unknown 0:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Alright, there's a new one. Okay. Yay. Paul's right with the world. Alright, so I'll officially apologize to Father Hare on this recording that I did not start on time with the recording. Sorry. Okay. Okay, good. That's on now that's official, right? So our communications director will edit it out, okay? Sorry I didn't, I forgot. Okay. I haven't done this in a while. Um so so and so the because the uh how the canon comes together, of course, the fact is that the the Catholic Church is through the the authority of the church that we we come to understand what the canon is. So the what I gave you was the was a chapter from this book, A Catholic Introduction to the Bible, the Old Testament, John's John Bergsner, Brant Petrie. Okay, this is the book I'm I I use because one of the things I think that I was curious about and actually learned something about, which we're going to learn together, is about the Old Testament canon. I think that's a that's a little bit more difficult to get our minds around. Because I think I can talk about the New Testament canon easily. Um, because what are we, what is considered an inspired book of the Bible? Because we know our Jewish brethren have a different Old Testament Bible than we have, and our Protestant brethren have a different Old Testament Bible than we have. So where did this, all these controversies come from? So, first of all, um the word, if you in page one about the middle, it talks about what the term canon means. And so we're not talking about artillery, okay? One less in, okay? So canon is derived from canon, which is a Greek word derived from the Hebrew canai, meaning a cane or reed. So you could use a reed as a measuring stick. So what we're saying is that the canon of Scripture is that measuring stick, right? So that we can, so that measuring stick of doctrine. So that's where the word why we have the word canon. So for example, in the church, we also talk about canon law. So it is the law derived from the teachings of the church, about the discipline of the church, right? It is the it is that measuring stick by which we measure everything else. So, and there's I I was lucky enough to avoid getting a doctorate in canon law. Thank you. I don't have to fly a desk. Okay, so really happy about that. So, so what so the canon, of course, we have 46 books of the Old Testament, 27 of the New Testament. Now, when we first consider the Old Testament, one of the things that we're gonna find is that in the time of Jesus, there was not a set canon of books that you could say was the Old Testament. So it wasn't compiled into one big book in the synagogue or in the temple. There wasn't like a big book. There were scrolls, different scrolls. So, for example, remember in Luke's Gospel when Jesus visits the synagogue in Nazareth, right? He unrolls the scroll of Isaiah, which is it, so they have a scroll of Isaiah. They don't have, you know, a scroll of the Old Testament, and he just he just opens up to that page. It's that they have a scroll of Isaiah. He opens up, of course, we know he this has fulfilled your hearing, and they tried to throw him off the hill, and they were, of course, unsuccessful because his hours are not going to come. We can get into the whole thing, that's another whole thing. But so we see that there, that we see Isaiah is being read in the synagogues in in the time of our Lord. But there's not a set group, you know, a set Old Testament. So, for example, so there's different groups that we can talk about. We could talk about the Sadducees, which are the high priestly class. So Sadducee is probably a derivative of uh as the as the high priestly class. We're supposed to be descended from the pre-Zadok, who was in the high priestly class in the tribe of Levi, and that's how they established their priestly lineage. So as the Sadducees, they were just into, they believed in the Torah, which is the first five books of the Bible. So we've got Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. That was what they considered their Bible and no other writing. The Samaritans were the same way, even though they're radically different theological perspectives, that that was where those two groups were had in common. Okay. Then you had the Pharisees, who I believe, according to Dr. Bergman, Dr. Petrie, that they had 22 of the Old Testament books, for example. There are the Essenes, okay, the Jewish monks, where we get the Dead Sea Scrolls from. These are Jewish monks living in the desert near the Dead Sea, right? They have a number of books that they are reading. And then we also, from, and then there is this source called the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, which were translated somewhere around, you know, sometime after 250 AD. And this is the book that we base our Old Testament from, the Septuagint. So if I towards the back of this, let me go find this. Um on page 15 of this handout, when I basically copy from the uh Kindle versions. You don't, I just have the the charts and the illustrations I couldn't couldn't copy. So that's uh that's an advertisement for you to buy the book, you know, or at least buy a Kindle, right? So if you want the full version, Dr. Bergman would probably love this, right? Um I was like doing advertising for him. So there's an account, kind of a legendary account that King Ptolemy in 283 to 246 BC brought scribes from Jerusalem to translate the Hebrew Bible into Greek. So it's and there's a let there's a kind of a letter here, a text here. And so this translation dates to probably about 250 BC. And so over time, many Jewish scriptures were were translated. And the book of Sirach also uh attests to this, that likely there were, so for example, um