Was Tyra Banks Toxic or Good TV?! | ANTM Documentary Recap w. Nicholas Lindsey

Waddup Petty Posse!

We’re officially in our guest era, and for our FIRST guest ever, we’re joined by Nicholas Lindsey, a culture and tech journalist at the University of Southern California and host of the Culturally Incompetent podcast.

We met at PodFest and immediately got into the mess.

In this episode, we’re breaking down the America’s Next Top Model documentary and revisiting the moments that had everyone side-eyeing Tyra Banks. But the real question is…was Tyra actually that bad, or did ANTM just age poorly?

From the pressure contestants faced, to the blurred lines between entertainment and exploitation, to how reality TV has historically treated women, especially Black women, this conversation goes way deeper than modeling.

We’re talking accountability, production choices, and the reality behind “reality TV.”

If you grew up watching ANTM, this episode might change how you see everything.

🎧 Check out Nicholas Lindsey’s podcast: Culturally Incompetent: An Untraditional Technology Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/culturally-incompetent-an-untraditional-technology/id1852395926

Tune in for this week’s dose of mess.

#America’s Next Top Model documentary #Tyra Banks controversy #ANTMbreakdown #reality TV analysis #podcast guest interview #reality TV culture

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

You know, there's a lot of similarities between like baddies and America's next time model. And I just I I really do see a lot of the similarities and the and the and the critics, like you know what I mean? The criticism behind both. So uh does the problem still remain? Like, is it an industry problem or is it just a show problem? I mean, do you watch baddies?

SPEAKER_03 0:20

What is a no?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Blah blah blah blah blah. Welcome back to another episode of the Petty Headquarters. I'm your host, Tiana Lock, and this is Jesse Strange. And we are back at it again with another episode, y'all. And of course, we are going to be doing something very different today. Oh my god, yes! Okay, so as you can see, we have a special guest by the name of Nicholas Lindsay, y'all. Yes, yes, I'm so excited. Yes, and he also has his own podcast, yo. That is so true.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

That is true, yes. Yes, oh my god, culturally incompetent. Yes, yes, it is, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:38

So tell the people who you are and what you're about, Nicholas.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah, absolutely. So I am a podcaster, but I'm also a culture and tech um journalist over at University of Southern California. So with like the sports and technology that's happening over in LA, we're like the full force of it all, right? And so basically, I handle like all like the journalistic stories, everything like that. And I also have my podcast as well, culturally incompetent, worked at Facebook. Well, it's called Meta now, child.

SPEAKER_05 2:08

You know, they try to run away from trying to run away, you know, from getting losses.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

But yeah, so basically, um like meta, also Accenture, quite a few other tech places, and so like now I'm here. Also lived in New York. I was at um used to um do fashion design, a show that New York Fashion Weekly fashion week. Yeah, so New York was one of the youngest um designers ever showed New York Fashion Week. Okay, yeah, so I did that and also did uh Los Angeles and yeah, big things.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

Yes, that's why he wants to live out here again. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

That's why I said I could take like the long dialogue and whatever I'd be like rolling right in in a minute. Like it's not a problem.

SPEAKER_05 2:51

Oh my goodness, that's pretty dope. So I I love that you're here because first of all, you're like the first guest ever to be in the studio at the PAG. Period. Period. Yes. Oh my goodness. I have a question. Yeah, what's up? What is what was some of like the biggest like brands, like fashion brands that you worked with when you were out here?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

When I worked, well, I did my own brand when I was like over here. Okay, okay, okay, okay. But a lot of the brands that I was like in the face of was like Chloe, also Celine, okay, Dior. I was around a lot. Um goodness gracious, quite like a few.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

So funny that you mentioned that you at Fashion Week, because I was just telling uh a coworker of mine, I'm like, listen, I cannot stand going to the city and not looking cute during fashion week. Because everybody is looking the fuck good.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Because you know you always get photographed at Fashion Week, right? So like you have to be like right on time every time you're like over here, but also you really have to like understand like what the public is going, like how that whole idea is. Like, you know, complete that science. Right, right. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

Exactly. No, it's really cool. And the best part about Fashion Week is that because there's always such exotic outfits, I love it because I also get inspiration. Like, I'm like, oh, I didn't think about this, or I didn't think about that. That's fire, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

That is so true. And it depends on like also like all around like the whole world. Like, what are you wearing for like for Paris? Right? Paris is very like chic and beautiful, and like London is living more artistic and out there. That's true. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

And then they all come together to one city for a week, and then you get to see all types of peaceful, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Right, right. Or you can look, you know, trashy eccentric and look. Yo, man, the homeless vibe. I know you could do as many different kinds of like things that you kind of want to make it cute.

SPEAKER_05 4:48

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 4:50

Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that we're learning so much more about you as you get here.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yes, I am Nicholas and Ninexpa.

SPEAKER_05 5:00

But so we wanted to have this conversation with you. So basically, our whole topic that we're gonna discuss today is going to be the America's Next Top Model documentary, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Yeah, goddammit, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

Right. The internet's been talking about it, everybody's been talking about it, and we are finally like, you know what, let's talk about it because that's an old school reality TV throwback.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Yes, yeah, like hardcore.

SPEAKER_05 5:24

Hey! So I'm so happy that you're here to join us in this conversation because let's let's just okay, America's next top model, right? Right. What was this show? So, this was a show where Tyra Banks, who was also a supermodel at the time, she brought on girls to say that I want to change their lives, and it didn't matter how they looked. It was a whole thing about just like, you know, creating a reality show mixed with real world, but also showcasing how the modeling world can actually be, right? Right. So that was essentially the foundation of the show for the people that don't know and never watched it growing up. Okay. That's true. Yeah. So that's that. And you know, back then that show was a hit.

SPEAKER_06 6:03

Right. It was a hit, it was something else, right?

SPEAKER_05 6:06

It was it was definitely something else. But of course, as we come to today, it we realized no, it was it was pretty fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

It was fucked up, it was fucked up, but that also was 2002, 2003, too.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Okay, so that's the interesting part about it because a lot of people will like, or even in the documentary, which we haven't even gotten into it yet, but like that's the thing, right? They're like, oh, that was so 2002, 2010, back in the day. And it's like interesting that that conversation, does that conversation take away the accountability part?

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Absolutely the fuck not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, no, it doesn't, no, but yeah, but also we have to remember that like 2002, 2003 was the start of like a lot of like trash. Um, it was like trash reality television. Yeah, for sure. In Boston, it was like the beginning of like what reality television is today. Right. Like back in the 90s, there was like real world and yes, yes, yes, early making a band. But just like a lot of those shows that was like done through like MTV, and it showed you like the inside life of things. Things didn't really get real, real like sticking and popping though, until like that early 2000s that we just saw everything explode. I love New York, yes, yes, rock of love, all those shows.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Oh my god, that's so out of control. That was out of control. It was that was the fun stuff though.

SPEAKER_05 7:35

It was, and that's the thing. It was so it's so funny because they said too in the documentary that oh, like reality TV had a stigma back then and it doesn't have a stigma anymore, which I disagree. I think it still has a stigma, yeah. It still happens, right? For sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I think we like we're in a situation like right now, especially in our culture, that everything is being insane, right? And so too much, it's way too much.

SPEAKER_05 8:00

It's like it's like bring back shame, please.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Uh hello, we need to be. We need something we need something fucking going on, like 100%. But that's like the thing is is that now people are just acting up just to be acting out, just for clout. That's it, yeah, for clout to see if they'd be able to have a hit on YouTube or Instagram or TikTok. But like back then, it was so much more um authentic. And like, you know, people just like, I can't believe these actually doing this. Right. Right, right, exactly. But I think like since like Kim K and also like Tiffany Pollard and all of them actually like created like this like nuisance, like, hey, you actually can make it big by being, you know, trashy and classy and fabulous. Then everybody's like, let me do it.

