Learn and Discern
Learn and Discern is an educational tool for the ELCA as we journey together through the reconsideration of the Social Statement "Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust" process.
The podcast’s episodes will explore the following topics:
- A history of the ELCA’s social teachings and ministry policy on human sexuality.
- The nuances of Lutheran theological ethics.
- A deeper look at the history of the Lutheran understanding of “the bound conscience.”
- The sources of agreement and disagreement on human sexuality in the church.
- Lutheran approaches to faithful conversation.
This five-episode podcast is a companion to the study “Conscience and Conversation” Bible study that can be found at https://give.elca.org/s/5714954/jBSJPLJv
Learn and Discern
Disagreeing Well, Grounded by the Gospel
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of Learn and Discern, host Mitch McCartney speaks with Rev. Dr. Laurie Jungling and Rev. Dr. John Roth about how Christians can navigate deep disagreements, particularly around the ELCA's reconsideration of its human sexuality social statement. The conversation explores the underlying causes of disagreement, including differing interpretations of scripture, tradition, reason, experience, and ethical decision-making. Both guests emphasize that the church's unity is grounded not in agreement on every issue, but in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the shared belief in God's grace. The discussion highlights humility, mutual understanding, and the importance of remaining in relationship despite differences, ultimately calling the church to engage conversations with compassion and a commitment to the well-being of the whole body of Christ.
Welcome to Learn Discern. I am your host, Mitch McCartney, and I am thrilled today to have two folks here who are going to help talk to us about how we agree and disagree in the church. First, Reverend Dr. Lori Jungling serves as the program director for theological ethics at the OCA Churchwide Office. Previously, she was an associate professor of religion and ethics at Augustana College in South Dakota, and served six years as the Bishop of the Montana Synod. Welcome, Lori.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_00And the Reverend Dr. John Roth, who served for 12 years as the Bishop of the Central Southern Illinois Synod, prior to which he spent more than 25 years in congregational ministry. He earned his master's degree from Christ Seminary Semitics in St. Louis and from the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago. Holds a doctorate from Vanderbilt University. Welcome, John. Thank you. And so today we're going to talk about agreeing and disagreeing. Before I start that, I just want to know for audience, especially those who are watching. I promised Lori I would wear these purple suspenders and purple tie just for her today. Made good on my promise.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Thank you, Mitch.
SPEAKER_00Let's let's, you know, I know nobody ever disagrees in the church. I know that never happens, right? But um occasionally we do. And when we do, we have to figure out how to do so in loving ways. Um, we're talking specifically now about the reconsideration of the social statement, um, human sexuality, gift, and trust, the study that is now going on. And obviously, we know that not everybody agrees with everything that um surrounds the issues in that statement. What do you think are some of the underlying sources of our disagreements, whether they be theological disagreements or just ethical disagreements about hard topics in the church, specifically sexuality?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um I'll start that one. Uh, you know, I've been studying this for a long time and just watching the conversations across the church as we've talked about this topic but other moral topics and how we respond. And it just seems like there are agreements or there are disagreements, certainly at the level of how we understand um certain things like gender identity, for example. But actually, um underneath those disagreements are disagreements about, for example, the sources we turn to when it comes to how we make our case, you know, um, how do I know this is right or wrong? And so some folks we turn to scripture, and scripture is very important for the Lutheran tradition. At the same time, um, we differ on interpretations of particular scripture passages and which passages are most important. We also may uh disagree on how uh the Christian tradition should play a role in our discernment process, and that includes the Lutheran confessions and what Luther says uh compared to what is being said now. And so we may disagree on that. Um, we may disagree on things like um science and what reason tells us or human knowledge, and and you know, we also disagree on experience. Um, you know, experience is a tricky thing because uh we often talk about it as the final response to where things uh ought to end up, but in fact, um experience only gives us part of um the response. I think we also disagree in um how we make our moral choices, you know. Um it's called methods in ethics. And, you know, it's like some people turn to rules and principles that govern. And so somebody may say, well, scripture says, or God says, or my mom says I should eat my peas, for example. Um, whereas others may turn to the impact of the action, you know, the consequences. Um, and others may point to character and say, you know, somebody is a good Christian or a bad Christian if they think this or that. Um so I think those are two of the places where we disagree um in in the church that kind of undergirds the the disagreements we have about the specific topic of say sexuality.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I thank you, uh Lori. I think that that um uh is a is a good overview. Uh the only thing that I would really add to that is um probably everybody uses at one point uh all of those things. And it depends upon how we weight each of those, experience scripture. Uh and and so it's it's a more complex uh issue than simply where do we get our information.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think another place that I'm seeing where we disagree is just how we should disagree. You know, there are those who uh really think we need to uh take a stand, and there are others who think we need to walk more slowly, and then there are other pieces of this kind of how do we disagree? And I know we're gonna get into that a little more later, but uh we disagree on how we should disagree, and uh so it gets a little messy, right? Uh yeah, and um and and I think too, it's not so much disagreement, but perhaps misunderstandings on how our church, uh our church polity functions, you know, who has um who who makes the decisions at which in which place. So for example, who calls pastors? Well, congregations call pastors, you know, um uh synods decide who's gonna be ordained, bishops offer pastoral guidance. It's you know, and so just kind of not understanding fully our polity um can can result in some disagreement in in this church anyway.