go find this passage here. Um anyway, I'm trying to find where that Cirach quote is. Page five, there we go. Thank you for your help there. So, yeah, page five. So we see that so in this second terrible period, this the book of Sirach, which is in the wisdom literature of the Old Testament, that for example, and Dr. Bergma or Ban Picture, I forget which one, highlights not only this work, but even the law itself, the prophecy, and the rest of the books differ not a little as originally expressed. So notice here that the book of Sirach provides clear evidence of an accepted body of Jewish scriptures consisting of three parts, as well as translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, a distinct reference to ancient Greek translation that later known as the Septuagint. Okay. So we see that there's various types of you know of scriptures running around, which there was agreement and some there was some disagreement. So when we look at how the canon is divided, of course, the Torah, which is the law, the first five books of the Bible. And just remember, anytime you hear the law, right, or the Torah, of course, that's why the Pharisees, that's what they were so enthused about, right? Was following the law, right? To live according with the Mosaic law, because they lived in a time in which, of course, the Romans were the tyranny in which they lived under. There was that, of course, they were pagan and lived in a world in which there was no Davidicing, and like how will there be faithful found in Israel? So they had a passion for the law. And then as a sidebar, when you read uh Romans and Galatians, and St. Paul is talking about works of the law. He's not talking because you know our Protestant brothers will say what he's talking about, you know, you can't earn your salvation by works, because St. Paul says that works are to no avail. No, no, no. Works of the law are to no avail. Works of the Torah. Why? Because Jesus has established a new covenant. So that's why I don't have to sacrifice animals in church for the forgiveness of sins. Okay, I'm really happy about that. Yeah, that's what I'm not, I don't even know if I'm the tribe of Levi or not, because we have different priests, the priesthood has changed from a tribe to those who are called to this ministry. So that's so that's why I'm really glad. I don't have to be a butcher, you know. Hey, we cut a manual you have. What kind of sin did you commit? Okay. All right. All right, so alright, let's let's get to work here, right? Big long line. Oh boy, can't imagine. Can't imagine what this Old Testament priest had to do. You know? Wow, that's a lot of work. Um so so our so either division of scripture of the Old Testament is of course we have the law, we have the prophets, we have the wisdom, we have the wisdom literature, and the historical books. Okay, so his so the you know, of course, the historical literature starts, we have you know Judges, we have 1 to 2 Samuel, 1 to 2 Kings, you know, we have 1 to 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, 1st to 2nd Maccabees. Okay, and then of course we have the prophets, for example, we have Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, right? Um, and we have because the minor prophets like Amos and Zechariah and so on, all right, and we have wisdom literature like the Psalms, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, and so on. So I didn't name all four, you know, all those books, but those are generally, that's the outline that we have come to, sort of grouping these scriptures into certain, you know, into these sort of you know genre categories. Okay. So where did we come? So it is so the Septuagint is the basis for the New Catholic Church Old Testament canon. So this is where, of course, um, and this is very similar to the, I'll talk about the New Testament in a bit. But so what so the church would have received from Jesus Himself, you know, what books were part of this canon. In fact, this was a very important point. Let me see if I can find this. Because what happens is that the church does not sort of say, well, these books are inspired because the church says they're inspired, they're inspired. No, the church has discerned that they've already been inspired and they're worthy of being read in the liturgy. So on page 12 in the second full paragraph, it says, Jesus taught the apostles by word and example which books were part of authoritative Jewish scripture, and they in turn passed down this tradition, along with the authority to bind and loose to their successors, the bishops of the church, who began to address the canonic questions explicitly second half of the fourth century, when circumstances were favorable to clarification of church doctrine. So, as we remember from Matthew's gospel, from Matthew chapter 16, Jesus gives Peter the keys of the kingdom. And I tell you, our Peter, upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of another world shall not prevail against it. I give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So this is a this is a similar to what a power or what rabbis would have in terms of binding and loosing their disciples, like determining the doctrines that they're going to follow. So this binding and loosing power has been given to Peter and to the whole church. Now, for the first 300 years of the church, there is a lot of stuff happening because remember that it wasn't until 313 AD after the Battle of Milvian Bridge, when Constantine sees the vision of in this sign who will be victorious, that Christianity became legal through the edict of Milan. So for the first 300 years, what's the church trying to do? Well, it's trying to survive. Right? Because you have various waves of martyrdom happening. The church is trying