WEBVTT 00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:12.000 She seems to really sweet like with arrows and and I liked her. 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:15.519 But I bet you didn't do your homework in her class. 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:20.079 The day of the Lord was every test. 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:21.760 Yeah, no kidding. 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:24.480 Well, well, what do you say? 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:28.879 Do you have we read a bunch of different books, really? 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:30.879 Uh short ones, mind you. 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:46.079 But um were there items that stood out to you again, like I don't know about this, or okay, or um things that you're kind of chewing over from our reading this week? 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:53.600 I have a question which is not prone to very much of anything around here. 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:58.719 It said Nineveh was the capital of Syria? 00:00:59.200 --> 00:00:59.679 Nineveh? 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:00.560 Nineveh. 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:06.319 Yeah, so Nineveh is the capital of the of the Assyrian Empire. 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:09.519 Syria and Assyria are different. 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:11.599 They're not cognates at all. 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:16.000 Syria is this region kind of like Syria is today. 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:16.319 Yeah. 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:30.319 Assyria would include modern day most of Iraq and we'd impinge there upon Syria because it grows, but Assyria is the bigger one. 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:33.200 Syria's capital is Damascus. 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:37.280 Assyria's capital appears to be Nineveh. 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:40.159 In some references, it's the city of Ashur. 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:42.400 A-S-S-H-U-R. 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:47.200 But Nineveh, Ashur is the older city, and Nineveh is like the new sort of capital. 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.040 Is it still there? 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:51.680 Nineveh, no, it's sort of wiped out. 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:58.319 I mean, there's there's broken pottery and things like that, but nothing like um. 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:02.079 I'm the same with Jericho, ancient city totally wiped out. 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:06.239 Uh Babylon uh is the replacement. 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:12.800 You can actually see more of ancient Babylon in in Berlin than you can if you go to Iraq. 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:13.280 Yeah. 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:17.199 Yeah, the Germans stole the things that were worth cooperating. 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:18.080 Yeah. 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:36.400 Well, at the risk of being obnoxious, sir. 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.120 You had a question you wanted to ask for a couple of minutes. 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:40.400 Well, we'll get to that. 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:46.000 Um because it's let's I want to concentrate on. 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:47.360 Well, anyway. 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.919 Um gosh, you I don't remember what I was gonna say. 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:54.240 Yeah, that was the question. 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:06.159 The question was if there was something that stood out to you as we got ready, that we, you know, it's not just about questions, but it's about comments or things that you, you know, that are leading with the guide in your thinking this week. 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:12.240 How much of what we have read here is I'll say historically accurate? 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:13.280 Yeah. 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:18.639 Um well, I'm thinking about with respect to the kings, not so much the prophets, but the kings. 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:27.520 Yeah, I mean, it's hard to know all of that, but but no reason um to discount what we have. 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:38.240 I mean, I think the thing that we have to remember that we often I think have a skewed perspective is that this is like a country the size of Rhode Island. 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:46.240 And sometimes we we think, ah, this is like the most splendiferous place in the world, and actually that would be very incorrect. 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:53.120 So you've heard that Solomon was the richest man in the world, perhaps. 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:54.800 That is so false. 00:03:55.199 --> 00:04:01.199 And the proof is Solomon marries one of Pharaoh's daughters, and she finds his palace a pig stock. 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:06.639 So he has to build her a special room because it's not nice enough. 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.199 Her room is nicer than his. 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:16.160 And the temple that Solomon builds to the Lord in Jerusalem, God's house, is smaller than our sanctuary. 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.199 This is really important to have in mind. 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:22.079 For instance, Josiah. 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.079 Is there a historical record that he was killed in the battle? 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:28.480 Or more killed in the battle? 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:36.000 Historical record is a really interesting phrase because ancient people didn't have history as we do it now. 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:40.000 I mean, sort of modern history really starts in the 1800s. 