WEBVTT 00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:01.199 Well, good morning all. 00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:08.480 And we're now getting into I think some of Paul's more controversial works, particularly here with one Timothy. 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:14.000 And I think it's great uh to talk about that, but also about some of the things that are life-giving for you. 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:18.800 So um what I love to do, uh and it it's hard, but and so please play along. 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:20.559 If you want to pass, please pass. 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:31.679 But I but I want to see if we could start by naming either an issue that was inspirational or offensive for us in 1 Timothy, and we can just name it. 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:38.719 It can be really short, it doesn't have to be an exposition, and then let's invite someone else to share, like we've been doing. 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:43.359 If you don't want to share, then just pass, but then invite somebody else uh to share. 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:44.880 Does that seem okay? 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:49.359 So uh Larry, I want to invite you first. 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:56.079 Was there anything that stood out to you um either inspirationally or deflating in one Timothy? 00:00:57.439 --> 00:01:03.439 Um I'm gonna go ahead and pass and listen to other people. 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:04.239 Okay. 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:10.480 Uh sorry, I I uh I'm very interested to hear what other people have to say about about this book. 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:12.079 This is a very challenging book for me. 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:14.560 Well, you get to pick who you pass to. 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:17.280 Oh, uh let's go with Meg. 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:20.400 Okay, good morning, Larry. 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:29.760 Um, well, uh there's a lot in this book, but the first thing I think we need to know is that Paul did not write this. 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:44.799 This was written in the latter half of the second first century, and uh the apostles had died, and so the church was trying to re-establish itself or so that it could continue. 00:01:45.040 --> 00:02:08.080 And so what we have here is someone who's fighting in Paul's name, um, because he wants, you know, he embraces what Paul teaches, although this man who writes this is very different because this whole book is not complimentary of women, it is telling women to get in touch and live like the pagan women did. 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:14.639 Uh so it's what to conclude what I'm saying, this is a prescriptive text. 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:25.680 It is not just this descriptive tells you how a situation goes, but it's telling people what to do. 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:28.960 Now let's see, let's go to the darling. 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:33.360 Sorry. 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:38.560 Oh, here yeah. 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:44.159 I got you, darling. 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:45.759 Well, let's see. 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:49.199 Okay, am I on now? 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:49.919 Yes. 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:50.800 Okay. 00:02:51.280 --> 00:03:12.879 As you probably uh would have predicted this for me, this is a difficult uh book, uh, especially the parts that talk about uh when we should not teach and um um so so that's pretty challenging for me. 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:29.680 Um I was encouraged that the commentary um in our workbook indicated that it doesn't mean don't teach, but that's not what I've been told uh most of my church life. 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.960 Oh, okay, and so I guess I will go to Janet. 00:03:42.479 --> 00:04:00.159 Um I love this book, and that's what's what I prayed for, and I felt like this was an answer to prayer for me this week because I'm craving some real strong spiritual guidance from as the book says, uh one who has been there. 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:06.080 Um I I tend to need to have someone tell me do this, don't do that. 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:14.000 Uh so I really enjoyed the readings this week, but the verse that really jumped out at me the most is uh four nine. 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:19.839 The living God is the savior of all people, especially of those who believe. 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:21.839 So that was an encouragement. 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.319 And you get to invite our next sharer. 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.720 Hang on, Graziella, you're still there. 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:50.959 You go. 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:53.279 You just got unmuted. 00:04:54.240 --> 00:05:00.399 Oh I played my piano for three hours yesterday. 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:06.639 So I got lost in the piano, and frankly, I uh talked a little bit to Tim about what he read. 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:11.199 He he very very diligently does his reading. 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:14.879 So I'm gonna turn to him because I just played the piano. 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:17.439 I really had a lot of fun though, you guys. 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.480 And I'm a black player, you might have enjoyed it. 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:22.720 I played a lot of Beatle stuff. 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:44.959 Well, I was there are there are a couple things that um I was impressed by the way that he was trying to encourage to be a leader, uh, but I was also a little distressed by the way he handled women. 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:57.759 So I guess those were the two things that I thought there were there were there were some very good parts about this letter, some very parts that were difficult to understand or to comprehend. 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:02.399 And also his focus on prayer, I think I thought was was very good. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:05.439 Thank you. 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:14.399 Oh um uh pass off to Tim. 