Heartless Heathens

Come join us in our discussion of Heartless Heathens by Santana Knox!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:34

They're such awkward human beings. This is great. This is perfect. All right.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Welcome back to another episode of The Sinful Shelf. I'm Heather. I'm Chloe. And we are here to review yet another book.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

So excited to share. If you remember, we talked last time about we were going to be reading Heartless Heathen by Santana Knox. Just a little recap on the trigger warnings for this book. We have to find it. Cool. Explicit language, death appearance, history of trauma, murder, gruesome deaths, suicidal thoughts, traumatic adoption, coerced attempted suicide, feelings of panic from trauma, fictional occultism, Christianity, non-consensual drug abuse, anti-Christian rhetoric, horrific situations, political issues reminiscent of our current times, child abuse, neglect, fictional satanic worship, vomiting, disembowelment, dismemberment, drowning, strangling, body mutilation, explosions, bomb threat, group sex, sexual asphyxiation, non-consensual sexual acts, dubious consent, physical assault, sexual assault, coercion, unprotected sex, light degradation, birth control, blood play, knife play, stretching, fisting, DVP, DP, and incestuous situations. And screw it content warning for too many Tolkien references. So that is again that's not gonna stay up. All of the list of trigger warnings for this one book. Just a few. Just just a couple.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Just a couple. Probably. Let's just put it right there. Yeah, that works too. Um yeah, no, there were quite a lot of trigger warnings. Um, I know in our intro episode we said we weren't going to get into religion unless the book calls for it. As you can hear from the trigger warnings, this book is gonna probably call for it. There might be some discussions brought up. But it was such a good book.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

It was a great book. I uh I already told you I had read this book last year and I loved every single second of it.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

I had never read this book before, but I think I finished it in a day because of how good it was. And the fact that she called me out on who was gonna be my favorite character from the beginning, before you even started it. And she was spot on too.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

I knew it from the beginning that he was going to be your favorite character.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Um I also called yours, though.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Yes, you did. Yeah, yeah, you did. Anyway, let's get into our questions and our discussion about this book. Um, clearly, we both love this book a lot. Um, and we're very interested to know what you guys think of the book afterwards as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

So you start us off.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Oh, I'm starting. Oh, yeah, you're starting off. Okay. All right. So, my first question if Romina could be with only one of the guys, who do you think it should be? Regardless of who your favorite is.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

So I think me and you're gonna have very differing opinions on this.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Probably.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Um, I he is my favorite, but I do believe it should be Corvin. The reason being that she was locked in a tower her entire life. Um honestly, I believe he gave her the most freedom to be herself and wasn't trying to mold or shape her into who he wanted her to be. He was happy just the way that she was.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I can agree on that in some aspects because I do see what you mean. Like he did give her so much freedom because he needed the freedom himself. I just I however think that maybe it should be hello Dottie.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Hello Dottie, um Sonny because not only can he protect her the best, but at the same time, like he wouldn't let herself hide in her own lies, and he had that deeper understanding of her mindset, so I get that.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I do get that, but in the end, he did give her a little bit more freedom than you saw at the beginning, so he did kind of adapt a little bit more, especially at the very end of the book.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

He did do that. I still say Corvin, because from the very beginning, he wasn't trying to change her, but like I said, we're gonna have differing opinions on this one, so and it just so happened that we both chose our favorite characters in the book, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

I mean, I love Felix too, and I feel like Felix would do a very good job of like taking care of her and protecting her, but I just feel like he's not as good for her as say Corbin or Sonny.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

I agree. Felix is more of a go with the flow type deal, yeah, and will let her do whatever she wants as long as she's happy. Yeah, can you stop? Too many kisses, in a just snuggle. I just feel like he would do whatever he felt like she wanted because he's not more of a risk taker, he's more of a you tell me what you want and I'll do it type of person throughout the entire book. So I think we agree on that one. Yeah. Um, okay. What character dynamic to you was the most compelling? It does not have to be Romina with one of the guys, um, just any character dynamic throughout the book.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Honestly, I loved the brotherly bond that the three of them had. But I think I think probably one of my favorite dynamics is the brotherly bond that the three of them share. Like, even though only two of them are related by blood, I feel like all three of them are just so strongly bonded. And I know it's because they did the bonding ritual early on, like before we ever met them. But it's just it's such a strong relationship that you can't help but love. I actually agree with you on this one.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

I do love the dynamic between the three of them, just they would do anything for each other, even if they're annoyed with each other, frustrated, they would go to the ends of the earth for each other. And I absolutely just adore that. Yeah, I think it's so cute.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I do too. And you know, the whole reverse harem of it all, and like you can only have a good reverse harem if the bond between them is this strong. I agree with you, and it just it makes it all the better.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

It does. It that's actually one of my questions later on. We'll get to that. Um, all right.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

What do you think Romina's anthem would be?