SPEAKER_05 8:45

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Oh, it's funny that you say that because that was actually uh so we were coming up with topics on what to talk about today.

SPEAKER_06 8:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Uh, and that was a part of the like that was a topic was like, did Kim Kardashian create or pioneer uh, I guess, like content creators? Because they had no talent really other than marketing. They market themselves, and you know, that's what ended up becoming, and and like you just mentioned, like they look at Kim K, who literally was just a reality TV star and a little bit, you know, how she got her story. We already know, but yeah, still, right? She made it and she lives this lavish life now.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Right, right. That part.

SPEAKER_05 9:27

But what's like taking it back to like the documentary though, so they also showed that a lot of these girls that went on there, they were traumatized, right? Especially like they put their traumas on display for photo shoots and for challenges and things like that. But then after we found out that most of them went on to not have careers, none, you know. I think the only one I know that was her name, Eve Ava.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah, Ava, right? Eva, yeah, so like Eva Marcel. So yeah, but she is also like an actress and that's right. She liked went to actress and also reality TV and right.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

So she didn't even she didn't even do modeling. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

The only one really considered actually Winnie Harlow.

SPEAKER_05 10:09

Right, exactly. Yeah, and so finding that out, because I never knew what happened after that. I was also like really young watching the show too. So I remember watching it and was like so hype, but some of the challenges were crazy though. They were inappropriate, they were very bro. They showed the one where like they the the shooting one, the killing one was crazy. Oh, that wasn't it. I was like, did a man pioneer this? Because it was giving that. Well, it was giving that. I mean, so so basically, like the models had to pretend like they were murdered in a shoot. And so one of the girls, her mother had died by getting shot, and she had to propose like she got her head shot against the wall. It was like a whole thing, right? And they just the their show basically became mixing outlandish things with the photo shoots as challenges just to see how far the girls could go, how bad do you really want this? Kind of it's you know, similar to like making the band, like how Diddy would just do crazy, have them do shit just to do shit all day long, right? Just to see like, do you really want this? Well, this is what it is, this is how the industry is, this is how the agency is, and you know, Tyra was ruthless, Janice was ruthless, right? You know, Janice Dickinson. And and it's it's crazy because she wasn't present in the documentary, she refused.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

And you know, she should have been on that documentary. She should have. She should have been. Because I would love to hear what her side had been. Because she was like kind of take Do you remember the Janice Dickinson modeling age?

SPEAKER_05 11:40

No, I don't remember that TV show. Yes, please tell us, put us on, put us on.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Okay, so this happened like as soon as she got kicked off from Megan's next top model. So she did her own show. I think it was on MTV or VH1. I wasn't totally sure.

SPEAKER_05 11:54

How long did that run for?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

I think like two seasons because I was addicted as hell watching the show. It was so good because she'd be ripping through all those models. It was insane. It was insane. And she had her modeling agency in some shopping mall. I don't even remember that shit. Yes. Oh, it was y'all had to folks have to look it up. So we have to watch this show because she was like, you just see her like in the morning, plastic surgery falling off, like the she's re-like generating her face. Oh, it's it's good. It's good trying to figure out how to pay the bills. Whoa, oh, it's it's really, really good.

SPEAKER_05 12:31

Oh my god, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

And I love me some Janice Dickenson. But but it is, it is something else, though, I have to say.

SPEAKER_05 12:39

You know what's crazy? She came out and she spoke on Tyra and basically was like saying, Oh, yeah, she was so brutal, she was so this. And I'm just like, why weren't you at the documentary, babe?

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Right. That part she should have been on there, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:52

Like, speak your piece, but now like you refuse to go, and then you're talking shit like about Tyra. But I feel like it's like the what is it, the pop calling the kettle black or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah, she might probably not refreshed yet.

SPEAKER_05 13:03

Yeah, no, yeah. I really, I really don't like that. I really don't like that. But you know, overall, what I took from the documentary was that it's very this is my stance. So let me know what you think.

SPEAKER_06 13:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 13:16

Tyra was definitely fucked up. There's no excusing that. But I feel like because she's the face, it's very easy to just blame her when clearly there were more people hands-on in on this, especially the challenges, especially as you saw throughout the documentary. She seemed like she wasn't having as much control anymore, just like with Miss J, just like with um, who's the other one? Jay. Oh, he's the other Jay. Yeah, Mr.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Jay and Miss Jay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, Jay Manuel.

SPEAKER_05 13:43

Jay Manuel, right. Yeah, the Jays. Um, it seems like she became the face, but in terms of control over like what took place, it seemed like she was losing that control the deeper they got into the seasons, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah, I think the other part though that I was like really thinking about it is that I think the show ran away from her from what she originally wanted. Right. And I think due to the hard, like the hard knocks that she had to deal with to getting that show even like greenlit, right? She had to go with a UPN for God's sake. Right. UPN was about to like belly up. And so they're like, this is gonna be a sink or swim kind of situation. And so once they saw that, that's when Viacon basically got in and they're like, Okay, we this is becoming popular, we haven't done this before, let's go ahead and do it. But I I kind of like feel like on her side though is is that those executives wanted to have more of this. They they wanted they needed something to keep those that advertising burning. They should have shocked and stuff like that. And so in order to do that, that's gonna affect her and get runs away from what she originally wanted.

SPEAKER_05 14:58

Right. What I noticed too about like watching the documentary is that there seems to be also an emphasis on the relationship between Tyra, between J Manuel and Miss J. We find out that she never visited Miss J when he got sick, suffered from a stroke and everything. So that was mind-blowing to me. And to see also like how like J Manuel and Tyra's relationship, how he opened up about that, and was like how he wanted to leave the show. Like in the middle of the season, he wanted to leave, but then things got weird. Then he tried to tell her, then she ghosted him, didn't communicate with him, then their relationship was just not a thing. She also didn't want to talk about it in the documentary, which I was like, okay, this is some shady shit. Like, what really went down? And what's the point of you doing this if you didn't want to talk about whatever? All these years, right? Yeah. So I'm just trying to figure out like who is Tyra and like why was she really having all of these? It's it's giving she was a bitch, right? But I feel like it's so easy to push that narrative. Like, what are your thoughts on that in terms of like the relationship between her, Miss J, J Manuel, and things like that?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

I think they were a tight-knit group. Yeah, I think. I think they were very, very tight, best friends, tight-knit group. Like, you know, Miss J knew Tyra since she was 16 years old. Like, and so like seeing that and like basically knowing that like this is your unit and your unit is gonna take you far. I I could definitely see like from like her side that she's like, I really want this to get tired, right? And just be like good. I really do feel though, is I think it's the behavior of why she did not contact him. Right and stuff, I really feel that was based off of lawyers. Really? Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_06 16:45

Wow, I think about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah, I and I think that's why she still doesn't want to talk today. Because the thing is, is that when you're in a type of business like that, everybody's bound by contracts all day long. Even when you're like, I don't want to be on a show, I want to stay on a show, or whatever. So when you start severing ties and it's not at the end of your contract, lawyers literally tell you it's like you gotta shut the hell up. They will tell you that. They're like anything that's not like you know, go through agreements or anything like that, anything that you'll say will be held against you. And so, like, whatever you do, lock it down and tell us about it. I think what the problem is, is is that since also like you know, J Manuel is like he was in a waiting, he'd be able to have his own makeup line, right? And like all these other things. And so when that part goes in, that also goes in as a business situation. Would Tyro like to invest in that, you know? Or like he's connected with it. What else is gonna be happening that's gonna like trigger that as well when they do their exit? And so I just like see like for her, she was like, I have to shut the fuck up because I really want to talk, but whatever I say, I can't do it.

SPEAKER_05 17:58

But then she just stopped talking to completely, even as a friend.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

And I think that's bullshit thing. Right, right. Yeah, and that's like really inappropriate to do that.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

I guess like so. It's interesting because I coming from a perspective of someone that never really grew attached to the show because I never watched it.

