WEBVTT 00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:05.599 Alright, so here we get the thrilling conclusion to the book. 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:16.000 Now I do want to point out if you want to backtrack and listen to the specific ones we've done, they're all available on the website. 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:17.199 They're already there. 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:22.719 So you can if you can't sleep at night, you can listen to this for like an hour or a pop. 00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:38.079 And um I hope, you know, I don't want to cut off thoughts, but I want to remind you that one way to read the book is at surface level, and it's very bizarre and awful. 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:53.439 And once again, we have this other opportunity, I think, to hear that this maybe even more so, and in some ways, like more readily than the rest of the Bible, is trying to describe the inner nature of things, not the outer. 00:00:53.759 --> 00:01:05.280 And in some ways, I think revelation is easier to interpret because it's so bizarre that if we can say, aha, that's about the inner nature, then it's easier to apply that. 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:18.159 I think sometimes we read stories about Jesus or stories in Genesis, and it well it sounds very much more reasonable, so we make the mistake of reading it literally. 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:23.359 Revelation does not allow you to read it literally, or else it's a horror tale. 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:25.599 Um, and and I don't think it should be. 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.079 So I hope that's an okay thing. 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:40.879 Remember, I I think the goal of all these animal pieces and symbols that it the book itself often decodes for you, often decodes them, is for you to see how things are under the surface. 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:46.079 The point of apocalyptic literature is not to confuse things, but to unveil them. 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.400 Apocalypse means unveil. 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.519 So here we are at the conclusion. 00:01:51.680 --> 00:02:00.000 Um, were there items this week or residual that continued to agitate you or encourage you? 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:03.680 Did you get a new picture of anything uh this week? 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.280 That's because it's got that paper in front of it. 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:08.639 I can fix that quickly. 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:12.240 I wanted to say that. 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.039 Well, we really didn't get it. 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:20.400 What did we say? 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:21.039 Any anybody? 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:22.000 Yeah, what do you say? 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:26.080 Oh yeah. 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:26.960 You flooded? 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:28.159 You're the street. 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:31.919 Oh, it usually does happen because it happens every time. 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:37.199 Well, not all at once. 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:39.680 Repeat yourself, I'm sorry. 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:43.120 My terrible question is always what stood out for you this week? 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:48.479 What did the readings do for you to confuse you, or did you make any new connections? 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:55.439 Well, I go back and forth on it. 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:59.840 I go back and forth when I read it, and I don't have my Bible in front of me, so I can't be specific. 00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:10.000 But it's like first of all, they say yes, he's going to forgive you for your sins, and then the next time it's all the sinners are gonna be dead, and and the other ones are gonna be stuck. 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:12.240 And so it's like, I don't know what I am. 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:13.199 I know I'm a sinner. 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:15.120 So let me see if I can help. 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:28.000 Now there's always options, and I want to point out not that I'm I'm not going to tell you the right way to read it, but I want to say there's actually you put your finger on some ambiguity, right? 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:29.840 I think there is some ambiguity. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.960 So here are some of the images that we get. 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:39.520 Death and Hades, that's death with a capital D, is going to be thrown in the lake of fire. 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:43.199 So this is a really interesting thing to think about. 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:52.479 We usually read um Lake of Fire through Dante and John Milton's eyes, which is like a place of torment. 00:03:52.960 --> 00:04:06.479 But the book is clear that the lake of fire is going to burn up death with a capital D, like incinerate it, obliterate it. 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:12.080 It is that there will be no more death with a capital D, nor will there be a Hades. 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:18.879 So Hades is like the place of the dead, or it's Sheol, it's really dark, that's going to be gone. 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:28.079 And I think we also read that if your name is not in the book of life, you will also be incinerated. 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:34.399 So the question is whose names are not in the book of life. 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:36.480 Now we've got choices. 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:43.439 And in some ways, I didn't think the book tells us um how to decide. 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:47.920 I think we're left to decide based on the rest of the themes of the book, okay? 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:57.920 So one thing we could choose is that um good people, their name is in the book of life, and bad people, they're not. 00:04:58.079 --> 00:04:59.360 So they'll be incinerated. 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:08.079 Now, if you go that way, certainly the book, I think, is saying there's not an eternal torment, you just don't exist anymore. 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:10.240 Like, you're gone. 