The Brooks Show

The Oklahoma 2026 Governor's Race: Charles McCall

• Brooks Antle

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:25:19

In this episode of The Brooks Show, we sit down with Oklahoma House Speaker Charles McCall to discuss his campaign for Governor of Oklahoma. We cover the issues facing our state, his vision for Oklahoma's future, his priorities as a candidate, and what he hopes to accomplish if elected governor.

Whether you're already following the governor's race or simply want to learn more about the candidates seeking Oklahoma's highest office, this interview offers an opportunity to hear directly from Charles McCall about his plans and goals for the state.

Follow The Brooks Show:

📺 YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@TheBrooksShow-v3f

📘 Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61588019553268

📸 Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/thebrooksashow

𝕏 X (Twitter):
https://x.com/thebrooksashow

Don't forget to like, comment, share, and subscribe. Your support helps us continue bringing important conversations and local content to Oklahomans across the state.

#TheBrooksShow #CharlesMcCall #OklahomaGovernor #OklahomaPolitics #Oklahoma #GovernorRace #Podcast #Interview

SPEAKER_01

Hey, most coffee companies tell you their beans are premium. Mine actually are. This is Rediron Coffee. It's high-quality, single-origin Colombian beans, roasted by guys who have pulled enough overnight shifts to know what coffee's supposed to do. So, if you are like me and you love your caffeine, go on down to Rediron Coffee, pick yourself up some today. That's RedironCoffee.com. Like I said, that's RedironCoffee.com. Yes, sir. Pleasure. I want to start out with a little bit of an introduction, if you don't mind. Travels McCall, a former speaker of the Oklahoma House of Representatives, where he served until 2025. For over a decade, he played a key role in passing tax reforms and supporting small businesses. In addition to his public service, he's the president and CEO of Ameristate Bank, a fourth generation family-owned bank in Atoka, Oklahoma, where he's expanded financial services to rural communities. Outside of work, he's a devoted husband and father of two, an active member of his church, and he's been deeply involved in community development projects working to boost infrastructure and education across the state. So is there anything you'd like to add to that?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, well, thank you for this nice introduction. I I kind of consider myself just uh an everyday Oklahoma guy, a guy from small town of Atoka, where I still live. And um I think we live in the best state in the nation. I think we have the best people and excited to run for governor because I think got a lot of opportunity to make some big strides forward uh for the people in the state. And and um Oklahoma's really kind of an exciting place to be. So um great to be with you today.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And before we get started, give you a little gift here. Oh, really? Yes, sir. Hey, fantastic. Thank you. Absolutely. So um hey, how about that? Yeah, so me and another fireman, we run the little uh coffee company. It's called Red Iron Coffee, it's made by firemen. Um so every bag's fresh and uh it smells great. Yeah, absolutely. It's um we do all the roasting, grinding, and packaging. So that's fantastic. So if you're a coffee drinker, oh yeah, hope you like it. Yes, sir. Absolutely. We can always get you more.

SPEAKER_00

And I've and I've learned to consume a lot more during this campaign. I tell you, it's long days and they're great, but you I love I love coffee and I love the caffeine within it too.

SPEAKER_01

Good. Well, I'm glad to hear that.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, sir. So I kind of want to get to um get a little backstory.

SPEAKER_00

Where did you grow up? Yeah, I've I've was um I've always lived in Atoka. That's where I was um that's where I was uh lived all my life. Um grew up there, just a it's a small rural community. Uh if you go to Atoka, that's a great, great little city, great community. If you go to Atoka, it it looks fairly good size because you've got major U.S. highway that you know comes right through town. And we've got about 3,500 people in the city limits and about 15,000 in the in the county. Not super big by you know by metrics, but it's great. Great people. Um growing up there, it was just a it was a community where it didn't matter where you lived in town, didn't matter what your uh your parents did for a living. You know, the kids just were friends and you hung out and you, you know, and you just uh just it's just a good it was just a great place to grow up. I loved it so much that I want to go back and do our family's business and and raise my family there. So it's um yeah, it's it's been great. Stephanie and I um still live there today. That's where we call home, and we've been there for uh married for 32 years, is coming up on 33 here in just a f in a in a few. So awesome, awesome. Do you play any sports or anything like that? Yeah, I love sports. Um played them all as a kid, uh growing up. I I mean really I was I had two great parents and the um we they had us involved in everything, and but sports was something that I enjoyed to do, enjoyed doing and played everything from you know, t ball, baby, baseball, basketball, track, football. Loved all those. Um eventually got to where basket, you know, I've in my high school I knew uh basketball is what I've enjoyed the most and wanted to play college sports, and that's kind of what I was focused on and and stuck with after my freshman year. But you learned, you know, sports teaches you a lot about teamwork, um about uh collaboration, about work, uh uh work ethic, and and you you learn a lot of things about um in terms of carry you through life. Um every organization takes uh collaboration and team building. And you also have to you also learn that you can't be any better than the weakest chain's not as it's only as strong as the weakest link in it. So as an individual, you gotta you know push yourself, you gotta work, um, try to be excellent at what you do. And so whatever team you're plugged into, you know, you are you know, you're you're doing your part to uh maximize and reach your potential and reach those goals and outcomes. And you know, state championship is you know what we were always striving for when I was playing basketball. So basketball kind of your main sport. Yeah, that's what I love. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I enjoy I enjoy watching football as an adult. I enjoy football in tur in terms of watching the sport uh probably more. But as an athlete and and playing sports, uh basketball was was uh the one that I really loved to play.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You said uh as a freshman, you um looked at, you know, the thought was going to play college. Do you play college anyway?

SPEAKER_00

I wanted to. I was really set, uh could have played NAI, NAIA um uh level uh and had had the opportunity to do that. But I really wanted to be at Division I um school and academically. My father played at TCU uh basketball, and he, you know, he always he said it was a job, you know. But I ended up going to the University of Oklahoma, and uh I did not uh uh did not get to play basketball there. They had some great players while I was there. Had a chance to play a pickup game with the 15th suit at OU. And uh I'd like, hey, I'm gonna guard this guy, I'm gonna play with this guy, and I'm gonna find out just how good the 15th. What's this guy made of? Yeah, you know, I mean the guy that gets to play last. Turns out the 15th guy is still pretty good. Yeah, still really good. No doubt. So, but anyway, we had a we had a great run at OU and uh still got to play some intermural ball in the the uh interf uh intramural and uh interfraternity uh leagues. And um, but you know, I've I wish I'd had the the size and the talent to play division one, but um that's how it worked out for me and in the rearview mirror mirror, it's uh it's all worked out pretty well.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

