Executive Conversations by The Paypers with Banking Circle | Episode 2: Building the Infrastructure Behind Global Payments

In this episode of Executive Conversations by The Paypers, our host Dwayne Gefferie sits down with Mikkel Grønlykke, President of Banking Circle. 

The conversation centres on one idea: that Banking Circle is becoming genuine infrastructure for global payments, one bank and one currency connection at a time, and that owning the licenses and clearing access directly is what makes that hard to replicate. Mikkel walks through how growth actually happens when Banking Circle goes live in a new market, what sets direct clearing apart from firms pitching a single API for global money movement, and which of the world's biggest payment corridors still sit outside the bank's own rails. 

A candid, strategic look at what it actually takes to build payments infrastructure that lasts. 

About Executive Conversations by The Paypers 

Executive Conversations by The Paypers is a podcast series that brings together senior industry executives and leading voices in global payments and fintech for high-level discussions on the trends, tensions, and opportunities shaping the industry today. 

Each episode is a genuine on-the-record exchange on relevant conversations with the people driving change in payments, fintech, and more. Hosted by Dwayne Gefferie, the series gives listeners direct access to the thinking of the executives and experts who are defining where the industry is headed next. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Executive Conversations by the Papers. I'm Dwayne Jeffery. In this episode, I'm joined by Mikkel Grunlicke, president at Banking Circle. We're exploring how Banking Circle is reshaping cross-border payment flows and what it takes to connect global financial institutions in a fragmented payments landscape. For someone meeting Banking Circle for the first time, how would you describe the company and what is it that you actually do?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Thanks, Wayne, and good to be here. So Banking Circle is a very tech-forward settlement infrastructure globally. And what I mean by that is, you know, traditionally you have had banks sending money from A to B over great distances, and it'll take days. You don't know what arrives, you don't know what it will cost you, et cetera. The idea in the premise here is really direct integration into the central banks, the direct clearing capability, and that gives that instant capability. If you want to send money from Amsterdam to Australia, it'll be instant. And what we have built is that global connectivity. We're still building it out. So we have almost filled in Europe now, and now we're sort of going truly on the global undercurrencies, which is speed, agility, one single integration into banking circle, regardless of what you do, then you're set for the future and you can just add on uh the our global capabilities. So again, tech enabled, quick, global, and client-centric.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Fantastic. And like if I have to imagine who you're serving, what are the type of customers that you're dealing with? Are those financial institutions, fintechs, merchants? Yeah. Who are you dealing with?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

It's a great question. So again, I come from traditional banking where platforms were set up to serve all industries, and therefore it was not particularly tailor-made. Now, banking sort of was set up with the clear premise of servicing regulated NPFIs, right? We don't have retail clients, we don't really have corporate clients. So the idea is really the platform and the products we have developed is very specifically tailored to regulated NPFIs. And that means we are an aggregator of aggregators. So we are that infrastructure layer. And that's why you're seeing the enormous flows coming through us because it's very tailored, it's very scalable, and we are literally an aggregator of aggregators.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Absolutely. So of course, moving money across borders is still for most businesses slower and more expensive than moving anything else. Um, when you look at that, what's the bigger thing that banking circle is actually setting out to build?

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yeah, so with banks, that's exactly what we are trying to address, insofar that as long as we have the self-clearing abilities in a given currency, and again, Australia is a great example, then we can make it instant, right? So our premises really payments and money should flow like data, right? It should be instant. We all remember sort of pre-iPhone and sort of it's just such a different world. We got the iPhone and a completely new world opened up. This is the same. Now we do instant in euro, we do instant in you know, all that, and we're so used to that now. We want to do that globally. And that's what we enable without waiting for regulatory developments and other things. We directly enable that. Uh, so that's really the vision of banking sugar in all the major currencies.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Absolutely. And you know, a lot of people might say, look, you have the the global networks, you have all of these different reels already. Uh, why isn't an instant already, right? We have the technology. Some have already solved it on a on a local level. What is sort of like the bottleneck or what's keeping it from being truly instant and truly global all at the same time?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Well, so so I think step instant is is a good example of how long it takes. So the idea was born, was it 25 years ago, give or take, and it takes there are even 30 years ago, I believe, and then it takes you know 10, 15, 20 years to actually go live. And it's a regulatory uh uh environment. It's the it's really the sort of policy and the prioritization of really making that for your underlying citizens, if you will. And that's where some of really forward thinking. India is a great example. They've been very forward thinking, and the technology is great, and and others just don't see the need because they frankly they don't connect the dots. So what we're seeing emerge in in some of this sort of what traditional would have been called emergent markets or developing markets, actually, they are much more technological and payment advanced than most other places because they've sort of leaped ahead, if you will. So it's very policy politicians, and that drive needs to be there. Um, so I think that's the biggest obstacle, frankly.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit more about growth and and of course where that happens. So whenever banking circle goes live in a new country, what changes for the businesses that are already on your platform?

