Back to School? Convince me....

Some of us loved it! Others, not so much. Regardless where you fall on this relationship continuum with school, learning is great for you, and your next phase of life.

In this episode we talk student life with Michael Shouldice of Athabasca University and the why's and what's of a mature learner experience in 2026. We also chat with someone who is currently taking a face-2-face class with students who could be his grandchildren.

Hear what these educational ground breakers are doing and whether it is a fit for you.

Cheers, Scott

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Well, welcome to another podcast of Retire and Inspire. My name is Scott Armstrong. And today we're asking the question: Should you go back to school? It's maybe been a long time for you, but should you go back to school as you contemplate your work optional life? And to help answer that very deep question today, we're joined by Michael Schuldeis, who is manager of partnerships and collaborations at Athabasca University, Canada's online university. Michael, thank you so much for joining us. No, it's my absolute pleasure, Scott. So, Michael, I've just retired. School, attending class, learning again. Why should I consider that in my next phase of life?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

I think there's a lot of aspects that come into that, Scott. Like we look at what retirement is, and we look at all the trends of people retiring and having a brilliant first three months as they check up all their to-do lists. And then they're like, what am I doing? What am I doing next? You know, how am I going to fill my days? We read lots of stories and articles coming out now about maintaining your mental acuity and the balance between acuity and activity, activity and acuity, and wanting to have, you know, a fulsome retirement. And I think that that's where going back to school, if it's not something that you had initially thought of, could have a powerful impact. It gives you, you know, some short-term goals to work toward. It gives you pieces that you can accomplish. And at the same time, you're building your own breadth of knowledge that could then influence you in what do you do next, right? Maybe your skiing field that you didn't work in.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

And I guess what we could do too is we can go back for a doctorate. We're going to talk about your educational path in a little bit, but you could take something that's just of interest for you. So within the world of Athabasca, you know, are there some programs or courses that you might see that a lot of people are going to? Or perhaps you could even more basically just talk about the numbers of mature learners that you might have within the university?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, for sure. So Athabasca University is a little bit special being, you know, Canada's open university and uh a distant school by design and an online school now since the mid-90s, that even our general students age a little bit older. So undergrad averages at 32, graduate students average at 38. We've got you know a number of students over 55. We were talking about this earlier, how we've got, you know, between three and 400 active courses right now by students who are over 55 years old. And the number one course that they're taking right now is English composition. So could they put that as a part of a program? For sure. Could they put it as a part of a certificate or a diploma, a degree? 100%. Can they take that on their own because they just want to write better? Maybe they're planning on going on a massive trip and they want to be able to journal it properly. Or they want to be able to put together their photo album. My wife and I just did our two-year anniversary of a Europe trip and put the photo book together. And you want to be able to put your words together nicely to accompany all those images, right? So, you know, maybe that's a push for you to do uh composition core.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Fair enough. So we don't need to go back for uh, you know, an advanced degree or a sort of program. Um, at Athabasca University, and you know, you can speak to Athabasca and maybe to the broader post-secondary market. If you're going back and you're 55 or 65, are there some special accommodations that are made uh for mature learners that you are aware of? I know some institutions, I believe, allow uh uh mature learners to audit courses and then not have to take the exams because my gosh, we don't want to have an exam. You know, I don't want to have to study like that. I don't want to feel that way again. Or uh they just uh, you know, they can take it uh sometimes at no cost because there's considered a mature learner. Can you just comment on that sort of accommodation space within the post-secondary market?

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yeah, that definitely exists. There's a there's a lot of post-secondary institutions that do offer those audit options or significantly reduced, sometimes free courses for the more mature learner. At Athabasca University, we have um mature learner fees, which are less than our traditional fees, not free, but um but reduced. And the supports are there, right? I would say that they exist for the mature learner as they exist for all learners. Another stat that I'll give you is around our graduates, where a great majority, a vast majority of them, are the first in their family to earn uh a post-secondary degree, right? We're looking at 65%, 70%.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

So very cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah. Our staff is used to working with people that haven't been in post-secondary at all. So you don't need to be concerned about that, anxious about that. We're here to help you.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

