Emotional Intelligence is a Super Power | Eric Pennington

Eric Pennington, managing partner of Spirit of EQ, author, speaker and coach joins the Hunting Bravery podcast to discuss the powerful connection between emotional intelligence and courage. In this episode, Pennington explains how emotions influence decision-making, why true EQ requires thoughtful response rather than reaction, and how bravery must be intentionally exercised like a muscle. Drawing from his own journey through corporate America, entrepreneurship and personal setbacks, he shares practical insights on building resilience, rewriting fear-based thinking and choosing courage to create a more authentic and fulfilling life.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Quick question: What would you do if fear wasn't allowed to vote? Today, we're gonna find out. Bravery isn't the absence of fear, it's the decision to move anyway. Welcome to Hunting Bravery. I'm Amy Sewee, and this show is about the moments that change us, the quiet decisions, the uncomfortable truths, and the courage it takes to step into a life that actually feels like yours. Here, we talk to people who've taken the leap, sometimes boldly, sometimes trembling, but always honestly. Because bravery doesn't always look heroic. Sometimes it looks like saying yes. Sometimes it looks like walking away. Today, we're hunting a different kind of predator. The thoughts, fears, and beliefs that keep us smoking. Today's guest is Eric Pennington, managing partner of Spirit of EQ, and a leader who has spent his career helping people navigate the inner work that real bravery requires. At Spirit of EQ, Eric sets the strategic direction for the firm while personally guiding every new client relationship from the first conversation through onboarding, because he believes transformation starts with trust, presence, and honest dialogue. With more than 20 years of entrepreneurial and leadership experience across startups and Fortune 500 environments, he brings a rare blend of real-world pressure and deep emotional intelligence to his work. Eric is also the author of The Wellbeing Guide: Making the Most of Life and Work, a practical and deeply personal roadmap to fulfillment that challenges readers to examine what truly matters and take meaningful action. The book builds on ideas first introduced in Waking Up in Corporate America, inviting reflection not just on how we work, but how we live. In this conversation, we explore how courage shows up in leadership, why emotional intelligence is essential when facing change, and what it means to choose awareness, alignment, and well-being in a world that often rewards the opposite. We're excited to welcome Eric Pennington to Hunting Bravery. Eric, I'm so happy that you're here with me today.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Wow, I've I'm super happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Good, good. We've got a lot to talk about. Emotional intelligence is something that you're an expert on, and I am definitely not. And I've always been interested in it. And how just all of it. So why don't you start by explaining to me and our viewers exactly what emotional intelligence is and what it means?

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Sure. Well, one of the easiest ways to understand it, um, it is a process that's happening inside of your brain, right? Okay, and if you think about it, every single one of us, you your viewers, uh, the studio, you're encountering various types of events every day. Some of them are good, some are bad, happy, sad, difficult, easy, right? Sure. Each one of those are going to be a catalyst to a thought.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

And then typically what follows is an emotion. Yep. And then there's a choice. The people that make a choice immediately, which you might say people who react, those are the people that typically have a lot of challenges.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

All right.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

So not so emotionally intelligent.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

And typically it does correlate. The level of their emotional intelligence is probably going to be much lower than the other person who responds. And typically the responder is someone who gives it a little bit of time before the words come out of their mouth.

SPEAKER_04 3:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

So you can kind of picture it. Every single day, there's an event or events, plural, right? There's a thought followed by an emotion. And then it's either a reaction or it's a response. Again, reactors are typically those who have lower emotional intelligence. Responders are typically those with higher, right? And one thing I want to say is to be very careful, right? It's not that the reactors are bad people, not smart, any of that kind of thing. It's just they don't know they have tools because emotional intelligence is a learnable skill. So they don't know what to do. I mean, look around. I mean, social media is full of people who react.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

And again, I don't even I look at them with empathy because more than likely they don't know that, you know, if you give it about five or six seconds, you might find your prefrontal part of your brain will kick in. That's where we make our decisions, right? And maybe you'll say, you know what, before I post this, that's a little much. Or, you know what, before I scream at my teenage, right? I'm gonna, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna think it through. Most of the time, that's gonna result in the optimal situation.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Right. No, absolutely. Okay, so it's it's those people that are just I mean, and I feel like it people take things too, I don't want to say too seriously, but um, you know, there's I I guess I'd explain as sensitive. They're very sensitive about things. I mean, how how is the emotional intelligence level of somebody who it takes every single thing to a totally different level?