SPEAKER_06 18:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Um, so when I did my my research, it was a little bit less connected to these people. And I feel like that come so when I'm looking at Tyra, I'm looking at her from an unbiased perspective. Where I I look at this girl, she was 16 or a little younger, she tried to get into modeling. You go through all these stages of trying to break barriers because at the time the representation was skinny white girl, blonde, blue eyes, you know, nobody, just skinny and like you know, anorexic vibes, right? So you see, and then you know, she's breaking barriers because essentially there was a lot of that she did, and and I give her credit for that, right? She fought. And so when you have that fighter mentality, right? You have that that perspective of having to do all that to get to the point where you are now. Uh, I feel like that creates a uh a disconnected version of yourself where it's all about business and it's all about survival and not necessarily about meaningful, being a good friend, you know, having people's best intentions. And even in the show, you see that, right? Because you see, well, if I had to go through a type of energy, you're gonna have to go through the suffering too. It's kind of like repeating trauma, right? And so I just I'm not taking any accountability because even in the documentary, she doesn't take accountability.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

She doesn't take nothing, and that's because she's trying to get her smile's cream together over in Australia, you know? She don't want to get fucked up from that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 19:59

And I just feel like all everything that she's doing, even in the in the documentary, it's like PR. Yes. Like 100%.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah. She talked 5% of that interview. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 20:11

She basically said, Well, that was a thing back then.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

That literally said, Girl, she was like diverting every single question.

SPEAKER_04 20:19

If it was this, she's like, Well, I didn't know. If it was this, it was like, oh, I didn't have control of that. Or it was always, you know, not her fault.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

But the other part is that even with the whole all three parts of this series, she was just like, she was literally, yeah, you're right. She was in PR land the whole time. You felt no authenticity about her period. She was on business.

SPEAKER_06 20:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Let's just do it. Let's go. Let me wear my Karma San Diego outfit. Yeah. And she was just like, let's just go ahead and like make it happen in that direction. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

And that's where I feel like that's where I feel like it's it's coming from in a sense, like why she didn't reach out. I just don't feel like they were genuine. Yeah. Like I know you say they were because you saw the show. In the beginning, maybe. But I'm not sure. Yeah, that's why in the beginning they were. They all make you feel like that because it's industry friends, right? Like, that's how it is. They make you feel like that because they want you to be part of this. But and maybe at the time, maybe it felt like that. But in all reality, uh, even her hopping onto this documentary, it was all for to save face. She's a businesswoman first and a human after that. I don't even think there's human ahead. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

What you just said that a second ago, it also like just now making me think real quick, is that all of them agreed to be on this documentary together. Right. And so this is all a business deal for them to be on this, regardless if they liked each other or not. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

And that's what I'm saying. It's uh it's all like motivated by money because even like America's Next Time Model, UPN, they were going belly up. So what did they result to? They result to catering to Females, and uh women, but then also predominantly black, uh black community. Like it was a huge black community, and guess what? They're usually they're they're loyal, they're a loyal fan base.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

That's so true.

SPEAKER_04 22:11

And so when, you know, look at Zeus Network, another one, look at Tubi, where they're steering, right? Like if you pay attention, it's kind of fucked up when you think about it. But a lot of these businesses, you know, they'll resort to last minute, you know, a lot cater to a black communities because there is a market there. Because it's the scarcity market, you know, the scarcity business uh model where you don't have a lot of that representation. So here you go. And then it's kind of fucked up when you think about it. So even like how it got so raunchy and so out of pocket was because of shock factor and because of money. And even when they're like, oh, that's that's the time back in the day, but you stood there knowing things were wrong, not because of the time, but because of the money. Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

And we also know that there's like Sharkwink, there's points and all this other stuff. And they're telling these folks, like within the creative development team as well, telling them, hey, you gotta make this shit really extra pop in order to go ahead and grab it. Because like at that time, they were going against, let's see, the real world um newlywes to TV show that was happening at that time. Um, American Idol was going down at that time.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Yeah, it was all enjoyed, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah, and so they're instead of pinning those like things in buckets, right J, that was so too. That was like between all that, so between all of those shows at that moment, they weren't all happening within like reality non-script, reality scripted, right? They're all put into like one single bucket. So yeah, you're right. It's like crabs coming out of a bucket and then.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Exactly. And then also think about it, they they had cycles, not seasons, right? Right. So you were seeing two seasons basically in one year rather than a traditional one season a year type uh of model. So now when you think about how fast paced, and and I and I hate to bring it to Zeus because that's just me, because that's just like this is how I can relate it though, because I noticed there was a lot of similarities in there. Yeah, because Zeus is also fast paced, and they do two seasons and two two cycles in one year type type of filming.

SPEAKER_05 24:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

So it's just like I bring up the conversation of I why is it why why is it a problem for Tyra to be this controversial? And it's fucked up, and I'm not taking away from that. I'm not taking away from how there were so many fucked up situations that happened there. But you see in modern day today, Zeus Networks succeeding in that same model base. It's the same thing, it's controversial, it's fast paced, they break so many barriers, and they shine light into a market that hasn't been shined on before.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

But also, we have to take into account though, is just that that type of media like permeate into our markets at black and brown people. Right. And so everybody that's not black and brown sees us like that. Like that's their immediately thought process on that, right? And so also it creates like another like POC culture, like another subculture within ours, right? For sure. And so when you're seeing shows like that, like Jocelyn. Yeah, Jocelyn. Yeah, you know, Cabaret, you know, and like all those shows. What's her name, girl? Rob's uh ex. What's her name?

SPEAKER_05 25:38

Oh, uh Black China.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Black China's mom when she had her show.

SPEAKER_05 25:41

She was on Zeus, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yes, like when they were having like those shows. Yes, those shows are created for escapism, right? Right, but also other people see that as like that's that person's reality. Right. But really, it's really that real. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

Right, but is it all right? Because I I feel like Tyra also put like great example was uh the guy who uh the investor or the guy who who made the show is yeah, Ken.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah, yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

He was shocked because he was expecting that the uh the for her to pick a female to teach like a cat walk, the catwalk, right? Right, and she ended up choosing Ms. J, who is like a representation that you don't see on camera. That's so true. And like she brought a lot of the that the the that type of people that aren't normally represented on camera onto the camera and onto the scene. And I feel like it's essentially the same thing because it back in the day you didn't have that, right? Right, right. So and I just feel like going back to well, we'll just stick with this, right? But like I just I don't know, I feel like there's there's I don't understand why Tyra got as much. The only thing I have criticism I can say for her is that you know, these girls went on and did all that, the the whole teeth was crazy.

SPEAKER_05 27:03

That was so crazy.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

The teeth and not getting opportunities is messed up because at least let's be honest, I'm bringing it back to Zeus for a second. You go on Zeus, you get opportunities when it comes to bookings and and and that whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Because that's your platform, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

Yeah, but here but to find out that I think that's where it's more fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

That's like right, and they'll be like, well, these are free services, they gotta have it done anyway. You know, that's exactly what they think, right? When they're doing that stuff, yeah, but like also they have to like take account when move on the side for a second real fast. Remember, okay, season two, RuPaul's drag ring, right? Remember when Shangela came in.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Oh okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

So like when Shandela came in, she already knew that she wasn't gonna win that second season, right? But what she did was is that she told everybody, she's like, I'm gonna be on this new show right here. Let's go ahead and get the booking. She went over there and she created like her own model to basically be on beyond top, right? You know, market before the show. She marketed herself to like another level. And so that's how she got so popular outside the show because she did that. Then when she did the show, she left in the first try, right? That first season. Yeah, she did. Yeah, but she still got the bookings. That's her chance. So when season three happened, that's what happened. The thing is, is that that was what 2010. So now they'll have her time and she tried that, right? These models did not know how to do that at all. Because a lot of those models, especially during that period of time, they're just like, I'm on the show, I'll be able to go ahead and go to Lee or Ford or something like that. See what I do, and I'm just gonna go ahead and drop and just make it happen on that direction. But it doesn't work like that in a world only of fashion that might work somewhere in the clubs, right? Yes, or something like that. And you know that too. Booking fees and stuff. That might have a work in a club. That might talk shows probably wouldn't do it, but you had to create your own program. This show did not teach those people, like those people, how to create their own program. Someone she went right back to Walgreens, you know? Right, there's like all those things that are happening, which does not prepare you to do that, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:27

But that's what pissed me off the most because I'm just like, you're promising all these things, you're promising the contract, this, the agency, and like agencies didn't even want them because they were like reality TV. We don't want a reality TV.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

I know, but the other part is that she fulfilled the obligation, right? She said she fulfilled the contract. You will get a contract elite management. He didn't sit there and say, What kind of kind of contracts? You won't be on all the shows and all that other stuff.