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:49.839 Um but yeah, there's no reason, I think, to be suspicious that Josiah is killed on Nikko's way to the Battle of Karkimesh. 00:04:50.079 --> 00:05:03.920 So this is a thing, is you've got Egypt, which ultimately swallows Ethiopia, and Egypt is a relatively wealthy country, and part of it is it's compartmentalized from the other people of Mesopotamia. 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:10.000 So Egypt had Ethiopia as an Ethiopia was a strong kingdom, actually. 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:16.000 Egypt subdues Ethiopia, and then there's no more natural predators, if that makes sense. 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.839 Because you've got to go across Canaan. 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:30.079 And Canaan is diversely populated and peopled, so it's really the Assyrian Empire and the Neo-Babylonian Empire that start to push down on that buffer. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:45.120 Um Egypt really had never been tested on a scale outside of North Africa, and the test comes in 609, apparently, at the Battle of Karchamesh. 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:56.160 That's where Pharaoh Nico goes up and attacks the Neo-Babylonians under the general Nebuchadnezzar, who's the king, and soundly loses. 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:08.720 So Egypt is like a defeated world power that used to be important, but will really not, will really be a second-tier country here on out, if that makes sense. 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:15.600 Um, and so this is part of what you hear in the prophets, is like, what, first of all, why do you keep going back to Egypt? 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:21.680 Because you were in slavery there, and it's like you're seeking to be in bondage to them again. 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:25.920 So God delivered you once and for all, don't go back under bondage. 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:31.680 If it's second, it's not even pragmatic to return to Egypt because they're a second-tier country. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:41.360 It would be like something like, hey, um the Nazis seem real powerful, let's throw our allegiance in with France. 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:43.759 Well, that didn't go very well, right? 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.720 Because it took about six weeks to run that country over. 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:49.279 I mean, that's that's sort of what we're talking about. 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:56.160 But Nico is a real person. 00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:59.199 The Battle of Carkamesh is a real battle. 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:04.720 Um, but you gotta think Josiah didn't even make it to the Battle of Carkamesh. 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:11.839 I mean, it's like a little script, he's kind of like a gnat on Egypt's army, and they just squat him, and that's the end of that. 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:15.839 Nico even said, you know, don't bother with me. 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:18.319 Nico says that in Chronicles. 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:19.680 See, this is important. 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:22.079 We we we have two accounts. 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:29.279 We have kings, which to be honest with you, is a little more like history as we're we're familiar. 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:31.439 It's more the events. 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:41.360 Chronicles is a little more editorializing that sort of says, uh, this happened because the people did this bad thing. 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:49.519 And so in Chronicles, you get honestly a little more, don't take this the wrong way, but you get a little more embellished story. 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:54.399 I didn't mean fictionalized, you just get an embellished story. 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:58.399 So in the Kings, Nico didn't have to say anything to Josiah. 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:05.279 In Chronicles, Josiah is a really good guy, so how is it that God didn't deliver him? 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:10.800 Well, I mean, Nico himself said go away, and Josiah was stubborn and didn't listen. 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:12.160 So there you have it. 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:19.120 Because I think when you read it, you gotta wonder if Josiah is the best king, really, ever. 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:25.920 Really, then how come he just all of a sudden is slaughtered in a battle? 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.240 There's gotta be some reason. 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:32.159 This becomes really important. 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:39.360 There's gotta be some reason because life and faith are linear after all. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:47.360 Uh I disagree with that phrase, even though at my core I believe that to be true, along with the rest of us. 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:49.120 And I think this is part of the deal, right? 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:54.320 Is Chronicles is trying to make sense of why do bad things happen to good people. 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:08.720 And again, I was like, if you believe Chronicles, you're not almost as if Josiah was asking for it. 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:15.039 Because if it is true that he both said, don't tap me, I'm I'm way more powerful. 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:17.919 And Josiah said, I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna do it anyway. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:25.039 But I mean, as you said, up to that point, Josiah was he's he he was following the covenant. 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:31.200 See, this always becomes a really interesting thing, and she said in the video the problem is pride, and I disagree with her. 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:40.879 I think we have really taken pride, uh, we've mapped pride into a negative category theologically, and I think really the word we ought to use is hubris. 