SPEAKER_00: Um maybe it's helpful to know this is called treeto Isaiah, which is just a way of saying third.
SPEAKER_00: So first Isaiah, Deutero Isaiah, Tredo Isaiah is how people call these.
SPEAKER_00: And again, the the diction is very different, the syntax is very different from the other two Isaiahs, uh, especially in Hebrew, but you probably noticed in English, even in translation, thematically this is really different material, right?
SPEAKER_00: So these are the these are the clues.
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, our our workbook, I think, tried to do a decent job of saying uh the the time setting here, um, but but there are some maybe really hopefully helpful things to draw in at the very beginning, if it's okay to do, unlike normal.
SPEAKER_00: Um, Jesus' first sermon in Luke comes from this book.
SPEAKER_00: The Spirit of the Lord has anointed me, right?
SPEAKER_00: And um to proclaim, uh release to the captives, incite to the blind, and declare the year of the Lord's favor.
SPEAKER_00: And he leaves out the next bit.
SPEAKER_00: He leaves out the next bit to declare the vengeance of our God.
SPEAKER_00: So it's helpful to hear that um, you know, in Luke, Jesus says that, and then he says, today the scriptures have been fulfilled in your hearing.
SPEAKER_00: And people get really mad, like they're gonna throw him off a cliff, but then they decide not to.
SPEAKER_00: We don't really know why, this doesn't.
SPEAKER_00: And people have really tried to conjecture why they're mad.
SPEAKER_00: One of the reasons is because he leaves out the verse, the vengeance of our God.
SPEAKER_00: He omits that.
SPEAKER_00: And it would be really weird to omit that because it's the second part of a verse.
SPEAKER_00: So I want to tell you something really interesting about verses.
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna close this door.
SPEAKER_00: We we may you may know this, it actually was an Anglican bishop, he was Catholic, but he was English, who came up with the whole chapter and verse system for our Bible.
SPEAKER_00: It just sort of was made up, and by the way, sometimes when you see it, um, you're like, why does this chapter start there?
SPEAKER_00: And and listen, it's because it was made up.
SPEAKER_00: That's true of our New Testament, not our Hebrew Bible, though.
SPEAKER_00: That's the interesting thing.
SPEAKER_00: So the numbers and the verses came from this guy, but what our Jewish brothers and sisters have always done is had verses, not chapters.
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna give you an example.
SPEAKER_00: If you read Genesis chapter 1, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and you get to chapter 2, and on the seventh day God rests.
SPEAKER_00: Well, that clearly belonged with chapter 1.
SPEAKER_00: That chapter 2 came from the English guy.
SPEAKER_00: What our Jewish brothers and sisters have always done is counted verses, and they've done something really interesting.
SPEAKER_00: They divided verses in half in terms of sense, not length or word count or anything like that.
SPEAKER_00: And the reason they've done this is to help them have fewer errors when they copy the scripture.
SPEAKER_00: So, what they would do, just to give you an example, is each verse is set apart, and let's pretend it has 15 words.
SPEAKER_00: Well, they they they write it and they go back, okay, 15 words here, 15 words here.
SPEAKER_00: So it was a check, okay, got all the words.
SPEAKER_00: If they accidentally got sleepy and written one word twice, then okay, they could go back and check, right?
SPEAKER_00: So this helped out.
SPEAKER_00: The division came in the middle, middle is funny.
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the division comes 15 words in to 17.
SPEAKER_00: So the the rabbis had put a point in each verse that's that splits it in terms of sense.
SPEAKER_00: To them, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Now sometimes you look at it and you say, that doesn't make sense to me.
SPEAKER_00: Now there's there's there's times when it's relatively clear.
SPEAKER_07: Um can you explain that for me?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want I want to explain it.
SPEAKER_00: Uh it it's it's not always it's not always clear.
SPEAKER_00: But let me just give you an example of this beautiful verse of Isaiah 60.
SPEAKER_00: Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
SPEAKER_00: Where do you think the split goes?
SPEAKER_00: Arise, shine, for your light is come, and the glory and that is where the split goes.
SPEAKER_00: How nice, right?
SPEAKER_00: And it and actually, a lot of times in poetry, the split comes sort of as the hinge, and the second is a way of expressing the first.
SPEAKER_00: And that's called parallelism.
SPEAKER_00: We talked about that before.
SPEAKER_00: Not always true though.
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the way it goes when you get two verses is idea A, idea B, and then you'll get B prime, A prime in the next one.
SPEAKER_00: That's called a chiasm, right?
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't rhyme, but it might say something like, the glory of the Lord upon the nations, all will gather at the Holy Hill.
SPEAKER_00: Right?
SPEAKER_00: So holy hill is about glory, all is about nations.
SPEAKER_00: Does it make sense?
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: Um times this seems arbitrary, like when you're reading Genesis, which is not poetic all the time, like it could be something about Abraham and his cousin, his nephew Lot, there's still one of these.
SPEAKER_00: It's called an Atna in Hebrew.
SPEAKER_00: Now, when we read the Psalms, when we read the Psalms in church, in general, we've left the Atna where the rabbis left it.
SPEAKER_00: The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.
SPEAKER_00: They divided it that way because that makes sense to them thematically.
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we look at where the rabbis had put it, and it tells us, even in a prose passage, how they've interpreted it historically.
SPEAKER_00: You won't know where the Atna is when you read prose because you're not reading it in Hebrew and we didn't leave that.
SPEAKER_00: I know this seemed like a long talk about possibly nothing, except that what's really bizarre about what happens when Jesus preaches his sermon and leaves out that other bit, is he leaves out the other bit.
SPEAKER_00: So he doesn't complete the thought to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor today that has been fulfilled in your presence.
SPEAKER_00: He leaves out this part, which is the vengeance of our God.
SPEAKER_00: Some scholars say this is why people are really mad because people knew that verse, and it's like Jesus left down God's vengeance.
SPEAKER_00: And they were very, very upset about that.
SPEAKER_00: But I want to suggest to you sometimes what happens, and we don't always get this, is that people knew their scripture so well that you could start a psalm and people were supposed to fill in the rest of it.
SPEAKER_00: Like when Jesus on the cross says, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
SPEAKER_00: That's the first verse of Psalm 22.
SPEAKER_00: So we could take it literally.
SPEAKER_00: God forsook Jesus, although that's not really possible.
SPEAKER_00: He felt forsaken.
SPEAKER_00: Another way to hear it though is that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22.
SPEAKER_00: And if you read the whole Psalm, it talks about our miserable condition, feeling abandoned, but how God comes and delivers.
SPEAKER_00: So we've got a lot of options.
SPEAKER_00: So when Jesus leaves this out, is he leaving it out on purpose or does he expect people to fill in the blank?
SPEAKER_00: And there's a really interesting thought about this that I haven't read it anywhere else.
SPEAKER_00: So I don't I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: It could be it could be a crazy thought.
SPEAKER_00: Um when the verse is being divided in sense, right, and it says the day of vengeance for our God to comfort all who mourn, it might actually redefine what vengeance is.
SPEAKER_00: So human vengeance is when somebody hurts us, we hurt them back.
SPEAKER_00: Right?
SPEAKER_00: It's always in terms of hurt being repaid.
SPEAKER_00: You you never get revenge on somebody giving you something nice.
SPEAKER_00: You you reciprocate.
SPEAKER_00: But you don't get revenge on it.
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00: Revenge is always about hurting somebody who hurt you.
SPEAKER_00: I think.
SPEAKER_08: So what if God's vengeance is hurting the hurt, the person who perpetrates?
SPEAKER_08: Is that what you're doing?
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm suggesting what if God's vengeance is comforting people who mourn?
SPEAKER_00: To proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.
SPEAKER_00: What if God's vengeance is forgiveness?
SPEAKER_06: Um, you're thinking that's what it says.
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think why people would be mad.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, why yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06: Blessed are ye who hunger first after righteousness and isn't that like vengeance?
SPEAKER_06: Because that's when you've been mistreated and things are just wrong and you want it fixed.
