Ep. 6: Grape Banter & Blind Tasting

A summer thunderstorm turns into a lively crash course on how sommeliers blind taste and why your brain’s expectations can trick you. We break down reductive and oxidative notes, decode Riesling sweetness myths, and show how dessert wines like ice wine and botrytis bottles get their signature flavors. 
• recounting a sommelier class lineup and what blind tasting reveals 
• explaining reduction and oxidation aromas and how they show up together 
• unpacking extended barrel aging and why puncheons change oak impact 
• walking through the deductive tasting method step by step 
• separating aromatic vs non-aromatic whites with Torrontés as the anchor 
• correcting the “Riesling is always sweet” misconception and how to shop dry 
• clarifying German terms like trokken and Prädikat categories 
• comparing ice wine with late harvest botrytis wines and why noble rot is rare 
• using acid, alcohol and tannin to narrow grape and region 
• spotting age through color change at the rim and meniscus 
Please make sure to go ahead and drop us a follow on Instagram from the Sky Down Wines. 
If you want to book that, feel free to go to our uh talk page and book there, or give us a call or show up in person here at the farm. 

Transcript

Lightning, Rain, And Movie Night

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Alright, we are live. We are a live. We are live. We are a live.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

I mean, I almost got struck by lightning, so I'm lucky to be alive.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

You did. We are recording this. Welcome to Wine Stories presented by From the Sky Down. By the way, we are recording this on a Thursday. And it is raining hard outside.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Got a classic old summer thunderstorm going on.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

A little bit less common here in the northwest. But maybe you can detect the faint sounds of rain on the building.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

I don't know that Max and picked that up too well, but hopefully we get a nice big boom of thunder. Yeah. Do you get struck by lightning this this morning, Devin?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

No. Pretty close though. They say lightning doesn't strike twice. There you go. But it was on both sides of you as you're driving here. Yeah. So as I was driving in, I drove through the thunderstorm. It looks like it was actually moving slow because it looks like it's caught up to us now.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

And as I was driving, the lightning kept appearing like just behind me and to my right and left. So it felt like it was chasing me as I was driving. Oh wow. And the thunder was only about a second after each flash of light. Okay. So it was it was pretty close. That's like a mile away then? Yeah, I think it's usually about a mile a second. I I think that was not completely accurate. Okay. I just heard that. Yeah, me too. Definitely. I don't know. We could we could do some math on on the pod, but I'm not I'm not in the mood.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Yeah, I'm not gonna look it up right now.

unknown 1:58

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Speed of sound at ground level is like is like 700 miles an hour. Oh yeah. Something like that. So if you want to go backwards from there.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

That's pretty wild though. Yeah, it is pouring rain. It was pretty it was pretty hot yesterday, day before. It's been pretty nice out in general. And then we got this summer thunderstorm happening right now. It's crazy. So we're gonna figure out what we're gonna do with for movie night tonight. I'm not sure if we're gonna have it on the lawn or if we're gonna bring it under the patio lights.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

That's a great question. Yeah. If there's any lightning later this evening, we will have to do it undercover. Yeah, for sure. Um however, it is looking like it will clear up. So we'll have to see what what to do. Too bad there's not a thunderstorm scene in Ratatouille.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

I know, right? Well, there's a pretty big rain scene. There is there is a storm in the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

It's gonna be sunny at 2 p.m.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Alright, let's go. Let's go sun at 2 p.m.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Wow. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

I love that. Welcome to Washington. One time when I was a kid, we had hail, thunder, lightning, sunshine, and snow all in one day.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, I think I had a day like that growing up here.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

It was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

And a rainbow.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

And a rainbow. Yeah. I think that was like in February. It was a February or something like that. It's kind of wild.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, I remember there was a crazy winter storm back in 2008 that was pretty wild. There was the freezing rain that came on top of a really big snow. And so there was about a foot of snow with a quarter inch thick sheet of ice on top of it. That's fun. So you'd walk around and stamp through the ice and it would crunch underneath you, and you'd leave like exact boot-shaped holes in the crust as you can.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