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:13.759 Nothing to feel pain, you're just gone. 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:20.480 Um that question would be who's good enough? 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:21.680 Right? 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:25.439 Who's good enough to have their name in the book of life? 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:28.560 Christians have wondered this for a long time, right? 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:32.560 How is it that you get your name written in the book of life? 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.839 Is it something that you earn? 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:40.079 That's works, Christianity, right? 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.160 So what do you have to do to earn it? 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:43.519 More good than bad. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:47.920 Is it something that God gives that you have no control over? 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.600 Now, if you pick that, you've got two ways you can go. 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:58.319 One is with John Calvin, you can say, God's already picked, some people make it, some people don't. 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:04.079 A cute way is that number six isn't a fix, but number seven goes to heaven. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:06.560 It's arbitrary and it's numbered. 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:08.480 Now, Martin Luther believed that too. 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.439 That's called predestination and election. 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:16.319 So no one's, Martin Luther says no one's good enough to earn it. 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:17.600 And no one does. 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:19.759 God gives it to some people. 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:26.800 And we can say that's not fair, but that's from a human point of view, and our fairness matters not to God. 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:28.720 Anyway, so there you have it. 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:38.800 There's another read shared by well, a number of people who said, well, okay, it is a gift of God, and to whom does God give it? 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:40.480 Everyone. 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.079 That's called the universalist position. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:07:02.480 Um, people like um, not just our Unitarian brothers and sisters, uh, Carl Barth believed that as well, probably the most influential Protestant theologian of the 20th century was a universalist, uh, whose name is in the book of life, everybody's. 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:06.240 Now, um, then what do you do with these images of destruction? 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:17.920 Well, like with John the Baptist, um, who talks about there's a uh God is sort of at the threshing floor separating the wheat from the chaff. 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:30.399 Again, we choose are some people wheat and some people chaff and they're completely destroyed, or are our all people a mixture of wheat and chaff? 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:38.720 And what God wants to do is burn the chaff up out of us so that we can be wheat. 00:07:39.040 --> 00:08:04.319 Or to put it a different way, there's a refiner's fire in which it involves heat, it involves well, trial, frankly, but the point of the trial is not to see whether you're good enough, it's to pull the draw sound of you, and here's this lake of fire to burn up all the parts of ourselves that are getting in our own way, if that makes sense. 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:08.160 Um that was a couple of different choices. 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:12.720 And I don't think the book is very clear as to how this works. 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:17.680 I think we decide consequences of our decisions. 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:26.879 If we decide that we're no good, and some people make it and some people don't, so we better earn it. 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:36.080 Um I think we will, like Martin Luther, I mean Martin Luther really pushed that to its logical conclusion. 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.679 How can we ever know we've really done enough? 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:43.679 Which means pretty much life is going to be lived in hell. 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:46.240 But I don't think that's the point of the book. 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.159 I mean, in some ways, I think that counters the whole message. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:51.039 I think so. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:09:06.240 Um if we go with John Calvin and say, listen, it's God's gift, nobody's good enough, uh, and God gives it to some and not others, and you know, don't let that get your panties in a wad because that's God's choice and you've got no control over it. 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:08.720 I just don't even see the point of trying myself. 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:13.759 Now, John Calvin said, well, if you think that, that means that you're not one of the ones that gets there. 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:15.840 So that could be me. 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:21.840 John Calvin sort of said, you know God's picked you if you choose to persevere. 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.000 He'd like to have his cake and eat it too. 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:27.440 I mean, he he really would. 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:30.000 That's you know one of the five points of Calvinism. 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.960 The P is perseverance of the saints. 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:42.960 I think we could also make that same thought, like, oh gosh, you know, well, listen, if everybody gets there, what's the point of trying? 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:51.519 And I think the answer is there is no point in trying, there's a point in living into a larger life, God intends. 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:59.120 So living authentically is not about earning God's favor, it's because we already have it. 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.080 Now, listen, there's problems with all of those. 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:08.080 But I do want to remind you that fire is never a torture, it's always a destruction. 