SPEAKER_00: Well, righteousness, righteousness really means like restorative justice.
SPEAKER_05: Yes, right.
SPEAKER_00: Not retributive justice.
SPEAKER_00: Retributive justice is really close to vengeance.
SPEAKER_00: Really close.
SPEAKER_00: But let's be honest.
SPEAKER_00: When you get revenge, you're not really even about making things even.
SPEAKER_00: You're about like hurting them worse.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's this really interesting question I'd ask is what kind of vengeance does God wreck?
SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
SPEAKER_06: It's gotta be the peaceable kingdom.
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what I'm wondering.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm actually wondering if that wouldn't make people more mad than leaving it out at all.
SPEAKER_08: And I could be wrong.
SPEAKER_08: The peaceable kingdom.
SPEAKER_08: Peace, yes, yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_08: Reconciliation.
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
SPEAKER_08: Well, but that wouldn't make people more mad.
SPEAKER_04: No, I don't like that.
SPEAKER_08: But people with a warlike.
SPEAKER_06: It's like, okay, everything's really nice.
SPEAKER_06: We're I've forgiven them, and we're, you know, we're very loving.
SPEAKER_06: And then, but something bad happens to it, well, that shows it.
SPEAKER_06: I mean, is it still there that you want revenge, even though you think you forgive them?
SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: And then I think the real question is feel is not the right word.
SPEAKER_00: Maybe do or hope.
SPEAKER_00: What does God feel?
SPEAKER_00: What does God do?
SPEAKER_00: What do we hope God does?
SPEAKER_06: You still are you really forgiving people, or are you just kind of hoping they get what's coming to tell them?
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I and I'm going to be really bad because boy, I think when a clergy member molests a child, there's hell to pay.
SPEAKER_00: But is that just what I want, or is that what God does?
SPEAKER_00: This is really tough because part of me thinks I want God to do that.
SPEAKER_00: But how is that different from the ways I've hurt other people?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is different, but is it different?
SPEAKER_00: It's these are shades of degree.
SPEAKER_00: And do I hope that God gets revenge on those people, or is God's revenge different from mine because it's about restoration and forgiveness?
SPEAKER_05: Vengeance is mine.
SPEAKER_00: This is really, really tough.
SPEAKER_00: Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.
SPEAKER_06: But what is his vengeance?
SPEAKER_00: But what is God's vengeance?
SPEAKER_06: Well, let's say, for example, you have this guy, Saul, and he changes into Paul.
SPEAKER_06: Of course, people still hated him because of things that he'd done.
SPEAKER_06: I mean, I don't know.
SPEAKER_06: Did he face something awful down the line that you have to pay back every job to do for everybody that he hurt?
SPEAKER_06: I'm sure you hurt a lot of people.
SPEAKER_06: So he's got karma coming.
SPEAKER_00: This I think is the hardest thing about paying people back evenly.
SPEAKER_00: How do you know you've really done that?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, listen, your brother hits you, you get the hitting back.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: But there's a difference in degree between a six-year-old and an eight-year-old hitting, right?
SPEAKER_00: So how do you know if you hit him back?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is, I think, curious thing about Merchant of Venice, right?
SPEAKER_00: You can have a pound of flesh, but you can have no blood.
SPEAKER_00: So, so how do you really know you got even instead of getting more?
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, if I'm the hurt person, I'll err on the side of getting more instead of getting even.
SPEAKER_00: That's really, really interesting to think through.
SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't mean there's no accountability, I don't mean that.
SPEAKER_00: But if vengeance is God, again, what kind of vengeance do we believe God has?
SPEAKER_03: Well, if his purpose is to reconcile everyone.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: That's that's the ultimate purpose.
SPEAKER_03: And so vengeance isn't something that he seeks because you can't hurt him.
SPEAKER_03: You can hurt others, but you can't hurt him physically or mentally or any other way.
SPEAKER_03: So if he's trying to reconcile everyone to him, he may get angry because you're not doing what he thinks.
SPEAKER_03: But he doesn't.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there have been a few instances where he is taking out the vengeance, the the Babylonian captivity is exactly one of them, but it was to help to purify people.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: It was it was his vengeance was always to help them, not to hurt them.
SPEAKER_00: So so this is gonna sound really heretical, because we haven't really decided that there's a purgatory.
SPEAKER_00: But if there's a heaven and a hell and there's not purgatory, I don't think I could believe in God.
SPEAKER_00: I just I don't think I I mean if hell is a real place and there's no purgatory to get that out of your system and go, I mean, I just don't know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: Because I I think that's part of what this is asking us, right?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, listen, I love things like hell to pay, I love that, but but when I stop and think about it again, it's this really interesting thing about should people be punished eternally for something they do that's not eternal?
SPEAKER_00: Hurting a child is pretty darn bad, but it's not eternal.
SPEAKER_00: It's I mean it isn't.
SPEAKER_00: And most people who hurt children would themselves hurt as children.
SPEAKER_00: So what does God's vengeance look like?
SPEAKER_00: You should have known better because it happened to you.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, our brains didn't even work like that.
SPEAKER_00: And here's a really tough category, if you didn't mind me saying, because this was in the news the other day.
SPEAKER_00: It was in the news.
SPEAKER_00: So I know these people who adopted a kid out of a Russian orphanage when the kid was like four.
SPEAKER_00: And uh boy, what a hell of a time they had.
SPEAKER_00: And I just can't think of a better word than that.
SPEAKER_00: Really, they did the best they could with this kid who turned out to be like unable to really attach to anybody, who was a master liar, but tricked people left and right because we just want to believe what people tell us.
SPEAKER_00: And when parents said that's not true, they said, You're weird parents.
SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean they sort of suffered that went to rehab, went to inpatient rehab, um, committed a violent crime, went to jail, came out of jail on parole.
SPEAKER_00: The only way kid was gonna get paroled was if uh parents took him back.
SPEAKER_00: Took them back at the age of 30.
SPEAKER_00: And um boy, like you talk about having PTSD as parents, and then you bring chaos back in your house.
SPEAKER_06: They took this child back.
SPEAKER_00: They did.
SPEAKER_00: They did, took child back, seemed like things were working, but boy, it's really hard to know.
SPEAKER_00: And and then turns out kids been going through cars at the age of 30 all summer long, and and of course, lying about it.
SPEAKER_00: And uh the kid didn't need to go through cars.
SPEAKER_00: The kid hated being in jail.
SPEAKER_00: So what's God's attention supply for that?
SPEAKER_00: Because the research says that kid is never going to have an alive.
SPEAKER_00: Can't kid's never gonna be able to attach to someone like you and I can't.
SPEAKER_00: Never going to be able.
SPEAKER_07: And they never make it.
SPEAKER_00: There's no rehab for them.
SPEAKER_00: They can fake it, they can pretend like the world, the linear, logical people, and they can pretend like people are not out to hurt them.
SPEAKER_00: But they have to pretend because they'll never actually believe God.
SPEAKER_08: And they do that to manipulate the system.
SPEAKER_00: They do manipulate or just to cope.
SPEAKER_07: Just to cope, because they then they don't know what's wrong with, I I guess.
SPEAKER_00: Because there's just survival.
SPEAKER_00: There's no right or wrong, there's survival.
SPEAKER_00: And that's true with Maslow's hierarchy, right?
SPEAKER_00: When you don't have your basic needs met, you can't think morally.
SPEAKER_00: Like more moral thinking is a luxury.
SPEAKER_00: That is so crazy in my brain.
SPEAKER_00: And that you can't rewire that, apparently.
SPEAKER_00: You can't.
SPEAKER_00: No, or no one's figured that out.
SPEAKER_00: There's no medicine, there's no therapy that seems to work, there's just coping.
SPEAKER_08: That's such a relief to hear because when I've said these exact same things based on science, based on experience of working with people like this, what I've gotten back from church people is your faith is not good enough.
SPEAKER_08: You don't believe in God, there's something wrong with you because you believe in God.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll tell you, this experience has made me think there's something wrong with God.