That's pretty cool, though. Not fun to play in, but you know, it's cool nonetheless.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Actually, we did play in it. We threw the ice shards at each other. Oh, fun. There you go. I do love some extreme weather. Yeah. Uh it's it adds some spice.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Yeah. It is pretty

Sommelier Class Blind Tasting Recap

SPEAKER_02 4:17

cool.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Well, yesterday it was pretty warm, and we had the employee psalm class. So our little psalm training that we do every week. And basically what we do is we we blind taste with each other and we try and learn about the context of wine as a whole, as a group, and so we can just better educate ourselves in the the world of wine. And so we did a bunch of blind tasting yesterday, which is pretty fun. We had a good mix of things. We had Gewürzstrominer from Alsace that one of the employees brought, and that was a good find. The From the Sky Down, Saving Blanc, that no one was ready for, but we had it.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Ready.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

It is kind of fun to blind taste your own wines because it just gives you a different perspective completely on the wine. It makes you analyze it without any, you know, any like context of label or region, great variety, any of that.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Expectations are also a big component as well as huge, yeah. You look for certain flavors because you expect certain flavors, you experience a certain level of quality because you're expecting a certain level of quality. Really difficult to get objective view of wine without pine tasting.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

So that was pretty fun. And then we had a what 2014 cab from Washington State that was barrel-aged, so it was like it was released probably like two years ago, which is wild. And then you brought a 2013 single barrel Syrah. Yes. Which was really interesting because I felt that was very roxy. You know, it reminded me of the rocks, had a little funk or a lot of funk on the nose. And then I mean the palette was very very approachable. I liked the the palette more than I did the nose.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

The nose was really funky. And I mean, I will say there was some

Reduction And Oxidation Demystified

SPEAKER_00 6:32

reduction on the first pop, but unlike a lot of wines with reduction, this didn't really go away after it opened up. There was a residual funk that kind of stayed there that was slightly vegetal, slightly fungal, very savory. Yeah. And on the edge of being almost pure fault in terms of scent, it was it was very uh stinky smelling.

unknown 6:59

This wine.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah, I thought it was actually more it was kind of weird because I thought it was oxidated, like almost cooked. And but then there was also some reduction, so I was just like very confused. And those that don't know what reduction is or reductive wines are, essentially it is you experience it in the sense of like in small amounts, like flintiness, like river rock, matchstick, flintstone, but in large quantities it can kind of smell like rot rotting cabbage or rotten eggs. So not that you know that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

There were there were reductive notes in the beginning, there were also oxidative notes throughout the wine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah. I mean, in large amounts, reductiveness is not super attractive, but in small amounts, most simoliers really love the reductive sort of smell and flavor. I do, I know that for sure. And there's some great varieties that tend more towards that, you know, Pinot being one, Syrah, Malbec, Chardonnay, those all tend to go reductive pretty easily for the most part, which is kind of interesting. And what usually reductive wine making is the process in which you do not let the wine touch any sort of oxygen post-fermentation. After the fermentation is complete, you completely separate it from oxygen using a bunch of things. You can use head space in any sort of vessel and make sure it's completely closed off from any oxygen inside the tank or in the barrel using utilizing CO2, dry ice, or SO2, which is sulfur, that all help take away or protect it rather from oxygen. So it kind of that's the winemaking, reductive winemaking process. And in turn, it can make a wine kind of reductive. And so, usually for most someliers, when they're blind tasting or tasting something and it's a little reductive, has a sort of mineral matchsticky sort of aromatics to it. It's usually in a Assam will assume that this is a quality wine, the winemaker has attention to detail and is trying to separate the wine from oxygen. So it's seen it's seen as more of a quality thing. A lot of high-quality bottles tend to be a little reductive.