to is evangelizing and spreading, it's trying to survive, and now when the when the Roman Empire allows Christianity to be legal, if actually eventually it becomes like the official religion of the Roman Empire, that uh now the church has time to sort of sort out these questions in a more definitive way. So, for example, you know, we have the, and also also the and then the first issues they were dealing with were doctrinal issues. You know, the Council of Nicaea, which anniversary celebrated last year. You know, there's the first seven ecumenical councils of the church. So they're dealing with the issues, okay, the Trinity, the incarnation, uh, the motherhood of Mary, all these things are being worked out and defined in the early years of the church. So later on, they came to thought, well, what is the canon of scripture? What is the canon of scripture? So, and that began to be discerned by the church as to what was eligible to be read in the church. So, and that was there, so there was different councils which are which are listed in the in the so let me go find that passage in this book. Have it highlighted. So there were so the council of Rome in 382, Council of Hippo in 383, Carthage in 397 and 419. Also, we have a long quotation from St. Augustine. Now, St. Augustine lists 44 books, but two of those books are Baruch and Lamentations, which are sort of wrapped into Jeremiah. So that gives us the 46 books that we use today. And then later on at the Council of Florence, the Council of Trent, the canon is sort of declared for the universal church. And then we see in the couple of councils, there are quotations. No psalms composed by private individuals, nor any uncanonical books may be read in church, nor any canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. So you can't make up your own psalm. Don't can't do that. Don't try that. Don't do that at home. Okay? And then nothing is to be read in church under the besides besides the canonical scriptures, nothing is to be read in the church other than the divine scripture. So I know in the crazy times of the post-Vatican council world, sometimes people like reads things other than the scripture. Well, they should have read this, right? They should have read that. So basically we have from our Lord, right? He's teaching them what's able to be used from the Old Testament to be used as Scripture. And of course, the Septuagint was widely circular circulated. In fact, uh the historian uh Josephus and the philosopher Philo both you know really revere the Septuagint, you know, as the sort of you know canon of scripture. And then that became, of course, and then of course, from our Lord to the apostles, all right, handed out to the bishops that you know those these are the scriptures that could be eligible to be read in church. Everything in the Bible that we have is considered eligible to be read in the context of the sacred liturgy. Okay. Alright, so let's any questions on on that part so far. Old Testament, yeah. So what did the Jews use? We used 70 and they use something else. Yeah, I if I if I remember correctly, um if they they base it with the Pharisees, I know they have trying to remember what they have, but I know they may have at least 22 books, I think. I'd have to I'm not as familiar with what they currently use, like what the rabbis currently use. Um but there's certain books that they might, like Maccabees, they won't use, for example. Um there's other other books that they're they might not be using. Um definitely using the Torah, that's for sure. So I'm sorry if I you know if I said the words I don't know. There are priests who can't say those words because they're so smart. Anyway, there's two in the chancery I know of, too. So I'm waiting for them to say I don't know what it's gonna be used, you know. So I'm gonna have to check on that. Because in in in um so if we look uh, let's see. Do they have yeah, there's in in this book we have canonical lists of different of different books. So for example, there are actually 24, there's 24 Jewish books. I was I was too old. 39 Protestant, 46 Catholic. The Greek Orthodox actually have three more than us. So that's interesting. So the Jew Jew, our Jewish brethren have 24 books. Because one of the things that happened in the years following the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ and the spread of Christianity, there was a reaction against what we considered scripture. And so, you know, very very you know, at some point, like, okay, let's let's sort out what we think is real. Um so so okay, so now we've talked a little bit about the Old Testament, let's talk about the new. So, so of course, we see that our Lord was teaching the apostles, and from our Lord to the apostles, we could through the binding and loosing of the church, so we come to discern what is the inspired Old Testament Word of God, and of course, um the Septuagint as sort of the basis for that. So after the after Pentecost, there was no written New Testament books, right? There wasn't all of a sudden, okay, here's what here's the books, right? The apostles, of course, had the gift of the Holy Spirit. We know that, of course, we heard Matthew chapter 16, but if you read chapters 13 through 17 of John's gospel, that Jesus is promising the apostles the counsel of the Holy Spirit will keep you into remind you of everything he said, keep them in all truth. And we have, of course, Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, so that the body of the apostles united to Peter, that they are the custodians of the word of God that they received from Christ Himself. And they went out and spread out into the various regions of the world to preach the gospel. So, of course, one of the earliest writings that we probably