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.960 Hubris and pride are really different things linguistically. 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:58.320 Um, and and if you don't mind me saying the definition of humility that's sort of my ground, my baseline is humility is being exactly who God created you to be, no more and no less. 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:07.039 So humility really is about proper pride, being more than you are is about hubris. 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:23.360 So it would be hubris, I would suggest, for the island nation of Haiti to think that God has put on their side such that they can militarily conquer the United States. 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:33.440 And that's a clear, and we laugh at that, because we're Americans and we believe in the American military machine, and we all know that Haiti is a fundamentally impoverished nation that has no weapons. 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:35.440 So this is actually makes quite a bit of sense. 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.679 That analogy is pretty similar to Josiah trying to overrun Egypt. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:44.720 Israel was sort of like Haiti or Portugal. 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:47.919 We just have to put this in perspective, right? 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:48.159 Yeah. 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.960 And so you can say, well, like the Lord's on your side, you can do anything. 00:10:53.679 --> 00:11:00.639 Maybe, but that phrase could also lead you into a hubris mentality. 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:04.399 And I think this is something to lift up. 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:08.960 So I used to teach it at school, and I used to learn this bit. 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:23.679 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, which is quite arguably the most abused verse in the New Testament, because that verse in context is that Paul is suffering on behalf of the message. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.960 He's getting beaten and starved, he's been stoned a few times. 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:35.120 And uh what we learned as teenagers is if God's on your side, you can do anything like get gold medals in the Olympics when you've never trained. 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.960 And all of that I think is theoretically possible, but hogwash. 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:49.039 I mean, I you know, I guess God could make me a professional basketball player, but I don't really believe God works that way, so I don't think so. 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:50.399 I you know what I mean. 00:11:50.480 --> 00:12:00.879 It sort of lends us to magical thinking and to hubris, and in general, I um people who buy into that thinking, I think, fall into the hubris trap. 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:03.759 So that's what happened to Josiah? 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:09.360 It's what happened to Josiah, and Nahum says that's what's gonna happen to Assyria too. 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:23.759 Assyria is so into themselves, and the truth is when you're the best, uh, it doesn't mean you can sit around because there's always somebody else who is contending for your position. 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:29.200 I'm really surprised that Tampa Bay has been able to ask those. 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:31.440 You're kidding. 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.480 I'm kidding, I wouldn't make that up. 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:40.159 So I think that hubris really makes quite a bit of sense when we think about sports teams. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:56.159 And I think if we wanted to take the message seriously, the hubris message really has to do with things like when does nationalism become like jingoism and patriotism and inherent hubris. 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:03.679 So when do we mistake our civic duty for world dominance? 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.600 If if that makes sense, I think that's the analog. 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:20.240 I I think we could say, oh look, this is about countries that are evil, like Assyria and Nazi Germany, good thing we're not like that, and then I think we missed the hook here. 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.159 The hook is to beware of hubris. 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:40.080 So if I were gonna preach this, which I'm not, because it's not an electionary, we have to be aware of things like saying an American life is worth more than every life in Southeast Asia. 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.519 Which Barry Goldwater said during the Vietnam War. 00:13:43.759 --> 00:14:05.120 Or we have to think that American, be careful when we say American interests outweigh South American democratically elected leaders, so that we can assassinate them through the CIA and protect ATT, or protect American oil interests by overthrowing Mosadek and installing the Shah. 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:07.360 This is American hubris. 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:10.320 Now, I don't mean, hey, we're worse than anybody else. 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:14.000 I mean this is, I think, is what the prophet has in mind. 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:27.039 The Assyrians believe that their gods are gifting them with victory, and if we worship America as a god, it's hubris. 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:30.799 And that's the analog, I think. 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.679 I hope I didn't sound too controversial there. 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:39.279 So it says here on 58 that the goddess Ishtar protected. 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.240 So they ever just states that. 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:51.840 So these gods that they were always turning to, they apparently had something to do. 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:55.919 That was a problem. 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:02.159 Yeah, that's it. 