SPEAKER_03: What do you make of the end of Romans?
SPEAKER_03: And particularly I'm going to ask what there was an image or a phrase again that gripped you, or uh you felt like God was asking you to change in some way, or if you just had a downright visceral reaction.
SPEAKER_09: He struck me as wanting to be inclusive, which is something that of course is still working.
SPEAKER_03: Would you say more about that?
SPEAKER_09: I think he was really trying to convince people of what really mattered.
SPEAKER_09: That you need to if someone wants to do it that way, that's okay.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
SPEAKER_07: In the community needs to be something very hard.
SPEAKER_05: We need to be with those things.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_03: So I I wonder about that strategically.
SPEAKER_03: If there's people who, and and this is all hypothetical, if there's people who are dividing themselves or causing division, and you want to try to include them, they may not want to be included.
SPEAKER_03: So how do you include people who don't want to be included?
SPEAKER_03: Or how do you include people who won't include the people you're wanting to include them in?
SPEAKER_03: Does that question make sense?
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's a really thoughtful question, and I I appreciate your sentiment.
SPEAKER_03: I think I think you're right, but the how I think is the tricky.
SPEAKER_03: And Paul didn't really tell us how, I don't think.
SPEAKER_07: I think he expects that if we follow what he outlined as ethical behavior, that everyone should everyone that believes in Christ should recognize that.
SPEAKER_07: Now how that happens, I'm not sure he gives us a way.
SPEAKER_03: So I think there's a tension here, and and maybe I'll speak to the church that raised me, was to take this literally like keep a distance from bad people.
SPEAKER_03: Right?
SPEAKER_03: So stay away from bad people.
SPEAKER_06: Or to boot them out.
SPEAKER_03: Or to even boot them out.
SPEAKER_03: And then the question becomes well, like, what's the criterion for bad people?
SPEAKER_03: They don't think like I think.
SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's really tough.
SPEAKER_03: So, and I think actually I see scripture going back and forth on this, and as I mentioned before, right?
SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't I don't really want my daughter growing, you know, intimately associated with children who are exposed to pornography and drugs.
SPEAKER_03: Because like I don't, you know, like I don't want her to be formed that way.
SPEAKER_03: Um, so when does that quit?
SPEAKER_03: And how do I teach her, like, hey, we don't do it that way, and you don't need to tell them that they're wrong.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's really it's really tricky, you know, and and um I Richard, I think you put your your your finger on really like I think an ideal strategy.
SPEAKER_03: But I know if I said to um people who I really love, like, hey, it's okay that we disagree among matters of faith, but let's stay in the family, they would say, no, it's not okay.
SPEAKER_03: We really don't have anything to do with each other because you didn't believe like I believe.
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm not changing that, and I'm not changing that either, so we're done.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, I think it's really, really tough.
SPEAKER_03: Really tough.
SPEAKER_10: I think for me, it it's the um you have to discern the objective, or if there even is an objective of the people who are causing divisions.
SPEAKER_10: Is it their objective to divide?
SPEAKER_10: Or are they do they legitimately have questions and feel differently?
SPEAKER_10: You see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_10: I do.
SPEAKER_10: Um, and I think that might speak to whether to avoid them.
SPEAKER_10: Is Paul getting at people that are just being divisive for the sake of being divisive?
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
SPEAKER_10: Or people who are really re-examining their faith and have legitimate doubts and questions.
SPEAKER_03: And I and I wonder about both scenarios.
SPEAKER_03: So I'll tell you, like, I'm intimately related to somebody who has this like tragic flaw of self-self-sabotage.
SPEAKER_03: So when somebody starts to grow close, they try to sabotage the situation to prove they're not worthy of it.
SPEAKER_03: And I don't think Paul is really interested in me.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what I don't know what Paul would have thought.
SPEAKER_03: I don't think God wants me to say, well, look, they just want to be devices and stay away.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, actually, I think kind of like what Richard's saying, people who are self-sabotagers need even more embrace.
SPEAKER_03: Because the truth is they're not doing that because they're evil, they're doing it because they're scared.
SPEAKER_03: They're actually worth being loved, which is really terrifying.
SPEAKER_03: Um, and when the community comes around them, that's when they may push the hardest and actually act down in ways that like seem the most evil but are the most inauthentic expressions of who they are.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is really strange stuff.
SPEAKER_03: Um and we could, I think we could really think hard about stepping outside of church business in parallel.
SPEAKER_03: We've got this national election, and and looking at how people handle that is really, really interesting to me.
SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't want to like over-pontificate about it, but I'd just share.
SPEAKER_03: I was reading John Wesley again recently, and John Wesley in 1784 wrote, everybody should A, vote for free.
SPEAKER_03: So we shouldn't be like, our boat shouldn't be for sale.
SPEAKER_03: Number two, we shouldn't speak any evil of the people we vote against.
SPEAKER_03: And number three, we should strive not to sharpen our spirit against people who don't vote like we do.
SPEAKER_03: That's really interesting, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03: Because we're firmly convinced when we cast our vote and we see somebody else vote, and how do we mix our belief that we're doing the right thing with living with somebody who's voting the wrong way?
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the problem with community.
SPEAKER_03: And part of it is there are people I know who just are pushing against the rails.
SPEAKER_03: But why are they doing that?
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know the answer to that.
SPEAKER_07: The other interesting part about this is when Paul talks about how we're supposed to respect the government.
SPEAKER_07: Then he doesn't say anything about civil disobedience.
SPEAKER_07: And I found out a little I couldn't come to curves with that.
SPEAKER_03: I can help with that, maybe.
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
SPEAKER_03: Because there's a difference between positional authority and earned authority.
