Spirit-led Conversations, Courageous Tensions

In this episode of Learn and Discern, host Mitch McCartney speaks with ELCA Churchwide staff members, Ms. Kristen Opalinski (Manager, Ecumenical and Interreligious Relations) and Regina Banks (Director, Lutheran Office of Public Policy California) about how Christians can engage in difficult yet faithful conversations within the church, as well as the role of ELCA social teachings in shaping faithful action, public witness, and community life. The discussion emphasizes that disagreements are natural parts of both church life and Lutheran identity, but that they can become opportunities for growth, renewal, and deeper understanding when approached with courage. The guests highlight the challenges posed by polarization and hyper-partisanship, encouraging Christians to resist divisive narratives by practicing empathy, active listening, and openness to the Holy Spirit's guidance. Ultimately, they present the tensions of difficult conversations not as threats to unity but as holy opportunities for mutual transformation, stronger relationships, and faithful discernment within the body of Christ.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:03

Welcome to Learn and Discern. I'm your host, Mitch McCartney, and I am so thrilled today to have a couple guests with us who are going to have a conversation with me about conversations. And we know that sometimes in the church those conversations can be spirit-led and fun-filled conversations, but we also know that in any group of people there are going to be difficult conversations. And the social teachings that we have in the church are no exception. So we're going to talk a little bit about that today as it relates to the study that we're doing with the reconsiderations of the human sexuality task force and other things. But first, let me introduce you to my new friends and guests, Kristen Obolinski, serves as the manager for ecumenical and interreligious relations for the ELCA. Her role centers around helping shepherd new and existing ecumenical and interreligious partnerships, communicate their work, and assist in the development of resources to aid ELCA members in this work. Welcome, Kristen.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Thank you so much, Mitch. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

And we are you thank you. And we are also joined by Regina Banks, who serves as the director of the Lutheran Office of Public Policy California, leading the ELCA's state-level advocacy on issues of economic justice, climate and creation care, housing, and criminal justice reform. Regina works to help congregations and faith communities connect the ELCA's social teachings with faithful action in public life. Regina, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Great. Well, I'm I love having both of you here. I know we had some wonderful conversations as we were getting ready for this conversation that we're about to have. And so as I said when we start, let's have a conversation about conversations. Um my experience has been in the church, and I've been in a lot of different roles, um, that if we could agree on one thing about conversations in the church, it is that we will disagree. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_01 1:53

That sounds right. That sounds right.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

I mean, I've I've seen disagreements over how we spend the money, what color we paint the bathrooms, where the youth trip is going to be this year. But when we get to our identity as Lutherans and in the ELCA, and we think about scripture and we think about Luther's teachings and the Augsburg Confessions, and um, and for for a nerd with words like me, the Constitution and our governing documents, um, I also think that the social teachings are right there because the social teachings really talk about where we see Christ calling us to be in the world and and how we live that out. But that can cause some tension, that can cause some disagreement. Um, and so I guess where I want to start with, maybe Regina, you'd like to start off is how have you used or applied ELCA social teachings in your context?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, so it's really interesting that we're having this conversation in the final week of August. This is uh it's August 28th, and the California state legislature is finishing out its session right now. So they're gonna go until midnight tonight or or so and go pretty late uh Monday and Tuesday next week, and then they're done. So that has been uh a whole uh since January 1st or 2nd, all of the work that we put into getting legislation across um across the line in the state legislature, and then it goes to the governor's desk. At the same time, uh we are considering ballot propositions, and the state of California has a really robust ballot proposition process, which is the opportunity for citizens to put laws on directly on the ballot. And when I took this role in 2019, I was told um you can change everything or nothing, but what you absolutely have to do is give voting recommendations for the ballot propositions when they come out in California. And typically that happens every two years. And I'm gonna be honest with you, this is perhaps, and and some people get angry with me when I say this, but it is perhaps the holiest conversation that I have every two years, is the 14 people who serve on the policy council of the Lutheran Office of Public Policy California, which represents uh social service agencies, it represents congregations in big cities and small towns north and south, from the Nevada border out to the sea. There is a lot of difference there. And we've got however many propositions there are in this year, there are 14. And they're 14 very specific questions. And we take all of our social teaching and we say, What is a way for a faithful Lutheran to think about these 14 questions? And that is how we use our social statements and social teachings, and it is it is really a holy and honor, uh it's a time that I honor every two years, and and we got a bonus one this last time because due to reasons, but um it's an opportunity to pour through the social statements and pour through the teachings. What do we think we that the the writers meant when they said this? Um they clearly were not thinking about AI, but were they? I mean, can you apply it to AI? They clearly were not thinking about medical research necessarily in this context. Can we extrapolate? Is that fair? And 14 people in the room, we've got 18 different opinions. But you've got to give some some voting guidance, and you know, I I don't mean to be I don't mean for this to sound like hyperbole, but um I was raised in a Christian household. I I was raised in the sure and certain knowledge of the resurrection, but I am a Lutheran because of the social statements and teachings. They are beautiful. I commend them to anybody's reading, which is not to say that I agree with, but it is to say that I agree with the way that the issues were thought about and considered, and I'm grateful for them in the work that I get to do.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

