Faith is the Fruit of Obedience

In this episode of The Conviction Exchange, we dive into the connection between faith and obedience. Why is doing the right thing often so difficult? Is obedience just about following rules, or is it actually an expression of trust in God? Through honest conversation, real-life examples, and practical questions, we explore how obedience often comes before understanding—and how faith, peace, and spiritual growth are the fruit that follow. From relationships and finances to everyday convictions, this episode challenges us to see obedience not as perfection, but as a loving response to a God we trust. If you've ever struggled with knowing what God is asking of you or wondered why obedience matters, this conversation is for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, well, welcome everybody to the first episode of the Conviction Exchange. Before we do anything else, Sean, if you're good with it, I am gonna pray. All right. Jesus, thank you for how amazing you are. Thank you for the opportunity to be here today. We just ask that you continue to give us wisdom, anointing, and favor. And everything that we do. It's such an honor and a privilege, Lord, to even get the opportunity to do something like this. We love you and thank you for everything. It's in your name we pray. Amen. All the people said. Yeah, amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Almost coughed right in the middle of your first opening prayer. Have been great.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Right as we start, you cough in the middle of the prayer. That means the Lord would condemn it. Just like that.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

I think so. We're going straight down.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

That's crazy. Well, hey, um, my name is Chandler Guyon. We're super excited um to be here with you today. Um, Sean and I are very uh opinionate. That's terrible language, probably, right? That's pretty accurate. We're very opinionated. But I think what we realized is that there's a so many opinions that are out there in the world, right? Like so many opinions out there in the world. Everybody's got one, but not everybody has a conviction. I think a lot of times I was reading this thing the other day and it said that opinions end where convictions almost start because it stops being an opinion. You you could think, you could think that you were wrong about, or everybody else could think that you're wrong about everything, but if it's a conviction and it's in your heart, you believe it with everything that you got. And so for us, that's Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Could you, I mean I agree, and I think the world's kind of changed. I didn't even think about this. I should have studied, probably. But what you just said was, you know, there's a new phrase that's somewhat new. Kind of weird being the old guy in the room. Yeah. Um, there's a a phrase out there, you know, my truth.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

And it's funny you said as you said that I realize you it's really not, it's just your convictions. Oh, don't, you know, if it's your conviction, like as we'll get to talking about, it's it's what you believe to be your your moral absolutes. Yeah. But it's really not there's no such thing as my truth. The truth is the truth. Um, but we can have our own convictions, and maybe I'm convicted that uh I'm good that Jesus is Lord and He died for my sins and he is the way. But some people might be convicted that I can't eat mushrooms. You know, but that's that's your conviction. But that's saying that's my truth, that mushrooms, you know, cause you to be able to do a backhand spring. That's just that's not the truth.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Whatever. I don't know. But I hear what you're saying because, in all reality, there are, because I think the argument for it would be um there are certain things that people are like, I this is my conviction, like this is my truth, right? No matter because the world is confusing. Let's just call it what it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

So confusing or confused?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Confused. That's good. I said confusing, but I like the way that you put it with confused, because I do think that the world is confused right now, and so there are a lot of confused convictions out there, I guess you could say. And you know, other people would look at us, right, and say the same exact thing. So um that's what we want to explore. We just want to talk about all these different things. We're super excited. We have our own personal experiences. We're gonna have some amazing guests. Um, that's one thing that we're super excited about. Um, people that kind of are walking alongside us, maybe in the faith journey, some of our friends, um, some other people as well that we'll get into. But um I am excited actually to have the opportunity to maybe even sit at the table with somebody or zoom somebody in, whatever it looks like that has the opposite convic conviction. I want to talk about that stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah, and I I was thinking about that. It'd be nice to get people that, you know, just don't even think anything like us. But as long as they're, you know, can have that discussion in a good way and not be uh mean and you know start punching at us and stuff. Yeah. Um but even even having other people that believe maybe have the same faith as us with in Christ, but maybe they they believe the word a little different on certain things. Yeah. That's interesting too. Because I think what you're gonna find is when you iron some of that stuff out, the stuff that you disagree on probably isn't important. Like it doesn't it doesn't even matter. Yeah, but we tend to, and I think the church has done that, is just taking these little things and making it, you know, we got to split the church 14 ways because the carpet wasn't the right kind of color. And that's good. But I think you know, going again, going people maybe they don't even uh believe that Christ is who he said he was, that could be interesting discussions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

