WEBVTT 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:10.720 Located in what is now Central Turkey on his first missionary journey. 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:16.719 A short time later he was disturbed by reports that troublemakers had visited Galatians. 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:22.719 They were insisting that it was necessary for Gentile converts to be circumcised. 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:27.920 Paul wrote this letter to clarify the matter in no uncertain terms. 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:34.960 In the process, he also revealed much about how he understood his apostleship. 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:41.280 Galatians is one of Paul's earliest letters, probably written while he was in Ephesus. 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:44.240 And it is full of important teaching. 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:48.960 For this video segment, I'll be both host and presenter. 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:54.320 I will focus on a frequently overlooked emphasis in this and other letters. 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:57.759 Paul's use of maternal imagery. 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:06.959 The writer George Bernard Shaw once called the Apostle Paul the eternal enemy of men. 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:15.040 Vast numbers of people, many of whom may never have read Paul's letters, share that opinion. 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:22.560 They may know only that he said women should be silent in church and should keep their heads covered. 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:29.120 We don't have to search hard to find passages that seem to support Shaw's claim. 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:37.359 In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul argues that women should keep their heads covered and men their hair short. 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:43.439 He bases that argument on the claim that the husband is the head of his wife. 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:53.519 Later in the same letter, he, or perhaps a follower of his, insists that women should keep silent in the church. 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.640 Other passages conflict sharply with these perspectives. 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:06.799 In Romans 16, Paul recommends Phoebe, whom he calls a deacon of the church. 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:15.919 Later in that same chapter, he greets a woman named Julia, who is said to be prominent among the apostles. 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:22.719 These references seem to make clear there were women in leadership roles in the churches Paul founded. 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:34.719 Galatians 3.28 forcefully underscores our impression that Paul saw the gospel as a radical challenge to all social distinctions. 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.080 There is no longer Jew or Greek. 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:41.199 There is no longer slave or free. 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.039 There is no longer male and female. 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:48.800 So the evidence is confusing. 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:52.400 It has prompted almost endless discussion. 00:02:52.719 --> 00:03:01.599 And often people seem to line up to do battle, using these and other passages to support their particular points of view. 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:09.039 Instead of declaring war, we might look at another and very striking set of texts. 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:16.159 Those in which Paul speaks of himself as if he were the mother of his churches. 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:22.319 Perhaps the most fascinating of these texts is Galatians 4.19. 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:32.479 My little children, for whom I am again in the pain of childbirth until Christ is formed in you. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.120 Notice how complex this statement is. 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.159 Paul is the mother of believers. 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:44.879 He is in the process of giving birth to them again. 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:51.919 The threat to their faith is so powerful that you can think of this as a second labor. 00:03:52.960 --> 00:04:01.199 Paul remains in labor not until the child is born, but until Christ is born in the child. 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:08.879 I think we catch a glimpse here of just how much anguish Paul experienced over his churches. 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.599 He uses similar language in other letters. 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:29.839 In 1 Thessalonians 2, 7, as he is speaking about his initial visit to Thessalonica, Paul recalls that he and his associates were like a nurse tenderly caring for her own children. 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.720 What an evocative image. 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:39.360 In Roman society, many families employed wet nurses to feed infants. 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:47.839 These were often beloved figures, warmly remembered and honored by their charges when they matured. 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.199 Paul invokes that association, but he multiplies it. 00:04:53.839 --> 00:05:01.360 He was not just a nurse caring for a child, but a nurse caring for her own children. 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:07.600 Another passage in 1 Corinthians 3 has a somewhat scald tone. 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:22.000 Paul is chiding the Corinthians for their immature behavior, and says, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but rather as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:28.720 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for solid food. 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:37.360 That may not sound like maternal language to us, accustomed as we are to the baby bottle and infant formula. 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:46.079 In Paul's world, however, feeding with milk was the task of the mother or the wet nurse and no one else. 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:53.040 What does it mean to find Paul using language that belongs to the world of mothers and their children? 