WEBVTT 00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:06.959 All your creatures, Lord, will praise you, and all your people will give you thanks. 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:18.719 They will speak of the glory of your royal power and tell of your might, so that everyone will know your mighty deeds and the glorious majesty of your kingdom, your rule is eternal. 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:19.519 Amen. 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:21.280 Amen. 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:24.160 Okay, well, um, welcome. 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:26.719 Let's talk about Philemon and Colossians. 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:52.640 And I'm wondering if there were um ways in which these scriptures sort of touched your heart first, if there were issues that um, you know, were of particular interest to you, or the way in which Paul or one of Paul's disciples, uh, as it were, might have dealt with these scriptures, or ways in which uh your reading called you, uh you know, sort of pricked your heart uh this week. 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:36.159 Yes, so Paul's giving us like a new code of ethics uh that that is not necessarily meant to be an obligation, but an invitation into living bigger lives. 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:02.959 Bringing them together. 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:14.319 Well, thanks, Sandra. 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:21.360 And and and if it's okay, um maybe we can talk about um Philemon first, uh, if that's okay. 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:36.240 And um and just notice a few issues, and and I think one of the key um experiences I want to bring to the table is that when I was in seminary, uh my seminary in Atlanta had a uh a black church studies program. 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:43.759 So it was in general uh black men and women in the black church studies program who were going to serve in black churches. 00:02:43.919 --> 00:03:00.319 There were a few uh white colleagues who got a certificate in black church studies, but one of the uh opportunities that availed for us as students was that we could either take preaching or we could take black preaching, uh, and these were requisites to get our MDIF. 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:02.080 So I took black preaching. 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:06.800 I didn't take white preaching, we didn't call it that, we just call it preaching. 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:17.759 And um, sure enough, uh, you know, we studied preaching in the in the black tradition, in the black church, uh, ways in which sermons are delivered, and then we got randomly assigned books we're supposed to talk about. 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:28.400 And and I lucked out because I was one of um three white people in the class, and I got Philemon to preach on, which is of course the book in which Paul deals with slavery. 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:40.560 And um, I I have to tell you, it was a little bit of a tough assignment for me because how do I, as a white person, get up and preach to a room of black colleagues about slavery? 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.000 And ultimately, I didn't choose to address slavery head-on. 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.599 I chose to talk about reconciliation, and man, they took me to task for it. 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.800 They said, How could you not talk about slavery? 00:03:51.039 --> 00:04:12.159 And um, I I think what's interesting about this letter that I've come to reflect on in my connection is it it represents Paul talking about something really difficult and not being definitive uh on like a social position, but using a whole lot of relational leverage to kind of be passive-aggressive. 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:14.080 I I don't know if that makes sense. 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:21.360 We have to remember that these letters were not studied in private, they were read out loud in house churches. 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:41.519 So Paul is essentially um calling uh Philemon to the carpet about Anesimus, and he's doing it publicly, and he's saying things like, you know, I could command you to do this, you owe me your whole soul, but I don't need to do that because you're gonna do what I want you to do, you know. 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:47.920 Um, hey, look, you lost Anesimus a slave, and you're getting him back as a brother. 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.879 Hint, hint, he's not your slave anymore. 00:04:50.959 --> 00:05:05.519 You know, I mean it's a sort of really interesting thing in which Paul does not condemn the institution of slavery outright, but he does say, hey, you sure as heck had better receive this guy Anesimus back as your brother now. 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:08.240 Um, which is this interesting thing. 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:22.560 And and I'll tell you, um in some ways, I do think Philemon is about Paul kind of having an intervention here uh that's about reconciliation, not about the institution of slavery. 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:26.639 And uh that did disappoint my colleagues, but I think it's right. 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:45.040 I I think Paul is not speaking to an institution, he's speaking to a single person in a relationship and saying, listen, this person uh is your brother in the Lord, and you need to treat this person as such, and you're gonna need to pay him, you're gonna need to be his patron, but you're not gonna own him anymore. 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:56.560 Um and and that's you know, that's an interesting way Paul goes about doing this, you know, and I think it reminds us like, how are we supposed to talk about social justice issues? 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:04.879 We can call them just black and white, and hey, if you don't do the right thing, like you're sinning, but to be honest, I don't know that life has always lived that way. 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:16.720 So I think Paul is giving a relational perspective saying, here's the right thing as I perceive it, and you can do it, and you can do it for me, uh, and that'll be good enough. 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:17.839 Okay. 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:23.600 That kind of adds to my idea of his skill as at what he does. 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:28.160 This is the way my Yeah, this is the way my mother would deal with things. 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:38.399 It's it's very bombastic and passive aggressive, and in some ways, um it can be passive aggressive because Paul has a relationship with the person. 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:39.279 Okay. 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:54.560 And uh I think it reminds us that when we deal with things like social change and ethics and value, of course, that always works the best when we have relationships, and this isn't Paul making a cold call to somebody through a letter. 00:06:54.720 --> 00:07:01.759 This is not him saying, like, hey, I really think recycling needs to be a need for all you non-recyclers. 