I know there was a study, and I believe it's about 10 years old right now, where there was a group of mature learners, and I'll call them very mature learners. They were all in their 90s and they were taking their master's level programs at Harvard University. Uh, and they were able to perform on an academic par with their colleagues who were in their 30s. So if you're listening to this and you're going, you know, I don't know if I have the mental acumen, that's okay. That's okay. You do have it. But if you don't believe it yet that you do have it, uh, it's okay. You can take something of interest. Uh, Michael represents a university and university academia. There are interest courses and things like uh motorcycle mechanics, photography, all kinds of things. I think what we're trying to get across here is that learning is a pretty good thing for us to do on an ongoing basis. And maybe Michael, that's we can use it as a segue to you and your your path. Tell us a little bit about uh your recent learning path and what you have planned for the future.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, you know, we'll we'll call it mature light or mature junior when I started my master's program in my early 40s. And studied it really, really by accident. So I was formerly working at the University of Toronto. I accepted a position at Athabasca University, running their information center, the 1-800 effectively call center, to help students and prospective students with their Athabasca University journey. And I was in this role, and it weighed on me a lot that I was leading a team of really talented people, delivering service to our students and prospective students and talking about the Athabasca experience when I didn't have that experience. And that weighed on me. So I said, I better take a class. Then you know, it took a couple months when that class was over and I said, I should take another one. Because I enjoyed that. I got an A. Let's see if I can do A. And going to school because you're choosing to go to school and not because your parents told you or society told you, makes a real difference on the experience. And if you're having a positive experience, you're going to get that a result. So I did well in that class, and I took a couple more. And the time came, I'm trying to register in like my fifth or sixth class, and Janice, our brilliant admin who holds the Master of Arts program, near and dear to her heart. You know, she lets me know, Michael, you can't take any more classes. What are you talking about, Janice? She says, You have to declare a program now. You've taken as many as you can as an undeclared student. And I'm thinking, oh, like one class short at halfway through my master's. So I guess I'm doing that.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

And you went on to complete your master's, is that right?

unknown 8:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yeah, I completed that master's. And it was it was a great experience. I spent a lot of time in the fetal position on my couch.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Sorry, Michael, now that you've got your your master's uh there, you uh, you know, don't have to tell us your exact age, but you're in your 50s or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, mid-50s right now for sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

So okay. So so when you, you know, as you age, would you go back to school for your own edification at some point?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

I'm playing with that all the time right now, right? I never thought I was gonna do a master's and then I call it my accidental master's, right? And I completed that.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

So let me ask you this this question, then. If you do decide to do your doctorate, are you doing it for career enhancement opportunities, or is this just something for you? And if it is just something for you, what is it?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Yeah, no, it wouldn't be for career enhancement. My career right now, I'm so happy with it, right? Like Scott, you know me professionally easy, the the work that I do and how much I enjoy it. I'm reminded of Louise Daly. She's uh a former student of Athabasca University, and she completed her first degree with us when she was 75 years old. And she completed her second degree with us at 93. And yeah, and now we have uh a lifelong learner award in your name.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

And can I just say this the words you just said, lifelong learner, that is the message, you know, from today's podcast, as far as I'm concerned, because all the neuroscience behind it, the educational research behind it says, you know, our brains are capable of learning well into, as you just said, into your 90s and beyond beyond. But if you don't, um, the body has a way of parsing off things that we're not using. And that includes capacity, you know, within the brain. So, hey, folks, get freaking curious about whatever it is, if it's bird watching it, that's just great. Just get curious. Michael, a question for you. When mature learners come back to the environment there, um, are there any challenges uh that you're seeing and ways that they're overcoming those challenges?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

I think initially there's, you know, maybe an apprehension of being judged because you've had your career for so long and you've excelled and you've grown in your own disciplines and your own skill set, and you've reached a point where your industry, your peers, your family, everyone respects you for all the things that you know and everything that you're capable of. And then maybe you're going to school in a different area, right? Like a personal interest area, and you don't have that experience. And now you're writing papers and you're getting judged. So you have that feeling of all, you know? So there's a there's an anxiety there. I think that if there's been a significant time since you were in school at all, it's like, how do I study? How do I prepare for exams? What does all this stuff look like? Um, how is it going to fit into my schedule? So there's all those kinds of pieces. And the great thing is, is that at the Basca University and all of the post-secondary institutions have teams of people in advising, in counseling, at their information centers, at the registration office, registrar's office desks that can help you with that.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