Long Barrel Aging With Puncheons

SPEAKER_00 9:42

So to the point of oxidation and extended barrel aging, I think both of those aged wines were interesting examples of extended barrel aging. Because the 13 did spend 13 Syrah. It spent 33 months in 500 liter French oak punchins. Wow. So almost three years of barrel aging. 50% of it was a well it was only two barrels. They made two barrels of it. Okay. And one of them was a 100% new French oak 500 liter punching. The other one was a used French oak punch. Okay. So it was a split between those two.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Let's see.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

And punchins are barrels that are double the size of a traditional barrique.

unknown 10:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

So there's a there's actually should be less oak impact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yeah. Just because more surface area or larger volume. It's kind of like diluting something, right? In a way. And so it's not going to have that much of an aggressive punch of new French oak flavors.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

They're shorter and stouter barrels, but bigger. So you end up with a pot belly looking barrel almost. Which results in, you know, right, larger volume, closer to a sphere, right? Which is going to result in less surface area to volume ratio. Yeah. Whereas the opposite style of barrel would be like a cigar style style barrel. What what would you call those officially?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Cigar barrels? I call them cigar barrels. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Cigar barrel. Longer and skinnier.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

I don't know if they had you play with those little cubes. Yeah, you had to make little shapes like rectangles with cubes to as a good symbol of area when you're trying to like look at surface like uh what is it? Radiant.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

It's not the volume displacement game. Or no. No.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Or the shape in the make different rectangles and they say try to make the rectangle that holds the most cubes with the uh shortest perimeter.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

What's what is the perimeter called? Not the not the circumference on a rectangle. I forget what that's called. The outside area, outside edge.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Diameter?

unknown 11:58

No.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

That's also a circle.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Oh yeah, it's a circle.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

It's a reason why we're not mathematicians.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Yeah, it's been a while since I took any sort of geometry.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

So the way to use the most cubes most inefficiently to fill a space, and you'd result in quite a large surface area to volume ratio was a long and skinny rectangle. Okay. Because you couldn't fit much in between the area on the outside. But the closer you got to a square, which is the optimal way to get the most volume within a certain surface area. So that that that's kind of how my brain always remembers these volume things, is from that little exercise.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah. The same goes for like a sphere. Closer you get to a sphere, the more prime the ratio is. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

I just eyeball it, man. You know?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Hey, that's why you're the artist here.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, I'm a there's a reason why I'm a smollier. I don't really do math. That is a stereotype of smolliers, though, that we avoid math all the time.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

And we're terrible at it. I mean, you have to know how many bottles, cases per barrel, and how many bottles per large format bottle.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Well, for winemakers, yeah. Not for smolliers necessarily. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

They just need to know does that glass look full? Yeah. Yeah. Is that glass? I mean, I ball that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

There is a bit of budgeting involved a little bit, depending on you know what you're in charge of as a smolier. Ah, yes. But you know, PLs sometimes I was in charge of not overspending on my budget and doing the best I can with my budget and the highest quality wines, you know, within the wine, what the wine shop could afford. Sure. But that's about it. You know, nothing crazy. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah. Very basic. Well, fortunately, there's no math involved in a very common tool that Somaliers required to learn. The deductive tasting method.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Indeed. That is a method that we use for blind tasting. So if whoever's listening, if you enjoy blind tasting or are interested in what it's about and how sommelier is blind taste, we're gonna go over it right now.

Deductive Tasting Like A Detective

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Welcome to a crash course into Psalm Level 1. Deductive. Deductive tasting. With our your hosts, Devin and Ian.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Hello. Hello. Indeed. Says, yeah, so one thing when you're blind tasting is you're being a detective and you're picking up breadcrumb clues along the way. Each clue has to match with each other, and the common denominator results is what your guess would be. So there are some contextual knowledge that things that you do have to know. Like what is a typical Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand versus Sanserre Loire Valley, aka France? What what are those taste like and how are they different? Same with a bunch of other different great varieties, like you know, Chardonnay. There's there's aromatic whites and there's non-aromatic whites. It's one of the easiest ways to kind of you know split things up and deduce. But the first thing that you usually deduce is color. So if something is like a pale straw or pale lemon sort of color, pretty see-through, then it's probably not gonna be something that's had a whole lot of oak impact or malolactic fermentations, such as Chardonnay, Roussan, Marson, Vionier. Gewürzcheminer actually has a more of a sort of an orange hue to it, I feel like, or a lot more golden in color. So that you're already deducing based off of that, and then also aromatics, is it jumping out at you, or is it pretty subdued? You know, like the non-aromatic great varieties would be Pinot Gris, slash Pinot Grigio, Alberino, Gruner Veltliner, Chardonnay. Chardonnay, yeah. And in some cases, Shenon Blanc, but Shenon can be aromatic too sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Alberinio and Chablis, you know, you can get that very zesty break. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Yeah. And you're kind of working with a certain amount of grapes, really. For example, you know, blind tasting someone on a skin contact, Shannon Blanc, or something weird, obscure like that, is not something you usually blind taste.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