I'm I'm excited to get into it, but that you just hit the nail on the head when we just talk about all these different things and um why, and so when you have all these different convictions, right? Because we're gonna talk about obedience today. So um we're super excited to get into all that. Um we are gonna talk about obedience, but a lot of times when people are being obedient, they're being obedient to the conviction that they have. They believe, hey, that I'm doing the right thing. And so you've even in the church, right? You've got these people that are like, oh no, we need the music super loud. Oh no, you're pushing people away. Oh no, if you have the music too loud, then this is terrible. But old people won't want to listen because their heart's about to thump out of their chest, or whatever it may be, whatever it may be. I'm just saying there's so and those are all opinions, and they're some would say they're convictions. I'm just saying that um everybody thinks that they're doing the right thing. So when we just get into it, the basis question I have, it's a perfect transition, is why is doing the right thing so hard sometimes?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Um because we have flesh. Oh uh that's good. And I I had to have this discussion recently with take something like I don't know if we want to go right into this.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Um we do. Just so you're aware, we do. Like that is this people are gonna look at this podcast and be like, oh, we're gonna go deep real quick.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Well, obedience is is is I think I would say probably a large majority of people are are are somewhere in the middle. When you hear the word obedience, it's it's kind of got negative connotations. Like you think of somebody with a whip, yeah, making you be obedient. Yeah, but if you look it up, obedience really is just hearing hearing uh instruction and then applying it applicably to your life. So you here's something. I'll I'll go into this. I'm gonna read the first scripture of our podcast here. Um we should have started with that. With scripture? Yeah. We had you prayed, which is actually a little higher rank than scripture, I think.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Oh, mark that down. All right, right now I'm higher than you.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Romans 1 5, as Paul's just kind of opened up his letter to the Romans, he says, uh, through him and for his name's sake, we receive grace and apostleship to call people from among the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. So your obedience comes from your faith. So if you if you have faith in something, if I had I had faith today that I would be here at nine, um, but I wasn't obedient to that faith and I got here at 9 03. Yeah. Um, but that's the truth. If you hear something and you act on it, that's just having faith. I heard that. That makes sense. I like that. But I think that's what happens today is there's so much stuff out there, and people always hear it, and especially young people, yeah, impressional people, naive people. Yeah, if you don't have a foundation, oh that that sounds good. I'm gonna go try that. You know, and I think that's they're being obedient, but they're being obedient to the flesh, which again, there's a lot going on there.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

But that's actually a really good, that's a really good thought because when you're obedient to the flesh, all of a sudden the things you're basing everything that you're experiencing, even in Christianity, you're basing everything off of a feeling. Like, oh yeah, when you're obedient to the flesh, it's like, oh, I want to be because I I read it the other day, and I think I told you this. Um, it says when you build things or you uh attract people on experience, you have to keep people with experience, right? Like, and when that happens, you're you are um you're give obviously giving people what they want. Like I understand the whole thought process to it, but you're leaning into people's flesh, you're leaning into the fact that now, oh, you want lights, you want this, you want auto-tune on all the voices, you want all these different things, which I'm not saying any of that stuff is inherently wrong. Don't hear what I'm not saying. If I plant a church, like it will be, you know, I love rock and roll, like I love that kind of stuff where the music is booming. But I'll come 20 minutes late. Go ahead. But if there is no um, if there's no maybe discipleship, but I'm not sure that that's the right language here and what we're talking about. I'm just saying when there is no path for somebody that um is obedient through their flesh, when there's no path for them to understand that um obedience to Jesus is gonna get them to the place that they need to be. I think it's a really hard place to get out of the flesh. Does that make sense, or did I just go on a roundabout?

SPEAKER_01 8:43

No, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

I mean, and I think it's hard to get out of the flesh once you're in the flesh. Like it's really, really hard to do.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

So temporary please temporarily pleasing. And you and I both know we've shared our stories. We'll probably share more, Lord willing, if people actually listen to this thing, which uh I'm still not sure if I would. But uh we're we think we're funny. I we we laugh a lot. Yeah, but our stories are horrible. I mean, if as far as the decisions we made younger, and it was all for temporary pleasure or whatever, I needed in the moment. We had, you know. Um but you know, real satisfaction and the joy that comes from walking away from something that you used to do, uh, or making a decision to not do that thing, um it's a higher high than any high the other, you know, I acting on it was. Yeah. Um and I think it becomes habitual. And that being said, like I don't know what camera it looks at me, but um like for me, I grew up in Oklahoma. Yeah. And for from like age 15 or 16 to 18, whereas that was my bulk of my hell in life. I mean, it was awful. Yeah. Uh people, anybody watching this would be like, Well, that dude, like, hey, I apologize. I'm terrible. I was a terrible person. I'm saved and born again.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, I need to go on an apology tour.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah, that was it for me. Uh, it got out there to everybody because I don't even know half the people that I used to run with. Yeah. But it was awful. Um but but I think you just get to a point where you're hoping, and that's why I think we're doing this. We're hoping that our experiences, what we thought we got from it, and then when you come back and you really see, you know, when you actually look and you audit your life and what the what the end of the profits really were at the end, they weren't good.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

You you lose your soul. And and um our hope is just to help help folks to it's for me in my personal life and coaching football and all the things I've done over the years, it's to try to help people learn a little bit from your mistakes so they don't make the same ones I guess.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

