SPEAKER_00: All your creatures, Lord, will praise you, and all your people will give you thanks.
SPEAKER_00: They will speak of the glory of your royal power and tell of your might, so that everyone will know your mighty deeds and the glorious majesty of your kingdom, your rule is eternal.
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
unknown: Amen.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, um, welcome.
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about Philemon and Colossians.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering if there were um ways in which these scriptures sort of touched your heart first, if there were issues that um, you know, were of particular interest to you, or the way in which Paul or one of Paul's disciples, uh, as it were, might have dealt with these scriptures, or ways in which uh your reading called you, uh you know, sort of pricked your heart uh this week.
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so Paul's giving us like a new code of ethics uh that that is not necessarily meant to be an obligation, but an invitation into living bigger lives.
SPEAKER_01: Bringing them together.
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks, Sandra.
SPEAKER_00: And and and if it's okay, um maybe we can talk about um Philemon first, uh, if that's okay.
SPEAKER_00: And um and just notice a few issues, and and I think one of the key um experiences I want to bring to the table is that when I was in seminary, uh my seminary in Atlanta had a uh a black church studies program.
SPEAKER_00: So it was in general uh black men and women in the black church studies program who were going to serve in black churches.
SPEAKER_00: There were a few uh white colleagues who got a certificate in black church studies, but one of the uh opportunities that availed for us as students was that we could either take preaching or we could take black preaching, uh, and these were requisites to get our MDIF.
SPEAKER_00: So I took black preaching.
SPEAKER_00: I didn't take white preaching, we didn't call it that, we just call it preaching.
SPEAKER_00: And um, sure enough, uh, you know, we studied preaching in the in the black tradition, in the black church, uh, ways in which sermons are delivered, and then we got randomly assigned books we're supposed to talk about.
SPEAKER_00: And and I lucked out because I was one of um three white people in the class, and I got Philemon to preach on, which is of course the book in which Paul deals with slavery.
SPEAKER_00: And um, I I have to tell you, it was a little bit of a tough assignment for me because how do I, as a white person, get up and preach to a room of black colleagues about slavery?
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, I didn't choose to address slavery head-on.
SPEAKER_00: I chose to talk about reconciliation, and man, they took me to task for it.
SPEAKER_00: They said, How could you not talk about slavery?
SPEAKER_00: And um, I I think what's interesting about this letter that I've come to reflect on in my connection is it it represents Paul talking about something really difficult and not being definitive uh on like a social position, but using a whole lot of relational leverage to kind of be passive-aggressive.
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00: We have to remember that these letters were not studied in private, they were read out loud in house churches.
SPEAKER_00: So Paul is essentially um calling uh Philemon to the carpet about Anesimus, and he's doing it publicly, and he's saying things like, you know, I could command you to do this, you owe me your whole soul, but I don't need to do that because you're gonna do what I want you to do, you know.
SPEAKER_00: Um, hey, look, you lost Anesimus a slave, and you're getting him back as a brother.
SPEAKER_00: Hint, hint, he's not your slave anymore.
SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean it's a sort of really interesting thing in which Paul does not condemn the institution of slavery outright, but he does say, hey, you sure as heck had better receive this guy Anesimus back as your brother now.
SPEAKER_00: Um, which is this interesting thing.
SPEAKER_00: And and I'll tell you, um in some ways, I do think Philemon is about Paul kind of having an intervention here uh that's about reconciliation, not about the institution of slavery.
SPEAKER_00: And uh that did disappoint my colleagues, but I think it's right.
SPEAKER_00: I I think Paul is not speaking to an institution, he's speaking to a single person in a relationship and saying, listen, this person uh is your brother in the Lord, and you need to treat this person as such, and you're gonna need to pay him, you're gonna need to be his patron, but you're not gonna own him anymore.
SPEAKER_00: Um and and that's you know, that's an interesting way Paul goes about doing this, you know, and I think it reminds us like, how are we supposed to talk about social justice issues?
SPEAKER_00: We can call them just black and white, and hey, if you don't do the right thing, like you're sinning, but to be honest, I don't know that life has always lived that way.
SPEAKER_00: So I think Paul is giving a relational perspective saying, here's the right thing as I perceive it, and you can do it, and you can do it for me, uh, and that'll be good enough.
unknown: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: That kind of adds to my idea of his skill as at what he does.
SPEAKER_00: This is the way my Yeah, this is the way my mother would deal with things.
SPEAKER_00: It's it's very bombastic and passive aggressive, and in some ways, um it can be passive aggressive because Paul has a relationship with the person.
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: And uh I think it reminds us that when we deal with things like social change and ethics and value, of course, that always works the best when we have relationships, and this isn't Paul making a cold call to somebody through a letter.
