the year, but the the Congress itself is so fragmented into so many different incredible um side events and sort of peripheral or uh events, it's uh it's amazing that the team must be going full on for a very long time to get this right. And it always it's always successful. I mean, the reviews I hear, you know, and the I when I do go on LinkedIn and I see all of the uh all of the comments made. So it's really, really incredible that you guys accomplish something like this constantly and consistently year on year. But you know, I don't have you for much longer, and I want to ask you just a couple of follow-up questions, not follow-up questions, but sort of sort of as an aside type questions that I mean that's probably gonna catch you off guard. One is can you think of the proudest moment you had in the last 30 years? What have you accomplished in your career that you feel was like a real one of probably many sort of bright, bright moments that that you reflect on that you you would love to replicate regularly?

SPEAKER_00 30:31

I can go on with that one question for one hour.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

I feel very, very, very privileged to be part of the economy impact that events that I was part of created for this city. Yeah um it makes me uh my you know, I it makes me feel so proud that uh I get goosebumps every time I talk about it. Yeah. So back then when I came to uh Dubai in 1995, there was no uh focus of where I'm gonna go and work. So I always say the the career selected me. So event management, when I entered into it, it selected me. And uh I didn't select it, but I just went on with it. And that time we didn't have a lot happening in Dubai, of course. We didn't have the World Trade Center, we didn't have all this infrastructure that we have today. Uh population was not uh, it was probably uh one-fourth of what we have today. So I have two incidents that uh really make me proud uh of where I am and what I have done. One of them was uh bidding for uh IMF World Bank event back in uh 1999 to be part of that group when we didn't even have a convention center. And the requirement of that event is to have at least 30,000 uh square meters of place. And we just had hall number one and two and three, four. So it was a time uh when we were trying to bring Dubai on the map uh of the convention, convention map, you know. Um and uh when we won that bid, uh the vision and the vision of that uh destination was to bring such events again and again, of course. But um uh His Highness uh Sheikh Mohammed uh Bim Rashid was so uh helpful at that time to to ensure that we achieved that uh uh vision of bringing large events. And that's how the uh you know the establishment of the Woltre Center happened. And uh I was part of it from 1999 to 2003 because we delivered that event in 2003, and it was one of the best uh events, even they um uh acknowledged uh it attracted over 18,000 people uh to Dubai, and it was the first time ever we did such a large event in Dubai. On back of that event, multiple hotels were built because uh, you know, we didn't have as many. Um and uh it makes me feel proud every time I walk the concourse because I was the first to experience that uh venue. It's amazing. Um and then uh post that, of course, it never stopped. Uh that's how I learned about impactful events, like what can an event do to a city? It's turned the whole city. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

And uh change everything.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

It just changed everything. And then the next was uh my collaboration with the International Transport Uh Association, which uh is called as UITP. My um involvement with them was just to bring a small event of 200 people. But of course, they have a large event like a Congress, and uh we bid for uh the large events, and then you know, of course, we lost it initially. And we tried to then go and sit around and said, we have the venue, we have the infrastructure, what is missing? Why why are we not bringing this event? And then we realized that we needed a regulatory body, we didn't have uh, then we were having to buy municipality, we didn't have RTA as a body, and then you know, we wanted these large events to come. So the regulatory body was established in 2005, and then we bid again, and we bought the smaller event, and then we bid again, and then in 2009, uh actually, not 2009, yeah, 2009 we won the 2011 uh UITP Congress because one of the criteria was that you should have public transport. And back then we were not so uh, you know, we didn't have metro or the metro just and that's how metro came uh because we wanted to uh bring these large uh transport events. So the RTA was established and then the Metro was formed. So today when I see Metro line, I said, okay, you know, that was one of the uh achievements through these events that we bring, and then this the community uh uh benefits from it, and it's the impact uh for the community rather than just for those visitors who come during that event. And uh, you know, it's it's uh one of them is to spend in hotels and spend in uh transport or food when they are there. But once they are gone back, what does the city have uh from them? And we have the Metro line because of that.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So Well, conferences are platforms of conversation, and conversations breed ideas and ideas foster.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

And that's my two very, very uh, you know, strong achievements that I feel proud of.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

I think the the sort of the undertone of of of both of those really was based on the the Dubai, I guess in general, the UAE, but the Dubai, in this per in this case, the Dubai engine that just never stops running when it comes to events and the support from his highness and the Dubai leadership. My next question, uh, and this is this is the last question I have, um completely honest, is what do you what would you like to see change in the events industry? Could be a regulatory or a policy thing. What would you like to see uh change for the events industry from a regional perspective, even from a UAE perspective? What would you like to see more of or an expansion of or something completely change overnight uh that would help the events industry? This is a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

It has been my longing wish, actually, not just for UAE, but for the region, to have its own capacity of events professionals, not just have event managers and event coordinators, but event decision makers, uh head of events. And we still have a lot of international uh you know managers or international professionals who are here. But uh I think we really need the young generations. Uh so the main thing that what they can do at individual city level is to have event management as a professional course. Yeah. Uh and introduced at the school level, not just at the college level, but at the school level. Because today uh students of grade nine and ten, they're already deciding, or rather, even earlier, because they have to select subjects, right? And they don't see event management as a career.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Yeah. We could go on probably for hours, um, and then we'd end up drinking a lot of coffee. But I want to thank you so much, Andrew Gomes, for being with us and for sharing your very long-tenured perspective on all the events industries, um, nuances and and and the way that you you you think about uh how you work and how events work from a regional and from an international perspective. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Thank you so much, Mikey, for having me today here. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Thank you. The Backdrop Podcast was recorded at One Central Dubai, hosted by Michael McClennan and produced by Dan Powell.