Grow As You Go (Episode 3) - Worship

What is the role of a worship Pastor? What kind of worship are we desiring at Generations United? Is there a place for shofars? Today on Grow As You Go, Pastor Tommy sits down with new Worship Pastor Nathan Worthey.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:07

Hi Nathan.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Hello, Pastor Tommy. How are we today? Hello, Worship Pastor Nathan. Hey, I'll take it. I like that. I'm glad that we got to pull up this morning, man, and chat for a little bit. And so um I'm excited to have a conversation with you, dude.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

Me too. We've been, when did we meet? Do you remember when we met? Yeah, we we met 20, it was either 2017, 2018. It was you you came to speak at Destiny Worship Center in Freeport. Okay. And you came to speak on your book, Seven Money Types.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

I remember that.

SPEAKER_05 0:36

And uh I just remember, first of all, I one of the first things I remember looking back is I thought you were so funny. Just thought you were funny.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Like looking or just like humor, would you say? Humor. Sure. Yeah, I almost made a joke. I thought you made a joke. It was not funny. Somebody said that I remind them, who was it of Nate Bargatzzi?

SPEAKER_05 0:52

My brother said that. My brother came to church last Sunday. He just moved to Niceville as well for the first time. And he said that Nate Bargatzi energy says looks like him energy has some of the same like rhythm as you were talking about.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Big goofy eyes. That's what did it for him.

SPEAKER_05 1:05

I don't know if it's the eyes, but you had you do. You're funny. And I thought you were very funny when I saw you.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

My wife does not find me that funny. Neither does mine. And actually, your wife doesn't find me that funny either.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

My wife finds you very funny. My wife does not might find me funny. And I have a friend who has a theory, and I think he's right, that wives do not find their husbands funny anymore after a certain amount of time.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

After a certain amount of time. Because that's what gets you in the door. When you have a face like this.

SPEAKER_05 1:28

I used to have a great personality and sense of humor. That's it. I remember my wife used to think I was so funny. Yeah. And then after a while, it's like, it's just it's a lot of eye rolls. It's a lot of like, uh, but all of our friends are like, oh, Nathan's funny. Or I have a good friend where he's so funny to me. Like I laugh at everything he says, and his wife laughs at and my wife laughs at everything he says. His wife never laughs. And we have this theory our wives don't think we're funny, but they still love us. They do. Praise God. Who's the funniest person in your house? Oh, the funniest person in my house is 100% Hattie. Hattie's two. Hattie Lee, who's two years old. I have a seven-year-old son, Moses. Moses, and a two-year-old daughter, Hattie, and she is hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

I would agree that she might be. She, I she is probably, she's either, I think, gonna grow up to be a pastor, a comedian, or like a Republican senator.

SPEAKER_05 2:18

I could see any of those things.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Yeah. She works a room, shaking babies, kissing hands. Yeah. I mean, this girl, she owns every she owns every conversation with me. She came into the office the other day and she was not having any of me. Actually, I think that it was, I think the whole thing was just a big ruse. I think that she wanted to hang out with me, but she wanted to pretend like she didn't want to hang out with me to make me pursue her. And then when I pursued her, she was like, Oh, I'm just gonna go hide in my dad's lap for a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 2:45

Oh no, don't give me attention.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Yeah, and then she wanted a hug on the way out.

SPEAKER_05 2:48

Yeah, yeah. And when you left, though, it was so funny because you you were doing this fun thing where you were like popping back in the door, she's kind of giggling and laughing. But then when you kept coming closer, she would do the whole, you know, oh no, stay. And then you kind of walked away, kind of funny, like, okay, I'm leaving. And then she went, Oh no, dad, he's sad.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

He's sad.