That's that's amazing because we hear so much about people who talk about people leaving the church or afraid of people leaving the church, and it's great to hear a story of somebody who says, I came to the church because of social teachers. I think people need to know that and understand that that that that that there is there is uh uh an attraction for folks to the theology that we have in the LCA, that it's not just people leaving, they're people coming to the LCA, and that's that's I really really value you sharing that story with us. That's awesome. Kristen, I you know, um I think, and I you can tell me if you think I'm wrong, because I'm not a cradle Lutheran. I don't know if you are, but I'm not. But my sense is that Lutherans, myself included, are generally non-confrontational. I think most people in the church are, because we really don't want to rock the boat in the church, whether regardless of what your theology is. But I get the sense that we're a little non-confrontational. That can be difficult sometimes when we know a difficult conversation has to be held. And I'm not talking about the times when people walk away from unhealthy confrontation, because that's that's just that happens. But there are times when we really need to lean into the tension, isn't there? I mean, how can we how can we take that tension and use that in the church to try and bring us closer together?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, I mean, it's it's kind of the irony in that we tend to be in our congregations and in our our faith communities, we avoid a lot of conflict and avoid that tension. And yet our theology actually embraces the tension. Um, we as Lutherans believe in both and uh as we approach just about any conversation, any uh, you know, question of theology. Um, as we read scripture, we're always weighing uh where that scripture leads into the tension of who we are. Uh and so while we may avoid conflict, uh I would argue that that tension and conflict is actually embedded in our identity as Lutherans. And so uh if we look at the ways in which our social teachings have guided us over the decades as the ELCA and even as predecessor bodies to the ELCA, uh, there has been a spirit of conversation, of debate, and uh of healthy uh wrestling with questions from the very beginning of the foundation of this church. And so because that's been a part of who we are and how we feel called by God into the public sphere, uh, we really owe it to each other in this moment to continue that tradition and to do so courageously, because having difficult conversations takes courage. Uh, we don't take these kinds of conversations lightly. Um, there is a lot at stake, uh, both from a theological standpoint, but also a relational standpoint. And so when we enter into these spaces, especially when we're looking at this time of reconsiderations, uh, we do so with a way that invites all perspectives to the table. Um, we do so in ways that hopefully will create spaces for these difficult conversations to be had within congregations in ways where the focus is on where the spirit is leading us as a church rather than where the world uh or or the ways in which the world has sought to divide us uh takes root. And so, how do we as a church use this as an opportunity to learn to have these harder conversations in in broader ways so that we really are able to lean further into where the spirit is calling us?

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Great. No, I mean it kind of makes me, and maybe this is an oversimplification. So you'll tell me if it is. Um I mean, to me, conversation is of the church and conflict is of the world. And I think that's what I hear you saying.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Well, I I don't know. I mean, yes and no. Um, I think conflict can be of the church as well. Um, I think it depends on how we think and and navigate conflict. I don't think conflict is inherently a negative thing. In fact, often when we enter into that place of abrasion, it can actually lead us in a positive direction, a healthy direction towards something new. Um, and so I I wouldn't disregard you know conflict as purely of the world, um, but I would say that it the way in which we approach it is is the most important part. If we enter into conflict and seek ways that ensure all voices are heard within any kind of disagreement, and ensure that we approach conflict out of a place of curiosity and a sense of wanting to move towards something new, um, then I think it can really serve as a catalyst for growth. Um, I think part of the challenge and why we so often um shy away from any kind of disagreement or any kind of tension is because we're afraid that that may lead to further division. And I would argue that if we can become better equipped uh in the ways in which we engage each other when when that tension arises, uh then we can actually use that tension for growth and for for hopefully uh a more uh unified or or at the very least it will help propel us towards a future where we can see all of ourselves in it and not just those that we agree with.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