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:14.240 So at the very worst, people who don't make it cease to exist. 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:26.159 I have I guess in looking at this. 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:50.320 And looking at all the people that ever been doing, I get really I get a little anxious because I think, well, if right here is meant for us, how what has happened to everyone else? 00:10:51.120 --> 00:11:05.759 I guess I I don't I don't see how I can I get kind of squeamish about this because it doesn't seem right. 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:09.840 If if if I'm explaining myself. 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:10.559 Yeah. 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:16.799 And maybe I can can make this uh see if I can clarify, see if I got it right. 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:22.000 Um and I'm gonna use different words, but but see if I got it right. 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:31.440 The way the way that um a lot of Christians approach this book and frankly theology is that God has acted differently in different periods of history. 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:37.360 So in the Old Testament, people were under the law, and look, they weren't making it. 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:39.360 So Jesus offers us a new deal. 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:40.879 It's a deal of grace. 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:44.080 Good for us, but what about those people? 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:45.200 Is that what you're saying? 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:49.120 And also what about the Hindus or the people that about the Hindus? 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:54.879 Or people that passed away before before there were Jews on the face of the earth. 00:11:55.200 --> 00:12:00.159 These are great questions that it that I think invite us to think about revelation. 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:10.399 So so let me tell you the first one, and and we talked about it for a second, the first idea, I think, is one that is a Christian idea only. 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.440 I don't think any other world religion has this idea. 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:18.960 Dispensationalism. 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:36.559 If you've ever heard of the Schofield Study Bible or the Ryrie Study Bible, or if you grew up fundamentalist and read Revelation, a lot of people approach that there are different dispensations or epochs of the way that God relates with the world. 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:43.840 So, for example, there was the one of I forget, they have clever names for these and charts and maps and things like that. 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:46.320 Life or something is the first one. 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.559 Adam and Eve had this wonderful thing, but then they busted it. 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:55.360 So God said, Alright, you busted it, I'll change the deal. 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.120 And then there's law. 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:00.559 And then, wow, that's not going great. 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:02.639 So then there's grace. 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:04.559 That's Jesus. 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:17.919 Anyway, there's somehow seven of these, and uh, it used to make sense to me, but then what doesn't make sense is if God is infinite and not changing, how can God change the deal? 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:25.759 And geez, that's convenient for us that we get the grace, but those Old Testament people sucks to be them. 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.799 We just sort of decided that that was the thing. 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:31.200 Sucks to be them, and glad we're not. 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:43.200 And the diagram we use that was a little more hopeful, is that hey, all these Old Testament people had to offer these sacrifices for their sins that didn't work. 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.960 Now keep in mind, most sacrifices had nothing to do with sin. 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:53.279 The only thing that had to do with sin was on Yom Kippur when you put your hands on the scapegoat, and that was that. 00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:04.639 So what happened was the cross is here, and all the sins of the people, so we decided, were pushed forward to Jesus. 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:16.480 So Jesus bore the sin of the world, not just in his own day and for the future coming back to him, but for all the people before him, he bore all of it. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:22.559 Now, actually, not an awful idea if you think about this. 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:32.159 If the cross is infinite, that means it's always been and it always was and it always is and always will be. 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.279 So whatever happened on the cross happened forever. 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:47.279 Which sort of means, I think, against this rather, I think, foolish idea, that the cross is just that moment where we got who God was. 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:53.200 God didn't change, it was a moment where we understood. 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.080 So then Tim brought up another question. 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.559 And this is really good because you can read this in C.S. 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.480 Lewis's book, The Last Battle. 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:08.960 This is uh the end of the chronicles of Narnia, and I think I've mentioned it before. 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:15.600 Um fundamentalists really get their panties in a wad over this. 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:19.279 Sorry to use that phrase. 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.360 I should be more gender inclusive. 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:26.320 Their underwear uh start to become chafing over this. 00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:31.840 These are uh theoretically three points of view. 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:34.639 The first is the exclusivist point of view. 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:45.039 If you don't know Jesus by name and pray the sinner's prayer, oh my god, I'm worthless, but I accept you as my Lord and Savior, you're going to hell and you'll be tortured forever. 