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:08.879 This is somebody talking to somebody who they know and have spent time with and saying, Look, there's lots of reasons to recycle. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:17.040 Some of them uh you may not even consider valuable, but um do it for the sake of our relationship. 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:22.639 Now, was philosophical a woman? 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:24.720 Was sp was Philemon a what? 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:25.680 Sorry? 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.079 Was philoman a woman? 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:29.759 Uh probably not. 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:35.360 Probably not, because that's a masculine ending in Greek, not a feminine ending. 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:36.560 Okay. 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:50.720 Clearly, Philemon is uh in charge of a of uh the patron of a home community, like a home church. 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:57.040 So this is somebody with enough resources and enough living space to host a church gathering. 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:07.680 Remember, there's no public buildings that are churches at this time, so this is the owner of the of the biggest building in the community that's hosting this home church of ten people, maybe. 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:18.000 The way it's written is it doesn't seem like it's written to be read in the community. 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:20.399 It seems more like a private letter. 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:29.759 It seems that way, and remember that's that um that's in general how we tend to read these letters, but that's not how they were handled. 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:31.279 They were read out loud. 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:39.200 And again, what's interesting to think about is it's one thing to have this as a private letter, but imagine this is being read out loud. 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:50.080 It sort of obligates Philemon to do, you know, there's a lot of embarrassment on the line here for obeying essentially private instructions that are being read out loud. 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:52.480 And I think Paul's banking on that. 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.799 I think you'd have to do that really, really carefully. 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:17.919 I mean, imagine your priest getting up to give the sermon and saying in the sermon something like, Well, you know, we're all gathered here on Sunday morning, and Sandra, I just really want you to consider that what you're doing is not right, and you should make these changes, and don't just do it, you know, because it's the right thing. 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:23.200 Do it because you owe me your priest, your soul, and because all the people in the church can hear this. 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:25.360 I mean, that's what he's doing. 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:26.799 Right. 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:35.519 I I don't I would caution us against doing that in some ways, but um this is essentially a small group. 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:49.360 And and really, Paul is putting Philemon on the stage in front of people who know him and are going to hear Paul's instructions and authorities and measure up what Philemon does against them. 00:09:49.600 --> 00:10:05.759 Um I I I think what's interesting is sometimes we think there's a right way and a wrong way to address conflict, and I think there are probably are better and worse ways, but it is good to hear, and this helps me that Paul is not above being passive aggressive. 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:08.559 Because I'm not always above it either. 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.559 I don't know that as a general strategy, it's the best way to behave. 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:22.720 In fact, I think it can create some problems, and in some ways that helps us understand this guy's humanity and this guy working really with bona fide relationships. 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:31.919 Um, because I think the the thing is, whether it's your politics or your theology or your economics, we're not all purely rational beings. 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:39.919 A lot of the times we make choices we think are rational that came out of a relationship nexus that we didn't even recognize. 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:49.200 And and in some ways I think this is very hopeful that Paul does this, even though I hope you don't hear me do something like this on a Sunday morning. 00:10:55.919 --> 00:11:06.559 What kind of how much did you receive from the audience when you deliver your sermon? 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:08.720 Well, we don't know. 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:10.399 I mean, that's the interesting thing. 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:17.120 No, I mean when you gave the sermon to the to thank you. 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:24.240 What what I heard was hey, you didn't address the social justice issue of the institution of slavery here. 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:25.360 And I did not. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:34.879 I I read this uh as as a as an appeal for reconciliation rather than um something about the institution. 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:36.000 And and I get that. 00:11:36.080 --> 00:12:03.200 And I think the thing is um, you know, we have many opportunities to read about and inwardly digest this book, and um, you know, I would say that if we gave a sermon on this book five times, probably two or three of them should enter, you know, address social structures, but I I still stand firm that that's not the only way to read this. 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:26.000 Um I I think the question is, you know, and in the context I gave, which again, this letter is contextual, like it's really important to consider what's our context and and what can we um how do we exert authority in a community and how do we address um social wrongs when we're not all of the same opinion? 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:32.480 And I if anything, you know, um we had a conversation about that. 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.679 Well of life. 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:55.440 Um people who were, uh, if they were on their own and they weren't they probably wouldn't be alive. 00:12:55.759 --> 00:13:03.600 Yeah, and I think that's really helpful, is that this book is really about a patronage system, not about the African slave trade. 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:21.120 But I do know that like in a black preaching class, and this is part of the context, this book uh easily was used by slaveholders against their slaves because Paul's not forbidding the institution of slavery on his time or in future generations. 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:29.360 He's talking about one individual who um has proven himself worthy and therefore should be treated as a brother. 