SPEAKER_03: So I think it's okay to say I can respect the office of the president.
SPEAKER_03: I can respect the fact that people seem to need hierarchized authority structures.
SPEAKER_03: And I'll tell you, the Episcopal Church is very hierarchical.
SPEAKER_03: Uh we don't always operate that way, but on our basis we are.
SPEAKER_03: So I can respect the authority even when I disagree with my bishop.
SPEAKER_03: Uh but hopefully I have a relationship with my bishop or my president or my mayor where I can continue to respect that person even when I disagree about a position.
SPEAKER_03: And we all know, uh, and I think this is really, really true if you've been in the military ever, there is the difference between positional and earned authority, and you always respect the position even if somebody hasn't earned your authority.
SPEAKER_07: I'm thinking more about uh say Martin Luther King when he when he wants.
SPEAKER_03: And I think Martin Luther King's way of civil disobedience actually he had quite a bit of faith in the Constitution.
SPEAKER_03: So he really believed in the positional authority of the Constitution, so much so that um he thought it was critical to resist nonviolently.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
SPEAKER_03: And I think that actually comes from acceptance of positional authority, not defiance of it.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, and Gandhi.
SPEAKER_03: The same with Gandhi.
SPEAKER_03: So I think if you don't believe in positional authority, you have a revolution or you're an anarchist.
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, there's times revolution's appropriate, but how you do it, I think, is the real question ethically.
SPEAKER_03: I'm willing to talk because I've enjoyed the benefits of violent revolutions.
SPEAKER_08: I wonder, would you compare this also of this uh the church being embody to a family?
SPEAKER_08: Do you have the same obligations within that group to respect everybody?
SPEAKER_08: Because a lot of, you know, I'm just wondering.
SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, again, I think there's positional authority in families and there's earned authority, you know, and so like I can definitely have respect for like father figure, even if my father hasn't earned the relational authority.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03: And we live in that tension, then what do we do then when a positional authority tells us something that's not right?
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we do it.
SPEAKER_03: I don't always agree with how my tax dollars get spent, but I do pay my taxes.
SPEAKER_03: The alternative just doesn't seem very wise.
SPEAKER_03: However, if I there were a law that says I can't drink out of the same water fountain as somebody else, I might resist that law, although I would certainly know what's coming when I do that, or what may come.
SPEAKER_03: So to be bitter about those consequences would be silly, even if they're wrong.
SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean, it just would be uninformed.
SPEAKER_03: And ultimately what Martin Luther King Jr.
SPEAKER_03: chose to do is go ahead and suffer those consequences publicly, and in so doing, uh sort of galvanize the hearts of the United States against, hey, those consequences aren't just or right.
SPEAKER_03: But I think it's tense, you know, and and I'll tell you, bound reinforcement is always tense.
SPEAKER_03: I had somebody call me the other day on my cell phone to ask me when a funeral was.
SPEAKER_03: And fortunately, I've spoken to this person enough that I felt very far from saying, hey, are you having an emergency right now?
SPEAKER_03: No, do not call me on this number unless it's an emergency.
SPEAKER_03: Again, do not call me again.
SPEAKER_03: We don't call the chat on my cell phone.
SPEAKER_03: While you're on the line, yes, the funeral's next week, but don't call me again unless it's an emergency.
SPEAKER_03: And um, that may seem really tough, but it was right because I don't want to be called the chat by parishioners on my cell phone.
SPEAKER_03: It's just it's not fair to me or to you all.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's other ways to get I felt harsh because setting a boundary like that is hard, but it was the right boundary to set, and I they didn't do it in a mean way.
SPEAKER_03: I just said don't do this again.
SPEAKER_03: This I think is part of the tension in here.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, so this group is a microcosm of this larger group that's in this document that we're reading.
SPEAKER_03: Depending on how we read it, this is a microcosm of the whole earth.
SPEAKER_03: And how we deal with this is really important.
SPEAKER_03: And maybe it's okay to say, you know, he was talking about the word tolerance, and I kind of bristle with that.
SPEAKER_03: I didn't think tolerance is really the goal.
SPEAKER_03: I think the goal is respect.
SPEAKER_03: Tolerance is probably the minimum.
SPEAKER_03: Like if I can't respect you, I'll at least put up with you.
SPEAKER_03: The world would be a lot better place if we could tolerate each other.
SPEAKER_03: I I see those religious emblems on cars that spell out coexist, and I just think that's short-sighted.
SPEAKER_03: I really do.
SPEAKER_03: I think I think respect is the goal, not coexistence.
SPEAKER_03: Um, what does that mean?
SPEAKER_03: That means that people who are Muslim, like, I don't need to just say, like, hey, we all got our own way and glad you got your own way, but to have some deep respect for their ways of faith, even though they're not my own.
SPEAKER_03: And um, well, then why aren't I converting to them?
SPEAKER_03: Because they're not my own.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I that's I think the hard tension is to have genuine deep respect for somebody who's different from you without having to be converted.
SPEAKER_03: And um, and that's tricky.
SPEAKER_03: It's really tricky when you've differentiated yourself and your own group.
SPEAKER_03: Like I would tell you for me, it's easier to have respect for Muslims than it is to have for Christian fundamentalism because I came out of the latter, not the pro the former.
SPEAKER_10: I saw a good example of that at Mercy Tree last week.
SPEAKER_10: We have a client who is Hindu, and he does not join the prayer circle when we circle it to pray.
SPEAKER_10: And so another client said to him, and I think his intent was to be respectful and inclusive.
SPEAKER_10: Hey man, it's not about religion, it's about love.
SPEAKER_10: And the client replied to him, not to me.