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Well, in in in many respects, it could be that the if from a scoring standpoint, and and for the work that we do in inside of my company, we we always measure that before we engage, right? Because they need to understand, okay, where am I at at a at a current level? I I almost attribute it to the same reason when you go in for the annual wellness check with your doctor, they're gonna check your blood pressure. They're probably gonna order blood work. It's just the where are you at, right? So once they start to understand that it's okay to be sensitive. It's okay to, I mean, it's not a judgment game. It's just about, well, if you don't like the outcomes from the decisions you're making, what do you want to do to get better? How do you want to improve that? Fortunately, there are tools. It'd be different if we were talking about, well, certain people will, but there are certain people that never will. It's not that case at all.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Sure. Okay. Okay. How do you test for assessments? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Um, we use a very validated, reliable test that um will measure where someone is at. Um, and when I say things like valid, reliable, that's really important because um, though it's not a perfect science, it's not absolute, because we're dealing with human beings and we're dealing with emotions, which is very dynamic in nature, right? We want to get as close as we can to understanding, okay, where are you at? Right. And what I like about it is that as long as the person is not thinking that it's a test of like, hey, pass, fail, okay, that kind of thing, they can begin to kind of embrace it as a okay, curiosity. I see where I'm at. That makes sense to me. And that's the part that makes the difference.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

I was gonna say, are the emotional intelligent people more the people like, okay, that makes sense? And then when it's not like, what? That's not true.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Uh well, actually, you know, my experience is that both sides will say most situations are going, yeah, yeah, I can see that.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Okay. Yeah. Because, for example, the the assessment that we use, the primary one, is I mean, there's been close to a half a million of them done across the globe.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Oh, wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

So you got a diverse pool of people and you got a high number. So again, it increases the validity and the reliability of the report. It is not, again, it is not perfect by any stretch. It's not absolute. But I think that gives people a sense of, okay, this I can I can go here. I mean, and then I can I can see where my pathway goes. Um and I think that's the encouraging part because it gives them something to begin to work on, right? Um, and I will tell you, with the diverse audience that I have worked with over close to 10 years now, it it works. I mean, it works.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Wow. So, so when they are assessed, and what what what are the steps to get them to a higher level? Yeah, how does that work?

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah. Well, it first begins with an understanding that it's going to be work.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

And if I if you were to ask me, okay, tell me who are the people who succeed at improving and who are the people that don't? The common denominator is their willingness to put the work in. Now, the work can be, it could be journaling, it could be just general practice, experiments. We have something called the pause, and it's a variation on what many people have heard before in other sectors. But basically, for us, uh, and a bit of it's based on science too, right? So science basically has stated that when an emotion comes your way, right? When your brain releases that anger, frustration, joy, fill in the blank. Your brain will release all of these different types of chemicals, hormones, and peptides. And think about it, right? Think about when you've really been angry. You can feel it happening.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Right? You might not be able to say, oh, that's that hormone.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

No, you're right. You can't.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

But but you can feel it, right? So it would make sense that you don't make a decision while that flood is going through your brain. And I truly, if it's rage versus annoyance, well, the intensity is going to be different. Of course. No doubt, right? But even still, do you really want to be making that critical decision when all that stuff's happening? No. But science has shown in about five to six seconds, Amy, it does this.

unknown 9:52

It does.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

That's all it takes. Five to six seconds.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

Just about. Now, to be sure, as you build your practice of EQ and personalities and all those things that come into play, it might end up taking you four seconds. Me, it might be seven seconds, but science has basically a savage about six seconds.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Wow. Now I have been in situations, and this probably is not good too, but when I'm upset about something, I know I don't need to be, but I kind of want to keep being mad. You know, of course, I I know rationally, like, okay, chill out. But I'm like, it kind of feels good to still be mad at this.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

I I'm so glad you said it that way, because there are so many people that think there are good emotions and bad emotions. Okay. Things I should feel, things you don't want to feel. Okay. We are at it, we take the take that every emotion is valid. So if you're angry, be angry. And if you think about it, Amy, when did you get in trouble with your anger? It was typically with the choice that you made following.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Right? The person that reacts, the person who responds, you need to understand, I'm really not happy right now. That's a whole different type of an approach. So it's not about saying anger is wrong or anger is bad or sadness is good and all of that. It's about let that emotion have the mic. Let it speak to you. Be okay with it. You're the one in charge, you're the CEO. And I know it's easy for me to just rattle all this off as if or just do it tomorrow, right? But my my point is that this is the work. If if you put in the work to build this practice, this learnable skill, you will get to a place where you're gonna feel some emotions that are really, really challenging, but you're not gonna be sort of flat-footed by them. Right. Okay. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah, yeah, it does. It 100% does. So who comes to you? Like they've got to be in a place that they recognize that they need some work, you know, and a lot of the people that need work don't recognize it.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Well, um, there's a the it's a two-sided coin. The good news is that they're coming to us, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:15

