Liddypod 29 – No Hamburg, No Beatles

At Christmas, Bedford and Beesley tuck into yet another breakfast while cogitating over Beatles history! In this episode, David and Paul discuss the importance of The Beatles going to Hamburg and what would have happened if they hadn’t. This links into the new documentary film that David has helped to make, called “No Hamburg, No… Read More Liddypod 29 – No Hamburg, No Beatles

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to Liddy Pod, Beatles Panzer with Bedford and Beasley.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

So Dave, here we are for Liddy Pod. I've lost count. I don't know where we're up to in terms of numbers anymore. Oh yeah, no, it's um it's the one after the last one. That's exactly a good way of putting it, and it's the one before the next one as well. So there we go. Um we are just in case you can hear a little bit of Christmas music in the background. We are recording this just before uh Christmas uh 2024, uh about a week ago. But that's irrelevant in the sense of the uh the podcast. So what have you been up to, Dave?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Well, I haven't been up to, so we had uh lovely trip with the quarrymen to Germany, playing Hanover and uh Cottbus, uh which is great fun. The people over there are just so so nice, look after us so well. So that was that was great fun. Um, and then almost sort of by accident, then um default, documentary film that I've been working on for three years, No Hamburg, no beatles. We found out almost by accident that it's already live on uh Amazon in the UK, so it's going to be spreading around the world over the next few months.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Wow, that is absolutely fabulous. That is really, really good. So it's on Amazon Prime in the UK at the moment, but it will be in countries around the world very, very shortly. No Hamburg, no Beatles, which is an interesting title. I mean, tell us a little bit about the documentary and then we'll come back to why I've just said it's an interesting title.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Yeah, so so the concept was um there's never really been a decent documentary about the Beatles time in Hamburg, and yet it's the most crucial part. That's where they go from being not even an average rock and roll group to suddenly becoming the best rock and roll group anybody had seen. Now, as John Lennon said, we were born in Liverpool, but we grew up in Hamburg. Now, George had said our peak for playing live was at the top 10 in Hamburg in 1961. Now they'd gone from these average musicians to suddenly becoming the greatest band and they learned stagecraft, they learned everything to do with performing, sometimes by accident, um, obviously getting thrown out of Germany and then having to get back into it and stuff. So it wasn't always easy, but all those hundreds and hundreds of hours that they played on stage in Hamburg is what made the group that becomes worldwide as the Fab 4.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

That's where it all started. Well, I'm looking forward to watching the uh the documentary, it's on Amazon Prime in the UK at the moment, but other countries to follow. But it leads nicely into uh a subject that we or a s a theme really that we started in the last Liddy part about what if uh because you you you've got a book, haven't you, about what if. Just explain the concept of your day.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, so this is coming out um in March next year, can be launched at the Fest for Beatles fans over in uh New Jersey, and it's something that I've been keeping an eye on and writing notes down ever since I was working on Livypool, which is there are so many moments in Beatles history where things could have ended up very, very differently. And we just look at these different events, and my friend Andrew Phillips and I have put together a list, there's about 70 different ones, and think, okay, what if that hadn't quite worked out in the same way? What would have happened? Would it have been the end of the Beatles? Would it have worked out differently? And so we we look at this is actually what did happen, but this is what potentially could have happened, and of course it's still it's a speculation from us, and the part of it is to start a debate, and just thinking, you know, what could have happened, it could have all been differently, but which are the ones that were that's the end, or this would have been different, and that's why with the documentary we called it No Hamburg, No Beatles.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

If the Beatles don't do Hamburg, we don't really get the Beatles, and you know, quite possibly that could have happened because you know the thing I've always thought about with Hamburg was that you know the bands were going over to Hamburg before the Beatles went, you know, they went the first Liverpool band to go over there, and yet we were only we're only marginally over 10, 12, 15 years since the end of the Second World War.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