SPEAKER_05 29:54

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

That's and that's the part. The part that I feel that, like for her, I think she's great in her business game as it comes to television. Right. Um, like you can't talk about model and all that stuff, but in the ice cream, but like for the show, she was a great businesswoman on that. I think she was a poor communicator.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

For like the rest, and that's something that yes, I said it tired. Like, those are the things that you have to like really work on. So sorry. Okay. But the thing is, is that yeah, she's such a bad communicator. Not everybody will be able to go ahead and read between the lines on this. Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

Right, right, right, right. And that's that's the thing that annoyed me the most too about her. You can tell, you can see the bad communication because how do you not take any type of accountability and you're so like, well, I didn't know, I didn't this, I didn't that, right? But you were a master editor.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

You're you're the master editor and you're also the CEO of your brand.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

That too, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:55

And being a CEO of a brand, you have to know every single thing that was going on around circle. If there's something that you don't know, you want to know why this wasn't been like brought to my attention. And you want to like figure out you're gonna start sleuthing like during that period of time. Right. Like for her to do what she did, and I'm talking on both of her business lines. That's like that's the Tyra show and also America's Top More. Right, right. She was really poor at that game.

SPEAKER_05 31:24

I will say though, she was for the time that it was, was ahead of her time. I mean, the show was a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

The great, the show was amazing, right?

SPEAKER_05 31:33

It was like even though it was a little some messed up moments, but right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

And that's the part though, is that she brought, she helped create a platform now help the girls.

SPEAKER_06 31:44

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

The thing is that the business side wasn't there to help the girls, right? Which is a problem, right? Because she could literally create an ecosystem of stunning girls. Yes. And she couldn't have had her own modeling agency. No, that's that's the other part. She had all those girls. I'm like, why do you gotta take them over to Elite? You can have your own tire, she couldn't have called a TB.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

Could have made it.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Right. She could have had all those girls go right with Valentino. She could go over there and have a trick. See, look, we're creating business models for her, and then she should have done that.

SPEAKER_05 32:17

She should have done that. And I wonder if there's something that we don't know where maybe she thought of it and something happened why she couldn't. I don't know. It seemed like she was getting controlled towards the culture season. But do you think we're gonna get a new season America's next time model?

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Not in America.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

She said in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

She's doing what's it? Germany is happening with Heidi Klum. I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of food that's still out there right now globally. So she created a franchise, she's like RuPaul, created a global franchise. Things are still going because, like, not in America, it's not in America, yeah. But she could do America's Not X Time model on Tubi and make it pop in. Yeah, she really can. She could go to the TV modeling agency. That's what we're calling a TB modeling agency. Yeah, she could literally eat.

SPEAKER_05 33:05

Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. She should have done that. But the thing is, at the end, she was like, stay tuned for cycle 25, 26. I was like, are you hinting that there's gonna be a new one? She sure did do that. She did. She did.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

But where's the production?

SPEAKER_05 33:21

Right. But is that why we got this documentary?

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Oh god.

SPEAKER_05 33:25

Is it the PR for the new season?

SPEAKER_01 33:27

I think it's hard to PR for a new season for her ice cream line. Not something happened in the night.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

No, you're laughing.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

She's doing that damn Smiley's ice cream, her little cinnamon swirls and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 33:46

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 33:48

So that Shandy situation that happened. Um, let I I just first of all, let me just run through what happened. Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 33:58

For those of you that don't know.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

For those that don't know, there was a scene on America's Next Top model, right? Where Shandy, she's one of the models, and they bring back these, what are they, Italian men? They brought back all four. All type of all four Italian men. They were doing a photo shoot, but then there was like a little party, right? They had a little like happy hour party. There was the jacuzzi, all the girls were in the jacuzzi with the guys, and the guys were just like doing a little too much. Shandy got drunk.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:29

But it seemed like she was at at some point not really aware. Like if she was just too, you know, and then she, I guess, hooks up. That's what they like to call it, right? With this guy. But eventually it looks like he takes advantage of her and they record the whole thing. And everyone's just creating this narrative, like you cheat on your boyfriend. You cheat on your boyfriend, you cheat on a boyfriend. And she's just gonna internal, she's in as you can see it, she's internalizing it, and she's just like, Oh my god, I did. She doesn't even remember.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:02

So that really fucked me up watching that. I was like, that was so you watched it in real time, or did you like I remember watching it in real time and bits and pieces, but not the part where like she was in the bed and all that stuff, but just like the part where she was in the hot tub and the part where she's crying on the phone, right? That's right with her boyfriend, and they recorded everything.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah, because we didn't see like like the shower files happening, right? Right. Like we didn't see all that until the actual documentary.

SPEAKER_05 35:33

Right, exactly. No, so when they showed that, I was actually very shocked because I don't remember seeing all that. And to me, you know, she just seeing her break down like that while on the phone with her boyfriend and him just going off on her, it broke my heart because I'm like, this is the shit that pisses me off. Like she was taken advantage of on fucking TV, right? And the first thing you say is you're a slut, you're a whore, you're this. Like, I don't know, slut shaming. Yes, they did. They tore her up. They tore her up, and even Tyra constantly bringing it up, wanting to obviously use it for a storyline, right? And it even got to the point where the camera people that were recording her apologized, like, I'm sorry, we're just doing our job like behind the scenes, because she was just broken at that moment when they had to record everything.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

I see there was just so many issues with that. Like, even to like right now, like even like Tyra's like I know. No, it's like you remember that. You she's acting like that. I'm like, you are you are literally a master editor while watching this stuff go down. That was the earlier season, too. Yes. But she turned around and like the next stage, she had a full part of the episode where she was having conversations with her about what she did. She alluded to it.

SPEAKER_04 36:49

It's like, how you know you damn well you didn't forget that.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Exactly. I like this when I watched that, I was getting I was got so angry while watching it. Yes. Because there's a thing between being like a journalist and you're just like, okay, I'm here for the story. Yeah. I can't be involved in the story of what's actually happening at a time. So I have to like get away from it. But just also human nature and understanding that this person's in danger. Yeah. And this person is is out to the account, they're completely drunk and they're gone. And you're letting someone take advantage of this person.

SPEAKER_05 37:32

Like everyone was present, no one stopped it. No one was talking about it. They should have stopped it immediately. Yeah, it's like no one's like, hey, you're getting a little too, you know, like let's go here. Like nobody. Like nobody.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

I'll be cussing that motherfucker out. Yeah. I'll be like, I would get out. Like I would. I would be like, basta, you're out of this fucking place right now. You see, like when you see things like that, that's like that's next level.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

I'm wondering though, right? I'm wondering, and just for conversational purposes, but like I'm wondering that in we say that now, which I believe you, and I believe me too. Because if I saw that, to me, my I guess my career wouldn't mean that much to me because I'm a girl's girl before I'm a businesswoman. Like that's just if I see that, cool. But I feel like that's the same thing where people say are like, you know, if I was there at this time, I would do this, but then we wouldn't hear all these stories of time and time again of women getting taken advantage of in the industry and people seeing it and just looking the other way.