No, it's not. And fortunately, when you're using the deductive method, typically the context is within what we call typical wines. Yeah. It's like stereotyping the great variety. Exactly. I I like to call it categorization. Yeah. And you're narrowing things down based on what potential category could this wine be in based on its category, its its characteristics. It's kind of like narrowing down suspects for a crime. Were they there? Yeah. Did they have motive? Indeed. Did they have motive? Did they have the means? Yeah. So kind of an interesting exercise there. And I just wanted to quickly touch back on aromatic varietals. When we say non-aromatic, we don't mean it doesn't smell. Right. Um, most wines you you go ahead and nose that glass, and you're going to get some sort of aroma. In Chardonnay, you might get a hint of malolactic or from the barrel impact or some fruit. Yeah. Fruit notes is not indicative of being aromatic. Yeah. Aromatic varietal typically has a stronger, stronger, stronger floral component, as well as potentially some funkier fruits, like tropical fruit could be an aromatic component.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Like a New Zealand Sab Blanc really jumps out of the glass at you.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Um, those are typically only found at those aromatic varietals. Yeah. Um, fruit notes you can find in every varietal. Yeah. Typically, apples and pears are common in non-aromatic. Yeah.

Aromatic Grapes And Torrontés

SPEAKER_01 18:38

And star fruit.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

A little bit of citrus sometimes, too.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

I find star fruit all the time in non-aromatic grape varieties, especially shard. But yeah, and the aromatic grape varieties are like Torantes from Argentina. Devin, you've had Torantes a lot more often than I have. Yes. Do you care to explain your view, your experiences of the aromatics of that grape?

SPEAKER_00 19:01

So Torantes was first introduced to me with the comparison of old lady perfume. Grandma's house, grandma's cushions. I found that not to be entirely the case, although I do see the comparison. Some people say soapy. Yeah, it's like a very floral soap, like dove soap almost. It's not soapy like cilantro is soapy to some people. Okay. It's definitely more of like a potpourri, like very intense floral, but in a kind of fruity floral way. And it smells kind of like a perfume. So there's that sense of it being perfumed, and a lot of people's experience with scents has to do with soap, so that's why they're probably comparing it to that. And a lot of soaps still hold on to that flowery, perfumed scent that people might associate with an older generation.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

So it does have a very strong, typical, flowery, perfumed nose. It's pretty, it's pretty easy to identify in a tasting, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Kind of like that cat pee, peepi duchette, if you will. Gooseberry is gooseberry for Sauvignon Blanc, especially New Zealand.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

I would say it's very similarly identifiable. Not to say those two scents are similar, but that it stands out to a similar degree of intensity in the wine. But I have had a couple that are not as intense. But they still have the floral composition and the quality of the florals leaning more towards perfume. Not necessarily rose water, but different kinds of florals, because rose can be in other wines as well. So it definitely indicates to me Tarantes. And it does have a higher ath acidity. It's it's pretty dry typically as well. And I find the taste actually really nice. I really enjoy the flavor of Tarantes. The nose can you can give or take sometimes. Yeah.