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:04.480 It's so inexplicable to us nowadays. 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:08.159 I love the Lord, okay. 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:25.360 I'm gonna go down the street and burn incense, which he seems to dislike a whole lot, you know, or sacrifice to this pile of rocks, although I would want to I gotta hedge my bets. 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:41.679 I think we've got to, I I I think uh I think that's fair, and I think there's also this tendency of us to look at these silly people that are worshiping rocks, and once again, I think idolatry is really about a system more than it is worshiping an image. 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:50.559 So it has to do, I think, with hubris and transactionalism, and these are things that we find ourselves caught up in, I think, regularly. 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:57.360 I didn't know anybody that carves poles and offers food to the poles and thinks that's somehow appeasing God. 00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.600 I really don't know anybody who does that. 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:04.240 Um and if that's my definition of idolatry, whew, I'm free and clear. 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:20.480 But it but again, I think idolatry has a lot to do with the sort of messy ways in which I put value, either through my money or my time or my mental energy, in things that come at other people's expense or aren't life-giving. 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:26.559 And that's really hard to preach about because geez, how do you really quantify that? 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:34.320 We always want quantities, we want clear definitions, and I'm not sure life is always so clear. 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.960 For example, taking on a running regimen could be really healthy. 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.360 It could also be terrible for your body. 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:51.440 So if you're doing this great exercise, but you're hurting your body, I would tell you it's idolatry. 00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:03.360 And that's not always clear because for some people it isn't, and for some people it is, and that's that's just really hard. 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:09.839 Well, what I essentially I think you're saying is in a sense, addiction is idolatry. 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:17.920 Yeah, and you know, again, I think our our our problem is that we like to pinpoint addiction to things like drugs and alcohol abuse. 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:28.880 And um what we often miss in the idolatry category is that being workaholics and perfectionists actually is comes from the same brain dysfunction as those other things. 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:31.440 They're just socially acceptable, right? 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:41.519 Or an alcoholic who's able to be high functioning, ah, not so bad as somebody who can't function under the influence of alcohol. 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:53.519 So we make these gradations instead of saying that the root illness, which is actually identifiable in a brain scan, the root illness is the same, the symptoms are different. 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:58.160 We much more comfortable with an exercise bulimic. 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:05.759 That's somebody who either makes themselves vomit or they eat and they make themselves exercise those calories off. 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:11.599 We're way more comfortable than that than we are with somebody who is addicted to marijuana. 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.599 Or tobacco or bathing or whatever else it is, right? 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:29.920 I mean, and and and this is I think these are ways we get ourselves off the hook sometimes because we pigeonhole idolatry. 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:58.799 Well, not for everybody, but those people make their choices. 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:06.000 But I'm saying at some point in time he's providing for a beautiful world with all nice people in it. 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:11.680 This becomes a really interesting thought, and it's in each one of our books, and it's called The Day of the Lord. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:12.160 Right? 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:17.680 See, and Amos talked about the day of the Lord, and I might have told you this, but here's a fun anecdote about it. 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:24.160 I had a professor when I was in seminary, he's actually now the dean of the seminary at uh Baylor. 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:25.759 Uh he wasn't back then. 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:31.519 He'd gone to Scotland to Aberdeen to write his PhD, and he spoke in iambic pentameter. 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:35.039 He was a native Texas, but he spoke in meter. 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:39.680 And he uh he was this tall, I mean he looked like a Scottish man, actually. 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:41.839 He's tall, thin, and pale. 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:46.160 And uh he was a little bit awkward, but always with so much poise. 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:52.240 And he was talking about the day of the Lord, and I remember this to this day because it did it didn't come out in meter. 00:19:52.799 --> 00:20:00.480 The day of the Lord is when God opens up a can of whoop-ass on the world, was his definition. 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:10.400 Now, uh and this is what the prophets sort of say, and the images are right, that's when God will sweep away all corruption. 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:18.559 This is when God is going to sort of take apparently uneven scales and get even. 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.119 The wicked will perish and the righteous will flourish. 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:33.680 And it's interesting because I would tell you the day of the Lord, the prophets say you shouldn't want that, by the way. 