WEBVTT 00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:03.120 What do you make of the end of Romans? 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:20.079 And particularly I'm going to ask what there was an image or a phrase again that gripped you, or uh you felt like God was asking you to change in some way, or if you just had a downright visceral reaction. 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:34.079 He struck me as wanting to be inclusive, which is something that of course is still working. 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:36.240 Would you say more about that? 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.479 I think he was really trying to convince people of what really mattered. 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:13.920 That you need to if someone wants to do it that way, that's okay. 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:22.319 Thank you. 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.879 In the community needs to be something very hard. 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.759 We need to be with those things. 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:35.120 Yeah, that's interesting. 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:37.680 So I I wonder about that strategically. 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:54.080 If there's people who, and and this is all hypothetical, if there's people who are dividing themselves or causing division, and you want to try to include them, they may not want to be included. 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:57.680 So how do you include people who don't want to be included? 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:04.960 Or how do you include people who won't include the people you're wanting to include them in? 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:06.800 Does that question make sense? 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:11.599 And I think it's a really thoughtful question, and I I appreciate your sentiment. 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:14.800 I think I think you're right, but the how I think is the tricky. 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.680 And Paul didn't really tell us how, I don't think. 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:33.919 I think he expects that if we follow what he outlined as ethical behavior, that everyone should everyone that believes in Christ should recognize that. 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:39.039 Now how that happens, I'm not sure he gives us a way. 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:51.439 So I think there's a tension here, and and maybe I'll speak to the church that raised me, was to take this literally like keep a distance from bad people. 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:52.240 Right? 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:53.840 So stay away from bad people. 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:55.280 Or to boot them out. 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:56.479 Or to even boot them out. 00:03:56.560 --> 00:04:01.120 And then the question becomes well, like, what's the criterion for bad people? 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:02.960 They don't think like I think. 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:05.439 Um, and that's really tough. 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:10.639 So, and I think actually I see scripture going back and forth on this, and as I mentioned before, right? 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:20.639 Like, I don't I don't really want my daughter growing, you know, intimately associated with children who are exposed to pornography and drugs. 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.319 Because like I don't, you know, like I don't want her to be formed that way. 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.639 Um, so when does that quit? 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:35.279 And how do I teach her, like, hey, we don't do it that way, and you don't need to tell them that they're wrong. 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:47.439 I mean, that's really it's really tricky, you know, and and um I Richard, I think you put your your your finger on really like I think an ideal strategy. 00:04:47.600 --> 00:05:00.639 But I know if I said to um people who I really love, like, hey, it's okay that we disagree among matters of faith, but let's stay in the family, they would say, no, it's not okay. 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.959 We really don't have anything to do with each other because you didn't believe like I believe. 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.800 Well, I'm not changing that, and I'm not changing that either, so we're done. 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:11.120 I mean, you know, I think it's really, really tough. 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:12.480 Really tough. 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:26.240 I think for me, it it's the um you have to discern the objective, or if there even is an objective of the people who are causing divisions. 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:28.800 Is it their objective to divide? 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:33.839 Or are they do they legitimately have questions and feel differently? 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:35.360 You see what I'm saying? 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:36.160 I do. 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:44.639 Um, and I think that might speak to whether to avoid them. 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:49.279 Is Paul getting at people that are just being divisive for the sake of being divisive? 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:49.680 Yeah. 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:56.160 Or people who are really re-examining their faith and have legitimate doubts and questions. 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:59.199 And I and I wonder about both scenarios. 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:06.720 So I'll tell you, like, I'm intimately related to somebody who has this like tragic flaw of self-self-sabotage. 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:13.199 So when somebody starts to grow close, they try to sabotage the situation to prove they're not worthy of it. 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:15.920 And I don't think Paul is really interested in me. 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:18.480 I don't know what I don't know what Paul would have thought. 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:22.000 I don't think God wants me to say, well, look, they just want to be devices and stay away. 