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:39.919 And you know, I think we could do some really dangerous work with this, Tim, and we could say, hey, well, Onesimus earned his right to be a brother because he did something helpful for Paul. 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:44.480 So when you earn your freedom, you can have it. 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:50.879 But people not like Onesimus who didn't make meaningful contributions, they just needed to be slaves. 00:13:51.039 --> 00:14:02.639 I mean, you know, this I think this book has a whole lot of opportunity given that our social context has completely changed for us to do a lot of uh to miscarry this in a lot of ways. 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:16.159 I was fortunate to be in a house church uh when I first moved to Galveston for a couple of years, but that wasn't my only church. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.080 Later I realized it was a house church. 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:31.919 This is kind of interesting to me. 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:35.600 I'm thinking back at the Yes, I can hear you. 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:37.919 Can you hear you now? 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:39.840 Yes, just fine. 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:42.720 Okay Yeah, Sandra, I appreciate that. 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:56.159 And I think I think this is an interesting thing, is sometimes we even normalize the church experience, and and even like in these times right now, uh, there is a huge difference between what the National Cathedral's doing and what we're doing. 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:13.279 I mean, I think there should be, you know, a giant church has really, in some ways, different relations giant churches like mega churches are already navigating how do you stay connected in a megachurch environment because when there's 5,000 people in the room, there's really no connection there. 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:20.639 So you have to have small groups and you have to have small service opportunities and studies, or you don't get any connections. 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:27.120 So that looks really different from a church with 200 people or a church with 20 people. 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:29.600 And again, I think that's part of the deal. 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:41.039 Like if I were in a church with 5,000 people, um, I think I don't know that you make a relational embarrassment spotlight for one person in the middle of 5,000. 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.159 But when there's 10 of you, that's a small group. 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:56.879 And I think you can sort of say something like, listen, we all know each other and we all trust each other, we have some disagreement, but I'm asking you, because of the love we have for one another, to really reconsider this. 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:05.679 Um and I think in a small group conversation that probably is effective and appropriate, and in a group of 200 people, I don't think it is. 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:09.360 And so I think it's really important. 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:18.799 What you said is that house churches really do function differently from churches ten times their size, a hundred times their size, and and should. 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:25.200 And um communication is really different in all those bits, and I and again I think that's what we're getting to see. 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:40.399 I don't think Paul intended for this letter to be written in I'm I don't want to say the wrong thing here, but I don't think Paul was imagining, I am writing uh, you know, a chapter of the Bible that people would reflect on for millennia. 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:48.720 I think he just was writing to ten people saying, hey, look, I really want you to do the right thing here, and in my mind, the right thing looks like this. 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.080 I'm not gonna command you to let this person free. 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:53.679 I shouldn't have to. 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:04.720 I did not get the idea that he was set free, but that he was re-accepted by the gilomone. 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.640 Yeah, I I think re- we don't have I appreciate that. 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:18.480 So I I think the upon reading this a couple of times, I'm not convinced that Paul is sending Onesimus back to be Philemon's slave. 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:27.039 In fact, I'm pretty sure he's sending him back to be a co-worker for the gospel, not uh underneath him. 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:34.960 I I think what Paul is trying to do here is um change the category of Onesimus in this house church's mind. 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:51.279 So because Anesimist is now a member of the way, which we would call Christian now, and Philemon is a member of the way, the old way of doing things, uh, which is uh about property and total patronage has been upended. 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:57.519 They really need to function in some ways now as peers, not as master servant. 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:05.759 Um we don't have a unfortunately another chapter in which Paul says, here's how that functioning should work. 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:12.799 Like at the end of the day, anesimus, I want you to sweep and cook and clean like you did before. 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:20.319 And hey, Philemon, I want you to call anesimus by his first name and say, please. 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:22.799 You know, like we don't have those instructions. 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:27.200 So it's kind of left to us to imagine how they redefine the relationship. 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:34.480 But Paul is really bold to say, hey, look, I'm giving you a new brother, not a slave. 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:46.319 And I again I I think this book is rife for abuse because the context of slavery has changed. 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:51.759 And again, I try to say that's that's part of the relevance of including the black preaching class. 00:18:51.920 --> 00:19:04.960 Um, people who grew up with and continue to blow grow up with black skin in this country have a completely different relationship with the words slave and slavery than I do as a white person. 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:06.960 I'm utterly convinced of that. 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:21.920 And so how we talk about that and make space for, I think, very different contextual understandings is hard and really important, and how we do that and maintain relationships seems really important. 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:30.960 You know, again, I I think a good evidence of that was uh six or seven years ago when the campaign Black Lives Matter came out. 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:38.240 And you know, the immediate white response, if you don't mind me saying, is well, all lives matter. 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.119 So what do you mean black lives matter? 