have is 1 Corinthians, might have been written from what I recall, possibly in like the 40s. So if St. Paul is writing 1 Corinthians very early, let's say the 40s or 50s, and of course, we're saying that Jesus, let's say his passion, death, and resurrection happened around 30 AD, that you're only talking a matter of tens of years after the event of Jesus' life, uh, you know, of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection and Pentecost. So if you're talking only tens of years from a historical perspective, that is like super close to the events. It's not hundreds of years. It's not like, you know, I could, it's not like if I were to write a book on the American Revolution, and I'm, you know, I'm gonna go to, you know, we're now, you know, you know, hundreds of years away from the American Revolution. Right? If I were to write a book about it, we still have a lot of primary, we still have primary source documents. You can go to the National Archives, you can see the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the original Constitution. So, you know, that that would be still considered relatively close from a historical perspective. But we're talking about tens of years, really within the living memory of our Lord, right? The scriptures or the New Testament is being written down. Because if you look at 1 Corinthians, you have an account of the Last Supper. You also have an account of the resurrection as well, which is interesting because he records an appearance of our Lord to St. James. I don't know if it's James, which James it is, but he records an additional appearance that we don't have in the Gospels, which is interesting. He also records an appearance to 500 people, right? So a crowd of 500 people saw our Lord appear after his resurrection. So there's a so there's another appearance of our Lord not recorded in our Gospels, which is very interesting. So I always find that those passages fascinating from that perspective, is that St. Paul is recording some of the tradition, the living memory of the church, that we don't find in the four gospels. So the of course, the you know, we know that Matthew, Mark, and Luke have some similarity to one another. There's always some controversy of how the similarities occurred. Of course, there are differences. Mark based his gospel of the preaching of St. Peter. Luke went and kind of like compiled different sources. It's very possible that Mary herself was the source of chapters 1 and 2 of Luke's gospel, because there are details in there. Like when he says that Mary treasured these things in her heart twice. Where did that, how could that come from, none other than the Blessed Mother herself? Right? John, of course, would have written much later, probably around, it's estimated around 90 AD. So we have two of them now, Matthew, of course, having been a tax collector, means that he would have been literate. So it makes a lot of sense that Matthew could have wrote something or wrote a gospel because he was literate. Yes, he was at first not a very nice guy as a tax collector, but he would have had the ability to write things, to write and record these things down. And of course, you know, St. John is very young. He would have had time over his life to learn how to read and write, and eventually, you know, set down the book of Revelation and his gospel and the three and the three letters we have. So these documents, the of course, we have the four gospels, the acts of the apostles, we have the epistles of Saint Paul, Peter, we have John, St. Jude, right, uh, Saint James, and of course, we and then the book of Revelation, which is a whole other genre, right? It's a, you know, it's a kind of a prophetic kind of book, almost, you know, visionary of the, you know, you know, kind of talk about the end times, these sorts of things. So all these documents were discerned by the church, by the authority that the church has, to discern, again, what would be eligible to be read in church, what came from the apostolic tradition. There are other books that float around. Every once in a while, like we get this, for example, every once in a while the media likes to dig these things up and say, another discovery gospels. Like, yes, we knew about that. Like the Gospel of Thomas or some other uh some other writings that were that were written much later, probably a hundred or so years after Passion, death, and resurrection of Christ, written by some Gnostic sects, which would have been a heretical group of people looking that believed in secret knowledge, and there's, you know, kind of so kind of the church was able to filter through everything that was out there and say, this is authentic apostolic tradition inspired. This other stuff is fanciful, legendary, and you know, or not doctrinally sound and doesn't come from the apostolic tradition. So that's why these things are excluded from the gospel. Not because the church is mean, but because we know that this isn't truly what came from the apostles who were in direct contact with the risen Lord. Um so um so that's where the new it's a little bit easier the new testament. That's why they did gave you this article about the Old Testament because it's scholarly. Um, if you were in a biblical scripture class, you'd probably get this book, especially the Franciscan University of Steubenville. Of course, Brent Petrie and Dr. Burvin got to make money. So um they're very excellent scripture scholars. All their works I highly recommend because they've written some really fantastic things. So that's pretty much uh so that I think that covers what we're talking about. Any other questions on magisterium and the canon of the scripture? Anything that gets to mind? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