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:28.639 I mean, actually, I think kind of like what Richard's saying, people who are self-sabotagers need even more embrace. 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:34.240 Because the truth is they're not doing that because they're evil, they're doing it because they're scared. 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.920 They're actually worth being loved, which is really terrifying. 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:49.759 Um, and when the community comes around them, that's when they may push the hardest and actually act down in ways that like seem the most evil but are the most inauthentic expressions of who they are. 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:52.879 I mean, this is really strange stuff. 00:06:53.199 --> 00:07:03.439 Um and we could, I think we could really think hard about stepping outside of church business in parallel. 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:11.120 We've got this national election, and and looking at how people handle that is really, really interesting to me. 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:15.199 Um, I don't want to like over-pontificate about it, but I'd just share. 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:24.079 I was reading John Wesley again recently, and John Wesley in 1784 wrote, everybody should A, vote for free. 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.519 So we shouldn't be like, our boat shouldn't be for sale. 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:34.800 Number two, we shouldn't speak any evil of the people we vote against. 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:43.279 And number three, we should strive not to sharpen our spirit against people who don't vote like we do. 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:45.759 That's really interesting, isn't it? 00:07:46.399 --> 00:08:00.399 Because we're firmly convinced when we cast our vote and we see somebody else vote, and how do we mix our belief that we're doing the right thing with living with somebody who's voting the wrong way? 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:04.240 And I think that's the problem with community. 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:11.120 And part of it is there are people I know who just are pushing against the rails. 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:14.959 But why are they doing that? 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:18.000 I don't know. 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:19.920 I don't know the answer to that. 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:33.440 The other interesting part about this is when Paul talks about how we're supposed to respect the government. 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.279 Then he doesn't say anything about civil disobedience. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:46.879 And I found out a little I couldn't come to curves with that. 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:48.799 I can help with that, maybe. 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:49.200 Okay. 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:54.799 Because there's a difference between positional authority and earned authority. 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:59.120 So I think it's okay to say I can respect the office of the president. 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:06.639 I can respect the fact that people seem to need hierarchized authority structures. 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.679 And I'll tell you, the Episcopal Church is very hierarchical. 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:13.679 Uh we don't always operate that way, but on our basis we are. 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:18.000 So I can respect the authority even when I disagree with my bishop. 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:34.000 Uh but hopefully I have a relationship with my bishop or my president or my mayor where I can continue to respect that person even when I disagree about a position. 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:46.399 And we all know, uh, and I think this is really, really true if you've been in the military ever, there is the difference between positional and earned authority, and you always respect the position even if somebody hasn't earned your authority. 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:50.799 I'm thinking more about uh say Martin Luther King when he when he wants. 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:57.519 And I think Martin Luther King's way of civil disobedience actually he had quite a bit of faith in the Constitution. 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:07.200 So he really believed in the positional authority of the Constitution, so much so that um he thought it was critical to resist nonviolently. 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:07.519 Right. 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:12.559 And I think that actually comes from acceptance of positional authority, not defiance of it. 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:13.840 I don't know if that makes sense. 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:15.279 Yeah, and Gandhi. 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:16.559 The same with Gandhi. 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:22.080 So I think if you don't believe in positional authority, you have a revolution or you're an anarchist. 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:28.399 And by the way, there's times revolution's appropriate, but how you do it, I think, is the real question ethically. 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:33.519 I'm willing to talk because I've enjoyed the benefits of violent revolutions. 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:44.480 I wonder, would you compare this also of this uh the church being embody to a family? 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:49.120 Do you have the same obligations within that group to respect everybody? 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:51.919 Because a lot of, you know, I'm just wondering. 00:10:52.399 --> 00:11:06.399 Well, I mean, again, I think there's positional authority in families and there's earned authority, you know, and so like I can definitely have respect for like father figure, even if my father hasn't earned the relational authority. 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:08.000 I don't know if that makes sense. 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:14.720 And we live in that tension, then what do we do then when a positional authority tells us something that's not right? 