SPEAKER_02 8:17

So, this is the one I told you I have two answers for. So, first one I would say both of them have one of the same artists. It's okay. First one I would say is Mia Goth by Attila featuring Echo. Yeah, okay, I can see it. Or Die for Me by Echo. I don't know if you've heard that song. I don't think I have. If not, I'm gonna play it for you after due to copyright reasons. But um, yeah, 100% one of those two, they both fit her perfectly.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

The minute I heard my song that I had picked, I knew right away that this had to be one of my questions because this was gonna be my answer. I was listening to my music, and Bring Me to Life by Evanescence came on, and I love Evanescence so much, but just like the lyrics fit like her like expanding from this little girl trapped in the attic to who she becomes at the end of the book, and the boys literally brought her to life, correct. So I just feel like the entirety of the song is very fitting to her reawakening as a person throughout the entire book. So when I heard the song, I'm like, yep, this is her anthem, this has to be one of my questions.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Oh, my answer was so shallow in comparison to this. Because like I get what you're saying, evanescence. Oh dream. Anyway, but like for Mia Goth by Attila, literally one of the lyrics. Um, sh is she wants me dripping in blood, it turns her on. And all I could think of was the scenes with Sunny cutting him with the knife, yeah, and they both love it, and then also like you know, a diamond in the rough, like there he's calling her a diamond in the rough, and she is just that. She went through such a rough time, but she to them, she is a diamond, yeah. Um Die for me is along those same lines. Um, some of the lyrics are, you know, that she has this really big heart but doesn't know how to use it, which is very reminiscent of Romina. And then there's another lyric in there that says that I have my hand wrapped around her throat, I'm waiting for the exhale. Mine are very surface level, not super deep. You go deep with things, I guess. I don't know. I'm gonna keep that joke to myself. Oh, that's okay, you can. I know I think I know what joke that you're talking about, and it's okay. Anyway, um, my next question: what scene throughout the entire book stuck with you the most?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I know that you hate this answer because I've told you about it before. It's when she hangs herself to prove her love for Sonny and the boys. Because I know now again, fictional world, this is okay. Real life, please don't do this, please don't ever do this. Um but to me, it's just the romantic notion of willing to give her life for them, even if she's taking it herself, but she's willing to give her breath, her blood, her soul for these boys. And it just to me stuck to me the most because it is just such a romantic notion. Would never do it myself, would hope that nobody ever does this in real life, but in the context of this story, just her needing to prove her undying devotion to them. It that that is what stuck with me. It's just that absolute romantic notion.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

See, mine wasn't really about the the boys. Um the part that kind of stuck with me the most was when the snake slithered around her arm. Um, it just kind of stuck with me the most because she did not know that was her mother's snake, Medusa. And she had just gone up to it. Medusa, it's like she knew who she was, and like she knew that Romino was coming and would take care of her because they're family, and that just kind of really stuck with me as like, oh, it's a piece of her mom that she never even knew, and Medusa knows, and it's just to me, it was really cute. It was, even though snakes are not necessarily my friends 24-7. I can't stand snakes, I'm not afraid of snakes, but just not I I wouldn't have one as a pet.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

I wouldn't say that I'm afraid, I keep a healthy, respectful distance towards all snakes at all times. That but no, like I I can agree with that because like especially with how she's kept seeing him in her dream and then naming her after her mom, never knowing her mom. I I do I I think that's a really sweet moment.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

I do too. I do too.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I don't like snakes, but I can agree that that is a really, really nice moment. Alright. Did any part of this book make you swoon?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

No, actually. No, no, not really. Like there were some moments where I was like, oh, this is like super cute and super fulfilling. Cause like the the moments when Corvin took her out on the motorbike. On the motorcycle, I feel like I'm old calling it a motorbike. Um on the motorcycle to give her a slice of freedom. I think that was very endearing. Um, and also when Romina pushed Corvin off of the bell tower so that he could ring the bells and have a little sense of freedom. I that kind of was also very endearing to me, even though it's super dangerous, would never ever ever forgive somebody for doing that to me. Um, but I I don't think swoon is the word I would use. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