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:17.120 Hey there. 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:20.319 Can you hear me okay? 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:21.199 Yes. 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:22.879 Okay. 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:34.079 Um I I I the interesting conversations I've had in this book in the past have been with friends of mine who are in a different faith tradition. 00:06:34.240 --> 00:07:02.079 Um and and uh you know the uh the structure that they have, you know, not a so much of a hierarchical um church structure, but uh, you know, so the stuff about the overseer or priests and all the descriptions for that and how they interpret that, it's it's a really different approach to what we're used to in the Episcopal Church. 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:06.480 Um and you know, it's not a bad approach, it's just very different. 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:20.560 Um and the uh you know I've gotten into discussions with issues with the how they treat women, and you know, they in practice it doesn't work out quite as badly as it sounds like on paper. 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:30.079 Um but you know, very clearly try to delineate and kind of follow the the the guidelines that are provided. 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:39.279 I it's just um that's kind of what's or a lot of where I focused with this book over the past year or two anyway. 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:47.519 And Tim, who would you like to invite to share? 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:49.920 Oh, I have no idea. 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:54.240 Um let's see. 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.600 Let's see what my choices are. 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.959 I see Bonnie, Ellen, Richard, and Todd. 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.839 I want to go with Bonnie. 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:08.399 Hi, everybody. 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:17.920 Um, I was I have been very interested to see what Mike's take on um two things. 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:26.720 Um his view of women, but who wrote it, whether it in fact was Paul or whether it was someone else. 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:35.519 And um I'll be interested in hearing uh your view on women as they're portrayed in this book. 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:42.799 I have a fundamentalist friend who believes every single word of this book as it is written. 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:46.080 Um needless to say, I disagree. 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:49.679 Oh uh Ellen. 00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:00.879 Well, the women part um has intrigued me also in a probably sort of a negative way. 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:18.000 But the other part that I was sort of thinking about in terms of um today is about words and hassling over words and meanings of words in this particular social climate. 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:22.000 Thank you. 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:24.080 Can I nominate Gina? 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.519 Oh Gina already shared. 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:29.759 Um we've got Richard or Todd? 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:32.240 How about Todd? 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:41.039 Leave me out for now for the whole time. 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:42.799 I'm just an observer today. 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:46.799 So I think we just have Richard left. 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:56.559 We gotta pass. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:57.279 Okay. 00:09:57.440 --> 00:09:57.679 Okay. 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:00.720 Well, I I really appreciate it. 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:06.720 It sounds like we've got a lot of common interest here, and uh maybe it's okay to just to make a few remarks. 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:23.679 And by the way, if I am like overdoing this, you just say, listen, you're overdoing it, and how about we start um inviting some more people to share instead of just you know, you over sharing, which I'm I'm you know I'm very prone to do. 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:26.720 Um if we're okay with that, then I'll go ahead. 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:37.360 Um so the first question is about authorship, and uh I will tell you there's a little bit of divide on one Timothy in this in the scholar uh community. 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:43.919 Um there are some people who lobby, this is Paul's work, at a different maybe time in his life. 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:48.399 Um diction and syntax, not as different here as in 2 Timothy. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:53.039 I don't know anybody that that lobbies for 2 Timothy to be a Pauline epistle. 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:54.480 I don't know anybody for that. 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:59.840 Um but there are some people who go for this one, and I think there's a really important thing. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:13.840 Authorship can be helpful when we're thinking about the context, like the situation in life, but authorship can also be a red herring because sometimes we might say, well, look, if Paul didn't write it, it's not authoritative. 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:18.159 And of course, that's completely wrong because we've decided this book is part of the Bible. 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:26.480 I mean, I will tell you with almost a hundred percent confidence that neither Matthew nor Mark nor Luke nor John wrote those Gospels. 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:32.159 Um and nobody undermines the Gospels by saying those people didn't write them. 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:34.159 The truth is, is what we have. 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:43.120 And we've degreed, we've we've agreed that these books are the basis for how we understand salvation, and we have to do that in a couple of ways. 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.360 We could take them literally, although I think that is not the episcopal way. 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:54.799 Uh what we could do is say, hey, these books are meant to start holy conversations and to tease out what salvation might mean. 