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:17.840 Sometimes we do it. 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.720 I don't always agree with how my tax dollars get spent, but I do pay my taxes. 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:25.120 The alternative just doesn't seem very wise. 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:38.320 However, if I there were a law that says I can't drink out of the same water fountain as somebody else, I might resist that law, although I would certainly know what's coming when I do that, or what may come. 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:42.480 So to be bitter about those consequences would be silly, even if they're wrong. 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:44.559 You know, I mean, it just would be uninformed. 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:46.559 And ultimately what Martin Luther King Jr. 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:58.639 chose to do is go ahead and suffer those consequences publicly, and in so doing, uh sort of galvanize the hearts of the United States against, hey, those consequences aren't just or right. 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:05.840 But I think it's tense, you know, and and I'll tell you, bound reinforcement is always tense. 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:10.799 I had somebody call me the other day on my cell phone to ask me when a funeral was. 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:17.440 And fortunately, I've spoken to this person enough that I felt very far from saying, hey, are you having an emergency right now? 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:22.000 No, do not call me on this number unless it's an emergency. 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.000 Again, do not call me again. 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:27.279 We don't call the chat on my cell phone. 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:34.000 While you're on the line, yes, the funeral's next week, but don't call me again unless it's an emergency. 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:41.360 And um, that may seem really tough, but it was right because I don't want to be called the chat by parishioners on my cell phone. 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:43.840 It's just it's not fair to me or to you all. 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:44.480 Yeah. 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:55.759 Yeah, there's other ways to get I felt harsh because setting a boundary like that is hard, but it was the right boundary to set, and I they didn't do it in a mean way. 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.320 I just said don't do this again. 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.759 This I think is part of the tension in here. 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:11.840 Yeah, so this group is a microcosm of this larger group that's in this document that we're reading. 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:17.600 Depending on how we read it, this is a microcosm of the whole earth. 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:21.039 And how we deal with this is really important. 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:27.840 And maybe it's okay to say, you know, he was talking about the word tolerance, and I kind of bristle with that. 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.240 I didn't think tolerance is really the goal. 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.240 I think the goal is respect. 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:34.639 Tolerance is probably the minimum. 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:38.320 Like if I can't respect you, I'll at least put up with you. 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:41.360 The world would be a lot better place if we could tolerate each other. 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:47.919 I I see those religious emblems on cars that spell out coexist, and I just think that's short-sighted. 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:48.559 I really do. 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:51.840 I think I think respect is the goal, not coexistence. 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:53.919 Um, what does that mean? 00:13:54.080 --> 00:14:08.399 That means that people who are Muslim, like, I don't need to just say, like, hey, we all got our own way and glad you got your own way, but to have some deep respect for their ways of faith, even though they're not my own. 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:11.600 And um, well, then why aren't I converting to them? 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:12.480 Because they're not my own. 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:22.080 I mean, I that's I think the hard tension is to have genuine deep respect for somebody who's different from you without having to be converted. 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.320 And um, and that's tricky. 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.080 It's really tricky when you've differentiated yourself and your own group. 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:37.919 Like I would tell you for me, it's easier to have respect for Muslims than it is to have for Christian fundamentalism because I came out of the latter, not the pro the former. 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.919 I saw a good example of that at Mercy Tree last week. 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:47.600 We have a client who is Hindu, and he does not join the prayer circle when we circle it to pray. 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:53.919 And so another client said to him, and I think his intent was to be respectful and inclusive. 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.879 Hey man, it's not about religion, it's about love. 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:01.039 And the client replied to him, not to me. 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:03.039 And he respected that. 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:04.480 He said, Okay, good. 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:08.320 Yeah, so I thought that whole exchange was really great. 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:10.799 I thought it was very respectful on both sides. 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:18.559 It's this interesting thing to think about, like inclusivity, because that implies you're including somebody in something. 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.320 So I think it's always the question is what are we including you in? 