I mean, I do love the part where she pushes him off the bell tower. It's cute because she wanted to show him what her freedom felt like.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

And I I absolutely love that because she she saw his struggles and and wanted to do it. Honestly, I think my most swoon-worthy moment is the same answer I had last time. It's and it's not the act itself, it's what the act portrays that just has my heart swooping and swooning and flippity-floppeting again, so long as it stays fictional.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Truthfully, I thought the part that would have made you swoon was them reading The Hobbit together. Oh my god, yes, and then going through the Lord of the Rings series together.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Honestly, another swoon-worthy moment because I love just curling up and reading books together with my husband. It is so cute. I love that he's willing to read all the fucked up shit that I am, but like the sharing a part of himself that he doesn't like to share with others, but is doing it with someone he doesn't even know. And I'm just like, oh, sweetie.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

It was I will say that was a really cute moment. And then the fact that she finished the Hobbit books and didn't have the heart to tell him that she had already finished it so that they could finish it together in his eyes, it was actually pretty cute.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

What I have done with Zach when I'm watching a show and too impatient to finish it with.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

We all do that sometimes, don't worry. Yeah, all right. My next question is how did the gothic setting impact the experience of the overall story?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Honestly, I think that if it didn't have that gothic vibe, it wouldn't have portrayed the story of heathens quite properly. And like you and I both have a little bit of gothic in us. Correct. It's everybody get like thinks it has a bad rap when you're in a certain community. Community. Um but it really doesn't. And so like I think when you're trying to portray the Christians versus the satanic heathens, if you didn't have the gothic setting and the gothic variables throughout the book, it wouldn't have hit so well in the points of the book.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

I agree with you 100%. I feel like just the gothic romance of it all in the churches and you know the church taking over the entire country, so then you have to go into these hidden alleys into the underground of the streets, like it gave such a good vibe to the book that it just kind of made it for me.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah. No, I I agree. I think, especially when they redid the um the chapel, the chapel and did like this dark black aesthetic, but keeping the stained glass. I'm like that, yeah. I'm like, that is just perfectly beautifully set, in my opinion. Yeah, like I wish that's what most churches look like, but that's just that's just that's just me. I I it's the color scheme I prefer. I I like black, it's pretty much all I wear.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Same though. Same.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

All right, favorite character and why.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

I think we kind of already touched on this. Um, but Corvin is my favorite character. I do love Felix and Sonny, don't get me wrong. But I think it's Corvin just for the fact that he gave her all of her freedom whenever he wants, like whenever she needed her freedom. He took her away from the others who were restricting it and gave it back to her. And the fact that after he hurt her that one time, he was just so scared and promised he'd never hurt her again. I just loved it. I loved every second of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I knew Corvin was gonna be your favorite the minute I figured out that he has blackout seizures because anytime a character has something mentally wrong with them, some form of mental illness, in some capacity, they're your favorite characters.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

You're not wrong.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Not saying that that's why you like them.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

No, but it's oh it's always that character. Like if there's a character in a reverse, like in a reverse harem or why choose book, I always go for the one with the mental problems. If there is one. Yeah. Every single time. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

But it's just I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I always choose the same type of character too, which is why from the start you're like, Sunny's gonna be your favorite, I call it. And it's true because I like the brute, I like the most dickish character who hates the world. The possessiveness, but has this soft spot for a girl, but doesn't want to let her see it. I just love that kind of like power dynamic. Again, in fiction.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

I get it. Trust me, I get it, because they're like usually my second favorite characters in the book, and then the soft ones are just like I like Felix and I like Gorbin, don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

But Sonny is just, and especially the fact that he has tattoos of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, and he loves reading them. Like that nerdiness is just so I love a good strong man who's also the biggest nerd in the world.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

I I get it, I do.

unknown 21:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

All right. My next one is how much of Mina's behavior is driven by survival versus desire, in your opinion.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

See, I think at first it was driven based on survival, and then the more she got to learn who the boys were and understand more about their lives, it became more about desire. I think it also has kind of like a Stockholm Syndrome feel to it. Yes, very much so, yes. But I feel like it went from survival to desire in just a matter of knowing them a month, even.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