SPEAKER_00: This is not him saying, like, hey, I really think recycling needs to be a need for all you non-recyclers.
SPEAKER_00: This is somebody talking to somebody who they know and have spent time with and saying, Look, there's lots of reasons to recycle.
SPEAKER_00: Some of them uh you may not even consider valuable, but um do it for the sake of our relationship.
SPEAKER_02: Now, was philosophical a woman?
SPEAKER_00: Was sp was Philemon a what?
SPEAKER_00: Sorry?
unknown: Was philoman a woman?
SPEAKER_00: Uh probably not.
SPEAKER_00: Probably not, because that's a masculine ending in Greek, not a feminine ending.
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: Clearly, Philemon is uh in charge of a of uh the patron of a home community, like a home church.
SPEAKER_00: So this is somebody with enough resources and enough living space to host a church gathering.
SPEAKER_00: Remember, there's no public buildings that are churches at this time, so this is the owner of the of the biggest building in the community that's hosting this home church of ten people, maybe.
SPEAKER_02: The way it's written is it doesn't seem like it's written to be read in the community.
SPEAKER_02: It seems more like a private letter.
SPEAKER_00: It seems that way, and remember that's that um that's in general how we tend to read these letters, but that's not how they were handled.
SPEAKER_00: They were read out loud.
SPEAKER_00: And again, what's interesting to think about is it's one thing to have this as a private letter, but imagine this is being read out loud.
SPEAKER_00: It sort of obligates Philemon to do, you know, there's a lot of embarrassment on the line here for obeying essentially private instructions that are being read out loud.
SPEAKER_00: And I think Paul's banking on that.
SPEAKER_00: I think you'd have to do that really, really carefully.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, imagine your priest getting up to give the sermon and saying in the sermon something like, Well, you know, we're all gathered here on Sunday morning, and Sandra, I just really want you to consider that what you're doing is not right, and you should make these changes, and don't just do it, you know, because it's the right thing.
SPEAKER_00: Do it because you owe me your priest, your soul, and because all the people in the church can hear this.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's what he's doing.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: I I don't I would caution us against doing that in some ways, but um this is essentially a small group.
SPEAKER_00: And and really, Paul is putting Philemon on the stage in front of people who know him and are going to hear Paul's instructions and authorities and measure up what Philemon does against them.
SPEAKER_00: Um I I I think what's interesting is sometimes we think there's a right way and a wrong way to address conflict, and I think there are probably are better and worse ways, but it is good to hear, and this helps me that Paul is not above being passive aggressive.
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm not always above it either.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that as a general strategy, it's the best way to behave.
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think it can create some problems, and in some ways that helps us understand this guy's humanity and this guy working really with bona fide relationships.
SPEAKER_00: Um, because I think the the thing is, whether it's your politics or your theology or your economics, we're not all purely rational beings.
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the times we make choices we think are rational that came out of a relationship nexus that we didn't even recognize.
SPEAKER_00: And and in some ways I think this is very hopeful that Paul does this, even though I hope you don't hear me do something like this on a Sunday morning.
SPEAKER_02: What kind of how much did you receive from the audience when you deliver your sermon?
SPEAKER_00: Well, we don't know.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the interesting thing.
SPEAKER_02: No, I mean when you gave the sermon to the to thank you.
SPEAKER_00: What what I heard was hey, you didn't address the social justice issue of the institution of slavery here.
SPEAKER_00: And I did not.
SPEAKER_00: I I read this uh as as a as an appeal for reconciliation rather than um something about the institution.
SPEAKER_00: And and I get that.
SPEAKER_00: And I think the thing is um, you know, we have many opportunities to read about and inwardly digest this book, and um, you know, I would say that if we gave a sermon on this book five times, probably two or three of them should enter, you know, address social structures, but I I still stand firm that that's not the only way to read this.
SPEAKER_00: Um I I think the question is, you know, and in the context I gave, which again, this letter is contextual, like it's really important to consider what's our context and and what can we um how do we exert authority in a community and how do we address um social wrongs when we're not all of the same opinion?
SPEAKER_00: And I if anything, you know, um we had a conversation about that.
SPEAKER_03: Well of life.
SPEAKER_02: Um people who were, uh, if they were on their own and they weren't they probably wouldn't be alive.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think that's really helpful, is that this book is really about a patronage system, not about the African slave trade.
SPEAKER_00: But I do know that like in a black preaching class, and this is part of the context, this book uh easily was used by slaveholders against their slaves because Paul's not forbidding the institution of slavery on his time or in future generations.