What was your studies there? My studies, um, you know, it's interesting. Our family's in banking. So my dad really discouraged me from uh just defaulting to our family business. He said, Hey, I don't want you taking any business classes. I want you to take a variety of classes, find out what you like, where you know, what you're built for, what you love. You know, you should go go chase your dreams, you know. And um and so that's what I did. And I took a lot of classes and you know, he gave me his recommendations on maybe what I he thought I should do. But um taking those classes, I felt I you know, I found out that I was really good about you know, I love people, relationships, um, with and I was really good and love finance and uh was kind of geared wired towards kind of towards business. So ultimately came back around to that and focused um was uh I was in the college of business at OU, uh received a BBA. Um I studied the main discipline that I studied within the business college of business was finance, and also did um uh study a lot of economics as well. And so that um and I just determined I wanted to go into banking and I returned home um 1992. I was at the University of Oklahoma 1988 to 1992. Returned home to family business, uh met my wife, Stephanie, on a blind date at the University of Oklahoma, thought it would be a really bad evening, quite honestly. I can't imagine what she was thinking. Why's that? Yeah, well, you know, I mean, it's just we both uh uh so she had a sorority sister and I had a fraternity brother that were dating. Can I ask what fraternity? Uh uh I was a member, my fraternity's not on campus anymore. Oh, okay. But uh I was a member of of Delta Upsilon, okay, University of Oklahoma, which had a lot of attorneys and doctors and bankers in it, as it turns out, business people, but um they uh neither one of us were neither one of us were planning on being on campus for the first football game of the season, home game. It's campus-wide, it's considered, you know, victory party. And neither one of us had planned to be there that that weekend, and then our our uh plans changed. And so, you know, you thought it was going to be a bad, you know, not a not a great thing because everybody had already had a date for Victory Party. I mean, it's the it was the big one on campus. Right. But not the two of us. So anyway, uh we got we got paired up on a blind date, and it turned out to be, you know, great. It seems like it worked out. It did, and we just continued to date from there, and and we dated uh uh three years, three months, and three days, and we were we were married, and Stephanie's greatest blessing in my life. Uh, she's originally from Chickashay, Brady County, here in Oklahoma. Uh she's uh from a wonderful family, uh one other sibling, and um I moved her, I moved to we moved back to Atoka to make our home, had two sons, Chase, and who's another Charles in the family, and our youngest is Carson, uh both recent graduates of uh University of Oklahoma. And and so we're you know, I can kind of to a great extent a a lot of a lot of great things that have happened to me um in my career, I can kind of trace back to that time while I was at the University of Oklahoma. So um we're that's how uh Stephanie and I became uh married and started our family, and and now we're kind of in this new season of life where we're empty nesters and our kids are off uh scratching out a living on their own. It's kind of it's kind of nice. So this campaign, Brooke, I've been able to uh my oldest son lives in Normand, and so now I've just I've just started staying there, you know, uh when we're uh in the area, and it's kind of fun to freeload off your kids. Yeah, because they've been freeloading off me for decades. A little payback. It is, it's it's fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh and plus I get to see get to see them. So that's awesome. So you said after you got uh after you left OU and uh graduated there, went into the banking side of things, went to the family business.

SPEAKER_00

I did, yeah. I went on and did the graduate school of banking at the University of Colorado, which is a very specific banking pro uh program. They've they've got a few options around the country. I chose the University of Colorado at uh at the time it had and probably still is today, uh, one of the better programs. And um went there, but I've been in banking for 34 years. I stepped down, uh I ran for office. Um my dad encouraged me to run for city council. I didn't want to do it, but I did. It was an open seat, and he said, Always you're a businessman, don't ever run for public office unless the seat's open. I said, Why? And he said, Because if there's an incumbent in the seat, even if you win, you lose. You're you're a small town business guy. The incumbent will always have people who liked them, who loved them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh you beat the incumbent, there the people who love them, they will work against you. They won't give you a chance. Yeah. And um so and that makes it hard to be effective. Yeah. That makes it worth your time. So it's an insightful piece of knowledge. Yeah, that was very it's great, great advice. I mean, every time I listen to my dad, I've done well. And the times that I've gone out to and not taking his advice, I've I've proved him to be right, you know, the hard way. Oh, yeah. But he gave me that piece of advice, and it kind of spurred me into um go ahead and running, even though I thought it was the wrong time in my life. And I told him it wasn't the right time personally. You know, I had one child, a second one on the way, and and Stephanie and I were still trying to build a life, you know, make a house payment. How are we gonna, you know, how are we gonna feed another child? And and uh, you know, those are the things just you you focus on. And uh he said, no, but you know, listen, somebody's gonna win this seat and it they'll be able to keep it as long as they want to. So you should run now. I did, and uh, it was a contested seat, just like he predicted it would be. Yeah. Um, but when the seat's open, you're not really running against anybody. You're running for the seat, they're running for the seat. If there's an incumbent that holds the seat, it's personal, you know. You're running, you know, it's it's it's it's totally different. So great piece of advice. One a year later, um, our mayor decided not to run for re-election, and a group asked me to run for that and had to go back and talk to Stephanie and say, now, honey, I know I told you a year ago, but this has come open and and I'm being encouraged to run for it. Another contested seat ran one and was mayor for seven years. Um at that time, our city, our state rep um for House District 20 termed out. And some people thought I had done a good job as mayor and should run to represent us uh for House District 20. Got re thought about that. We got redistricted and put into House District 22. And um they had a sitting representative who had six years remaining. I said, there's there's my answer. We don't this is not the right time to run. There's an incumbent. But the incumbent, just a few weeks before filing, announced that he would not seek re-election, and we went ahead and decided to file.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So I ran. Uh there never been a Republican elected as House District 22 in state history. Uh lived in the wrong part of the district, really, to win win. I lived on the edge of it. It was a hard go, toughest thing I've ever done, um, public service-wise. Even it even feels tougher the way I remember it. It feels tougher than than this gubernatorial run. Well gave what gave you the passion to to pursue that. You know, my dad told me, you know, first day on the job, you know, I came back to work. I really was passionate about going back and working for our company. You know, he said, you know, Charles, I'm you know, it's I'm thrilled that you decided to come back. Um but I wanted wanted you to find your what you wanted to do. Didn't want to push this on you. But he said, Listen, if you want to be successful at this, what we do in community banking, you got to go make someone else successful first. You've got to go invest in somebody and work with them to help them become successful in their business. Right. And if they do, if they do well, you'll be okay. But if your customer in the communities that we serve, if they fail, we fail. And so it's very simple and business approach. But that also kind of spills over that runs very parallel in my estimation, my view, of public service. Uh being a mayor, state rep, speaker of the house, now running for governor, some people will say, well, you're, you know, they refer to it as politics. I really don't see it as politics. I see it as I'm a private sector business guy, um, and it's public service. Somebody needs to do it because we need just need to set the right environment for people, families, and business to do well. Once again, if if that happens, everybody's gonna do do great. Our state's gonna do great. Right. Our state, just like a bank, cannot outperform the people and the communities within it. We've got to be focused on making things better for people across the state at the state level so that we all have a all have a chance to see our our children and our businesses do better than what our our parents get to experience.

SPEAKER_01

It seems like it was uh kind of a natural role for you going into the uh public service.