I think that's crazy to me is that she only knew them for that long. Yeah. And she had become their entire world and sh like. It's crazy to think that because in a month that wouldn't be me. But I feel like in her situation, because it was that survival at first, because you know, she was choked out by Corvin, and then she was trying to run away. She got caught, and then she's like, Well, this is just my life now.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

And with Father Frollo being like, throw her to the wolves, send her the poor houses. She was fighting for her life at the beginning of that. But then it just kind of morphed into something different.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

I absolutely cannot stand Father Frollo. I think that you know, all she did all her life was try to survive as best as she could. She didn't have another choice.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Right. Even though she did not know what love was, no, in the slightest.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

But she learned it because of them. Because of them. Honestly, I think it it morphed pretty easily. Especially after she was attacked and they saved her.

SPEAKER_04 23:31

Like alright.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

What was the most disturbing moment in this book for you?

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Oh, okay. I'm gonna have to bring up this chapter, even though I really didn't want to bring up this chapter. The chapter that was Father Furlow's chapter. Oh my god, yes. Where he was singing the Santa Maria I Am a Holy Man. That was probably the most disturbing in this entire book for me. Because that is her dad. Yes. That is her dad. And he was jerking to the thought of her while singing I am a holy man. That was probably the most disturbing point of this book for me.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Honestly, it was one of my top disturbing moments. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

That was and that and learning the moment that he was trying to shape her in the image he always wanted for Karina, that was also a very disturbing moment for me.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

He was a dirty pervert.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

I hate him with every fiber of my being. I think between that moment where he's jerking off to the thought of his own daughter and the moment where he was trying to, um, where he had her strapped down in the basement with the nuns trying to exercise a demon that wasn't actually inside her because he had no other explanation for why she would love these men and trying to cleanse her in his image. That's just so wrong.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

I yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

I I couldn't understand how that could be done to a person. Unfortunately, especially his own daughter.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Right, right. Both of those moments were pretty disturbing. He got what he deserved in the end.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

He got what he deserved.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

100%. I was cheering for that moment. All right.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

So this is more of a question for you versus me answering it. But did the hype that I gave you on this book match your experience?

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Honestly, yes, because you were so thrilled to have me read this book, especially with the dynamic of the boys. And honestly, I feel like reading it, I was so enthralled with everything. And I'm like, this matches the hype. The hype was worth it.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

I'm so glad. Because I had, like I said, I read this book a year ago. I had been dying for somebody to also read this book so that I could talk to somebody about it. Yeah. And when I was talking to you about it when we were up in Canada last year, I was hyping up the book then. And then when we got it for the podcast, I was hyping it up some more. I'm like, I think you're gonna love this book. It's so good. And I'm I'm just glad you loved it. I'm glad.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Do you want more of the story?

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Same.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yes. Okay, so this is actually one of my questions as well. So we can just cross that one right off. I want either a sequel to this book or a prequel. Hear me out on the prequel. I want to know more about the Daughters of Darkness. Yes. Thank you. I would love, I don't need a happily ever after book. Right. Or like uh, you know, they're together type because I know they all die. I need to know more about the Daughters of Darkness.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

I I want to know their experiences, but I also want the Daughters of Darkness to also show the boys growing up. Yes. Because I want to see a little bit more of little Corvin, little Sonny, little Felix growing up with their moms, and then their moms all dying and being raised by Arlen. Like I would love to see that, but I also would kill for a second book. Yes. Not like, oh, it's a happily ever after, here's what they're doing now, but like I want to see their dynamic again.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

I want to see them the struggle of running the satanic shrine together.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Running it, but also trying to fix all the problems in the world. I want to see them try and restore order to the world.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

It doesn't seem like it's just the world, like it's the full world. I think it's just the US in this story. But like the fact that they want to take down that the church in the US from running the entire government. Like they already got rid of Father Furlow. He's dead, who was the head of the church at that time.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

I would love to see the struggle for the US to come back in a different way and them fighting that through their like the money, the power that they have.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Especially with like all the charity organizations that they started. Yes. Like, I want I want to know more about what they're doing for the world, but also do they end up having kids? I know that they all get married, but like I would love to see Sonny as a dad reading the Hobbit to his children.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Well, that would be such a cute dynamic. I know. Oh my lord.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

And I need it because it is just so cute.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Or Corvin being that wild and free dad.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Or you know, teaching them how to work on bikes, and then Felix just showing them all the sports, everything, like because he's a professional soccer player. But also like being like the most nurturing parent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Well, the one of them is stern and the other one's the carefree one. Oh I would love to see that.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Would love to see that.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