SPEAKER_06 38:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

And I just wonder that, you know, you does being in front of the cameras, having your job on the line, having money on the line and all this stuff like, does that compromise, does that get compromised when, you know, when you're seeing stuff like that? Because I would imagine that those same people, if the cameras weren't rolling and there was there wasn't their job, would they have stepped in and et cetera? Not to make it right or wrong, but just as something to think about as far as like you know, does the cameras being present have something to do with it? And is it deeper than just, you know, a morality thing at that point?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

No, like I believe definitely before like me too, for sure. If a lot of cameramen decided to go ahead and just interview, that that could be an immediate black ball with a trade job. Or if someone did end up just saying, like, you know what, I don't care if it's my job or not, I am definitely gonna go ahead and go on it and I'm gonna stop this from happening. I'm gonna kick this guy off and we'll resume. That's what should have happened, right? But I think a lot of people, especially like within that trait stuff, everything is so interconnected, they were just kind of like, isn't my job were allowing this.

SPEAKER_04 39:54

And it used to be gay kept a lot more than that. All the time. Yeah, all the time.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

And that's what's so hard about this is that a lot of people, like for me, I would just would have went, regardless of what the time would have been. I would have went in immediately and I was like, This motherfucker gotta go. Yeah, that's it. See you later. Yeah, because they tried it, he tried it again on like that other season with Homegirl. Remember and the guy from Africa.

SPEAKER_05 40:20

Yes, yes, it was like all on her, and she's like, uh-uh. And she told them that I'm not comfortable with this because he's touching certain parts of me while posing. It was for like a photo shoot. Yep, I remember. And he didn't care too. And they're just telling her, Oh, you gotta be cute with him, you gotta be cute with him. And I'm like, yo, she wasn't with it. No, she wasn't with it, and she was all like, Let me think of what Tyra would say, and then they got mad because she stopped the photo shoot to say that. Like they were so mad. I and I noticed they were all mostly men on set on production, which I was like, that's probably why too, and contributes to the problem because like back then men really did not give a fuck. They did not, they did not give a fuck, they did not one bet.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

No, that's like you know, you know how problematic that is right, right.

SPEAKER_04 41:04

Yeah, and I like I said, I'm not I'm not trying to empathize with anything because at the end of the day, wrong is wrong, regardless of the time. Regardless of the time, and that's why I said that excuse is so it's such a pitiful excuse to me because it's like whether it was back then or now, you see it repeat. But wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 41:24

But what's even more shitty about that though was this that she brought Janet right on that. I hope I got her name right. She brought her right back onto the Tyra show to talk about it, to relive that situation. Yes, and so that's on her for her to allow that to happen. That was her whole show. Because she could have sat her, watched that show after that season, and just basically say, I am so sorry this like happened to you. I want to communicate with you. My lawyers are here to go help you. Let's get you a therapist, let's see what we can do.

SPEAKER_05 41:56

Right.

SPEAKER_04 41:57

But then at that point, if if she does that, that's from a business perspective, you're taking accountability, and then that can make you accountable to get sued or to get in trouble and something like that.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

And that's the hard part, right? Right, right. And so that's when she will have to go in there and put it in vague language. Right. So like, I'm sorry, the behavior of the show. Right. Like, you know, you like you keep it like real clean in that direction, just keep it moving. Right, right, right. Um, and that, and you'd be like, you know what? That kind of thing. But the other part is just like it's just unfortunate that she brought her back on the show. Right. To pick that one back up again.

SPEAKER_04 42:39

Right. I wonder why she went back to the show and agreed to it though. You know, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Jesus. Yeah. She would have been probably making at that time seven, seven twenty-five an hour or something back then. You know, like that's like, you know, when that goes on, you're like, you know what, let me see if I have a second chance for me to get on this, like, do this, right? Yeah. Because she could have won that show. She could have. That's a that was the that's the gag, right? Yeah. Because she was like, she was on the she was on the up and up, and she was tearing up. She was. She was. And when that happened, and when they let all that happen, it was like an immediate, it was like they just threw the like the monkey wrench in there. Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:24

It was done. It was done after that.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

Just waiting to see when they have a documentary. Because what it is is right, like Tyra exploited these people, right? They she exploited their trauma, she exploited the things she knew about them, she exploited their dreams on being a model and having success. She dangled it right over their heads, and then they majority of the people never really got what they went there for. And I'm just waiting to see, though, because a lot of the times, you know, it wasn't just Tyra. Right. You got people like, and I'm about to bring it all the way the fuck around, Dr. Phil. Dr. Phil, who was not. Doctor, you know, Ben lost his license, and he exploits people too from their traumas and their family problems, but you don't see, and then he has that ranch up in so and so where they uh there's been sexual, there's been assaults, there's been all types of stuff, but why don't we see a documentary on Dr. Phil?

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Right. But whose production company actually handled Dr. Phil?

SPEAKER_05 44:23

That we don't know, and that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

I know. Okay, y'all got to do the research though. I'm not saying that woman's name.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Was it Oprah? Was it Oprah? Was it Oprah? Because I know they was on the same, whatever for me. Uh something like that. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

I love her a lot.

SPEAKER_04 44:40

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:43

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz, like those shows.

SPEAKER_05 44:49

Oh my goodness, yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

They were they were under that production company.

SPEAKER_05 44:52

Yes. Okay. So I gotta look into that because I think it is interesting that we hear about Tyra. And this is the thing. This is not excusing her, but in her mind, she really thought, I'm putting these girls on.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Right.

SPEAKER_05 45:03

She really thought that. Like she's like, you know, the plus size model, like people that don't look like, you know, the typical skinny white model.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Well, that's when they're starting getting desperate.

SPEAKER_05 45:13

Yeah. Like, well, isn't that how it always started? American Jason Model?

SPEAKER_01 45:16

No, because yeah, next top model was just like people that don't look don't look like the typical model.

SPEAKER_05 45:22

The typical model.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

But then again, when you see any model, they don't look like any type of typical person anyway. But no, I'm just saying is it's that like it's literally a blank canvas. And so that's what's so great about models, because you'd be able to form them any way that you kind of like want them. Like that's what the beauty of it is. And so, like, for her, she's like, Well, let's just pick it up and I'll just put your shit in there. No, she would just throw anything over there, and she's like, We just make it pretty. She did. Yeah, she literally did.

SPEAKER_05 45:53

She cut their hair off and some of the girls after the makeover, though, they was eaten.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

There were.

SPEAKER_05 45:58

They were tearing it up. I'm like, yo, y'all look so much better though. Right. No shade.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

That's the true. That's the true. But when she went to that botched ass dentist to handle that was bad. Right. Then the following season, she did she let the other person have a gap in her tooth.

SPEAKER_05 46:16

Yeah. That was fucked up. That was fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

That was trashy headquarters. That was definitely trashy.

SPEAKER_05 46:23

Loki, there was a little bit of, you know, some oh there was a lot with that show. It was like racist undertones. It was like homophobic undertones. It was like fat phobic under. It was a lot nasty. It was everything for everybody. Everybody could get it.

SPEAKER_04 46:37

But that's what made it so popular. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Cause which is the blackface one.

SPEAKER_04 46:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

That shit was style. That was really fucking.

SPEAKER_05 46:49

I wasn't there for that.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

She did it twice.

SPEAKER_05 46:51

She did it twice. Twice. I know. That's that I was like, I did not watch those. I watched it the earlier season. That was it. But when I saw that shit in the documentary, I was like, what the fuck? Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

And when Jay like saw that happen for the first time, that's when it was something like I'm uncomfortable for that.

SPEAKER_05 47:10

He was very uncomfortable. He was just like, oh And that's and that's the part.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

I was like, what in like 1950s Hollywood are we doing right now? Right. Because they did that all the time back then. 1950s than before. I was just like, Ty, what the fuck is your problem, girl?