So is it accurate to say that the Old Testament is based on historical tradition and the New Testament was determined based on uh the words inspired by God through the apostles, etc.?

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Well, we're saying that the Old Testament's inspired as well, okay? So we don't want to say that Jesus would have taught the apostles what would be included in the Old Testament, like what's eligible for the Old Testament, and that was handed down to the bishops who then were establishing and then later on established the canon. So, because what could be read in church? So remember the liturgy, remember in Acts, the end of Acts chapter 2, we hear about the beginning of the breaking of the bread and the prayers, right? That breaking of the bread is a code word for they started celebrating Holy Mass. So immediately, right, the scriptures are being read in in mass from the from the start of Pentecost from Pentecost on. So for so that's so that's a constant thing that's happening over the 300-year period till we get to these other councils that are starting to determine, okay, this is the canon of scripture for the old the old testament, okay, and the new testament.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Okay, yeah. You mentioned that we were all in the world.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Well, you have to know the church is a messy thing, too, right? Doing with humanity, right? And you're also dealing with um, you know, I I think we all tend to think of the Bible as something as like a book that's been sort of like we all experience the Bible as a unified book, right? Well that might have been in the like I said, the experience before, right? Now eventually that became a thing, right? Um that the uh a codex we put the codex is what we think of as a regular book, right? So and you so these councils are regulating within their own areas or within their own diocese. Okay, what we need, let's make sure the priests aren't going off the rails, right? Don't include the because they're trying to say this is what is usually councils happen because somebody's misbehaving, right? Somebody's causing a problem. Like, for example, like Council of Nicaea, Arius was at it was saying things that weren't in line with the Catholic faith. So they had to have a council to combat it. So likely there's disciplinary issues that are occurring and that the church is discerning we need to make sure that that what's going on in our in our liturgy, that whatever's being read at mass is authentically from the see of Paul. I don't know specifically what's happening, but usually councils come because there's questions that are happening within that, within the region or in the universal church. Does that make sense? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