That's one of those big things, and obviously we have to address that. So, my role as archive producer was to go and seek out as much archive as possible, because of course, apart from the 66 tour, there's no video footage of the Beatles in Hamburg. So we've had to recreate some of that, which is great using one of the um local group of the Beatles Complete, who play at the Cavern Regular, brilliant lads. Um, but yeah, it was going through some of the archive of stuff from the Second World War because of course Hamburg got absolutely annihilated in Operation Gomorrah when there's like a firestorm started by this constant bombing, and over a third of the city was wiped out, and over 40,000 people were killed. You know, it was it was a headquarters for a lot of the building of the submarines, the U-boats, and so you had all of that, and then 15 years later, you got these Brits coming over, and yet they were they were welcomed with open arms. And it's a strange, strange thing, as you're saying that it's so close to the war. People who were trying to kill each other are suddenly now doing stuff together, um, and that really does it it sets the story up for you had the horrors of the Second World War for both of our cities, you know, Liverpool and Hamburg.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yeah, I mean, both very, very badly hit and such a short space of time between the war ended and that you know cultural exchange, in a sense, taking place. But equally, you know, getting back to the what ifs, I mean, you know, it wasn't a given that the Beatles were gonna go because you know, as I understand it, there were bands out there who, when they heard they were sending the Beatles out, were like, no, don't send the Beatles, it's got a spoiler for everyone, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

And that was Howie Casey, Sachs player with Derry and the Seniors, they were the first Mersey beat group to go out there, and he'd seen the Silver Beatles at the Larry Pans audition the first day they're a rock and roll group, so of course that they weren't particularly good at all. That that was May 60. So, of course, when Alan Williams says they're gonna send uh the Beatles out there, it's how he famously did say, Yeah, don't send them out, they're gonna kill it for everybody. Because, like you were saying, there was nobody else who could do it. The Beatles were not first choice, they weren't even second choice. But um Alan and Lord Woodbine, who were like who'd set everything up to do with Hamburg, they were thinking, right, who else can we send out? Roy's Dorn the Hurricans were there playing the summer season of Butlins. Jerry and the pacemakers don't want to give up their day jobs, Cast and the Casanovas didn't want to give up their jobs. Who's left? Well, as the two of them were managing the Beatles, thought, okay, we'll send them out there, hoping it would work for T. Howie Casey was not impressed at all. And I mean, because we interviewed Howie, a lovely interview with him uh a couple of years back, which we've used. Said obviously it's the quote that's always associated with him, but to be fair, he'd seen them on that day three months earlier, said, and they were just slightly below average.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

So yeah, it sets up a a perfect entry into the the what if sort of concept, you know. If if the Beatles had not been chosen, decided not to go, whatever, but they'd not done Hamburg, you know, would things have been very different? Would we have had the Beatles as we know them?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

I think that the massive point for Hamburg is yeah, in that first trip, they learn how to be a band. By the time they're playing with Sheridan at the top 10 club, where they do 92 nights consecutively. You know, anybody who says the Beatles were lucky, no, they work damn hard. But of course, June 61, they record My Bonnie with Tony Sheridan. That's then released only in Germany. So Stuart Suckers sends over a couple of copies to the lads, they're going around saying, Go and order our record. The fans are going into Brian Epstein's record store and asking for my bonnie. And because that and he starts selling them, Brian gets interested and then goes to see him in the cavern, which brings you on to you know the what if we were talking about last time, wasn't it? What if Brian doesn't manage the Beatles and we're thinking it would not have happened? But you have to go that step before Brian to think, well, if Hamburg doesn't happen and they don't make that record with Sheridan, there's no group really for Brian to discover.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Well, yeah, and and also, you know, the the pure concept uh you know they learned so much in Hamburg, they changed so much while they were in Hamburg, as you just quoted Lennon there about, you know, we grew up in in Hamburg. So even leaving aside the the My Bonnie single, had they not gone in the first place, um, you know, quite possibly we wouldn't have had the product that the Beatles became at uh when they came back from Hamburg.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Absolutely, you know, if you think of the importance of like Lyttland Town Hall on the 27th of December 1960, you know, at that point all the other groups were dance groups, and they were in their shirts and ties and suits and playing songs like the records so people could dance. And then there's these scruffy beetles who come up on stage, nobody's really heard of them in jeans, cowboy boots, leathers, long hair, everything turned up on maximum, and people stopped dancing and go to the stage and watch them because what they'd learned out in Hamburg was how to which is what their job was, how to get punters in off the street, make sure they stay in the club and spend the money on drink, and that's what they learned to do. It's a totally different crowd to go around the little um town halls and stuff in Liverpool and entertaining people so they could dance. They changed everything just with that, and that only came because of that trip to Hamburg.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