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

We which is a great thing. The bad news is sometimes how they come to us is not rooted in, say, the more noble approach, which is, hey, I've been having challenges with my kids and I'm butting heads with them, and I need to, I need to figure out a better way. Okay, you'd say, Man, that's a real healthy approach. Somebody's mature, that's a wise thing to do. But oftentimes it's an employer. Hey, okay, we can't uh we can't seem to get so-and-so to not be so, you know, X. Or you may have some senior level executive that thinks that his people need some help. So hey, so uh we'll put him in your program.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:59

I'm sorry, I've got a tea time, I've got to go.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Right?

SPEAKER_03 13:02

It's those kind of things.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Uh, and then there's some people who are just genuinely curious, and they they they do have that element of I I wonder if I could maybe get better at how I communicate. And that and that's healthy too.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

But um the the vast majority are in the those latter categories than someone who's just, hey, I'm I'm continually trying to get better at in my life and how I manage, you know, the this thing called life that I want to get help.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Right. So with the people that have to go because their employers are making them go, what is their success rate? I mean, once they get in there, are they kind of like, oh, I see the light, or are they still kind of fighting it?

SPEAKER_03 13:49

Well, it's a blend, right? And and thankfully, this is the this is the super positive part about being in this work as long as I have. I typically experience a lack of trust. They're they're gonna meet with me, and I expect that they're not gonna trust me. And I know that may sound well, this that's kind of pessimistic, isn't it? No, because they have a right to, and I want to meet them where they're at. So if you don't trust me, okay, we're gonna start slow and I'll show you. I'm not gonna, I'm not here to harm you. I'm not gonna try to change you, right? Yeah, okay. And then once I win the trust, then we can move to, okay, this makes sense because we're not talking about some new idea that we came up with 10 years ago and it's trademarked and we've got five volumes of whatever, and it's exclusively ours. This is just how your brain works.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

That's what it is. It's just really basic neuroscience when you think about it, right? And that's what we're trying to get people to tap into. Unfortunately, in the United States, we're not very scientifically literate, nor do we really have a great deal of interest in it. Okay. So even if you got some less, some education in school that touched on how the brain works and the neuroscience, it probably wasn't a ton outside of if you were in some kind of medical sphere.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah, no, you're right. You're absolutely right. You know, some of those things would be much more helpful to learn in school, like, you know, how to budget, how to deal with emotions, like all of these things. I mean, I don't even remember algebra anymore.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

So you know, it's it's interesting to me. And as long as I've been on the road, this thing called life, right? And I've told my kids this is that when was the last time you had any in any type of educational setting? Someone say, Okay, now you're gonna spend some time learning about how your brain works and emotional intelligence or emotional regulation or whatever the term might be. Nothing. Well, I said, Hey, you're in good company, because I didn't either. So we go into life based on some, you know, I heard this once from uh her name is Lisa Feldman Barrett. She's uh just brilliant um professor at Northeastern University. And she said that ultimately the brain is making a series of best guesses every day. And I remember when I first heard that, I'm going, best guesses? Wait a minute, but the brain is this operating system. It's you know, it's all magnificent. No, it's because if I don't intentionally work on how I think, right? My patterns and what I choose and what I don't choose, all of that, your brain is just going to index what it's already been seen or what it's already been given over time. And oftentimes when we were kids, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

You know, what we observed in our parents, what we observed in teachers, and we just boom, boom, boom. And I always use this example, Amy. No one came to me when I turned 18 and said, Hey, before you go off into the adult world, let's check those core beliefs and how you think. Nope, you know what I did? I just took what I learned when I was watching my dad doing X, Y, and Z. I took what I learned from what did I have, what did I have to do to survive in this family or this neighborhood environment, right? And what's ironic is that if I were to have examined them, I probably would have found a good number of them were like, this really doesn't apply. This doesn't apply to my adult world. I don't need to think about things this way.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Right? I mean, it goes deep, and I have to be careful in that regard. But that's the hope of this. You know, it'd be different again if I said to you, well, only certain people with an IQ of X, Y, and Z. No, no, it's it's a learnable skill.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah. Wow. So how does how you know this is the hunting bravery podcast, right? Yeah. So now that we understand a little bit more about, you know, this emotional intelligence, and I how does bravery show up in either what you do or for people working on this? How do you interpret that? Just whatever.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Sure. Um bravery in my mind is like a muscle.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

And if you use it and you build it, it gets bigger, you get stronger. If you don't, we have this thing called atrophy.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