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:42.000 All lives matter. 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.920 And of course the point was, yes, all lives matter. 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:52.960 And since black lives aren't being treated like they matter, we want to send that reminder that black lives do matter. 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.279 Like we take for granted that white lives matter, so we need to remember that black lives matter. 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:04.960 You know, and so like there was a lot of different ways that that got handled uh based on this different racial context. 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:14.480 Um and I think uh how we approach this letter is is you know, that just illustrates the difficulty of having this conversation. 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:24.960 And and part of it needs to be, I think, what Paul does well here is he speaks having determined a relationship and being committed to one. 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:33.839 He doesn't say, I mean, he he I guess he could, he could say, listen, if you don't do this, we're never talking again. 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.960 Paul doesn't make his relationship with Philemon contingent on his obedience here. 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.160 And he comes close to it, but he doesn't do that. 00:20:44.240 --> 00:21:06.000 And I and I think the starting point is we're going to be connected, um, and that's why I think you, you know, I have really strong feelings about this, and um I want you, even if you don't have strong feelings, Philemon, I want you to make space for mine, because they're so strong that if you care about me, you'll make space for my feelings on this. 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:11.440 Well, I guess our Zoom meeting, there we go, let's see. 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:13.440 Are you guys still there? 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:14.880 Yeah. 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:15.440 Okay. 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.960 Well, everything you said. 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:20.640 Can you still see me? 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.720 Because my Zoom screen disappeared. 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.440 Are you still there? 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:31.599 I'm still here on the phone, but I can't see you on the computer. 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.319 Are you able to see me on the screen? 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.359 I can't see you. 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:44.880 We can't see you. 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:46.160 We can hear you. 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:48.960 Can you see Sandra on your screen? 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:54.720 Okay. 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.759 He I think is he's probably trying to help me figure out what. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.640 Going on. 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:05.759 Tom is a professor and he uses Zoom a lot more than I do. 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:09.519 I was actually in a Zoom meeting yesterday, and this same thing happened. 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:13.519 Like sometime into the meeting, it just sort of dropped out. 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:16.480 So like my screen just quit. 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.079 So let me just see if I can get us back on. 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:21.519 Okay. 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:22.400 Okay. 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:37.359 In the meantime, I I I I hope that's that's uh a helpful understanding of what I think our opportunities are here with with Philemon and with Paul. 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:51.359 Um and I think it's you know again, it just it just reinforces for me how important context is uh when we do all things and uh how we go about hey there, Tom. 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:54.799 Let's see. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:56.160 Yep, there we go. 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:56.960 Thanks, Tom. 00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:57.680 Yeah. 00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:59.759 My internet may have might have gone out. 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:04.400 Okay, well, maybe let's hop over to Colossians just for a second. 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:15.200 Um and maybe it's helpful to say with Colossians that most scholars call this a Deuterot Pauline letter. 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.400 Deuterone is just the Greek word for second. 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.079 So the idea is that Paul probably didn't write this himself. 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:24.720 Uh, this was written by somebody very close to Paul. 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:34.319 So we have a list of people that could have been, like, you know, Timothy or Silas or somebody named, but maybe somebody not named. 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:43.680 The reason scholars make that claim is because the diction and the syntax and even the themes are kind of like Paul, but not quite right. 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:50.720 You know, so it's very unlikely somebody changed their fundamental uh lexicon w when they wrote one letter. 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:54.160 Um that doesn't mean it's less important. 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:56.480 I mean, I was thinking about that this morning. 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:01.519 We often think the gospels are super important, but we have no idea who wrote them. 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:08.240 You know, Matthew, Martin, Luke, and John, those are traditional titles, but we don't know those people wrote those gospels. 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:14.880 So again, to say, well, Colossians may not have been written by Paul, so it's of secondary importance, I think is a mistake. 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:19.839 The truth is, it's included in Scripture, so we're meant to have a robust conversation with it. 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.359 Um, all this other stuff, though, is maybe just feeding our curiosity. 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:29.200 Um, I will tell you that our book is really naughty and says it reflects Gnosticism, and that's dead wrong. 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:33.039 There's no Gnosticism until the middle of the second century. 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:35.519 That's like the 130s, 140s. 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:44.000 Part of the reason we know the Gospel of Thomas is written later is because it reflects Gnosticism, which wasn't around in the first century. 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.079 So the book's really wrong, sorry. 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.960 Uh Neoplatonism, definitely, like that's being that's being dealt with. 