And it must have been so easy for them to have said, Oh, this is too much like hard work. You know, you're away from home, you're living in in terrible digs, you're not getting paid that much money, you're performing night after night after night, hours and hours on end. You know, there must have been a point in time when they thought, Well, is this really worth it, you know? And and they could have quite easily have said, Well, you know, after the first set of uh concerts over there, let's let's go home, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Well, of course, the first trip ends in disaster anyway. George ends up being sent home because he's under 18. Pete and Paul are then arrested for alleged arson, put in the cells overnight, taken to the airport in handcuffs and deported. Stuart's fallen in love with Astrid, and John's owing his own thing up. I can't do anything. He goes home, and they don't even speak to each other after a week or so. George didn't even know the others had come home. John made no contact with anybody. That really could have been the end of the group. But Alan Williams, Lord Lord Vine, Mona Best get together, organise some dates, Bob Woolers promoting them, and he was such a genius of that as well. And that Christmas 1960, that's the bit of the changes because nobody had seen the band like them. But they'd learned that on the stage in Hamburg, and they obviously loved it and been quite happy to do the 92 nights consecutively when they're back at the top ten. And I think if you then jump forward a few years, that's why they give up touring. Because in Hamburg they learned hundreds of songs, and they could pick and choose what they wanted to do, how they wanted to do them. And could play for hours because they loved it. Stick him in suits, give them a record deal, join a little tour, they're playing for a maximum of 30 minutes, the same ten songs over and over again, and the kids were screaming anyway. So musically, they've grown so much in Hamburg, and becoming famous in a way stunts their musical development. And they think, what's the point of doing this? Because they've had all that fun doing what they wanted back in Hamburg, and they couldn't do that anymore. So I think, nah.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

So Hamburg, in a way, especially if we're looking at the what is, played, you know, such a big part. There was the element of, well, if they'd knock on in the first place, there's the element of, well, if they hadn't gone, they wouldn't have recorded with Tony Sheridan. And there is the element of that, as you say, that first trip when things went horribly wrong. And not only did it result in the end of that first trip, but potentially, you know, they could have come back and thought, well, as you said, George didn't even know the others were back. Uh, you know, that it could have potentially just been the point at which they drifted apart, really.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

And they almost were, you know, um, take it from the parents getting involved. No, Paul's dad making Paul go and get a job, George's parents saying, Right, you've had a bit of fun, you're going off and get a job. Mimi shouting at John, so John stays in bed. So there were so many different things going on at the same time, which really could have spelled the end. But thankfully, they managed to keep them together. And I think doing that little in Town Hall, I think they suddenly realised what they were. Because they've gone and conquered Hamburg, but there's nothing to measure it against, really. But suddenly, here, seeing the reaction from the crowd, that every promoter wants to come and book them, and then think, oh hang on, we've got something here. So that moment of it could have been all over, and then suddenly, with four little gigs over about ten days, suddenly that's it. We've got something.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

I think that's what gave them the encouragement to keep going. And it's also the fact that they had been to Hamburg, not just what they'd learned there and their experience, but the fact that then they almost took on a little bit of exotic nature as well, you know, live, live, you know, live from Hamburg, you know. So there was that element as well, wasn't there?