But obedience is so situational for people. Um, I think when you talk think about obedience, like a lot of times uh people look at hear that word and it almost is like PTSD. And I say that because I know some friends that like, you know, when you were saying earlier when we started, it's like you think obedience and you think the guy with the whip or the guy or the dad with the paddle or whatever it may be, like it's it's a hard knocks kind of sort of word, and you kind of tense up. It's like I don't want to be obedient. And so it's really hard. I think it's even harder than um to have that relationship with the Lord if He is your father, right? And He wants to there He brings correction and He needs obedience, all these different things. It's really hard for people to get past that because it it does become situational. And so I think that's why people resist it. I think that people, I think that's why for me personally, I went on this run where I'm like I'm not listening to anybody. You know what I mean? Like from 20, from 18, really, to 26, 27, maybe a little, yeah, 25. I don't know. Anyways, don't remember any of that. Praise the Lord. And that's not because I yeah, it was anyways. You fill in the blank there. I'm just saying, um, everybody else told me I need to be doing all these different things, and I didn't want to. And then when people were like, you should be in a relationship with Jesus, I was like, you know, like I that's why I was um resisting it. And so um I think that's why people struggle with religion. I think that's why people struggle with rules. A lot of us, at least for me, what I've recognized is I hate structure, but I thrive in it. And I think all of us do. Um, that's why I have to start my day in the word. I have to the Lord's been asking me to that's like been the biggest thing. Obedience, why to me? Like yesterday when you were talking, you were like, Come to me, is what the Lord says, right? You want all these different things. He's like, Hold up, just come to me. Why not? Hold up, just come to me. And so for me, that's he's been after my obedience and that for a very long time. Chan, I just need you to start your day with me. Like your brain's all over the place. I'm a squirrel. All over the place.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Never notice.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Right, right. Yeah, it's not. You can see me fidging and Ross. If I start fidgeting, like I was saying, just start switching the cameras around, you know? But I do think that um obedience uh obedience is situational, and it's really hard to wrap your head around if you deal with it early on in life. Like, what was that? What was that like for you? Like, when do you feel like you picked up um when when do you feel like like what was there a specific situation in your life where the Lord got a hold of you and it was like, okay, I need to start not necessarily yeah, I need to because really obedience is a or trust is a byproduct of obedience. You start being obedient, things start falling into place all of a sudden you start trusting. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah, uh it's weird because it's funny to listen to your story a little more and knowing the timing of things. Yeah. I feel like when the switch flipped for you, it flipped, but you know, you had a longer period of uh my my thing was it's it's I had it's it's a multi-process because I'm 54 and I still like I feel like I'm just now starting to figure some things out, but I got a lot to figure out. Yeah. But I got saved when I was like 13, you know, I said the prayer and all that stuff, but then I went back, I was here visiting. I went back home to Oklahoma and just you know, next five years was just do whatever. Um but even then you I get married at 21. Um I'm in church. You know, I found a church, went there, loved the pastor. Tried to, but I was trying to be religious. Yeah. I think. You know, looking back on it, I was trying to check the boxes and be a religious.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

If nobody's helping you through that process, yeah, that's a that's a byproduct of you trying to be obedient.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

And there's people trying to help me, but I was so stubborn that I just you know, I remember hearing about the envelope system from Larry Burquette, and I was like, whatever, you know, I'd rather be just broke all the time, I guess. And and just we just didn't do the things to nurture a relationship. Yeah. It was just trying to show up on Sundays and play on the basketball teams and do the things, but it was just it was not a relationship with Christ. It was it was religion.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

And I think it's funny because just in the last six or seven years, I've I've been married again. I've been married for 21 years now with um my wife and after both of us had a failed marriage from terrible decisions.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Um and it's just now in the last few years, but what you just said is impactful and it's kind of crit it's kind of getting to me because I was reading my word every morning for for a long time. And here in the last, I'd say, month or so, I've gotten a little lazy with it, to be honest. And you're right, getting up, getting in the word, reading a little bit, praying some, uh, it just makes the day go a little smoother. I think you gotta get the Holy Spirit knowing, hey, you're involved today.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

You know, what because a lot of days I'm like, hey, why don't you just sit down in there somewhere and I got this? Yeah. And uh those days don't go as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

I mean, seriously though.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

It's true. It sounds silly, but it's true.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

But I like what you said because I think for some people here too, is like, I don't want you guys, anybody that's listening, I don't want you to think that like if you're in an area, because like for you, you got into church when you were younger and it felt super religious. But here's the crazy thing you were being obedient for the knowledge that you had, right? Does that make sense? And I say that because obedience creates fruit, and then all of a sudden, fruit, fruit becomes or um, faith becomes the fruit of the obedience, and all of a sudden you start realizing that you want to now trust the Lord with all the situations that you're in, whether you understand them or not. Because in all reality, you were in this scenario where everything felt super religious and you were just checking the boxes, you know. But that may that's what you needed at the time. And for me, I look back on it. Did I get hurt in some scenarios with the church? Absolutely, like I got hurt, but that scenario changed my life. It changed my wife and I's marriage, it changed my wife and I's life. Like when we have it, it's just it's but it was literally obedience, like all of a sudden we had a bunch of fruit, like we had a bunch of fruit in our lives, and it was because we took that step of obedience, and we may not have understood it. And in the midst of it, you look back on it now and it feels like religion. I'm just like, oh, I'm taking the steps. But that structure sometimes, and I'm don't hear what I'm not saying, everybody. I'm not saying that if you're in a religious environment and you recognize it and it's not healthy, well, it's just structure and you should be there. No, I'm just saying when you look back on things, the Lord has you in scenarios that you need to be in in order for you to grow. Because now here you sit and we're here hosting this podcast together, and we're getting the opportunity to have a platform to give it to Jesus. You own a business that um you probably never thought that you would own, and you're able to give back you know more than you ever thought that you could give back to the community and to the church and make a massive difference. And um, it's just the coolest thing in the world. And so that is fruit. Like, and you wouldn't have so let's go back through it. Is obedience creates fruit, and that fruit is faith. It's so it's the coolest thing in the world because then you end up in these scenarios like this doesn't make any freaking sense, but I know that if he brought me to it, right? The cliche is saying if he brought me to it, he's gonna bring me through it. Come on, baby.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah, you're right, and it is funny to think back about I think, and and I and I I sent a Bible so with some guys a few years ago, and it it made a lot of sense though, where I think we get so caught up in the law and and real and and don't realize it's really about grace. We think it's about law and rules, but that's why Jesus came, because the law wasn't working. Yeah, you know, people we tried, it was good. I mean, and and even when you're raising your kids, it's like you want your kids to be obedient because if you're being a good doing a good job as a father, which for me I had no example of that. You know, my dad died when I was 12. Um if you if you so I don't really I don't have daddy issues, I don't have mommy issues, I don't have anything to blame it on.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