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:57.200 So I hope that's a helpful beginning. 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.919 I'm not trying to sidestep the authorship issue. 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:05.440 The truth is, people much more erudite than myself have thrown their hat in separate circles. 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:14.399 But what I want to warn us of is if we is if we try to undermine the book by undermining the author, it's kind of a fool's errand. 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:16.720 I I hope that's okay to say. 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:23.440 What I think is most helpful here is um to combine a couple of things that you've said. 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:32.399 Remember that a bit that an overseer, that's the word episcopas, from which we get the word bishop, is not a diocesan bishop. 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:36.159 This is somebody who's on top of a house, church, or two. 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:43.519 So you need to imagine a bishop has authority over 20 people, not 200,000. 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:49.039 And notice what uh the overseer Paul says. 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.840 I do not permit a woman to teach. 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:56.399 He doesn't say God doesn't permit a woman to teach, he says he doesn't. 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:59.360 And actually, I think this is really, really interesting. 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:11.919 Uh one of the things I appreciate about the Episcopal Church as well as the congregational church I grew up in is that yes, we have the prayer book and we have some common church polity, but every congregation is really different. 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:13.200 If you were to go to St. 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.320 Christopher's, I guarantee you we're using the same prayer book. 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.639 The worship experience is completely different. 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.879 And I don't just mean the preaching, I mean the music, the vibe, and it's not wrong. 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:26.399 It's different. 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:33.919 There are congregations, many of us know, that never ever could have gone open and inclusive. 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:36.320 Uh it's been a little bit of a stretch at St. 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:37.279 Thomas, even. 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:42.720 There's other churches where that's like their flag, that's their cause, and everybody's behind it. 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:55.120 Um, I kind of wish we had a common ethic, but in some ways I think there's beauty in the fact that, hey, what we're doing is the ministry of the people, and uh where we are matters. 00:13:55.600 --> 00:14:08.159 So uh, you know, again, there's ways that we could try to force equality, and in so forcing legislation, we might actually polarize hearts in the opposite way. 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:10.000 I don't know if that makes sense. 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:20.080 We we have the Civil Rights Act, but let's be honest, we don't have the intent of that law being borne out uh throughout our own country. 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:30.000 So there's always, I think, this tension between what do we force to happen and how do we actually change hearts to get where we want to go. 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:39.600 So again, if Paul doesn't permit women, notice, he uses the language, I don't, but he never says God doesn't. 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.000 I think that's really, really important. 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:44.000 This is an I statement. 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:49.039 And I can tell you, there are churches right now who will not call a woman rector. 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:55.759 And while I think that's sad, if it were forced upon them, it would be a mutual disaster. 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.240 I don't know if that makes sense. 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:07.440 So I think we're living a little bit in the in-between, and also in in the shrewdness of how do we meet people where they are? 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:15.039 Uh again, I don't think I think if we read this as a universal letter, like no church should have this, that's a mistake. 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:20.559 But to the church that Paul's addressing, Paul doesn't permit. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.399 I I don't know if that's a helpful perspective or not. 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:36.960 Well, the thing that uh I find difficult with this is uh that if this was really Paul's teaching, you know, he relied on women deacons. 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:37.440 Yes. 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:42.720 So why would he have this attitude toward women at this point in time? 00:15:43.039 --> 00:16:10.000 But one thing we do know, we can know about these people is that there were women in the church who were busybodies, and that uh, you know, and they got they they were those who when they got into their tea circles or whatever, they talked about the false doctrines that were prevalent at that time, and they probably even challenged uh some of the church leaders. 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:15.440 So and they a lot of some of these were probably wealthy women too. 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:34.799 So you know, so there was a problem in the church that did need to be addressed, but what has happened over the millennia is that it has been refined to uh contemporary thinking uh through the ages. 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:57.120 Yeah, and also there were women ascetics, and uh one of the pro gifts of women back in those days was prophecy, and there was seems to be a little bit of resentment in this book about women who do that, particularly the older women, and also you know, there's confusion about who the widows are. 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:11.279 Uh the widows uh included everybody at first, the old widows, and now this writer of this uh letter is saying, okay, only the destitute should be taken care of, and so forth. 