Fish in a Tree Chapter one

In today's episode, as we start to learn about Ally in chapter one, Candice and Mikaela side quest to explore Mikaela's discovery of her own dyslexia (seriously, whoever decided how that word was supposed to be spelled was being very mean). They also explore assumptions about what constitutes a normal experience. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello and welcome to Mysteries of Mythology. I'm Michaela. And I'm Candice. And today we're going to start diving into Fish in a Tree, which is a novel about a sixth grade girl living with dyslexia, not really knowing what it is, and kind of discovering herself along the way. This is a book that I had not read. I've now finished the whole series before we're starting recording. And Candice has read a lot. So she's kind of going to be doing our summary because she's our summary girl because she's amazing at it. And I read Google on Side Quests.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Yes, that and I usually have the book. You usually read on your phone. There is always that. So Candace, take it away. All right, chapter one, in trouble again. So we kind of start off kind of jumping right into a classroom setting where our main character, Allie, is being told she needs to write and she's refusing to do it. And Allie is kind of using lots of strategies that kids typically use. She tries to distract a bit, um, get other kids laughing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

I will say though, when this like book started, it was like so abrupt. Like I so I I started listening to it on Spotify and I stopped it because I was like, I missed something. Like there has to be something before that sentence. There was not. It starts with it's always there. And I was like, oh, okay. What's always there? What is happening? Um, so I actually started this book and then like spent 15 minutes trying to find the sentence before that, only to find that it was in fact not there.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

No. Yes, it is kind of an abrupt start. Yes, but I don't know, almost refreshing almost because it's instead of a lot of just like background information and introduction, it's just a we're going. You gotta figure it out. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

And with this writing, a couple of the things that she said really stuck out uh to me. Like, I knew this was gonna be about like I knew the main character was gonna have dyslexia. Some of the things really like hit hard when I heard it. Like she said, what if I told you I was going to climb a tree using only my teeth? Would you say I could do it then? And like this is the point in the book where she's like really hiding her struggles, afraid to like tell people. That is also like super blatant. Like there's a significant problem and you're ignoring it. Yes. And you know, that somebody's like, Why don't you act normal for once? Yep. And I'm asking for a page.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Well, I sit there and immediately my very first note is about after the mean girl who said the kind of the comment about acting normal talks about a kid named Albert who's worn the same thing every single day. And that immediately I'm like, okay, because I mean, granted, I did read this book, but I had forgotten like bits and pieces of things. And so I'm like, okay, immediately, kid wearing the same thing again every day. Either that's a favorite or he doesn't have enough clothes, which is it.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

I didn't dwell on that piece yet. Um that I caught later. But like one thing is like, you know, I'm just asking for a single page. I just want you to write one page about yourself. A page is so much. A page is so much, but it's also like they always it's phrased in such a reasonable way. Like, I'm just asking for this one little thing. It's never that easy. And like she kind of gets into this in her the next sentence, and I think this kind of like could leads to like my issues with this. But she talks about I can't think of a worse thing than having to describe myself. But I hate talking about myself. Me, I have recently so I'm a part of a community coalition and they want me to like write a bio about myself, and it's just a paragraph, just a couple sentences. I haven't done it because every time I sit down to do it, I can't come up with a single interesting thing about myself. Am I aware that there's interesting things about me? Yes. Am I aware that there are relevant pieces of my background that are helpful for this coalition that I should just be able to put on the page? Yes. Am I able to come up with any of those things?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

No, no. Oh, anytime I have to write some sort of like information about myself, it's always the most basic of facts. And I always get kind of annoyed because I'm like, I feel like a friend of mine should write this for me.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Maybe we should write each other's things from now on.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