It recedes, right? And when you think about all those life events, like I used the example in the beginning, the same kind of apply. So when I encounter the event, will I be brave or will I like cave, if I can use it my term, right? And I for me have found that it's a constant, it's a daily thing, because I'm I'm faced with decisions that are going to require that. Okay. Wonderful example for me, right? So part of that childhood sort of talk track, if you will, for me was I had serious trauma in around the 13 to 14 year old. It was like a two-year period where it was like one after another, really big stuff. And it did plant a seed in me that, oh, you better be careful, you know, because this happened last June. It's probably gonna something's gonna happen, right? And then I build this neural pathway that says, every June, better watch out, better watch the calendar. And it got to a place, Amy, where if I got to July and nothing bad happened, man, dodge that. I won't have to deal with that until next year.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

Okay, but think of what's happening. I'm instructing my brain in all of its plasticity that beware, beware, right? And again, no one came to me when I was an adult and said, Hey, is that really applicable? For sure. Is that really yeah? Nope. I just carried it with me. So it followed me. It followed me. So uh not so long ago, when I finally could sort of pull that subconscious stuff up to the surface, I could go, I can't keep thinking that something bad is around the corner. Because at the end of the day, life is full of good things, bad things, happy things, sad things. If you live long enough, you can see that pattern. Sure. So instead, why don't I go, yes, something bad could happen, but you know, something awesome could happen. And I have trained and I've built this new neural pathway that says, you know what? Bad things do happen, but really great things happen. They really do. I'm gonna expect that there could be a chance that's gonna be really great. To me, that's bravery.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Right? Because I could have just kept going what I had before, because it it was at the beginning, it was like this going into the ring with Mike Tyson type of situation, you know. But the beauty of it, and this is where people really why I I always don't give up, don't give up. They get in the ring, and there's Mike Tyson. And you now you got fear going, and now I know who this guy is, and I know what he does, and I know it. I'm not that guy. I'm just staying in the ring because when that bell rings and Mike Tyson comes at you, yeah, he's gonna hit you. But guess what? You're not gonna fall out. You're not it's not gonna knock you out, and then you're gonna find, yeah, this is a fight, but I I can kind of handle myself, which that's I think bravery waits for that call. I guess if I can say it that way.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Absolutely. Wow, that's a great way to put that.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

And yeah, I'm thinking about Mike Tyson, but then I'm like, yeah, it's kind of old and fat now, so I might have a just yeah, let me let me find someone else, uh someone from UFC or something, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

I get that. So How did you, I mean, something that's so ingrained in you for so long and making that conscious effort, I mean, that must take a lot of work and time to be able to overcome that and to still not, I mean, now, you know, you you still have June, you've got to still be thinking it because you've thought it for so long.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Yeah, but you know what the beauty is though, when I mentioned that it bravery is like a muscle. The stronger that muscle, the bigger that muscle, the more you're able to handle, the more weight you're able to lift. So many people, and and you know, when I talk about it being a learnable skill, emotional intelligence, and about putting in the work, so many people think that that's just an antidote to get to a certain place. But what it is, it's really building resources. Yeah, it's it's really like building resources that you can call upon when you need them.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

And I really firmly believe that in those times when I wasn't thinking necessarily about what's the next bad thing that's gonna happen, but I was putting in work to build this, in this case, the bravery muscle, right? Yep. Because we all have to remember something's coming at some point, in some fashion. Because again, if you live long enough, you've got enough of a pattern that shows you that is how life works. It's absolutely for every person. This is not for special people or not, it's it's for everyone. Equal opportunity, right? So if that's the case, you and I, your audience, should be working now, build resources, build resources. So when the inevitable comes, oh my gosh, I have resources, and you don't have to like it. Give your emotions the mic, let your emotions go. I don't like it. It's frustrating, it's disappointing. But keep going, keep addressing, keep fighting because you have the power. If you don't have the resources, I'm not saying the foreboden, forget it, you're you're you're done, but it's a much tougher battle. And I probably would say it would take that much longer to build a new neural pathway that's different.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yep, that makes sense. So, for before we jump into the next thing, I want for people listening to this, um, you know, what and you said, you know, it takes a lot of work. What would you suggest? What is a tip or something that you could say, hey, try this, do this. I know I'm asking something that's crazy and very loaded, but I'm sure that you can break that all down and be like, okay, well, this is all I'm gonna tell you, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

I'll do my best.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

But just, you know, you mentioned journaling earlier. Um, you know, just something that, you know, a little takeaway from this.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