SPEAKER_00

It seems like you just you really Well, I wouldn't it didn't feel like a natural thing. But it feels like you kind of, you know Yeah, I mean I but there's very much a similarity there. But that was never my my gift. I mean, I you know, I'm my faith is very important to me. Uh my parents had me in church growing up every time the doors were open. Um I came to know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior at seven years old.

SPEAKER_01

And um can you can you take us through that a little bit? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

What was that like? Um you know, I it's it's just kind of um, you know, it's just it it's uh you go to church, uh you go to Sunday school, um, and then somewhere along the way you you have a um you kind of have a spiritual awakening, and you have a something that speaks to you and that you've got uh uh you're a sinner. Yeah you know, you are uh you were born into it. Yeah um and uh you're spiritually dead, and there's there's one path to eternal life, and that's that's through Jesus Christ. And only because of his of his uh his sacrifice and uh living a perfect life and and um and shedding his blood for for the remission of of my sins, and and I've got it got the opportunity to to be reconciled with God and and and and have it have eternal life in the future.

SPEAKER_01

I'm just extremely impressed at you know that young of an age you came to that realization, you know, at seven years old, I was probably out throwing rocks at windows or something, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm a boy too. I had my fair share of you know, shooting windows out with BB guns and rocks, absolutely dirt bike wrecks, and you know, and some mischief as well. And and uh certainly some bad decisions uh along the way, but you know, nothing nothing of uh of uh you know that really can derail a young person's life and and limit what they can do. And so my parents were great uh at kind of keeping me, you know, wrangled in. But you know, but once you, you know, you accept Jesus and you're baptized and you know, but then then your spiritual journey starts and it's a new life, and you're still trying to find answers.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I always, you know, I've listened to so many sermons about, you know, growing up and as a youth about what Jesus, you know, what God's gonna call you to do and and finding purpose in your life. And I just remember sitting in the pews saying, you know, I God, I mean, what are you gonna have me do? You know, I don't like public speaking. I I don't want to be, I don't want to be, you know, don't call me into missions. Don't call me to pastor a church. I mean, that's the scariest thing I could think of, standing up in front of a a congregation and and um It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01

A lot of the successful people I've been able to meet and talk to, a lot of them had that same realization or that same type of um journey, as you will, of you know, what they don't want to do is ends up what they're called to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I mean, as it turns out, you know, you know, God has a you know has a great sense of humor and and uh there's a lot of irony. Um but I think more importantly, you find purpose in the things that you're not naturally gifted in. And that is it's kind of a cool experience because When you do, um, when you kind of surrender to it and you step out in faith and say, Man, I am not equipped to do this. And and God, you are gonna have to, you know, you're gonna have to show me. I need you to be with me. I need you to, you know, give me the things I know I don't have to do this. You know, I'm I'm weak or I'm limited in this. And um, it's pretty cool to see him do it. And and you know when it happens, you know you didn't do it. You you you just didn't have the you didn't have the skill set, you didn't have the natural talent to do it, but he equips you and he carries you. And I have seen some really rough times. Uh when I became the speaker of the house, it was the worst time in history to become the speaker. I mean, failing economy, no reserves, uh teachers, you know, education hadn't been invested in significantly in a long time. Teachers hadn't had a pay raise in 10 years, and people wanted them to have one.

SPEAKER_01

And um, so what what's that like coming into a situation like that? I mean, how much thought and prayer and stress and anxiety comes with that?

SPEAKER_00

You know, it's so much like the this running for governor. And um, I you know, I look back now and I'm like, okay, I I I see these experiences are equipping me for something else. Um, but but God brought you through it. You give him the credit and give him the glory for it, because you you know it wasn't it wasn't you, um, but he increases your faith and and he's uh and and he prepares you for some bigger challenge. And there's gonna be some big challenges, but but you go in and uh you experience the storms, the storm was not just an economic crisis. I mean, the economy moves up and down, and and in Oklahoma at that time there were very very big swings. Yeah. We worked a lot to kind of smooth those things out. But at the same time, there's there's kind of this um, there is uh those things in the physical realm, the day-to-day things that we live, those challenges with with uh family, but there's also a there's also a spiritual battle every day, too. And I mean, you know, the the hearts, souls, and minds of our youth are being f fought over every day um in that realm as well. But you know, it's not just the economic storms during the same time. My mom, who's the greatest Christian woman I've ever known, uh the Lord called her home within 30 days of me being seated as speaker of the house. Not not a not a great thing um happened in your life, especially when you're going into uh that kind of situation. Um we had a teacher walkout uh during that's during that two-year cycle, uh, which was which was uh I mean it turns things into a pr pressure cooker. And during the teacher walkout, my wife called and she got diagnosed that she had breast cancer. And I remember just, I mean, everything that you know wasn't right and could go wrong, it felt like it was. Yeah. And it just more pressure. Um, but I remember just stopping the day I got that call and just praying and uh kind of looking up towards the heavens and saying, Lord, I've you know, uh of course, you know, something like you know, it's just one negative thing after another, but I believe I know you're with me and I know you um can deliver me. I can't see it, but I'm I I believe that it it'll it's gonna happen. I'm just gonna take it one day at a time. And and he did. He delivered. We got the we got the teacher pay raise done, we got the economy turned around. Um my wife went through uh pretty radical surgeries during the during the the uh that time at the Capitol, but we got that session shut down, and my wife has made a full recovery. She's seven years cancer free, praise the Lord. Um so we're um, you know, life is about um, you know, your spiritual journey and your and your your life with Christ and finding that purpose and where he wants to put you on it. I I really see, I really believe he put me on the path of public service. Yeah. And I would have never and I can tell you, I would have never have picked it. Yeah. It's I wouldn't have picked it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, you're the clay and he's the potter. Yeah. Yeah. Molds you into things that you might not know you'll be uh molded into.

SPEAKER_00

But the chapters, uh, you know, there's there's trials and tribulation, but there's uh there's always victory and in uh and uh through your faith and just hanging in there and he's writing a new chapter all the time.

SPEAKER_01

So Yeah, absolutely. So after being Speaker of the House, what what uh what kind of pushed you to throwing your hat in the ring for governor?

SPEAKER_00

That's a good question. I I had a I got to see the worst of times and the best of times while I was Speaker of the House. And and if you and I got to serve I got to serve as Speaker longer than anyone in state's history, and that's before term limits or since term limits have been imposed, and probably no one will ever break be able to, you know, match or or break that record. So you know, it's it's a it's one thing to say. You know, if you're this when I left the speaker's office, gosh, it's such a hard job. Um and if you can leave the speaker's office, you know, kind of still standing and you know, and a lot of speakers, things their life got bad. Um and uh but things were really good. And people don't remember how things were when you started, they remember how things were when you ended. Couldn't have been better for me. And it was it was a great opportunity to exit and just say, hey, I've done my my public service. But um after I termed out, and my term ended in twenty-four, November of twenty-four. We've um you know, there was just a a compelling conviction to to run for governor. And I we prayed about it because we know what the we knew what it was going to mean if we did. But I spent eight years as the speaker trying to fix a broken economy, and we did that and catch up on a lot of things in the state. Everything from education to roads and bridges, you know, law enforcement.