SPEAKER_00: I just I just it's really hard.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, well yeah.
SPEAKER_00: It's really hard.
SPEAKER_00: Because that those children have no chance in the rest of their life.
SPEAKER_00: They have no chance.
SPEAKER_00: And so I mean, maybe they have no chance.
SPEAKER_00: And what do we do with them?
SPEAKER_00: Um, and boy, like I'll just tell you, because I know these people and I know a little bit about this issue, what are they supposed to do?
SPEAKER_00: What are they supposed to do?
SPEAKER_00: You know, and and uh and for the kid too, like what's the kid supposed to do?
SPEAKER_00: Because it's supposed to is break down.
SPEAKER_00: So I and I I'm doing in a really extreme uh case because I read about it yesterday and and because I think this is about extreme cases.
SPEAKER_00: I Isaiah's writing to people that are trying to figure out their extreme case.
SPEAKER_00: So I think thinking about extremities is really, really interesting.
SPEAKER_00: And again, in a situation like I described, what is God's vengeance?
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, and you're right about this because when we read it together, talked about it, geez, if that happened to you, that that would be so awful if you had nothing.
SPEAKER_07: Nobody you know going back to a place that didn't want you there, yes.
SPEAKER_07: Uh that nobody that you've never even been to.
SPEAKER_00: And you've been told it's great and it's not.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03: It's just like, can you imagine if reconciliation is God then I guess we're gonna think about it.
SPEAKER_03: And if when we pass away, supposedly we go to heaven at some point that we come down here.
SPEAKER_03: But if you don't if you don't recognize somebody else, and you're just up there and if if you don't if you don't have any recognition of anybody else that you love or you've been able to be reconciled, but if you don't see those other people up there, then what would be the purpose of that?
SPEAKER_00: So I wonder if, and I don't know what it looks like, I wonder, I I mean I really I think because we got to see it again this time, right?
SPEAKER_00: Is is when uh the the the the wolf and the lamb are nourished together.
SPEAKER_03: But but when the wolf and the lamb recognize each other and say, we we are now friends.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00: I mean it's I mean maybe maybe this is an interesting thing.
SPEAKER_00: It's not maybe a Puzzle we figure out, I think the question is do we hope so?
SPEAKER_00: I'm divided each day on whether I hope that or not, because there's people I don't because I want them to have hell to pay.
SPEAKER_00: But then I stop, if I stop and think about it, right?
SPEAKER_00: Hell to pay isn't really even fair, so why do I you know so why do I want that?
SPEAKER_00: Like why am I hoping that?
SPEAKER_04: Yes, but is it the the worry of going to hell is that you'll never see the glory of God.
SPEAKER_04: You know, is it the whole idea of believing in God that you want to be able to experience the joy of being with God?
SPEAKER_04: There's gotta be some joy.
SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad you said that, because I I'm gonna tell you, we talk about joy a lot, and I think we don't get it very well.
SPEAKER_00: And and and I I was at clergy conference and there was this poet who talked about joy.
SPEAKER_00: Did I tell you the story already?
unknown: No.
SPEAKER_07: No.
SPEAKER_00: Poet was an interesting poet.
SPEAKER_00: And um Poet started out, Poet has edited a book, edited a book about joy poems.
SPEAKER_00: There's a hundred joy poems in there, and some of them are really something, and some of them are like, well, I don't get it.
SPEAKER_00: Some some poetry I just don't get, I'm just gonna be honest with you.
SPEAKER_00: And and Poet started by talking about this lady who is a poet laureate, who said, and I'm summarizing what he said, she's had about four or five experiences of joy in her life.
SPEAKER_00: And one of them was when she was heavily on drugs, so she's not sure it counts because she came down from that and is really, really tough.
SPEAKER_00: And she said between happiness and joy, or comfort, material, physical comfort and joy, she might rather have the comfort because joy exposes what she's missing in the rest of her life.
SPEAKER_00: So I asked the poet about that.
SPEAKER_00: That was very intriguing for me.
SPEAKER_00: And um he said, Well, I completely disagree with her because like I just can't get enough joy.
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, uh internally, I think I know exactly what she's saying, because joy points out how paper thin most of our normal life is.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, real joy is like in some ways exposing.
SPEAKER_00: Like it's intoxicating and it's exposing.
SPEAKER_00: And this is gonna sound really strange, because I have these moments of joy with my kid where I see with one of my kids, where the world is like such a big place, like the world is a better place with my daughter.
SPEAKER_00: Like if something happened to her, the world would be a darker place.
SPEAKER_00: I actually believe that.
SPEAKER_00: I really believe that.
SPEAKER_07: I believe that about my children.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: And when the when I gave birth to my oldest daughter, and she's she's 56.
SPEAKER_07: And I was by the way, that was not great as joy.
SPEAKER_07: It was like that.
SPEAKER_08: I've been working with a man over months, a long month, who experienced a tremendous joy of coming to faith, that euphoria.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_08: And now that it has settled down, yeah, he he holds that as the the criteria.
SPEAKER_08: And so this comfort, the normal life, seems so inferior in his mind to that, that there's there's what's wrong with me, what's wrong with my faith, you know, why can't I get that back?
SPEAKER_08: So that goes along with what you were saying.
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think I've I've found in these moments where I look it's gonna sound really strange, but I think these moments of being absolutely present with my kid, and I suppose to pick one, is very joyful, and and the and then the bandwidth of the world is really wide.
SPEAKER_00: And it's almost so wide that I I I I tremble to hold on to it.
SPEAKER_00: Um I had somebody come in, this is really interesting.
SPEAKER_00: I probably do confession once a year.
SPEAKER_00: We do this rite of confession in the Episcopal Church.
SPEAKER_00: Most people don't even think we do that.
SPEAKER_00: We do it.
SPEAKER_00: We do it face to face, and it's really called reconciliation.
SPEAKER_00: It's not what we call confession.
SPEAKER_00: This person was really interesting because they combined it with their fifth step and their sobriety course.
SPEAKER_00: And um, what the person said that was really interesting is that the the twelve steps is really not even about alcohol or drug addiction, it's really about being present.
SPEAKER_00: And they said that joy must be these moments in which we're actually just present.
SPEAKER_00: And that's an interesting thing.
SPEAKER_00: Present in ourselves and in one another.
SPEAKER_08: Not worrying about the future or being shameful about the past.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and maybe just really delighting in the other person for who they are, or ourselves for who we are.
SPEAKER_00: And I think those are usually a really short Martin Buber wrote a whole book about this called I and Thou, how those moments are really tend to be short, and sometimes they even surprise us.
SPEAKER_00: Like we can cultivate being open to them, but we can't control them happening.
SPEAKER_00: And the moment we think like, oh, I'm joyful now, is the minute it's over because we've wrapped something around it.
SPEAKER_00: So it's like in some ways very effervescent and and defies logic.
SPEAKER_00: I know how to be happy, I ignore that, kind of.
SPEAKER_00: I struggle actually with that one too.
SPEAKER_00: But but um it's just this really interesting, interesting thought about being present.
SPEAKER_00: And so, what if the way that God actually gets revenge is to be just really present and then curious for how we are?
SPEAKER_00: And what if that's the way God gets revenge at the end of time is that God invites us into that?
SPEAKER_07: Invites us into the the revenge and into the joyful revenge.
SPEAKER_00: Which I'm undoing the word revenge.
SPEAKER_00: The way God gets even is with joy.
SPEAKER_07: Oh okay, yeah, I uh does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00: I know I'm I'm I'm putting words together that don't go together.
SPEAKER_00: Well, well, it's it's but I think the prophet did that.
SPEAKER_07: Like when you you said the reconciliation, as a Catholic, we I I say reconciliation, I don't say profession, and I and I don't go, you know, like and and frankly, when you do the reconciliation prayer in the service, in the service, because maybe because I've been so ingrained from being raised Catholic about reconciliation, I take it very seriously.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you, I had somebody, this I think is one of those joy things.
SPEAKER_00: I had somebody, I mentioned this story that I just told you about doing this this step.