SPEAKER_00: He's talking about one individual who um has proven himself worthy and therefore should be treated as a brother.
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think we could do some really dangerous work with this, Tim, and we could say, hey, well, Onesimus earned his right to be a brother because he did something helpful for Paul.
SPEAKER_00: So when you earn your freedom, you can have it.
SPEAKER_00: But people not like Onesimus who didn't make meaningful contributions, they just needed to be slaves.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, this I think this book has a whole lot of opportunity given that our social context has completely changed for us to do a lot of uh to miscarry this in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_01: I was fortunate to be in a house church uh when I first moved to Galveston for a couple of years, but that wasn't my only church.
SPEAKER_01: Later I realized it was a house church.
SPEAKER_01: This is kind of interesting to me.
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking back at the Yes, I can hear you.
SPEAKER_01: Can you hear you now?
SPEAKER_00: Yes, just fine.
SPEAKER_00: Okay Yeah, Sandra, I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00: And I think I think this is an interesting thing, is sometimes we even normalize the church experience, and and even like in these times right now, uh, there is a huge difference between what the National Cathedral's doing and what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think there should be, you know, a giant church has really, in some ways, different relations giant churches like mega churches are already navigating how do you stay connected in a megachurch environment because when there's 5,000 people in the room, there's really no connection there.
SPEAKER_00: So you have to have small groups and you have to have small service opportunities and studies, or you don't get any connections.
SPEAKER_00: So that looks really different from a church with 200 people or a church with 20 people.
SPEAKER_00: And again, I think that's part of the deal.
SPEAKER_00: Like if I were in a church with 5,000 people, um, I think I don't know that you make a relational embarrassment spotlight for one person in the middle of 5,000.
SPEAKER_00: But when there's 10 of you, that's a small group.
SPEAKER_00: And I think you can sort of say something like, listen, we all know each other and we all trust each other, we have some disagreement, but I'm asking you, because of the love we have for one another, to really reconsider this.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think in a small group conversation that probably is effective and appropriate, and in a group of 200 people, I don't think it is.
SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's really important.
SPEAKER_00: What you said is that house churches really do function differently from churches ten times their size, a hundred times their size, and and should.
SPEAKER_00: And um communication is really different in all those bits, and I and again I think that's what we're getting to see.
SPEAKER_00: I don't think Paul intended for this letter to be written in I'm I don't want to say the wrong thing here, but I don't think Paul was imagining, I am writing uh, you know, a chapter of the Bible that people would reflect on for millennia.
SPEAKER_00: I think he just was writing to ten people saying, hey, look, I really want you to do the right thing here, and in my mind, the right thing looks like this.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna command you to let this person free.
SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't have to.
SPEAKER_02: I did not get the idea that he was set free, but that he was re-accepted by the gilomone.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think re- we don't have I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00: So I I think the upon reading this a couple of times, I'm not convinced that Paul is sending Onesimus back to be Philemon's slave.
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I'm pretty sure he's sending him back to be a co-worker for the gospel, not uh underneath him.
SPEAKER_00: I I think what Paul is trying to do here is um change the category of Onesimus in this house church's mind.
SPEAKER_00: So because Anesimist is now a member of the way, which we would call Christian now, and Philemon is a member of the way, the old way of doing things, uh, which is uh about property and total patronage has been upended.
SPEAKER_00: They really need to function in some ways now as peers, not as master servant.
SPEAKER_00: Um we don't have a unfortunately another chapter in which Paul says, here's how that functioning should work.
SPEAKER_00: Like at the end of the day, anesimus, I want you to sweep and cook and clean like you did before.
SPEAKER_00: And hey, Philemon, I want you to call anesimus by his first name and say, please.
SPEAKER_00: You know, like we don't have those instructions.
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of left to us to imagine how they redefine the relationship.
SPEAKER_00: But Paul is really bold to say, hey, look, I'm giving you a new brother, not a slave.
SPEAKER_00: And I again I I think this book is rife for abuse because the context of slavery has changed.
SPEAKER_00: And again, I try to say that's that's part of the relevance of including the black preaching class.
SPEAKER_00: Um, people who grew up with and continue to blow grow up with black skin in this country have a completely different relationship with the words slave and slavery than I do as a white person.
SPEAKER_00: I'm utterly convinced of that.
SPEAKER_00: And so how we talk about that and make space for, I think, very different contextual understandings is hard and really important, and how we do that and maintain relationships seems really important.
SPEAKER_00: You know, again, I I think a good evidence of that was uh six or seven years ago when the campaign Black Lives Matter came out.
SPEAKER_00: And you know, the immediate white response, if you don't mind me saying, is well, all lives matter.
SPEAKER_00: So what do you mean black lives matter?