SPEAKER_01

What do you what was the reason you think for that broken economy? Where were what were the things that went wrong before you came into that seat?

SPEAKER_00

Well, we had we we just we didn't have a the economy was just not diversified as much as it is now. Um oil and gas and agriculture have kind of been our our two big industries historically in the state, and they've been great. State was built on cattle, agriculture, and oil and gas, no question about. That's our main staple. But since but we've also diversified further into aerospace and tourism and now technology is a big opportunity uh for us in the state of Oklahoma. But the biggest thing that happened was we started changing the way that our our tax structure in the state of Oklahoma. We started lowering taxes on people in business, and we did it incrementally. But that's what supercharged our economy. And for instance, the budget, the appropriated budget in 2017, my first one as Speaker of the House, it was a bad economy, was six billion dollars. In 2024, the last budget I passed, uh, we passed. It was 18.2 billion, three times, three times larger. And and some people will say, Well, hey, you're a Republican, didn't you just didn't you just grow government? Like, no, we we didn't. Right. We actually lowered taxes on businesses and people. And what they did was they just spent the money you left in their pocket and it grew the economy. And then from there, when taxation comes down and your tax overall tax structure for business gets better, now you've got businesses that coming to the state of Oklahoma. You've got people who are now moving here. We're the 10th fastest growing state, uh, rumored to be the eighth fastest as well. So that's kind of what changed. And so that's what I want to do as governor. Um, we're on the cusp of taking big strides forward. We caught up a lot of things, and we still have challenges. Um, Texas is bringing six lanes of infrastructure to the Red River where I where I live, both on the I-35 corridor as well as the U.S. US 7569 corridor. We're not ready for it. It's going to take more money to keep up the roads that we have because we got more traffic on them today than we had last year and certainly 10 years ago. But this key to it, being able to meet those challenges, education, roads and bridge investment, health care, mental health, law enforcement, uh, fire and safety, is having a growing economy. When you have an economy that's doubling and tripling its output every five years, you're going to have the resources you need to make Oklahoma better from an investment standpoint. What we can't do is go back to 2016, 2015, where you have an economy that's being choked by poor tax structure in this state and a lack of diversification. And for instance, you know, the Tax Foundation had us ranked 40th when I came in to the Speaker's office. There's only 10 states in the country in their estimation. They're nonpartisan. They don't care if you're Democrat controlled, Republican controlled, independent controlled. They just look at tax structure and rate you. Um, but there's only 10 states that had, we're only better than 10 states at that time. In 2024, when I left, we're 18th. You know, you you change things for business, you change things for people. Now people want to come here. We do have a low cost of, we are a low cost of living state, which helps.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But um you've got to continually to set that right environment. It's it goes back to what my dad told me, and we and I proved that out as speaker of the house. You set the right environment for people and business uh to flourish, and it shows up. You you all of a sudden you've got you've got the revenue. You've got three times as much, all with a lower tax burden on the people. I love that situation. I want to get back, want us to get back there as governor. And um, we've got those challenges ahead of us, but we've got to have somebody that knows how to set the right recipe for our for our state to continue to take those big, big steps. Yeah. And we're we're competing with some, you know, the only states out there that do better than us, really, um, the correlation with them is zero personal income tax. I don't want to be like Texas that has high ad valorum tax, but zero personal income tax. I want to be like Tennessee or Florida.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

They have zero, but with low, low property taxes. So, you know, we, you know, discussing a little bit before we started the podcast, you know, we both come from rural parts of the state. Our families uh do some agriculture, um, have some agricultural operations. You know, we cannot let property taxes get high in this in this state. We've got to keep them low. And right now, the people of the state, their rep their incomes have not kept up with inflation. Right. And so, you know, one of the biggest, you know, you've got we've got to keep Oklahoma affordable. We've got rate our utility costs are creeping up, insurance rates are have really skyrocketed. Yeah. We've got to we've got to go in and do some common sense things to stabilize, bring those things down for people. Um I want to see a freeze on property taxes for people of the state, everybody, for three years. Just give them a chance to breathe, let their income catch up. But we should keep those, that freeze, I believe, uh permanent for people ages 62 and older. And really, we need to find a way to repeal property taxes for uh seniors, retirees, and veterans in the state of Oklahoma. Um you've gotta you've gotta be careful how you do that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was what the process would look like of doing something like that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because the advil uh it's it's a uh it's really good political theater when you're running for a state office to say No taxes. No tax yeah, no property tax. No property tax. Right? Um it's it's easy to say that because the state doesn't get a penny of it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

All advalorum in the state stays at the local county where it's collected.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

80% of it goes to your schools, 20% of it goes to your funds your county government. And that's gonna be, you know, county government is, you know, that's your sheriffs, that's your fire departments, uh that could be hospitals, I mean, that could be a lot of things. Uh roads, county roads, and bridges. And so, you know, you can't go out and say, oh, let's just repeal this carte blanche, because you're gonna basically gonna be def defunding those things.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, like I I had saw, I'd recently been looking at it, that uh I think it was 82 percent of the uh senior citizens in Oklahoma owned their were owning their own homes. And those who were not senior citizens, I think there was only like a 46 percent of those people. Don't quote me on that. That's just something I had read. And so if if the senior citizens have the majority of property and home ownership, and they were the ones to get the tax cuts and breaks, what would that look like for funding the schools and those uh municipalities?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it's a yes, that's the question. But fiscally, how does it impact? Um I think that we should at minimum freeze where they are for for seniors. Uh and some seniors and veterans uh are exempt from property tax right now. Um it's it's driven by are you a hundred percent disabled veteran right now? And you can get an exemption uh based upon your income as a senior. So from that standpoint, I do think there is a path to eliminate it for the seniors because but they need certainty. I mean, here's the problem for seniors. When you retire, um your your pit your first day of retirement, that first retirement check you get.

SPEAKER_01

You're on a fixed budget now.