I have flesh is I have flesh issues, but that's also just daddy issues, mommy issues, you combine those two things, it's flesh issues. I'm just kidding. I'm an adult, man.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

And I gotta make my own decisions. And once I was to an age, it's not I can't blame other people. It's I I know better.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

We could do a whole nother podcast on that. We could do a whole nother episode on that of people just blaming people for the things that they've walked through. When you get to the point in your life, you can only blame people for so long, but that's a sidebar. I apologize.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

And I wanted to raise my my boys and girls to uh uh to just here's here's what we expect. Here's uh here's the rules, our expectations. Not because I love watching, making rules and watching you, you know, stumble or whatever, or watching you obey them, but it's for your own good. It's because we love you and we want what's best for you. We don't want you falling in pitfalls, we want you to do get the right things, we want you to have a better life than we had. Uh and I think that's when you get to that point with the Lord that God gives us a lot of instruction here. Uh the Holy Spirit gives us a lot of inspiration. Yeah. But it's for our own good. He he's not saying do this, this, and this because I'm God and you have to obey. It's, hey, this is what's best for you, man. Yeah. If you do these things, if you try to follow this, if you if you implement this, if you make decisions based on this, life's better.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

And and it isn't, and God's been so faithful. It's not just uh, you know, owning a business. You're right. I never saw any of this coming. Yeah. Uh I I finished the 10th grade of high school. You know, again, we'll probably get more into that later. Uh I didn't finish. That was it. Uh made a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

People need to hear that, man.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

People need to be able to do it. But I don't like when I coached football for 20 years, I didn't want to tell my sixth graders, yeah, hey, I finished the 10th grade and I started selling drugs at Jamaica Joe's down in Midwest City.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Jamaica Joe's.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

It's a pool hall, man. It was a pool hall.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

It was cool.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Uh, can you take me there?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

You could do it. Is it still a little bit? I don't want to get into I I won't get into all the details. Trying to keep this a family podcast.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

But um There's a mark on there that it says, does this podcast contain explicit material? And I did not check that.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

It wasn't explicit. I was just going to describe what I sold and how much I how much it was and how much inflation has probably been left.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Some people that are listening to this podcast would actually be mad because they're gonna be the inflation part, they're gonna be like, what? You pay a dollar a joint for a dime bag.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

A dime bag was a dime. It was it was ten bucks. No way. Man, I don't know what they are nowadays. You probably wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

No, when I sold it, I just smoked it all up.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

That was that was the worst.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

I just smoked it all up. No profit channeling. Yeah, it would get fronted to me, and then I'd be like, oh, they owe me this much. I'd be like, yeah, yeah. And it wasn't good. There's somebody stopped that that's listening to this is probably gonna run into the man.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

I can need him up for the hundred bucks that you owe me.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Let's hope not. Let's hope not. We uh I thought I did run into one of those guys.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

I ran into one of those guys when I had it together, right? Uh literally, he was a bouncer at a door at a at a club. This is not a joke.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

A distributor kind of guy?

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Yeah, no, I read into him and he looks at me. I looked at him and I was like, How much do I owe you? He was like 200 bucks. I was like, cool. Because I was going to watch my buddy play. Um he was playing a show. And so I literally went out to the ATA. It was like one of those ones outside, so it was like a $20 ATM fee. Grabbed my wife. I was with Carly at the time, and she looked at me and she was like, What are you doing? I was like, just hold on. So go on in, I'll be back, you know. And uh came back out, handed in the money, just kind of gave him one of those. He was like, and that was that. So I have had that happen.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

No kidding.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

It really happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

You had a chance to share the ward with him right there. Yeah, but I wasn't in the entry of that bar.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

That's really good. I just to me, uh, I look back on that and I'm like, man, I wasn't even in a place to do that. I just knew that I had the money that I could spare. And uh he wasn't the nicest guy in the world. So it, you know, most of those guys aren't. So for me, it was like, well, um, I could see myself being in that bar and getting hit in the back of the head with a beer bottle, and then everybody runs away. It's like, I don't know who did it. Yeah, well, okay. That's a good story. That got super, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

I never had any of that. My buddy's little daddy, uh, that's what we called him. He grew it.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

My buddy's little daddy.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

I'll just call him Chris in case somehow, somehow he ends up watching this thing. Yeah. Uh he he good they grew it in their backyard.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

So that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

All right, let's get off the drug. Let's get off the drug stories.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Little daddy grew it in his backyard. Come on, somebody.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah. We used to play ball together. Uh but anyhow, no, I never saw any of this coming. Um, but you know, when God gives you stuff, uh uh people ask me all the time, you know, well, how are you gonna get through that? Or I'm God's rich. Like God's super rich.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Um, so I ain't that worried. We try to we try to be mindful and you try to run things right, and you try to keep balance the books and and be responsible, but and be stewards of what God's blessed you with, because I could be broke tomorrow, I could be a billionaire tomorrow. Yeah. But either way, I'm gonna die with zero and oh and and be looking at Jesus going to be like, Jesus!