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:51.200 So, what about Aborigines in Australia who have never heard the gospel and don't know the word Jesus? 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:52.559 Well, they're going to hell. 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:59.360 Which explains why fundamentalists have so much fervor to send missionaries out. 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:02.799 So that people have a real opportunity. 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:11.360 And now, now, one of the problems with that is that if you were born Muslim in Saudi Arabia and you convert to Christianity, you will be killed. 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.879 And they just can't understand why Muslims don't want to convert so they can go to heaven. 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:18.399 Well, because they'll die. 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:20.080 I mean, they'll they'll die. 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:25.519 So they would have to hate this life, hate this life to go on to the next. 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:36.399 Now, the New Testament uses images like that, but hate this life, I think, could equally mean not like I hate living, it could mean I hate what I've settled for. 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:43.039 I hate the living we've settled for, and I choose to love life enough to live in a bigger way. 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:45.120 This is all ambiguous. 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:52.240 The Bible can support anything we come up with, including slavery and misogyny and racism. 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:53.600 You can do that. 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.840 Inclusivism is a different one. 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:02.559 Inclusivism says, listen, uh, this is sort of like what Gandhi said. 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.799 You know, Gandhi almost converted to Christianity. 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:05.759 I think this is true. 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:09.519 Now there is a saying that Gandhi may or may not have said. 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.400 I like their Christ, I don't like their Christians. 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:18.799 We don't know if Gandhi said that, but listen, whether he did or not, it doesn't have to be true to be the truth. 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:20.319 I think we all get it. 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:32.240 What Gandhi did ultimately say is that every person should be the best blank that they were sort of enculturated to be. 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:35.759 So if you are a Muslim, don't convert. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.599 Be a really good Muslim. 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.200 If you're a Hindu, be a good Hindu. 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:57.119 In so doing, Gandhi sort of had this principle when you uh when you do the best you you can where you are, in the Christian perspective, is you're actually serving Jesus whether you know his name or not. 00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.440 So in the last battle by C.S. 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:07.680 Lewis, um, there's Aslan, who's clearly the Jesus figure, and um then there's this other false god, Taz. 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:12.559 Now, Taz's biggest supporter is anti-Aslan. 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:14.319 I mean, he supports Taz. 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:22.079 When he dies, he stands in judgment before Aslan, and he's like, oh my god, I was wrong. 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.480 And Aslan said, Come on into my country. 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:26.559 No, no, no, I was serving Taz. 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.480 Yes, you were really serving me. 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:31.200 That's the inclusivist position. 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:40.559 Now, the inclusivists sort of say, Well, listen, but if you know better, then you're not gonna make it. 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:48.000 So it's somewhere in the middle because the universalist position says, God's country is wide open. 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:54.480 It would almost be like saying that the gates of Jerusalem, the heavenly city, are never closed. 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.000 Oh, wait, the book says that. 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:12.799 So you can see how the gates could be open because all the bad people have been killed, or the gates are open because they are open to everybody. 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:21.200 No, I think you can support either reading, but I think what you can't support with Revelation is that people are punished forever in torture. 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.000 Is that helpful what I've said? 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:27.519 Now, these words may not mean anything to you, depending on your background. 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:33.920 My evangelical background taught me that these are really, really important positions so that I can flatten people and say that they're wrong. 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:45.039 Like, oh, you sound like an inclusivist, you sound like a universalist, dispensationalism, you are or you're not, and it's right or you or or you're not right. 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:46.480 I mean, that's sort of how it goes. 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:51.119 Did you say revelation does not support eternal torture? 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:55.359 No, not at all, because death with a capital D is incinerated. 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:00.640 Now remember, death with a small D is not incinerated. 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:01.440 It's not. 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:08.480 Death with a capital D, like separation from God, is burned up forever. 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.319 So um, Lion and I have talked about this just a little bit. 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:16.720 At the quantum level, all things are connected. 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:23.759 Which means we have experiences of being disconnected, but we never are. 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:30.240 Somebody could be cruel to you and you will experience disconnection, but actually you're not. 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.759 And I and I've read philosophers who don't refer to quantum mechanics. 