There we go.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Because like that's the other thing. Like, there's like I can talk about Candace for a long time. I have talked about Candice for a long time. When I talk to people about the show, I spend most of my time talking about how cool it is that you're on the show with me. And because that's easier, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Like Right. I know. And it's it's very fun because it's like I think you talk about our podcast way more than I do. Like, I don't talk about it a lot because all like one thing I'm like, I don't know how many of like my coworkers I want listening to me ramble on, especially because I definitely talk about kids. Granted, I don't use names, but if they had that kid, they're gonna know immediately what I talked about. I'm pretty sure in one episode I very clearly remember even like apologizing to my principal for something.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

I do remember that happening, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

And so like, uh, I mean, I'll cat I can't I'll kind of like barely mention it. And luckily no one really like notices because they're talking about other things as well, just to ask follow-up questions.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

I always get follow-up questions because that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Anyways, back to the story. I like like Allie then kind of compares how teachers are very similar, like you know, like you you know what you're going to get, but like you kind of don't, like you don't know exactly how it's going to look. And then the teacher starts talking about her drawings, and if she wasn't drawing all the time, maybe her work would get done.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Which is so sad. I haven't worked in middle schools in quite some. I'm aware that I haven't worked in middle schools in quite some time, but this is this is sixth grade, but it's like in this setting, it's technically an elementary school, and I have been in elementary schools more recently. Um, but like one of the things that we're always talking about at an elementary school level is strengths-based. Like you're able to recognize that drawing is something she's able to do. If given a task of drawing, like, why can't we find ways to build that strength, to build that connection? Because it also seems like I mean she's talking about this teacher like she's a stranger. Like, yeah, I guess she's nice. And this is I'm gonna disagree with that sentiment over the next Michaela has strong feelings about this teacher.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Strong feelings. No, I do too, but Michaela's usually way more vocal about it than I am, and it's much funnier. I think, in anyways.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

So, but like, how awful of a thing. Like, you your your goal is for her new the teacher who's coming in when you're on maternity leave to be able to know her, and you know that she draws.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Why not have her incorporate a drawing?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, it's so much easier. Yeah, if you if you're not gonna write it, can you draw can you draw me a picture that tells him about who you are? Like I it's just why does it have to be a dig?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah, well, and especially it's like you know, I teach grades three through five, and like oftentimes it's I mean, granted, it's during like lessons where we um say, Oh, it like as long as it's not a distraction, you can doodle while you listen. Like, obviously, if you're too focused on the drawing and you're not listening, you have to stop it. But like it can be a tool now. Granted, it's for work, like or like it's work time, so you shouldn't be drawing. But you know that she refuses these. You said you're fighting her on this, you know that this is a battle every single time. Especially no, like she's leaving. This this teacher is going to be going on maternity.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

I can't remember if this is the next thing that happens, but like she talks about how, like, well, she usually just lets it slide, but she won't let this slide. And like that makes me more angry. By letting it slide, you're telling her that she's not capable, and you're just reinforcing this belief. Oh, yeah, it's a it's a little bit later. And but she also knows, like, hey, when I try my best, like you tell me it's too messy, it's bad, it's not good enough.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

I'm spell I'm spelling the same word different ways in the same on the same page, which we'll get to that in a sec. Before we get to her talking about her own spelling, there was another thing that stood out to me. Seven schools in seven years. This kid has moved so much, and that's so hard on kids.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Well, and we know, like, there's data to back the the fact that like every time you move districts, you lose six months of academic progress. So if you're already struggling, like that six months is more significant, right? So if you're moving every year, like beyond your summer slide, you're also losing six months, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Between that and knowing she like granted, we know she struggles. It sounds like none of the other schools know she struggles, which I mean, if she is purposefully acting out so she gets out of doing the work, it makes sense. And especially if she's been in seven different schools in years, it's hard to it can be hard to catch that. I've had several kids who came so low, like can't read, can't write, and like they only just qualified in like fourth grade because they kept moving around so much, and so even if schools did clock it, they couldn't get the data they needed to get the kid qualified to get the help they needed.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Well, and also like without if you don't get like the special ed, like sometimes like they might have clocked it, but like they you're not quite qualifying for special ed, but they like you don't necessarily get that info, get that info, so then you have to re-explore that. Um I mean parents can always share that information, but I think sometimes teachers figure out things but like don't necessarily communicate them to the parents because it doesn't feel necessary. I like having dyslexia is something that you just should absolutely communicate to parents. But if you realize, oh hey, this kid's a visual learner, and then you just start to implement more visual cues in your day-to-day classroom teaching, that's something that you'll tell the next grade level as you're like passing them along, but it might not be something that you think to tell the parents, they don't have that information to pass along to the next school. And I think it's probably part of that like six-month piece, yeah, most definitely.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, and then like lit almost like the the next sentence, whenever I do my best, they tell me I don't try hard enough. I'm like, that's such a hard thing to hear from teachers. Like, you're not trying hard enough. Like, I can't imagine how this, like, I mean, it's understandable how she has no self-esteem about like her abilities if all she's been hearing is you're not trying hard enough.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