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.559 Have you noticed? 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.599 They say don't want that because it's not gonna work out well for you. 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:53.759 And we let me rest there for a second and go on to the next thing, which is that the best-selling fiction series ever is not Harry Potter, it's left behind. 00:20:54.720 --> 00:21:17.119 Because it speaks to this cultural mythology that people who believe the right things are on God's team, or rather, God's on our team, and faith has a real reward, and we won't suffer, and all those people who don't think like we do, who are evil and wrong, they'll all go to hell in a handbasket, and it'll suck to be them. 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.519 So even though you're miserable with your faith right now, hang on. 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.559 Really, all it is is a way of karma thinking. 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:31.119 You get what you deserve. 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.440 And by the way, you don't even have to be a good person, you just have to believe in Jesus. 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:49.359 And and I want to suggest to you actually that what the prophets are asking us to do is to not look forward to that day. 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:58.079 Not because not just because it won't go well for us, but I want to I want to ask you to consider because God's not actually like that. 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:00.799 We're Like that. 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:07.279 The way we work is you hit me, I hit you back. 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.359 The way we are is we get even. 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:18.720 So what we often imagine is when people do bad stuff to us, we didn't deserve it. 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:21.839 Because it's from our own perspective. 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:29.200 So God is our big brother or sister in the sky with a big paddle to whoop your butt. 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:33.920 And if it doesn't happen now, it'll happen when you die because God will send you to hell. 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:40.400 And I want to suggest to you the prophets are saying that way of thinking is so foreign to who God is. 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:46.319 And the way they say it is, if you really want to buy into that, it won't go well for you. 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:53.039 Yeah, because not to interrupt you, he seems to be awfully patient with these evildoers. 00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:00.240 And I I want to suggest to you the reason that is, is because God isn't like us. 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:02.640 God's greater than we are. 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:10.880 Now, I think the church that raised me said, God isn't like us, God's better at being petty and getting even than we are. 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:18.160 Which I'm going to tell you, and this I think is at stake here. 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.720 If you believe in eternal hell, that's exactly the God you believe in. 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:30.160 Because I've got to tell you, eternal hell for something you do on earth, what we do on earth is not eternal. 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:32.319 I don't know if you thought about this. 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:37.680 You could be a really bad person, but the badness ends with you or in the next generation. 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.039 I mean, the things we do, they don't last forever. 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:45.279 So why would God punish us forever for something that doesn't last forever? 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.079 That'd be disproportionate punishment. 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:59.759 So I think one of the biggest challenges to grace is the doctrine that hell is real and people go there forever. 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:02.960 Hell can be real. 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:05.119 People can go there. 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:09.359 But if people go there forever, God isn't fair. 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:11.839 Sorry, a child understands that. 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:14.720 Where does it say that? 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:17.200 It doesn't say it anywhere. 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:19.920 Hell isn't mentioned in the Bible anyway. 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:21.599 So where'd it come from? 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:23.359 Where did it come from? 00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:27.440 It came from our fantasy to make the world logical and to make God like we are. 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:28.240 That's what I think. 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:31.279 Hell isn't showed up in the Bible. 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:31.599 No. 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:36.160 Somebody else made it up. 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:36.720 Yeah. 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:45.279 And by the way, I think the Reformation, when the Catholics said that you can pray to get out of things and then it didn't need to be. 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:54.799 The Catholic folk came up with this understanding that I think is much more fair than what we Protestants have settled for, which is there's a place called Purgatory. 00:24:55.119 --> 00:25:02.240 And you go to purgatory to have a limited punishment for the things you did wrong that were limited. 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:10.319 So even at our worst, you hurt somebody, again, why would you be punished for that forever? 00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:12.319 Now you don't get off scot-free. 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:14.400 Because that wouldn't be fair. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:16.640 That's why you go to purgatory for a bit. 