SPEAKER_05 3:03

He's sad. And then Britney was like, Well, you he wanted to play with you. And she goes, Okay. And so we're walking over, do you want to give him a hug? And she goes, Yeah. Yeah. But dude, she is so funny, and she's just such a ham. And she does this thing right now where I'll try not to do it so loud in the mic where it hurts our listeners' ears, but she gets so goofy and you start talking to her like, I love you. And she'll go, I love you. It's just I can, even with how cute and funny it is, and she just makes us laugh all the time. She's got the biggest personality.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

I love it, dude. I love her. Lil Moses is such a vibe, dude. He's a vibe, he's a vibe for sure. And the best thing about you is Britney. We know that. That's that's a fact. So I walked in into that church, and before I preached on that Sunday morning, um, Brittany led a song.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

You what song was it again? So I th I I think you mentioned I'm trying to remember exactly what great we sang Great Are You Lord that day because you remember that song. And I'm not sure if she was singing the she probably was singing the lead. I was singing with her. We've probably done a couple more songs and that's set, but I think it might have been Great Are You Lord that she was leading.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

When she started singing, I just started crying. I'm like, my God, who is this woman? You know, and I'm sure that you were there too. It's probably true.

SPEAKER_05 4:09

Yeah, but you know you don't remember that. You weren't the thing that I remembered. Yeah, she made the impact.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

And um I'm just so excited that God has brought our paths to cross, what is it, nine nine years later? I the myth is hard for me this morning.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

Yeah, nine years exactly. Yeah, I would say nine years 2017, 18 time, then now 2026 time. Something like that. It's it really is cool because I do. I remember when you came, I remember you I loved your message on the different money types. I remember being excited to figure out like who is my money type. I think I'm Joseph.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Yeah, I that trick that tracks for me. And Joseph and Brittany. Brittany is Jacob, just the beauty. The beauty type, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

The aesthetics. She wants to, you know, yeah, when she thinks about like what we need to spend our our resources on, she wants to make beautify our home, our create all the environment. Create the environment. And so, and I think the Joseph, like the connector. Connector, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Yeah, yeah. So you you may be like the quintessential Joseph. It's one of the things that I love about you. I mean, you're a great, you're a great worship leader, you you all have written you know songs, you've performed together and everything. There's no question about the talent. The thing that I've appreciated most about you is I've never been in a conversation with you to where I didn't feel like you were all in on the conversation. You were all in on me and making me feel like I mattered. In fact, whenever I told my mother that you were going to be joining the team, she was uh excited about that from the worship standpoint. But what she was most excited about was she said, when Nathan comes up to you, he makes you feel like you're the only person in the world. And it's not fake with you, it's not like a skill that you've developed, but um, I've watched you just be a pastor to the people, and that matters to me more than anything, is that you want to see people develop and grow. And let me ask you this question. Yeah. So how do you see the role of what you do on Sunday morning off the stage connecting to what you do Sunday morning on the stage? How do those two work together in your mind? Is there a symbiotic relationship there?

SPEAKER_05 6:15

Yeah, well, you know, I ever since I was very young, I'm I'm very grateful for obviously the just the things that God has placed in me, the past passions, interests, abilities, whatever they may be, wirings. Yeah. Um, because for very young, I I've loved like serving in church since I was a little kid. And there's just something about, as I even grew up as a teenager serving in kids' ministry and started serving in worship ministry, there's just something about like the collaboration of the body of Christ. The the the the unity of different people bringing what what they have, what the Lord's placed in them, passions, abilities, giftings, um, bringing those things to the table and seeing how those things all come together. So when you think about like a church family, you know, um, as on a Sunday morning, we're coming together as a church, and in that time of worship through song, we're lifting up one voice, one song, yeah uh to one, to one savior. Yeah and it's very, very cool because that unity that happens is is stronger when the person on the platform is also someone that people can get to know off the platform. I've just I've just learned that. And I just love the and even as a worship leader, it's like I like being able to look out and be like, oh, there's you know, oh, there's someone I talked to them earlier, you know. Yeah, um, there's Ronnie out there, there's you know the different people I've been meeting, there's John out there, there's Miss Joyce down there just giving her all there's Miss Jane just going to war for us in the spirit, you know.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

We've got some mamas in our church out there. Britney was saying the other day.