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:57.519 Three things come to mind, although you may think of others as well. 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:06.160 First, Paul's use of maternal language is another way of cultivating a family relationship among Christians. 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:16.319 To be in some sense a child of the apostle is to be closely connected to him and to others who are also children of the apostle. 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.360 We are in the same family. 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:28.480 Although we may experience difficulties in our families, we remain part of the family in good times and bad. 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:36.000 Second, when Paul speaks of himself as a mother, he makes himself vulnerable. 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:41.040 A woman who is in labor with a child knows she is vulnerable. 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:47.519 She is not in control of how her labor will progress or when the child will actually appear. 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:52.480 A nursing mother is also at the disposal of a baby. 00:06:52.879 --> 00:07:01.279 Despite all attempts at organizing infant feeding schedules, it is the baby who knows when she or he is hungry. 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:07.279 Third, in Paul's culture, mothers did not have the authority of fathers. 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:18.639 When Paul presents himself as a mother, he voluntarily hands over the authority of a patriarch in favor of a role that will bring him shame. 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:22.480 The shame of a female-identified male. 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:27.439 It is fascinating that we talk about these passages so seldom. 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.360 Even scholarly commentaries have little to say about them. 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:40.879 That was not true for earlier generations in the church's life, where there was a real appreciation for Paul's language. 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:54.879 In the 11th century, Anselmo Canterbury composed a prayer to Paul in which he wrote, Oh, Saint Paul, where is he that was called the nurse of the faithful? 00:07:55.360 --> 00:08:01.199 Who is that affectionate mother who declares everywhere that she is in labor? 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:08.560 Sweet nurse, sweet mother, who are the children you are in labor with and nurse? 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:14.319 But those whom by teaching the faith of Christ you bear and instruct. 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:17.519 Was Shaw right? 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:20.240 Is Paul an enemy of women? 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:26.160 Or is he, as others would have it, an early champion of women? 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:32.159 If we insist on asking the question that way, the answer must be neither. 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:37.919 Paul is not an enemy to women, set out to subject them to male authority. 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:42.639 Neither is Paul intentionally trying to liberate women. 00:08:43.519 --> 00:09:01.440 Still, a man who images himself as a mother to others is a man who knows that the gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to standards of evaluation that are not determined by what the rest of the world thinks is masculine or feminine. 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:06.000 This is a man women can welcome as a partner. 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:26.879 But I hope it was helpful because it's one of those big questions that people usually bring. 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:44.799 Maybe we could start though with either your reactions to that or images, um rhetoric, or themes in Galatians from your reading that were really um could be inspiring, could be off-putting. 00:09:47.039 --> 00:10:12.159 I've made reference in the past to my across before we started the study to do extra reading in order to work on making readings with all because I have in the past seen as an what I want to do with the video. 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:55.519 So this is a very helpful. 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:57.440 Thank you. 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:01.519 Is it okay if I engage that just a little bit? 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:08.000 And then let's come come back to Galatians too, because this is a big sort of study-wide theme. 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:20.080 And um I I hope it's helpful to say just a few examples of how I think we use culturally laden language without always realizing the implications that it makes. 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:27.759 So if you're reading your daily blogs in John, there's a lot of discussion about light, which is great. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:29.519 We're afraid of the dark. 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:34.799 Light is helpful to see, but part of that implies that light is better than dark. 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:40.080 And the way that's been mapped out a little bit is white is better than black. 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:45.759 And we sure have picked that up, and we may say, like, no, no, no, nobody really thinks that. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:54.639 Yes, we do think that, and our use like, good, dark, bad, unwittingly, I think, fortifies that. 00:11:54.799 --> 00:12:14.159 And the proof of that is in these DOD tests or this Harvard test about you can make a correlation between um like cockroaches and good uh and flowers and bad, and you will be much slower doing that than if you're associating flowers with good and roaches with bad. 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:19.759 So you can do that with racial terms as well, and it will reveal implicit bias. 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:25.120 This is all in a book called Blind Spot, and again, the DOD has been doing this for a long time. 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:29.120 Um, you can even do this uh online yourself. 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:44.960 You can take an implicit bias test, it's totally free, but part of what they do is it gauges how long it takes you to complete this inventory where you have to associate flowers with bad and black with good. 