And like, at no point in this writing do you ever see Miss Hall say something nice to her? No, or even shut down some of the behavior from the other kids before being unkind to her. She ignores it, she ignores it. Uh-huh. And what you ignore, you endorse. So that that hit that's awful for me. So she has all of that, but I do want to come back to that different spelling on the same page. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Uh spelling annoyed that the same word is spelled different ways on the same page.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

So I do that all the time. It's gotten better as an adult. And it's not because I figured out how to spell so much as like I have when I'm writing, I don't think about the individual letters anymore. I don't like if you were to ask me to spell a word, uh, I will get out my phone or a keyboard and I will type it and just tell you what I find. Like my hand doesn't, and so like there's not as much like brain. So if my fingers get confused, like I don't know that it's wrong, so I'm not gonna catch it. And then if my fingers do a different thing the next time, um, it's really my fingers that know how to spell, which is not how that's supposed to work. Um, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Well, that's muscle memory, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

And that's how I get through most of the time, but there's like still some words that like they they're not hard, they're not hard words, they're hard words that would make sense. One that gets me every time I cannot spell the same ever additionally. I cannot spell additionally. Like, if I really, really need to use that word and I like very, very much slow down and try and write it like I'm in second grade, I can get it, but it will take me five minutes to spell that word correctly. Yeah, so I avoid it at all costs.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Oh, understandably. But no, so so she's talking about how spelling is really hard and how she gets headaches from looking at the brightness of dark letters on white pages for too long was another one. Is that like, okay, immediately right here, two very good signs of dyslexia spelling the same or different ways. You can't, you're not hearing the sounds, which is what dyslexia is is that difficulty of that language barrier from the written language with the sounds they make because dyslexic brains don't have the right part of that, like the the part of the brain that helps with that is smaller than the typical brain, so they can't make that connection as easily, they have to kind of take a more circuitous route. I'm like, well, obviously, she's gonna have headaches, comes in there looking and thinking and really trying to like decode and encode.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Well, and so a fun fact about me is while I was diagnosed early with dyslexia, um no told me so I didn't find out until I was I had already graduated grad school, so I was like 25, 26. I think I was at my second school. So I think in my late 20s, when I found out um that everybody in the whole my whole family had known my whole life.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