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:38.160 I mean, the truth is, you're actually very connected at that point of injury. 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:40.960 It just feels awful. 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:49.599 I don't think the book challenges that. 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:52.640 In fact, I think the book upholds that. 00:20:54.720 --> 00:21:01.359 So we I I don't know how to answer your question other than to say we choose our own adventure. 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:17.519 And I think what's really, really important is that sometimes uh we settle, we say, oh, the words mean this, but in general that's what we've been told that they mean, not what they actually seem to be pointing to. 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:30.079 And I think our criterion is, you know, when we read the scriptures, we can dial in on a phrase or a paragraph and use that to support a notion we've already been given. 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:40.559 But, you know, again, I I put to you Jesus on the cross in Luke says, God forgive them, they don't know what they're doing. 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:49.839 Well, that's pretty, well, at least inclusivist, I think that's pretty universalist to tell you the truth. 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:53.119 That at our worst, we don't know what we're doing. 00:21:53.440 --> 00:22:01.599 It's not that we're intentionally separating people from God, we think that's How we're supposed to be. 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:04.960 For whatever reason. 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:17.759 Of course, we could read Matthew, where if you don't have righteousness better than the Pharisees, you don't have the kingdom of God. 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.079 Why are they so different? 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:24.480 Actually, I think they're really similar. 00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:28.559 Because righteousness doesn't mean piety, it means justice. 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:32.640 And if we don't live into justice, we're not living into the kingdom of God. 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:34.640 Our choice. 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:37.279 What happens when we die? 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.279 That's the big confusion, right? 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:43.440 So you didn't live into the kingdom of God while you're alive. 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:51.279 Either God destroys you utterly, or God says, welcome to the kingdom you've always missed out on. 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:25.039 Is there a is there anywhere in Revelation where there is a period where God that if you have been an unbeliever or a bad guy or an ad or a father or whatever, that somehow you see the light after you die? 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:28.480 I mean, I didn't think all that's clear. 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:32.559 I think it's predicated on what we bring to the book, not what the book offers us. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.400 I mean, again, God dwells among mortals, read that this week. 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:40.079 New Jerusalem comes down to earth, we don't go up to heaven. 00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:44.960 So the whole idea about rapture taking us away from the world, I think is poppycock. 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:52.079 The book that rapture is based on so much has a counterclaim about it. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.279 So what about bad folk? 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:03.920 Well, again, I think it just comes down to listen, the the gates of Jerusalem are always open. 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:14.640 The gates of the heavenly city never close, and the gates of the heavenly city, which is here on earth, we don't need the sun for illumination. 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:16.160 God will be our light. 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:21.440 There's no tree of life, and well, there's no tree of knowledge anymore. 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:25.839 Now there's just the tree of life, and there's a river that flows out. 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:34.000 Revelation gives us those images, not I think these other ones that are about picking and choosing. 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.400 I mean, what happens to the beast? 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:51.599 We could choose that the beast is like human beings at their worst, and they get thrown into the lake of fire and they're gone, or we could choose to read that the beastliness of humanity is thrown into the lake and incinerated. 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:58.799 So is it the beast in and of him or herself, or is it the beastliness? 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:02.640 These are choices that we make. 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:08.319 Now listen, either way we pick, the book is really clear, I think, in its imagery. 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.279 There's not eternal torment for Adolf Hitler. 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:13.839 If he didn't make it, he just didn't make it. 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:28.160 There is um in in in heaven coming down to earth. 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:35.440 There is a book in the angel in the bishop's name. 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:41.519 I didn't know that. 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:41.839 C. 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:42.079 S. 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.160 Lewis read a book, Surprise by Joy. 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:47.759 This came out probably three or four years ago. 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:48.400 Oh. 00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:02.319 I mean I mean a video with four or five or something on it, which is very, very good. 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:08.079 And and and also one of the book calls by the title. 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:11.200 I don't know. 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:15.359 But I uh I also don't read as much as I used to. 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:21.839 Okay. 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:23.839 Did I touch a nerve here? 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.160 I mean it's by N.T. 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:31.440 Wright, who is not just a bishop, but like kind of a scholar. 