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:51.279 It will take you longer than if you do black with bad and flowers with good. 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:59.919 Or I should say, if it takes you longer, it reveals an implicit bias that you may not even be aware of. 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:07.360 Um lest we just think I'm talking about race, um, John also talks about being blind. 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.240 He talks about people being blinded. 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.600 So our association is blind is bad. 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:15.759 Well, what if you're a blind person? 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:24.000 In the Gospel of John, it's very clear that the people of Jesus' day thought being blind meant there was something wrong with you. 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:32.720 And I don't know that we think you earn or deserve it now, but we often associate blind people as people to be pitied. 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:35.440 And we are often afraid of it. 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:36.799 We're afraid. 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:45.679 Same as if you've got a birthmark that covers part of your face, or you've got a shriveled digit or a shriveled arm. 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:51.360 Um, and and so I don't think we're even aware of our implicit bias around these things. 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:59.519 If you know and love somebody who has to live with one of those conditions, you start to realize the depth of that bias. 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:14.399 And I think the the thing the Bible does more than anything, light and dark, okay, sided and unsided, but it does use cultural associations of women in some really negative ways. 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:20.320 So remember when we were reading the prophets, there's all this discussion about Israel as a prostitute. 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:29.440 And um at the time of the day, right, that was describing a way of practicing religion that the prophets were calling idolatrous. 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:50.240 However, we still grow up in a culture where I hear, I've heard people who I would go to church and worship with, who are educated people, say things like, Yeah, that happened to her, but she was asking for it because she was wearing short shorts, or they went on a date, and that meant she was giving consent. 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.320 I mean, I've heard really smart people say things like that. 00:14:54.639 --> 00:15:16.159 And I I think that kind of coded cultural language permeates the scriptures, which is a reminder that this is a document written by people to people with God's inspiration, but through our own cultural concepts, and we still have to make some work on how we do that. 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:24.960 So I think Paul's riding in the idiom of his day, and maybe he's even more liberated than the idiom of his day, but he still is riding in it. 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:30.720 And if you don't mind me saying one more bit, you know, Elizabeth Warren just dropped down to the race. 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:35.200 And so now we have another race where there's no woman represented. 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:47.279 And there's been these studies, and you can agree or disagree about this, it's fine, but um women have a much harder job running for president because they're they're viewed a different way than male candidates. 00:15:47.360 --> 00:16:01.360 And what I constantly hear people say, and actually I hear this voice in myself, is look, the first woman to run has to be flawless because otherwise she'll be dismissed for some unfair reason. 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:06.399 But that idea is what makes it likely no woman's gonna make it. 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:20.639 And any any natural character flaw or any natural mistake will be attributed to her femininity, not to her having a professional gap like any man does. 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:21.200 Right. 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:29.200 What I don't understand is is that a United States bias? 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:33.120 Because England had a very famous woman prime minister. 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.360 And look what she was called. 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:37.200 I don't remember that. 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.600 The Iron Lady because she was unfeminine. 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:51.519 She wore football player shoulder pads that were absolutely square, and her reputation was that lady, right, she bulldozes China shops. 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.240 She's more masculine than men are. 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:59.679 As if masculinity was the only place for strength. 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:05.839 And so I I don't want you to necessarily share my political ideas. 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:07.599 I'm even telling you what my ideas are. 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:16.319 What I'm trying to reflect is we still have this culturally laden use of language, and we don't always realize that there's implicit bias in it. 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:33.119 And um, I would suggest to you that permeates the entire Bible when we talk about images like fidelity versus prostitution, because what we usually think still is that prostitutes are the ones should be arrested instead of arresting the people who buy that. 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:34.160 Right? 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.519 We rarely assign blame to men. 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:46.880 We usually think of women as being the licentious ones who are just trying to benefit off their bodies instead of thinking, oh, maybe those women don't have other choices. 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:55.200 So this is part of the things that we we have to think around, I think, when we read anything and judge anybody. 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:05.119 So we go to the bias. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.119 And we know we're talking about time. 