SPEAKER_00

You are yeah, and and that fixed budget going forward in time doesn't catch up with inflation. It doesn't. I mean, the buying power of it is is diminishing. So a senior who has an exemption this year, uh let's just take somebody who might have a few cows. You know, they might still uh ranch a little bit and they don't have much income. But let's just say they have a really good, you know, they have a little bit better year in the cattle market than the previous year. Well, if they sell too many, if they sell a few cows and go above that threshold, now they're back on paying their property taxes, which probably wasn't calculated in their budget going forward. Right. So we need certainty and we need we need stability. I think people should be able to retire in peace. I really want to find a way to uh repeal the uh advalorm for our seniors and veterans. I mean, I I think that would be great. Now, the biggest thing that will energize our economy would be to do away with personal income tax. That would help our seniors and retirees. Now, for for veterans and military, we're ex we're already not taxing uh their retirement benefits. But we should we should extend that. Uh, but that just leaves more money in people's pocket to to pay for the escalating costs of groceries, insurance, and whatnot. Yeah. But I think that I think those are the two things we need to, you know, really focus on uh to help uh families. And it's not just our seniors and veterans. Um let's think about, you know, we want a bigger workforce. We want more young families uh establishing residency here and laying down routes. We've got to find ways to, I mean, it's it's hard. When you're starting out, you don't have a lot of income, but you've got you're trying to build security, you're trying to homeownership, you're trying to prepare to build a family. Yeah. Uh I want to see us do things to invest and make it more attainable for young families to thrive here in the state. Yeah. There's there's two states of existence. It's surviving or thriving. I've bit I've seen both. I we're we're gonna be we're gonna be in the the the state of thriving. Yeah. That that's that's yeah, that's where we're gonna be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And that that was another one of my questions. Um you're seeing, I think in 2010 the study was the first time home buyers. So this would be their first home they're buying. Yes, the average age was 32. And now I believe, you know, after 15, 16 years, it's jumped to 38 is the average age for your first time home buyer.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What uh why do you think that is? And what's something we could do to maybe bring that average back down again so you know, younger folks, like you were saying, be able to afford something like that. You're um advocating for no more property or uh cutting the state income tax. Yep. And in doing so, what is what does that kind of look like in an overall grand scheme?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, and it's not just what you do, it's how you do it that makes sense. So on the personal income tax, you s you you should start by eliminating all the lower tax brackets first, get to a single rate. By doing that, eliminating the lower ones first, you're helping the lower income earners in the state first. Yeah. And puts more pock dollars in their pocket. Um keeping working to keep those insurance rates, getting those down, keeping utility costs in check, uh staying one of the most uh best cost of living states is is important to help young families. But also, you know, the state, what they can do when they have surpluses, what I experienced with all these surpluses that we were able to generate. We s you set monies aside for first-time homebuyer programs, also for communities. We set up uh $300 million that doesn't matter where you are in the state of Oklahoma. Um housing is a big problem throughout the state, especially small communities. It's the chicken or the egg, you know. We need housing, but we don't have the people for the housing, but we can't attract the people if unless we have the housing. Unless we have some housing. Yeah. So we set $300 million aside that that developers um could could reach in and utilize that money to develop housing out throughout the state of Oklahoma. Go in and build five houses, ten houses, sell them. That money has to be repaid back into the pot once you sell it, um, and then you know, continue that out. Try to you know, try to provide the the the entire pipeline, address the entire pipeline. But with those who need to to borrow money to get into their first house, they you know, do they have a good paying job? Yeah. And but what you don't have, even when you're starting out with a good paying job, you don't have reserves, you don't have savings. Right. So that down payment uh creating so we create a pot of funds that that could assist with that as well. Yeah. We've got to continue to to invest Innovate and reinvest that way.

SPEAKER_01

So you're delivering a product at a reasonable cost and you're still, you know, acquiring um financial gain in doing so.

SPEAKER_00

So and you know, these programs are um the ones I've seen in the past, you know, if you stay in the house for five years, then then that down payment assistant program was is is forgiven. If you if you bail and move somewhere else, you gotta pay it back.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But anyway, we just got to come out, you know, we need to come up with a a better recipe, or at least a very strong one to attract what we want. And and invest, listen, the our workforce and our future generations won't be any stronger than that family unit. So those new families that are starting, we need to pay a lot of attention to, you know, stabilizing, helping stabilize their financial situation uh in terms of opportunity and jobs, but also um make sure that you know we are doing the things um to help them create security, physical security, housing, food shelter things, the basic found fundamental foundations. But also we need strong churches uh in the state that that uh come alongside and do things that government can't do uh effectively and pour into people and in terms of the the their spirit and um as well as helping them navigate uh their life journey. I one of the biggest things that I found that was supportive is you know, after Stephanie and I were married, we joined a church that neither one of us grew up in, but they had a really great uh young married group there. People that were our age experiencing the same things. You know, we went to Sunday school in church with them, and you know, we kind of could empathize with one another's situation and help help one another. We learned a lot together. Um, that's a really, I think, a very important component of building stability in the family. And I think that's something that Oklahoma could is and could be stronger, but that's one thing that makes our state really great. Our our people still have a uh a belief in the Almighty and the Creator and and um and a sense of right and wrong and a moral compass.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I had uh along those lines of um talking about the church engaging and really pouring into people, I had spoken with Representative Josh Burkeen um about two months ago about this topic with the homeless population and situation that you're seeing um in the larger areas like uh Tulsa, Oklahoma City, you see an influx in that and um having those churches really um, whether it's feeding the poor, you know, just really pouring to those communities. But what's a good way that we could help that situation to where there's not such an influx over the period of time? You see it go up and up and up. And uh what would be a good way that we could start to see in that decline?

SPEAKER_00

Well, Jesus says in the Bible, we're churches take care of the widows and the orphans. I mean, that's the that's the directive. And the churches are good at uh and we have strong churches in the state that uh want to meet physical and spiritual needs of people. They do a good job. Homelessness has increased. Uh, the thing that I've uh experienced, I've um I will stop and talk to folks, you know, and just find out what they're about and their life story. Right. And I is uh when it comes to homelessness, it's a tough issue, and here's why. Um while I was in the legislature down here getting some gas at the an on-cue gas station next to the Capitol, the guy walks up and says, Can I wash your windows um for you know whatever you want to pay me? Homeless guy. And he's right over, you know, just staying right over here at the brid at the bridge next door. Yeah. Um, from the gas station. And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And we're I'm filling it up, and we just start, you know, and I start talking. And like, he's and he's a great individual. I mean, really enjoyed it. And uh, I mean, it was cold out there. It was a really cold evening. And I'm like, man, hey, can I help you get into a shelter tonight or to a church or something? I mean, it's it's cold out here. And he and it it's really, it was really mind-blowing, but his response, and his response was, yeah, I really appreciate that, but I want you to understand something. I choose this life, I choose this lifestyle. I'm doing exactly what I want to do. And for me, I was like, that is a totally different way of looking at life than I see it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But to, and I t I share that story because what I realized uh in that conversation was here's somebody that doesn't want the help that I want to offer them. Um and so I think that's what the challenge is with with a homeless situation. There's a lot of drug addiction. Uh the state's trying to help those people. And uh but you have to have you have to have a um to help somebody. You know, my pastor has said in the past there's a difference between help and relief. And most people want relief, which is a is to take a to take away the pain that they're experiencing, but does but uh not willing to change behavior. Help is changing behavior. And so it's a very tough issue. Um and while we're Christians and we are called to have compassion, and and I will and do, we also have to speak the truth on on issues. So it's a hard it's a hard situation uh to deal with. Um I'm willing at the state level as the governor to help any city address the problems. But we do have to make sure our cities have to show leadership and they they have to come up with local policy and ordinance that actually help. Um and they can't create a problem and then ask the state to come in and fix it.

SPEAKER_01

What do you think what do you think some of those things would be?