SPEAKER_00: And somebody said, We don't do that in the Episcopal Church, and he said, No, we do.
SPEAKER_00: And uh and we call it reconciliation, and the person said, Well, my therapist said I've only done one thing and like I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, but here's the difference between me and your therapist.
SPEAKER_00: I get to say God absolves you of that.
SPEAKER_00: Not like, hey, you put that behind you.
SPEAKER_00: Like, I get to say God is finished with that.
SPEAKER_00: Because uh, boy, it's very rare that I've thought in my life, I am really gonna be complicit with the devil, and I want to burn every bridge I can because I hate the world.
SPEAKER_00: Even in my worst thinking, I was not thinking I'm gonna be Satan incarnate and do evil.
SPEAKER_00: I just was really mad at not thinking well.
SPEAKER_00: Or even it seemed like a really good idea at the time.
SPEAKER_00: Five minutes later it didn't seem like such a great idea.
SPEAKER_00: But very rarely have I thought, I just want to be evil.
SPEAKER_00: So I said this to the person.
SPEAKER_00: This person said, Well, I've done that once.
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, then here's the great news, right?
SPEAKER_00: Is that like this there's this thing where you get to hear somebody say, like, God's finished with that.
SPEAKER_00: Person said, Well, I think I would do better going to a box where I didn't have to see you.
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is part of the clergy struggle.
SPEAKER_00: It's really, really interesting.
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, back in the oh, even 30 years ago, father knew best.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we we we were uniforms and we weren't people, and I get how that can be helpful to us.
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm just gonna tell you, like, I'm I'm not necessarily a great person.
SPEAKER_00: Uh I've got some strengths.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I fought off the handle really quickly, and I can be really petty.
SPEAKER_00: I have a hard time accepting gifts and like letting people love me.
SPEAKER_00: So look, I think I'm a regular person, and um you you know what's really interesting is this person I was talking to is a parishioner, but like I think kind of a friend, too.
SPEAKER_00: And so this person was saying, I think, not directly, but indirectly, like, I don't know if I could tell somebody who knows me that I've done these things.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's exactly the point.
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: And then what would be important for me is to not have it a mystery who's talked to me, because we sat full on the face, and me not to treat them any different unless I treat them better.
SPEAKER_00: And I think we're afraid somebody can't do that.
SPEAKER_00: And that's where it takes like a real priest to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_07: But reconcili well, I I think reconciliation between two people in very public.
SPEAKER_07: When well, and often you have a counselor between you helping you facilitate that.
SPEAKER_07: Um that that's reconciliation if it's done honestly and straightforwardly, and and but then you have to go back inside yourself and be able to deal with it yourself.
SPEAKER_00: It's more work than not doing it.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's harder than not doing it.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's why we had this shirt that says love is a hell of a lot of work, and we can do more together.
SPEAKER_00: Because we can individually, I don't think, can even sustain this work.
SPEAKER_00: Like we need a community to make reconciliation possible.
SPEAKER_00: And and this is a really interesting thing about what the prophet does.
SPEAKER_00: Who's in the community?
SPEAKER_00: Now, I didn't want to be offensive, but it's not me, it's Isaiah.
SPEAKER_00: So if Isaiah offends you, that's fine.
SPEAKER_00: Who's in?
SPEAKER_00: Well, people who have had modifications to their genitals.
SPEAKER_00: We don't really have eunuchs nowadays, but we have transgender folks.
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, they're in.
SPEAKER_00: Well, no, because eunuchs that was done to them, and transgender people choose that.
SPEAKER_00: I just don't think you can read this seriously and exclude transgender people, whatever you think about that.
SPEAKER_00: I just don't think you can do it.
SPEAKER_00: Um, slaves.
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
SPEAKER_00: Uh eunuchs had earrings.
SPEAKER_00: So if you're against men with earrings, sorry, you're just not gonna like this profit, because that's the deal.
SPEAKER_00: Who else is then?
SPEAKER_00: Foreigners.
SPEAKER_00: Who are the foreigners?
SPEAKER_00: Anyone different than us.
SPEAKER_00: Anybody different from us.
SPEAKER_00: Anybody different.
SPEAKER_00: Wiccans are foreigners.
SPEAKER_03: What what oh what I was kind of kind of as I read that, and I the poet says if they accept the Torah, then they're all in.
SPEAKER_03: And you know, and I know that the people coming back from Babylon and the people that were already there butted heads about it.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_03: And also, you know, the temple wasn't the most important thing anymore.
SPEAKER_03: It was the Torah.
SPEAKER_00: Because there was no temple.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: And so what I'm thinking about, as I think about you know, when Christ kind of comes along, or when Mohammed comes along, how do they fit into the picture if they don't accept the Torah as the basis of life?
SPEAKER_00: Well, see, the wonderful thing about both of those individuals is essentially what they try to guide people into, is a better understanding of the Torah.
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: You know, if we think Jesus came to change the Torah, we didn't read Matthew, because I didn't come to change a jot or a tittle.
SPEAKER_00: What he came to say is how do you observe the spirit of the law and not get lost in its letter?
SPEAKER_00: I that's what I believe.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, right?
SPEAKER_00: Because Jesus wasn't a Christian at the time, he was Jewish.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is often lost on us.
SPEAKER_05: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And and and I think it's helpful to hear, Jesus had a hard time with foreign people too.
SPEAKER_00: He was amazed the Samaritan came back.
SPEAKER_00: He says, What?
SPEAKER_00: Didn't I heal Tinnyu?
SPEAKER_00: And only the Samaritan came out, and we could hear him saying, Oh, he just make an example.
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, the guy was a human being, and he was raised, sorry, to be culturally biased.
SPEAKER_00: I choose to believe that because, boy, there's hope for me.
SPEAKER_00: There's this Syriophoenician woman that says, My daughter's sick, and he says, Look, I don't give children's food and give it to dogs, to female dogs.
SPEAKER_00: We have a word for female dogs.
SPEAKER_00: It's not nice.
SPEAKER_00: And it's not really a one that a man should ever use toward a woman.
SPEAKER_00: I believe.
SPEAKER_00: If women call themselves that, then that's up to them.
SPEAKER_00: But I can never call the woman that because it's so laden with baggage, right?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's tough.
SPEAKER_00: And Jesus calls her that.
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I mean he does.
SPEAKER_00: He calls her that.
SPEAKER_00: And and she's like, yeah, even bitches get some crumbs.
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, oh, well, you're right.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you know, like, I choose to do this doing that he learns from her.
SPEAKER_08: And that shows his humanity.
SPEAKER_08: And it shows he's able to shift his thinking.
SPEAKER_06: I I think he may have been doing that to show the rest of us more than that, that actually he believed that maybe that he was just saying, you know, no, we're going to be compassionate toward everybody.
SPEAKER_06: See?
SPEAKER_00: Well, see, either whatever we think about what's going on internally, he encounters a stereotype and leaves with a human being.
SPEAKER_00: And that means like we have that opportunity, and that's a higher way.
SPEAKER_00: Now, whether he did it for our benefit or it was authentic, either way, it's for our benefit to do it.
SPEAKER_00: And in that sense, Jesus is doing just what Isaiah did.
SPEAKER_00: Saying, like, listen, you guys are thinking that there's this old ways to be kept.
SPEAKER_00: That's fine as long as you realize everybody's invited into those ways.
SPEAKER_00: And this becomes this really interesting thing.
SPEAKER_00: We use the word conservative and liberal, and I don't think we use it always really well, because the question is, what are we conserving?
SPEAKER_00: As conservatives, the question is, what are we conserving?
SPEAKER_00: And and and I think that's the invitation, right?
SPEAKER_00: Is um and notice it's it's it's being pushed down that there's a there's a permeable boundary in terms of the way we choose to order our lives, but it's always it's always able to be entered.
SPEAKER_00: And it's not even that you have to be like us in all the ways that we often think.
SPEAKER_00: Because if you're if you're Jewish and your genitals are affected in any way, you can't go into the temple, period.