SPEAKER_05 7:48

Brittany said, babe, I want to go get coffee with Joyce and Jane. And just get everybody type. No, yeah, same in the in line, right? But but it's like it's just there's just something, again, that that unity, that collaborative, like, hey, we're worshiping together. Yeah. Um, you know, I I remember one of the place I really learned that was youth cutting my teeth doing worship for youth when I was younger. And you know, there was a a worship leader I was I was talking to who was on our team who's been doing it for longer than me, and he was encouraging us as young leaders, hey, when when we're done with our practice, our sound check for youth worship, instead of just popping into the green room and hanging out, grabbing some waters and then going back up on stage to lead, on the platform to lead, get out there with the students. Go play some basketball, go out there and play some ping pong, go hang out with the students. Uh, and what it's like you get to build this relational equity with them. Yeah, they get to know, get to know you, get to hang around you. And then when you pop up on that platform and you lead them, they're like, I know him. Yeah, I'm go, I want to go where he's going.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:48

And I just think that there's there's this there's this beauty in that. Um that that's that relational connection.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

So I love that. I want to go where he's going. So it was probably John Maxwell. He taught everything about leadership for a couple of decades. Yeah. I think he said that a leader is one who knows the way, goes the way, and shows the way. That's so good. That you you can't you can't show somebody something that you haven't experienced and gone to for yourself. So I wanna I want to ask a question. And maybe this was on a platform, or maybe this was um, you know, in a prayer closet. Can you think of the first time when you when you picked up the guitar? You also play keyboard, so maybe it's keyboard. What other instruments do you play, by the way?

SPEAKER_05 9:35

So I play I play bass, guitar, keys, I play trumpet as well.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Which is a great Sunday morning worships.

SPEAKER_05 9:41

Because also I I can play the shofar.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Come on. Yeah, and honestly, are you serious?

SPEAKER_05 9:46

I got a good number of notes because it's the same embouchure, very similar as trumpet embouchure. The same what?

SPEAKER_03 9:50

The embouchure is like can you use can you spell it and use it in a sentence?

SPEAKER_05 9:53

Oh, I can use it in a sentence like, hey, you have great embouchure with your trumpet.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

I think you also have great embouchure just in general.

SPEAKER_05 9:59

But I pretty I think you have great embouchure as well. Thank you. It sounds like a good word, doesn't it? So, yeah, like shofar. So growing up though, like playing, you know, brass instruments and then even woodwind, so like a saxophone player, a clarinet player, an oboe player, a flute player, the way that you position your lips to play into that mouthpiece of whatever instrument is considered the embouchure. Okay. So I know I sound very smart. I'm not as smart as I sound right now, I promise you that. I don't have a doctorate or a master's, but I do know what ombouchure is.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

So it's you know, in my house, what they like to tell me is um whenever sometimes I I think I might be the least intelligent person in my home. Okay, just let's just establish that. That blows my mind, but I'll let you keep going. And then at some point I will I will say something and I will be made to feel like you know, the imbecile that I am. And so then I will say, you know, I have a doctorate, to which any one of the people in my household will say, It you're not a real doctor.

SPEAKER_05 10:54

Oh no. They're pulling that line out on me.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

You're not a real doctor, to which I respond, I can 100% prescribe psalms.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

That's exactly right. It's different kinds of things. I'm a doctor of the soul.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

They used to call them doctors of the church, you know. So it's a doctor of ministry and it's a working man's degree, right? So it's just like the MD, the medical doctor, or the EDD, the doctor of education. Yep. I'm not a PhD because I'm not in the academy. There's a place for people with PhDs, researchers and writers and everything. I want to be a doctor of souls. I want to just walk around and hang out with humans.

SPEAKER_05 11:28

I love shofar, real quick. So shofar. So I remember my first time ever seeing a shofar was not until like early in my 20s, just the churches I grew up in wasn't a lot of shofars running around. Obviously, knew about them, but someone had one. They're like, This is a shofar.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

It's like a Rams horn. Rams horn.

SPEAKER_05 11:44

Obviously, you know, they play them. That's you know, it's that's uh declarative worship sound, like, you know, we're going, you know. And and they're like, they're like, yeah, we have this. And I was like, Do you mind if I try it? I'm just curious. I, you know, and I I got, you know, there's like it's like a bugle in the sense that there's no, you know, like uh valves. There's no valves to play different notes like a trumpet, but but you can take it like in like you know, fifths are like bum bum bum. And I I have a pretty I have a pretty good range on the shofar. So secretly I have this like shofar gift. So you just let me know if we have one of one of those.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

You know, here's what just happened, okay? Here's what just happened. There are people listening to this that attend our church that have just emailed me and said, Pastor Tommy, now is the time that the Lord wants to break out revival through the shofar. That's amazing. You just you set that up. I just filled up your email inbox. I appreciate that. And let me just go ahead and save everybody the email. It's probably not happening. But Nathan, let me just I'll just give you permission. If you ever want to break out the shofar on a Sunday morning, bro, just rock it, man. Well, that's a lot. Now people are gonna be coming to my email inbox.