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:27.839 So to me, there's um a bit of confusion here about uh I have difficult I have difficulty accepting that it's Paul because it doesn't seem to be Paul to me because of the women that he had in ministry with him. 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:37.200 And also, this letter was written in the letter near the end of the first century and the beginning of the second, and no those guys aren't living now anyway. 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:38.799 Yeah, at that time. 00:17:39.200 --> 00:18:03.359 I really appreciate that perspective, and I think what's helpful again, that I think you said um very well is this is a specific letter to a specific church or two, and um sometimes uh what's good for for one is not in fact good for the whole flock, and so to our detriment, we universalize messages that are very contextual. 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:22.960 And I think that's really, really important to hear, and in that sense, I could imagine Paul riding to a group, a very small group, in which there was abuse of power, whether by women or men, that they needed to take a time out for the present on that until it could get fixed. 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.440 So, and I think there's another way that we can hear it. 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:31.839 Is this for all time in these places, or is this a timeout so that things can get reset? 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:45.279 And and of course, unfortunately, what's happened is again, if we take a contextual letter and universalize it, we're actually disrespecting the author, the audience, the intention, and the community. 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:49.279 Uh so this I think is uh hopefully a really helpful approach. 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.519 You know, and there's another thing too. 00:18:51.680 --> 00:19:03.279 This is a man who uh wants to confine women to childbearing and being being at home and taking and taking care of the men. 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:17.359 And uh so that's sort of you know, God Jesus himself had female disciples, and Mary Magdalene is the chief of the apostles since the resurrection. 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:32.160 So this is contrary to uh Jesus' teaching, even to confine women to the role of just marrying children, which was an honorable thing back in those ages, and it still is today. 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:45.599 But uh so I think that uh we really um uh need to read this with more of a discerning eye than just taking it at face value. 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:47.519 Yeah, I I really appreciate that. 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:55.839 And I and again, I think part of this is can we imagine circumstances in which these would be really important directives for a small group of people? 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:14.480 And and then that would give us a we also have to understand that uh the society in which this was written and to those particular group of people, you know, we don't know we don't know what the structure of that church was. 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:19.680 Um we don't know whether the women were able to read or not. 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:31.839 Uh you know, and so we don't we don't really know anything about who those people were other than Paul's left. 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.759 So then we take it, okay, what does it mean to us now? 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:43.119 In other words, yes, what Tim is saying is very true, as far as I'm concerned. 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:51.119 And uh so the thing is this, okay, so what is the correct understanding for contemporary paper like us? 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:57.039 Yeah, I think that's a really I think this is where it's really helpful to think about this as a pastoral letter. 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:01.279 And sometimes we think, oh, pastors can't give blank advice. 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:11.119 But I think what's important is the goal of leadership and the goal of churches is to move us from where we are several steps down the road. 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:17.759 And to be honest, um there might be intermediate steps that Church A needs that Church B doesn't need. 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:23.920 And there might be even more steps that church C needs that neither A nor B needed. 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:30.400 And we can say, well, no, everybody should just make that jump, but that's not how education or development works. 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:40.240 So I think part of what this letter is revealing is um there may be a time and a place for all kinds of instruction, and that's where it's helpful to say, hey, at St. 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:41.279 Thomas or at St. 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:49.200 Switherens or wherever we find ourselves, what's the next step in us being uh the beloved community? 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:56.240 And it may not look the same for now, even though we're hoping to end up in the same place. 00:21:58.160 --> 00:21:59.759 Uh also the suspension. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.640 Written to a young pastor who's just getting started. 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:05.519 Yeah. 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:13.599 Yeah, and I can tell you, because you said that, I mean, there's things I would have done in ministry ten years ago that I wouldn't do now. 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:18.559 And part of it was I just couldn't hold on to as much bandwidth as I can now. 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.720 And I'm not even sure that's wide now, but maybe in ten years it'll be even wider. 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:24.880 I mean, I think that's part of the deal. 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:30.240 And then I think the other thing that becomes really, really important is for us to think about. 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:40.000 Um, we have these structures, like Tim said, of deacons who are meant to be servants and overseers, and then, of course, the biggest group of churches, the laity. 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:44.240 So, how do we function together in ministry? 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.079 Uh, and I think that becomes really, really important for us to consider. 