SPEAKER_10: And he respected that.
SPEAKER_10: He said, Okay, good.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, so I thought that whole exchange was really great.
SPEAKER_10: I thought it was very respectful on both sides.
SPEAKER_03: It's this interesting thing to think about, like inclusivity, because that implies you're including somebody in something.
SPEAKER_03: So I think it's always the question is what are we including you in?
SPEAKER_03: And there's these notorious signs that say the Episcopal Church welcomes you.
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, I do think like it's a good welcome.
SPEAKER_03: But the question is, what are we welcoming you to do?
SPEAKER_03: Act like us, be yourself.
SPEAKER_03: And there's this tension that happens when I do these funerals that I talk about.
SPEAKER_03: Like I do funerals for people who have never been in the Episcopal Church before, and I call them tourist funerals.
SPEAKER_03: And I can tell you that tourists are always surprised about what a church funeral looks like.
SPEAKER_03: Like the first time I did one of these a few years ago, it was for a Baptist family.
SPEAKER_03: Mom was an Episcopalian, the family was there, I came in wearing the chasuble, and I heard an audible an audible gasp.
SPEAKER_03: Because they didn't know we were gonna look Catholic.
SPEAKER_03: They just had no idea, you know.
SPEAKER_03: And it was really important to include them.
SPEAKER_03: But at the end of the day, like you're you're a guest in our home, and we honor and respect you.
SPEAKER_03: But it is also our home that you're in, you know.
SPEAKER_03: So we tried to accommodate you within our house, and like how that gets played out is really interesting, you know.
SPEAKER_03: They wanted communion because mom would have wanted it, but none of them were gonna take it because, well, it sounded like a you know Catholic.
SPEAKER_03: So this is like this really interesting thing we do, you know, and like I'm doing a funeral this week for a family that had never been to this church, and uh, I sent them the bulletin, and they were like, Well, do we have to do all of those things that are in the bulletin?
SPEAKER_03: Only if you want to have the funeral here.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, like it's it's this interesting bit about like again, like we we welcome you and include you, but in what?
SPEAKER_03: You know, like like we don't, and I think that's that's part of what has to get worked out is hosting people is inviting them as they are, but inviting them to join you in your house.
SPEAKER_03: And it's different when we're in and when we're out, you know, because when we're in here, if you want to have a screen and a projector in the church, my answer is always gonna be no.
SPEAKER_03: This is not who we are.
SPEAKER_03: It would be dishonoring our home.
SPEAKER_03: And you know, if somebody wanted to come into your physical home and they wanted a squatty potty, it's gonna be hard for you to accommodate that, unless you have one of those.
SPEAKER_03: I I don't have one, and I'm not going to install one for my guests.
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03: Like I think I think this is real-world stuff, and I and I hope it's making sense to approach it.
SPEAKER_03: Like, this is just really, really complicated stuff.
SPEAKER_03: What's interesting is Paul saves us to the end.
SPEAKER_03: He's in all of this like theological stuff, and now he's saying here's where the rubber now meets the road, and this is the hardest part for us.
SPEAKER_03: And usually the churches I've been a part of get stuck in the theological stuff, and we just can't worry about anything, which means we can't do the real stuff.
SPEAKER_03: Case in point.
SPEAKER_03: Um, the very last thing Paul does, just going backward a little bit, is he does personal greetings.
SPEAKER_03: Phoebe's a deacon, not a deaconess.
SPEAKER_03: She's not a priestess, she's a deacon.
SPEAKER_03: There's no debate about that.
SPEAKER_03: Prisca and Aquila are apostles.
SPEAKER_03: A woman is more important than her husband because she comes first, and she's an apostle.
SPEAKER_03: She's not a nursery worker.
SPEAKER_03: Junia, that's a woman's name, is an apostle.
SPEAKER_03: But us biblical people, we were sure women couldn't be ministers, but two women are called apostles and one's called a deacon, which is like an order.
SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's this interesting thing.
SPEAKER_03: We say, well, no, that word didn't mean what you think it means, which is just an argument from convenience.
SPEAKER_03: The truth is the early church had women who were leading churches.
SPEAKER_03: So am I gonna say it's okay that your church doesn't ordain women?
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's hard for me to respect that position.
SPEAKER_03: I have to be honest.
SPEAKER_03: This is where the rubber meets the road, because that position is not defensible here.
SPEAKER_03: Not defensible.
SPEAKER_03: Um, even though in Timothy, Paul, not the Lord, Paul says women shouldn't be leading things.
SPEAKER_03: In Romans, women are leading things.
SPEAKER_03: So how do we work that out?
SPEAKER_09: I always just kind of felt like Paul didn't really mean that.
SPEAKER_09: Somebody else wrote it there.
SPEAKER_03: That's how our Yeah, I think it's a real interesting thing, and I I should probably be not over-sabotage you, but you know, there's this line in um in the Gospel of John, Jesus stands before Pilate, and Pilate says, Are you the king of the Jews?
SPEAKER_03: And Jesus says, Those are your words, not mine.
SPEAKER_03: But if uh if I were a king of this world, uh, you know, my people would be fighting for it, as it is my kingdom's not of this world, right?
SPEAKER_03: Uh oh, so you are a king?
SPEAKER_03: No, look, I just came to bear witness to the truth.
SPEAKER_03: And then Pilate says, What is truth?
SPEAKER_03: That's a really interesting question.
SPEAKER_03: And because I've been thinking about it for weeks, that question, um, I'm kind of maybe reading it in here, but I think it's a good frame because we live in this era of fake news, and the question is, well, what's truth?
SPEAKER_03: And we want, I think, so badly to hold on to truth as like a fact, like this thing is true.