SPEAKER_00You know, I think that's a fascinating point, Lori, because one of the things that I learned back earlier in my career years and years and years ago, when I worked in that that fascinating profession called politics, is um we sometimes get engaged in meta talk. And so, like you said, sometimes we disagree about how we disagree, or when we talk about process, sometimes the issue doesn't really isn't really the issue because we end up talking about the metatalk because we don't want to talk about the real she and have that direct conversation with another. Is that a fair statement?
SPEAKER_02I yes, I think so.
SPEAKER_00Learn and discern is a podcast of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and accompanies the study Conscience and Conversation, a study of the ELCA's reconsideration of the social statement, human sexuality, gift, and trust. So, John, that that kind of leads me then to think about there's a lot of things that we have in common in the church and that we agree on. We have all sorts of statements of faithful agreement that we can make that we can have on this issue of faith sexuality or any other issue. Um, as we engage in this reconsideration process, what where are the important areas for us to to be looking at how we can agree with each other?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you. Um I I think that there are areas where we I and I'll talk about that, I'll answer your question, but but first let me say that I have a deep concern that we learn how to disagree well. Not necessarily that we will agree on everything ultimately, we may not. But I I am I'm very uh concerned that we stay together as church together and disagree well. I will start with your the your question though. What we agree on, what we all agree on is that we are saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ, crucified, risen, and ascended. We agree in the gospel that we cannot we we are not redeemed and saved by our own doing or our own work. We are dependent, fully dependent upon Jesus Christ, God in Jesus Christ, and and uh the life and salvation we receive through that. That's the glue actually that holds us together, and particular, particularly as Lutheran Christians. So um uh you know, I I would put this question to people. I would say, can I grant that a person, another person in the ELCA, a friend, a person in the congregation, can I grant that that person may be wrong on the issue of gender id on issues of gender identity or sexuality, and yet that person be fully trusting in Christ and Christ alone for forgiveness and reconciliation with God. The proper distinction of uh law and gospel is bedrock Lutheran theology, Lutheran Christianity. This essential law gospel perspective holds that convictions of uh gender identity and sexual behavior are convictions about the law. Consequently, my convictions or conclusions regarding the ethics of human sexuality, as the initial title was, those whichever wherever I am on the uh continuum of options, these are that those convictions are not the Christian gospel. They are not the power of God for salvation. The power of God for salvation brings us together as church. I I always go to um Article 7, Augsburg Confession, our you know, Christian confessions, our our Lutheran confessions, I mean to say. And I'll just uh uh uh one portion of that for the true unity of the church, it is enough, it is enough to agree concerning the teaching of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments. But I think that uh our way to be in church together, and that's what I deeply wish for, our way to be doing that has to be through recognizing even those who disagree with us fundamentally that they can be uh forgiven, redeemed child children of God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I mean I I think uh I when you when you uh quoted the Augsburg confession there, um the word unity popped to mind, you know, and what does unity mean? And I think uh, you know, from this is from a kind of an ethicist perspective, um there's this idea that unity must mean we all, you know, it's one uniform note. I used to teach this in the congregation, where you know, unity is not just hitting the same note at the same volume at the same tempo, but neither is should the church be kind of this cacophony if you throw your hand on a keyboard and just create all this notes, right? Um, unity is um is a harmony, it's it's song. Um, it and that song may be jazz, or it may be rock and roll, or it may be uh a symphony by um you know Mozart or something. And sometimes it does feel like we're not singing the same song. Um and so the question then becomes what is the underlying um harmony that's holding us together? And that's this this gospel that um, you know, this good news of Jesus Christ for all. And it doesn't really um whoever we are, that good news um is is for everyone. And we all have been created in the image of God. We all um and so how do we live that out? I think that's the biggest question is is because we're sinners too, right? You know, and we're gonna screw it up. And and how do we live it out when people are really harmed by that sin, you know, when when what I say, what I do can really hurt um the community as a whole, but also individual people in in the midst of you know who they are and how they're living. So um, you know, and that's Christian ethics always dependent on the gospel. Always, you know, it's it's the law. Um, and we talk about the law in the Lutheran church, but uh all of it is undergirded by the gospel. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01But that's a that's that thank you. That's a that's a terrific uh issue. What what does it look like? Let me give you one example of what I think uh wholehearted trust in the grace of God uh through Jesus Christ, the gospel, um and disagreeing. Disagreeing well. I'm disagreeing well when after thinking through my own position and expressing it with true conviction, I can acknowledge that as a fallen, flawed human being, I myself may be wrong. This characteristic of it is uh of of how we get in through to disagreeing well is essential, and it is tied directly to the fact that we are sinuseless epicator, at the same time sinner and sin and saint. Um I have to be able to say honestly, okay, I may be wrong, and that doesn't happen unless we truly trust the gospel. It does not happen unless we truly put all of our faith and hope on the gospel. Does that clarify where I am on that?