SPEAKER_00

Some of those uh Well you can't, you know, you can't you can't just have uh I mean we just in the state of Oklahoma, our communities, you can't you just there's only so much of it that we can handle. Um some of it, you some of it people came their homes, not Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_02

No, I wouldn't have to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00

But they they end up here because somebody asked them to come here, yeah. Or they saw something where uh Tulsa or Oklahoma City is gonna offer some stuff. And um City of Norman is in this, uh has had this experience as well in dealing with it. But it's it's kind of asking for it and welcoming it without a plan on how to address it. Then you get overrun. Then you want somebody else to bail you out.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so I think you've got to, you know, I I think the church does a better job in that area as well as most of the areas within the state handles within DHS, when it's foster care, adoption, crisis pregnancy. The churches will be much more functional long term. But I want this, you know, I want these cities that are don't have a plan, they've got a soft heart for people, but they haven't worked out a plan, they've got a lead. The state can't take care of everything, but I'm happy as governor to come in and uh and assist. We want to help people. There's some people that don't want to help that found their way here, and for whatever reason, and I think I think the state of California buses people to Oklahoma. I think some other states do that too, and and I think uh it's it's not a bad thing to help them find their way home.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, I mean I was gonna say in my line of work, you know, um this is a common occurrence that we have where we're asking somebody as we're helping them, or you know, somebody will call on them because they're laying on the in the road or something, or they're laying on the sidewalk and somebody might call in on them, not knowing if they're okay. And then after you get there, make sure they're okay, make sure they have medical attention, you'll just ask them, you know, where you know, where are you from? And the majority of the time it's very surprising it's not from Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh and listen, even though and even if they're here, um, I'm willing to help somebody become productive. I mean, we want ultimately we want everybody in the state of Oklahoma to be productive and and experience a great life. Um but those who refuse, you know, um treatment or a pathway to become productive, and you know, I'm we've you can't expect the taxpayers, you can expect them to help you, but but not forever.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

You know, we're gonna be uh you you've gotta be uh, you know, helping people. I mean it goes back to the adage. The you feed somebody a fish, feed them for a day, teach them how to fish, feed them for life. Right. That's the approach. And um it will it will the outcome will be based upon the the individual and what they're are they are they willing to be become a part of our state and a productive member of our state. Our state's very compassionate. People are very compassionate, they want to help. I I want, I mean, I ultimately it's about people and relationships more than it is politics. Um but someone who just can constantly refuses to to help themselves, that's that's that's a problem. Um the scripture says God helps those who are willing to help themselves. And so you've got to have compassion, but you also have have to speak the truth. And that's how I will address it as governor. I'll do my best to help help people who are in a bad situation find a a good productive life and a path there, but you've got to be willing to work hard at it and do your part.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for that. Yeah. Um circling back around just for a moment on the state income tax issue. What would be your process of implementing a zero state income tax?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Powell We're currently on a path to zero, which means we're gonna phase it out as economic growth, we experience economic growth and revenue uh growth. And I I passed the bill originally while I was in the legislature, did not make it through the the Senate until after I termed out. But that's that's the path that Tennessee followed. And as revenues increase $400 million, there'll be a quarter cut. And I think there's a way to accelerate that. Ultimately, uh you can't take the you can't take the personal income tax to zero um immediately. Just can't do it. Uh Kansas proved that out. They eliminated theirs all in one big swipe. It shocked their system. And then they'd turn around and there was political ramifications, uh, economic ramifications, and they ultimately had to turn back around and institute a personal income tax. You can phase it out. Uh, you can do some tax reform and and uh change some other things up in the recipe that allow you to make big adjustments in it initially or replace it. And um I think those are possibilities. That's what I'll talk to the legislature about is what do they have the appetite to do. But getting to zero, I mean, right now, when we were asking for families, people, more workforce to move here, and more investment from businesses who need workforce before they can expand their business in the state that they're in, much less trying to move or expand in another state. You've got to have you've got to have something that attracts them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And right now, and it's not it's true, Texas, the state of Texas has higher taxation overall than the state of Oklahoma, but they for decades have been growing so much faster than Oklahoma. It's because they have no personal income tax and they have no corporate income tax on their business. And even though their taxation is higher, they beat us every time because people see I here's a state that does not tax what I make. And that makes people want to work harder. What we need in Oklahoma, more millionaires and billionaires. Don't tax what they make. You want everybody to become a millionaire. And then when they start buying their they start spending and and buying cool toys and whatnot, there'll be plenty of revenue come in on that, on that consumption side. I really want to see is it's overall moving to a more consumption-based economy than than we have in the past.

SPEAKER_01

Now, would there be a raise in like sales tax or anything like that? Or that stage.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think you have to. Okay. Um we've been able to we were able to triple the output with bringing per personal income tax down and eliminating the franchise tax on business and cutting the corporate income tax from six percent to four percent. And there's a few other things that we we did as well. Um I think there is a path to I don't know if you know if the legislature says, Hey, Governor, if you want that, if you want that personal, if you want the elimination of the personal income tax, here's what we're gonna need, here's what we believe we have to change elsewhere to keep keep things uh stable. Um I'll look at that. You know, at the end of the day, if it's a if it's a net tax cut for the people of the state, I I could be open to that. Um I am not going to be for raising taxes on a net tax increase on people. That's the wrong direction. That's the wrong way to go. Um and we have this state stayed stagnant for decades because that was our structure. We're we're gonna we're gonna keep moving uh in a way that uh lowers the burden on people. That's what stimulates the economy. Yeah. Growing it out, having more makers, and growing the pie, the economic uh number of businesses that we have, we all can have lower taxations everywhere, not just on the personal income tax side. Okay. And still have plenty of revenue. We've proved it. We've got we have revenue to to address education funding, health care, roads and bridges. We've we've proven that out. And anybody who and I know it's can be count sounds counterproductive. People ask me all the time, well, if you cut the personal income tax, Charles, how do you make up that revenue? I'm like, the revenue's still there. The money is still there. It's just you left it in the earner's pocket to make the decision on how to spend it, but they they spend it and it comes back to the state on the on the consumption side. So now that act now that acts completely different than you cut a you eliminate a consumption tax, you severed a pathway of revenue back to the state. When we eliminated the grocery tax, um that is $450 million. That'll never come back to the state of Oklahoma. But every time we cut the personal income tax, it was scored at $300 million. That $300 million was redeployed by the people who earned it. And it just bounced around the economy and benefited the cities, the counties, and the state on the sales tax side and came back. And we had more to work with.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Does this seem like something that a lot of people don't fully grasp the concept of how this works? You know, they hear they're going to cut taxes and they think, well, that's going to cut funding for all these different municipalities, schools.

SPEAKER_00

People are scared. Um you cut taxes, we won't have the revenue to do the things that we we want to do. And and the entities that operate off those off those tax revenues, they're always scared of it. And you know, they'll they'll message, well, no, if you cut, then we'll have less. Right. And how we make that up. And um but we've I've proven in my experience shown that w when you make incremental cuts.