SPEAKER_00: Now I know there's no temple, but when you read this, the temple is like God's presence and it's all around.
SPEAKER_00: So the genital crushed people get to go too.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's sort of by extension what he's saying.
SPEAKER_07: Well, even at his death, at Jesus' death, didn't he, is it accurate that he turned to the man who was on the cross with him and he said to today or tonight or whatever, you'll be with with me as in the nice in my father's paradise or in paradise, which means in the nice garden.
SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting.
SPEAKER_00: One wonders what exactly he meant.
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, but Jesus ends up in paradise.
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's a tomb.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: But but well.
SPEAKER_07: I hadn't thought about that either because because I was thinking past.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_00: Because we because we read the Bible so dang anachronistically and much to our detriment.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've told you before, when when Jesus was around, there wasn't this fully developed doctrine of heaven and hell like we think.
SPEAKER_00: There just wasn't.
SPEAKER_00: So so paradise just means an ice garden, and um that's where there were some tombs.
SPEAKER_00: And and in some sense, it's really interesting to say whatever however worthy enough, however unworthy you feel, at the end of the day, we're gonna be together.
SPEAKER_00: Because we're both gonna be dead.
SPEAKER_00: It's really that's an interesting thought.
SPEAKER_00: By the way, I I no, I actually think it's really encouraging to be desired if you were hanging from a cross.
SPEAKER_00: That's fair, and then I think we can hear this thought like, hey, I'm not worthy and I'm worthy to die, and whatever you think about worthiness at the end of the day, like God's answer is to just go ahead and die alongside us.
SPEAKER_07: I I will say, Rather, having been raised in early Catholic, where we go to conf Catholic school, went to confession once a month and all that stuff, stand in line, stand in line, uh, or once a week, sometimes once a week, stand in line.
SPEAKER_07: And and I'm sure the priest, I mean the priest sat there and listened to gosh knows what, all kinds of silly things that these kids were just saying one after another.
SPEAKER_07: But the fact that he would there was this human being who was supposedly, we thought, blessed by the Catholic Church to forgive our sins.
SPEAKER_07: It was, huh, you just walked out of there.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but if you went and redid that sin, yeah, we're not good.
SPEAKER_07: This is where I think.
SPEAKER_00: But see, and this is where I think we got confession wrong.
SPEAKER_00: And I think the way reconciliation really works is it's not it's not just about moral transgressions we've done, it's about even things that have been done to us that are separating us, sorry, from joy.
SPEAKER_00: So let me, I just want to tell you, as a parent, I make a ton of decisions about my kids, and sometimes I think, God, what if I had just done that instead?
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: And talk about a way of separating me from joy.
SPEAKER_00: I didn't do anything wrong, but I'm worried.
SPEAKER_00: Reconciliation's for that.
SPEAKER_00: There's things sometimes I can't get over, and I was the innocent party.
SPEAKER_00: Reconciliation is for that.
SPEAKER_00: And if we just think it's about right and wrong, and God's like Santa Claus, and whatever, you know, is on the naughty list that you don't confess, then you know, calling your stocking forever.
SPEAKER_00: I I think we got it all wrong.
SPEAKER_07: That's a heavy, that's a heavy thought to say, though.
SPEAKER_07: I mean it's really hard, but we all do that, I think.
SPEAKER_07: But we think, you know, I think this is, I think, the I must have done something.
SPEAKER_07: I did something.
SPEAKER_00: This is the hard part about the prophets, like this prophet.
SPEAKER_00: I think he's right about what God's vengeance is like and how do I live into that?
SPEAKER_00: It's like really that's the hard thing.
SPEAKER_00: But but I but I think what we don't even usually do is afford ourselves to stretch our imagination to think that God's ways are so much greater than our own that we just have decided God is like us.
SPEAKER_00: So I think these this guy is trying to say, God's ways are so unlike ours.
SPEAKER_00: And you know, imagine to people who are having a hard time, arise, shine, your light is come, the glory of the Lord will rise over you.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, how do we make that authentic?
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean with what we do, but how do we experience that authentically?
SPEAKER_00: That's a really interesting goal in our spiritual life.
SPEAKER_00: Development.
SPEAKER_00: City gates are meant to keep people out.
SPEAKER_00: They're not meant to be open all the time, right?
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like God doesn't want us to welcome people to come to our church.
SPEAKER_00: God insists we invite people.
SPEAKER_00: Because welcome and invitation are really different things.
SPEAKER_00: Just like toleration and respect are different things.
SPEAKER_00: I wish it said the Episcopal Church invites you.
SPEAKER_00: And then we have to decide to do what?
SPEAKER_00: To be like we are, to be yourself.
SPEAKER_00: We're still trying to work this out.
SPEAKER_07: And every church, I assume in every church, every priest, every pastor, I would think it's human humanity.
SPEAKER_07: I think the same thing.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think, and this I think is where the prophet becomes really interesting because I do think we have these thoughts about what we're supposed to conserve.
SPEAKER_00: And I really think that's a good word here.
SPEAKER_00: What are we supposed to conserve?
SPEAKER_08: I really agree with that's what every priest and every church should.
SPEAKER_08: My experience is that so many churches draw boxes, and we are the chosen to whoever we are in that congregation.
SPEAKER_08: We are the chosen ones, and everybody else is and I I I think it's really hard because it hurts my heart too, but uh but this is where I think that word sin becomes so important.
SPEAKER_00: I'm so settled in it, it's really hard for me to get completely out of the box myself.
SPEAKER_00: Because I'll tell you, right?
SPEAKER_00: When people use uh the scriptures to be misogynist, I don't just feel sorry for them.
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I I don't like them.
SPEAKER_00: And it's really hard for me.
SPEAKER_00: And and so, like, there is this interesting thing called liberal judgmentalism, and uh boy, it's tough.
SPEAKER_08: I had trouble with that last week.
SPEAKER_08: I encountered someone who was extremely judgmental, and I went home and I was angry at that person rather than being angry about that thought process.
SPEAKER_08: Yes, and so I had to really work on my heart during the week to let go and believe that that person was doing the best that that person could do with what they had with what they had.
SPEAKER_08: And so it's so hard.
SPEAKER_00: It's so hard, and I'll tell you, weighs on me.
SPEAKER_00: I I this is an interesting thing.
SPEAKER_00: My wife is not a churchgoer, I've been very public at this, and so is she.
SPEAKER_00: In fact, when they called us, she made it very clear that they were calling one of us, that they were calling just me, actually, not us.
SPEAKER_00: And so um there's this tough bit, right?
SPEAKER_00: Because neither one of us have really experienced the kind of community that church offers outside of church.
SPEAKER_00: So it's this woefully broken thing, and yet it's like the most hopeful thing that there is at the same time.
SPEAKER_00: And that's just really hard.
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I think it would not be, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to sound really dreary, but there's some days where I think, you know, I'm just gonna pack this in.
SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna be done with this because boy, like we just love to go backwards sometimes.
SPEAKER_00: I just we love to go backwards and be dumb, judgmental, crazy people.
SPEAKER_07: And um okay, I've got I've gotta say something.
SPEAKER_07: I please do.
SPEAKER_07: But the day that we were you were in there and they were doing the acrobats and all that, you and your wife were sitting next to each other.
SPEAKER_07: Okay, and when he they asked for you to stand up, she was so and I was standing, just happened to be in a position where I could see.
SPEAKER_07: She seemed so proud of you.
SPEAKER_07: She put her arm around you, you stood up, and then and then you you were playing with her hair.
SPEAKER_07: It was this this thought that I don't know how I didn't know that about the fact that she doesn't act as an I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: But the way you two were, like, was so loving and supportive.
SPEAKER_07: So the same effect on me, Grassian.
SPEAKER_00: I said, but do you know but do you know why it's becomes really difficult?
SPEAKER_00: Not only to like turn this into like ugly church business, but you know, actually my wife's not really sure about her spirituality.
SPEAKER_00: In general, she's pretty supportive of what I do.
SPEAKER_00: Like she believes in the job and um she thinks in general, like like the thoughts and the conversation that we have are like life-giving and helpful.