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:18.960 Um how do we how do we kind of turn that or down the road? 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:25.119 Well, how do we tease out what is biased and what is inspired? 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:31.200 Yeah, I think it's a great question, and I think this is what again, I think it depends on your whole view of scripture. 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:36.880 So if this is it, if God disclosed this and we don't get anything else, it's harder. 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:46.880 If, on the other hand, this is meant to be a holy conversation starter, uh then the conversation really ought to continue. 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:58.480 And I think what's interesting is women faced even more challenges then compared to now, and there's still women who are apostles, deacons. 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:02.880 So imagine in that culture, that's sort of your deal. 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:04.960 I don't want to say, look how far we've come. 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:12.400 That's a little bit silly, but then as now, um I don't want to say Paul is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:25.759 I think it's really easy for us to see, actually, Paul was actually pretty forward-thinking in his own day, but his language is still locked down in these images that honestly are at other people's expense. 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:29.440 I would task you with like an impossible spiritual discipline. 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:35.039 You go through a day without using an analogy that costs somebody something. 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:40.400 It's a tough one. 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.200 Think how how often we use sports metaphors. 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.200 That's a home run, that's a slam dunk, you know, these these kinds of things we do. 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:52.720 And um again, there's a little bit of athletic bias in some of these sorts of things. 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.119 Oh Mike, that's just a way of talking. 00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:08.960 But uh the words we use create the reality we live in, and and just to be really fair, uh, and I wouldn't have known this except um I'm married to somebody who's who pays attention to things. 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.680 Women are different sizes than men. 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:16.799 Women's shoes are a totally different size because women should be smaller. 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:19.759 So we've just arbitrarily made up a women's size. 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:25.119 I mean, look, you could have a universal sizing system, like that would be fine. 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.279 Um there is one, but we don't use it. 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:28.240 We don't use it. 00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:30.480 But everywhere else on the size 38. 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:36.960 Women's clothing sizes are arbitrarily different because women should be smaller than men. 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:46.880 The clothes are sometimes even cut exactly the same way, which is really sad because women's bodies are different from men's bodies, and we don't make room for that sort of thing. 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.119 So um, those are the tough ones. 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.200 You know, we made some real progress in the 80s. 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.599 We don't have firemen, we have firefighters. 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:54.880 Like we figured that out. 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:56.319 I think we got that one. 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.519 In general, we have police officers, not policemen. 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.240 I think we've mostly figured that one out. 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:06.000 We have flight attendants, we don't have stewardesses, right? 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:12.160 We're starting to make the deal between servers and waitresses, but I mean, these are just some small examples. 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:20.720 You could say those are really, really petty, but I would tell you the devil, that is the slanderer, is in the details. 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:24.799 So I think this is part of what we have to tease, tease out a bit. 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:28.000 And just to give you an example of uh Galatians language, right? 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:32.799 As for those mutilators of the flesh, Paul says, I wish they'd just cut the whole thing off. 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:34.559 That's what he says in Greek. 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:40.480 Emasculate themselves is the pretty way of saying that, which is still not pretty. 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.119 So these are kinds of words, and you know, that's what's really helpful. 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:50.319 Um in the Baptist church I grew up in, I would never say something like that in a sermon. 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:53.440 Here I'm actually a little divided about whether I would. 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.519 I've heard bishops use profanity in sermons, but hey, they're bishops. 00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.759 So there's really no one you can complain to. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:10.960 About them, you know, there's the sort of the deal, and we're still in the middle of what kind of language do we use that's offensive and non-offensive, at whose expense is it? 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:14.559 And I do think that's part of this conversation that's really important. 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:19.440 And it comes back to how we view scripture, Tim. 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:29.759 I think, as to like, you know, are these words so set that they can't be argued with, or are these like, again, are these conversations starters? 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:37.279 And we have an opportunity to say, hey, I really like where you're going, so let's think about how we can get there more safely. 