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:27.200 And there's these notorious signs that say the Episcopal Church welcomes you. 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:29.360 And by the way, I do think like it's a good welcome. 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:32.000 But the question is, what are we welcoming you to do? 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:34.879 Act like us, be yourself. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.919 And there's this tension that happens when I do these funerals that I talk about. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:46.000 Like I do funerals for people who have never been in the Episcopal Church before, and I call them tourist funerals. 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:51.519 And I can tell you that tourists are always surprised about what a church funeral looks like. 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:56.080 Like the first time I did one of these a few years ago, it was for a Baptist family. 00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:04.960 Mom was an Episcopalian, the family was there, I came in wearing the chasuble, and I heard an audible an audible gasp. 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.000 Because they didn't know we were gonna look Catholic. 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:09.919 They just had no idea, you know. 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:13.840 And it was really important to include them. 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:20.559 But at the end of the day, like you're you're a guest in our home, and we honor and respect you. 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:22.799 But it is also our home that you're in, you know. 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:28.960 So we tried to accommodate you within our house, and like how that gets played out is really interesting, you know. 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:36.879 They wanted communion because mom would have wanted it, but none of them were gonna take it because, well, it sounded like a you know Catholic. 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:51.919 So this is like this really interesting thing we do, you know, and like I'm doing a funeral this week for a family that had never been to this church, and uh, I sent them the bulletin, and they were like, Well, do we have to do all of those things that are in the bulletin? 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:54.320 Only if you want to have the funeral here. 00:16:54.480 --> 00:17:02.960 I mean, you know, like it's it's this interesting bit about like again, like we we welcome you and include you, but in what? 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:15.359 You know, like like we don't, and I think that's that's part of what has to get worked out is hosting people is inviting them as they are, but inviting them to join you in your house. 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:27.920 And it's different when we're in and when we're out, you know, because when we're in here, if you want to have a screen and a projector in the church, my answer is always gonna be no. 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:29.119 This is not who we are. 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.599 It would be dishonoring our home. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:41.359 And you know, if somebody wanted to come into your physical home and they wanted a squatty potty, it's gonna be hard for you to accommodate that, unless you have one of those. 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:44.559 I I don't have one, and I'm not going to install one for my guests. 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:45.200 You know what I mean? 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:50.319 Like I think I think this is real-world stuff, and I and I hope it's making sense to approach it. 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.799 Like, this is just really, really complicated stuff. 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.000 What's interesting is Paul saves us to the end. 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:04.319 He's in all of this like theological stuff, and now he's saying here's where the rubber now meets the road, and this is the hardest part for us. 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:12.880 And usually the churches I've been a part of get stuck in the theological stuff, and we just can't worry about anything, which means we can't do the real stuff. 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:16.000 Case in point. 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:22.720 Um, the very last thing Paul does, just going backward a little bit, is he does personal greetings. 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.799 Phoebe's a deacon, not a deaconess. 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:30.559 She's not a priestess, she's a deacon. 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:33.119 There's no debate about that. 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.400 Prisca and Aquila are apostles. 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:43.519 A woman is more important than her husband because she comes first, and she's an apostle. 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:45.759 She's not a nursery worker. 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:52.319 Junia, that's a woman's name, is an apostle. 00:18:53.359 --> 00:19:01.039 But us biblical people, we were sure women couldn't be ministers, but two women are called apostles and one's called a deacon, which is like an order. 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:02.880 Um, and it's this interesting thing. 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:09.759 We say, well, no, that word didn't mean what you think it means, which is just an argument from convenience. 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:14.880 The truth is the early church had women who were leading churches. 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:21.680 So am I gonna say it's okay that your church doesn't ordain women? 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:24.799 I mean, it's hard for me to respect that position. 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:25.759 I have to be honest. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.480 This is where the rubber meets the road, because that position is not defensible here. 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.079 Not defensible. 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:40.400 Um, even though in Timothy, Paul, not the Lord, Paul says women shouldn't be leading things. 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.559 In Romans, women are leading things. 