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.319 Um, if I can, let me throw a couple of issues out because I just got the 10-minute warning. 00:22:52.480 --> 00:23:05.680 There's one that you probably didn't pay attention to, or maybe didn't, and that is that Paul throws out a laundry list of vices, and depending on your translation, one of those vices is called sodomites. 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:16.319 Um I just want to show you the Greek word there is arsenokatoi, and it is actually better translated the soft ones. 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:26.640 This is one of those scriptures that gets sort of levied against um mutual homosexual relationships in modernity. 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:42.640 And the word arsenokatoi doesn't refer to male prostitutes, it probably refers to elder men taking young men as their sort of mentees, and there was um physicality involved in that uh as part of their mentorship. 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:56.799 They would take younger boys and educate them, but also have sort of um, I mean, sodomy is such a tough word, but had would have um physical relationships with their mentees, and Paul is saying no to that. 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:05.599 And um so I didn't think this has anything to do with modern homosexuality because that relationship isn't among two equals. 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:09.440 It's between somebody who has power and somebody who doesn't. 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:18.799 So we can say Paul's absolutely right, there shouldn't, we should not solemnize relationships of inequitable power. 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.599 That's why we don't believe in things like incest. 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:29.599 That's why we don't believe in, you know, adult uh adults and children, because the power is not equal. 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:32.240 And and that's what's happening here as well. 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:38.720 Teachers and students, while a student is under the tutelage of a teacher, absolutely inappropriate. 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:40.880 The power's not the same. 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.279 That's sort of like statutory rape. 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:46.640 That's why Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky is so wrong. 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:48.160 They're not equals. 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:53.440 Even if she consented, she didn't have the same power in the relationship he had. 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:55.440 I I hope that makes sense. 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.960 Yeah, it does. 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:16.720 Gina turned on to something really great for me that I highlighted and starred over and over again that we could easily miss, I think, in the middle of some of these things that prick us and bother us, which is that Christ is the savior of all, especially those who believe. 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.519 Isn't that an interesting phrase? 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:25.759 So, whether you believe or not, Christ is your savior, and that's gonna work out. 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.000 But if you believe, you get to enjoy it now. 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:36.799 I mean, really, like what a wonderful vision of how all of this works that is all too often lost. 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:49.839 On the subject of enjoying it now, I can't find it right now, but there's the other verse where he tells or encourages him if they didn't take home for eternal life now. 00:25:50.799 --> 00:26:06.240 Yeah, and and this I think is what's great is we often get bogged down again in some of the things that prick us, but but here is a radical vision about love winning, about people who don't even follow this guy's instructions making it. 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:14.480 But the question is not only how and when do we make it, but how and when do we decide to enjoy it, lean into it, and live into it. 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:18.319 And I think that's really the invitation we get to hear over and over again. 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:23.279 I didn't get that as a young person, but it's right here in the text. 00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:34.559 Um, you know, this book does something really great that you may not like, but it does something we're still trying to deal with today. 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.720 Which widows are real widows and which ones are fake widows? 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:40.960 And really the question is, right? 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:42.720 Who deserves welfare? 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:48.240 How do you prove somebody is really in need and not being lazy? 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:54.160 Now, if you don't struggle with that, I I I mean I can't even identify with you because I struggle with that. 00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:59.839 You know, what do I do when somebody has a sign on the road that says hungry, please help? 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:03.119 And I've seen three cars pass by them. 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.720 Do they really need that? 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:06.559 I mean, this is that's what the book is doing. 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:08.079 This is a really great question. 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:15.920 And you may not like what Paul lays down, because essentially what he says is if you're a young widow, get married again. 00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:19.119 And if you're an older widow, don't. 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:20.319 Uh, because you can't. 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:22.960 But and just remember the times are really, really different. 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:33.440 Women were objects of patronage, which means either their father or their husband or their adult son had to pay for and maintain them. 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:39.359 And Paul is really just sort of saying, given that system, if you're young enough, get a new patron. 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:44.000 If you can't find a new patron, truly, then the church should take care of you. 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:45.359 It's really awful, right? 