I would too.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

I think it would just bring a whole new, whole new side of them.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah, I agree. A whole different vibe. But again, just daughters of darkness. I need more information.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Santana Knox, if you're watching.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Please. I need to know more about the daughters of darkness. I need to know more about their lives. I know we can't pressure you into doing this, but please do it anyway. Would be a 10 out of 10 fan of that.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

You would have at least two giant fans of reading that book right here. Even just like if it's a small like novella. Just tiny. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

All right. Um, my next question is Did any of Mina's actions make you so frustrated and upset?

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Yes. Her trying to understand how to use feminine products. And I'm like, that was a very frustrating. It was so frustrating. I loved the fact that she said that it was like a journey of Bilbo Baggins.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

But it's so fitting though for her, because like the way that she had grown up in the tower, not actually having feminine products, but instead having to wear adult diapers.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

I understand. And it actually fit the character so well.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Oh, it did. But it's just like knowing that struggle as a woman, I'm just like, this is so frustrating to read. But my cousin, who's an absolute your brother, who's an absolute fan of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, I was dying laughing in my room reading the part where she compared her period to Bilbo Baggins. And he came in and he's like, What are you laughing so hard about? I'm trying to watch someone dying on TV. And I'm like, You're gonna love this. And I explained the whole part to him, and he goes, Never say that to me again.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Oh, poor camera. Poor boy. Poor boy. Um, I think for me, the most frustrating part of the entire book was Mina going back to Frollo. I understand she wanted answers. She wanted to know why her in the entire world, but that just made me so mad. Yeah, that she had not trusted Sonny enough to go back to Frollo. Yeah. When she knows all he's going to tell her is lies. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

And like honestly, I understand the need for closure, especially with a father figure. But when all your life all he has told you is lie after lie after lie, you're never gonna get anything else out of him. You're not gonna get the truth out of him, not now. And Sonny tried to tell her that, like, not to be a douche about it, but she didn't listen. But she didn't listen. And she done fucked up AA Ron. And it caused her to be kicked out of the chapel, went off with Risa, and bad things happened. Awful moment, awful moment, awful moment. Alright. Which bond did you think was stronger? The comfort of Felix, the freedom of Corvin, or the magnetic pull of Sunny?

SPEAKER_02 33:11

The magnetic pull of Sonny, 100%. Because she would leave Corvin and Felix when she just felt a tug from Sonny in the middle of the night. And then she'd sneak right back to their rooms afterwards. But that pull with Sonny was definitely the strongest.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Honestly, it was like magic was drawing her to him. He didn't say her name, he just thought of her so strongly, and it pulled her from sleep to go to him. And even if they didn't have sex or anything like that, and they just cuddled and read, like that was so strong. And like the other two, yeah, they're they're good things to have, but just like that magnetic draw to him was so strong. Every night, every single night. It was so cute.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

I did love that as well. In this book, what did you think the biggest plot twist was?

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Honestly, and this is actually similar to one of my questions. Um, it was the father Frollo as her actual dad.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

After he insisted that she wasn't his daughter.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

I'm like, he has to be, and like going off of one of my questions is like, did the Arlen granddaughter twist or the Frollo daughter twist, did you see it coming? Like I saw the Arlen twist coming. Yeah, I saw it from the moment they said that they were on a mission to find something left behind or something stolen away.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah, something stolen by Frollo.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

And I'm like, it has to be Mina in the tower. Yes. What else would there be? And the fact that they stayed in the chapel where she was without knowing it. And then at the same time, like that Father Frollo twist was the biggest twist of the entire story. I saw it coming a little bit, but not as much as I saw the Arlen one coming.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Yeah, no, the Arlen one I figured out from the beginning, just from them showing up. And you know, Frollo being so concerned about them going into the chapel, and I'm like, oh, they're definitely looking for her, and they're definitely related somehow.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Um, I will say the Frollo being her dad was a little bit less like more of a plot twist than the Arlen thing, but I don't think it was the biggest plot twist for me. For me, I think the biggest plot twist was Karina's deceit. So her telling Father Frollo that, you know, I'm seeing visions of my daughter, she's gonna take down the satanic satanic shrine, she's gonna go against Arlen, she's gonna bring it down, and that's why Father Frollo kept her hidden away for so long, is because of what Karina was saying. And Karina had run away and seemed to convert to the Christian side versus the satanic shrine side, and then they find the letter, and she had been so deceitful to Frollo, and Romina's visions were the correct ones, and that's what her mom was having as well. But she needed to lie to ensure protection of her daughters.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