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yeah. So um we have now, we say 850 plus clients. It's more than 900 uh uh as we speak. And this is really, we think it's largely the who is who. We have a few to still fill in. Um but we speak with our clients, and they clearly they have joined us and become clients in our current capabilities, but they ask us for things. And we are very client-centric. Banking struggle and infrastructure was really built around clients a little bit, what we talked about earlier. It's very specific for the interest, but there are certain clients that have just helped us to come really sharp on the product and the rollout. That client dialogue is continuous. So when we are sort of starting to do Euros, they say, hey, what about Polish slots? What about Check Room and what's your plans? And we hear these things a lot. And then at some point of time, and it becomes an internal privatization as well. It becomes, well, we see that much demand. So we need to build this, and then we we start building that. Clearly, lots of planning, regulatory interaction. And we have a lot of ships in the sea because sometimes it's actually quite quick, and the regulator is very engaged, very practical, and the technical integration is easier because they are more tech forward. Other times it can be incredibly slow. So you need that, but the prioritization, it's really following our clients where they need us. And then clearly, some markets, and especially within the EU, are easier just from a regulatory perspective, sometimes even for a technical integration. Sometimes when you go a little bit further, I feel there are requirements around uh it can be capitalization, it can be around ownership, it can be many things. And clearly there are many factors to consider. But end of the day, we do follow our clients. We want to go to the major currencies, we look at other currencies if there is enough demand. And that's really the agility we have built. We can do that. It's a mindset, but it's also a tech platform, an internal setup uh that really enables that.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Absolutely. So maybe let's walk through sort of like a scenario. Like let's take a global payments company that wants to be able to pay those merchants out in Australia, like you mentioned, on a local currency, they want to do it quickly without setting up their own entity there. How does it look through banking circle today versus how it looks today?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, so so basically if we assume that it's with an existing client, so they've been onboarded, they are on our API, then there's no need to onboard again because we have onboarded that entity. The technical integrations through the API have been done. So that's very easy. Now, to get the Australian uh dollar payout capability, it's literally, well, figuratively speaking, it's more or less just like ticking a box in our in our system, and they will be enabled. It's a little bit more complicated than that, but it's almost as easy. Uh and then you're enabled. Now, with sort of legacy banks, what happens is okay, you need that. Then we need to first onboard you, yeah, uh proper onboarding. You need to do the technical integration. And we are talking, this is not weeks or months, this is often years, from my experience, right? And then you can start doing the payouts if the commercials are attractive enough for a big bank to actually think about it. Because we don't really have those countries, the onboarding is done, the single API and the technical integrations, so it's literally just the green commercials, and then off you go. And it is as simple as that.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Absolutely. So when you when you look at that model, of course, you go into different countries, different regions, get the licenses, are able to provide that. Do do customers ever leave your platform, or are they just like, hey, we don't have to deal with this anymore, so we much rather go with the reels that you're building in front of us uh until the volumes are there and then we continue to grow and go into other markets?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