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.039 So how do we work that out? 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:51.759 I always just kind of felt like Paul didn't really mean that. 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:54.000 Somebody else wrote it there. 00:19:54.319 --> 00:20:11.519 That's how our Yeah, I think it's a real interesting thing, and I I should probably be not over-sabotage you, but you know, there's this line in um in the Gospel of John, Jesus stands before Pilate, and Pilate says, Are you the king of the Jews? 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.000 And Jesus says, Those are your words, not mine. 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:24.240 But if uh if I were a king of this world, uh, you know, my people would be fighting for it, as it is my kingdom's not of this world, right? 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.200 Uh oh, so you are a king? 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.000 No, look, I just came to bear witness to the truth. 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:31.680 And then Pilate says, What is truth? 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:33.599 That's a really interesting question. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:46.640 And because I've been thinking about it for weeks, that question, um, I'm kind of maybe reading it in here, but I think it's a good frame because we live in this era of fake news, and the question is, well, what's truth? 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:55.279 And we want, I think, so badly to hold on to truth as like a fact, like this thing is true. 00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:03.279 And I and maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't know that truth is about things as much as it is about orientation to life. 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:11.200 So, like, I think when we're young, we want to hold on to a fact because that's something we can have. 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:18.720 But I I'm actually relatively convinced that's inferior to opening ourselves to a position. 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:27.599 So I don't even forgive me for saying this, I'm not always sure what's even factual, and I'm not even sure that necessarily matters. 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.880 I think the greater question is how am I oriented to the world? 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.079 Yesterday we did this Saints Day, Gregory of Nyssa. 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:41.680 He said, um concepts create idols, only wonder really knows. 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.720 People kill each other for idols, wonder brings us to our knees. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:48.880 Which is interesting to think about. 00:21:49.440 --> 00:22:08.160 Um I wonder about women in ministry, and I wonder about toleration versus respect, and I I wonder about even And as I look again at the political stage, but also the church stage, the raise me stage, is that we just aren't really saturated with idolatry. 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:15.920 For me personally, I'm just saying that what I'm learning about myself is that it's pride. 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:18.880 My need to know to be right. 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:20.640 To know that I'm trying. 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.720 And so what I've been latching on to this week, it may be different next week. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:34.480 But this week, what's really speaking to me is that I heard somebody else say it and I heard it out. 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:36.160 Shared beliefs. 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:39.839 I mean shared values over shared beliefs. 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:42.000 I think that's fair. 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:54.319 I do think if it's okay to talk about like a swimming analogy, you know, when we're thrashing around, it's really nice if we can have some anchors or some rest points or some buoys. 00:22:54.480 --> 00:23:00.240 And I think that's like the goal of grabbing on to facts because look, they don't sink. 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:02.160 You can hold on to them. 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:09.440 But I think the weird thing is that sometimes those buoys actually turn into anchors and they start to like make it where we can't go anywhere. 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.640 And sometimes they start to pull us under the water. 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:19.440 So I think the really question is, are anchors pulling us, holding us down, or are they lifting us up? 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:26.160 And uh maybe the question is, is life supposed to be thrashing around, or is it supposed to be about trusting and floating? 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:32.640 And uh and and I don't know, I go back and forth myself from one to the other, you know. 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:39.200 And here I'm speaking really strongly, like to deny women ordination to me is like it's just wrong. 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:46.160 It it's just you know, male power plays, and we can base it on whatever we think and call it truth. 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:52.079 And I think that's a really interesting thing to just one more comment about what is truth and about how we set these boundaries. 00:23:52.240 --> 00:24:03.039 Um, yesterday I went to my home, there's a there's a mayoral race here in SL Bay, and there's four candidates for like a thousand people, and I think you get$75 a month if you win, or something like that. 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:08.559 And I've had these two flyers rolled up and put in my door, which by the way is against the law. 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:13.920 Like you're not allowed to do that in the city to come put flyers in my door, and that's solicitation, you know. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:23.039 But but people are doing this, and I read one yesterday that said, like, hey, I really want you to vote for my friend, so and so. 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:27.839 And I thought, oh, you know, like because this person's your friend doesn't mean they're qualified. 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:32.079 But that's how we vote, and that's how our positions come. 