That was a great plot to us.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

That was a great plot to us.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

I did not expect that, I didn't either. I I just love the whole like secrets laid out by her mom, but I also love the visions.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

The vision, I love the whole aspect of that. It really brings in this like the magical aspect because it's not super prominent until those moments, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

And like to see it all kind of like unfurl in shape, it it truly was a magnificent behold. Um, how did you feel about all the Tolkien Hobbit Lord of the Rings references?

SPEAKER_02 37:11

I thought they were so funny. I honestly thought they were hilarious. I did too, especially when they were all sitting on the couch in that one scene watching The Lord of the Rings, and she's like, wait, I thought we were supposed to watch The Hobbit first, and they're all like, No. And she's like, Well, this is very confusing. Why have me read those first if we can't watch them first? I just loved all of the mentions calling Frollo Frodo was a really good thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

I I loved them. I I myself am a big fan of Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, and just the fact that like they would sit down and they kept watching one scene of the movie over and over and over again. Was so funny because I'm like, yeah, that's a great scene to watch over and over again. But just like the fact that like his tattoos are all Lord of the Rings and Hobbit themed, except for the one over his eyebrow and the bond that it gave them, and just again the period scene.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

I thought they were hilarious. I love them. I love when books reference other books. It makes me so excited because then you know that the author is a like you know that they're an avid book reader because you're writing books, but like just to know how intertwined all of it is is just amazing to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Just it to me, it gives like a little bit of insight to who Santana Knox is because if she's writing these references so deeply into this book, then she must be a big Lord of the Rings Hobbit fan. And it kind of like gives you just a sprinkle of who she is within these books. And I love when authors do that, I love when they bring small little personal details like that into it. And if she's not a big fan, like I'm thinking she is, then this is just like wildly out of the blue something she could reference.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

It's one big troll. No, but I do love all the Lord of the Rings. I love it. Um, okay, so we answered my number eight already. Um, so my next question is which do you prefer better? A why choose book or a monogamy book? I know that's not really like they're not really monogamy books, but like which do you prefer in a genre?

SPEAKER_01 39:38

I see, it's so hard because I love both. I love a good reverse harem why choose style, but I also love a single partner style. It honestly depends on the book. Because like I'll read mafia books and I'm sorry, but with most mafias, it's gotta be one man. Some, not all, some, but with something like The Heartless Heathens or the Royals of Forsyth books, like those reverse harems are so fucking good.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

So good. Just the dynamics.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

It honestly depends on the book and the characters.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

I'm actually really with you. Cause so there's one thing that I feel like kind of lacks in some why choose books is the depth on each character. Because you're just getting like little bits and glances into their lives, who they are, because you're not focused solely on one man, one woman, instead, you're focused on a whole group of men and men or women. So, like you brought up the Royals of Forsyth, they went so in detail because it was a three-book series each time. But like with this one, it's a solo book. You can't get super, super into their lives, their backgrounds, even though you get bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

That's why I want a prequel.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Exactly. Whereas, like, like I said, solo man, solo woman, you get super in-depth knowledge for their entire background, their entire lives, instead of just little bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Is there a part of you that thinks that this should have been a monogamy track?

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I don't think it would have worked.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

No, no, I don't think so either. I think it had to be the three of them, the three of them, or nothing. But again, it it honestly just depends on the book, but it also depends on the author. Yes. Because there are some authors who have tried to do this why choose tro, this reverse harem decision, and it doesn't pan out well. But then there are authors like Santana Knox who can pull it off so well. So it depends on the author, it depends on the characters, it depends on the entire storyline itself on whether or not it'll actually work.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Fair enough. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

All right. We already answered my number nine. Overall thoughts on the book.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

I love it. I truly love this book so much. Like just the depth that they go into the history of the country, but it's not overly confusing. The whole underground road, like the world that they have for people just trying to make it by, the romance between all four of them, just everything is just amazing to me. I I do love this book.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