SPEAKER_05 12:49

See what I do. Now people are gonna be coming to the book. Pastor Tommy gave you the okay, so he let's do it. Now it's on you, brother. Wow. I will shoulder the delegated authority. I will show you.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

I actually have one in my office. I don't know if you saw it. I did not. It's a little one. I don't know if the little ones are different than big ones. I'd be interested to do that. But my friend Rabbi Arthur Kurzweil gave me this shofar in in in commemoration of the day that I succeeded. My dear friend and mentor, Pastor Phil Daniels, after 40 years of ministry, he gave he mailed me the shofar and he said, if I was there, I'd blow this thing on Sunday morning. And so I was like, dude, that's so cool. I'm not even gonna try it, but I'm gonna definitely put it on my shelf. That's special. That's beautiful. So you have to rock the shofar first. I have to rock it some time. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_05 13:33

So you were mentioning like instruments I play, and then you were gonna ask me a question.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

I I did. There's a question behind all of this. Yeah. The question is the first time that you picked up an instrument to where you were like there, I'm connected with God in a way that that's just different. You know, like you were you were playing that guitar, you were playing that keyboard, whatever it was. Can you go back to a time? Maybe it's the first moment or maybe it's the early years to where you would just sit in the Lord's presence and just play and worship. I mean, now you do it in front of hundreds and hundreds of people, but what was it like back in the back from the get?

SPEAKER_05 14:10

Absolutely. A thought, a memory that comes to mind that that's always been with me very close, was even before picking up and playing in that sense. I I grew up at New Life Church in Colorado Springs. Okay. Uh and the desperation band. I love those guys. Yeah, John Egan, Glenn Packham, Jared Anderson, those guys were like, My friend Andrew Arnt is a pastor there now.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

I think I'm going out to New Life next year to preach at New Life. What time should I meet you at the You're going? I never travel alone. So if you want to be my wife for the week, bro, my travel wife. Let's go travel wife. Just clarify that.

SPEAKER_05 14:41

My travel wife was for the people. Let's chat. I like that idea. So I I grew up there, and and those are the all those guys are about 10 years older than me. So as I as I was in my early, you know, 10, 11, 12, they were all coming back from ORU. I think all three of them went to ORU. They were like, I I know Jared and John particularly grew up at New Life as kids as well in the you know 80s, 90s. They go to, or yeah, and then they go to ORU. And Jared is Lord, I'm amazed. Amazed, great I am. Yeah. Um uh the rescue, that's a big one of his.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

I need you, Jesus. Come to my room. Good one.

SPEAKER_05 15:14

Yeah, great song. Love it. So so they so they go to ORU, they come back, and now their worship patches on staff, and they're and they start the desperation band there uh in like the early 2000s. And um, I remember we did uh it was called Rooftops was the name of the album. I remember that album. Yeah, you are good, I know. Shout it from the rooftops, you are found. Oh man, that takes me back. So they were doing the live.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

I love the air guitar. Now, if you're just listening, you cannot see the full air guitar.

SPEAKER_05 15:42

And I remember being at that live recording, uh, which they they invited, like it was a student ministry band, so it was all the student ministries. I was very young. I was like maybe like early middle school age.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 15:52