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:52.240 I I think it's interesting that these scriptures, or at least many people, um seem to think that they don't evolve. 00:22:53.599 --> 00:23:01.920 Um and I would think that as the world changes, scriptures have to be evolved too. 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.599 Well, I think, you know, and I hope this is helpful. 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:09.200 Um, scriptures, sacraments, whatever we want to call, right? 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:12.160 And maybe it's helpful to think sacraments just for a second. 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:13.599 There's seven, right? 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:16.880 And I would tell you most people only do two or three of them. 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:22.960 And I would also tell you for me, there's sacraments that didn't make the seven. 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.079 Like learning for me is sacramental. 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:27.920 Well, it didn't make it into the seven. 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:35.519 I think everybody's got sacraments that didn't make it in the seven, but what we said is here's our shared common basis. 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:41.200 So go ahead and have more, but here's what we're seeing is the minimum we have in common. 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.359 And I think that's what we've done with the Bible. 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:47.440 We've sort of said, look, I if we're honest, right? 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.920 I've got novels that are in my book of scripture. 00:23:52.480 --> 00:24:01.440 And you've got different novels or nonfiction books that are in your canon of scripture, but these are the ones we're going to share and say, here's our minimum. 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:07.759 And what's curious is there's books in the minimum we don't like and that don't even seem to align with one another. 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:17.839 I actually think there's something really beautiful about that because the question then is we're forced to include in our sacred writings writings that don't agree with us. 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:20.319 And how will we treat them? 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:23.359 If we're Thomas Jefferson, we'll just sniff at what we don't like. 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:31.839 Instead, there's an opportunity to say, I'm gonna make room for you even though I don't like you. 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.640 Which is the body of Christ. 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:35.599 I think so. 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:36.799 I think so. 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:39.200 Yeah. 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:47.279 Now, Paul may not be making much room for the Judaizers. 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:50.160 He may not. 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:54.160 Well, and and and that's our fundamental issue here, right? 00:24:54.240 --> 00:25:01.279 And you know, it maybe it's helpful to just point out that in a letter we write, we would write, Dear Gina. 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:06.799 Now, the way Paul is writing a letter goes like this Dear Gina, I'm mad as hell at you. 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.960 So interesting he chose to use dear Gina, that social convention. 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.880 Paul gives this greeting that is very not heartfelt, right? 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:17.759 To the people in Galatia, grace and peace with you. 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.519 Now I'm gonna take it a task. 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:26.400 But I think it's such a it helps me to realize this is a snapshot in time. 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:28.160 You know what I mean? 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:29.759 That's how he felt at that time. 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:30.000 Yeah. 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:34.640 In root and responding to that particular set of circumstances. 00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:54.079 When I first left the denomination I was raised in, and and I found Galatians, I was like, I was, I'm out every line I was like, yes, yes, you know, I really was really, this meant the world to me. 00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:58.160 But ten years later, you know, I can look at it through a different lens. 00:25:58.400 --> 00:25:59.440 You see what I'm saying? 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:00.319 Absolutely. 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:01.759 And that's a great thing. 00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:18.000 Like Tim's saying is like not only do we have like this world global evolution going on of thought and interaction with one another, which by the way helps pandemic spread, but we also have evolution going on in our own lives, right? 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:29.680 And so, in in the in the one sense, Paul is telling people, I hope you'll just go and cut the whole thing off, but he's also saying we're one body many parts, and we really can't do without parts of the body. 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.559 So that's an inherent contradiction. 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:36.079 And and I do think there's many ways we can view this. 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:43.119 Um, liturgically, I think it's really interesting that sometimes we say things that aren't true, but that we feel. 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:51.519 I'm really positive that what I like about our liturgy when I'm thinking about it properly, is I can say things like God, I am wretched. 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.119 Because I feel like that, I truly feel that way. 00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:02.880 But then I get to hear that it is God's property to have mercy and compassion, which means my feelings aren't the last word. 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:04.319 There's also God's truth. 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.920 So I may feel wretched, but God doesn't feel that way about me. 00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:11.680 And so this I think is part of that. 