Riesling Sweetness Myths And Labels

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Can we talk about Riesling real quick? Yeah. I was just thinking about this. Like, it's an aromatic white grape variety. It has that petrol note, it's very floral, can have pear notes every now and then as well. But I feel like it's a very misrepresented grape variety, specifically in Washington State. Because I get so many times I get like a guest coming through the tasting room, and they expect all Rieslings to be sweet. Which in my experience has not been the case. Riesling can be sweet. You can have it off dry, or you can have it have it dessert sweet, medium sweet. You can have the whole spectrum of sweetness, even completely bone dry, with Riesling. And some of my favorite Rieslings are the bone-dry ones.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Yeah, I do enjoy a dry Riesling, and I think that. Depending on people's perspective andor their diets, they might have a very narrow view of Riesling. Yeah. Fortunately for myself, when at my start in the wine industry was over at Chateau Saint-Michel, which was at one point the largest winery in the state and the third largest in the country. They were originally gained uh their claim to fame was originally Riesling. And they actually made a huge variety and still do make a huge variety of Riesling. Yeah. Everywhere from extremely dry, Lee's aged Riesling to those are fun. Yeah, I love those. I still have a couple bottles. I should bring one in sometime. Hook a brother up all the way up to syrup, basically. Dessert wine, late harvest dessert Riesling. And yeah. It tastes like nectar. I always picture ambrosia from the Greek myths of the gods' favorite food. That literally it tastes like if honey, what honey in your mind would taste like in a dream, like in a fantasy. It's it's beautiful. It's nectar of the gods. It is. And you can put that on ice cream. Yeah, for sure. It is, it is so sweet. And something people don't necessarily realize about dessert wines is it means that it is made to pair with dessert. And yeah, you can have it as a dessert on its own. But for wine pairing, the wine needs to be sweeter than what you're eating. Yep. So these Rieslings are sweeter than ice cream. They are they are sweet.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

So you can either pair them with that or pair them with something extremely zesty and spicy and fun. And I wouldn't necessarily do that with dessert Riesling, but in the context of where we live, definitely certain populations that have you know a lot more spice in their diet are going to be drinking typically off-dry to medium sweet Riesling more often for their dinner pairings.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

And sometimes that can narrow one's perspective. If you are shopping for wine to have with dinner, then it's not really wrong to be seeking that out. However, if you're looking to expand your wine tasting perspective and looking to explore the wine outside of that food pairing context, if you only ever eat spicy food, I guess, then dry riesling is really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah. And some people are confused on how to shop for a dry Riesling, especially if it's from Germany. So one sort of trick I have is looking at the alcohol content of the bottle that you're looking at. So if it says Trokken on it, T-R-O-C-K-E-N Trokken, that is a German label for their labeling laws. It's going to be sort of on the dry end, but trokken is also a spectrum. So it's not always going to be completely dry. Sometimes it'll be off dry. But a quick look at the alcohol content on the bottle. If it is above 11%, it's going to be dry. You know, if it's like 9% or 10%, still might be a little residual sugar in there. But look for the bottles that are around 11% or more for a dry German Riesling. I will say that's not necessarily the case for domestic Rieslings. Just because I've had some that are like 13% where there was still a lot of sugar in it. So on for domestic Rieslings, just look for the ones that say dry Riesling on it. They're usually going to they're usually going to label it and say that it's dry.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

It is interesting with German wine because they can have many different labels, but a lot of them don't mean the sweetness. They usually mean the quality level of the wine.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

You have cabinet, which is kind of your entry level of Pratikatzfein.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Um, then spotlase, Auslasa, then beer and Auslasa.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Which I forget. Is that one a sweetness indicator, beer and oslasa, or is that just another quality?

SPEAKER_01 26:03

That is a sweetness indicator. Then you have trokken beer and ausschlesa as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Which or you can have dry trokken beer and auslasa.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah. And basically it's the how they do it is they weigh the must, and it's not really a direct sugar calculation.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Yes, and the trokken in trockin beer and oschlasa is not referring to dry wine. It's referring to dry berries. Yes. And that actually means extra sweet berries. So a lot more potential alcohol. So generally those wines are not made completely dry because they would be very, very high alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Yeah, yeah. Trokken beer and Auschlesa is usually a, or you can say TBA for short, trocken beer and Auschlesa. But yeah, it's usually a very, very sweet dessert wine. Yes. Yeah. Which they are delicious.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Then ice wine is in a similar sweetness level typically.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yeah. Ice wine is made a little bit differently. It has to be frozen on the vine itself.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

It's actually fascinating.