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:19.680 And when you've been punished, you leave. 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:25.599 It's actually a lot more gracious than what we've settled for. 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:27.680 Don't you think? 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:40.079 And I even grew up that if you were a good person, like an Aboriginal Australian, and you loved your brother and your neighbor, but you didn't know Jesus Christ by name, when you died, you'd go to hell. 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:42.880 Because that's what God demanded. 00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:46.720 I mean, that's I'm a better person than that. 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:50.640 I mean, God would be worse than me if that's true. 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:57.279 Because I understand, hey, relative ignorance, you're not responsible for that. 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:04.079 But we we bought into this fantasy that really is just about nationalism. 00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:08.240 It's about our way is the best way. 00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:16.240 God's on our side, God does things the way I do things, and I'm the most important person in the universe. 00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.039 So when people do something to me, they've in front of God. 00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:22.319 I think that's really what it amounts to. 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:31.359 Because it says in the Bible that God ultimately is the judge of who goes, you know, who goes to heaven. 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:37.839 If you haven't, you're not going to go to hell just because you're not a Christian. 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:47.839 The other thing that becomes really, really important that we often miss is that when fire shows up in the Bible, it's never an instrument of torture. 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:51.279 Fire is an instrument of refinement. 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:57.839 So it burns away draws so that the metal can become pure. 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:01.759 Sort of like in a threshing floor, wheat is separated from chaff. 00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:08.880 And I think we have the decision: are people completely chaffed and some are wheat? 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:13.359 Or quite honestly, are we full of wheat and chaff? 00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:18.559 And in the end, God's going to separate that for our sake. 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:28.079 So is hell where God puts those parts of us that we're afraid of and that separate us from God? 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:32.240 Or is hell where it puts God puts whole people groups? 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:34.400 Does that make sense? 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:40.400 What comes into my mind is God saying, you can do it my way or the hard way. 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.240 That's what I'm thinking. 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:49.519 Yeah, and I think then we have to decide if we do it the hard way. 00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:53.440 Is God mad and punishes us? 00:27:53.680 --> 00:28:19.519 Or does God, I mean, quite honestly, at my good moments of parenting, when my kid, at my good moments, they're not all good, when my kids do stuff I've trained them not to do, I will tell you, I I I grew up with a logical model that said, I hope you get punished because you didn't listen to me, which is so self-centered and so unempathetic. 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:32.000 Or do I say my heart's breaking because I see you're in pain. 00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:52.480 And I I think this is gonna sound crazy, I didn't sometimes we're really sure the scriptures point God is that exacting judge in the sky, watching everything we can do, like Santa Claus and making a list of naughty and nice. 00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:01.039 But I think in that way the scriptures have read us, and I'm not convinced we've read the scriptures. 00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:05.279 Again, the prophets, I think, are saying, do not yearn for the day of the Lord. 00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:09.759 Do not yearn for God to vindicate everything. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:11.839 It won't go well for you. 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:14.880 Jesus said this a different way. 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:21.440 You get really upset about that speck in your neighbor's eye, and you ignore the log in your own. 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:31.680 I know this sounds like a very different read, but but I want to suggest it's it's here. 00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:35.039 Now, hubris, I think, has its own reward. 00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:44.640 And we can say that hubris, God punishes hubris, but I think another way we can understand it is hubris has natural consequences. 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:48.640 And they're usually not very good. 00:29:50.720 --> 00:30:01.519 So I think we have to pick when something bad happens to us, and it it depends each time, is it God doing it to us? 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:05.279 Or does some stuff just happen? 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:11.359 Or do we get to have natural consequences for what we do? 00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:15.839 Because that's all bound up together, right? 00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:31.119 Sometimes we just don't remember um, and I I've had this interesting journey with my teenage son who taught me what kind of questions to ask. 00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:42.720 And if you've ever had kids or a spouse or parents and they did something that was egregious to you, and you asked them why, did you do that? 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:48.960 Did they ever tell you anything that satisfied your anger? 