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Yeah, because of course when they do that Liverland gig and the builders direct from Hamburg, because nobody in the north of Liverpool had heard of the Beatles, the assumption was they're a German group. Um I know Paul, I think uh George also in uh interviews had said, the guy said, Oh, don't you speak good English? No, we're from here, Love. We're not they just assumed they were German because and of course they look so different as well. So not only did they not who know who the Beatles were, but they looked totally different to all the others. So it's a good assumption thing. Well, they're obviously not local, but of course they were.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yeah, so so loads of what ifs there, and and such a key part of of the story, really. And I keep uh you know, and this is obviously the reason why you did the documentary, uh, No Hamburg, no beatles, is because it is a part of the story that people either don't know about or sort of play down as just like you know, stepping stone along the way. Well, it was a massive stepping stone along the way to what they ended up doing. Um, and it you know, it it is a part of the story without which you know we we probably wouldn't have had the Beatles, or we certainly wouldn't have had them in the form that we we we know them.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Absolutely, and you think that probably Pete Best played more hours live with the Beatles than Ringo ever did because of course by the time Ringo's joining, they're doing the 30-minute sets, so they add up when you're playing between six and eight hours a night, you know, as a group, then those hours they they chore come up and go, wow, that that is a hell of a lot, and again Pete West Park of the What If as well, you know, they developed their sound out there, and part of that was Pete's atom beat, where he could he could be boom, boom, boom, four in the bar, because they had to be loud to get the people in off the streets, and again, nobody played drums like that, it was a totally different sound. And John, again, had always said if you didn't see the Beatles in the leathers in Liverpool and Hamburg, you never saw the real Beatles.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

At that point, there was no one anywhere to touch us. Dave, I am tempted to send you off on a mission to find out how many hours Pee Pest played live with the Beatles compared to Ringo, but I won't. Thank you. But it's an interesting concept. So no hamburg, no Beatles. It's on Amazon Prime in the UK. Uh, if you're listening from outside the UK, we'll keep you posted as to which platform you'll be able to watch it on in your particular country as and when that happens.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

You're listening to Liddy Pod, Beatles Banter with Bedford and Beasley.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Dave, we're back with uh Liddy Pod. Uh we just had our customary breakfast. Uh, it is very close to Christmas. You might be listening to this after Christmas, which is absolutely fine. Paul McCartney's playing in the background. Oh, there we go. Paul McCartney's playing in the background. Not live, by the way. Not live, no, yeah. We're not sitting in a in a concert hall somewhere doing a podcast while he's playing. Uh, we're just in our in our one of our breakfast venues, and a lovely one it is, too. Um, Dave, uh, Beatle 64, have you have you watched it?

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Um, so I've not seen it yet, but I've been talking to a number of people, particularly in the States, who I know have have watched it. I'm looking forward to it. I know a lot of it's gonna be based on the Mazels stuff that we've seen before, but it's just always nice to see something else coming out with some unseen footage as well. Um, so you've watched it, haven't you? So tell us what what did you think?

SPEAKER_01 17:40

I thought it was good. Um, you know, it wasn't earth-shattering, you know. I didn't think it was like revelatory in the sense that you know there's loads of stuff in there we didn't know, hadn't seen before, or things like that. But it is it is good, it's heartwarming, it's funny, uh, it captures the moment, you know, and it and it it's it's another side, you know. When you start, it's like this the Beatles like a big jigsport jigsaw, isn't it? Really? And you start to put all these pieces in place, and obviously with the with the get back, you know, documentaries, which were amazing. Um, it's just another another part of it, and I think it's it's definitely well worth watching. Um, it's been very well done, as you would expect with with Martin Scorsese. Uh, but it's a really, really good documentary, and it it tells yet again, you know, another another part of that story. We were talking in the first part of of Liddy Pod about Hamburg and the the days when nobody knew them. And here we are, you know, when these four lads from Liverpool are stepping off the plane in New York to the biggest roars you've ever heard in your life, you know, and and everybody watching the Ed Sullivan show and everything else. And it's just uh it's it's another part of that Beatles jigsaw. And is that such an important one?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Um, because I don't think they could ever have envisaged that kind of reception. You know, they'd conquered Hamburg, they'd conquered Liverpool, but the clubs were small-ish, but everybody loved them. But suddenly, and I was thinking the analogy of to make their debut at the Cavern Club on the 9th of February 61. Three years later, to the day they're on Ed Sullivan, they've gone from performing to a couple of hundred people to being in front of 73 million in three years. I mean, that in itself, you think that's a hell of a journey. And but of course, they started in 56 as the quarry men. So by the time they get into Ed Sullivan, you know, that's a what seven years to get there of hard work, so that they earned the way there, but I think nobody's seen anything like them. And it's great because I've met so many first-generation American Beatles fans. Um, and the funniest book on that is uh Judith Christens book, uh A Date with the Beatles, of how she was determined to go and see them and to meet George Harrison. It's hilarious, it's it's absolutely brilliant book, and that's where it's fun to read what the fans thought back then because it was a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