Dessert Wines, Ice Wine, Noble Rot

SPEAKER_00 27:00

I've tried very high-end late harvest botrytist Riesling side by side with ice wine. And it's fascinating how much the treatment of those grapes harvest method and fermentation practices affected the flavor profile of those wines. It wasn't just sweetness difference. It was a distinct difference in flavor profile. Yeah. For example, the ice wine was a lot more floral, light, and very feminine almost. And then the late harvest Riesling, which is heavily botrytis, typically the dried berries is dried out from noble rot botrytis. I believe we've mentioned it before on the pod.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yeah, if we haven't really talked about noble rot or botrytis, we probably should a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

We'll swing back to that in just a second.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Basically, these berries are shriveled up, they look like raisins. And so in those late harvest Rieslings, that would be maybe similar to trockin beer and oshlasa, although that that variety that classification is also very high quality because it is single berry select, basically, where they're picking out the best berries of those bunches. But basically, you're going to get the raisonated flavors. They're going to come through in the final product. And that results in a deliciously sweet but slightly more caramelized flavor, a little bit more brown sugar. You are getting honey notes from that. That honeysuckle as well. Yeah. But it is a darker wine. It's a little bit more amber in color. And it also has a deeper, more roasted flavor profile versus ice wine, which is very fresh. Ice wine is harvested in either the early, early hours of the morning or late at night after three days of consecutive freezing below 32. And those grapes are then taken directly to the press and lightly pressed to get the concentrated juice out while some of the water content is still frozen within the berries. So it's a very delicate process. It's done by hand. And that results in a much lighter or floral wine because you're not heavily extracting those berries. You are lightly, gently pressing them. And so you get that first run, free run juice that has been concentrated by freezing. And so you it results in this kind of really beautifully sweet but floral wine.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

So back to botrytis.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Botrytis. AKA noble rot. It sort of looks like gray rot sometimes, although gray rot is bad, and you don't want that. Any sort of mold or rot in a grape is bad, except for botrytis, which adds a lot of character.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, let's let's quickly just just stem any bad feelings about something called noble rot in your wine. So I people usually like you think, oh, fungus in my wine. That sounds gross. Yeah, it normally is. So most funguses or mold on grapes is not a good thing. So generally, if you see grapes that look a little fuzzy, I wouldn't recommend experimenting, although that is how people found out about this stuff to begin with. Anyway, back to you, Ian.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Well, botrytis needs a certain very specific climate in order to become botrytis. There are many people, even like tenured winemakers, that will see rot on a grape and say, Oh, that's botrytis. It is not, usually. It is very rare to have botrytis. You need humid, misty mornings and really dry, sunny afternoons. You also need bees around to kind of puncture the grape skins, and they will actually suck out a lot of juice, which will concentrate that sugar and resonate the fruit a whole lot more. And this is all done on the vine itself. And as you can imagine, uh botrytis wines cannot be made every single year because it needs a certain type of weather pattern to actually happen. So in Bordeaux, this is why the highest end wines made with botrytis, usually sauterne, are so expensive, is because they're not guaranteed to make wine every year. You know, some years if they don't get the botrytis, or if it turns a gray rot, or if it doesn't rot at all, they'll just dump the grapes on the on the floor. You know, they'll pick them, they'll just, you know, dump them all. And so you need a very specific sort of weather pattern in a specific year to actually do them. So it can become tricky. I know that there are some people like JM Sellers here in Washington State that make a semion that is a late harvest semion. It is modeled after the sauteran wines of Bordeaux, and think he sources it from Stillwater Creek.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah, in Royal Slope. And so they can get botrytis sometimes. He doesn't make it every year, he only makes it in certain years, and it is very delicious.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

There are many areas of Columbia Valley that actually can get the climate for botrytis. And it it makes some beautiful wines, really, really enjoyable wines. Yeah. I've had the pleasure of trying some late harvest viognier, and it was if it was botrytis, it was very lightly botrytist. But that was really delicious. I've had some late harvest semillones as well. Yeah. And even a late harvest mascat.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Nice, yeah. I've made a late harvest viognier before, and that was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

I think they're really delightful to try some wines that maybe aren't commonly done in that method. They can be super delicious. Yeah. Beignier has some great floral notes, so does muscat. Semillon has really interesting, obviously, those honeyed, waxy uh sensations. So all of those aromas and flavors really lend themselves nicely to a sweet expression, similar to Riesling.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

The Wirchtraminer as well can be quite nice as a late harvest. Are there any other grapes you can think of that would be fun to try as a like a late harvest sweet expression?