SPEAKER_03: And I and maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't know that truth is about things as much as it is about orientation to life.
SPEAKER_03: So, like, I think when we're young, we want to hold on to a fact because that's something we can have.
SPEAKER_03: But I I'm actually relatively convinced that's inferior to opening ourselves to a position.
SPEAKER_03: So I don't even forgive me for saying this, I'm not always sure what's even factual, and I'm not even sure that necessarily matters.
SPEAKER_03: I think the greater question is how am I oriented to the world?
SPEAKER_03: Yesterday we did this Saints Day, Gregory of Nyssa.
SPEAKER_03: He said, um concepts create idols, only wonder really knows.
SPEAKER_03: People kill each other for idols, wonder brings us to our knees.
SPEAKER_03: Which is interesting to think about.
SPEAKER_03: Um I wonder about women in ministry, and I wonder about toleration versus respect, and I I wonder about even And as I look again at the political stage, but also the church stage, the raise me stage, is that we just aren't really saturated with idolatry.
SPEAKER_10: For me personally, I'm just saying that what I'm learning about myself is that it's pride.
SPEAKER_10: My need to know to be right.
SPEAKER_10: To know that I'm trying.
SPEAKER_10: And so what I've been latching on to this week, it may be different next week.
SPEAKER_10: But this week, what's really speaking to me is that I heard somebody else say it and I heard it out.
SPEAKER_10: Shared beliefs.
SPEAKER_10: I mean shared values over shared beliefs.
SPEAKER_03: I think that's fair.
SPEAKER_03: I do think if it's okay to talk about like a swimming analogy, you know, when we're thrashing around, it's really nice if we can have some anchors or some rest points or some buoys.
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's like the goal of grabbing on to facts because look, they don't sink.
SPEAKER_03: You can hold on to them.
SPEAKER_03: But I think the weird thing is that sometimes those buoys actually turn into anchors and they start to like make it where we can't go anywhere.
SPEAKER_03: And sometimes they start to pull us under the water.
SPEAKER_03: So I think the really question is, are anchors pulling us, holding us down, or are they lifting us up?
SPEAKER_03: And uh maybe the question is, is life supposed to be thrashing around, or is it supposed to be about trusting and floating?
SPEAKER_03: And uh and and I don't know, I go back and forth myself from one to the other, you know.
SPEAKER_03: And here I'm speaking really strongly, like to deny women ordination to me is like it's just wrong.
SPEAKER_03: It it's just you know, male power plays, and we can base it on whatever we think and call it truth.
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a really interesting thing to just one more comment about what is truth and about how we set these boundaries.
SPEAKER_03: Um, yesterday I went to my home, there's a there's a mayoral race here in SL Bay, and there's four candidates for like a thousand people, and I think you get$75 a month if you win, or something like that.
SPEAKER_03: And I've had these two flyers rolled up and put in my door, which by the way is against the law.
SPEAKER_03: Like you're not allowed to do that in the city to come put flyers in my door, and that's solicitation, you know.
SPEAKER_03: But but people are doing this, and I read one yesterday that said, like, hey, I really want you to vote for my friend, so and so.
SPEAKER_03: And I thought, oh, you know, like because this person's your friend doesn't mean they're qualified.
SPEAKER_03: But that's how we vote, and that's how our positions come.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, most of my positions come that way.
SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm comfortable with this person, so that's who I'm going to pick, or have some kind of attachment instead of really thinking about qualification.
SPEAKER_03: And to be honest, like when we do anything, when we buy a car, it's not like we're objective car buyers.
SPEAKER_03: We have some kind of brand association or some concept that an SUV will do this or a truck will do that, that may have no grounding in reality whatsoever.
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the interesting thing when we talk about judgment, is our judgment is just really skewed.
SPEAKER_03: Like, we'd really like to believe we're objective people, and we're not.
SPEAKER_03: We're not.
SPEAKER_03: So the question is like, I think what are our anchors in our subjectivity?
SPEAKER_03: And are they yanking us down or are they lifting us up?
SPEAKER_03: Maybe that's what truth's all about is like do your anchors pull you or do they do they lift you?
SPEAKER_03: But I'll tell you, I don't know what truth is.
SPEAKER_03: Objectively.
SPEAKER_03: That sounds strange, but I but I but I'm not sure I know.
SPEAKER_03: I I feel like I have more insight into like what roads I shouldn't go down.
SPEAKER_03: But I don't know that there's a clear path of do this, do this, do this, and then God will be happy with you.
SPEAKER_03: Because my my my faith seems to say God's already happy with me, even though I have a hard time believing that.
SPEAKER_06: Going back to that concept of, and I agree with you that respect is our goal rather than just coexisting.
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
SPEAKER_06: But I've found that in helping people develop respect for people who are different than them, themselves, coexisting is the first step.
SPEAKER_06: I uh developed and taught a spirituality and counseling course at UH Green.
SPEAKER_06: Um and in doing that, my most of my students, many of my students were fundamentalized Christians.
SPEAKER_06: And the first day of class was frightened to something.
SPEAKER_06: And so I there were a couple that said, I've got to drop your class.
SPEAKER_06: And I said, hang in here with me just a little bit.
SPEAKER_06: Just give me three more classes and then I'll sign your leave.
SPEAKER_06: Um the coexisting concept was necessary before I got them to the respect position.
SPEAKER_06: So it's a process that we have to go through of realizing that the other opposite belief doesn't have to be a threat to our personal belief.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: I think you're right, and and I think that's a really helpful um thing to what Paul's talking about.
SPEAKER_03: And the educational word is called scaffolding.