So like I'm just like baffling to me is like it's I'm like understandable when you're young, but like once you reach like middle high school, like but they swear I know I knew they thought they told me.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Um that's when I asked, I was like, why didn't you? We did you knew. Well, how come how come I didn't know that I knew? Um so I just haven't gotten into that one. Um, but I think they never told me in middle and high school because they just thought I knew. So, and that's why I found my mom was very flippant when she told me. Um, because I was like, Yeah, it doesn't at like the administrative assistants are making fun of me because like I'm trying to like have them like laminate posters and they're like all you have you always have letters backwards or your words are spelled wrong. We have to like check it before we can laminate it. And I was like, Mom, they're making fun of me for like being dyslexic at work, and she's like, Well, you are, and that's how I found out. Um what a way to find out, right? So complaining about so they're like sometimes like so now I like you know dig more into it because dyslexia isn't just like letters being weird, right? There's so many different pieces of it um that I kind of just have been like exploring and finding out as an adult.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Um, it was very fun. I showed up at her place as she was finishing the end of the book and listening to the like her like random little exclamations and just like watching her like every now and again just stop and stare into nothing for the longest time. And we'll we'll talk about it when we get to that part because it's way at the end of the book. It was it was so amusing.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah. Well, I actually read this book. I don't usually read them, I usually listen to them, but I actually read this book. Um, so congratulations to me. Like white on black is something I've done since I started you reading. I didn't use an actual book, people. Um, I I read things on my phone, um, because I can do black on white, so I can have a black background with white text, um, which I've been doing for years. And I was just like, it's just darker, it's easier on your eyes. I thought it was just a person thing. Um, and then and then I found out it was a dyslexia thing. And I was like, that's so weird that that also works for me. Um, um, I've recently been exploring dyslexia fonts too. And at first I hated them, but that was that was because it was different. Um, but they're growing on me. Uh but yeah, it is it is wild every now and again, just like hearing a new thing, and they're like, oh, and like that's connected to the dyslexia. And I was like, what do you mean? What do you mean? Um the fact that I can't ever remember what something's called like in the moment, and just call it the thing and the thingy, um, is is the dyslexia and that because because uh immediate word retrieval hard for dyslexia. Um my my very my weirdly large vocabulary is the dyslexia. So like it is it is a wild place to be. And you'll get to join continue on this journey with me as there's more things in here that um I did look over to Candice and I went, wait, is that the dyslexia too? Um, and usually no, but we Sometimes yes, but sometimes yes, but yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

So back to the fish in the tree after she's talking about how she's getting headaches. Allie's kind of looking around and realizing that you know the class is getting tired of her again, and how she it's like maybe I don't think maybe they think she they can't hear, she can't hear their words freak, dumb, loser, which that's horrible things to hear. Especially since we know that Mrs.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Hall is not stopping these comments, and that's when you think about yourself when you just can't do things that are so easy for everybody else, right? And like not knowing, because the other thing is right, like she thinks that her experience is normal, that how she sees and reads and whatever is what everybody experiences, but they don't struggle with it, they just know, and this like inherent set of better skills that they somehow acquired while she sat in the dark, because that for me that's the crux of it all, right? I thought my experience was universal, I thought everybody saw things like I did, and then and and because everybody has the exper same experience I do, but they're like somehow better at everything, it's really confusing.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Yes, but yeah, so then we get to the comment on how she oh yeah, this teacher usually just lets it slide, but she's not because it's for the new teacher, so she can't have one missing. And then she starts to try to Ali starts to try to stall and distract and starts asking about oh, have you decided what you've gonna name the baby? Because they got her talking for 30 minutes about baby names a week ago, which is amusing to me because I'd like when I was pregnant and kids asked for my name, I was like, Oh, we haven't decided yet. Let me know if you have any ideas, and that was the end like write them down for me, I'll take a look at them. And I think one kid said like Rover or something like that. And I'm like, in my brain, my my brain immediately went, that's a dog's name.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

No when I say I was born, my parents didn't even know what we had decided. Uh Tess didn't know what we had decided because we had discussed it and decided, and then you changed it. No, we hadn't written it down, uh, for the if like I had it, I had it written down, but like I didn't show her what I had written down. Uh so we were sitting in the hospital room and they we said the name and they're like spell that for me, and we started to spell it, and we did not spell it the same way.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

When you were pregnant and we were talking about baby, you told me something different. It wasn't Isaiah when you talked to me.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

You did, so it did change at some point.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

It did, yes, it did, but that was way early.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Uh we were gonna name him Dorian.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