SPEAKER_00 23:57

You're so right. Hallelujah, Lord! That's so good. You're gonna die with zero. What are you doing over there? People need you like that? That's my real thing. That's why, you know, like when you hit the button, bam, bam, bam, bam. Hallelujah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Not me, man. Oh, come on. I'll show up when the worship's over. I know that's probably wrong.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

You're the word. I know the worshipers led the way, it says in Psalms. All right. All right, fine. But here's the thing, though, to to kind of um, because you talk about, you know, raising your kids and you talk about um uh God takes us through things to get us to these other things, like usually fruit comes after the discomfort, right? And so it comes after the discomfort. So for you, like even having the opportunity to give the way that you give, to do what you do, um, for us to even do something like this, like there was a lot of discomfort on the backside. And I think that um people need to know that. People need to know that when you make that decision, even just let's just talk about salvation, let's just talk about the initial uh experience. You experience Jesus in a mighty way, and somebody's like, Jesus, I give my life to you. This is it. You don't think the de I need somebody to hear me when I say this today. You don't think that the devil is coming after you and he's terrified of the decision that you just made? He's terrified. And so that initial decision that we made, I think sometimes we drop the ball as individuals, just as Christians in general, or like, this is the people, this is the group of people that we should be worried about, really. Like worried about because people need to be equipped to know that like the discomfort is coming. Like when you make that decision to follow Jesus, don't be surprised when you go outside and your car doesn't start. Don't be surprised when you're driving down the road and you hit the biggest pothole in the state of Indiana, and there are some potholes in Indiana. I had one about eat my car the other day. I felt like I literally almost ate my car. I'm just saying, the discomfort is coming, but the fruit is coming also, you know? And there's gonna be the Lord's gonna ask for your obedience in the midst of that. He's gonna lead you, he's gonna guide you, he's gonna ask you to scoot your seat up a little bit closer to his table because he's gonna guide you through the valley because a news flash, right? The life that we live is not meant to be lived on the mountaintop. It's meant to be lived in the valley. There are people that are like they experience this mountaintop salvation moment, and then it's like, well, I just want to stay up here. Well, how in the world are you gonna create the disciples that the Lord's asking you to create or you know, make disciples is what the Bible says. So, how in the world are you gonna do that if you're just staying up here on this mountaintop and you're not worried about any of the people down here?

SPEAKER_01 26:34

That's true, and and and it's just life, you know. And it's funny, I joke around with you a lot and and and Travis who works here, that uh about over we can I think people can over-spiritualize everything. Well, the devil did it, you know. Well, God don't want that. I it may be, you know, it all may be. But but the fact is, we've got to uh we just gotta stay the course. We gotta come to me. We gotta be with the be with the Lord, and we gotta know. And it's when when you in scripture, the only time Jesus was on the mountaintop that I can recall was when the devil was trying to tempt him. So when you're up there, you can be tempted. But you think I'm uh you think I got it together. And I've had those moments of like, look at this, look at this money in the bank right now.

unknown 27:13

Woo!

SPEAKER_01 27:14

I can't believe it. But I've made but I feel like you know, God says that ain't yours. Yeah. And you got to remember that. And uh, you know, money, cars, fame, whatever, people treat you different when you start having a little success. I've felt that a little bit. Uh I can't imagine being a pastor. Like we I saw that thing on the Babylon B the other day. That did you see that the one where it said that uh a lucky congregant wins uh sweeps at his church that he gets he actually gets to meet the pastor? I I think it's funny. But I I I I hate I would hate to be that. I would because you can't be everything for everybody. Yeah, that's good. So how do you figure out how to how to connect to the people around you? Yeah, and and I've said it a thousand times, my kids hear me and my wife hears me, but um you can have all kinds of things. But if you got people in your life that you love that love you back, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

That's that's would be a conviction of mine is try to love the people around you. And because if you're living in a life of love and you're living in a life with uh uh the red clay stray's got a new song out that's and he talks about just being grateful and and sitting around a table and every seat's full.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

That's where it's at. Yeah. And we got such you and I both got such good friends. Yeah. We got our little group chat that's hilarious, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Chat GPT really look, it this is an official Chat GPT shout out. You can do some funny pictures with Chat GPT. I just want everybody to know. Um I've never had it shoot it back and say, I can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

No. When we make Pastor Joel in a speedo preaching, come on, uh talking about he would have walked on the water. He would have got out of the boat. Yeah. He would have because he was ready. He had a speedo on. But that's the kind of stuff though, you but anyhow, having friends, having family that love you, having being tight with your kids. Um But all that That's well, so much more valuable than any dollar bill.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Absolutely it is. I think all that too, you can tie like when we talk about the discomfort and all these different things, having family. I've recognized, um, and I think to speak to what you're saying about a pastor can't be everything to everybody, like that's a really hard thing to do. But what you can be is be something to the people in your circle.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah, you got a disciple, you gotta have a leadership team. Our company wouldn't have grown from four to thirty-two in what, six years without having what happened when I started giving stuff off to people I trust and they started doing great work.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

And you're actually allowing them to do it. You know what I mean? Amen. Yeah. Because I think that that is one of the that's one of the things that I really enjoy about the disciples and Jesus is like he poured into the 12th, right? He poured into them and he said, I mean, you gotta think these guys were nuts though. Like some people say that they were young, like super young. And so, with that being the case, I think about Peter. That dude, if he's anything, well, but if he's anything like they'd portray him on the chosen and all these different things, like he was nuts wanting to fight all the time and do all these different things. But the Lord said, Hey, bro, on this rock, I'm gonna build my church. He couldn't have said that, like it were there some doubts. Like, if I'm the Lord, if I'm Jesus, I'm like, we'll see how this goes. But I knew something, like you, but he saw something, and he was willing to walk next to him after he commissioned him. Does that you see what I mean? He's like, hey, I'm gonna do this, but like I also am gonna walk with you. I'm also and when you pour into those people, like those 12 created 12, and those other, you know, I mean, all of a sudden you got 24, and then next thing you know, we're talking about 12 guys who went and were commissioned with the Holy Spirit and changed the entire world. Yeah, now we're sitting here 2,000 years later and talking about Jesus on a podcast, you know what I mean? Yeah, like it's crazy, and it was harder to reach people back then, and so um it's just crazy to me. But I think a lot of that too, um, when you talk about allowing people to actually lead, allowing people to fail. I think that's another thing too. As you're you're allowing, like when you you can't tell me that when you decided, okay, I'm gonna hand these couple things off, that those people didn't fail at some point.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