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
SPEAKER_03: So when we want to have a schematic change, that's like when we need to change our worldview, it's really difficult to just change a worldview.
SPEAKER_03: Usually we need a scaffolding to help us sort of grow that up.
SPEAKER_03: Um, and and the reason I think this is important is Paul talks about having the mind of Christ.
SPEAKER_03: He talks about be uh transformed by the renewing of your mind, and and this is a really helpful thing to hear since he's talking about Greek words.
SPEAKER_03: Um, the renewing of your mind is about meta noia, which is the Greek word for repentance.
SPEAKER_03: So meta, like in metaphysics, is a way of thinking that is beyond physical world, right?
SPEAKER_03: So just use a religious metaphor, like we've got our our two eyes that are sensory, and then we have our spiritual third eye.
SPEAKER_03: This is not just in Hinduism.
SPEAKER_03: If you ever look in the iconic tradition, like go look at the icons of Mary and Jesus we have in church, they have a third eye.
SPEAKER_03: It's faint, but it's but it's it's there.
SPEAKER_03: It's physically shaped like an eye.
SPEAKER_03: It's what sees the essence of things, not just the factuality of things.
SPEAKER_03: And then your noose is not just like your opinion, your noose is like your worldview.
SPEAKER_03: So when you repent, you get a way of viewing the world that is above and beyond the way you used to view the world.
SPEAKER_03: You don't switch Doritos or cleaning products, like you change the way you see the world.
SPEAKER_03: So when we talk about be transformed by the renewing of your mind, what Paul is saying is transformation comes from repentance, and it comes not from box uh checking, but it comes from fundamentally changing the way we see and interact with the world.
SPEAKER_03: And he says we have the mind of Christ, and he doesn't mean like the way of thinking, he means the worldview.
SPEAKER_03: Mind is like the schema.
SPEAKER_03: So I think, like you're saying, there's part of our job as disciples is to create opportunities that give us the scaffolding we need to adopt the worldview of God instead of resting in our own.
SPEAKER_03: And then that becomes a really good question about our faith practices.
SPEAKER_03: Are they pulling us up or are they holding us down, if that makes sense?
SPEAKER_03: Again, mind of God doesn't mean one mind, it means worldview.
SPEAKER_03: You know, and part of like I think the respect issue, the tolerance issue, and this happens in counseling, it happens, you know, for me when I was um working with um AA and NA people was oh, like I see your spirituality is actually helping you cope with this disease, even though it's radically different from mine.
SPEAKER_03: And that's wonderful.
SPEAKER_03: Because what if you had my spirituality, but you couldn't cope with this disease?
SPEAKER_03: Uh you wouldn't be better off, you'd be worse off.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_10: I think what's saying that goes right trying to get to not um to be respectful of the fact that other people are in a different place than you are otherwise, and I think that means you are not as strong as yours.
SPEAKER_10: And so don't do anything that would cause them to lose it completely or stumble, be discouraged, or you know, to do those big steps.
SPEAKER_10: I think is what you were saying.
SPEAKER_10: I think that's what Paul is saying too.
SPEAKER_10: That you know, whether you don't condemn somebody for eating meat, not eating meat, and be mindful of what you're doing in front of other people whose faith may be affected by watching your behavior.
SPEAKER_03: And and then there's this other bit, right, that Paul says is you know, everyone should be unconvinced in their own minds, don't let what you do be spoken of as evil, but don't put stumbling blocks in front of people.
SPEAKER_03: I have to tell you, as a young person, my church used that against me.
SPEAKER_03: Because if I was into something culturally or recreationally that could make somebody else stumble, I couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_03: So it was really bad that I decided I wanted to get my ears pierced because some people thought that was wrong, even though I didn't.
SPEAKER_03: I can't live that way, you know.
SPEAKER_03: So I'm really aware that it's a polarizing behavior for certain people.
SPEAKER_03: And life is too short.
SPEAKER_03: And I'm still trying to sort that out, you know.
SPEAKER_03: I'm still trying to sort that out.
SPEAKER_03: Like I struggle with whether or not I need to wear long sleeves to work when I come on Sundays or when I go up in front of the Symphony League.
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I do it as part of respect, but um on the other hand, like there's nothing wrong with the way I've chosen to treat my body, and so that's your problem, not mine, and then we live somewhere in the middle, you know?
SPEAKER_03: Um and this is a constant conversation that the church taught me to have, which meant like it's really hard for me to live freely and enjoy myself.
SPEAKER_03: When I make those choices, I'm fully aware people may not like them, and that takes some of the enjoyment out of it.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that makes sense what I'm telling you.
SPEAKER_03: Um, and maybe it'd be better, or I don't know if it'd be better, it'd just be different if I just didn't care.
SPEAKER_03: I meet these people who are not concerned with what other people think about their personal decisions, and I think, how freeing that must be.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know how to do that.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that makes sense what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03: I think that's part of this, I think that's part of this argument.
SPEAKER_03: Somebody comes to my door and they're Mormon or they're a fundamentalist and they want to hear what I think about Jesus and how do I treat them?
SPEAKER_03: Well depends on the day, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I say no soliciting.
SPEAKER_03: Well, we're not soliciting, we just want to tell you that that's soliciting.
SPEAKER_03: Thank you, have a good day.
SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, or do I try to take the time for somebody and actually open my heart to them knowing that like they may just hurt me again in ways that I don't want to be hurt?
SPEAKER_03: You know, like, oh, I'm a priest.
SPEAKER_03: That's not gonna get them off my porch.
SPEAKER_03: It's not.
SPEAKER_03: In fact, that's gonna make them double down.
SPEAKER_03: I know this because it happened to me more than once.