You know, um, because obviously we're on a podcast and it's a window of time, and I can't give them all of it, right? I would say start with maybe writing down, I am enough. I'm not, I'm I'm not deficient. Because one of the things that I can trace in my interactions and the work that we do, people will come to the table thinking, I'm not enough. So if we can if we can just begin with, yes, you are enough. Yes, I know you screwed up 10 years ago. Yes, I know you said something you shouldn't have said last week. Yes, I know, because guess what? I've done the same. Every single person you meet. And really, when you think about what a relief it is to know, the people who are really authentic are the ones that go, oh yeah, I I'm I'm making mistakes all the time. I'm I'm saying things I shouldn't say because I'm a human being. So when you meet that person that um tries to pretend, right, that I'm I'm all good, I don't do that, I don't do this, yes, you do. You just aren't willing to admit it. Right, right. Right. So if we can start at a base level and go, all right, regardless of what I've done or haven't done, I am enough. I think that's a great place to start. Then you can build off of that. I mean, I can recommend podcasts, I can say, hey, here's assessments or here's a book or whatever. But in a very short window of time, I think if somebody can get that one under. And and one other thing I would say within this is about progress, right? You just need small steps of progress. So a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow. Um, and you I don't know if you've heard, Amy, of um this guy's name is Bill Ackman.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

He's a hedge fund manager. Okay. Brilliant piece of wisdom. Progress is like money, it compounds over time.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

So if I can go tomorrow and go, okay, yesterday I wrote that I am enough. I'm gonna write that again, but I'm gonna say, I am enough and I'm worth it. Okay, so there's two steps of progress in two days. Tomorrow, maybe it's I'm going to buy that book. And then the next day, I'm gonna listen to that podcast. Think of the cumulative.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

They went from okay, and that's something I think is a very approachable way of doing.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

That is, and I think just saying that out loud, not even write, I can write anything, but if I say like I am enough, I feel like some people that takes courage and it it's a brave step for people to say that out loud.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Because it can be very hard, I think.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

And when you think about it, without the action taken previously that refutes some of those old neuropathways that say you are not enough, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Yes. I mean, that's the thing. You saying it out loud, the affirmations, you know, it it's that's a big deal. That is that is golden. Thank you for that. You're welcome. Really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Okay, let's let's move into the next. So you um wrote a book called Waking Up in Corporate America. And I think this is just so cool that you know you were able to say, Hey, what are we doing? And you know, they are probably not gonna know what I'm talking about. So tell us a little bit about that and about your experience with that.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

Sure. Um, I think, you know, I I was that I don't know how I describe it. I was that person that bought the programming that said, if you make this much money, if you have this size of an office, if you can buy these kind of clothes and you have this kind of title and you just keep boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, then you're you're you've arrived. You've you've got and nothing you nothing's gonna hit you because you look how great you are, right? And I bought that. Yep. And it's almost kind of akin to the be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. And I did. I got it. I got everything that I checked all those boxes.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

So you should have the perfect life, right? I mean, check all the boxes, and there we go.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

That's all. And and and to be sure and fair to corporate America, I added to the story in my head. I I told Eric, this is gonna be, this is gonna be, just wait, just wait, and then I'm going, and then I'm going, right? And I kind of liken it to, and then Eric caught up to me.

SPEAKER_04 29:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

And then Eric said, Really, this is this is where you where you want to be. And I was at an age where I no longer could do the old, I'm only 30. I mean, there's like no big deal. I can always do something. I'm always thinking you have time, right? And I realized I couldn't do that anymore. So boom, look down, Eric. That's the Rubicon, that's the crossroads.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

And at that point, I was faced with okay, so what are you gonna do? Now, simultaneously, I had started to it because I was in a leadership role, I had a number of people that I was responsible for, and I I found that it seemed like those people were always used as more like means to an end. I'll say great things about you as long as you get me that report by fill in the blank, and as long as you help me hit the quarterly number, whatever, right? And it kind of broke my heart, but I wasn't, I didn't have emotional intelligence, right? I didn't have those tools, I didn't quite get that concept. So I'm just I'm sort of operating uh on a multiple things going on in my brain about where I was going. So when you combine that, it put me in a position where I go, um, something's something's just this is something's not right with this. Because how is it that I bought the idea that it was sold to me, that this was going to be the pinnacle, and I find myself on board. I I'm like, I don't want to be this person. How is it that this thing also really kind of uses people as just like on a board? Something's not right here. Idea comes to me about writing. Now, that's a crazy thought in and of itself, and I call it it was a God moment. It was it was god I don't I'm thinking about the movies with um, I can't remember the name of the movie, Bruce Almighty or whatever. Morgan Freeman, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