SPEAKER_00: But where the rubber meets the road, right, is that if she comes to church here as my spouse, first of all, she's not herself.
SPEAKER_00: She's my spouse.
SPEAKER_00: So she doesn't get to be herself.
SPEAKER_00: Second of all, and it's happened exactly once here, if I do something that somebody doesn't like, um, it's happened really only once.
SPEAKER_00: Somebody was really dirty and really kind of nasty, and wrote a letter that was secretly disseminated that included like not only how I made the wrong decision, but how I was a bad parent.
SPEAKER_00: And my wife said, See, that's why I can't go there, because that letter's about me.
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's this tough thing.
SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't mean she's right, but part of because it's not like you're absolutely right or wrong, communities are messy places.
SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to say.
SPEAKER_00: And and how we we we we deal with the mess is is tough.
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we'll hop over a hurdle that was relatively high, and we do that together, and then here's this other low, and we're like, we can't do that one.
SPEAKER_00: It's like well but but but look how far we've come.
SPEAKER_00: Like, why would we not just and it's it's it's tough.
SPEAKER_00: And again, I know not to be judgmental, but when these Jehovah Witnesses came to my house last week and they said, Does God cause suffering?
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Listen, I'm a priest, like I'm really comfortable with my answer.
SPEAKER_00: They're like, Well, we want to hear it.
SPEAKER_00: And no, they did not want to hear my answer, they wanted to give me theirs.
SPEAKER_00: And I I just I didn't I wanted to be polite and I wanted them to leave, and I don't know how to do that all the time.
SPEAKER_00: I I I probably should have said, Listen, um, I don't even know that I'm grateful for what you're doing, but would you just go?
SPEAKER_00: Just would you go?
SPEAKER_07: But that just makes you whole human.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: You know, and I you know, I feel kind of the same way, you know, with when you get these phone calls at home, and you know someone, you know, you know, working their behind off, and you just hang up on them and you say, Oh, my no.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I've I try to be polite to them, and sometimes they just won't take that.
SPEAKER_00: You know, or I'll say, could you remove me from your call list and they just hang up?
SPEAKER_00: And I I have a hard time with that.
SPEAKER_00: Um, they usually say, How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_00: And I say, I I will be doing a lot better if you will not hang up because I'm gonna ask you to do something really important to me.
SPEAKER_00: Now, listen, I don't even know that it helps because I'm getting more calls than less.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I do think that's a great question, right?
SPEAKER_00: And we can be really mad at the person on the phone.
SPEAKER_00: I remember one time I I got a runaround from a doctor, and I was just being tired of getting run around with doctors with Medicaid from my son.
SPEAKER_00: And I finally said one day, like, listen, you're a lousy human being.
SPEAKER_00: What you're doing to me is bad humanity.
SPEAKER_00: And the person said, No, actually, I don't think I'm a bad human.
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think you need to back off on that one, and let's talk about what we can do.
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Okay.
SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, I think you're probably right.
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sorry, you know, but like, so that was a really interesting thing, you know.
SPEAKER_01: My most satisfying uh experience with those kinds of phone calls is when my grandson was about two or three, I would just hand him the phone.
SPEAKER_01: Oh and he would talk to the ducky mates, and then he would say, We're going to the duck park.
SPEAKER_01: Now I can't talk to you and hang out.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_03: Well, what I what what what I often do is I ask the person for their own phone number so I can call them back and see and see how they feel.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is just really difficult to do, and and and again, it's it has to do with the system, and this I think is part of the deal that we we sometimes fail to realize.
SPEAKER_00: It has to do with a system that's huge, right?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that person, they're not out to get your money for themselves.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's their job.
SPEAKER_00: It's a dreary job.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, do more information.
SPEAKER_00: So, how do we not be nasty about somebody who this is like their employment opportunity?
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just really hard stuff.
SPEAKER_00: It's hard because listen, I hate that system.
SPEAKER_00: I hate it.
SPEAKER_00: I I the person who impersonated my email to get eBay gift cards, like that's just really hard for me.
SPEAKER_00: And again, maybe part of the deal is just to say, vengeance is yours, God, which means it's not mine.
SPEAKER_00: And that's probably a pretty healthy perspective, is vengeance is the Lord, so that means don't you all go doing it.
SPEAKER_00: Whatever that looks like, you just have to sort of allow God to have that.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know the answer to that.
SPEAKER_00: You you you did read though, this is where we got our hymn, the battle hymn of the public, right?
SPEAKER_07: Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_07: Oh, I did I didn't see what is that.
SPEAKER_00: Um this is about treading out the winepress where the grapes are rather stored.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Um that's in 63.
SPEAKER_00: Why are your robes red and your garments like theirs that had the wine press?
SPEAKER_00: I have trodden the winepress alone from the peoples, no one was with me.
SPEAKER_00: I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath.
SPEAKER_00: Their juice spattered on my garments and stained all my robes.
SPEAKER_00: For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redeeming work had come.
SPEAKER_00: So here I think is this really interesting question, right?
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I trampled down peoples in my anger, I crushed them in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.
SPEAKER_00: So that's really tough.
SPEAKER_00: Again, that's an image of like revenge, but if you push on it just a little bit, right?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the reason you trot on grapes is not because you hate them, it's so you can make some wine.
SPEAKER_00: And in the ancient world, they don't have grape juice, so they've either got wine or they got nothing.
SPEAKER_03: And that was chapter one.
SPEAKER_00: Chapter 63.
SPEAKER_00: It's about God's vengeance on Edom.
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's this really interesting opportunity where the scriptures either read us or we read them.
SPEAKER_00: And and I do want to always hold out that there's not a unilateral right to read scripture.
SPEAKER_00: So I think we could say, hey, listen, this is all about us using drones in Pakistan to get even with those terrorists.
SPEAKER_00: I think we could read that.
SPEAKER_00: We could.
SPEAKER_00: I I think that's like extremely wrong, personally, for a lot of reasons, uh, and like even national security reasons, not in our best interest.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but but this uh is another opportunity which is about pressure being applied to make wine out of us so that we don't rot.
SPEAKER_00: Because in the ancient world, if you don't make wine out of grapes, they're gonna rot.
SPEAKER_00: And wine is more nutritious than grapes.
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's about bringing out what's better in us, and that sometimes seems to take some pressure.
SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: Again, I I may sound really fruity and talking about grapes and a wine press, but I but I think it's a really interesting thing.
SPEAKER_04: I'd rather be a diamond than a piece of coal.
SPEAKER_04: A lot of pressure on that coal.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, some days I'd settle to be coal, you know.
SPEAKER_00: I just have to be honest.
SPEAKER_00: But I'm with you too.
SPEAKER_07: Just settle to be, just to be.
SPEAKER_00: Did you notice going on further, uh, that that uh there won't be any more sacrifice or incense happening?
SPEAKER_00: This is this sort of vision.
SPEAKER_00: Remember, there's no temple, so you can't have those things.
SPEAKER_00: So there's this interesting thing about like what worship is supposed to look like.
SPEAKER_00: And every Lent on Ash Wednesday, we we tend to read this bit about what a real fast is.
SPEAKER_00: Is it sackcloth and ashes?
SPEAKER_00: Is it depriving yourself of something?
SPEAKER_00: The answer is no.
SPEAKER_00: It's about feeding poor people, it's about being just.
SPEAKER_00: That's the acceptable fast of the Lord.
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's just that's interesting.
SPEAKER_07: You know what?
SPEAKER_07: I think was it this church or another church who did drive by ashes?
SPEAKER_07: Yes, I'm just gonna.
SPEAKER_00: Uh I didn't drive by because that's like a gang thing.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if I didn't drive by, I would sort of like throw some ashes at people and be like, bam, you repent.
SPEAKER_00: You repent.
SPEAKER_00: You can drive through, but I didn't under drive by.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, well, being in an inner city, you know, drive-by is like, oh my god, he's like driving.
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna think about that, actually.
SPEAKER_00: This is interesting because I think this is about imagination and stretching.