As you're saying that, I'm hearing it's okay to be the newbie. You know, you may have been a CEO of a company, uh leading a division, you may have been great support in the warehouse, whatever the position is, and you knew that inside and out. Um, this is a different terrain. It's okay to be a newbie, isn't it? You got to give yourself some grace and maybe let go of the ego just a little bit. Uh, we've been talking to Michael Scholdeis, manager of partners and collaborations at Athabasca University. Michael, if any of the listeners want to reach out uh and explore what Athabasca has, you know, how would they do that?

SPEAKER_01 11:45

But yeah, the easiest way, just do a search online through Google, you have to Athabasca University, and it'll bring you to us.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Fair enough. And I've been working with Michael for, oh gosh, four or five more years, almost 10 years with the sports leagues. And uh, I gotta tell you, Michael and his team are second to none in terms of customer service and helping you find out uh what you need and what uh your next steps are. Michael, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure, Scott. Thank you for your time today. When we come back, we're gonna talk to someone who just this past semester took the dive and went back to school and the surprises that they found. If you're looking for an inspired next phase of life, then MindSwitch may be for you. From retirement roadmaps, informative publications, complimentary webcasts to immersive masterminds and retreats, we've got you covered. Head on over to mindswitch.ca and sign up. There is no cost, and you will receive a work optional life blueprint to start you on your journey. Your next phase of life and mind switch, you know it, you're just getting started. Well, welcome back. We have just learned from somebody who's in academia what it is like to have mature learners in their institution. And our other guests shared what it's like for him to be a bit of a mature learner. I want to welcome to our podcast, Michael. Michael is in his early 60s and has gone back to school. And I thought we should check under the hood there to see how he's experienced it. Michael, welcome to the podcast. Hey, Scott, I'm glad to be here. So, can I ask you first of all, you know, you had a professional career, uh, you retired. Why go back to school?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

There were a couple of subjects um way back when in the early 80s that I had thought I'd like to do. And I thought there is no way I'm gonna do them when grades were important. And I promised myself sometime in my 30s that if I ever when I retired, um, I wanted to go back to school and study philosophy and or English literature just for fun.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Just for fun, and you prefaced this that you thought about this 30 years ago. I could say that may not be the normal case here. Tell me a little bit about your philosophy on learning then. Why was learning throughout life so important to you?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

I've always been a reader. I've always enjoyed reading uh during my undergraduate years. Actually, I loved writing essays, I loved writing papers. And I found that with things like English, I needed a guided tour. It wasn't as easy as just picking it up and understanding it. And I thought, wouldn't that be fun to have somebody in the know give me the guided tour through English literature?

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Very cool. So, you know, you've taken a class. Um, what's the experience been like having not been in school as a student for, oh, I'd say a couple of decades or more, yes?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Uh yeah. Well, I mean, right from the start, the students in the class, by and large, are younger than my children, probably young enough to be my grandchildren. And that in itself was an eye-opener. The change in technology, when I was an undergrad, you had a notebook or loose leaf paper and a pen or a pencil. Now everybody has some kind of an electronic device. Everybody has a laptop or a tablet, and they're banging away on that. Um, now I've had a bit of experience taking notes on the computer, so I joined in, but on occasion I have reverted to the uh the Stone Age, and uh I've used my chisel and my uh my notebook. So that's been the biggest. And the other thing is uh sitting and paying attention rapidly for three hours a night.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Very cool. So why go for face-to-face learning? What was your decision process versus online learning? Because most courses are available online.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

I wanted to get out of the house. I wanted to be part of the ebb and flow of the class in in person as opposed to on the computer. And I'm not gonna say I want to re-experience campus life, but it's nice to get out. It's nice to get into the lecture hall and to watch people as they're learning.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Very cool. Now, you know, this is a podcast, so you can't see Michael talking to me. I can. And you know, Michael, you're in a classroom there, you know, you know, dressing you up as St. Nick wouldn't be a far stretch from here. How did the uh the younger students uh respond to having a wizened sir such as yourself in class?