And I think for I mean, obviously, Dave, we were too young to remember that. Yeah, I mean I was alive, but you know, too wrong to remember it. But yeah, like you, uh I've met loads of those first generation Beatles fans, and I've yet to almost yet to meet a Beatle fan of that era that doesn't reference the Ed Sullivan show when they're talking. You know, they can remember where they were, they can remember whether their mum or dad allowed them to watch it. Um, I actually met a woman once who was on the second row of the Ed Sullivan show. Her friend, her his her dad worked for the company and and they managed to get tickets and she was there. And and you know, people, it's it's one of those defining moments, isn't it, for Americans where they were when they Beatles were on the first Ed Ed Sullivan show, and and you know, whether they watched it or not.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yeah, and I can remember uh being in New York um ten years ago, because having like the 50th anniversary, and it's such a mammoth thing, and we're there in New York, and there was about half a dozen of us from Liverpool over there, and we did like a QA, and one of the people said, Um, you know, this is such a key moment in Beatles' history. What are you doing back in Liverpool to celebrate it? And I said, Um, we had ours two years ago, because could of course our story starts in '62 with Love Me Do coming out. Said so it's almost like for some fans, the Beatles were born on the Ed Sullivan show. And that's been the fun bit for me is to fill in what happened beforehand, and that's almost like it's that's the midpoint. It's how did it get to that point, and then what happens after it? Because that is the pinnacle. I mean, how can you top 73 million people?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

It's amazing. Uh yeah, I agree with you entirely on that one because I mean I I don't great take great pleasure by any means, but it's always interesting to point out to people from uh who who think or you know, from their concept, the Beatles started in in February 64. That's They'd been around for quite a few years before that, you know, just plying their trade, honing their craft. Hamburg was is a prime example of that, really. And that was just like it was a massive stepping stone along the way. But it was huge. And also, you know, the concept of what was happening in the UK. Well, we're living in a different era. You know, if that happened now, obviously within seconds, it'd be all over social media, you know. But now it back then in 64, that that wasn't there. Which, in a sense, for me, is also a testament to how well the Beatles did things because they did it without the modern day technology that we have that will spread news and music and singers and everything across the world in seconds. It was it was a completely different, you know, place at that time.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

It was, and I think one of those things that Brian had to try and get his head round was how radio worked in America. So over here we had the BBC with a national radio station, that was it. Over there, each like city's got at least one radio station. So you can own hundreds of these radio stations all over America. How do you get the word out to all of them? You can't just do it in one way because they've got different owners, everything like that. So that was a concept to get around. And with capital not wanting to promote them until they really get forced into it at Christmas of 63. How do you get the word out? And there hadn't been much, but it all starts with, and this again, another nice what if. What if a girl called Marcia Albert doesn't ask her local DJ to play I Wanna Hold Your Hand? She does that. He brings her into the studio, he's got a UK copy of it. She introduces it, he plays it over and over again, but that gets syndicated. Capital saying, hang on, we've not released that. He said, No, it's a UK version. Capitol Records then get shamed into putting a campaign together. And at the Christmas, they release I Wanna Hold Your Hand. And of course, by the time the Beatles arrive, they're at number one. So Marshall Albert.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