SPEAKER_00: I think it is, and I think it would be really interesting to do drive-by baptisms.
SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna like what I have to say, but I'm gonna say it like here comes the grace of the Lord.
SPEAKER_00: I don't want that, too bad.
SPEAKER_00: And that's sort of how the grace of the Lord works.
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually really sure this is why we baptize babies, because they have no choice, and there's something really true about that.
SPEAKER_00: Well, bidden or unbidden, God's presence is fully on you, so here it is, and here's a symbol that you've got no choice over this luxury that will be with you your entire time.
SPEAKER_07: Go to confession once a month once a week or once a month, and that time was not a choice either.
SPEAKER_07: You forgot it happened, everybody went.
SPEAKER_00: You know, Augustine of Hippo was elected bishop and made a priest against his will.
SPEAKER_00: He said, I don't want to do that.
SPEAKER_00: And the people said, We don't care.
SPEAKER_00: The bishop ordained him with him saying no.
SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting to think about drive-by baptisms.
SPEAKER_00: Well, they have drive-by viewing of the dead, and well, I think you have drive through viewing of the dead.
SPEAKER_00: See, drive-by means violence.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and in some ways, this is really interesting.
SPEAKER_00: But this is the stretch, right?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: God's vengeance is forgiveness, it's a drive-by baptism.
SPEAKER_07: No, and I see.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying I'm going to do that or we shouldn't.
SPEAKER_07: I know, I know.
SPEAKER_07: I know.
SPEAKER_07: I and the only reason I used a drive-by because I had inner city schools that there were such things as drive-by-five-by-five-scale.
SPEAKER_00: But so I'm sitting here thinking, like, maybe it's disrespectful to do a drive-by baptism.
SPEAKER_00: But in some ways it's not.
SPEAKER_00: So the question is, like, how do you take the best part of that and do that?
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you give drive-by grace and reconciliation?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's really the image here.
SPEAKER_07: And you, you know, the idea that that about the perfect view of God is that I could just sit here or at home or somewhere and say an act of contrition and truly in my heart and spend five minutes or and really say, you know, this is what I've done, and I'm because you believe he's everywhere.
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
SPEAKER_07: At every time, at every place.
SPEAKER_00: But this is why we need the community, because God doesn't even need that.
SPEAKER_00: We need it.
SPEAKER_00: That's what I think.
SPEAKER_00: We need somebody because we're physical people to physically tell us God is finished with that.
SPEAKER_00: If you don't think you need that, I think you're deluding yourself.
SPEAKER_00: I think we need somebody.
SPEAKER_00: Again, we're embodied people.
SPEAKER_00: Salvation happens to and with and through our bodies.
SPEAKER_00: And so does forgiveness and reconciliation.
SPEAKER_00: That's why I do it every day.
SPEAKER_00: Now, listen, that may be all you need on Sundays.
SPEAKER_00: And you may only need it once a year, but at some point I think when you're vulnerable with somebody and you say, I'm sorry, you need somebody to say it's okay.
SPEAKER_00: Your apology helps.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we should ever say it's okay, but I think thank you for your apology.
SPEAKER_00: Without those words, it's like you've passed the ball and you don't know if they've caught it, stomped on it, intentionally missed it.
SPEAKER_00: And and look, we don't live in our heads.
SPEAKER_07: Well, I what I meant with the okay was if you're saying it to a third person like a position.
SPEAKER_07: Uh that you didn't come in a do something wrong to that person, but you said, I I did this thing wrong to my husband, or I was whatever.
SPEAKER_07: And he blesses you and forgives you in God's name.
SPEAKER_07: You know.
SPEAKER_00: I think we do that to each other without the clerical stuff when we accept apologies or when we give good ones.
SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00: But and and and I'm I'm not trying to say you won't need to schedule a confession like the priest.
SPEAKER_00: That's not what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_00: I'm saying there is something really important about the physicality of this.
SPEAKER_00: And and part of what I think the author does here, imaginality uh uh uh uh you know, through really tough stretching imaginative images, is he starts to include physicality that is often revolting to us.
SPEAKER_00: The eunuch is a revolting person at the time of the Bible.
SPEAKER_00: Not so much to us because listen, we've got all kinds of clothes, and that's none of your business, and whatever.
SPEAKER_00: So then the question is, what is revolting for you?
SPEAKER_00: And then you touch those people.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, for Francis it was the leper, right?
SPEAKER_00: His real conversion moment came when he kissed the leper.
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not doing that.
SPEAKER_00: I I mean that's not my conversion moment.
SPEAKER_00: So so so what's yours?
SPEAKER_00: And then let's not pretend like we're gonna have one of them, right?
SPEAKER_00: Because that was the whole point of the sermon, which I may or may not have done well, right?
SPEAKER_00: Is the we have big moments that are milestones on a journey that we trod every single day.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my one of my good friends talked about hiking the Pacific Rim Trail, and it took him six months to do that.
SPEAKER_00: And he talked about how a couple of times he saw a wild goat or this or that.
SPEAKER_00: That was a couple of times on a 6,000-mile trail, right?
SPEAKER_00: A lot of walking the trail is just walking a trail.
SPEAKER_07: I I I drove I I rode my bike across country from Newland to Gloucester, Massachusetts, and I saw one mountain goat.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: I really did do that.
SPEAKER_07: And uh I I and I I I can still remember the mountain goat and the and the other thing was the rocks in in in Wyoming were amazing, the stone structures and the colors of the rocks and all that.
SPEAKER_00: And I bet you there were a lot of days where there was nothing amazing at all.
SPEAKER_00: Nothing in part of the journey, right, is that that's how it is.
SPEAKER_00: There's ordinary days, and sometimes there's surprise.
SPEAKER_00: Like I will have to tell you, sometimes I've been really dolorous and dour, and I've been surprised by joy.
SPEAKER_00: Like some because I can't control it.
SPEAKER_00: You know, thank God for that.
SPEAKER_08: That is very welcome.
SPEAKER_00: I use one stone.
SPEAKER_08: Say that again.
SPEAKER_08: He he used the analogy of big stones and the mortar in between.
SPEAKER_00: And what keeps that's what keeps them in place, or they fall over.
SPEAKER_08: It's our it's our daily lives.
SPEAKER_08: The mundane.
SPEAKER_07: Oh, I'll just say one more thing about going cross-country.
SPEAKER_07: I was I was so tired, I was and I was separated from everybody else.
SPEAKER_07: There were 40 of us, but we girls.
SPEAKER_07: And these a car went by, and there were four one, there were four girls in the car.
SPEAKER_07: One was driving, and the other three all stuck their heads up from their waists, waved at me, you go, girl.
SPEAKER_07: Well, of course, I wasn't get your asses back in that car.
SPEAKER_07: What is wrong with you?
SPEAKER_07: But I'll never forget that moment of these three women doing that because they recognize here's this woman going.
SPEAKER_07: She's gotta be going a long way.
SPEAKER_07: And there was that connection with us that was that came out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_00: Joy, presence.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: You know, another time a trucker came came and he he he he honked it like that.
SPEAKER_07: I just knew what he was saying and what what he meant by that tooting that horn.
SPEAKER_07: I don't know why I'm saying that.
SPEAKER_00: I've had other people toot their horns on my bike, and it was the absolute opposite, and I knew that's what they were doing and talk about disconnection.
SPEAKER_07: But this but this is a connection.
SPEAKER_00: It was not because funny how the same things can mean totally different things.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, but it was the way the way he did his free tooth is a good thing.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: A one-tooth is get out of my way.
SPEAKER_00: It depends when they do.
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not kidding you.
SPEAKER_00: Have I ruined the prophet or what the or the things we've missed here?
SPEAKER_04: It's been Christmas.
SPEAKER_04: I'll tell you one thing when you talk about baptism.
SPEAKER_04: When I was a student nurse in a Catholic hospital.
SPEAKER_04: I baptized a lot of babies in the nursery that were not gonna make it.
SPEAKER_04: They told us we could do that.