It's a very good question, and it's sort of very tropical. So at least for me, I sat with a client literally just before I came here, and we talked, and they have very significant flows. And uh she was saying everything I hear, it's sort of almost too good to be true. Why hadn't I heard about you? Right, and what what what has happened at banking circle and clearly we come from a kind of pure startup? Was let's get a foot in the door with clients so they can see what we can do and experience that. And then it grows naturally for their because firsthand they experience what it means for their operations, for their cost base, for their speed, go to market, etc. So naturally it just grows and very fast, and that's sort of what's happening. Now, the flip side of that is we maybe haven't been good enough to get our name out there. We have been almost that quiet infrastructure because naturally we have grown very quickly from getting a client for a specific use case and then it just expands, expands, expands. And so again, being self-critical, we maybe need to get our name a little bit more out there, but typically it just tries to very specifically your question because I took a D-Root, we see very, very seldom the clients leave us. And it's typically if clients do something through us that we haven't agreed and it's flow, we actually don't want to see.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:51

So if it's agreed, flow and not a problem. But if we start seeing flow that was not agreed, then we need to take action. So it's more that way around. I cannot think, and I've been at banking for 11 months, I cannot think about one single client that has left us. Um yeah, I actually can't.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

There's great. So that's absolutely, but it also feels like we we see a lot of this modularity now, right? Like in fintech and in banking, is that well, if your core strength isn't exactly this, get the best partner you can, expand in those regions, but build on top of that, right? If you have a great user interface or you're a great payments processor, would you go in and get a license in every single uh country to do the payouts or say, hey, who's my great partner? Can I focus on the front-end side, the customer acquisition, the building out my product features and capabilities, and then partnering with the right partner to actually go in to those markets?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yeah, that that that's exactly right. And you know, in today's world, to build Mortala is sort of the standard, right? And some do it incredibly well. And also some of our clients clearly, what we were, and I think there was some real vision uh uh on the account of the the two founders, we built that Mortala approach very early on, right? And then with time, we have gotten the right licensing, the right product capabilities, etc. But we started with that model approach very early. And that's allowed us to really have state-of-the-art technology, but also product development and scalability. So that but our clients, the modularities, it's it's evolved very quickly. And that means the speed and the go-to market is just sensational nowadays. And if you look back 10 or 15 years ago, it's been a huge leap, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

To your point, it's really impressive. Absolutely. So I think you already touched upon uh sort of like the technicality, like having built a single API for moving money globally. I think there's plenty of firms who offer that, right? You have Niam, you have Air Wallace among them. Um, and a lot of them promise pretty much the same thing on the outside. If we strip away all of the marketing, what does banking circle actually do that most of those others can't?

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Now you see, now you you put me sort of in a tricky spot because what I'm gonna say, people say, well, of course it's gonna say that, right? So it's but I'm gonna say it anyway because it is actually the truth. And our clients know this. We have one single API. And you know, for example, we typically we build our own, and when we expand into countries, we actually expand it organically. The exception to that was Australia, where we completed the acquisition of ASL in August last year. And clearly it was acquisition, they had their own API, etc. Now it's fully on our API. So it's already one single API, and this is what, nine months after the acquisition? It was on our API, so I think it was April, so let's call it seven months after. That's the priority of getting to one single API. So we have one single API. All our clients listening, and sort of you will speak with will say that because they see it. Now, I know of competitors, even some of our clients, to be very honest, they say one single API is one of those things where you know it needs to be tested because it's not always true, but it's a you almost need to say it, you know what I mean? That's uh sort of but truly, and as I said, of course I would say that, and uh, but we are one single API, and that's really the power of it.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Got it. Yeah. So how much of that comes down to being a licensed bank that clears directly in local markets rather than just the technology that sits on top of other people's banks?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, so so we we don't want to be dependent on you always dependent on stakeholders, right? And that's sort of the obvious, but we don't want to have correspondent bank and they'll ask them because what that means is that operationally it's not the same experience, it's not the same speed, the STP is different, the cost is different, you know, not a single API necessarily, it could be, but so i it makes it very, very different, and that's really so I think that's sort of good technology, but the magic sources to combine good technology with the licensing, right? Because then you get the speed, you control your own destiny, if you will. Uh, you can operate on your own risk appetite. And again, we risk appetite we haven't talked about, but how we screen and the data we can generate, because you know, unlike the legacy bank, is clearly we have good data infrastructure, we have a good data lack, the way we can harness that and see and use AI, frankly, is something that many others cannot, because it's legacy technology, so therefore they can't harness that data. So you need to, when we talk about sort of banking circle and the single API and the technology, it is really sort of through and through how we use data, how we use technology, how we think, the mindset around clients. That's really sort of it. But that licensing piece, that last mile is incredibly important and it's incredibly difficult to replicate.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Absolutely. Yeah. So banking circle now moves over a trillion euros a year. 1.5. 1.5 trillion is my apologies. Um, and on the order of the biggest names in payments, like you see so many other companies talking about how much they're moving, 1.4 trillion all the way up to bigger numbers that we're seeing. Um, as you try to become the infrastructure that others rely on, is staying invisible behind your clients an advantage, or uh is it a problem that you eventually have to fix? Let's say it's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