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:26.480 Like we can be really mad, particularly because we want to be associated as a body, as one body, and we're mad at people who are cutting off other parts of our body or might not even have anything to do with us. 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:31.440 It's sort of like, how do you include somebody who doesn't want to be included with you? 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:39.759 Or and we've talked about that sort of thing before, and I think it shows up, or how do you include somebody who is excluding others? 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:44.240 And here's Paul getting really mad about that situation. 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:52.720 But also, I think you mentioned the the church you grew up in. 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.000 I grew up in as a ring church. 00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:56.319 Yeah. 00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.319 Probably about the same thing. 00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:10.319 And I think Paul, when you chastise or you identify as the group that follows the law. 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:22.400 I see that as also saying that fundamentalists, like the Baptists, are in the same boat as the people who try to impose the law. 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:23.920 Thank you. 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:33.039 And I want to pick you up there if I can and say what I think is like the biggest theme of this book, which is what every Christian, every person I know struggles with. 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:33.839 Right? 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:43.839 There's this idea, and Paul's gonna say it, that there is no difference between slaves and free, Jews and Greeks. 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:50.160 Really, the whole idea is that everybody, God has leveled the playing field for everybody. 00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:55.599 So imagine the hierarchies that we're used to being smooshed flat. 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:59.119 So a triangle goes to a line. 00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:07.279 It's a really great idea, but we have a really hard time living there because we're hierarchical people. 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:13.920 I mean, I would even tell you, hierarchy is so natural that my chickens have a pecking order. 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.920 My dogs have an order, and sometimes they'll push on it. 00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:25.680 Um, and it has nothing to do even with who's bigger or who's older or who's more athletically inclined. 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:32.160 Like my puppy has ascended over my 11-year-old dog who's much bigger than her, did that really fast. 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:33.599 I don't know why. 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:36.160 Maybe she's just got a little more vinegar in her. 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:41.839 Um, but but my older dog let that happen without challenging it. 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:43.519 It's interesting how that goes. 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:52.400 So in Galatians, everybody's the same, except how do you have better piety than somebody else? 00:29:52.640 --> 00:30:05.279 Now I want to tell you, having better piety than somebody else is like fundamentally a challenge in every community organization or religion I've ever been a part of. 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:14.319 So, as a teenager, the way this looked was: hey, there's these missionaries who are smuggling Bibles into Russia. 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.920 Look how faithful they are, more faithful than you. 00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:28.000 There's these people who are going to live in Africa and put up with all kinds of weird African things for the Lord. 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:32.960 These were the stories I got fed as a teen, right? 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:39.599 And I even worried, like maybe my piety wasn't good enough when I was gonna be a priest. 00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:49.839 Like maybe there were people more pious, like they they prayed more authentically, or they prayed more, or they were better Bible studiers, or they did more good works. 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:55.039 These are the kinds of things I think we still struggle with. 00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:01.839 Because what we want to do is say, how do we have confirmation we're doing the right stuff? 00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:06.880 Well, let's point to what we're doing, or to people who are doing less than us. 00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.359 And that way we can sort of rank and file. 00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:19.279 So look, we're all free in Christ, the Galatians say, but man, we would have a better confirmation if we went ahead and became Jewish as well. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.200 And we can say that's really foreign, but I don't think so. 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:24.960 I think that's very domestic. 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:29.440 Very domestic to our own faith lives. 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:36.720 I listen to radio preachers sometimes, and I say, my education is so much better than theirs. 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:39.279 How can they spout that stuff down? 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.039 And by the way, I think there's room for that. 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:49.599 I don't know that I have to make room for really bad stuff, but somehow I need to continue to make room for people. 00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.920 And I think that's the that's what Galatians is dealing with, right? 00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:00.880 How do I listen to somebody say, if you give money to God, God will pay you back literally? 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:02.480 I disagree with that. 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:06.000 So how do I stay in communion with that person? 