They did, you know, and I would try to micromanage and be like, hold on here. And and even my own son, uh, my youngest son, uh, has has quite a role here, and he's kind of told me a little bit, you know, that you kind of go, let's do this, you know, and and I have to listen. And and if it's a big thing, you gotta get involved. But you know, you just made me think of something I hadn't really thought of. Like Peter, who I just love, and I do think the way the Chosens portrayed him is pretty awesome. Yeah. Um who knows? But it's it's the things he did along the way, and Jesus, like, Peter, you know, Peter, you cut the dude's ear off. You did this, you did that. You you want to be the greatest. Or where's that? John and James, I don't know. Uh, but then then you know, hey, you're gonna deny me. No, I'm not. Peter left the church. Honestly, when when Jesus was in front of him and he's over there, you know that guy? No, I don't know the guy. He left the church. I mean, if you think about it, that's what he was doing. Like, I don't that guy, no, I never met him, never seen him in my life. I'm not even from here, you know. Peter, and then what did you what was Jesus' response when Peter denied him and turned his back and said, I ain't involved in this deal. Like he literally left the church. So what did Jesus do? He said, Hey, come here, have some fish. Do you love me or not? Yeah. All right, feed my sheep. He didn't turn his back on him, you know. He didn't say, I'm cutting you off forever. There's something to be learned there. Yeah. And I have a tough time with that. If I got people that I have run-ins with at um, especially younger, um, it's easy just to say and avoid them. And then in our world today, you can pretty much avoid somebody, you know, and after a while, um, you may run into them in an awkward situation. And then you're like, hey man, I nowadays it's like some of my best friends are guys that I I've had run-ins with. Like I've had shooting shell yelling matches usually related to football. But um that forgiveness, that level of what Jesus did with Peter, as you say that, it it's it's next level.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah, but you recognize too that as a leader, so we're let's just talk about that in general, since we're kind of hitting on that, we're kind of going that direction. As a leader, you have to be willing to have the car hard conversations, but there also has to be love on the backside because in all reality, when you have a hard conversation with somebody who is not equipped necessarily to have that conversation, you know that they're not, but they need the correction, you have to be willing to say, Hey, I let me walk you through, like you have to be willing to still show love in the midst of it. Does that mean like you have to be willing to have the hard conversation because the fruit comes out of that, being able to bring correction in the right way. And it's not hard if you're just speaking truth into somebody's life. I think so much we get into these scenarios where we think about it way too much. Like for me, one thing that I'm very good at, and I will say that with confidence because I have forced myself to be that way, I just don't think, and which has gotten me into trouble. Notice that. Yeah, which has gotten me into trouble often. But when it comes to hard conversations and things that I'm feeling, if I feel something's off or I feel like I need to have this conversation with somebody or whatever it is, I just have it and I let the chips fall where they may, but I know if I'm doing it out of the lens of love, if I'm doing it out of the lens of love, then the Holy Spirit will take care of it because that's what that's what the Bible says. And it that's what I mean, let's just get into the world. We talk about the world, and that's what a lot of kids, kids, you know, young adults, whatever, everybody has such strong opinions on this and this. And so when you come at somebody to just have a conversation with them and bring truth, and it may not even be biblically based, it doesn't matter. You have a conversation with them, all of a sudden they're like, Oh, you're offending me. Oh, I can't talk about that. Oh, because they speak your truth, is what they lean. And people are like, This is my truth. You can't talk to me about that stuff, you can't have the and you're some kind of an is used to what I mean. Yeah, like it's a really hard everybody's super sensitive about something like that when I think that is one of the main things that we need back in our society, especially as men. We have to be willing to have conversations, especially with our close friends. That's why I love our friend group. Like for us, we're just constantly, you know. I remember the other day we were talking about something, and we were like, uh, we came back together, and we were all like, you know, we probably shouldn't have been talking about that. You know what I mean? Like, that was super cool for me. That was for me as the youngest member of our group or whatever you want to call it. Like that made me realize, Lord, thank you. So in that moment, I was like, Lord, thank you so much for blessing me with these men. Thank you so much for giving me these guys in my life that are gonna bring correction to me. And even if it hurts, I have to be willing to receive it. But the Lord has taken me on that journey because for me, and it, you know, five, ten years ago, you would have said something like that to me. I would be like, All right, you know, and then talked about you.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Like gossip is fun, and the gossip's funny. We're we're a funny group of dudes that can throw some sharp ones out there, but uh, there's somebody else on the other end of that gossip, you know, that we got to think about. And that's the that it gets back to what you were just saying, the leadership. It's we can do a whole message on merit versus grace. I think the world leads by merit, you know. Yeah. The world is what have you done for me lately? What can you produce? That's the end of it. As a Christ follower, whether you're a business owner, a football coach, a worship leader, whatever, um grace and merit, that balance is really hard. I want to be a grace-based person, but you know, but at the same time, if I'm a pastor or if I'm a business owner and you gotta make decisions on merit on a on maybe an employee, maybe you gotta let somebody go, maybe you gotta cut somebody's pay, maybe somebody's getting a raise. They're always gonna look at you like if you have to let someone go. And I've had to do this a few times, very few times, but it hurts. And then they hate you, unfortunately, because it's they it's for them, it's always personal.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