It is a question we're asking ourselves. Um and as I mentioned before, when I sort of meet a new potential client, and often it's you know, especially from the US, uh, and they might have very bold ambitions, and they're new to Europe and UK, but they'll come and say, Oh, we had never heard about banking circle. And I must say, every time I hear that, it hurts a little bit, right? Um, so there's this continuous conversation, but it's taking a little bit sort of uh more speed or gathering more speed now. Okay, do we need to be better on the branding front? Do we need to be more forward-leaning? And as I think I mentioned before, it's great this thing, client starts with on a specific use case, see what we can, and then we grow massively together. That's fantastic because that's based on real sort of user and text, and they see what we can do, but we need to be better at the branding piece. And in fairness, we we we brought in a new team and a new head about a year and a half ago, and she's done a phenomenal job. I think we probably need a 2.0 now and just really, but again, my personal view, internal discussions, but we need to do a better job.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, and I fully get that. I think nowadays, if you really look at fintech companies, financial companies, everybody's trying to be a part of that conversation. Like if you look at Stripe was probably one of the first payments processes that invested in branding and in marketing and being a logo. Now you see all the others follow you as well, being on the POS devices to having m massive events and bringing people in as well. And I think, of course, if you're moving money on the on, yeah, if you're moving money for those companies, where do you fit within that conversation? How big is your audience that you're actually speaking to? Um, but I do believe it's very important to be visible.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