I also love this book. I think you know, we got so much of the Christianity side. I would have liked to see a little bit more of the satanic side. We got a little bit of a glimpse into it, but I just love everything about this book. I love that, you know, Corbin's trying to teach her to protect herself and buys her a beautiful knife. Any man who buys you a knife is worth keeping 100%. Um, but I love the different dynamics she has with all three of them. She finds comfort in one, she finds freedom in another, and she just is drawn to the last one. I love that Arlen put in his will that they had to get married, but I love that they actually wanted to in the end, especially all three of them.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

And they found a way to bend the rules.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

I love in the epilogue how they they went and they found a way for her to marry the other two as well. I think that was perfect. I j I just wish there was more. I agree. I I think that there needs to be more, but it was such a great book. I love that she grew a friendship with Risa.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Yes, her first ever friends. It was so cute.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Did find it very cringe worthy when she put her hands down her pants because she thought that's what friends were supposed to do. To do.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

I forgot about that part. But I love that, like, right off the bat, Reesa was so protective of her. Like, willing to stand up to these heathenistic men and fight for her friend who she just met. Like, that is a ride or die bitch right there. 400%.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Ride or die.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Love her. Love her so much.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

I just love everything about this book.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Except for Father Frollo.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

But he's such a good villain.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

He is a good villain. He was such a pinnacle part of the book, but I just have so much loathing for him.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Correct. I I alright. So my last question Do you like this book better than the last book that we read? And why? Or can you not compare?

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Honestly, I I do have to say I do like this one more than Little Stranger. Purely because the little sister aspect of the last book was very cringy for me. Not as much as it probably was for you, but I love a reverse harem that's done well versus an adopted sibling trope. And honestly, I just think that it it was longer, which helped because I do like a medier book than a than a smaller book. It just there were so many things done in this book that I liked. I don't get me wrong, I still love Little Stranger. I can't wait to read the sequel. But this book just because of how different the two books are, I have to say I do prefer this one.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

I actually agree with you. I do like Heartless Heathens better. Um mostly because of the cringe where they their foster siblings grew up together as siblings. I feel like I would have felt a little bit differently if they were like step siblings who met later on in life or foster siblings that meant way later on in life not growing up knowing each other as siblings. Um this was just fantastic to me. Um I do love Little Stranger, love it, but very cringe worthy, very uncomfortable at times. Whereas this one was cringeworthy, but in a funny way. Not in a this is awkward and it makes me uncomfortable kind of way.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Yeah, and I just I think the villain was better in this book.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

100%, yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

All right.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Well, thank you guys. That was all we had for the discussion today. Um, please let us know if you have any additional topics to bring onto the subject.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Yes, and please let us know what you thought of this book. We'd love to hear your thoughts and opinions, especially if you want to also compare Little Stranger to Heartless Heathens, like we did. We'd love to know what your overall thoughts were on the books that we've done so far.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

And again, we would love any suggestions that you guys have for future books that we can spin on our wheel.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yes. Um, we will be getting an actual wheel soon. Right now, it's just a digital one, but we will be getting an actual little wheel so you can see the spins done. Um, and we will be happy to post our questions with the um episodes so that you guys can go ahead and answer some questions, all 20 questions. I just realized we're playing 20 questions. Just dawned on me. Here is our next read out with the old, in with the new. We are going to be reading Dena Vipers by KA Knight. Um, I'm really excited to read this one. She's already read it. Um now the author did not put on trigger warnings inside the book. We do.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

So we did Google one.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Yes, we did Google them.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

And we found one on book triggerwarnings.com.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yes. Um, again, this is what other readers have deemed, you know, trigger warnings that should be warned about because the author did not put them in her book or on her website. Um however, the trigger warnings listed are blood, death, domestic abuse, gore, kidnapping, self-harm, sexual abuse, torture, and violence. Correct. Um so, yes. So once again, if you guys are uncomfortable with any of those true warnings listed, you know, listen or read at your own discretion. Um, do not make yourselves uncomfortable just to listen to an episode or to read a book. Um, but this will be our next book. We will meet next time and go over our 20 questions for that.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Well, thanks for watching.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Thanks for watching. Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Bye, Dottie. Oh, you woke her up. See you bye. Bye-bye. You're so good. Thank you all again for listening. Don't forget to follow us on our social medias for episode updates.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

You can find us on Instagram at the Sinful Shelf Podcast, Facebook, The Sinful Shelf, X at the Sinful Shelf, TikTok, The Sinful Shelf Podcast, and Threads, The Sinful Shelf Podcast.