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:56.000 Uh same with mystery religions and astrology. 00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:02.079 So, like, I would focus on those thoughts and not on Gnosticism because I just I don't think that's helpful. 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:06.880 Um we we do get to hear, and this is interesting, right? 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:26.480 That um we're supposed to avoid empty philosophies, we're supposed to avoid things like angel worship, and uh, you know what that looks like is really interesting because I would tell you there's people I know today that still put a lot of currency in angels and guardian angels and uh that sort of business. 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:28.559 And is that what they're talking about? 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:29.599 Well, I don't know. 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:42.640 It's not really clear that we know, um, but I think the reminder is angel in Greek means messenger, and so um our opportunity is always do we pay attention to the messenger or to the message? 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:58.000 The uh Hero Age to 19 uh at the bottom it says the the theological attempt. 00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:12.559 Jesus the image of God is God made uh yes. 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:26.160 Yeah, I I mean I I think the idea, and this is true with like um the use of icons in worship, which the Western tradition has kind of pushed away. 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:30.960 You know, in the West, we ultimately try to use sculpture more than we use icons. 00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:37.200 Um the idea is that the icon, you don't pray to it, you pray through it. 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:48.000 So it has this like physical representation that in some ways is like a funnel for your spirituality, and it helps like it helps you funnel your intention. 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:56.079 And so I think that comment is trying to say, hey, Jesus is like this in some ways funnel. 00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:12.000 He had a physical representation which is meant to assist us in connecting that God is not just some ephemeral spiritual being only, but has like physical representation and reality we can interface with. 00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:16.960 And that's actually, I think, a really helpful way to read Colossians when you think about Neoplatonism. 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:35.839 Neoplatonism said physical material things are of lesser importance than spiritual ones, and to hear, aha, like Jesus is incarnate and that matters is a way of correcting that and saying our bodies are not of secondary importance to God or to one another. 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:40.160 What we do with our bodies is our spirituality. 00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:56.480 And this book is interesting too because a lot of the Nicene Creed as it stands came from uh misunderstandings about this book. 00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.759 So you you may know a little bit about uh the creed. 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:10.079 There was, and this is curious, a black priest from Alexandria called Arius, who was tall and strong and really clever. 00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:24.960 And he pushed that Jesus was not co-eternal with the Father, but was the image of God, the first thing made by God, but a creature, not the creator. 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:33.599 So Arius believed, and the words came right out of Colossians, Jesus is the firstborn of creation. 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.359 He's the image of the Father, but he's not the Father. 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:39.839 That's what Arius pushed. 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.240 And he did it like Martin Luther did. 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:50.400 He took beer-drinking songs that were sung in taverns, and he changed the lyrics to reflect that theology, and they were really catchy. 00:28:50.720 --> 00:29:06.480 And um Bishop Alexander and and his sort of acolyte um Athanasius disagreed with Arius, and they won the day at Nicaea because they said, no, Jesus is co-eternal with the Father. 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:14.240 And firstborn of creation is not meant to be taken literally, it's meant to lead us into this idea about iconography. 00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:26.000 It's to help us understand physicality is good, uh, spirituality is not disconnected from the body, and firstborn shouldn't be read like, oh, father and a literal son. 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.720 It should be read like your firstborn is your future and your inheritance. 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:36.400 So Jesus represents the future inheritance of God, which means he's God. 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:43.200 Well, I don't mean to to get too far off the topic. 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:50.240 But uh when when uh when the Pope changed the Nicene Creed. 00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.119 Did that come out of here? 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:05.680 You mean uh in the year 1060 when the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:06.720 Yeah. 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:12.000 Um I you know, it might have, yeah, it might have. 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:18.960 Uh but the problem with that wasn't that he made the change, it's that he did it unilaterally without calling an ecumenical council. 00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:20.799 I mean, it was a total power play. 00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:29.039 And and I don't know that Pope, so I don't know his motivation, but it sure came across not as, hey, this guy's really trying to help us grow into good theology. 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:33.200 It came across as I'm in charge, you'll do what I say. 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:41.119 Uh-huh. 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:51.759 And I'm listening to lectures from uh Egan, uh a Carmelite professor, and he keeps using the term triune God for what she talks about. 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.200 Yeah, that's really that's really, really common. 00:30:55.279 --> 00:31:07.440 And I I uh I hope it's helpful uh to think about the Trinity, is this funny thing that we don't really know what to do with, and uh and I would put in the realm of imagination, uh and I I mentioned this with St. 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:18.960 Patrick last week, um we often think that the Trinity is something like uh Neapolitan ice cream, you know, chocolate, strawberry, and vanilla. 00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:23.839 And to be honest, if you buy the cheap kind, they all taste the same anyway. 00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:26.160 Uh they just have slightly different colors. 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:31.680 But what if uh the father, the son, and the spirit are radically different from each other? 