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:12.880 There's people in the church I grew up with who just, if they listened to this, they would want to defrock me. 00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:16.400 How do I stay in communion with them? 00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:20.480 I could say, look, I'll accept our difference, but they won't accept mine. 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:22.799 How do I deal with that? 00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:33.759 Doesn't Paul say somewhere that if your hand is not doing the right thing, you cut it off? 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:34.799 That's Jesus, right? 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:37.680 And if your eye is causing you to sin, you gouge it out. 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.319 But here's the question: does your eye cause you to sin? 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.599 I wonder if that isn't just a little bit of blame, you know. 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:52.319 Where it's interesting because when we read in James, each one of us is dragged away by our own desire. 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:57.440 We want what we don't have, and we'll do anything we can to get it. 00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:05.200 Is it your eye that does that, or is there something in our spirit that we're meant to not cut off and destroy, but to grow out of? 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.839 And this I think is a really interesting image that Paul uses in Galatians. 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.480 We've been crucified with Christ. 00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:20.400 We're supposed to be dead to the law and to sin, otherwise, all of this was for nothing. 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:26.000 And if I can unpack it just a bit, people don't get crucified for stealing bread. 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.119 If you steal bread, you get your thumb cut off. 00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:39.519 People were only crucified if A, they were poor, and B, they were doing something like that was considered insurrection or treason. 00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:42.640 So crosses are not even for murder. 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:46.640 You murder somebody, you're gonna get stoned, you're gonna get your head cut off. 00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:54.079 Crosses are billboards that say here's what happens when you mess with the domination system of Rome. 00:33:54.240 --> 00:34:00.000 Here's what happens when you try to overthrow the culture that we've all decided to live by. 00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:01.519 And what's culture mean? 00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:03.759 The way we do things around here. 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:18.400 So I think what Paul is really inviting us to say is we're supposed to die to the way we do things around here so that we can live a new and different way. 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:25.440 Francis, Saint Francis experiences this when he kisses a leper. 00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:29.199 There was also a quarantine going on. 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:32.880 By the way, I'm not suggesting we violate that quarantine. 00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:49.599 But but Francis saw a leper and was overwhelmed with that person's humanity, and instead of maintaining appropriate distance, he didn't just go touch that leper, he kissed that leper, and that was his real conversion moment. 00:34:51.280 --> 00:35:03.760 And then that way, he not only died to social expectations, he died a little bit to his internal values that have raised him so that he could live a different way. 00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:14.000 By the way, I don't know, I'm not recommending we do something silly, but I think what Paul is saying is this idea of living as equals is so new and so hard. 00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.440 It's like we have to die to everything we're used to. 00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:27.039 Again, there's no way we can take little bits of the gospel and just add, you know, add a little here, add a little there, that will ruin both things. 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:33.760 The gospel is about us emptying ourselves utterly so that we can make room for something that's new. 00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:37.199 It's a total schematic, total worldview change. 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:38.960 I haven't made it. 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:40.239 I haven't made it. 00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:45.760 I can tell because when I read Galatians, I get really mad at those people. 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:48.559 And that's proof I haven't made it. 00:35:48.880 --> 00:36:00.320 And by the way, those people aren't the ones going around circumcising, those people are the ones who preach like or who do like or who blank. 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:11.599 I was a little over preaching, but I but I I I think this is the core the core bit. 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:25.119 Um I just happened to be reading Brene Brown again, and and she talks about really that there's a difference between things like hustling for our worth. 00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:35.039 She says the hustle for worth is when we try, try, try to justify our existence, and when we do things for ourselves. 00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:45.840 And I want to tell you, I think it's a razor's edge between those bits, you know, because sometimes I'll go jogging and it might start out for me in the middle. 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:55.199 I think about how I'm jogging faster than other joggers, or how I'm increasing in my training program, and that's gonna let me do blank in relation to other people. 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:59.280 It's really hard to separate that stuff. 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:04.159 And I'm not sure faith is really different. 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:12.880 Again, I tell you right now, like in my head, I'm like, well, I'm working full time, but I'm not with people full-time, so how do I like give full-time bank for the book? 