That's a that's a great way to put it. Learn and Discern is a podcast of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and accompanies the study Conscience and Conversation, a study of the ELCA's reconsideration of the social statement, human sexuality, gift, and trust. What I want to know is it's easy for the three of us to sit here at a distance and talk about how to get into a difficult conversation with somebody. But it's easier said than done, right? I mean, so uh particularly if it's not something that's in your wheelhouse normally. And so what recommendations, what advice would either one of you give somebody who's average um congregant in a church who feels the spirit is leading them to have this conversation with somebody, and yet at the same time, they know it's not gonna be easy, they know that there's gonna be pushback. And what kind of what kind of advice would you give somebody like that? Whoever wants to go first.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

So maybe I I I do want to say this this one thing as I was listening to Kristen and talking about whether um conflict was of the church or of the world. I do want to name, I'm I'm a state public policy officer. The SPPO network sits inside of witness in society. And so it is our role to look at the the witness of this church in society, and what we are pretty clear about, and what I think I don't think anybody is gonna disagree about is the radical hyper hyper partisanization of this nation. Um, that has been intentional, it has been manufactured, it has been very well funded, it is by design. Um, and so the fact that we find ourselves here is not a mistake in any way, and it's been manufactured by those who benefit um and benefit from those divisions, and so it is um, it might be in the church naturally because people are prone to conflict and people are in the church, but the way that it exists in our world right now is not natural in any way, and so our our refusal um to buy into that programming is a revolutionary act. Um, and so you get to take that revolutionary attitude, that radical listening ear to your your uh fellow parishioner, to your other, to your fellow church member, to your pastor, to the deacons that are around you. And that alone, being willing to sit in that tension, is at this point a revolution and it is the only way forward. I have seen so many people who I can give the get them versed on this piece of legislation or that this ballot proposition or that, but that fear that that feeling in the pit of their stomach that they don't want to go and join the fray that was done to you. Um and you can take back your power and authority in that place, and you can take it back secure that you've got the foundation in the church to enter that that space prayerfully and in in good company.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Well, Regina, that's that's a great point. I mean, I mean, there is so much division in the world right now, but and and it really does create this this this level of of of fear and and difficulty in people even being able to talk to somebody in a conversation. Um and and I and I do think to some extent you're right that it is intentional. Kristen, I mean, what what have you seen? What what what what's your response to that?