SPEAKER_05 47:27

Do you really think that was her idea?

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Fuck no. I don't think that was her idea. I don't think so. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 47:34

I don't think so. But that's that's messy.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

That was like her thoughts.

SPEAKER_05 47:39

After a while, it started to look like the challenges were not even coming from her or Miss J or the J's anymore, period.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

They had the right ass. I really believe that was coming from like someone else, a white man. It was giving was coming from a white man. You remember also though, she was working with Les Moonvest during that time. And we said we're with Les Moonvests right now because he got me too the fuck out of like CBS.

SPEAKER_04 48:01

That makes sense. Do you see what I mean? It doesn't even make sense.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

But yeah, and he was not cool. And so there's like, you know, oh god, that was nasty.

SPEAKER_05 48:11

Yes. And then, you know, of course, the the big, the big blow-up moment, right? That everyone remembers, I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Oh, Miss Tiffany. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:21

Yes. That was really bad.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

It was terrible.

SPEAKER_05 48:25

And I heard that a lot of stuff were cut out because Tyra had said, allegedly, that's what sources say, has said some fucked up shit about her mom and really went in on her.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

So, okay. So this is what I'm kind of thinking on that situation. I knew it was bad. But I also think she was fed the fuck up.

SPEAKER_05 48:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

And the reason was is that because Tiffany showed up the season before.

SPEAKER_05 48:50

And then she came back again.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

And then she came back again. But during that time, though, that whole like that whole organization was helping her and refining her, all the to the point that she when she gets back on the show, she'll be like a hardcore runner runner to actually win. And she invested a lot of time and money into her. Allegedly.

SPEAKER_05 49:14

Allegedly.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

She had like she allegedly invested a lot of time and effort into her. And so for her to be to go through something. Let me just move over there to the letter say that. On Tiffany's side. For her to experience a moment where she knows that she can't read. Which the producers probably already know that she couldn't read.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

Of course they did.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Of course. So they exploited her trauma that she knows she's a a lower level reader and she couldn't get through it. Right? And so, but knocking it from Tyra's side, she's like, I invest all this money in you. Right. But you won't give me what I want right now. You won't sit there and just try to read this. Yeah. I know that you suck at reading.

unknown 50:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

But I need you to do this for the sake of the show to keep it going on. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 50:13

Still coming back to money. But that's what I was just going to say. I was like, do you see? I feel like there's this uh there's something about Tyra that just it's so disconnected from the real world. Like she's not human. And the only human, the only humanly times that you see her is when you're affecting her money. Cause when like that, I felt like either she's an amazing actress, yeah, or or she's just really something really, really got to her. And then when you put it into perspective of like, oh, we invested all this time and money, I'm like, well, that makes sense. That goes back to my argument of like she's so disconnected being in the industry that long that it's like, look at you, the only thing that does get you to that point is money.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

And it's well, we have to think about it. Okay, so putting it aside from with Tyra, let's just say us individuals, right? Like we have someone, we all three of us be like particular someone, whoever that you want to invest in, because you're like, I see a lot of hope in this person. I think that they're gonna go real far. I want them to do really well. And you're like, from the things I've learned, I want to make sure that they'd be able to take those resources out. If we invested a lot of money in those people or take it, introduce them to a lot of people that do a lot of attraction. And if we're at the end, the moment we really need that person, right? I need that person. Shit all over it. Yeah. What is our own personal inner reactions like when that actually happened, right there, right? Would I get mad? For me, I'd be like, this shit is done. Okay, like you gotta go. Yeah. Um, yeah, you know, I'd be like, I had to get to the next part real quick. But there's we had to sit down and think about that though, too, just like to break that down personally. How would we do? For her, she was like the wig and weave, everything fell off. Like it was just like, but she just she was done because she was just like, you know, she turned inhuman at that point. She did. Yeah, but homegirl, Tiffany was like, I'm about to be embarrassed on this camera, and I don't want to sit here and do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:21

So, what a lot of people are saying about that whole situation, that whole blow-up that happened between Tiffany and Tyra is that most people are saying that Tyra came from a caring side of seeing herself within her, especially as you know, a black woman. You don't, she's dark skinned too. You don't see many black models. She was giving Naomi Campbell vibes, like she was really killing it her season. And then she came back. So it was like, you really had a real opportunity. I really fuck with you. I invested money into you, and I see myself in you. And there's not a lot of representation of us, period. And you go and play in my face because you can't read a teleprompter. These other white bitches can't read the teleprompter either, but you don't see them doing anything or acting like that. You know, why don't you just read it? Even if you fuck up, read it, improvise, you know, get cute with it. And I think that's where Tyra was coming from. And that's what a lot of people say too, because that's what she said. That is what she said, and that's where her frustrations came from. Because it was deep, like it felt more than just money. Like it really felt like it was emotional, like there was some emotional shit in there.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

I agree, like 100%. Like, I knew I girl, I dealt with people like that. Where I sit down and be like, I invested all this time. I really want to have all this hope in you. Want to help you or something? Like you just fucked up and just blew it, shut it all over the fucking place right here. I can see it. Like 100. Yeah. Because she had a no door. She she dealt with so many doors like just land in front of her face before she finally got to the big one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because like tired of her day, that was nasty. Oh, yeah, fabulous. She was everything was just gorgeous. Uh-huh. But even in that moment, she was over being overshadowed by who?

SPEAKER_05 54:08

Yeah, you know who.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

I know, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 54:10

And that's the part that kills me too, because it's like she looked great. She looked gorge. She was killing it.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

She was killing it.

SPEAKER_05 54:18

She was killing it. I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Which, if you want to be roll patty, just go back to like the Tyra show when she and her, like I can't.

SPEAKER_05 54:30

Yo, your laugh. I love your laugh. Oh my god. With that scene, I definitely felt a lot of emotion. You have anything you want to say about that?

SPEAKER_04 54:42

No, but I I do want to uh ask a question. Do you think that um the America's Next Top Model uh kind of pushed a lot of negative stereotypes or like even I would say eating disorders? What would you say? Uh there's a lot of people that said that that show condoned a lot of like the I guess that eating disorders and a lot pushed a lot of negative stereotypes, etc.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

I believe that.

SPEAKER_05 55:14

But even the commercials too back then. Like I feel like the commercials pushed that the whole industry, the whole industry, fashion, the magazines, the cover, like all of it. Yeah, they all pushed the TV shows, like they all pushed it back then. Right. That was like the thing. So I can't even just say, is it just America's next time model?

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Was it just the time back then?

SPEAKER_05 55:34

The industry, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Yeah, it's just like the whole industry. But even that's happening right now, though.

SPEAKER_04 55:39

Mm-hmm. You think so?

SPEAKER_01 55:41

Right. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 55:42

Even with like more representation, because I feel like there's been a lot more of like, you know, bigger, bigger people being represented, like uh bigger people, uh, and people of color also like just seeing the uh different types of bodies.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

No, yes. So like in a model world, absolutely. But I think like overall in a more of an entertainment world, there still is not that of like a you know, um, an inclusion. There really isn't because like these companies are still dating. Yeah. You know, like even in social media, you know, like way how algorithms are like like hitting people in the bucket, all these other things, saying, like, oh this person say like other one that like here's like two TikTok stars, a black TikTok star that was really good at doing hip hop, and all of a sudden the white TikTok star sold this person to hip hop and became astronomically famous and stuff like that, versus the black one was still on underground. Right, you know, so those things like happen, it's continuing to happen, it's happening in the underground a lot more than we got to say right now without.

SPEAKER_05 56:52

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

But um over there, like Tyra definitely opened up that door.