SPEAKER_00: All lives matter.
SPEAKER_00: And of course the point was, yes, all lives matter.
SPEAKER_00: And since black lives aren't being treated like they matter, we want to send that reminder that black lives do matter.
SPEAKER_00: Like we take for granted that white lives matter, so we need to remember that black lives matter.
SPEAKER_00: You know, and so like there was a lot of different ways that that got handled uh based on this different racial context.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think uh how we approach this letter is is you know, that just illustrates the difficulty of having this conversation.
SPEAKER_00: And and part of it needs to be, I think, what Paul does well here is he speaks having determined a relationship and being committed to one.
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't say, I mean, he he I guess he could, he could say, listen, if you don't do this, we're never talking again.
SPEAKER_00: Paul doesn't make his relationship with Philemon contingent on his obedience here.
SPEAKER_00: And he comes close to it, but he doesn't do that.
SPEAKER_00: And I and I think the starting point is we're going to be connected, um, and that's why I think you, you know, I have really strong feelings about this, and um I want you, even if you don't have strong feelings, Philemon, I want you to make space for mine, because they're so strong that if you care about me, you'll make space for my feelings on this.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess our Zoom meeting, there we go, let's see.
SPEAKER_00: Are you guys still there?
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_02: Well, everything you said.
SPEAKER_00: Can you still see me?
SPEAKER_00: Because my Zoom screen disappeared.
unknown: Are you still there?
SPEAKER_00: I'm still here on the phone, but I can't see you on the computer.
SPEAKER_00: Are you able to see me on the screen?
SPEAKER_02: I can't see you.
SPEAKER_02: We can't see you.
SPEAKER_02: We can hear you.
SPEAKER_00: Can you see Sandra on your screen?
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: He I think is he's probably trying to help me figure out what.
SPEAKER_00: Going on.
SPEAKER_00: Tom is a professor and he uses Zoom a lot more than I do.
SPEAKER_00: I was actually in a Zoom meeting yesterday, and this same thing happened.
SPEAKER_00: Like sometime into the meeting, it just sort of dropped out.
SPEAKER_00: So like my screen just quit.
SPEAKER_00: So let me just see if I can get us back on.
unknown: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, I I I I hope that's that's uh a helpful understanding of what I think our opportunities are here with with Philemon and with Paul.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think it's you know again, it just it just reinforces for me how important context is uh when we do all things and uh how we go about hey there, Tom.
SPEAKER_00: Let's see.
SPEAKER_00: Yep, there we go.
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Tom.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: My internet may have might have gone out.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, maybe let's hop over to Colossians just for a second.
SPEAKER_00: Um and maybe it's helpful to say with Colossians that most scholars call this a Deuterot Pauline letter.
SPEAKER_00: Deuterone is just the Greek word for second.
SPEAKER_00: So the idea is that Paul probably didn't write this himself.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, this was written by somebody very close to Paul.
SPEAKER_00: So we have a list of people that could have been, like, you know, Timothy or Silas or somebody named, but maybe somebody not named.
SPEAKER_00: The reason scholars make that claim is because the diction and the syntax and even the themes are kind of like Paul, but not quite right.
SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's very unlikely somebody changed their fundamental uh lexicon w when they wrote one letter.
SPEAKER_00: Um that doesn't mean it's less important.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was thinking about that this morning.
SPEAKER_00: We often think the gospels are super important, but we have no idea who wrote them.
SPEAKER_00: You know, Matthew, Martin, Luke, and John, those are traditional titles, but we don't know those people wrote those gospels.
SPEAKER_00: So again, to say, well, Colossians may not have been written by Paul, so it's of secondary importance, I think is a mistake.
SPEAKER_00: The truth is, it's included in Scripture, so we're meant to have a robust conversation with it.
SPEAKER_00: Um, all this other stuff, though, is maybe just feeding our curiosity.
SPEAKER_00: Um, I will tell you that our book is really naughty and says it reflects Gnosticism, and that's dead wrong.
SPEAKER_00: There's no Gnosticism until the middle of the second century.
SPEAKER_00: That's like the 130s, 140s.
SPEAKER_00: Part of the reason we know the Gospel of Thomas is written later is because it reflects Gnosticism, which wasn't around in the first century.
SPEAKER_00: So the book's really wrong, sorry.
SPEAKER_00: Uh Neoplatonism, definitely, like that's being that's being dealt with.
SPEAKER_00: Uh same with mystery religions and astrology.
SPEAKER_00: So, like, I would focus on those thoughts and not on Gnosticism because I just I don't think that's helpful.
SPEAKER_00: Um we we do get to hear, and this is interesting, right?