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah. I mean, we need to remind ourselves that uh there are a lot of ways in which uh we are being programmed to look at disagreement and differing viewpoints in binary ways. Um the approach has become that every disagreement is a zero-sum uh you know disagreement, that something that one side has to win and the other side loses. And the reality is that the gospel just doesn't speak to that. It speaks to a different reality, a reality where uh we lean into the tension of of who we are uh as human beings, uh led by the Holy Spirit into places, yes, of disagreement and of tension, but also of renewal and uh of always being uh recreated and reformed anew. And so we have to remind ourselves that this is holy work that we do, uh leaning into the tension of life and all the layers and and ways in which God has created us to be diverse uh and to be uniquely uh beautiful in in our own ways, uh, and to lean into that together leads us to that place of of renewal and reformation as as the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Yeah, I mean I really appreciate the way you articulate that, Kristen, because I think everybody thinks that being a Christian is easy. And it's not, right? I mean, there's shades of gray because we're dealing with real people, all of God's children, all created differently and trying to trying to mesh all together. So that's a wonderful perspective. I I'm thinking that that as the person who has to go in and have a conversation with this other person, maybe somebody that they've served alongside the church for years, they sang in the choir together, they've served in the potlucks together, and now they've got to have a converse, a difficult conversation because they're both very passionate about something. And so I'm wondering if we have some some specific tangible pieces of advice we could give those folks that they can use to help enter into those conversations. For more information about the study or to see this podcast or other resources, go to elca.org slash reconsiderations.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Well, I think Regina touched on on a huge part of that, which is entering into uh a place of where we center listening, the practice of listening as a core leading principle. I think we've gotten away from that uh in in the society. I think uh the forces that Regina uh alluded to have been hard at work at laying the groundwork so that we don't listen to each other. Um and and when listening stops and instead we're our our nature is to leap to defensiveness, um we continue to then recreate the vicious cycle that which is exactly what they uh hope will happen. Um and so I think if we can approach these really challenging conversations from a place of empathy and with open ears and open hearts, that I know it sounds simplified, but trust me, that taking that first step of saying, I'm going to check myself as I enter into this space. I am going to remind myself that I do not have all the answers, nor do I possess all the perspectives on this. And I am going to enter into this space from a place of humility and from a place of empathy and make sure that my ears and my heart are open to hear not just what the other person is saying, but to listen to where the Holy Spirit is leading all of us in the conversation. I think we forget about that. I think we forget that the Holy Spirit is at work in all of this. Um, even though it's sometimes really difficult to think that the spirit is at work in, you know, when when conversations get exceptionally difficult, um, I think it's easy to forget that that that is uh a reality. And so we need to remind ourselves as we enter into these spaces that uh the spirit is at work in the difficult spaces. Um I would argue that that's when the Holy Spirit really burns brightest, uh, is when we enter into the hardest conversations. And attempt to navigate the hardest path together. And so opening ourselves up to where these conversations may lead us, and not only where they may lead us, but where they may mutually transform us. Because that's that from the very beginning of the church, that is how discipleship has functioned. That is how community within the body of Christ has functioned. It has been a place where mutual transformation has taken place. And so we as Lutherans are in uh we have an opportunity in this moment to continue to lean into who we've been and keep our hearts and our our uh spirit, our minds, our uh, you know, our possibilities open to where the Holy Spirit is leading us next.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Well, absolutely, Kristen. Listening is is such an important piece of this, and I know that that's something that we all want to be better at. Are there's uh Regina, are there some other things specifically that that we might want to do as part of the listening or part of the interactions? And also, you know, your work in public policy, I'm guessing you've got some resources available that you might want to point people to.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

So, as a part of the ELCA State Public Policy Officers Network, what we realized uh a few years ago is that in order for us to do some of the more government and policy-facing work with others alongside of us, we needed to start being intentional about learning how to have these difficult conversations. Intended more for the public policy square, but the techniques are the same, whether you're talking to a legislator or you're talking to your sibling about who's gonna do the dishes after Thanksgiving. They're all similar techniques, right? Um, and so the first thing that I would say is uh contact your friendly state neighborhood, uh, friendly neighborhood, state public policy office. Um, many of them are having trainings about those kinds of how to have those conversations. Some places like Minnesota, they're called graceful conversations. I know that the Southeast Synod has a a training coming up in in September about conversations about the the new social statement in California. I've had trainings um with Welca, and we'll do that in their retreat in a couple of weeks. But one of the text techniques that I find um delightful when when done well is to expect yeses from unlikely places. Um you never know who might be on your side for one for this issue only. It it turns out that I have this this unique perspective because you don't know this, but I worked on an oil rig, and so I had um this experience that makes me pretty attuned to what goes on, you know, whatever people's life experiences are. And like, oh, I didn't know that about you. Okay, well, for this one issue only, we can agree on this little yes. Um, as people often say, a stop clock is right twice a day. And so expect to find those twice a day opportunities with people that you were not expecting. And of course, that goes back to the act of listening and being and listening with the best of intentions and the the small smiles and the gestures of warm welcome. But it really is expecting something radical and transformational to come out in the most unexpected ways. And that has been when I've been able to make allies of people that, oh, I didn't know you could could work with her. Yeah, if you're listening. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yep, absolutely. Boy, Regina Kristen. I mean, I wish we could keep going with this. And I hope sometime, I don't know if you're gonna be a church-wide assembly next time. If there are, let's find each other, let's have coffee, let's keep this conversation going because I'd love to do that. Um, so thrilled to have you, your perspectives and your expertise and your wisdom today. And I hopefully our folks who are listening will appreciate some of the wonderful advice that you've given. So thank you so much for being on Learn Discern and thank you all for listening to Learn and Discern today. If you have questions about conscience and conversation, the ELCA's study of the reconsideration of the social statement, human sexuality, gift, and trust, you can contact us at reconsiderations at elca.org.