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:34.079 I mean, most of my positions come that way. 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:45.279 Like, I'm comfortable with this person, so that's who I'm going to pick, or have some kind of attachment instead of really thinking about qualification. 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:51.759 And to be honest, like when we do anything, when we buy a car, it's not like we're objective car buyers. 00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:03.200 We have some kind of brand association or some concept that an SUV will do this or a truck will do that, that may have no grounding in reality whatsoever. 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:08.079 And I think that's the interesting thing when we talk about judgment, is our judgment is just really skewed. 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.680 Like, we'd really like to believe we're objective people, and we're not. 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:12.799 We're not. 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:17.759 So the question is like, I think what are our anchors in our subjectivity? 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:22.319 And are they yanking us down or are they lifting us up? 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:29.839 Maybe that's what truth's all about is like do your anchors pull you or do they do they lift you? 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:35.440 But I'll tell you, I don't know what truth is. 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:37.359 Objectively. 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.000 That sounds strange, but I but I but I'm not sure I know. 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:44.079 I I feel like I have more insight into like what roads I shouldn't go down. 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:50.000 But I don't know that there's a clear path of do this, do this, do this, and then God will be happy with you. 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:56.160 Because my my my faith seems to say God's already happy with me, even though I have a hard time believing that. 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:07.119 Going back to that concept of, and I agree with you that respect is our goal rather than just coexisting. 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:07.759 Yes. 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:24.480 But I've found that in helping people develop respect for people who are different than them, themselves, coexisting is the first step. 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:30.880 I uh developed and taught a spirituality and counseling course at UH Green. 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:40.240 Um and in doing that, my most of my students, many of my students were fundamentalized Christians. 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:44.079 And the first day of class was frightened to something. 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:52.000 And so I there were a couple that said, I've got to drop your class. 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.759 And I said, hang in here with me just a little bit. 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:01.200 Just give me three more classes and then I'll sign your leave. 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:13.279 Um the coexisting concept was necessary before I got them to the respect position. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:28.240 So it's a process that we have to go through of realizing that the other opposite belief doesn't have to be a threat to our personal belief. 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:28.960 Yeah. 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:34.960 I think you're right, and and I think that's a really helpful um thing to what Paul's talking about. 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.599 And the educational word is called scaffolding. 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:38.000 Yes. 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:47.359 So when we want to have a schematic change, that's like when we need to change our worldview, it's really difficult to just change a worldview. 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:51.839 Usually we need a scaffolding to help us sort of grow that up. 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.839 Um, and and the reason I think this is important is Paul talks about having the mind of Christ. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:08.559 He talks about be uh transformed by the renewing of your mind, and and this is a really helpful thing to hear since he's talking about Greek words. 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:14.880 Um, the renewing of your mind is about meta noia, which is the Greek word for repentance. 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:23.440 So meta, like in metaphysics, is a way of thinking that is beyond physical world, right? 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:32.480 So just use a religious metaphor, like we've got our our two eyes that are sensory, and then we have our spiritual third eye. 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:34.160 This is not just in Hinduism. 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:40.000 If you ever look in the iconic tradition, like go look at the icons of Mary and Jesus we have in church, they have a third eye. 00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:42.640 It's faint, but it's but it's it's there. 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:44.880 It's physically shaped like an eye. 00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:50.240 It's what sees the essence of things, not just the factuality of things. 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:55.759 And then your noose is not just like your opinion, your noose is like your worldview. 00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:03.200 So when you repent, you get a way of viewing the world that is above and beyond the way you used to view the world. 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:08.960 You don't switch Doritos or cleaning products, like you change the way you see the world. 00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:28.079 So when we talk about be transformed by the renewing of your mind, what Paul is saying is transformation comes from repentance, and it comes not from box uh checking, but it comes from fundamentally changing the way we see and interact with the world. 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:35.440 And he says we have the mind of Christ, and he doesn't mean like the way of thinking, he means the worldview. 