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.519 I mean he writes scholarly books. 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:46.799 I know I just gave a long monologue, and you're welcome to agree or disagree or titrate those points. 00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:52.960 I mean, really, um what do you all what do you all think? 00:26:53.759 --> 00:27:00.079 Well there's there's so much in your monologue or in all of this. 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:11.440 Um I I don't, you know, it's for me anyway, it's it's hard to break it, to separate it a little bit. 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:22.160 Because it also it takes also self-searching you know to because it's not just intellectual. 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:23.119 Yeah. 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:24.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:44.079 No, I think I I think in the last couple of times, I think we're so we're carrying so much baggage about what this means, that to make some of these conversions I'm offering to think about, we have to convert a whole lot of what we've already been told everything means. 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.960 In some ways, this this book is like a keystone to our whole theology. 00:27:49.759 --> 00:28:01.039 And so uh it's really hard to say, oh, it just means that, because we have to really decide that a lot of what we've decided is variable. 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:12.960 And and some of this, I think, going back to what I'd said at the beginning, in some ways Revelation is easier to read at the symbolic level because it's so symbolic. 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:23.839 But we often forget that, hey, when Revelation says there will be no more sea, it doesn't mean that there'll be some kind of scorching heat that will dry up the oceans. 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:27.200 It means chaos itself will be gone. 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:35.680 Okay, well that's okay in that book, but when Jesus walks on the water, is the story about him walking on the water really? 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:41.200 Or is the story about him walking on top of chaos and not being submerged in it? 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:43.920 Well, Mike, that's a different story. 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:44.640 Is it? 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:57.200 That's what I mean about when we start to take one symbol, the question is, how much do we let it integrate into the rest of our reading? 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:03.279 Um it's really hard, I think, to say, well, I'll do this here and I won't do that there. 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:06.319 Maybe the whole point is that we do it everywhere. 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:13.839 We can reduce these stories to historical facts like George Washington crossing the Delaware. 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:21.839 I don't mean to dispute the historicity of them, but I don't think these stories are about history in the factual sense at all. 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:30.960 I think the point of the whole book actually is to unveil what's underneath the surface, which is why we keep it. 00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:36.480 We keep it because it offers an unveiling instead of a description. 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.400 I don't know if that makes sense what I'm saying. 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:42.799 No, no, yeah, that that makes sense. 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:52.160 Because I it's interesting that you you mentioned something about the capitals, because at one point when I I was reading it aloud to Tim, and then we were taking turns reading it back and forth. 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:58.240 And I said, wait a minute, why is it capital here and right here and it's not there? 00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:00.559 And sometimes it's in the same sentence. 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:05.680 That's because the translators have made an interpretive choice on your behalf. 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:12.000 Which, yeah, which, yes, that that that intellectually you you figure that. 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:12.640 Yeah. 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.559 But um, you know what? 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:19.599 I I I I I just realized I I meant to I meant to translate this into Catholic speech. 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:21.599 This is fundamentalist speech. 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:24.240 Let me see if I can translate this into Catholic for you. 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:24.799 Okay. 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.720 Do you know what happened in 1964? 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:31.920 The Vatican II. 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:39.119 The Vatican II conference, which is a real shocker because they elected this Pope that they thought was just going to die and not do anything. 00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:47.599 And he he called the first ecumenical council in like, I don't know, like 150 years, and brought the Catholic Church into the 19th century. 00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:52.480 And prior to this year, here's what happened. 00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:53.680 Mike, wait a second. 00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:54.400 Yes, sir. 00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.200 Because I either you made a mistake or you did it on purpose. 00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:58.400 Oh, I did it on purpose. 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:05.039 In the 19th century, Vatican II brought the Romans into the 18th century. 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:07.680 Into the 1800s. 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:12.799 Prior to Vatican II, Roman Catholics were exclusivist. 00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:15.440 If you weren't Roman Catholic, you were going to hell. 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:16.640 Period, done. 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:20.400 If you were Greek Orthodox, you were going to hell, period, done. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:26.160 If you were um Ethiopic or Protestant, going to hell, done. 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:28.880 Catholics had the reign on who God was. 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:36.240 Which is why you'd better not marry a non-Catholic really hard. 