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:47.759 I mean, where women have to look for male patrons. 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:48.480 It's awful. 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.200 But it was the times in which they they lived. 00:27:51.359 --> 00:28:01.119 And in some ways, I think this is Paul sort of saying, look, if you're capable of doing any kind of meaningful work for wages, you should do that. 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.960 If you can't, then the body should take care of you. 00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:07.599 And and we still struggle with that. 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:11.359 What is meaningful work? 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:13.359 I mean, we're struggling with that right now. 00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:17.039 We have people on furlough getting paid who aren't doing work. 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:21.519 Now we don't want them just to be busybodies because the letter says, don't be a busybody. 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:25.680 But but this, I mean, again, this is where this letter is very old and very contemporary. 00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:34.559 And I'm suspicious these are the reasons the letter made it in, because these are some great conversation starters, even if you don't like his conclusions. 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:37.519 Gina, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.839 Oh, I was interrupting you, I'm sorry. 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.799 I think that's a perfect example of what I appreciate about this letter. 00:28:45.440 --> 00:29:12.480 Maybe the criteria that he uses we wouldn't agree with today are not appropriate for every particular thing. 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:28.079 But that doesn't mean that there's not another one specifically for your need. 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:41.359 Yeah, and I maybe it's helpful to hear that Brene Brown says over and over again, the most compassionate people in all the research she does are the ones who set the firmest boundaries. 00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:55.920 Because there's a strong relationship between not setting boundaries and resentment versus the discomfort in setting a boundary and not being violated because you refuse to allow it to be crossed. 00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:03.279 And actually, that boundary is what allows you to be compassionate and not feel like you're being taken advantage of. 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:10.240 That's really in some ways counterintuitive, uh, but it bears out in her research and it seems really right. 00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:11.599 It seems really right. 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:14.799 This is what help looks like from me. 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:16.079 This is what it looks like. 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:19.359 This is what I'm willing to do instead of blank checks. 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:24.240 I don't know if you've written blank checks before and had people cash them over and over and over and over again. 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:28.799 I resent those people greatly, even though I continue to sign those checks. 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:42.480 Maybe it's helpful to hear that when Paul talks about the reading of Scripture publicly, he's talking about the Hebrew Bible only. 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:43.759 This is really important. 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:45.680 There's no New Testament yet. 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:51.599 There might be some letters being circulated, but those would not have been considered scripture. 00:30:51.839 --> 00:31:00.160 In fact, the Jewish canon isn't really formalized until around the year 84, just to give you an idea. 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.880 84 of our common era. 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:04.079 That's not BC. 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:10.240 Remember that they were a big Jewish group that only read Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.000 Those are called the Sadducees. 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.279 They don't totally go away when the temple's destroyed. 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.680 When there's no new temple, they start to fade out over time. 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:28.160 But ultimately it's the Pharisees that went out, and they're the ones that include Joshua Judges, Ruth, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes. 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:34.000 So scripture is still new as something that's happening here. 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:39.440 Do not think Paul is talking about the rest of the New Testament or that the author of 1 Timothy is. 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:39.759 No. 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:43.119 Those might have been read like we read the Apocrypha. 00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:47.119 We don't read the Apocrypha as Scripture, we read it as an appendix. 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:55.200 If you're Catholic, you read the Apocrypha as Scripture because that was what the Council of Trent did. 00:31:55.359 --> 00:32:01.119 It said that the Pope had more authority than Scripture, and he proved it by making the Apocrypha scripture. 00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:04.480 That's why it's in the Catholic Bible, not in the Protestant Bible. 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:06.880 We have it in our appendix. 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:08.480 I don't know if that makes sense. 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:14.799 We read it publicly on Sundays, but we don't consider it as authoritative as the other books in the canon. 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:17.599 We've got like 20 seconds left. 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:19.920 I just want to thank you for joining us today. 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:28.240 Next week we're going to do 2 Timothy, and um I I guess that's all I can say before we cut out. 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:31.519 Thank you, and God bless you all on Holy Wednesday. 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:32.880 Thank you very much. 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:34.720 Thank you, Mike.