SPEAKER_03: Uh so you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03: Do I say, hey friend, you didn't even ask my name?
SPEAKER_03: And so, like, I appreciate your intention, but I would suggest you like meet people before you try and change their worldview and like make space for them.
SPEAKER_03: Hope you have a good day.
SPEAKER_03: You know, like I don't know how to do that because anytime, and I go back to this person calling me in my phone to like chat, anytime you set a boundary, you may make a stumbling block for them.
SPEAKER_03: But I think the other question is in worrying about making stumbling blocks for others, are you making them for yourself?
SPEAKER_03: And this is the thing I think is constantly like a juggling act.
SPEAKER_03: And I'm not a woman, but a lot of times, I'll tell you, I was in HEB one time and I had my short sleeves on and I had my collar on, and this man came up and I was really confused.
SPEAKER_03: Like, is that a fashion statement?
SPEAKER_03: What a fashion statement.
SPEAKER_03: No, it's my job.
SPEAKER_03: He was really confused.
SPEAKER_03: But Jenny, who you know, who worked for me here as our curate, she got that a lot.
SPEAKER_03: Because she was a woman wearing a collar.
SPEAKER_03: I only had it once.
SPEAKER_03: I was well, I guess I had it twice, but somebody asked me if I was making a fashion statement.
SPEAKER_03: She had that happen a lot.
SPEAKER_03: They just were confused, like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_03: You know?
SPEAKER_03: And their default was um, not what I'm used to, so you're doing it for some bad reason.
SPEAKER_01: You know, it goes this they have the courage to ask, I suppose, which is good, you know.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, how do you how do you put up, you know, how do you navigate that?
SPEAKER_07: You in putting up stumbling blocks.
SPEAKER_07: Perhaps you're not the one that's putting it up, but they're putting it out.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and how we honor people along the way is really, really hard.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think this thing, I agree with you.
SPEAKER_03: I think the stemming blocks are already there, but you sort of know that.
SPEAKER_03: So again, maybe it's not whether you factually you're involved, it's how you're oriented both to those blogs and to the people who you know will stumble with them.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know the answer to that.
SPEAKER_10: You mentioned before, and I struggle with this, but I try to remind myself the Jesuit practice of everything that somebody says to you, you try to take it the best way possible.
SPEAKER_10: Yes.
SPEAKER_10: It's hard.
SPEAKER_03: Again, like I'm convinced that that's true.
SPEAKER_03: It's not factual, but I'm convinced it's true.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03: And we were afraid of that spirituality because it was Catholic.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's how I grew up, but that is such a better way of living.
SPEAKER_03: You know, like I'm convinced it's better to live that way, even though I don't know how to do it.
SPEAKER_06: Um did not believe that women should teach.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, um, I found myself as a small group navigator and even as a couple of the church's decision was that um the male and the couple should do the teaching.
SPEAKER_06: Well, the male and this couple is not a teacher.
SPEAKER_06: You know, I am the teacher, yes, and so the teaching fell to me.
SPEAKER_06: I found myself on several occasions having to say that was the this I was worried about the stuff a little longer.
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
SPEAKER_06: So the position I took at the time was you know, be sure I want to be sure you understand I'm not teaching, I'm only facilitating discussion.
SPEAKER_06: Okay, I could do that, I did that for several years, and it got to be the point of it took too big a toll on me.
SPEAKER_06: It began to hurt me inside because I was not living authentically into my faith.
SPEAKER_06: And I was I was perpetuating the error of their interpretation.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so I got to a point where I couldn't do it anymore.
SPEAKER_06: I could not do that anymore.
SPEAKER_06: So I had to remove myself from that situation.
SPEAKER_06: So it there was that tension there of not wanting to be a stumbling block, but putting the stumbling block in my heart and my mind.
SPEAKER_03: It's interesting because Paul says in 15 that strength is the ability to put up with the weakness of others, but then I think there's this other point in which um sometimes strength is the ability to non-bitterly say non-bitterly say enough's enough.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06: And the non-bitter thing is was the hardest part about it.
SPEAKER_06: It's really hard.
SPEAKER_06: I had to set that aside in order to do to leave gracefully.
SPEAKER_03: I I think that's why I mentioned this bit about the phone call, is because um Brene Brown says that we should pick the discomfort of setting a boundary over the resentment that happens if we don't.
SPEAKER_03: And I I think even in a situation, for me, it is not uh people rarely judge my masculinity.
SPEAKER_03: Uh, I usually get ageist commentary, like, oh, you have a 19-year-old, like you're way too young for that.
SPEAKER_03: Um I am too young for that.
SPEAKER_03: I will never be old enough for that.
SPEAKER_03: I'm very convinced if they only knew the particulars of that life.
SPEAKER_03: Um but uh people assume I'm like 25.
SPEAKER_03: Uh and it helps a little bit when I have a little bit of white hair, but I think they think I put white down that my son gave me that.
SPEAKER_03: So how we do that in a not like anger way, because I think everybody in the room knows what it's like to be dismissed categorically, women more than men.
SPEAKER_03: I'm confident.
SPEAKER_03: You know, like my my wife tells me repeatedly when she's dealing with a male attorney, she doesn't just have to tell them what's right, she has to do it in such a way she doesn't hurt their ego.
SPEAKER_03: Which is crazy, you know.
SPEAKER_03: And I'm the primary caregiver, and if I bring my daughter to a church event, it's like really sweet.
SPEAKER_03: Look at that sweet dad.
SPEAKER_03: But if my wife brought our daughter to any event, she would be unprofessional because what's your kid doing here?
SPEAKER_03: You know, like it's this, yeah, it's this dialectic.