And I remember being at that live recording. And I obviously had been in worship before, and you know, it was great. I always started playing piano when I was eight, started playing guitar when I was like 10. So I was already doing music, a little bit learning at this time. But I remember being there, I remember where I was, like left side, kind of front, a few rows back, left side, and they were getting, they let us stand on our chairs because they you know it was very, they were very expressive worship. So I was standing on my chair, kind of clapping, and I still wasn't raising my hands yet. I wasn't ready at you know, at 12, you're like, I don't know if I can raise my hands. I saw people do it, but but I would I like to clap, I would clap. But I remember a moment, this is you know, 20, what, five years ago. I remember a moment like watching uh just as as they were leading in some of these moments, and there was just something inside of me that I can't even really explain, but it was like there's something to that. It's like it's like the Lord kind of stamped that and was like, there's something to this, what's happening right now that's that I want you to pay attention to, or is gonna be something for you. And even as as a kid, like I'm knowing now looking at that's what it was, but it was like I just didn't know, but it's just some I felt something in that moment. So then you flash forward in my teen years, I was doing more kids' ministry. It wasn't really like doing helping even though in the youth worship teams or anything until I was like later in my college, early college years. Then I remember to your point, you know, I I played and I sang, I tried to write some, and but I remember my like early college years. I started to get involved at a church where I went to school in Fort Collins, and I met the worship leader. He's a very um you know, important person in my life looking back. His name is Don Damborg because he saw something in me as I was talking to him, and just I he they had played I Am Free, another you know, desperational song. Yeah, they had played that song, and so I went up to him after and said, Hey, I love that you guys did that song. I actually go from New Life Church, so it's cool. You did a new life song. So we started talking, he invited me to you play anything. I said, I play guitar. So I went and I met with him, and he began to really be like, Hey, let's get you playing on the team. So I started just kind of playing guitar on the team, and then he's like, Okay, let's get you, I'd like you to, you know, you to lead some and sing some as well. So it was in those moments that I started to like it started to come back, you know, that that thing at 11 years old. So I remember you I started the first song I was gonna sing was The Enough by Chris Tomlin. I love you is more than enough. I love that one. And I remember singing that. So and I remember like it was I was I thought I was just gonna practice the song, right? I'm gonna practice this song so I can make sure I'm ready, so I don't look like I don't look bad up there. I want to make sure I sound good. So I was practic but then practice very quickly turned into this m- this this one of my first moments I can really remember of like I was singing that and it was like it turned from practicing to worshiping and from worshiping to really encountering like this truth that the Lord's like like I I'm gonna I'm gonna do something in and through you. And it's gonna be me that does it because I you know I'm more than enough. Like I'm gonna but but like but just be open to be used by me as a vessel in this. And I I never looked back. I remember leading that song on that weekend, and I never that was nine, I was 19 years old, but I knew from those moments to now, like Lord, I I'm grateful that I've been able to live my life um just knowing deep down what I was what I was called to. And it's looked, it's looked different in different seasons in a lot of ways. Like I've been a worship pastor most of the last 17 years, but I've also done other things in ministry as well. But whether it's on the platform singing and playing or ministering and leading a different part of the church, that calling is still the same. Yeah, it's you know, it's not not based on just where I'm positioned on a Sunday morning. It can be anywhere in the church, in the back, running sound, working with a production team, working with small group ministries, whatever it may be. It's that's it's still that same desire to like, Lord, it's that open hands. I want to be a vessel because I know that you want to do something in and through me.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