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Well, I certainly got a lot of funny looks. And what's interesting, and and this goes back to the comment I made about the technology, my recollection of my undergraduate was everybody came into class and people spoke with each other. They were making eye contact. Here, people sat down, opened up their laptops, pulled out their phones, and nobody looked at anybody else, nobody talked to anybody else. And when I did try to make conversation, I got a lot of raised eyebrows. People responded, but I was the guy with three eyes.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Well, good for you for taking a look at that. Um, can I ask in this uh this course, did you did you have any group work where you were able to establish relationships or is it pretty much a uh you know one-person show through the course?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

It's a one-person show. I mean, these are these are the courses I've taken at this point are second-year courses. So they're all lecture. There's no there's nothing else. Um, I've tried to be friendly and open. Um, and so I mean, I like to make quips or jokes from time to time. Sometimes they're well received, other times. Um, again, I get the you know, you're you're making dad joke kind of comments. But it's it's been it's been very, very good. I mean, I missed it, I missed a class uh once and I had to ask, I had to ask somebody for their notes. In the first class, everybody I asked said, we don't take notes because there was no final exam. And in the last course, I had a couple people say, well, we don't really take good notes. So I did a lot of asking. I found somebody who would share their notes with me. I shared my notes with her when she missed a class. So it's led to a little bit of conversation and give and take.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Now, there's a lot of data, Michael, showing that uh, you know, the brain is a use it or lose it kind of uh organ. And uh in my brief conversations with you, you strike me as the kind of guy who who wants to use it. But you're now digging into topics deeper um than let's play pickleball, let's go on a cruise, how about a wine tour? You are you know getting into the gray matter, and good on you, because you're building those neural networks. How did your brain respond to the uh the tasks, sometimes the the more deeply uh penetrating tasks of learning such a subject at this age?

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Well, I'll tell you, I've been it's been about 40 years, maybe 35 since I've I've done any academics. It certainly um I've been uh how do I put this? I've enjoyed the the deep dives, but it's been work. It's certainly been a lot of work to to to to set up my readings for the week and to stick to them to make sure I got them done and I took proper notes and was able to shout about them in class. Like it's certainly like I I'm gonna say like riding a bicycle, but but boy, it it it certainly was fatiguing at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Did you ever have any thoughts, Michael, with the fatigue setting and going, you know what, I really don't need to do this. You know, I I could just abandon ship or you know, what kept you going through it?

SPEAKER_00 19:51

I'll I'll tell you two things. The first is simply the interest in the subject. Um I I I I've I've landed in two courses that really tickled my brain, to quote a good friend of mine. And the other is that one of the things that I found since I've been retired is that I'm not as active with my thinking and my speaking. And I found I found from time to time words were eluding me, things were slipping away. And the the need to focus and participate and read has really helped stem the tide there. Um, I have found that I'm I'm not losing the vocabulary, I'm not drifting off what I'm trying to think. So it's so from both from both standpoints, the exercising of my brain and the fact that I'm studying something that I'm interested in and that I want to study. And there's no report card at the end of the day, there's no degree requirement. I can study what I want when I want it. And that's kept me at it.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Fantastic. You know, there's a lot of folks who still would say, good for you, Michael. Sounds like you've always enjoyed reading and learning, you know. That was never my my thing. They could be saying that. What would your advice be to some people who just aren't turned on to learning? Is there anything a broader perspective that, you know, having been there, you're one of these uh early adopters, what would you say as words of encouragement?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I I mean, if it's not academia, I mean, one of the other things that I've talked about is taking an adult learning course in high school or in college, whatever grabs you, whatever interests you. So from from my perspective, this is something I always wanted to do, something I always enjoyed. So it was an easy decision. But I mean, even things like woodworking or learning to repair an engine, um, these are things I thought about and might eventually do on a non-university track, but still a learning, a in exercising my brain, adding value to my life in doing something of interest, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Well, you must have taken some precognitive courses because you just answered my last question. So I was going to ask you what would be next for you from an interest perspective. Michael, I want to say thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Uh pleasure is all mine, and um always happy to chat with you, Scott.