I feel like that wasn't the one I would heard either.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, we had decided on Dorian, and then I was at a prenatal yoga appointment. I was like, me and Dorian. I was like, no. So I went home and I was like, Tess, that's not it. And we had decided, but also like he came out and I was like, Does this does he look like that's his name? And Tess look at you know, a slimy alien was like, yeah, babe.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

So you know, you at least you had that. So I mean, we to Tyler and I were between two names. I liked one, he liked the other one. Because it was between Riley and Eli. I liked Eli. Tyler liked Riley. We ended up going with Riley, which is beside the point. Because I was gonna sit there and be like, oh, I want to wait to see him. Because like I feel like I'm gonna look at him and know what he's like, yeah, I'm gonna know which one is the right choice. I didn't get to look at him, you guys. I have a very traumatic birth story. I'm not gonna tell it to you. It's terrifying, but it's what nightmares are made of.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

I wasn't I yes, no, fully agree.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

But so I was unconscious basically when he was taken out of me. So I didn't get to see him for several hours until after he was born. And even then, I was still very, very doped up. So knew in my heart I made the right choice. So it didn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah, and he rocks his name.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Yes, he's very much O Riley. Yeah, when I was fully conscious and I looked at it and was like, Yes, Riley's the right choice. We did the right thing, we did the right thing. Yes, and that's our little side quests on baby names.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Because now that they're born, I'll side quest with you.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Oh yeah. Anyways, and so then we get into kind of this very unique thing that Allie does, is where she talks about her mind movies. Um, and they're very realistic little videos that go on in her head.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Well, I'll say this is like this is something I've heard a lot with like dyslexia. I've also parted a little bit with ADHD that like your mind visualization is really good. And damn am I jealous because like I think I can visualize in my mind okay, but I also have I can be sitting in a room and I have no depth perception. So like size and space and like those kind of things go beyond my capabilities. So like I create a decent visualization of my brain, but I'm making a mind movie because it space doesn't space.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah, and see, like I'll like daydream and play things in my head, and like what's interesting is how like we differently people think. Like, some people think in pictures and some people think in words, and I'm like, I'm pretty sure I do a combination of both, where like in my more mind when I daydream. It's a story. So, like there's the picture there, but my brain is also narrating in my head. Anyways, back to Allie's mind movies, which are very realistic and kind of get her away from the situation she's living in.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

But one thing I do like about this though is I feel like a lot of times in books when they do these like mind movies or these like imagination things, like the time doesn't but in this one it does. It does. Yeah. Like people can go, uh will bring her back, like uh, where'd you go?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Um, and what's interesting, so I think it took me a while to sit there and like take notice of her mind movies on how they change throughout the story. Because in this mind movie, she Mrs. Hall is dressed as a sheriff and she's and Allie is in black and white prisoner stripes. Because I it like took me, I think the second like bigger mind movie that she has is where I kind of clocked it, and I'll talk about that one as well. But like right now, she's in prisoner stripes later on. It's like not it's not an outward prison stripes, but they're still like in the mind movie, something is holding this person back from being who they really are.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

I think that's actually a really like significant theme throughout this book that I think is really interesting. Um, kind of holding through to that.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

And it just was really nice for me to sit there and go, like, oh, well, like here's how they're showing how Allie is changing throughout the stories through her mind movies, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Well, but after her mind movie, um, she is kind of jerked back.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Um, and she as she kind of just like readies herself to do something to do a naughty thing to get her out of doing this, so she picks up her pencil and just starts scribbling all over her desk, which obviously upsets Mrs. Hall. And as Allie tried to place it off, I was there when I got I was there when I got here. And you know, Mrs. Hall tries to like attempts, and it's not a great attempt.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

I disagree with you. She doesn't attempt, she goes, Hey, I see that you're upset, which is not actually attempting to do anything. Um, it it I think it was like attempting to connect. I disagree with I mean, I could see an interpretation of that, but it feels like um it's probably gonna be a butt. More than that, it feels like it was a no, I know you did it because you're upset. It felt accusatory.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Like, I mean, with how this teacher goes, it probably was. Yeah, that was me trying to be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