What if? Yeah, exactly. What what if? And I wouldn't have Ed Sullivan ever thought, you know, what if I'd said no to the Beatles? You know, what if what if I'd said no, no, it's it's not gonna work, you know. Uh well, what if would they have gone on to another programme? I mean, Ed Sullivan was massive, wasn't he? You know, so but yeah, there's you know, quite possibly he could have said, no chance, you know, I'm I'm not I'm not taking them. Not at that time, I mean maybe a little bit later. I mean, obviously they were number one, but you know, there was still that concept of what you know, four lads from from England coming over here and telling us how to do music, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

But he could have been influenced so much by the American music, but again, it came through a British guy, Peter Pritchard, and he would give recommendations to Ed Sullivan about any British artists, and most British artists who'd gone to America had failed. You had Chas McDevitt doing freight train back in 57, but apart from that, no other British artists really had broken America, which is why capital didn't want to invest. They thought, what's the point? It always fails. But with various series of events, and one of the big ones is of course is the Beatles appear on CBS News 22nd November 63 in the morning. A little feature about Beatlemania it should have been shown later in the day, but of course, something goes a little bit wrong when JFK gets assassinated, so that that segment with the Beatles in doesn't get shown again. And I think a few weeks later, Walter Cronkite says, Oh, remember that thing, that's a feel-good story. Let's have that. So suddenly that's back on the telly. Then the Jack Parr show shows a little clip of the Beatles performing She Loves You, which they shouldn't have done. So then you've now got Ed Sullivan being told about them, CBS News showing a bit of Beatlemania, the Jack Parr show showing them, and Marshall Albert and all the radio stations now playing it, Capitol suddenly realise a bit momentum here, let's do something. So you need all of these little events put together, and you end up with Ed Sullivan's show.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. It's definitely worth watching. I know you'll watch it very soon. And it was interesting, I see, because they did say in in the documentary about you know how you know JFK had just been murdered, had been a nationwide outpouring of grief, and then the Beatles come along and sort of are like cheer them up, you know, cheer them up, and and and they were they were the right time for the for the country at that moment.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

It's like with a lot of things in Beatles history, they were always in the right place at the right time, where the right place was Liverpool or Hamburg or London or New York, the timing was always absolutely perfect, and it's almost like if you tried to write this down as a work of fiction, nobody would believe it. Because there are so many turning points, and you think that could have been the end, it shouldn't have happened yet. Everything lines up perfectly, just at the right time, and that's why I think the Ed Sullivan show and that bit of 64 is so important because I think it showed them as a band, wow, we've made it, and really everything changes. I mean, who'd done a world tour before? Nobody, no Brian, like we were saying last time. He was just using instinct, and he was right, he was right to do it, and everything just lines up absolutely perfectly, and this is the turning point in everything is the Beatles getting there.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Brilliant, thank you very much, Dave. Uh, we're going into 2025. Uh, you know, every year you sort of say to yourself, Well, you know, will that be it? But it never is. There's always something new. We've got, I mean, obviously, we've got the the the movies coming up as well, haven't we? Uh, which we'll talk more about in the future, uh, Liddy Pod. Uh, the the the casts are sort of gradually being unveiled as for those uh those movies. Sam Mendez uh movies, so that'll be really interesting. Uh and uh when's your book out? The What If Book, Dave? When's that coming out?

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yeah, so that's getting launched at the Fest for Beatles fans at the end of March next year uh in New Jersey. So uh looking forward to that as a launch event.

unknown 28:45

Great.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Well, let's say happy Christmas. Uh, you may be listening to this after Christmas, but we'll say happy Christmas anyway. And uh, Dave, I look forward to our very first Liddy Pod of 2025.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Hmm, what we're gonna have for breakfast though. But uh, yeah. Happy Christmas, happy new year. Can't believe this year's gone. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

You've been listening to Liddy Pod, Beatles banter with Bedford and Beasley.