SPEAKER_04 56:58

But that's what I'm saying. So, like a lot of these arguments that they say about the show can be still said about other present shows and industry today. So I just feel like, you know, yes, when you want to look at the microscope and you want to look specifically at America's Next Top Model, did it have its absolutely had its issues, right? Right. And the reason why it got so popular and big was because of those same issues that people are now looking at it as like, wow, it's fucked up. But that's what made it as big as it is, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Right. And they were out and loud with it though. Yeah, now it's much more ahead and they don't want to talk about it like that. But they're still thinking the same. They're embarrassed. But you're still dealing with like the the 55 to 60 year old executives are still out there doing the exact same thing, and that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

It's like, you know, so it almost feels like uh Tyra can be seen as the fall guy for I mean, for America's next top model, specifically, but it's a deeper issue, and I feel like it's so easy to see surface level Tyra because she is an issue, she has she is a problem herself. I agree. But I think it's deeper because those same things that we continue to say and and pick on, those those problems still exist in industry to this day. Oh yeah. And and I feel like that's where I feel like the unfairness part of it comes from.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

Oh yeah, yeah, no, I get it, I get it. And like also, I think of it in another in another part though, too. Like for someone like her, like as like as a black woman, though, to a person of color, and for that to stuff happen on her show, it's more weight, basically. There's like other shows that are like, oh that's not a problem. Like simple life, like for instance, the simple life was very, very controversial during that time.

SPEAKER_04 58:51

I'm sure there's a lot of that.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Exploitations and all that stuff, right? Rock of Love, all that shit. All that stuff was yeah, it was very right, it's very like on point on how a lot of those girls were being exploited on those shows.

SPEAKER_05 59:07

But we don't hear anything about that.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

No, they sure don't. They don't like talking about that stuff, right?

SPEAKER_05 59:12

And I don't know, and and that's what I'm saying. Like, I hate to really bring this into it, but it seems like there is a like again a race factor to this because why is Tyra the fall guy? What about all these other people?

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Because they think she's expendable, and that's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 59:26

But even it seemed like too that there was an there was a part that happened in the documentary where UPN network, right? They got a different CEO, right? Right. And they basically called Tyra and told her this is what was said that she had to cut the J's, right? She had to cut them all. Right. And I'm just wondering, like, at that time, do we see something where Tyra's low-key being controlled? Because, like you said, she's expendable, right? And we just don't see those things. So we see her calling the shots, but who's giving her the shots to call?

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Um, we we know. Right. Like Viacom definitely giving the shots to go and do it. Right. Um, but like also because they're like, in order for us to purchase a new season, this is what you have to do. Right. There's always someone that you're gonna like basically have to bow down to.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:17

That's what it showed. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

There was like everything was like falling apart.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:20

Everything was falling apart.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

America's next top model happened now and it's still the same things happen. Then, like basically, I really could see Tyra now would be like, we're no longer gonna be on this show, like on this network, we're gonna take it to Netflix. Or we're gonna or we're gonna put it on tube. We're gonna do something like a little bit different. Yes, yes, oh god, not to be. But like, yeah, it should be like, oh no, we're gonna tube, you know, we're gonna do something else. We want we'll do a YouTube series, right? Right, and people be able to follow that. That'll be like exciting. Yes, like back then, they're like, if it's Viacom, if I've got to be able to do it, what can I tell? Yeah, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:04

Warner brothers, like YouTube back then was not what it is now, definitely not what it is now. So I this is why I think there may be another season. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

It might be, it might be, it might be.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:18

That's what I thought. That's what I thought. Is this PR for the next season? Like, what?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

You know what? She will be ridiculous if she doesn't.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:25

That's what I'm saying. At this point, it's a missed opportunity, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

Well, she probably would do like a global all-stars or something like that. Because I can see her do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:33

I did see that there is one contestant, I forgot her name. She went on an interview and she did say that she has her own theory on why this documentary came out and or why Tyra specifically spoke on it. And it was because on March 11th, which is in a few days, there's another documentary that will be coming out, and it's basically exposing controversial reality TV shows such as Dr. Phil, America's Next Top Model, and all these things. And there's gonna be people talking on it. And rumor has it that Tyra just wanted to get ahead of the PR.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

I wouldn't be a surprise as I'm not gonna do that. I wouldn't be surprised either. Yeah, that sounds just about right. Yeah, she's trying to do a like a face, like, you know, trying to say face clean it up before. Well, we see that on a lot of TV shows. Like a lot of people do that. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:25

So that might be a possibility. I'm not sure, but we'll find out March 11th if we see that documentary.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

I want to watch that documentary because we know what's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:33

Right, hell yeah. Spill the tea. It's crazy. I think it's so wild that we're having this conversation and you used to be in the fashion world too. That's crazy. I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

I still am in some points, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:46

What have you witnessed any like crazy things that the show like exposed when you were working in fashion or no?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

I was from the designer side. Okay, and so like designer and the business side. So everything that I saw was like how I have to like handle as a business. On the model side, it's a completely different totally different ballgame, I'm sure. That's crazy. Because like for me with models, it was just contacting the agency. Right. The model comes down like they do their thing, and they just keep walking.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:17

Yeah, right, right. Okay. Yeah, so the models just went through it. Jesus, I think even now they gotta be fucking crazy. Oh, you know, they're still crazy. They're still crazy. They're still crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

Yeah, that's just like right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Not the times, you know, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Yeah, and that's and that's that's the funny part when people say that shit. Yeah. It's like when they'll sit there and say, Oh, that well, that was the time of day. The thing is, is that that was the time of day to not get caught.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:47

Right, exactly. Period.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Versus what it is now. Today is not easy to get caught. Girl, you get caught in a minute. You might just like you can cancel, or you just say, hey, I did it. Right. Right. Just always keep it. And that's it. I think a lot of people actually prefer you just saying, like, I own it. Right. I I fucking did it. Right. This is it. Sorry. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:09

I mean, I guess I have two final questions. One, can we really blame Tyra?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:17

That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Yes and no.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:21

It's you looking at the camera for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

Sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:26

I feel like I'm in the middle because it's like, yes, because it was her show, but then it's like, for the most part, it didn't seem like she was always calling the shots. It seemed like she was being controlled. Oh, yeah. And I feel like in some sort of way, Tyra can also be a victim, too. Who knows what the hell she went through? 16 being in the industry, like you know what underage, like that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

You're right.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:49

Especially they didn't give a fuck back then, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

And she wasn't, and also like her mom was there a lot with her, like during that period of time. So you know they definitely knew. I believe that Tyra had an extreme amount of time trauma while she was in the industry.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:01

100%, 100%, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

And so, but also, although you had an extreme amount of trauma, does not give you the excuse to put extreme amount of trauma on to other people.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:12

And that's what I was gonna say. Can I blame her? Absolutely, because at the end of the day, how you carry yourself and what you do in the situations that you're in says a lot about you as a person and your character. So I feel like, yes, she had a lot of trauma, but either you could have been the person to break it and make it better, especially having the platform and the power that you had, but instead you chose to repeat a lot of the traumas that you probably went through as a person and as a model. And then the the other reasons why I say no, uh, we can blame her, is because even now, you know, there was so much time between the season one to when the show ended. Was it 2019 it ended or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

2019, because that's when girl, that's when Rio Hora showed up.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:03

Exactly. 2019 to Twitter in 2026. Seven years you had uh even from the show ending to now to to if you're gonna be the bad guy, own that shit. Right, own that shit, be that bad guy, but you're you you you play stupid, you don't take accountability, and then you're like, oh, I didn't know, I didn't know. And I feel like, especially in the time we're in now, since we're gonna talk about the times that we're in, people respect authenticity, whether you're a bad guy or a good guy. People respect the fact that you can just be that instead of being fake. And I feel like it shows, like even now, like she had the opportunity to own that in a way, even in a PR way. She could have, you know, taken some type of accountability, but yet she still chose to not. And I feel like that says a lot about her.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

Yeah, everything happens within the public opinion as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:02

Okay, so my last question did she empower these women or did she destroy them?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

Oh no, she destroyed us. She didn't know. She tore she tore them up.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