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.000 Mind is like the schema. 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:54.079 So I think, like you're saying, there's part of our job as disciples is to create opportunities that give us the scaffolding we need to adopt the worldview of God instead of resting in our own. 00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.440 And then that becomes a really good question about our faith practices. 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:03.839 Are they pulling us up or are they holding us down, if that makes sense? 00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:09.599 Again, mind of God doesn't mean one mind, it means worldview. 00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:35.359 You know, and part of like I think the respect issue, the tolerance issue, and this happens in counseling, it happens, you know, for me when I was um working with um AA and NA people was oh, like I see your spirituality is actually helping you cope with this disease, even though it's radically different from mine. 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.519 And that's wonderful. 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:43.839 Because what if you had my spirituality, but you couldn't cope with this disease? 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:46.640 Uh you wouldn't be better off, you'd be worse off. 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.440 I don't know, I don't know if that makes sense. 00:30:51.359 --> 00:31:12.079 I think what's saying that goes right trying to get to not um to be respectful of the fact that other people are in a different place than you are otherwise, and I think that means you are not as strong as yours. 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:22.880 And so don't do anything that would cause them to lose it completely or stumble, be discouraged, or you know, to do those big steps. 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:25.039 I think is what you were saying. 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:27.599 I think that's what Paul is saying too. 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:39.519 That you know, whether you don't condemn somebody for eating meat, not eating meat, and be mindful of what you're doing in front of other people whose faith may be affected by watching your behavior. 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:52.160 And and then there's this other bit, right, that Paul says is you know, everyone should be unconvinced in their own minds, don't let what you do be spoken of as evil, but don't put stumbling blocks in front of people. 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:57.119 I have to tell you, as a young person, my church used that against me. 00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:04.720 Because if I was into something culturally or recreationally that could make somebody else stumble, I couldn't do it. 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:11.680 So it was really bad that I decided I wanted to get my ears pierced because some people thought that was wrong, even though I didn't. 00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:14.319 I can't live that way, you know. 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:20.160 So I'm really aware that it's a polarizing behavior for certain people. 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.160 And life is too short. 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.720 And I'm still trying to sort that out, you know. 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:26.160 I'm still trying to sort that out. 00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:33.839 Like I struggle with whether or not I need to wear long sleeves to work when I come on Sundays or when I go up in front of the Symphony League. 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:46.400 Sometimes I do it as part of respect, but um on the other hand, like there's nothing wrong with the way I've chosen to treat my body, and so that's your problem, not mine, and then we live somewhere in the middle, you know? 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:54.640 Um and this is a constant conversation that the church taught me to have, which meant like it's really hard for me to live freely and enjoy myself. 00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:00.160 When I make those choices, I'm fully aware people may not like them, and that takes some of the enjoyment out of it. 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:02.880 I don't know if that makes sense what I'm telling you. 00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:07.920 Um, and maybe it'd be better, or I don't know if it'd be better, it'd just be different if I just didn't care. 00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:15.920 I meet these people who are not concerned with what other people think about their personal decisions, and I think, how freeing that must be. 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.200 I don't know how to do that. 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.119 I don't know if that makes sense what I'm saying. 00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:24.160 I think that's part of this, I think that's part of this argument. 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:31.920 Somebody comes to my door and they're Mormon or they're a fundamentalist and they want to hear what I think about Jesus and how do I treat them? 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.400 Well depends on the day, to be honest with you. 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.720 Sometimes I say no soliciting. 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.920 Well, we're not soliciting, we just want to tell you that that's soliciting. 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.359 Thank you, have a good day. 00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:51.759 Or, you know, or do I try to take the time for somebody and actually open my heart to them knowing that like they may just hurt me again in ways that I don't want to be hurt? 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:54.079 You know, like, oh, I'm a priest. 00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:56.000 That's not gonna get them off my porch. 00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:56.559 It's not. 00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:58.799 In fact, that's gonna make them double down. 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:02.960 I know this because it happened to me more than once. 00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:05.279 Uh so you know, I don't know. 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.000 Do I say, hey friend, you didn't even ask my name? 