Late Harvest Curiosities And Rhône Whites

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Ooh, a late harvest wine, like an esoteric one. Ooh, that's a great question. I know that the Margaret River in Australia does some crazy grape varieties that are esoteric, but I just can't remember which ones they are. I think Mueller-Turgau would be fun, which is an esoteric grape of Germany. Uh one of the lesser-known grapes. It's a white wine, and so that one would be pretty fun.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

One of the few grapes that grows well in the Puget Sound AVA.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it does. Late Harvest Roussan would be pretty wild. It gets a ton of sugar. That would be interesting. So that one would be fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

I love those Rhone whites. They're really fun wines. Yeah. I need to drink more of them.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

And they're very vast. I mean, there are so many different great varieties in the Rhone Valley that can be made. Like for whites, you have your your you know, usual suspects, like Viognier, Marson, Roussan. And then you also have Grenache Blanc and Pickpool Blanc that are extremely acid forward and very lean and lower ABVs. And then you have Claret, which is spelled C-L-A-I-R-E-T-T-E, which is usually made in a sparkling component. They usually make that in a sparkling method champagne. Yeah. And then they also have like Picard N is really good. That's also really lean and mineral forward and high acid. And then you have Grenache Gris, which is fun. It's a mutation of Grenache Noir and Grenache Blanc, where it's Grenache Gris, sort of like Pinot Gris in a way. So the Gris comes from gray. And because the juice when you press it is all gray juice, because there are both white grapes and also black grapes on the same cluster. And so it's a basically natural mutation that happens, which is really fun. Grenache Gris is also very fresh and acid forward.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

I tried a Grenache Gris recently. That was actually quite interesting. Really had some unique flavors. Although I will say maybe it was my brain because it said gris in the name. I did get some similarities to like a Pinot Gris. Not Alto LJ Pinot Gris. It was like more of a fruitier Pinot Gris, but I got fruit cup.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

I am not sold on the varietal yet. I have to try more.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yeah. It's a fun one.

Acid, Alcohol, Tannin, And Region

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Just to quickly get back to our crash course on blind tasting and the deductive method. So once you've established whether a grape is or the wine is aromatic or non-aromatic, there's a couple other steps you want to run through as well. Some main components to look for are alcohol level, acid, and tannin.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

So you're not going to be paying attention to tannin with white wines. Um but alcohol level and acid are huge in finding out where your wine is from. High acid generally helps you narrow down grape type and also region. Some grapes are known for producing higher acid wines, some are not. Merlot is usually kind of medium acid. Converged shamer also medium, medium acid. And then some other grapes like you know Sauvignon Blanc, higher acid riesling, high acid. Yeah. So you can use that to kind of figure out a little bit of where your grape is grapes are, but also in the old world, aka Europe, you're going to get a little bit more of a higher or more acid dominant profile in the wine. And in a new world wine or you know the Americas and Australia, you're going to get a wine with maybe slightly less acid due to the heat and more of a fruit focus wine. And also higher alcohol. So typically when you when you lose acid, you're gaining an alcohol in those wines.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Same with Grenache. I mean, Grenache tends to be really high alcohol wherever it's grown, pretty much, if it's grown to phenolic ripeness, which is pretty interesting. And so when you deduce these things, you're again being a detective, find the breadcrumbs, you're looking for clues. Like Cabernet Sauvignon typically tastes like black currant, cedar, a little bit of mint leaf, and then some new French oak profiles, like you know, vanilla bean, cinnamon stick, nutmeg, and clove, and then Syrah, you're looking at blackberries, black pepper, cured meats, gamey notes, sometimes a little mineral, depending on where it's from, because it can be very fruity if it's made in made domestically in the US. Can be very fruity as well in Australia, where they call it Charez. But in the Northern Rhone, it could be extremely meaty and bacon fatty and very peppery.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Very dark. And as a typical rule, as you're saying, it's kind of less fruity in its its French expressions. That's kind of a loosely a general rule for some rape varieties, but mostly Bordeaux varieties and Syrah and other maybe maybe some yeah, I'd say Syrah.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