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:13.679 I know what I should do. 00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:18.639 More recordings, more this, more that, more this, more that, so I can hustle for worth. 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:25.920 And um, I think Paul's asking us to get off the treadmill. 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:35.039 And he's mad that people are on the treadmill because in this case, being on the treadmill is hurting everybody else. 00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:39.760 It's inviting people to get up on the treadmill, not to get off. 00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:47.039 It's saying, your faith counts like nothing unless you get up here and run with me. 00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:53.599 You ever felt that way? 00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:57.280 This is where I think it really speaks to us. 00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:01.360 If we dismiss this as an old problem, we've misread it. 00:38:37.760 --> 00:39:12.880 I thought not only not in terms of rescuing, but in terms of teaching helping them to make better decisions, helping them to uh live stuff rather than getting handouts and when I would try to explain to the team why and how just getting a handout was hurting that person. 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:18.400 I was challenged. 00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:34.000 Sometimes I was horrible, but sometimes I was verbally, aggressively challenged, and my faith was a question how could you be a Christian and think that way? 00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:42.960 So so the difference in approach, the difference in thinking was the same as being radical. 00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:53.920 So it was it was a difficult function without becoming defensive or angry. 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:06.159 So I had to set those things aside in order to teach the team to consider a different view. 00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:06.960 Yeah. 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:18.400 And if it's okay, if you don't mind me, following, did you often feel like the handout approach was unchristian yourself? 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:19.679 Oh, absolutely. 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:20.559 Absolutely. 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:21.199 Yeah. 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:29.039 And so both of you had strong visceral resistance to the mindset of one another and you're working on the same team. 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:29.599 Yes. 00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:33.440 And and the question was, how long could you do that? 00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:44.880 Could you reconcile those differences and appreciate what each other's intentions were, or was there a point where you needed for your own mental health to say, I've got to step back? 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:46.239 Yes. 00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:58.079 I struggled with that for years, trying very desperately to fit in and be a part of the team and lift the team up to a higher level of serving. 00:40:58.159 --> 00:40:58.320 Yeah. 00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:02.159 What I considered, my my thought was a higher level of serving. 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:20.719 And finally I realized they don't want to be lifted up, they don't want to hear me anymore, I'm not being useful, and the turmoil that I felt every time I went in there because I was ready for their pushback. 00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:26.960 And it was not a it was years I did that. 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:33.599 And then I finally made the break and just resigned. 00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:40.639 And I didn't do it in an angry way, I just said I need to this. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.119 I'm resigning. 00:41:45.679 --> 00:42:05.360 And I was invited to come in or asked to come in and give some feedback on how they worked, and I declined that because they hadn't listened to me all these years, and I didn't want to put myself through that agony of speaking out and being rejected again. 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:06.880 And being rejected again. 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:11.199 So, what would it have taken now that you've had some distance? 00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:17.039 What do you think would have had a little more holding power for you? 00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:20.159 Holding on me? 00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:32.639 Yeah, like what do you think could have helped manage that situation a little bit better, obviously, where you didn't get burned out and come in anticipating resistance? 00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:36.960 Or at least come in like utterly defensive, you know. 00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:42.800 I don't know. 00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:48.719 I think I wanted to be a part of that so much, and we wanted to be of service. 00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:55.199 Not just not a part of that, but to be of service for the church to use what gifts have been given. 00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:03.840 That if I had any idea of what would have helped, I would have done it. 00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:04.480 I would have done it. 00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:21.440 Where I am now, I shifted in terms of I'm done explaining, I'm done teaching. 00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:49.679 Where I am now is is if I tell somebody that I have changed churches, and I've just done that within the last week, have made that step to say not only am I not a part of the team anymore, I am not attending a church. 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:55.599 I have, and what I say is I have found another church that is a better fit for me. 00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:59.760 Because if I explain why it's a better fit for me. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:05.760 That I am criticizing what is key to their faith basis. 00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:07.760 And I don't want to do that. 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.119 That works for them. 00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:12.079