I'm not gonna give her any grace. Um, she doesn't earn it because she says, I can tell that you're upset, and then another kid calls her a freak.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yep, she says nothing, and then all because she folds her arms and just stares up at Mrs. Hall. Like, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Because somebody just called her a freak, so she, you know, has no reason to feel defensive or angry, upset, overwhelmed. And instead of having any try trying to like level with her, it was I see, I see that you're upset. Like, so and a straight up, she has done nothing yet that maybe not at all.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I don't, I have she scribbled all over the desk. That was what she did. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Other than try to avoid the work, and like that's not an office move. That's uh that's not how that's not how you treat my things. I'm gonna go get some cleaner and you're gonna clean that up. And while that would have slowed her down from the task like she was trying to get, she you have you there has to be accountability, and maybe it's that's not how we treat my things when you're done with this assignment, you're gonna have to clean that up, right? This is a classroom managed behavior. This is not an office managed behavior. Nope. And if somebody called me down to a classroom to intervene with a child because they scribbled on a desk, I would laugh and I would leave. Yep. Like there's things that are classroom managed behaviors that I I will take on because clearly, like, nobody's in a place to handle it. Then this one I would laugh and I would leave.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Uh-huh. No, stuff like this reminds me of my first job where we got called to support for a kid. And mind you, this my first job, the special ed were severely understaffed. There were six special ed staff. It was three teachers, three aides for a K through five school, and lots of big behavioral issues. Like several of those kids should have had like one-on-ones. But, anyways, a teacher calls for support. I go in there and it's like she's not doing the work. She wasn't being disruptive, nothing. She just was sitting there, not doing it. And I'm just sitting there, like, okay. And I just stood in the back and watched for a bit. And granted, and she eventually started doing it, but she wasn't being louder disruptive. So I just walked out because I'm like, I'm not gonna sit there and I have better things to do. I have more important things to do than sit with this kid who's not causing any disruption, is obviously like was clearly listening to, like, was watching, like, and doing she just wasn't writing it down. And eventually she did start writing it down, but she was just listening first.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Like, please stop. So then, you know, when she's like, Oh shoot, is this what I wanted? And everybody laughs at her, she then addresses the class, like, oh, anybody who makes a noise is going gives up their recess. But the thing is, now you've made the class clock quiet while you're disciplining this child. Yep, you've thrown a spotlight on a kid who's trying to run away. Yep, that's really gonna help.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

And so now she's trying now. Allie tries to backtrack. Is like, sorry, I'll do it, I promise. And she's like, Okay, but if that pencil stops moving, you're going to the office. Like, I'm sorry, you expect a kid to write an entire page about themselves, and you just expect her to keep writing without having to stop to think about some things, which I uh and then she sits down, and this is another thing that got me.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

That I just don't understand. She said she was holding the pencil the way she was supposed to, instead of the weird way that my hand wants to. Well, I didn't think the right way to hold a pencil. I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

I think from like an OT perspective, it may like the way that we typically like hold pencils is the most conductive to like ease of writing. But granted, she's in sixth grade now. Clearly, that's not working. Usually, by like third or fourth grade, at least the person like my OT is like, if they're handwriting and that like this stuff isn't fixed, it's whatever. There's no fixing it now. It's in it's ingrained.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

The other piece, right, that I think is really important to acknowledge with this student specifically, she's an artist, she's creative and she is capable of manipulating the pencil very intentionally and purposely to create the image that she wants to, meaning however she wants to hold the pencil is effective in intentional pencil marks. Why must she hold it a certain way? Right. Um, I always found this really frustrating, and I don't know, like this could be a plethora of things, right? I think there's probably some most of the studies on how to hold a pencil are for right-handed people. Nope. I am not. Nope. So I had a lot of people tell me how I should hold a pencil, and you know what that does when you hold a pencil the way you're supposed to hold a pencil when you're left-handed? You drag all of the what you're writing.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