SPEAKER_01

The data is backing up the incremental cuts.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the the economic out, I mean the performance is there to prove it. And but you do the how is important. You don't want to you don't want to overrun it. Yeah. Where you where you do have a disruption. I'm I'm all about functionality. I you know, I think the best government is the one that's responsive to the people, listens to the people, and works for the people, serves the people. Um, and to the greatest extent, stays kind of out of their life. And, you know, I think people think they have a good government when it just when they're doing well, their lives are are great, and they don't even see the government there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's so functional and it's very limited in its scope. That's that's what people want.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. Moving on to a conversation that seems a little like over the last few years kind of seems pretty tense when you talk about it. But as governor, how would your administration handle relationships with the tribes?

SPEAKER_00

You know, and that's that is not a I don't think that's a hard issue at all. Okay. I mean, my family moved to what is now Oklahoma in 1885 from Pennsylvania. The patriarch of our family died in a mining uh-related accident, and the the matriarch of the family gathered the boys up and they came here. They went as far as the as the train went west at that time, and uh they settled in Tishamingo, Johnson County, Oklahoma, the capital city of the Chickasaw Nation. And since 1885, our family has either lived within the Chickasaw Nation or the Choctaw Nation. So between Tishamingo and Atoka. Yeah. And the Chickasaw Nation and the Choctaw Nation have done great things in our part of the state. They've been a great partner as a mayor. Choctaw Nation came in and finished a project. We built a new sports complex for the people. Uh, they wanted it, and we facilitated it, got it done as their city council, but we didn't have the the funds to build the roads in, you know, make permanent surface roads into it, walking tracks, lighting. And the Choctaw Nation came in and and did that part of it. Um the tribal nations really I bel I see them as an opportunity for the state of Oklahoma. I mean, federal government moved them here. They didn't ask to come here. It's 38 federally recognized tribes are here. The big five civilized tribes are here in Oklahoma. Uh they are they have big economies, uh, they uh they have federal sovereignty, they are governments, and so is the state of Oklahoma. State of Oklahoma is sovereign. It as it's it's you know, we're a state in the union. We have our our government. There's going to be some things that are different, but we have always found a way to compact for things. I the listen, the the tribal nations aren't going to pay, they're they're exempt from taxation. Um they're not on their businesses, they're not going likely going to remit directly to the Oklahoma Tax Commission. But the tribal Where I live, but they don't remit to the Oklahoma Tax Commission, they remit to uh municipalities and counties. They come in and help with projects. And when we're working together with the with the tribal nations, we're able to do more within education. We are able to do more within health care and road and bridge infrastructure.

SPEAKER_01

And then seeing that, why do you think like why do you think there's such a why this is such a sore subject and why this is such a subject of contention and why there's so much um maybe not animosity, but there's some uh right now it seems like anyway, it's just kind of a tense, tense relationship.

SPEAKER_00

Well, the there's a host of reasons. Uh there are um my experience within the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations have been very positive. Yeah. Um but there's also you know 36 other tribes around the state of different and all the tribal nations are are are different. I have they have their own different history and their culture is unique and and their leaderships see see things differently. But you know, at the end of the day, the and I understand there there are some things that are perceived by people as as inequitable between the two governments, and the citizens of those governments are are treated differently, and that's usually where that's usually where the strife and the problems are. But the federal government allows us to compact at the state level, and uh which are enduring agreements between two governments that seek to create some conformity and uniformity on trying to treat things in a similar fashion. The tribal nations may not do it the same way that we decide to do it here in Oklahoma, but my experience is if you'll have if you'll work hard, be respectful, uh work together, you can find ways to the same outcome. It's just a different path. Yeah. You kind of kind of wired around it, so to speak, and where you have great outcomes. Um now there should be great outcomes for all Oklahomans in these agreements. You know, and I would, you know, as governor, I I will be seeking um for agreements that make sense and are good for the people of the state of Oklahoma. I know the tribal leaders uh want the same. I don't see it as a zero-sum game where one side wins and one side loses. Right. I think there's a way for everyone to win. And but that takes work and that takes working at the relationship, and that takes and there's some things that listen, I never thought universal school freedom uh in this state would I mean that was the toughest fight in the legislature, but it it it finally happened because we kept working to find a way where every student, parent, teacher, and and school in the state of Oklahoma would win. It would be a it would be a win all the way around for everybody. Same thing with the Native American tribes. But you but you've got to you gotta you gotta be respectful and show some deference and um you have to have conversations. That's where it starts. And you have to understand the culture and not communicate publicly on things until they're until there's an agreement. And there will be some things that very quickly I think we can we can do together, but there will be some harder things that'll take longer. Right. But don't let the things you can agree on. Well, let me put it this way don't let the things that you can't agree on today, those things that you have disagreement on, keep you from doing the things that you do agree on. Go get those things done. Keep working on the others, do the things that you can do, and it it'll we will move forward into uh higher levels of prosperity for everybody.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for that. And moving on to I've seen a lot lately about foreign land ownership here in Oklahoma. And so for a lot of Oklahomans may not even be privy to it or um know that it's going on maybe right around their area. So what can you kind of take us into that where where we're seeing a majority of this uh foreign ownership happen, where at in the state, and what uh how is it able to happen?

SPEAKER_00

The genesis of it was the legalization of marijuana in the state of Oklahoma. State question brought by initiative petition, out of state group, um put forth, and people voted it in. Um what they were sold on was not what they voted on, and now they're seeing the consequences of what was really in that state question. But every state that legalizes marijuana, you have every cartel on the globe that moves into that state. They know that this that the state where it's new, it's gonna take them a period of time to get a framework stood up to regulate it and to enforce the law. Our state's constitution says you cannot own own you cannot own land in Oklahoma unless you're a U.S. citizen or in the process of becoming a U.S. citizen, if not. We have foreign-owned land here, and it's because it's it's it's marijuana grow, and there's direct ownership in shell companies, LLCs, and there's even straw buyers that are funded the money to buy it, to lease it, lease it back.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And so that's kind of the advent of it. We've stood up some laws uh to start getting our arms around it. The Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics has done a great job along with your local sheriffs to to rein in a lot of it. Oklahoma, your county commission, your county government cannot issue ordinances in the county. So it's hard for them. I mean, if you you're outside the city limits, you can just it's kind of a you know a wild west. Kind of free-for-all a little bit. Yeah. But we can we've started finding it and rooting it out. The grow licenses have dropped um down below 1,500. Yeah. I mean, they started off at about 9,000 were applied for 5,000. So um it's down, but that ownership's still there. It's a very simple solution. Um, it'll take effort, it'll take resources, and I'm willing to deploy those, even if it means the National Guard. But you you can seize the land and you just put it back in Oklahoma's hands by auctioning off at the county courthouse steps to the highest bidder.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And but getting out there and finding it, um uh OBN, they're really good at it, and I'm I want to put more resources behind it. Um and uh I'll find it all as governor. It's on my platform and and uh we'll we'll get them out of here.