And and it would be for me too. Um, but trying to balance that I care about the person more than I care about the profits. But at the same time, when you're running a church or you're running a business or whatever, it has to be successful as a whole.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

And if if m moving a few pieces out and a couple pieces in or moving pieces around helps that be more healthy and grow better, and and and whatever your goal is, our goal is to put in speakers and microphones and cameras. I don't know, actually, I don't know what we do anymore. But but we have to make a profit to to stay in business. Yeah. Uh at a church, uh, and this is where I think uh let's go a million ways. But as a church, are people finding Christ, getting accepting Christ and building a relationship with Christ and becoming the next people to bring the next guy to Christ. Yeah. What else is there? Yeah. I mean, we all there's all the bells and whistles and things you can do to help people and bring them in and make sure their kids have this program or that program, and the adults can go here. Um, but you know, it's with what we're trying to do is one thing, what with what a church is trying to do is another thing. I I wouldn't have any idea how to lead a church. I think I could start some things, but that'd be a lot trickier, I think.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

But we talk about my biggest thing with just and we're talking about church and business and all these different things. Um, I think at the core of it all, it's just a bunch of people, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

It's just a bunch of people, a bunch of messed up people. It's a bunch of messed up people, and I just want to love people well. So whether it's you let somebody go, and if I'm saying this and you know, you feel like you've never done this or what, because I am a victim of this as well, I've let people go in the church world. Like that was really hard for me, you know? And I should but now I'm convicted, I've gone through this a couple times now, and even whether it's business or whether it's church, I think that we're responsible, if the Lord has put it heavy on our hearts, to follow up with those people and say, Hey, like, how are you? That was a really hard thing. Because when we talk about hard conversations like we were talking about earlier, um when we talk about hard conversations and the things that we were talking about earlier, um, you have to be willing to recognize if somebody receives that not well in the moment, is it our responsibility as a leader to follow up and say, Hey, how are you? Hey, I know that sucked. Hey, um, how's your family? Um, and I needed to be better at that. So the things that I experienced to walk through, it's like, man, I can't imagine now. And I think I get, I have like a righteous anger for it, and it's not good. Like, I need to, I need to ask the Lord to heal me of that, but I do. I just want people to know that they are loved no matter what. You know, I want people to understand, especially as a man, a man of God now, for me, I'm like, I just don't ever want anybody, I don't want to give anybody the opportunity to be jaded towards Jesus, you know? Right. Like I just want people that's really what matters. Yeah, that's right. That's what I'm saying. Business or church, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

But they're still good with Jesus, I'm a good person. Come on, man. I'm still good with that. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Like that's um, but I want also want I would love for people to understand whether, you know, people just taking a journey in general, and we talk about obedience and you know faith being a byproduct, faith being the fruit of obedience, all these different things, like when all of a sudden you start scooting your seat up a little bit closer to the Lord's table, however you want to put it, your life is all of a sudden filled with peace. And that is the a peace that passes all understanding. So when when you say that, when people say that, I think sometimes we're like, I don't even know what that means. That's the point. Like the point is I look at my life now. I have two children, two amazing kids, an amazing wife. You know, we're just fortunate enough to live where we live, and I look back on my life and I'm like, this don't make any sense. But it all started with obedience. Yeah, it all started saying yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Obedience to the right things.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

That's really good. Because we were being obedient before.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Oh, be obedient to the flesh.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yeah. Well, that that's great. That that puts it in perspective. You want to talk a little bit about uh you want to talk a little bit about next week, um uh our guests and and and what we're thinking of doing there.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Yeah. So um you can probably tee that up a little bit more than I can. Um, but I am super excited. I kind of touched base on it earlier. We're gonna have some cool guests. Um, but next week we actually get the opportunity to have Phyllis Robertson Thomas. Um she is the daughter of Phil Robertson, who passed away not too long ago, and she actually has an amazing story, an amazing testimony. Um how she found Phil later in life. They took a DNA test. It's it's one of the coolest things in the world. And so if you um don't know who Phyllis is, you will know who Phyllis is. And I would encourage you to go. Um, if you're listening to our podcast today, I would encourage you to go and follow Phyllis and her husband on Instagram, on all her socials, all that fun stuff, because they are an amazing couple. They have Tony's art is the coolest thing in the world. I love watching his videos. I checked him out last night and I'm like, man, this is cool. Like his process is super cool. Some of the paint, some of the paintings you've had him do, that's cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

He's gifted, and they're great people. Uh Phil, they'll be here next week. Phyllis will be sitting in that chair next to you. Yeah, that's good. Um, we've been fortunate to become really good friends with him over the last few years. Again, she'll talk more about her uh story. Uh we kind of found it through that um story. My wife went through a similar DNA deal where I became a DNA expert. And Phyllis was insurance.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

I'm gonna jack of all trades, but a master of one thing. What would that be? Jesus. I'm a master of Jesus. I didn't know where to go. Hey, you do know a lot about A V, though. I'll give you that. Like audio and video.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Some of that.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

You rattle that stuff off. What are you? The only person in the company that's what? What is it?