It gets all over your hand. If it's in pen, it's gonna just slowly smear off, and your hand is then covered in.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

And then you're and then people are upset because your handwriting's bad because you smeared the ink everywhere. So, like, I can't rest my paper on hand on the paper like you're supposed to. Otherwise, it's not legible. Is it legible anyway? No. But at least I didn't make it worse by smearing it. Uh, but I also do think part of that is like I feel like they there's no real good conversations around how to hold a pencil or a pen when you're not right-handed. It is 2026, people. Like, I feel like there should be a better way to like teach people who are left-handed how to hold a pencil. I also feel like nobody ever helped. Like, maybe, maybe in those older years, like maybe when I got into like my element, like my first grade on, perhaps. But I know for sure that when I was in like kindergarten, my mom got a phone call home and they were like, Hey, her fine motor skills are bad. Like, we're watching her cut and it is terrible. And my mom went, interesting. Um, can you just quick question? Which hand is she holding that scissors in? And they were like, Well, her right hand, obviously. And she's like, Well, interesting. She's left-handed. Have you considered um telling her to hold it in her other hand? And they're like, Oh, we can't influence these things.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

It you've already chosen. Yeah, and that's like such a stark difference. So, Tyler, both Tyler and I are slightly ambidextrous. Where like for me, I write with my right, like my left hand, and I like use my fork with like my like I cut with like my left hand. I almost do almost everything else right-handed. I throw me too, like everything else I do right-handed. So, Tyler growing up, because we would we would talk about this, like would switch hands back and forth when he was young. Like he was very truly ambidextrous, and then his teachers made him pick a hand, like he was forced to choose just one to write with, which makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Why would you do that?

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Because being ambidextrous is so cool, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Because I the way I think about it is that things that you are taught very specifically to do, typically I do that with my right hand. But if it is something that you just do, I do it with my left hand. So, like if I were to go pick up a coffee pot to pour a cup of coffee, I'm grabbing that poppy coffee pot with my left hand.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yes, I had to think about it. And like I she just watched me just reach in the air as I'd visualize how I would pick up a pot.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

But if I throw a ball, I'm gonna do that with my right hand. Because the other thing is like you learn a lot of those things through mirroring. I I watch you do what I'm gonna do it. So those things that you were taught to do, a lot of times I do it with my right hand because I mop I mirrored what I was doing, what they were doing. Like I watched you do it, now I do it, but you're right-handed, so I did it the way you did it. Right. And I didn't do it with my left hand. And in some way, like some things that I I also started left-handed, I did end up right-handed, which was weird. Like I threw shot put and discus in high school. Right. And I threw shot put left-handed. Okay. I threw discus right-handed. I think it was because the coach, like when I did, I did it a little bit in middle school, and like the the middle school coaches didn't leave space for me to be left-handed. So I like learned initially how to throw a discus right-handed because that's how they taught it. Whereas when I got to high school and they actually start shot put, like they actually asked what my dominant hand was. They like they cared. But eventually, because I was terrible at shot put, they switched me from doing um just traditional shot put to rotational shot, which is this because I was really good at discus. But then we realized after they did that that I was doing rotational shot throwing with my left hand, and then rotational discus throwing with my right hand. So I was spinning in opposite directions. So we we for the end of my my shot putting time, we switched me from left to right so that I was aligned with what I was doing with the discus. Uh-huh. So I wasn't spinning in opposite directions. And I was doing much better with discus, so they didn't want to switch me to my left hand for discus. Right. Because I would think about whether or not you were using the same hand for both, because like right.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