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.079 Have you ever asked why you do that? 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.200 Got an answer and said, I get it now. 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:10.480 In my case, whenever I asked why, either my kiddo didn't know or gave a reason that was so dumb, I just got more upset. 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:17.920 There was nothing kiddo could do to justify because I'd showed him what to do. 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:27.039 So there came this point where I realized asking why questions hurt the relationship every time. 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:32.240 And therefore, maybe I was asking the wrong questions. 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:46.000 And I think these are good analogs to help us figure out how God's mind and heart might work. 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:53.680 See, I think God has to be at the center of our best moments, not at our most vindictive or self-satisfying moments. 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:55.839 I don't know if that makes sense. 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:06.640 My kiddos can be Tasmanian devils, but if I want to see God, I look at them asleep in the bed. 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:15.039 And I wonder when God sees us asleep in the bed, if God doesn't also go, oh, there I am. 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:17.920 You know. 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:23.759 I don't know why it's easier to see God when they're asleep. 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:24.240 It is. 00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:28.720 And they're quiet. 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:29.759 That's what's nice. 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:34.480 I hope I haven't come off the deep end here. 00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:47.599 Again, I hope what you're hearing me say is this urge for the day of the Lord and for retribution and for us to be vindicated, I think the prophets warn us against it because God isn't that way. 00:32:50.319 --> 00:33:01.519 And I think really it ties into the um the bit that Nahum warns us, Assyria gobbles people up, it's full of this hubris. 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:05.599 And in the evangelical church I grew up in, we had so much hubris. 00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:09.279 We knew we were the best people in the world, we were God's chosen people. 00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:12.400 And if we gave money to the church, God was going to give us money back. 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:14.960 It was really not a gift, it was an investment. 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:16.880 God was testing us. 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:20.559 Um we got a speeding ticket, it was because God wanted to teach us a lesson. 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:24.720 And I think all of that, sorry, it's hubris and it's idolatry. 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.480 And I think the prophets are warning us about that. 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:37.519 So when you see someone doing something that you think they wrong, is it okay? 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:44.400 Is it hubris to try to tell them what you don't think it's fine? 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:56.240 I I you as you know, I think um this becomes really, really difficult because it's not if we do it, I think how we do it is probably the most important thing. 00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:57.839 You know? 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:09.039 And I think sometimes we have to look on ourselves and try to figure out whether something is actually wrong or just an affront to the way we decided the world should be. 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:10.320 You know? 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:12.960 We often I think get those things confused. 00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:20.960 And if you don't mind me saying, when we read the Torah, particularly in the book of Leviticus, there's something called the Holiness Code. 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:26.559 And the Holiness Code says you have to behave different from the Egyptians just so you can be different. 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:31.360 So in Egypt, they wear garments made out of two kinds of fabric. 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:32.400 You can't do that. 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:34.000 If you do, it's an abomination. 00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:34.800 It's gross. 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:36.559 In Egypt, they eat shellfish. 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:37.519 You're not gonna do that. 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:38.719 That's gross. 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:44.880 If for no other reason, then you under the then then you're gonna do it to be different. 00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:50.320 And I don't want to say Leviticus is wrong. 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:58.000 There's a point when we teach our children this is our way, in our house, we don't use words like that. 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:00.639 And I think that's good and right. 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:03.280 When they're children. 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:15.760 But if culture is the way we do things around here, right, and that becomes so tight that if you don't follow, you lose your value. 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:17.840 I'm afraid we've missed it. 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:19.440 You know? 00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:29.920 So I I think part of what we have to remember is we grow in moral stages, and what we eat at different stages depends on where we are. 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.800 Well, that sounds like everything is relative. 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:34.480 Well, a lot is relative. 