SPEAKER_00: That um we're supposed to avoid empty philosophies, we're supposed to avoid things like angel worship, and uh, you know what that looks like is really interesting because I would tell you there's people I know today that still put a lot of currency in angels and guardian angels and uh that sort of business.
SPEAKER_00: And is that what they're talking about?
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: It's not really clear that we know, um, but I think the reminder is angel in Greek means messenger, and so um our opportunity is always do we pay attention to the messenger or to the message?
SPEAKER_03: The uh Hero Age to 19 uh at the bottom it says the the theological attempt.
SPEAKER_03: Jesus the image of God is God made uh yes.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I mean I I think the idea, and this is true with like um the use of icons in worship, which the Western tradition has kind of pushed away.
SPEAKER_00: You know, in the West, we ultimately try to use sculpture more than we use icons.
SPEAKER_00: Um the idea is that the icon, you don't pray to it, you pray through it.
SPEAKER_00: So it has this like physical representation that in some ways is like a funnel for your spirituality, and it helps like it helps you funnel your intention.
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that comment is trying to say, hey, Jesus is like this in some ways funnel.
SPEAKER_00: He had a physical representation which is meant to assist us in connecting that God is not just some ephemeral spiritual being only, but has like physical representation and reality we can interface with.
SPEAKER_00: And that's actually, I think, a really helpful way to read Colossians when you think about Neoplatonism.
SPEAKER_00: Neoplatonism said physical material things are of lesser importance than spiritual ones, and to hear, aha, like Jesus is incarnate and that matters is a way of correcting that and saying our bodies are not of secondary importance to God or to one another.
SPEAKER_00: What we do with our bodies is our spirituality.
SPEAKER_00: And this book is interesting too because a lot of the Nicene Creed as it stands came from uh misunderstandings about this book.
SPEAKER_00: So you you may know a little bit about uh the creed.
SPEAKER_00: There was, and this is curious, a black priest from Alexandria called Arius, who was tall and strong and really clever.
SPEAKER_00: And he pushed that Jesus was not co-eternal with the Father, but was the image of God, the first thing made by God, but a creature, not the creator.
SPEAKER_00: So Arius believed, and the words came right out of Colossians, Jesus is the firstborn of creation.
SPEAKER_00: He's the image of the Father, but he's not the Father.
SPEAKER_00: That's what Arius pushed.
SPEAKER_00: And he did it like Martin Luther did.
SPEAKER_00: He took beer-drinking songs that were sung in taverns, and he changed the lyrics to reflect that theology, and they were really catchy.
SPEAKER_00: And um Bishop Alexander and and his sort of acolyte um Athanasius disagreed with Arius, and they won the day at Nicaea because they said, no, Jesus is co-eternal with the Father.
SPEAKER_00: And firstborn of creation is not meant to be taken literally, it's meant to lead us into this idea about iconography.
SPEAKER_00: It's to help us understand physicality is good, uh, spirituality is not disconnected from the body, and firstborn shouldn't be read like, oh, father and a literal son.
SPEAKER_00: It should be read like your firstborn is your future and your inheritance.
SPEAKER_00: So Jesus represents the future inheritance of God, which means he's God.
SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't mean to to get too far off the topic.
SPEAKER_02: But uh when when uh when the Pope changed the Nicene Creed.
SPEAKER_02: Did that come out of here?
SPEAKER_00: You mean uh in the year 1060 when the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Um I you know, it might have, yeah, it might have.
SPEAKER_00: Uh but the problem with that wasn't that he made the change, it's that he did it unilaterally without calling an ecumenical council.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was a total power play.
SPEAKER_00: And and I don't know that Pope, so I don't know his motivation, but it sure came across not as, hey, this guy's really trying to help us grow into good theology.
SPEAKER_00: It came across as I'm in charge, you'll do what I say.
SPEAKER_04: Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm listening to lectures from uh Egan, uh a Carmelite professor, and he keeps using the term triune God for what she talks about.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really that's really, really common.
SPEAKER_00: And I I uh I hope it's helpful uh to think about the Trinity, is this funny thing that we don't really know what to do with, and uh and I would put in the realm of imagination, uh and I I mentioned this with St.
SPEAKER_00: Patrick last week, um we often think that the Trinity is something like uh Neapolitan ice cream, you know, chocolate, strawberry, and vanilla.
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, if you buy the cheap kind, they all taste the same anyway.
SPEAKER_00: Uh they just have slightly different colors.
SPEAKER_00: But what if uh the father, the son, and the spirit are radically different from each other?
SPEAKER_00: And there's still one.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's the interesting bit to consider uh with community, that we can be radically different, not just have different colors and really taste fundamentally the same.