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:45.519 And I'll just say, as a Catholic, you also um were very rigid about what you believed. 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:50.880 Well, it's not just who joined you, but also what you did. 00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:54.640 You I you know I went to Catholic school first Friday of every month. 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:55.759 We went to confession. 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:59.599 I mean, the 400 kids that went there just lined up from Kinder. 00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:02.400 Well, but not from Kinder once you got the first school community. 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:09.599 But does that and then at the door, I you guys were raised Catholic, that's every Catholic door. 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:13.920 There was a list of movies that you could see and couldn't see. 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:14.480 Yeah. 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:15.599 Yeah. 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:21.599 Now I want you to know I want you to know that this has not changed for everybody. 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:26.319 I still know plenty of Catholic folk, and that is still their approach. 00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:31.359 It's not just that you gotta be Catholic to get it right, you've got to really be Catholic. 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:39.039 And they'll tell you when to eat fish and when to eat meat, and they'll tell you when to genuflect and cross yourself and when not. 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:42.880 You better not mess that up because there's an exclusive one way. 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:46.480 Vatican II changed it a bit. 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:48.799 Not everybody knows this. 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.680 And it didn't change it like, oh, I'm okay, you're okay, it's all good. 00:32:53.839 --> 00:33:02.640 What happened was there is some inclusivity, some, but the doctrine of Vatican II says we're on a ladder to heaven. 00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:07.279 You may say, Mike, I don't know that, so it's not the case. 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:09.599 This is the case. 00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:12.720 Guess who's on the top rung of the ladder to heaven? 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.359 Well, the Romans, of course. 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.039 The Roman Catholics. 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:19.759 They're on the ladder to heaven, they're on the top. 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.079 Now, lots of other people are on the ladder. 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:27.119 This is the goodish news for them. 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:34.400 Well, because there's like the Orthodox people, and they're wrong, but they're just maybe a little wrong. 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.039 And this Protestants. 00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.759 And I mean, you know, they're they're up there. 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:46.720 I mean, they're down from there, but you know, it's okay. 00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:48.640 You know, they're uh whatever. 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:55.119 Well, and then you got Jews and Muslims and then miscellaneous, basically, just to give you that idea. 00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:04.559 So I mean, yeah, they can make it, depends on how they live. 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:05.599 You see. 00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:13.760 The depend is really just a a mitigated risk of exclusivism. 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:24.159 Now, you can buy this, but you still have exclusive claims about which spiritual practices are better than others. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:27.679 So this doesn't get you out of the rules. 00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:35.280 This just sort of says, I'm going to live like this, but I'm going to hope God is gracious. 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:37.760 Does that make sense? 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.119 When you're in this position, you don't have hope for other people. 00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:43.679 They better do the right thing. 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:45.679 Yeah. 00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.760 At least the first three are all baptized. 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.800 Yeah, of course, and they're but the Well, maybe. 00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:55.519 Now, maybe. 00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:57.440 Now, some Protestant people didn't do that. 00:34:58.079 --> 00:34:59.679 Well, like in general. 00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:00.079 Yeah. 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.400 In general, those people are baptized. 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:02.800 Yep. 00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:04.480 The people underneath. 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.760 The Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists, they're not. 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.719 Well, now Hindu people baptize is not in the name of Jesus, yeah. 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.559 Go in too much too many details. 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.440 And by the way, Vatican II wouldn't appreciate what I'm saying. 00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:24.559 They wouldn't say there's any similarity between immersing yourself in the Ganga and getting baptized by a priest. 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:39.760 But I guess my point is, is if if they are, if you're not baptized in the way we baptize, whether you be Protestant, Orthodox, or Roman, you don't stand a chance. 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:40.719 Well, you do. 00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:41.920 You're on the ladder. 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:52.960 But how can you be on the I thought, forgive me, Catholics, I thought if you weren't baptized, even if you were born, died, not baptized. 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:53.840 You didn't go to heaven. 00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:56.800 Do you know the Vatican II doctrine? 00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:58.159