I hear Morgan Freeman's voice in my head going, Eric, Eric, you know, that kind of thing. And of course, I did the well, no, you're not you're not talking to me. I'm because I am not a writer. I, you know, that was not my forte in school type thing, but it wouldn't leave me alone. And then, because again, those multiple tracks in my head, I forged forward. And I thought at the time, Amy, it was gonna be okay, here's the next thing. I'm gonna be an author, and then I'm gonna go start this consulting thing and I'm gonna teach leadership. And I had it all in my head. It was right, it was grand, right? But and to answer your your question, that that was kind of the basis of what was the catalyst for for writing the book.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Or starting in the process of writing it.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Okay, so that's how interesting. Yeah. I remember um before I was a Python hunter and before I was a real estate broker, I was an ops manager at a financial place. And I started as a sales rep and I kind of worked my way up.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

And you know, that's you know, what you want to do is, you know, climb the ladder. Of course. I literally climbed the ladder. Yeah. But, you know, and so I remember it would be Saturday, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to go to work on Monday. Like there is something very wrong with this. Like that is not okay. I should be super excited. I mean, maybe maybe not super, but you know what? Yeah, super excited to go to work. You know, I am now.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

Right. Exactly. It's it's that that's true.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

I'm dying right now that I'm not in the swamp, you know, jumping on Python.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

I mean, that's just, you know, I understood.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Anyway, everybody has their flavor.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Everybody has their flavor. Yeah. But I think that's how it is for so many people. And and that's kind of where all of this came in.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

Well, and I and I wanted the book to be not a just a total indictment of corporate America, like they suck, they're bad, terrible, get out. I I wanted to reflect on what happened with me, what I kind of, oh my gosh, this is what is, this is what's wrong, this is how I think it could be made better. I I tried to uh inject that optimism. And for those that would read it, that maybe it would inspire them. Um, and to whatever level that that happened, you know, that that was that was my motivation. Um, and you know, at the end of the day, book or no book, uh, it was a catalyst for me personally, too. You know.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Right. So so you said that, you know, you have this grand plan in your head. So, so how did that go?

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Terrible. I failed miserably. I had the idea, and this was, I'm sure, some of that skin that I had in my corporate life where I thought I was the guy, if I can say it that way. And corporate life, corporate work did not teach me anything about how to be an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

For sure not. They teach you the opposite.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Uh yeah. But here's but here's what I thought. Well, look how much money I've made. Look what kind of this, look what I did, look at my achievements, look what people think of me. And then I thought, well, I'll just walk across the street and do the same thing. No big deal.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Just a nice, yeah, just merge on over into the lane and just away you go.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

Oh no, no, no, no. Because I I think probably one of the bigger wake-up calls was when I I I bought a marketing program that went, I was they took advantage of me. They just, you know, I I thought it was about, yeah, this, this, this. And then I'd already paid them. And then it was like, uh, well, sorry, you know, um, we don't guarantee that. And then I had nowhere else to go but the mirror to determine who made that mistake. You know, in the corporate world, yeah, well, yeah, that's not good that you made that decision. But you know, we'll be all right. We'll just, you know, the counting and we'll just keep moving and don't do that again. You can't do that as an entrepreneur. You gotta swallow it. And you gotta, and again, uh my last name wasn't Musk, so it wasn't like I had some unbelievable stash of cash to burn through. Uh, and I had um just moved into a new home six months in, if you will, give or take. I had a wife that was staying home with a six-year-old and a four-year-old.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Okay. And I had been the sole provider, if you will. And I had to explain to her that what I thought was gonna work isn't working. And my situation got even more interesting because I did come to a place where it's like, hey, I I'm I can't just jump into entrepreneurism. I'm gonna have to, I think I need to get a corporate gig again. Maybe I can make this a side hustle for a while, keep building it, blah, blah, blah. Nobody wanted to talk to me.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Really?

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Nobody. I mean, it it was it was so intense that my wife had begun to wonder whether or not there were people trying to sabotage me.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah, because it made no sense, right? Because it it wasn't that I didn't know how to interview, it wasn't that I didn't have a track record. I had everything, but just everything just wouldn't work. No return calls, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

So, what happened? What did you do?