SPEAKER_00: But if we're thinking about ice cream, I mean this could be something like chocolate and then like sriracha goat cheese fig, like something totally weird.
SPEAKER_00: And uh, what they share, of course, is uh the fundamental ingredients of ice cream, but the taste and the expression is not even similar, like it's radically different.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that's a good way to have conversation with books like Colossians uh and what we've done with it.
SPEAKER_00: There's another funny move that happens in Colossians.
SPEAKER_00: The fullness uh of God was pleased to dwell in Jesus, and in some ways that underlies a uh kind of a dreadful theology of something called adoptionism, in which God looked at Jesus as an adult and said, Okay, I can work with this guy.
SPEAKER_00: So he entered into Jesus at baptism, but left him before the cross because you know God's too big to suffer pain and die, and that makes a neat exit, and that was another heresy.
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, uh the church decided ecumenically was um, no, no, God was pleased to dwell in Jesus from birth on, from embryo on.
SPEAKER_00: And it uh God was pleased to have to nurse and to get pimples and to get diarrhea, like none of that really bothered God.
SPEAKER_00: Um, God was pleased to dwell fully in our physicality.
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting that we have like totally different opportunities how we read this book.
SPEAKER_00: Did Jesus earn God's pleasure or did Jesus start with it and act down of it?
SPEAKER_00: And and that conversation uh has had very, very different decisions and it's it's kind of played out for us uh in in really different ways.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Colossians goes on to say, hey, um you should stay away from aestheticism.
SPEAKER_00: Like you should stay away from people who say uh taste doesn't matter and touch doesn't matter and smell doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00: You should stay away from people who are essentially saying punish your body so your spirit can live.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this Colossians addresses that.
SPEAKER_00: So it's what's funny is um chapter one has been used to advance that position that our bodies are bad, but chapter two says very plainly, our bodies are really good.
SPEAKER_00: And like Tim said, we get these really interesting ethics as we go forward that say things like, hey, change your clothes.
SPEAKER_00: Like stop dressing yourself in ways that are not helpful, put on new clothes, and one of those ways is forgive each other and submit to one another out of love, not out of obligation.
SPEAKER_00: Don't just follow positional authority, have relational authority.
SPEAKER_00: So wives submit to your husbands, and in return, husbands make sure you love your wives.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, children uh obey your parents, but parents don't provoke your children.
SPEAKER_00: You know, it was sort of like a classy way of redoing social hierarchy.
SPEAKER_00: And maybe this is happening because Paul thinks, hey, we in some ways need to have social structures, but we don't need to abuse them.
SPEAKER_00: In fact, the structure is there to help us know how we ought to treat each other, but if we just go to the structure, we can end up in really abusive relationships.
SPEAKER_03: Well, isn't that what the um the laws we're supposed to do?
SPEAKER_00: You would hope so.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you would hope so.
SPEAKER_00: And I I think we're we're coming into this new, you know, as our culture continues to change.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, keep in mind, wives kind of have to submit to their husbands in places where women can't earn their own money and own their own property because the laws dictate that, you know.
SPEAKER_00: So, in some ways, Paul is saying, like, ladies, let's just be real, you're gonna have to submit to your husbands legally.
SPEAKER_00: And husbands, that submission is not something you deserve.
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's supposed to be accepted with love.
SPEAKER_00: Now, I think our culture's changed a lot because women are able, of course, to be professionals and to own their own land and to earn their own money.
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know that submission is the correct cultural word anymore unless we say that in a loving marriage, of course, if you love each other, you have to mutually submit.
SPEAKER_00: But it's not one-way submission, it's mutual.
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if Paul were writing today, if he would say, wives submit to your husbands, and husbands love your wives.
SPEAKER_00: I I wonder if he actually wouldn't back it around because of a uh a history of this being used poorly, and say, husbands, submit to your wives because you love them, and wives, you know, uh make sure you lovingly accept and tread gently on that submission.
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_03: Yes, with coming with the coming of Christ and with Paul, is this the first time we talk about love so much?
SPEAKER_00: Um say that again, Tim.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_00: I my zoom just ended, and I'll try to pick it up, but I can still hear you.
unknown: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: If if Christ and the disciples, the first time that you hear love as part of the uh the theology um no, I think I think though it's a constant conversation that has to be upgraded, because again, you can say you're supposed to, you should, and then uh people maybe don't.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, like the whole idea, and this is interesting because he talks about Paul talks about parents, um, and he says, again, you know, children have to obey, and fathers don't provoke.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we could take that literally, but uh, but I think the reminder is um that this is not just fathers, this is the pater familias, and that's the person who is a you know, in general is a man, but is somebody who is supposed to be in charge of ensuring the well-being of the entire household, including children, cousins, nieces, nephews, and slaves who live in a compound, and uh making sure those people are are not just advancing educationally and with meaningful work, but are also fundamentally happy.