It's striking that there's so many going on.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

I mean Yeah, well they're not and yeah, that and then and they're in different places like Carthage and Rome are kind of far from each other. So you can imagine that, you know, and also you have to imagine communication is not instant either. And we tend to we tend to take for granted that we have instant communication. Like we can know what's happening in, you know, we can see we can know what the Holy Father said this morning, you know, by we just turn on a computer or go on a website. Oh, that's what the Holy Father said as homily this morning. Well, a lot of stuff is, you know, you think about snail mail, you know, and postal service is not, you know, not an expert thing. So think your word of mouth is going to travel or papers and things, posts is going to be a lot slow, you know up, yeah, a lot slower. It's like when when um when the when the excommunication happened in 1054, you know, in in the in Constantinople, well the the Pope who propagated that had already died, the word hadn't got to that guy yet. The cardinal who did that.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

He was like, oops. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

You know, here we go. Sorry, you know. So okay. All right. Any other curious? Hopefully this is clear as mud. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

You said there were uh more votes than the Orthodox canon. Uh would that have happened after 1054 because of that? Because we were right out of 100.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah, that might have happened. I'm not sure because that could have happened in the East is only um that could have been part of the Eastern Catholic Churches leading up to that point as well. Um the Council of Florence, we were trying to reconcile with the East on that issue. Um so I don't I don't exactly know how they got those extra books, but they would have uh probably would have been canonical and possibly in the Eastern churches even before the um uh before the split.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

You know, okay, yeah.

unknown 32:04

Why do you think the Luther or whoever it was like Judah?

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Well, he probably was looking at what the with the with the with the Jewish word, well, because he's trying to figure out, well, once you cast off the Catholic Church, what do you use in authority? What are the Jewish brothers and sisters using? Um one of the issues in the books of Maccabees is that there's a passage in it which talks about a sacrifice on yeah that was offered on behalf of the dead because these um these uh soldiers fighting on the side of the Maccabees had uh uh uh idols on them. And they actually sent to Jerusalem to have sacrifices offered in light of the resurrection. So for Martin Luther, that's a reference to purgatory, which doesn't fit his theology. Because the theology of Luther was once once you have faith in Christ, you are saved, and then and your Christ's righteousness is imputed to you, right? And so there's no so there's no such thing as purgation. That's a whole if you want to yeah, that's a whole thing. We can get into that. You have to have to look at the chart. Right. Uh let's see. Let's see if he includes it included Tony, yeah, because he doesn't include Cirach. Yeah, it's very interesting. I'd have to look, I'd have to look up what exactly Martin Luther did there. You know, because it's only five books short. So the Maccabees are definitely out. Um what else did he leave out here? Wisdom of Solomon and Cirach are left out. Okay. And then yeah, Tobit, uh, Judith and Esther. Yeah, other parts of wisdom literature have been left out. Okay. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see why if he based that off of what the the the uh the Jews had excluded from their can, that might have been part of it.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Um Catholic can.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Yeah, I don't I don't know what uh I'd have to ask our um I'd have to ask the Ukrainian Catholic priest what they with or the Ruthenians, like with the Easter if the Eastern churches include those three extra books. So um I don't know if the Eastern Catholic churches use those three books or not. I'd have to I'd have to if Father Vasarov is very local, I can always ask him. He's a Ruthenian Catholic priest, his church is right next to Fairfax Hospital. So I can ask him if they use those three extra books. But um, but the Greek Orthodox are using those three books right now. Okay, so let's wrap up here and then and then if you want to have anything else you can see. Okay. Name of the Father and the Son of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Give you thanks mighty God for the affections, resolutions, praisings. Giving you his time meeting, we ask your help to put them into effect. Remember, Mother, St. Joseph, our grant angels undersea for us. Amen. In the name of the Father, and of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.