SPEAKER_03 37:15

Remember that bravery muscle?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yep, I sure do. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

Um, I that's that's when it mattered.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Because I I had to figure out how am I gonna make this work, and it was not uh, it was not clean and it was not linear. I mean, I had my fits and stops and fits and stops, and you know, try this. Okay, no, I gotta go get a corporate gig again, and then I gotta come back and I'm gonna try this. But all along the way, I could hear this still voice. I say it was God. Keep going. Keep going. And you know, I love the name of your podcast, because in essence, that's that's to me, that's where bravery hits.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

Will you keep going? Will you keep showing up? And I did. And I'm not here to say, well, now I'm the this, this, and this, and I have that. No, no, no, no, no. Because it's it's a lifelong thing. Period. Full stop. Full stop wow. And I found that I I I mean, that's the thing. Um, and it gets lost um in some of our desire to embrace the outcomes of things. Bravey is never never more important than when it's 2 a.m. in the morning and you're thinking, I'm gonna have to call the attorney about bankruptcy. I'm gonna have to, because I got no other options here. That's when it matters. And it happens when the lights are not on and there's no interview happening, and there's no book, and there's no, well, look at him, look at him, look what he's no, it happens in the dark, in the earliest of mornings. And when you're going, what have I gotten into? How can I keep going? That's where it's real.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

It is, it is. That's so right on point because if you don't have that, what do you have?

SPEAKER_03 39:19

I mean, it is, it's yourself, and it's yourself saying well, you know, in some ways, you know, the saying uh you've probably heard it before about betting on yourself, you know. Uh, and and I know that can be very broad depending on how you look at it. But for me, um that crossroads that I experienced in corporate America, uh, I I kind of liken it to the Rubicon because I like the story, you know, Julius Caesar, and then the crossing and knowing that if I cross, there's no going back, right?

SPEAKER_04 39:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

And I'm not saying that heroically, I'm saying that to say I was at an age where, and I could have easily just stayed where I was at. I knew how to play politics, I knew how to maneuver in that world. But my great fear was I was gonna be one of those people that would get to like 59, 60 years old and be thinking about how I can survive until 65.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

How can I just get there? Mistakenly believing that somehow then everything would be good. Then I could be the person that I should be, then I can do I mean just the math says at 65, life expectancy average for a male, 78. You want to play that game? Right. Not to mention what's been burnt while you were climbing. And I did not want that. And that was even in the face of not having good clear direction and answers to this new entrepreneur thing. I just didn't want to become that person. And trust me, there are a number of people in my life, close and further out, who thought I was absolutely insane. Go back, just go back. It's just a job. It's just uh and I couldn't.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Yeah, I was gonna say you you couldn't anyways.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

I couldn't.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Yeah. But how happy are you that you did?

SPEAKER_03 41:24

Oh, it made all the difference.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Yeah, and it's a different life.

SPEAKER_03 41:28

Oh, it's totally right. Uh the person that I've become, I would have never been able to become in that environment. I and if I and if I could even say I would even get close to it, I would have had to have kept it a secret. I would have had it to be that little inner world where I could play this little game of pretend, right? Well, it's not so bad. You know, I read that book. Um, I'm leading people here. All of these compromises, and I'm speaking this for me, right? And as I mentioned with the book, it was not designed to be an indictment on corporate America. I got issues with them. I can I can point them out and I can I can get a list, but at the end of the day, at least last time I checked, you and I, your audience, you you do have a choice about what you want to do and what you want to be with your life. It it is still a choice. So, from that dynamic, it this life that I have now would have not come about without even with all of the ups and downs and trips and falls and 2 a.m. conversations.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Right. You you just get better, you just get better and more confident in yourself and you trust yourself, and you say, Hey, I got this.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Yeah. And you know the other thing? We don't live in a culture that um lifts up that. You're right, right?

SPEAKER_04 42:54

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

Uh if you make tons of money and you have a lot of celebrity, they'll say, Oh, that's so inspiring. But I'm talking about, how about Susan, who right now is in Los Angeles working in a startup that everyone has said you're gonna lose everything. And maybe she does, but then has to think I gotta, I gotta keep at this. People typically they're not interested in that. They will be when she makes Mr.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

But it's almost like they want her to fail because they're too afraid to do whatever she did or whatever you did, or whatever I have element.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Yeah, there is that element.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Because that can make people uncomfortable. Very much so. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because who do who do you think you are?

SPEAKER_04 43:41

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

Right. And the and the reality is is that uh I think I'm me. I'm just trying to be me, you know. I I have always alluded to it is my life is this story, you know. I kind of have this imagination that one day in heaven, God's gonna go. This is the book of Eric. It started here and it went like this, and then this twist and turn, just like a great movie, you know, where what's gonna happen next? Is he gonna be able to, right? I wanna lean into that. I don't want to lean into, well, I I guess I better get my 401k. Yeah. Better, probably the suburbs, better schools, yeah, house retirement. Yeah, I am getting older. I mean, that's not living from my perspective.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Right, right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

And don't you either don't you find it interesting that if we from a movie perspective, what movie would you go to where everything was just great?