SPEAKER_00: So if we just hear this is directed to dads, uh we're missing out.
SPEAKER_00: This is saying, hey, the people who are responsible uh for ensuring uh that our children grow are not and our slaves you know are tended to should not provoke them, uh, which really means parenting with empathy and compassion.
SPEAKER_00: And and uh I I I think that's uh an opportunity for us to hear this.
SPEAKER_00: Paul isn't the first person to do this, but you know, we struggle to do it so much that we get reminder after reminder after reminder.
SPEAKER_00: Uh and I I'm suspicious we need those reminders.
SPEAKER_00: Um, thanks for tuning in.
SPEAKER_00: I I'm sorry that we Oh, there we go.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, there you're back.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Tim, I I uh I'm thinking my answer is Paul's not the first person to do this, but I think the truth is um all of us struggle with just following structures.
SPEAKER_00: And so I think what what we're getting here are the constant reminders that we need about how we're supposed to be behaving um constant reminders that we need um about living living into fullness of things instead of just sort of settling.
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
unknown: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we can hear you.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: Well, no, again, I I I hope that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00: I this isn't original.
SPEAKER_00: There obviously have always been people who, you know, look at who frank frankly function relationally and not just positionally.
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is just a reminder about relational ethics and not just hardcore living into authority because you have it, uh, but using that authority to take care of people who actually don't have the authority to take care of themselves.
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's this like really interesting approach, and and parenting is certainly changing.
SPEAKER_00: I you know, the I don't know how much it's gonna change and where this is all going, but like um between just being top-down or being like friends with your children, and and these are things we're just trying to figure out.
SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I I uh I certainly don't think that the power differential can be equalized with parents.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my you know, my parents named me.
SPEAKER_00: I I didn't name my parents.
SPEAKER_00: That's an unequal relationship for the rest of our lives.
SPEAKER_00: Um, nonetheless, even though the relationship is not completely equal, I I feel like I've experienced a lot of friendship with my mother.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so um there's there's kind of the both and approach, and I I think that's Paul.
SPEAKER_00: I think that's what Paul is trying to do.
SPEAKER_00: He's not trying to say, listen, um, 40-year-old parents and their five-year-olds have completely equal roles.
SPEAKER_00: He's saying, Children obey your parents, and parents don't provoke your kids.
SPEAKER_00: So there are going to be these structures and these differentials in how we have authority, and in some ways we need that, that's true to living, but those aren't an excuse for mistreating.
SPEAKER_00: In fact, they're meant to serve us, so let them serve you and serve one another through them.
SPEAKER_00: I used to be a high school teacher, and some of my colleagues would allow students to call them by their first name, and I think that's a terrible.
SPEAKER_00: Terrible way to use our authority.
SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, I could be friendly with my students, but I'm giving them grades.
SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean I'm grading their work.
SPEAKER_00: So they don't have the same power I have in the relationship.
SPEAKER_00: Do I want to cultivate their respect?
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: However, if I disagree with them about what's best with them, best for them, I mean I have the power in the relationship, and that's for a good reason.
SPEAKER_00: If I get super saturated with us being equals, I lose that ability to wield authority I'm supposed to have for their advancement.
SPEAKER_00: If I abuse my authority, it's also really bad.
SPEAKER_00: You know, so I think I think Paul's just trying to remind us of those things, like yes, children are supposed to obey, but parents don't be dictators and don't provoke.
SPEAKER_02: When I was thinking in the principle, you know, that's what I tried to think.
SPEAKER_02: Now you're not a treatment.
SPEAKER_02: So uh I don't know if that's the same thing, but uh yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00: It's really about modeling how we want people to treat one another given that we have authority, you know, and yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And you know Pat Pat put in that this could be different with adult learners, and it could be, but again, if you're if you're taking a course for credit, your teacher is going to decide whether you've earned the credit or not.
SPEAKER_00: And so at the end of the day, I think there's something about friendliness and cultivating connection and compassion, but when there is any kind of credential or grade on the line, the power isn't equal.
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't think that's a bad thing.
SPEAKER_00: I just think it's what do we use, how do we use power differentials?
SPEAKER_00: And how do we treat them um, you know, respectfully and with good boundaries?
SPEAKER_00: And in some ways, maybe that's what Philemon is all about, too.
SPEAKER_00: Figuring out how it is that we live into, you know, uh our roles and our boundaries respectfully.