SPEAKER_00That helps a lot, John. In fact, I'm glad you brought that up. One of my mentors who I um learned so much from was uh Bishop Dave Defrize in the Nebraska Synod. Um, I used to work for the Nebraska Synod and worked for him, and he said the exact same thing. He said the most important words in the English language are, but I could be wrong. And I we that was something that has always resonated with me. So I really appreciated you bringing that up because that's something that's so important for everybody to hear. For more information about the study or to see this podcast or other resources, go to elca.org slash reconsiderations. So we we've talked about the gospel and and and how that is something we can call that we need to coalesce around. I mean, how what effect do you think it would have on our conversation specifically that we're having now about human sexuality if we could get people to focus in on the gospel specifically and how that would affect our conversations?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think I'm going back to what I just said that yes, uh the trust in the gospel gives us the latitude, number one, to be able to listen to the other person, knowing that that person is also loved and beloved by God. And number two, allows us to say, you know, I need to listen to this. Actually, um Dr. Wangert in his podcast on this really uh did an excellent job uh of explaining what the intent of bound conscience was. The intent of the idea of bound conscience would be that I would see to it that the person that with whom I disagree would be able to have their day of here of being heard by me and know that they have been heard. That happens only when I am relying on the gospel and not on my opinions, my convictions about sexual ethics. Um and and that and I'm not uh holding on to them and fighting about that. The gospel gives us the opportunity to do what bound conscience was intended to do. It got off the rails, I know that, but um uh it also I'll I'll uh give a shout out to um Dr. Kleinhans also when her with her quote uh from Luther on uh Galatians 6, where you gotta have strong bones to love and and to be with those people. That doesn't come from anything but the gospel.
SPEAKER_00Lori, I'm gonna give you the last word on this and and talk a little bit about the same question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um, you know, you lifted up uh really well, I think, John, just kind of this entering into the conversation from a place of humility, right? That I I'm not God, you're not God. We need to be having this conversation of or this, you know, mutual consolation and conversation with one another where we do listen to each other. And one of the things I noticed from um the sexuality statement um is is the word respect pops up a lot. And and I I do wonder sometimes, how are we interpreting that? Um, and is am I just more concerned about if you're respecting me and I don't feel necessarily the need to respect you? And and and yet respecting somebody is seeing them as this child of God, is is hearing what they have to say at you know at their deepest level, not just the surface, um, but you know, the pain, yes, that they may be experiencing, their convictions, um, their joys in life. Um, and then I think respect also says, you belong to me as part of the body of Christ, right? We belong together, and nothing can can separate that. Uh, you know, Romans 8. Um, and then to feel like one matters in the conversation, that that, you know, that I I have a purpose there just like you do. And how do we how do we engage that conversation in such a way where both of us have something to say and something to hear from each other and learn from? And so um I think uh a conversation that starts from this place of the gospel, and even in the midst of just really deep um uh disagreement where there has been harm and pain, and you mentioned the bound conscience, and it has been used and misused and abused over the past how many years? Um, and and real people have gotten really harmed by its use. Um and and so how do we, you know, how do how do we find a third way, if you will, um, that can um help us to have these conversations, see each other as as fellow children of God, fellow brothers and sisters and siblings in the body of Christ, and and um continue to be church together even in the midst of these disagreements. So, you know, I'm I'm reminded of this story that I I would sometimes use as a sermon illustration. Maybe you've heard it, but the the difference between heaven and hell in the story is um they're in heaven and hell both have a table with a pot of soup. And in both places, everybody has spoons attached to their arms, and they can't, you know. In hell, everybody's trying to feed themselves, right? They're not trying, they're not thinking about their neighbor, they're trying to feed themselves. In heaven, everybody's using the stomach spoon at the end of their arm to feed others, to feed somebody else. And and I think sometimes um we we can forget that that person who may disagree with us um is is a human being and God loves them too, right? And how do we how do we remember that as we engage these conversations going forward?
SPEAKER_00What a great point to end this conversation on. I hope everybody, if they can't agree on anything else, can at least agree that the two of you have brought us a wealth of things to think about um on how we talk to each other in the church. And I thank both of you, John and Lori, for being with us today and having this important conversation with us. Um, thanks for being on Learn Learn and Discern. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you very much. And I'm flattered that you invited me to be part of this. I'm happy to have done it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Yes, thank you, Mitch.
SPEAKER_00If you have questions about conscience and conversation, the ELCA's study of the reconsideration of the social statement, human sexuality, gift, and trust, you can contact us at reconsiderations at elca.org.