SPEAKER_04: But when the one baby that I baptized got better, and the parents, this was before the babies were all out there, these were in the nursery when parents came to see them.
SPEAKER_04: And the parents had a sum about it being wonderful.
SPEAKER_04: And I said, I really hope you believe that.
SPEAKER_04: And she said, Well, of course I do.
SPEAKER_04: And I said, Well, when the baby was really sick, I baptized.
SPEAKER_04: And I hope that it doesn't offend your Jewish sensitivities.
SPEAKER_04: They both started to laugh.
SPEAKER_04: You know, and they said, apparently it helped.
SPEAKER_04: And I thought, oh, you know, what have I done to these parents to make because at those times they kind of thought that they would be raised as Catholic.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: But I said, I think it was just praying.
SPEAKER_04: Because I used to pray a lot when I was in that nursery.
SPEAKER_04: You know, because it was God that was.
SPEAKER_00: So you said something I've been rolling over in my head for a couple of months.
SPEAKER_00: And it has to do with every single sacrament there is.
SPEAKER_00: And I think we usually only do it with communion.
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's these three big old words that we learned probably when we were taking European history.
SPEAKER_07: Transubstantiation.
SPEAKER_07: I think that's how you say it.
SPEAKER_00: This is what I've told my fifth graders here about ways people have approached the Eucharist, right?
SPEAKER_00: So you you learn this, right?
SPEAKER_00: Transubstantiation is when it turns into the body and blood, literally.
SPEAKER_00: Now, now, you know, Catholic people know it didn't taste like blood, it didn't taste like flesh.
SPEAKER_00: So they use this the Aristotelian categories are um accidents and essence.
SPEAKER_00: So the accidents don't change, the essence changes.
SPEAKER_00: Like the chemical formula is the blood of Jesus, but but the expression isn't.
SPEAKER_00: But the but the butt the chemical formula did change.
SPEAKER_00: Luther said no, but it's got the real presence of Jesus in it.
SPEAKER_00: The real presence.
SPEAKER_00: And then the symbolism is sort of it only changes if you think it does.
SPEAKER_00: Right?
SPEAKER_00: So it's all about you.
SPEAKER_00: This is something changes we're not quite sure, right?
SPEAKER_00: And and and this is the one where we say, like, hey, um, look, the bread nourishes your body and the wine nourishes your body.
SPEAKER_00: So like what's changed is that now it will also nourish your spirit.
SPEAKER_00: Imagine that.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, at the end of the day, like that's what it means.
SPEAKER_00: So this is about like demonstrable magic.
SPEAKER_00: And this is about the best kind of magic, is what I think.
SPEAKER_00: Now, listen, I don't hate transubstantiation.
SPEAKER_00: I I don't mean it that way.
SPEAKER_00: But like if you're a transubstantiationist, when I get ordained, I'm somehow chemically different as a priest.
SPEAKER_00: What's funny is if you're a transubstantiationist and you ordained priest, you can unordain them.
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't work in my head.
SPEAKER_07: You can unfreder them.
SPEAKER_00: You can they can be defrocked.
SPEAKER_00: So a Catholic priest can be defrocked.
SPEAKER_00: I cannot be defrocked.
SPEAKER_00: Even though we don't do transubstantiation in the Episcopal Church.
SPEAKER_00: We do, interestingly enough, say, uh, hey, there is a lifetime change, but what it is we don't quite know.
SPEAKER_00: Baptism is one of those interesting things, right?
SPEAKER_00: You can be a transubstantiation Baptist, and the baby's original sin has changed, or something like this, right?
SPEAKER_00: That there's demonstrable magic.
SPEAKER_00: And if the demonstrable magic isn't there, the magic didn't work.
SPEAKER_00: I think consubstantiation is about, and I I'm biased because I'm an Episcopal priest, right?
SPEAKER_00: I think it's about the best kind of magic.
SPEAKER_00: Uh not the one with the most demonstrable results, the one with like a set with that that has like the real presence of God, right?
SPEAKER_00: So what's the whole point of baptism?
SPEAKER_00: God is really present.
SPEAKER_00: What's the whole point of ordination?
SPEAKER_00: God is really present.
SPEAKER_00: What's the point of marriage?
SPEAKER_00: God is really present.
SPEAKER_00: In reconciliation, God is really present.
SPEAKER_00: Not wiping off a marker board is sin, but just really present.
SPEAKER_00: That's the best kind of magic, right?
SPEAKER_07: We did not know that transubstantiation meant that, that it was accidental.
SPEAKER_00: It's not accidental, it's essential.
SPEAKER_00: No, no, because remember, the wine does not taste like blood.
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
SPEAKER_00: But it is.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: Okay, I can see what you mean.
SPEAKER_07: Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And so, like, I think the real important phrase is it is.
SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's do it's somehow it's demonstrable and it's literal.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And this is really funny because I think this way is really saying it's essential, but it may not be literal.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's and that's where the words are funny, because this is the word with essence.
unknown: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: But this is, but it's about literal, and this is about I think there's really interesting phrase that I learned from a seminary teacher who's a Baptist.
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be true to be the truth.
SPEAKER_00: I think consubstantiation is about that.
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be literal to be true with a capital T.
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be factual to be true with a capital T.
SPEAKER_00: Like to kill a Mockingbird, that's made up.
SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00: You you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00: And that's the real presence.
SPEAKER_00: I I think so.
SPEAKER_06: Something.
SPEAKER_06: So I I think something magical maybe happens because we don't worry too much about alcoholics taking communion and falling off the wagon, or people getting flu from the case.
SPEAKER_00: We let them worry about that.
SPEAKER_00: We let alcoholics worry about that.
SPEAKER_00: And it's tough.
SPEAKER_00: It is tough.
SPEAKER_00: And the flu business is really interesting.
SPEAKER_00: Actually, nobody has ever gotten sick from communion, and it's much more dangerous to dip it than it is to drink from that because your fingers are a thousand times dirtier than your mouth.
SPEAKER_04: So well, and they say the metal.
SPEAKER_00: Silver.
SPEAKER_00: That's why we use silver.
SPEAKER_00: We have a clay set here they used to use inland.
SPEAKER_00: That is a public health nightmare.
SPEAKER_00: We never use that again.
SPEAKER_00: It's doctor right, because it's antibacterial.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_06: But uh, okay.
SPEAKER_06: So, I mean, I think about things like but I've discussed them with people before.
SPEAKER_06: It's apparently the alcoholics don't fall off the way.
SPEAKER_04: The priests that church sends.
SPEAKER_04: He said that they have never had, in his knowledge, that he was big in the classes for AA, and he said that you know, he had never had a case where the alcoholic went back to drinking from community.
SPEAKER_04: They just have to do it.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Uh I just everybody's different in that, but what I'm used to is alcoholics kiss the cup instead of drinking from it, or they just skip it.
SPEAKER_00: And the Praibit says the intention to consume is as good as consuming.
SPEAKER_00: And that's real magic.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: Not literal magic.
SPEAKER_00: But it's more than symbolism, that's the interesting thing.
SPEAKER_06: And in your heart, yeah.
SPEAKER_06: Now, I'm sure you go like, damn, that was one other side.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think it's so good.
SPEAKER_02: You can't even buy it so good.
SPEAKER_02: What is it?
SPEAKER_02: But is this not?
SPEAKER_02: It's 212.
SPEAKER_02: The temples is not the most important thing to understand tour.
SPEAKER_02: It's only the temple thing.
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about it next week next time because that's directly related.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: When we read Haggai.
SPEAKER_00: Reminder, December 5th is our next meeting.
SPEAKER_00: Next week we won't meet on Wednesday.
SPEAKER_00: It's Thanksgiving week.
SPEAKER_00: And then that following week we're coming back on a Thursday, not a Wednesday.
SPEAKER_04: Oh, not a Thursday.
SPEAKER_00: I may just won.
SPEAKER_04: Oh, what another one.
SPEAKER_00: It's a great question.
SPEAKER_04: That's a good question.
unknown: Okay, so it's important.