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Well, I'm CTS certified in all three phases. I didn't want to we should probably can you put that up there on the kidding. It's really not a big deal. I'm a good test taker, but I don't remember anything.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

It's not a big deal, but anyhow, back to Phyllis.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

She'll be here next week. Uh her story's phenomenal. She's a she's a nurse, she's a therapist, she's a lot like her dad, super smart. Um she will add a lot to the conversation. Yeah, and she'll have some good questions and we'll be able to uh talk with her. But yeah, her book's coming out. Uh, we should have it here in the warehouse next week. That's why she's coming up to sign a bunch of pre sale copies. I NeverNew Book.com. If you get a chance, go look at that. Um see a little bit about our story. But that's going to be a fun week. And we got a lot of guests lined up beyond that. Channelers pulled in some people. We just want to have some fun, but we want to help people get a little bit better and maybe help somebody find something they don't have.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yeah, I think that's really good. Find something that you don't have, right? Um for us.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Humility for you. I'm sorry. I'm just kidding. For me, it's a it's a good diet.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

We're gonna be more than those. I looked at myself on the camera, dude. I'm more motivated to lose weight than ever after a while seeing myself on camera.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Are you?

SPEAKER_01 44:38

No. But I look terrible. I just want to get a bigger table. Carry on.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Hey Ross, can you uh move the camera angle up a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Like can you AI like 50 pounds off my waist?

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Oh, that is so funny. But I think too, just to wrap up, um I feel like it's really hard for people when we talk about Christ and we talk about Jesus, it's really hard for people to obey something that you can't see. It's really hard for people something that's tangible, right? Um I always tell people this maybe the challenge that you need today is I want to encourage you to take the next month, spend time with Jesus every day, whether it's 10 minutes, five minutes, just spend time with Jesus every day and start trying to be sensitive to his voice, reading the Bible, let it speak to you. And I'm telling you, if in a month your life hasn't got somewhat better and you feel like he's not asking you, and you like because you will feel like he's asking you to take that next step in obedience, I want to encourage you to take that next step today. I just want to encourage you um to give it all to him and allow him to reveal himself to you because even though he can't you can't see him, I promise you, you can feel him. I promise you, when you let the Holy Spirit into your life and you know run your thoughts, you submit every thought, make it captive to Jesus Christ. When you start doing those things, all of a sudden you're gonna be like, Wow, I'm looking through a whole different lens, maybe is the is the way to put it. Like, um it's all of a sudden you feel you you you start trusting the Lord a little bit more, you have a fear for him as opposed to a fear of your situations, you start fearing Jesus, fear and not being in a relationship with him, because like you were talking about in this last month, you can feel the difference of not being in the word. Yeah, you can feel the difference of not because you it almost feels like you're letting down a friend, it feels like you're letting down a father, and it like is a weird way, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah, I think the Holy Spirit uh wants to commune with the Lord, and I think uh I think I'm everybody says, you know, I'm not being fed. I'm not feeding, I'm not feeding the Holy Spirit, I'm not feeding good things into my own life. Yeah, I can't blame nobody for that. It's right here. Oh, that's really good. There's plenty of plays to find and there's plenty of things out there, plenty of podcasts, there's plenty of things to listen to, plenty of books to read. Uh I have a tough time reading any other book other than the Bible, to be quite honest with you. I'm not much of a reader. Um, but if if I'm not being fed, it's my own fault.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

That's really good. So we talk about something too that if you can't see something, it's really hard to obey. And I think that the real problem is like the root cause is like people want control. Yes, we do. People want control, and so certainty, they want certainty, and they think that they're the only ones since they're physical, they're here. They can do the right things, and that offers a certainty, but that certainty just really is control. So when you can let go of control of your own life and you say, Lord, I put my faith in you, I'm just gonna be obedient to you. My conviction is to give it all up and to lay it down because I know somebody's listening today and they're like, Man, I just need to give it all up and let the Lord have it. Doesn't mean that you don't have a responsibility and take an action in some things in your life, but what I'm saying is let God be God and let him figure it out, let him just be obedient to that next thing, that daily bred principle, and start fearing the Lord and just have a holy fear of him and just let him speak into your heart. Amen. If you love me, it says in John 14, 15. If you love me, obey my commandments. As far as I'm concerned, I love the Lord. Do you love the Lord? I think so. You think so? I know so. That doesn't feel super common.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Not nearly as much as he loves me.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Praise the Lord. Well, hey, um, we're super excited once again. Um, thank you so much for joining us here at the Conviction Exchange today. Um, we're gonna have a bunch of different guests. We're super excited just to talk about these basic things, different real real world principles, things that we've walked through in our lives, things that people are walking through as well, um, different situations in people's lives, whether or not we'll get the opportunity once we figure this out. Like we're gonna be watching different. I think there's things that we um would love to speak to. We probably have our own opinions on some things that are going on in the world right now. Um probably it might not. It'll be it'll be real fun.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Yes, sir. I can't wait. I'm excited about it. Um curious to see see how how we're able to help people and looking forward to reading your comments and seeing if there's anything that um any suggestions of subject matter, and yeah, um just different opportunities to start helping serve people and build the kingdom. That's what we're here for.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Build the kingdom. Well, hey, everybody, faith is the fruit of obedience, and as far as I'm concerned, we could all lose. Lose, no, we could all use a little bit more faith and trust Jesus a little bit more until next time. My name is Chandler. I'm Sean. Come on, I was wondering if you were gonna pick up. You let it go. Let's try it again. Until next time, my name is Chandler. His name is Chandler. And that's Sean. And this is the conviction exchange. Thanks for joining us, y'all.