SPEAKER_01

What what do you how do you think they were able to uh basically work for this long? Like how are they able to um kind of take roots and once again? Just be able to grow so much in such a it I mean, relatively short amount of time.

SPEAKER_00

Well, the word's out. I mean, we're we've been cracking down on it once we figured it out. A lot of them are already leaving. Yeah. They're they're they're going to places like Mississippi who legalized it after us.

SPEAKER_01

And but what would have been the best way to prevent it from happening in the first place? Like pass it. Just don't pass it.

SPEAKER_00

Just don't pass it.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, but even after passing it, was there a way to mitigate the craziness that went on?

SPEAKER_00

I don't think so. I mean, you look at other states like Colorado around us, I mean, they still have a problem with it today. There's fewer, I mean, they only have a few, you know, it's all consolidated down to, you know, 10 large companies or whatnot. But I just don't think I just I don't think it's good. Uh ultimately, I don't think the benefits of it out outweigh the the costs of it. That's just me personally, but the people of the state have legalized it. What are we going to do about it until the people change their mind? Yeah. You got to start treating it like a medical program. You know, people who uh use it based on uh medicinal use. Uh you get you need to see your doctor more than once a year to, you know, to before you can just acquire it. Yeah. It should it should the doctor should prescribe what level of THC. Um if you're if it's being pr you know prescribed to a child, I mean, they ought to see them weekly. I I mean, just we've already cracked down on, you know, out-of-state doctors can't issue um marijuana licenses. But we you you've got to start regulating if the feds will declassify it, and there is, I think, legislation and or a process being worked through, they move it, the classification um schedule, it could be dispensed through pharmacies. It's not dispensed through pharmacies right now because it's of the federal prohibition on it. If you want to, if the people of the state want to keep it and they believe they voted on it as a medicinal program, medical marijuana, then that's the way it needs to be treated. But there's a lot of things that there are kids overdosing. Yeah. There are kids going to school that are numb, they are not in a condition to learn. And I know there's some people in pain out there that the THC can help. But what it's proving is that there's a high level of abuse, and we've got we've got mental health cases skyrocketing in the state.

SPEAKER_01

Is this is this something you could see happening before it happened? Like is this something you were watching, just thinking to yourself?

SPEAKER_00

Here's a perfect example of the people of the state. We get we get exploited through our initiative petition process. They're told they're marketed one thing and they vote for it, and it's not what they voted for. And and then when it gets bad after a couple of years, then they then people start looking to place blame here and there. And I've heard I've heard, well, you guys in the legislature didn't get out in front of this. We've got this bad framework. We've got we've we voted it in, but it's we got this because you wouldn't do something responsible. That's not true. We did something very responsible to get ahead of this. We legalized CBD. That's where the medicinal value is. THC is for pain, CBD. And we we would hope that that would that in itself would address the seizure problems with with youth, uh the medicinal value for the aged who have a hard time sleeping and have other uh medical issues that the CBD has uh will will help with and alleviate. But the THC, I mean, there are strands varieties of the plants being grown with super high levels of THC that trigger that psychotic episode that really can uh very addictive and will will burn you up over time. Yeah. And those things have got to be reined in if you're gonna keep it. But it's it's tough. I mean, I I've marijuana is the gateway drug to the hard, the harder stuff. And the the stronger THC level varieties keep people uh in marijuana longer. But I will concede that I do I do think that marijuana has helped with our opioid problem in the state of Oklahoma. I think it has replaced um opioids for pain to a to a decent degree. I would say that has if I if you said Charles, what is can you say one positive thing about it? I would say that that that is it. Yeah. Um but long term I personally would vote to to repeal because the state, we we had we had plenty of mental health cases to deal with before the passage of legalized marijuana. Now the front door is is is flooding.

SPEAKER_01

And do you think that's kind of uh that's because it was so wild at first, just so much of it popping up everywhere. It's just so many different growth farms, so many different dispensaries.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's it's a it's being abused like any other drug. That's that's the problem with it. And with youth, I mean the brain is not fully developed until you're 26 years old, 26 years of age. And so whether it's drugs, alcohol, and marijuana is in is is in that category with it, the use of it is going to it it it's gonna keep your your mind from reaching full development and full potential. So there's just uh there's just a lot of things about it that unintended consequences, I think people are now discovering about it and seeing it on a day-to-day uh basis. And we've you know, we've got to get in there and tighten it, tighten it up. And I know there's a lot of people who've invested money in it, and I'm not trying, you know, I I get that, but it is um it's very there's a a real negative impact on and we've we've got to show some leadership and and address it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, okay. Thank you for that as well. Yeah. Um moving on kind of to the close. What do you think sets you apart from the other candidates that are running in this race? What is something that you would say um this is why this is why Charles McCall should be governor of Oklahoma?

SPEAKER_00

I think people should vote for Charles McCall. Um because number one, I don't need the job, I don't need a title. Um I'm in it for the people of the state of Oklahoma, I'm in it for the state's future. Goes back to what I told you earlier about my dad's taught me approach about business. Go make it go make things good for others, and um things will things will be great for everyone. The beyond that, I'm the only candidate that has the experience. I'm the most qualified, the most experienced um as speaker of the house, going from the worst of times. I know what caused that. But we will not go back there. Um in shepherding uh the state to the best times economically and state history, catching up, preparing with reserves for a future economic downturn, investing in core infrastructure in this state, but also seeing the executive branch of government, which is full of agencies and bureaucracy and unelected people, um, and knowing all the games that they can play. Um I'll be effective day one in making the executive branch of government start working for the people of the state. Right now, the people of the state feel like the government's telling them how they have to live their life and what they have to do. That's not the place of government. Place of government is to serve people of the state. And as governor, I'm gonna make sure it works for the people. And I have a proven track record of I don't have just great conservative rhetoric and promises. I have a proven record of delivering. No one else does. And I'm not saying other people aren't good Oklahomans in this race. I'm just saying if you want the best outcomes and um somebody that actually done it and proven themselves, then you should vote for Charles McCall. And I I know that I'll be the most effective um governor that of of anybody in the race. And and quite honestly, I'll you know, the way I was successful is I I I surround myself with with people who are like-minded, focused on outcomes and doing good for the people, and having a functional government uh for the people, by the people of the people. And that's what people will have out of Governor Charles McCall. I don't want any credit for the great outcomes. I just want people to do well, and I want the credit to if our state rises to new levels and meets and fully achieves um its um potential, that's that is thanks enough. I don't I don't I don't care if I'm how I'm remembered other than Charles McCall was the governor when, you know, during a time of really great opportunity and prosperity for us. That's I would say that would be the best um the best legacy to leave. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Charles McCall. And thank you for great to see you. Yeah, sir. Best wishes on the on the hand there, healing it up, and thank you for protecting our our our families uh and what you do every day as a firefighter. Love it, absolutely and uh keeping our community safe and and uh throwing yourself out there in the the the line of of of danger to your own uh peril and and hazard to yourself and to your family. Thank you. Thank you so much.