SPEAKER_00: And um instead of saying let's get a w get rid of all boundaries, it's no, no, how do boundaries protect our relationships and how do we respect them and do them right?
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know if it's worth hearing, uh, but I think this is still true for us socially because we we prize equality a lot, and sometimes what we don't realize, and and this is Brene Brown's work coming out, is that um the most compassionate people are really good at setting boundaries.
SPEAKER_00: Because if we don't set boundaries, what happens is resentment.
SPEAKER_00: And so um, this is a for me a live skill is I really want to say yes to people, but sometimes I say yes to people who don't value my time, and as a result, um I find myself really resentful.
SPEAKER_00: I I once did a wedding for a couple for free, and that's fine, that's what I'm here to do.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but the wedding started an hour and a half late, and I can tell you I wish I'd said no to it, because I resented them so much for devaluing my time by having me stand there and wait for an hour and a half until they got ready.
SPEAKER_00: And um I moved on past that, but it was a good reminder, hey, we're starting at two o'clock, and if you're not ready, unless we've got like a five-minute window, then we're just gonna reschedule.
SPEAKER_00: And there's no there's no rule on that.
SPEAKER_00: There's no, you know, again, there's no rule that says, hey, I don't take contingencies uh in mind, but again, um I felt like because I was doing this for free, which was fine to do, uh there was no respect for my time.
SPEAKER_00: And it was all very, very casual.
SPEAKER_00: And in other situations, it could be like, hey, somebody got in a car accident, so we can't start on time.
SPEAKER_00: Well, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00: But there was no catastrophe, the people just weren't prepared.
SPEAKER_00: Um I I I think that's the deal, you know, um, is just is figuring out how we set boundaries that allow us actually to live our integrity without resentment.
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is part of what Paul is trying to trying to offer to us.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know how to respond to that.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, I I think um what's going back to what we said already, I think what's sad is that Colossians has been used to advance a lot of heresy, including adoptionism and Arianism, and that our bodies ultimately are meant to be deprived.
SPEAKER_00: When I think the whole book is to say um our bodies are really good things, and we experience God in the body and in relationships, hierarchical or not, and and that's our invitation.
SPEAKER_00: Pat asked if I would allow my children to call me by my first name.
SPEAKER_00: Um not when they're under 18.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, when I when I'm paying the bills, um it's an unequal relationship, you know.
SPEAKER_00: So uh when they're older, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I uh oddly enough, I went through a phase where my brother and I called our parents by our first name, and it was silly of us, and they they allowed it um because they didn't fight back, and I suppose I wouldn't fight back either, but um I call my mom mom.
SPEAKER_00: Still.
SPEAKER_00: I think it does, and I will tell you, relationships always change.
SPEAKER_00: So I had former students of mine um ten years ago, and now we're both adults.
SPEAKER_00: And some of them call me Mr.
SPEAKER_00: Stone because that was my name in the geometry room.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but others of them might say, listen, if you keep calling me that, it's okay, but we're not gonna be friends.
SPEAKER_00: So, in order to change the relationship, if you want to, you're going to have to call me by my first name.
SPEAKER_00: Because otherwise, I'll still be your teacher instead of your peer.
SPEAKER_00: So I think we have opportunities to navigate that, but um, how my mom becomes my peer, um I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a different degree from a student and a teacher.
SPEAKER_00: I just I think so.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and there's biological connections and and the idea that my daughter's a birth and nobody's reverbert.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: And and I didn't think the fact that it's different is bad.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what Paul's saying is, you know, some relations, you know, relationships should strive for equality when they can, but sometimes we think we're being equal, and and actually that equality is undermining our ability to make meaningful connections.
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I I'm grateful for your tuning in.
SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know what we'll do.
SPEAKER_00: We'll look for emails about what we'll do next week, okay?
SPEAKER_00: Um I'm not sure this has been the best opportunity.
SPEAKER_00: Um but but let's next week we're supposed to read Ephesians, so look for announcements on how we'll do that, and uh hopefully we'll fix this platform and can actually be a little better connected than we were.
SPEAKER_02: Well, I I just want to say in the middle of this pandemic, allow us to take the time to have this interaction like a very, very special role as your parishioners, we appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm I'm really grateful, and uh like everybody else, we're trying to figure out how do we stay connected even though we can't be proximal.
SPEAKER_00: So um thanks for your patience for that.
SPEAKER_00: I know it's like it's dreadful when uh it's hard to get technology to do what we think it's supposed to do.
SPEAKER_00: So so thanks, and we'll keep trying.
SPEAKER_00: I mean I think that's the bottom line.
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to turn off the phone and and see if the speaker is working.
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
unknown: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: No, you Tim, you'd have to