And Mouvedra, but Grenache can be fruity.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah, Grenache can be fruity. Lower quality Pinot Noirs from Burgundy can have a lot more fruit forward components like cherry.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

That is true. However, they'll still have a good amount of minerality, but that you could probably confuse a lower quality burgundy for potentially a larger production volume, Oregon Pinot.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Yeah. And usually the lower quality burgundies it translate into just a higher production in general.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don't think you'd get it confused for something from California, California Pinot. I think that those have a different fruit profile that's a lot softer that you get from burgundy. Burgundy tends to have a higher acid profile even if it is fruity. Yeah. So I think you'd be able to deduce that. But Oregon and Burgundy, you could definitely get mixed up in certain areas.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

You'd have to really know what kinds of minerality and mushroomy funk are you getting and which one is influenced by Pacific Northwest climate versus burgundy climate.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Yeah, and then you have the grapes like Nebbiolo that will be from Barolo or Barbaresco, usually, or somewhere in Piemont, a longay area. And that is usually the color is very, very pale, and it's garnet, like red brick garnet, and then it smells like tar and roses, which is such a weird combination. And then it'll have extremely high acid and extremely high tannins as well. And so the color, because it's so see-through and it's so pale, like even more pale sometimes than a Pinot Noir would be. But the tannin structure and the acidity will surprise you for sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

And then you get to another point in the deductive

Spotting Age By Color Shift

SPEAKER_00 40:35

method, which is determining age. Yeah. And especially I wanted to piggyback off of your Nebbiolo conversation, since that's a really good example for a wine that due to the requirements of the typical region, which in this case is Barolo and Barbaresco in Piedmont, they are required to age for a certain amount of years. Yeah. I think it's five years past vintage.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

It depends on you're talking about Barolo or Barbaresco. They have different laws.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

That's very fair. But there is a several years of aging required. And typically their aging methods there end up in a slight amount of oxidation, which causes color change.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

And typically you don't really it doesn't the wines don't taste overly oxidated. The grapes can take it because of their high tannin content. But the color does change. And you end up with uh kind of a if you hold a wine glass in your hand with a tasting pour, a smaller amount of wine, and you kind of put it at an angle over a blank white sheet of paper or a white background, that little layer where the wine kind of disappears on the edge of the glass, the meniscus layer, as we call it, you're going to see a color change there. And it's going to go from the core of the wine, and you might see the wine turn a little bit more brown or orange. That's an indicator of age. If it goes from ruby to kind of an orange or garnet, brickiness, as we talk about. And that's that's an indicator the wine has aged longer, and that can actually help you determine where that wine's from if they have aging requirements. So that's going to be Marola Barbaresco or even Brunello.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Yeah, Brunello, which is Sangiovese.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

That also has an aging requirement and can have a similar color profile to have a yellow onation. So it can definitely be a little confusing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Absolutely.

Events, Releases, And Closing Cheers

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Well, I think that might be our time for today. Just a little short episode on a little Thursday, just because I'm gone this weekend. I got a wedding you gotta go to in Shillan. On a Thursday. I know. Just a little rare. Also, I already had my coffee today, so I was ready to go. I was not tired this time. One of the few episodes that we were not tired. So there you go. Yeah. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Well, we hope you enjoyed today's episode. Indeed. Please make sure to go ahead and drop us a follow on Instagram from the Sky Down Wines. Yes, indeed. We are posting updates about our upcoming events there as well as little more educational tidbits every now and again. Tonight, we are showing Ratatouille here at the farm starting at 9 p.m. It is, if you're listening today, it is thir July 16th. So that's Ratatouille this week. Um and then our release party is happening on August 7th. If you want to book that, feel free to go to our uh talk page and book there, or give us a call or show up in person here at the farm.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

There will be music and wine pairings with food.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

And a food truck available if you get hungrier. There'll be more food there as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Indeed, and a sneak peek of a future release that we have for From the Sky Down.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

We do have some fun little wines to pull out and have you guys enjoy with us. So we'd love to see you there. And thank you once again for listening to the wine stories. Thanks, y'all. Cheers. Cheers.