So you know, as a as a pastor and as pastors one of the seductions of ministry life is to become so good at what you do that you can that you've perfected the art of doing the thing to where you can do the thing with while losing connection with the thing behind the thing. And so as pastors, you know, as a pastor, I can go to the Bible um and use the Bible like a tool that I can grasp in order to get a text that I can give. But I think the invitation is for me not to grasp the Bible as a tool, but to be grasped by the Bible as a son who's invited to hear the voice of the Father. And when I lose my wonder with the scripture, and when I when I reduce the things of God to tools to be used to achieve a result, then I think that I've drifted from the heart of the one that Jesus called Abba, and I remember our Lord saying, Remain in me, or abide in me, and I'll abide in you, and you will bear much fruit. And so what what I think our invitation is, is to abide in the vine, to remain in. And this is the invitation not just for pastors, it's the invitation for any Christian. Like, it's not so much that you do ministry, is that you you are ministry. Like people come and eat the fruit of your life as you are abiding uh in the vine, in a very real sense. You you are not the Lord Jesus Christ, but you are Christ to that person is Christ in me through me. He's the hope of glory. And so I don't want to step on a stage and use the Bible as a tool to achieve a result. I want to step on I I want to be lit on fire by the Holy Spirit and let other people watch me burn or another. Another way to say it is, I want to gaze at the beauty of God. And as I'm gazing at the beauty of God, I want other people to look at me gazing at the beauty of God and then realize actually they can gaze at the beauty of God for themselves. And then by the end of the sermon, I'm gazing at the beauty of God and they're gazing at the beauty of God. And we all leave. My favorite moments are when people come up to me and they said, Pastor, when you said such and such, it really ministered to me. And I know what I said, and I know I did not in fact say that. What happens when we're in the presence of the Lord is the Lord is working in the space between us. The word um dialogue comes from two words, dia, which means through, and then logue or logos. So through the word or through speech. So when I'm when I'm abiding in Christ and speaking, and you're abiding in Christ and speaking and listening, we have a we have a dialogue so that the word comes and rests between us. So if I'm saying the truth and you're saying the truth, the living word of God comes into the space. And that's true dialogue. That's true communion, true communication. And so whenever you're leading that worship, what I hear you saying is something like I'm gonna be captivated by the wonder and the beauty and the presence of God. And I'm gonna come and bring that into the room so that other people can be captivated by the wonder and the beauty in the presence of God too. Come on, amen.

SPEAKER_05 23:40

And what a what a journey it has been to learn that. It really has. Because as a worship leader, you know, it's so easy. You're you know, you're approaching a Sunday morning and you have a you know a set of songs, and and you have such a heart for the people to experience and to encounter the presence of God, yes, the person of God, and you know that that leader mode flips in, and you're like, well, I have to help teach that and show that and help draw that out. And while there is some truth to it, leading, yeah, it can be easy to begin to lose sight of if I just step on that platform and just worship, yes, and just set my heart, yes, my eyes, my mind on Christ, yes, that's I I don't need to do anything. He's gonna do it. The Holy Spirit's gonna come and do it. And so to release that control, that's that's been something for me with my personality, a lesson I've had to learn over the years, and I've been better at it in other moments than others, where my focus shifts this way. Yeah, and it loops it loses this way. Yeah. Um, but even like you mentioned, that's what's so beautiful about desiring to make those connections not just from the platform but off the platform. Yes. Because as you make those connections off the platform this way, when you walk on that platform and you begin to just set as a worship leader, whoever worships vocalist, worship band member, whatever it may be, begin to just worship, yes, that the the the Lord comes in and he does the rest. Yeah. And that that that has been that's been that's been a huge lesson. And Britney's been someone, my wife's been someone who she's a great encourager for me in that because she is her her finger on the pulse of that is just it's a natural, her natural lean is that. Yeah. Whereas at times some of my natural lean is to go, well, I want I really want to help the people get it or get there or or see this moment. You know what I'm saying? And I love my wife to be like like baby, she always reminds me, she's she's like, there's just the person of who Jesus is, the the blood.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

He's enough.

SPEAKER_05 25:41

It's enough.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

It's enough.

SPEAKER_05 25:42

She's like, that that is enough to draw men unto him. You don't have to do it. We don't have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

He said, if I be lifted up from the earth, yes, and that's more than just his crucifixion. If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 25:55

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

We are so good and we have so much. None of this is bad. What I'm about to say. We have so much technology, we have all of the tracks, we have all the production, we have all of it. We have amazing songs that people have written that are powerful. And and yet, do we really believe that if Jesus is lifted up from the earth, that the Holy Spirit loves the people of God enough to draw them to Jesus, and Jesus gives them to the Father, and the Father gives the Son, it's this, you know, they call it a uh what is the word? It's it's pericuresis. And the P-E-R-I is like, I think if the Greek is right in my mind, it's about uh or concerning or around, like a perimeter, peripher. And the choresis is where we get the word uh choreo or choreography. So there is a perichoretic dance. There is a Trinitarian father, son, and spirit dance that is happening all the time. The father gives a son, the son gives the father, the or the son gives a spirit, the spirit leads us to the son, the son presents us to the father. The there is there is nothing in God that is not inherently relational and loving. And then God welcomes us in to the dance that is already happening. So, in some sense, the role of the pastor, I view myself as a worship leader.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

So I'm responsible for through the word and through the communion and through even the greeting time and the offering, I'm responsible chiefly to make sure that everything that we do is worship unto the Father and draws hearts, points hearts into that divine dance that's already happening. So the worship leader is just like, hey, God's already dancing. Why don't we dance with God? The angel's already singing, why don't we sing? Yeah. That you're how did you say it the other day to me? It's like you're sounding the first note or you're what was it? You're starting the song. You're starting the song.