I I think you are exactly right. And what we're seeing sometimes is the clients of our clients, and not retail clients, but so they can be SMEs, they can be big corporations, even. They're like, okay, great, we want to mandate you, but behind you it's banking circle. Who is banking circle? So we need to create that bigger awareness. It's not just with our clients, it's actually also our clients' clients. Yeah. And that's where we need just to get a bit sharper. But, you know, again, just to also be a little bit fair of everything that has happened over the years, and we are where we are, but have been so many things, and what has been built is really powerful. Okay, maybe we still have a little bit of work to do on branding and how we persist ourselves, if you will, but it has been incredibly busy for the team. But we'll get after it.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Yeah, absolutely. And you're also building something that's going to last, hopefully, for decades to come. So it's much more of a journey that uh as you grow, as you get a reputation, as you continue to have more clients, and you already have more than 900 of those clients, that that builds on itself. And growing organically, especially nowadays, is probably 10 times better than growing through paid advertising or through marketing tricks.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Completely. Completely. It needs to be sustainable, it needs to be valid, uh, additive, it needs to all these things rather than it's easy to go out and buy commercials or ads or pay for, you know, that that's not really sort of uh the right way for us, certainly, but we can still do so much more, right? And you say we're building something to last for decades and decades. So our founder says that it's for eternity. So there you have it, right? Very modestly.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit more about the the owning those reels and especially markets that maybe uh for a lot of companies are still out of reach. Um, when we look at the map, sort of like on a global scale, you see that a lot of the biggest flows in the world are going through, of course, the United States, China, India, Brazil, um, and but a lot of those flows are still going to partner banks. Um, so if I would ask you, does banking circle now realistically already sit on those reels, or is that something that you're looking to build out in the next couple of years?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Yeah, so we need to build out further, without doubt. We haven't provided sort of an end state. This is where we are gonna end up in terms of the clearing capabilities when it comes to too flat. But you mentioned a number of markets that we have looked at and we will look at again. I think we have a very good sort of almost pipeline for the next couple of years, but we need to think about then what? Yeah. And after that time period, we need to start now. So that's why in a couple of weeks we are actually sitting and having this big strategy, global expansion, so right, and that's really what's next. But you know, the premise is really we want to self-clear all the major currencies. Then you can say is it the major 15, major 20, major 25, right? And it's somewhere in between there. And then in some cases, it might be so painful getting our own wealth that we'll rely on correspondent banks. Yeah. But that's got to be sort of unique cases, right? So that's really, and then we are building our stablecoin well as well. We got our casp license, right? So we have leaned in heavily on digital assets. Uh, and we got our cash license in the bank, so license in Luxembourg. So now we can do meekly compliant uh stable coins on and off-ramp, uh, which is a big thing. We are gonna expand that and we are gonna build out the capabilities, and we have a very clear roadmap for that. And the way we see stablecoin is really as another payment rail, if you will. It's another mechanism, right? So if you sit on stablecoin, then okay, you want to actually off-ramp it and get checked for UNA, we can do it instantly. 24, 7365 days. And that's the power of having having sort of our digital asset strategy side by side with our Fiat capabilities, and it's on one single API, right? There was always we built digital asset, it's on the API, period. Uh, so that can be incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Absolutely, because especially the the conversation around stable coins, I'm having probably way too much at this moment, but uh there's trillions of dollars, I think over 30 trillion dollars per year in in stable coin volume. But a lot of that is attributed to trading, right? Markets going in and out of decisions of of crypto. And but there's a growing part of that that's actually about uh payments processing uh and doing that. So where do you when when again we when you focus on when you become a stablecoin issuer and you're doing on-ramp and off-ramp, how does that sit next to the fiat processing that you do? Do you think it will replace it, or do you again think it's a a a complement to that?

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah. No, so so there's everybody will have an opinion about that. I think our position, which I share, but it's also a banking circle position, is there's a clear use case and space for both fiat and stablecoin side by side. And again, earlier today I had a meeting with a quite forward-leaning company that everything they do in treasury already is actually stablecoin in terms of how they manage liquidity and it's it's that which is very smart. And then you have it sort of as payment and just moving money, but it's also how do you run operationally and sort of truly instant, right? So that's uh that that are definitely those use cases, but it doesn't take, in our view, the need for fiat and actually uh having that. So again, we see it as another very important sort of mechanism, if you will. I don't want to call it payment mechanism because it's much more than that, that sit next to the fiat. Uh and and we think also when you look at sort of maybe some of the more exotic currencies, that stable coin will play a big role and maybe replacing part of that flow, even more than sort of some of the Western European or sort of Western uh uh currencies. So we'll see. I think it's gonna be sort of two slightly different worlds, but a very clear use case in both worlds for stablecoin and fiat. But it might just be slightly different weighted depending on sort of where end of all it is.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Absolutely. So I hear a lot of different things, right? It's having licenses, owning the entire network, um, stable coins, of course. That's a massive investment, not just in capital, but also in a lot of the time spent just to get those licenses to build everything out. Why do you think that's a better strategy than just partnering up with other banks and just moving on? Just quick to market, go into as many markets as possible versus putting all those years and all of that investment in there.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Well, I I think you're only gonna solve part of the issue, right? So almost the front end and yes, you could do a single API, yes, you could do a better onboarding that's traditional banks, but you'll go half the way. Operationally, it's very different. The instant capability and truly instant would you would not be able to achieve it in the same way through partner banks, at least sort of to the scale we are trying to do in the breadth. Um, and then frankly, listen, there's a cost element to it, right? With with the legacy banks, uh the cost for your sort of per payment, and they don't look quite at it, but the huge machinery that have been created on the back of that, it's it's very much driven with sort of human capital rather than actually built the technology. So I think sort of it it would almost erode at least sort of the full vision of what our founders haven't go all the way. But you're right, sometimes a regulatory process and actually getting into a sort of market or a particular currency, it is. And it is, right? Sometimes it's better than that, but it's not quick. But I think if you look at sort of what we have now and what's coming, so by end of the year, we would have filled in Europe, yeah. Is I except for Romania. Europe is done. And then Asia, we have great tribes, we already have some, but that's gonna come. Canada will come. Uh so these are sort of probably all 12, 18 months out, everything I mentioned, right? And then we need to do more long. So we're already far along that curve, and we have built the expertise. And we don't stand still and say, okay, then we wait for that, or we wait for that. We keep going, right? And and so we have a very good team uh doing that. So it would be a pity if we started to dilute their original vision because you would only go halfway and it wouldn't be truly instant, at least consistently, it would be more expensive, it's not gonna be the same operational experience, all that. So, you know, personally, I'm I'm excited, but the founders sort of set up and what they've done so far. Uh, I think our clients are excited as well. And I think that's where we really differentiate ourselves. If we had gone half the way.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think if you look at the market right now, there's been some some large acquisitions, of course, of uh like MasterCard has acquired BVNK. Um, we've seen global payments and world pay getting together. So there's a lot of movement within the market. Um, originally, of course, the the the story behind uh banking circles that it was a spin-off and then later on uh uh acquired or at least invested heavily into by uh EQT. Um what does the future for you guys look like? Is that something where, again, you did an acquisition in Australia, which much more uh uh was one of the few exceptions? Is it to continue to go on that growth path of continue to grow where your customers are growing, getting into those licenses, or do you see another strategy that could play out?