So anyway. Anyways. I mean, granted, yeah, like we don't know what hand she writes with. She doesn't ever say, but I would be really interested to see, like, to see which hand she like which is her which one is her dominant hand. Yes. To see how she's writing it, like how the pencil, right? Like her pencil holding is funky. According to other people, yeah. Not that we care. Because pencil holding is such a minor thing. It's such a minor thing. Anyways, so she goes off to the reading table while the teacher cleans the desk, which is odd, because she scribbled on it. She should clean it. Yeah. Classroom managed behavior. Right. And so she's kind of like hiding the paper. And she's like, Allie's like, I know I have to keep the pencil moving. So she writes the word why over and over and over again from top to bottom for two main reasons. One, because she knows how to spell that word, and two, because she's hoping that someone will give her an answer. And that is crushing.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

To sit there and go your whole life wondering why this is so hard. No one's helping you. Everyone thinks you're just some terrible person. Why do they hate me so much? Terrible person, some dumb person. Like it's just heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

I just highlighted that line. I didn't have I didn't have commentary on that one because I was like, It's so sad. And it's so real. And I think I think a lot of the criticism I have for this teacher is because like I've had the teachers who don't see me, who don't see it, who don't get it. Right. And I couldn't have advocated for myself because I didn't understand. I didn't get it. There was one teacher that I like I had a really good relationship with, and I was like, no, I I can't do it. Like I only know how to spell phonetically. And she was she was my Spanish teacher, and she was like, Well, you're unlocked sweet P. Spanish. In this class, we we spell phonetically. Um and I couldn't better advocate for myself because that was the only thing that people had communicated to me. Your issue with spelling is you spell phonetically, right? Which I think is really interesting because I think for a long time that meant that I really got phonics. Like people taught me phonics. And then I was I've I've been sitting in some some elementary school classrooms and they teach phonics, like they actually teach phonics. And phonics isn't about understanding the sounds so much. Nope. It's about understanding the rules. And I sort of ignored the rules um because they were all dumb, but mostly because my the rules I got were I before e except after C, except, accept, accept, accept. Right. And like I was like, you just gave me nine exceptions, and I I'm that's not helpful for me.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

No, and the English language itself is uh is really bad for people with dyslexia because it's such a obscure, like not obscure, I forget the official word for it. I'd have to look it up. But there are very phonetic languages which are very easy to learn because everything is phonetic, like Spanish. English is the opposite of that.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

And I think it's because it's it's a it's a conglomeration of all like it's we it's English kind of just like went on a shopping spree at an international store and and came home with random with random trinkets, and that's how we came up with words, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:24

And like luckily, most of the English language does follow a set thing of rules. So like the I before e except after C thing, the reason there are exceptions are usually because of the root words. Where like so a lot of like like the phonics program that my district uses right now, they might change it, goes over the root words, which then dictates how things are spelt, which is why we sometimes use ph because that's from Greek and things, things like that. So if you know the different word parts and you know how those are spelled, you're gonna be able to sit there and put words together and far apart more easily, which makes a lot of sense, and maybe that would have been cool to get as a person. Yes, I know it was interesting as we uh like we're going through that, and they're talking about when you use G E and D G E as the ending. Okay, there are very there, it's a very specific rule. G E is for long vowels, age. Um, whereas D G E is short vowels, or if there's a letter between the vowel and the D GE. I think I need to go back to kindergarten. That's that's a more of advanced, but it was like a thing where where yeah, no, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

I was like, I don't remember the difference between a long and a short vowel.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Long says its name.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

See, kindergarten.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Um, but where it's things like that, where it's like, you know what? Yes, now that I think about it, that is that that is the pattern. It's crazy, right? Anyways, that's the end of chapter one.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

It is, and we spent about 45 minutes discussing five pages, five pages because we're super wonderful. Um, so we are gonna just do chapter one today, um, and we're gonna catch you guys next week with chapter two. Um chapter three, depending on how long we talk. For sure. I do have a conversation for the first line. So we'll see if we can get to chapter three next week. Um, and we'll catch you guys over there.