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Oh done. How boring is that?

SPEAKER_03 44:41

We love the adventure, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah, we love what's we want it to almost, they're almost gonna fail. Right. They came back and oh, they went at the end. Okay, you know?

SPEAKER_03 44:51

That's what we did. Yeah, but isn't it interesting? Most people won't live like that.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

No, they won't at all.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

They they're absolutely that petrifies. Yeah, right. And and I'm again, because I'm a lover of people, it's okay if you're afraid. You can feel that for sure. But what do we do now? Now that you know, now that you know, you I'll come alongside of you. All right, but who I won't come alongside of is the person that tries to deny it. The person says, I don't need this. I don't know. I don't know. I'm okay. Your choice, man. Your choice, ladies.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

You're on your own. You're on your own.

SPEAKER_03 45:25

It's your thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yep. How interesting. Oh, what a fun conversation this was. This is so enlightening.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

Well, thank you. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

What else do you want to add to this before we we finish up here?

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Um, I I'm gonna go back to what you asked me about um what's something that somebody can do, you know, from an emotional install emotional intelligence perspective. Um I I hope people will remember, we'll write down, we'll say aloud, I am enough. Starting now, I am enough. And not be, don't buy into the shame. You you because your story of what you didn't get right, what you didn't say, what failed. Welcome to the club.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

Absolutely. I've revealed a number of mine, and I got more, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:12

If you had a longer podcast, we all do, right? Okay. So if that's the case, then why not start today with I'm enough?

SPEAKER_00 46:20

I'm enough.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

And I can begin.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

And I can begin.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

I am enough.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Just start there.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Thank you, Eric.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

You're welcome. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Thanks for having me. Tales from the Field presented by Ken DeTire. This day was the first day that I went to the islands to hunt for pythons. It's a day hunt in the winter, and we jungle bus through all of this just vegetation and brush and trees, trying to find the pythons that are breeding and basking. So this day, I'm with uh my friend Tom, who introduced me to the islands, and we also have this journalist with us. And we're in canoes and we're canoeing up this canal, and we had already caught four pythons that day, which is back then was unheard of. It was literally the best day ever. So we said, you know, we've got a long way to canoe back. You know, let's just stop hunting because it was getting late. So let's just head on back. Well, we're going back, and all of a sudden, on one of the islands, the journalist was like, hey, there's a python. So we kind of like backtrack, and yeah, you could see the python in like right between the vegetation. So since I was in the front of the canoe, I said, All right, I'll, you know, pull me up there, I'll just shimmy up. I said, pull me up real fast, and I'll just shimmy up and grab it, right? So I go to, like, I'm getting ready to grab this, and all of a sudden, Tom is right next to me. I don't even know how he got out of the canoe without me knowing. But, anyways, so I grab this python and he's like, Oh my gosh, there's another one. So, so he grabs that one. Now, these are both like 10-footers. Well, I'm looking over and there's a 13-foot female right there. I was like, Oh my, there's another python. So I said, give me your python. So he hand, because he was closer to the female. So he hands me his. So I've got these two 10-footers, you know, they they wrap around each leg, which was fine, you know, because they're not flailing about, but they're all like both trying to like bite at my face. So it was this kind of crazy thing. So I don't know what happened with Tom, but all of a sudden the 13-footer is going like right in front of me. And, you know, I don't know. I, my hands are full. What do I do? So I'm like, so I just step on the back of her head just to try to stop her. And but I was super off balance because I've got these two like trying to bite my face. And so I said, Tom, hurry up. And so he gets up right as I'm like falling off and losing my balance. So I have to use my leg to step, you know, step back to keep myself from falling down. And it's like, I don't know what he did. He like touched her or something, but she turned around to strike him at the same moment that he's like diving on her and gets her right in the neck. And of course, in my head, this is all slow motion. And so he lands on her and she's wrapping him up. And I've got these two. And I look over in the canoe, and this journalist is just sitting there watching. And I was like, hey, come help us. So he came over to help us, and we were all wrestling these pythons. It was a crazy day, but we got seven pythons that day. That was, well, actually, 12 is my best day now. But for that time period, seven was a very big deal. It was an awesome day. Bravery doesn't end when the episode does. If something you heard today stirred you, sit with it. Ask yourself where you've been choosing comfort over courage, and where one small brave step might change everything. Remember, bravery isn't about being fearless. It's about being honest and moving anyway. If this episode resonated, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're ready to keep hunting your best life of purpose, I'll meet you right back here next time. This is Hunting Bravery. Stay curious, stay courageous.