SPEAKER_03: And again, like the world isn't where it needs to be yet, and part of this is like we do things that are necessary, and and how do we live with it?
SPEAKER_03: And I really think this is what where the rubber kind of meets the road, again, that Paul's talking about.
SPEAKER_03: And we get to hear these things about humility, don't think more highly of yourself than you ought.
SPEAKER_03: But but I would say um there are people who need to hear the converse, which is don't think less of yourself than you ought.
SPEAKER_03: And um, I am going to say, I think in this country, many men I know should not think more highly of themselves than they ought.
SPEAKER_03: And many women I know should not think so little of themselves.
SPEAKER_03: It's not always like this.
SPEAKER_03: Um, I certainly know men and women on both sides of this that could do with a little more humility, because humility is not debasing yourself, it's just being who you are.
SPEAKER_03: And if you're if you're bright and qualified, you say I'm bright and qualified.
SPEAKER_03: Um but to overextend yourself is arrogance and to underdo yourself is really stemming from the same problem, which is trying to deal with like being enough.
SPEAKER_03: And this is what Brene Brown says, which is really interesting, that um a lot of us like to be less than, and we think, oh, the alternative is is like to be more than, and and she actually says the opposite of being not enough is just to be enough, not to be more.
SPEAKER_03: When you're worried about being more, you're actually doing the same problem as not being enough.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_03: Which I is in some ways counterintuitive because we talk about, oh, there's like abundance and there's scarcity, and and those really are the same thing.
SPEAKER_03: Enough is the platform.
SPEAKER_03: Like I'm enough.
SPEAKER_03: As a parent, you know, boy, I do want to be an abundant parent.
SPEAKER_03: Um, but when I that want really leads me to fear scarcity instead of looking back and saying, boy, you know, I don't know if I played that situation with my son or daughter right, but it was the best I could do, and it's enough.
SPEAKER_03: It just has to be enough.
SPEAKER_03: You know, my my parents gave me what they had.
SPEAKER_03: Maybe they could have given me more, except they couldn't.
SPEAKER_03: If they could have, then they would have.
SPEAKER_03: And that was the best they could do.
SPEAKER_03: So enough.
SPEAKER_10: I think what Army was saying too, if I understand it correctly, it kind of goes back to what you were saying that yes, it's great to be inclusive, but in our house this is how we do things.
SPEAKER_10: You can respect that or not.
SPEAKER_10: And so coming to that point to where you're just like, I choose not to.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
SPEAKER_10: And so you go.
SPEAKER_03: And I do and I dismiss anything.
SPEAKER_03: But I do think there's something really interesting to what you're saying as a progression.
SPEAKER_03: I I mean, to be honest, I meet people that'll flip that switch real fast.
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I can't do that.
SPEAKER_03: Click, click, click, click.
SPEAKER_03: And and maybe because it's not my own story, like in general, like I've tried really hard, and then I realized it was life taking and I had to leave, and um, maybe because.
SPEAKER_03: That's been part of my own journey with many things.
SPEAKER_03: I like have some appreciation for it because I really did try to accommodate other people, but I had to be able to accommodate myself as well.
SPEAKER_03: And like that point of discovery was really interesting.
SPEAKER_03: I think coming back to authority, if it's okay to say, like, I there's this interesting bit about being an authority because I wear this collar, you know, and people have different um understandings of what priests and clergy are supposed to do and be like, and to be honest, like lots of people would like to keep me at arm's length because that's comfortable, and I don't operate that way for better or worse, you know, and uh like it's become like one of my own personal missions to like openly outwardly fail.
SPEAKER_03: And that's hard for some people.
SPEAKER_03: It's actually hard for me sometimes, but I but I do think there's something really important about it.
SPEAKER_03: Um, so how do we try to to do that authority?
SPEAKER_03: You know, like I I in seminary I had two teachers that said you can never you can never be friends with your parishioners, and at a certain level, maybe that's true because at the end of the day, I'm the priest, but at another level, I think it depends on them, and it depends upon you.
SPEAKER_07: Um I when I when I ran the food service, I was friends with all my people.
SPEAKER_07: Because I don't believe standing apart is going to help you to manage the the program you have.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: And at the same time, I try not to go into business with family members or friends.
SPEAKER_03: I try not to.
SPEAKER_03: Like when we came here, there were two realtors in the church, and they were like, hey, we'll be your realtor, and I said, nope, nope, not doing that, and I'll never hire somebody to do construction here who goes to church here.
SPEAKER_03: Uh if they want to volunteer, that's great, but I'm not hiring you because it just gets weird, you know, and we have to like navigate that stuff, you know.
SPEAKER_03: Like that's it's it's hard.
SPEAKER_03: It's really hard.
SPEAKER_10: I liked what you said though about it depends on them.
SPEAKER_10: In terms of I agree with you too that you don't hold them yourself apart, but at the same time, um, it does depend on them.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
SPEAKER_10: So for me, I'm very specific and I call our clients clients, and I've received criticism for that.
SPEAKER_10: They're our friends.
SPEAKER_10: Well, for me personally, a friend means if that person calls me at two in the morning with a flat tire, if I'm their friend, I'm gonna go help them.
SPEAKER_10: But I don't hold, I don't, I have a boundary there when it comes to clients.
SPEAKER_10: I can't.
SPEAKER_10: I'm I can't be triple A.
SPEAKER_10: I can't.
SPEAKER_10: You see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_10: I do.
SPEAKER_10: So it depends on the person.
SPEAKER_10: I agree with you, it depends on the person, but unfortunately, I've had to make that distinction among our clients that their position in your life.
SPEAKER_00: And part of it, I think that your position in your life.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't even think it's always how we meet each other, because to be honest, I meet everybody at this church through church.