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:33.599 And there's still one. 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:43.759 I mean, I think that's the interesting bit to consider uh with community, that we can be radically different, not just have different colors and really taste fundamentally the same. 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:54.640 But if we're thinking about ice cream, I mean this could be something like chocolate and then like sriracha goat cheese fig, like something totally weird. 00:31:54.880 --> 00:32:05.440 And uh, what they share, of course, is uh the fundamental ingredients of ice cream, but the taste and the expression is not even similar, like it's radically different. 00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:14.400 Um and I think that's a good way to have conversation with books like Colossians uh and what we've done with it. 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.319 There's another funny move that happens in Colossians. 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:36.720 The fullness uh of God was pleased to dwell in Jesus, and in some ways that underlies a uh kind of a dreadful theology of something called adoptionism, in which God looked at Jesus as an adult and said, Okay, I can work with this guy. 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:48.880 So he entered into Jesus at baptism, but left him before the cross because you know God's too big to suffer pain and die, and that makes a neat exit, and that was another heresy. 00:32:48.960 --> 00:33:00.480 And ultimately, uh the church decided ecumenically was um, no, no, God was pleased to dwell in Jesus from birth on, from embryo on. 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:08.559 And it uh God was pleased to have to nurse and to get pimples and to get diarrhea, like none of that really bothered God. 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:13.119 Um, God was pleased to dwell fully in our physicality. 00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:18.079 So it's interesting that we have like totally different opportunities how we read this book. 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:24.240 Did Jesus earn God's pleasure or did Jesus start with it and act down of it? 00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:35.200 And and that conversation uh has had very, very different decisions and it's it's kind of played out for us uh in in really different ways. 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:40.559 I mean, Colossians goes on to say, hey, um you should stay away from aestheticism. 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:47.599 Like you should stay away from people who say uh taste doesn't matter and touch doesn't matter and smell doesn't matter. 00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:52.640 You should stay away from people who are essentially saying punish your body so your spirit can live. 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:54.960 I mean, this Colossians addresses that. 00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:05.759 So it's what's funny is um chapter one has been used to advance that position that our bodies are bad, but chapter two says very plainly, our bodies are really good. 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:18.719 And like Tim said, we get these really interesting ethics as we go forward that say things like, hey, change your clothes. 00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:33.280 Like stop dressing yourself in ways that are not helpful, put on new clothes, and one of those ways is forgive each other and submit to one another out of love, not out of obligation. 00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:37.840 Don't just follow positional authority, have relational authority. 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:43.599 So wives submit to your husbands, and in return, husbands make sure you love your wives. 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:49.280 Uh, children uh obey your parents, but parents don't provoke your children. 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:54.559 You know, it was sort of like a classy way of redoing social hierarchy. 00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:05.760 And maybe this is happening because Paul thinks, hey, we in some ways need to have social structures, but we don't need to abuse them. 00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:16.719 In fact, the structure is there to help us know how we ought to treat each other, but if we just go to the structure, we can end up in really abusive relationships. 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:24.880 Well, isn't that what the um the laws we're supposed to do? 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:26.239 You would hope so. 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:27.440 I mean, you would hope so. 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:33.280 And I I think we're we're coming into this new, you know, as our culture continues to change. 00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:43.920 I mean, keep in mind, wives kind of have to submit to their husbands in places where women can't earn their own money and own their own property because the laws dictate that, you know. 00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:49.599 So, in some ways, Paul is saying, like, ladies, let's just be real, you're gonna have to submit to your husbands legally. 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:53.920 And husbands, that submission is not something you deserve. 00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:57.920 Um, that's supposed to be accepted with love. 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:09.440 Now, I think our culture's changed a lot because women are able, of course, to be professionals and to own their own land and to earn their own money. 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:20.239 So I don't know that submission is the correct cultural word anymore unless we say that in a loving marriage, of course, if you love each other, you have to mutually submit. 00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.360 But it's not one-way submission, it's mutual. 00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:30.320 So I don't know if Paul were writing today, if he would say, wives submit to your husbands, and husbands love your wives. 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:47.440 I I wonder if he actually wouldn't back it around because of a uh a history of this being used poorly, and say, husbands, submit to your wives because you love them, and wives, you know, uh make sure you lovingly accept and tread gently on that submission. 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:52.320 Yes, yes. 00:36:53.760 --> 00:37:04.159 Yes, with coming with the coming of Christ and with Paul, is this the first time we talk about love so much? 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:11.519 Um say that again, Tim. 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:16.400 Yeah, I did. 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:21.360 I my zoom just ended, and I'll try to pick it up, but I can still hear you. 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:22.639 Okay. 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:48.800 If if Christ and the disciples, the first time that you hear love as part of the uh the theology um no, I think I think though it's a constant conversation that has to be upgraded, because again, you can say you're supposed to, you should, and then uh people maybe don't. 00:37:48.880 --> 00:38:02.000 Uh, you know, like the whole idea, and this is interesting because he talks about Paul talks about parents, um, and he says, again, you know, children have to obey, and fathers don't provoke. 