She did.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Empowerment comes to what the opportunity is going to be for them as well. She gave them zero opportunity after that. Whitney Harlow, you know, she did her thing. She was real smart. Right. And also Whitney. But those are two. Eva, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:37

Not really in the model.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

But but the the thing is that her production in general had a capability of torture of possible emotional torture amongst these. In distress. In distress, right? Is that the way to do it? That's the way to answer that. That is a possibility that can happen.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:00

Yeah. Well, yeah, I agree. I think we're all on the same page. Yeah, yeah. I don't think she empowered.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:07

She exploited them. Yeah. She empowered herself. Yeah. Everything was through self-gain.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:14

Yes. But also, what did she gain at the end of this?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:17

I'm sure she made a bag. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:19

Well, she made a good bag. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:21

I'm sure she made a bag.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:22

But like in terms of her brand, though.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:25

Oh yeah. Like that's true. Her brand is done.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

She was on the biggest thing she did since that show was fully. But the other one is is also her being on dancing with the stars.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:40

Yeah, like I didn't see much of her. Yeah. After that, like I just saw like she decided to, you know, transition from modeling to being a businesswoman. So and she went to Australia. That's it. Yeah, not even smile. She was like, smile. And that's such a fucking oh. T-shirt room.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

I don't know. I'm just kind of like, I'm I'm still trying to figure out model land. Yeah, right. Right, right. Which I think is I had to take a look at the phone. I think it's totally gone.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:11

Yeah, man. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like she's after that, she's done. All I know is smise. Yeah. But um, this basically concludes our conversation about this. I feel like we covered all the bases of what we we could cover, and that's that. Um, so yes, I mean, for you guys watching, definitely comment your thoughts below. Did you watch the documentary? What do you guys think? What do you guys think about what we said?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:39

You know, all that. Yeah. I am curious because obviously we have a predominantly uh Zeus Network of audience. So I watched it. I was like, I'm curious to know what you guys think. Do you think that like, you know, there's a lot of similarities between like baddies and America's next time model? And I just I I really do see a lot of the similarities and the and the and the critics, like you know what I mean? The criticism behind both. So does the problem still remain? Like, is it an industry problem or is it just a show problem? I mean, I'm curious to know what you guys think.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:11

Do you watch baddies?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:13

What? Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:35

That's actually really funny. That's the that's the clip that's the clip. That's the regular.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:47

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:56

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:58

I don't know. Like, you know, that show. Say it, say it, say it.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:03

You know, the only thing I heard about that show was that the girls were like over at the W Hotel in LA and they trashed that place out like nobody's business.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

The whole time.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:13

Like a couple, yeah, it was like a couple of weeks ago. A few weeks ago. Makes sense. Is that at the hotel or was it at the Los Angeles Convention Center? Something didn't work out. Let's just say that. But that's the thing. That's when I heard about baddies. I didn't even know. I was like, I mean when I first heard, I was like, You mean bad girls' cup is kind of bad? Like, I was like, bro, I can't wait to see that show. Yeah. I heard bad. I'm like, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:33

I don't know what that's about.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:34

Yeah, yeah. So that's Zeus. Yes. Okay. Yes. And Natalie.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:40

Yes. Natalie. Natalie, that was on VGC. Like, she produces that show of batteries now. So it's like I know. Right, right, exactly. So that was so funny. Because I only reason why I asked you is because I was gonna ask you, do you see any similarities between that and America's X Home Model the same way she mentioned?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:01

But if you don't you don't watch it, so what is it, like video hope vixen's or something?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:05

Like, what like well I'm just trying to find out, like video vixens, I'm probably video vixens.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:15

Easy for the TV. So basically Baddies is essentially a reality TV show where young women, majority of them, are sometimes rappers, Instagram models, like you know, influencers. And they go on the show, and yeah, it's like a seven to twelve women on there. And of course, everybody has Beef and they fight, and they also do different bookings and things like that. That's essentially it.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:41

It's it's like a fast, think of uh a fast-paced TikTok version of girls fighting, pretty girls fighting, and then having very uh surface level conversations, but it's a lot of drama and it's very fast-paced. So, you know how you're addicted to like the scrolling and stuff like that? So I feel like that's the same stimulation you get from the show. It's like a lot of bad bitches fighting and surface level, so it's really nothing in depth, but uh it's just so fast-paced and so much drama that you just kind of just become addicted to it. It's kind of like that. It's like there's beef. Yeah, well, no, they got money, but it's oh they have production, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:21

They got they got production, they have production, they definitely do.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:24

Okay, that I will say, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:27

It's like love and hip hop, but it's baddies, young, you know, younger women.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:31

Just not as poise, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:32

Yeah, I mean, just more ratch. That's poise.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

You think love and hip hop was poise?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:36

Oh, when you watch this, nah, it's not poise. It's it, it's you know what it is. Love and hip hop, they did cut out certain things though. This, they leave everything in.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:44

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:45

So that's the thing. Because at BH1, you know, like they cut out certain things, but this, no, they leave everything in.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

Okay, I gotta call contact the girls and say we gotta watch the chat.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Try and episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:56

I might be able to hang hang on for like 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:58

No, I think you might be getting, I think you'll get hooked. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:03

If you like it on the next time, you might like, yeah. Because I'm telling you, like, a lot, that's what I'm saying. Like, I'm coming from a place where I never seen America's next top model, but I watched it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:14

But you watched Batgirls Club, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:16

I did watch Batgirls Club. Okay, yeah, that was it. That was it. And it was great. And I feel like Bad Girls Club was its own thing because it's like it had its own great production. I just really liked Bad Girls Club. But I like, I don't know. I just feel like, like I said, I see so much similarities, and I just don't get it. Like the same people that are criticizing Tyra, but y'all not criticizing Natalie Nunn. You know what I mean? Like, it's just and they are criticizing her. They are, but there are some people that pick and choose, and that's what I'm saying. Like, it's you, you, it's I don't know. I don't think it's a time thing, I think it still exists. It's still happening. Yeah, underground, underground.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

Like, but now it's on the app.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:59

Yeah, now it's on just that word.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:01

That's the part. That's the part. Once you find it on the app and you scream it on the television, then you'll see it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

But yeah, it's so funny.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:13

All right, well, right, right. So, Nicholas, tell the people where they can find you. Where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:20

Oh my god, so this is that. So you can find me uh culturally incompetent. Okay, this is how you spell it. C-U-L-T-U-R-R-A-L-L-Y. On Instagram. I don't need to talk about how find the show on Spotify, Apple, Podcast, or wherever you listen to the podcast.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:48

Okay, amazing. Is that it? That's all people that's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:52

Yeah, just go on there.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:54

Have a great like, follow the show. Yeah, guys, go check it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:58

It's very educational. Definitely you enjoy the moment. Yes, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:03

Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:04

I'm not petty headquarters though.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:08

No, but I like your totally different vibe. I did listen to some uh what the ones on YouTube. I was like, okay, mister.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

I know it's a little bit more diary C more than petty headquarters. But the thing is, is that it's gonna be even more fun shortly. So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:25

New content. It's more fun, okay. Yes, yes. So definitely check that out, guys, and check out his podcast and tune in. But with that being said, where can they find you? You guys can find me on Instagram, that's J-E-S-S-I.stranger, and where can they find you, Tiana? You guys can find me on Instagram at it's.tiana lock. You guys can find us on Instagram at the petty headquarters. You can find us on YouTube and all podcast platforms, as well as Patreon at the Petting Headquarters. With that being said, this was your weekly dose of mess. Say it with us, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Say it with us.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:01

This is the okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:03

All right, one, two, three.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:05

This was your weekly. Okay, hold on. This is our weekly dose of mess.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:10

This was your weekly dose of mess. Okay, here we go. Let's do it. Okay, ready? One, two, three. This was your weekly dose of mess.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:18

We caught it. We made it happen. There we go. That's a wrap. Yeah, we'll make it up. Yeah, we'll see you later.