SPEAKER_03: But I can tell I have a shot of being friendly with people more genuinely if I see them not at church and we talk about not church.
SPEAKER_03: If I see them not at church and we're talking about church, they're parishioners.
SPEAKER_03: And that's all we're going to be, and that's alright.
SPEAKER_03: Like, well, I don't need to be friends with everybody.
SPEAKER_03: But if if we've got to always talk about church, and look, that is how we met, so there's natural gravity to that, um, then I then I, you know, it's tough.
SPEAKER_03: And like when I talk about my family business, it's one thing to like for me to tell you what I've chosen to tell you, it's another thing for people to ask and actually want to hear and not judge me.
SPEAKER_03: So I try to be real careful with that, um, because I can tell there's people who are like real disappointed.
SPEAKER_03: So, okay, that's that's just what we that's just what we do.
SPEAKER_03: Um, and all of this, I think, for what it's worth, comes back to Paul's desire to go to Spain.
SPEAKER_03: Because what we don't necessarily realize is Spain was the end of the world.
SPEAKER_03: And his his goal was to go to the end of the world.
SPEAKER_03: And what's great is that's why we have that shell in there.
SPEAKER_03: It comes from the shells, came from Spain, which people thought were the end of the world.
SPEAKER_03: So, in some ways, this is a really great analogy, is Paul's trying to get to the edges of the world we live in so that we can start to really enter into God's world.
SPEAKER_07: And it's very interesting.
SPEAKER_07: Uh, it's from the it it's it it it's it's not from the Bible, it's from the message.
SPEAKER_07: Those who never told him, they'll see him.
SPEAKER_07: Those who never heard of him, they'll get the message.
SPEAKER_07: And I thought that was a kind of a profound thing.
SPEAKER_03: And Paul says that from the very beginning, right, in chapter one.
SPEAKER_03: He says, look, you know, the creator has made is manifest in creation.
SPEAKER_03: So, and again, what is truth, it's your orientation, I suppose, right?
SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_03: I I'll tell you, I know people who are like fundamental atheists or agnostics who have more wonder about life than I have.
SPEAKER_03: And that seems that seems to be like truer.
SPEAKER_06: That we don't have it.
SPEAKER_03: Or it's an invitation, right?
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a really, really good thing, right?
SPEAKER_03: Is sometimes, and again, like I think when you get this narrative that God has made everything that it is, and everything is going to hell or heaven, it really just kind of takes wonder and curiosity off the table.
SPEAKER_03: Because you're so worried that you're not gonna be one of those people, you know?
SPEAKER_03: And like we have this whole religious tradition in the songs we sing, and the prayers we pray, and the way we talk to each other, that boy, like life sucks.
SPEAKER_03: So just make sure you go to heaven because that's what it's all about.
SPEAKER_03: But um again, that just takes wondering curiosity off the table, not just like in the world, but in other people, because really all we wonder is are you going to heaven or not?
SPEAKER_03: Instead of like, boy, like you seem to really be enjoying yourself, you must be sinning.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, like you know, like that's bizarre, but that's again like that's like one of my core suspicions that was given to me by my church.
SPEAKER_03: And and in no way is my church like awful, but that wasn't a great gift.
SPEAKER_03: You know, it wasn't a great gift.
SPEAKER_10: There are some atheists though that are just as fundamentalists.
SPEAKER_10: You see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I don't think that has anything to do with religion, and maybe it's worth telling you, like, I would have an easier time getting along with a reformed Jew than I would with a fundamentalist Christian.
SPEAKER_03: In fact, I I would have a lot easier time getting along with a um what I'd call like a progressive Muslim than I would with somebody who worships a glory a day.
SPEAKER_03: Because of the outlook we've come to.
SPEAKER_03: You know, like I don't want to, I hope this doesn't sound too weird, but I'm pretty sure Orthodox, like, like pushing away Orthodox Jews, my brother's one of those, and um fundamentalist Christians and members of Al-Qaeda have more in common with each other than they do with members of their own religious bandwidth.
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, it does.
SPEAKER_03: Patrick?
SPEAKER_04: Um somebody who's created things that don't exist in any other place, I found out to be a really good guide.
SPEAKER_04: Because if you doubt that what is all there can be, you go looking for things and what is gonna happen if I try this, or what are you know, what is this gonna look like if we do this?
SPEAKER_04: And that that's put me outside the box most of my life.
SPEAKER_04: But uh it's led me to all kinds of things that that you know people look at the work I've done and go, I don't I don't understand anything like that.
SPEAKER_04: And I think that means it's creative.
SPEAKER_08: For those that don't know, Patrick's image.
SPEAKER_03: Well, I think that's a really interesting thought.
SPEAKER_03: And my my wife was in this skit in the 90s in which they had one of the people had to be Wonder Woman.
SPEAKER_03: And I and I think there's a real difference.
SPEAKER_03: There's like the Wonder Woman She Row that beats back evil and has her own way, and in the skit, my wife was the Wonder Woman who said, I wonder about that.
SPEAKER_03: And and and and I wonder if we don't heroize or Shiroize the wrong kind of Wonder Woman.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: And I wonder actually if that isn't Paul's invitation as well.
SPEAKER_03: Because I am positive that's the only way we get to tolerance is if we make a little bit of room for I wonder.
SPEAKER_03: And certainly when we have wonder, that's when we end up with respect.
SPEAKER_03: Next week, we're going to read Galatians, which has very little wonder in it.
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to tell you, Paul wonders nothing about the Galatians.
SPEAKER_03: He's mostly just mad.
SPEAKER_03: So that'll be an interesting change of direction.