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Well, I I I think it is really following our client base and clearly expand our client base. And there are sort of some verticals we are looking at, and because if you look at the product and the capability we have created, there are so many use cases. So we are looking to sort of expand some of the verticals in terms of clients, uh, certainly. And then as you say, we are rolling out the global capabilities with the digital assets. But you know, I wouldn't expect us to do sort of a massive pivot. Clearly, we adjust to the market environment, to what competitors do, what the clients want. So I don't want to say, oh, this is never gonna happen, but I see it as very much an organic story for us. Uh we are, we broke sort of the profitability point about three years ago, maybe 33, 36 months ago. Uh, that was sort of the first month. And now, because of just the growth and how we invested earn on planform, very scalable, great operating leverage, we are very profitable, right? So we have plenty of sort of growth capital and to invest, it's that's not really the constraint. It's more doing it sort of as quickly as we can, but very sustainable and in the right way. Now, with Australia, there was a unique opportunity to acquire, right? And Australia is a very interesting market, an underserved market. Would we do that again elsewhere? Never say never, but it would need to be really unique, right? And that's sort of so it's not gonna be sort of the core of our path, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Got it. So I tend to be a very future-focused person, very upbeat, always very optimistic about the future. Um, however, sometimes we we we deal with roadblocks. So I like to ask my guest, if there's something that you can change right now or that you could eliminate, or something that desperately needs to change in our industry or in your industry specifically, like for instance, does regulation need to be easier or um does it need to be easier to move money across the world? What would that be for you and especially for for banking circle to you know help even more of your clients and continue that growth?

SPEAKER_01 31:06

That that's a great question. And I'm I'm sort of uh as you ask the question, I'm thinking because I want to give a very honest personal answer. I don't want to offend anyone either, right? Because as you I try to be positive and optimistic. So it's that's sort of so no, I listen, I think um and it does vary, but the policy and the policy making is incredibly slow. And it also impacts the regulators, sorry, some regulators and the speed. I must say some regulators are incredibly minded to the future, right? And we have some great examples and great interactions where they're really strategic, think about where they want to get to for the next decades, and really drive that. Other places, and I think the EU is a good example where the sort of the policies and what you want and what you need and facilitate that, it's desperately slow, right? Uh and that's maybe by design. So I would say that's the biggest sort of friction point in general. But I also want to say some places it's actually really, really strong. And I think many other places can learn from those few places that actually do it incredibly well from a policy and regulatory. I know it's two separate things, but I don't want to differentiate particularly because they do go a little bit hand in hand. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Well, I want to thank you very much for joining us here at Executive Conversations and hope to see you soon.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

After this, thank you very much, Fame.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

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