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:16.719 And so, like, I appreciate your intention, but I would suggest you like meet people before you try and change their worldview and like make space for them. 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:18.239 Hope you have a good day. 00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:29.599 You know, like I don't know how to do that because anytime, and I go back to this person calling me in my phone to like chat, anytime you set a boundary, you may make a stumbling block for them. 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:39.280 But I think the other question is in worrying about making stumbling blocks for others, are you making them for yourself? 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:43.599 And this is the thing I think is constantly like a juggling act. 00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:57.280 And I'm not a woman, but a lot of times, I'll tell you, I was in HEB one time and I had my short sleeves on and I had my collar on, and this man came up and I was really confused. 00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:01.119 Like, is that a fashion statement? 00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:04.559 What a fashion statement. 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:08.960 No, it's my job. 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:11.199 He was really confused. 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:17.039 But Jenny, who you know, who worked for me here as our curate, she got that a lot. 00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:19.679 Because she was a woman wearing a collar. 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:21.119 I only had it once. 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:25.840 I was well, I guess I had it twice, but somebody asked me if I was making a fashion statement. 00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:28.320 She had that happen a lot. 00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.199 They just were confused, like, what are you doing? 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:32.000 You know? 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:39.360 And their default was um, not what I'm used to, so you're doing it for some bad reason. 00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:44.559 You know, it goes this they have the courage to ask, I suppose, which is good, you know. 00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:49.119 Um, but again, how do you how do you put up, you know, how do you navigate that? 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:54.480 You in putting up stumbling blocks. 00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:58.400 Perhaps you're not the one that's putting it up, but they're putting it out. 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.920 Yeah, and how we honor people along the way is really, really hard. 00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:03.519 I mean, I think this thing, I agree with you. 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.679 I think the stemming blocks are already there, but you sort of know that. 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:16.400 So again, maybe it's not whether you factually you're involved, it's how you're oriented both to those blogs and to the people who you know will stumble with them. 00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:18.159 I don't know the answer to that. 00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:28.400 You mentioned before, and I struggle with this, but I try to remind myself the Jesuit practice of everything that somebody says to you, you try to take it the best way possible. 00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:29.519 Yes. 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:31.519 It's hard. 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.559 Again, like I'm convinced that that's true. 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.079 It's not factual, but I'm convinced it's true. 00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:40.719 I don't know if that makes sense. 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.719 And we were afraid of that spirituality because it was Catholic. 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.119 I mean, that's how I grew up, but that is such a better way of living. 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:54.400 You know, like I'm convinced it's better to live that way, even though I don't know how to do it. 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:04.480 Um did not believe that women should teach. 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:24.159 Yeah, um, I found myself as a small group navigator and even as a couple of the church's decision was that um the male and the couple should do the teaching. 00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:28.400 Well, the male and this couple is not a teacher. 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:34.880 You know, I am the teacher, yes, and so the teaching fell to me. 00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:45.360 I found myself on several occasions having to say that was the this I was worried about the stuff a little longer. 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:46.000 Yes. 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:58.320 So the position I took at the time was you know, be sure I want to be sure you understand I'm not teaching, I'm only facilitating discussion. 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:07.280 Okay, I could do that, I did that for several years, and it got to be the point of it took too big a toll on me. 00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:15.519 It began to hurt me inside because I was not living authentically into my faith. 00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:22.320 And I was I was perpetuating the error of their interpretation. 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.840 Yeah, so I got to a point where I couldn't do it anymore. 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:28.320 I could not do that anymore. 00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:32.159 So I had to remove myself from that situation. 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:41.519 So it there was that tension there of not wanting to be a stumbling block, but putting the stumbling block in my heart and my mind. 00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:57.199 It's interesting because Paul says in 15 that strength is the ability to put up with the weakness of others, but then I think there's this other point in which um sometimes strength is the ability to non-bitterly say non-bitterly say enough's enough. 00:38:57.599 --> 00:38:58.559 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:02.159