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:38.400 Um, and we could take that literally, but uh, but I think the reminder is um that this is not just fathers, this is the pater familias, and that's the person who is a you know, in general is a man, but is somebody who is supposed to be in charge of ensuring the well-being of the entire household, including children, cousins, nieces, nephews, and slaves who live in a compound, and uh making sure those people are are not just advancing educationally and with meaningful work, but are also fundamentally happy. 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:45.440 So if we just hear this is directed to dads, uh we're missing out. 00:38:45.599 --> 00:39:01.840 This is saying, hey, the people who are responsible uh for ensuring uh that our children grow are not and our slaves you know are tended to should not provoke them, uh, which really means parenting with empathy and compassion. 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:08.239 And and uh I I I think that's uh an opportunity for us to hear this. 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:18.639 Paul isn't the first person to do this, but you know, we struggle to do it so much that we get reminder after reminder after reminder. 00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:24.239 Uh and I I'm suspicious we need those reminders. 00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:28.159 Um, thanks for tuning in. 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.320 I I'm sorry that we Oh, there we go. 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:32.719 Okay, there you're back. 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:50.480 Okay, so Tim, I I uh I'm thinking my answer is Paul's not the first person to do this, but I think the truth is um all of us struggle with just following structures. 00:40:51.039 --> 00:41:18.800 And so I think what what we're getting here are the constant reminders that we need about how we're supposed to be behaving um constant reminders that we need um about living living into fullness of things instead of just sort of settling. 00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:34.480 Yes. 00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:36.480 Okay. 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:40.000 Oh, okay. 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:42.719 Yeah, we can hear you. 00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:44.960 Okay. 00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:48.639 Well, no, again, I I I hope that makes sense. 00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:50.239 I this isn't original. 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:59.840 There obviously have always been people who, you know, look at who frank frankly function relationally and not just positionally. 00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:14.880 And I think this is just a reminder about relational ethics and not just hardcore living into authority because you have it, uh, but using that authority to take care of people who actually don't have the authority to take care of themselves. 00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:23.199 And so I think there's this like really interesting approach, and and parenting is certainly changing. 00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:37.199 I you know, the I don't know how much it's gonna change and where this is all going, but like um between just being top-down or being like friends with your children, and and these are things we're just trying to figure out. 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:46.320 Um you know, I I uh I certainly don't think that the power differential can be equalized with parents. 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.039 I mean, my you know, my parents named me. 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:51.440 I I didn't name my parents. 00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:54.719 That's an unequal relationship for the rest of our lives. 00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:02.239 Um, nonetheless, even though the relationship is not completely equal, I I feel like I've experienced a lot of friendship with my mother. 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:10.320 Um, so um there's there's kind of the both and approach, and I I think that's Paul. 00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:12.480 I think that's what Paul is trying to do. 00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:20.960 He's not trying to say, listen, um, 40-year-old parents and their five-year-olds have completely equal roles. 00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:25.519 He's saying, Children obey your parents, and parents don't provoke your kids. 00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:40.400 So there are going to be these structures and these differentials in how we have authority, and in some ways we need that, that's true to living, but those aren't an excuse for mistreating. 00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:45.760 In fact, they're meant to serve us, so let them serve you and serve one another through them. 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:59.519 I used to be a high school teacher, and some of my colleagues would allow students to call them by their first name, and I think that's a terrible. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:02.719 Terrible way to use our authority. 00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:07.119 At the end of the day, I could be friendly with my students, but I'm giving them grades. 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:09.599 You know, I mean I'm grading their work. 00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:13.599 So they don't have the same power I have in the relationship. 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.159 Do I want to cultivate their respect? 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:16.800 Yes. 00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:26.159 However, if I disagree with them about what's best with them, best for them, I mean I have the power in the relationship, and that's for a good reason. 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:35.280 If I get super saturated with us being equals, I lose that ability to wield authority I'm supposed to have for their advancement. 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:39.199 If I abuse my authority, it's also really bad. 00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:48.880 You know, so I think I think Paul's just trying to remind us of those things, like yes, children are supposed to obey, but parents don't be dictators and don't provoke. 00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:04.239 When I was thinking in the principle, you know, that's what I tried to think. 00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:42.960 Now you're not a treatment. 00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:49.039 So uh I don't know if that's the same thing, but uh yeah, I think so. 00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:57.679 It's really about modeling how we want people to treat one another given that we have authority, you know, and yeah. 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:13.199 And you know Pat Pat put in that this could be different with adult learners, and it could be, but again, if you're if you're taking a course for credit, your teacher is going to decide whether you've earned the credit or not. 