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:51.440 I mean, doesn't your own experience tell you that I guess I'm just really struggling right now with the country, and the divide now just seem to be erupting into this chaos, and what do you do? 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:53.679 I I think it's really, really hard. 00:35:53.760 --> 00:36:05.760 And this this I think is an interesting thing because um I'm gonna tell you, I I personally became slightly disenfranchised with politics a long time ago. 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:11.840 Um and I try to hold room, but I don't know everything because I don't. 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:18.800 I mean, honestly, when people talk about the new tax plan, all I really know is whether my taxes went up or down. 00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.679 And they went up, but I don't like that because it costs more money. 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.480 And I'm suspicious about where my money's going. 00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:36.639 These are the kinds of things, but as a big policy, I mean, I know how to solve um multivariable uh equations and you know, and do derivatives and things like that, but I'm no economist. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.159 I mean, I don't really know. 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:40.800 I've got limited data. 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:55.599 What I think though, and I hope what you hear me say from the pulpit is we have decided that um we're allowed to talk about people we disagree with as if they're non-human beings, and and that's absolutely wrong. 00:36:56.239 --> 00:37:09.840 But sometimes people say things that are so the way we do things around here, they have our economic, fiscal uh same values or something like that. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:21.119 So when they call other people animals, we say, well, I agree with you more than I disagree, so I guess we'll just tolerate that. 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:32.719 And and my thinking is in if you don't mind me saying, in the last election, we had two people whose use of language was evil. 00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:34.639 Both of them. 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:55.760 And we've had dynasties in both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party who are fundamentally misogynist, and we have ignored it when people had charisma or they were successful, and when we don't like them, then we call out what we really don't like. 00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:02.079 So I don't think our current president is any more of a misogynist than Bill Clinton was. 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.000 And in both cases, it was absolutely wrong. 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:15.119 And I didn't think they're evil people, I just think we make this weird thing where we say a person's a liar. 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:17.440 Well, that's not right. 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:21.440 A liar means everything you say is a lie, and I don't think anybody does that. 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:28.159 When people tell lies, I think we say we like the truth. 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:38.000 And when people say that you can grab a woman by the whatever, or that, hey, sh she's my intern, and it was consensual, that's not consensual. 00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:39.039 It's not. 00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:43.039 And we say it's wrong. 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.920 But because somebody does something wrong doesn't mean they're evil. 00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:49.599 We all do things wrong. 00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:53.920 The question is, how do we have accountability without demonizing people? 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:05.519 I think what we've lost is the ability to have conversation, even when we disagree about small things. 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:10.639 And to be honest, like that's on display in the media, and and we just drink it down. 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.199 So I So what do we do to stop? 00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:17.280 I mean, are we wrong to say it's gonna stop, throw them all out? 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:18.320 Start over. 00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:29.519 No, I think I I don't again, I don't think it's about the people, I just think it's this sort of sense that hey, it we're not gonna buy into a way of speaking and acting that we believe to be wrong. 00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:42.800 So verbal, I mean just support that, each other saying and I think it's okay to say, listen, uh I just I'm calling this this thing in the speech bothering me. 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.679 Well, you believe blah blah blah blah blah. 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:47.280 Wrong is wrong, that's that. 00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:51.280 And I'm trying to grow in this way myself. 00:39:51.360 --> 00:40:03.280 Because again, I think the thing is, if we say, oh, this person's evil, God'll get them, we're we're we're ignoring the opportunities we have in our in ourselves, right? 00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:08.000 And and this I think is this really interesting thing that we have as a church going on. 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:27.840 I mean, again, the churches I grew up in, if you didn't have the party line or if you asked a question that sounded doubtful, like, you know, so so like my hope is that we come together and know we're going to disagree and we choose to respect each other. 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.039 I think we were more alike in 1955. 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:47.280 And I think what's going on now is a lot of stuff is being reported or said or lied about in the media, which in the news, which back in the day they would never have said or reported. 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:50.960 You know, our residents were all adulterers. 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:52.239 You know, maybe not. 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:53.599 Eisenhower was too. 00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:55.280