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:28.000 And so at the end of the day, I think there's something about friendliness and cultivating connection and compassion, but when there is any kind of credential or grade on the line, the power isn't equal. 00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:31.599 And so I don't think that's a bad thing. 00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:35.920 I just think it's what do we use, how do we use power differentials? 00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:41.760 And how do we treat them um, you know, respectfully and with good boundaries? 00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:45.599 And in some ways, maybe that's what Philemon is all about, too. 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:54.079 Figuring out how it is that we live into, you know, uh our roles and our boundaries respectfully. 00:46:54.639 --> 00:47:04.800 And um instead of saying let's get a w get rid of all boundaries, it's no, no, how do boundaries protect our relationships and how do we respect them and do them right? 00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:27.920 I I don't know if it's worth hearing, uh, but I think this is still true for us socially because we we prize equality a lot, and sometimes what we don't realize, and and this is Brene Brown's work coming out, is that um the most compassionate people are really good at setting boundaries. 00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:33.599 Because if we don't set boundaries, what happens is resentment. 00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:46.320 And so um, this is a for me a live skill is I really want to say yes to people, but sometimes I say yes to people who don't value my time, and as a result, um I find myself really resentful. 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:51.440 I I once did a wedding for a couple for free, and that's fine, that's what I'm here to do. 00:47:51.599 --> 00:48:08.239 Uh, but the wedding started an hour and a half late, and I can tell you I wish I'd said no to it, because I resented them so much for devaluing my time by having me stand there and wait for an hour and a half until they got ready. 00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:20.800 And um I moved on past that, but it was a good reminder, hey, we're starting at two o'clock, and if you're not ready, unless we've got like a five-minute window, then we're just gonna reschedule. 00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:27.519 And there's no there's no rule on that. 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:44.639 There's no, you know, again, there's no rule that says, hey, I don't take contingencies uh in mind, but again, um I felt like because I was doing this for free, which was fine to do, uh there was no respect for my time. 00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:47.119 And it was all very, very casual. 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:53.440 And in other situations, it could be like, hey, somebody got in a car accident, so we can't start on time. 00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:55.119 Well, that makes sense. 00:48:55.840 --> 00:48:59.840 But there was no catastrophe, the people just weren't prepared. 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:15.440 Um I I I think that's the deal, you know, um, is just is figuring out how we set boundaries that allow us actually to live our integrity without resentment. 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:20.079 And I think this is part of what Paul is trying to trying to offer to us. 00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:16.880 Yeah, I don't know how to respond to that. 00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:33.039 I mean, again, I I think um what's going back to what we said already, I think what's sad is that Colossians has been used to advance a lot of heresy, including adoptionism and Arianism, and that our bodies ultimately are meant to be deprived. 00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:44.400 When I think the whole book is to say um our bodies are really good things, and we experience God in the body and in relationships, hierarchical or not, and and that's our invitation. 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:52.000 Pat asked if I would allow my children to call me by my first name. 00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:53.920 Um not when they're under 18. 00:50:54.079 --> 00:51:00.639 I mean, you know, when I when I'm paying the bills, um it's an unequal relationship, you know. 00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:02.719 So uh when they're older, yeah. 00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:18.159 I mean, I uh oddly enough, I went through a phase where my brother and I called our parents by our first name, and it was silly of us, and they they allowed it um because they didn't fight back, and I suppose I wouldn't fight back either, but um I call my mom mom. 00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:20.239 Still. 00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:29.039 I think it does, and I will tell you, relationships always change. 00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:34.400 So I had former students of mine um ten years ago, and now we're both adults. 00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:36.239 And some of them call me Mr. 00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:39.199 Stone because that was my name in the geometry room. 00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:40.639 And I'm okay with that. 00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:47.599 Uh, but others of them might say, listen, if you keep calling me that, it's okay, but we're not gonna be friends. 00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:54.400 So, in order to change the relationship, if you want to, you're going to have to call me by my first name. 00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:59.280 Because otherwise, I'll still be your teacher instead of your peer. 00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:08.239 So I think we have opportunities to navigate that, but um, how my mom becomes my peer, um I don't know. 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:10.800 I think it's a different degree from a student and a teacher. 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:12.239 I just I think so. 00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:23.760 Yeah, and there's biological connections and and the idea that my daughter's a birth and nobody's reverbert. 00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:24.559 Yes. 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:34.960 And and I didn't think the fact that it's different is bad. 00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:49.280 And I think that's what Paul's saying is, you know, some relations, you know, relationships should strive for equality when they can, but sometimes we think we're being equal, and and actually that equality is undermining our ability to make meaningful connections. 00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:50.320 Yes. 00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:58.639 Well, I I I'm grateful for your tuning in. 00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:00.480 Um I don't know what we'll do. 00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:04.000 We'll look for emails about what we'll do next week, okay? 00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:07.679 Um I'm not sure this has been the best opportunity. 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:20.159