SPEAKER_05 27:58

You're starting the song. It's worship is an it's such an invitation. Yeah. You know, in those moments, it's just an invitation. It's like, it's just we start that song with that that first note, and it's like sending out an invitation to something that's special, but realizing that that the event is communing with with the Father. Yeah. It's connecting with the heart of God, it's setting our hearts and our minds on Him, open hands. Well, I love like lifting hands and worship. Yeah. I mentioned earlier, it took me a little while to do that as a kid, even growing up at a very charismatic church where that was like the norm. Yeah. It took me a little while. I was I was homeschooled all the way until high school. So people don't really believe this usually, but I was actually pretty shy into myself a lot of my childhood. And then when I when I kind of got into high school, I started to kind of find my my thing, my people kind of broke out a bit more, became more of like an extrovert, outgoing kind of person. But I remember when I started doing that, it was like, okay, I'm just gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. But I've learned over the years, like really like it's a simple thing in a lot of ways, you know, to lift your hands, but it's powerful because it really is this like, okay, it's not about me, what I've brought in. Yes. Maybe you're walking through something, maybe you're frustrated or stressed or anxious or caring things, but when you be in the in worship to say, you know, Lord, like I'm here to set my heart and my mind and my eyes on you, begin to sing the truth of who you are and what you've done, and just lift up your name. It's just something powerful happens. So as a worship leader and worship teams, we're just starting the song of heaven. Yeah, the song's already going, like you said, the song of the angels are singing. Yeah, we're just joining in the song in that moment.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

It's beautiful. My friend, um, my friend Jeremy told me the other day, he said, really, the job of the worship leader is to read the room and lead the room. And now what that doesn't mean is you're like, okay, what do the people want? You know, but you're sensing what God is doing in the room. Yeah. And then you're you're first among equals to say, okay, this is where the spirit is leading us. Let's let's fall in there. You said something to me when we were having coffee the other day. It's similar to starting the song. You said being a worship leader and a worship team, it's it's like setting the table. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. How do you what did you say?

SPEAKER_05 30:10

I was just mentioning that, you know. Yeah, exactly right. So you prepare for a Sunday morning and and as a worship leader, and you we're gonna sing these songs, and we get to that countdown hit zero. Yeah. We start that track and we begin to invite people. Hey, come on, let's let's enter in, let's worship today. You're you're setting the table for that moment, but if it becomes that the the what's on the table, the food on the table, if that's the the the word the worship set or the music or the the songs, we've missed it. We've made it about the wrong thing. Really, it's we're setting the the table, but it is the presence of God. It is it is Jesus Himself that is what's on the table. We're simply just Jesus is the meal. Yes, absolutely. I like that. Jesus is the meal.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

He's the bread of life. Come on, he's the wine. So I think it's easy for us to confuse those things. I know that um it can it can be really easy to come and spectate a little bit, you know, and and walk away and be like, oh bro, I love the worship today, or oh bro, that song was so good, or oh, you know, the band was on fire today, or whatever it is. But it seems like that makes that's a little bit of a confusion there. It it makes the song the meal, it makes the experience that I that I have the meal, and you used two words a little bit ago. You use the word experience and encounter, right? And I've I've been thinking a lot about the difference between experience and encounter. I'm drawing a little bit on an Anglican solitary named Maggie Ross, and then my conversations with um Dr. Chris Green, that so many times um what we go after are experiences of God rather than encounters with God. And the difference is that an experience is something that we can describe. I felt this, I felt warm, I had goosebumps, I felt peace or calm, I felt energy, I felt alive, my anxiety lifted. Those are all experiences that you can name and describe, and there's nothing wrong with that. But the thing behind the thing that ultimately we're seeking is an is an encounter with the living God. And an encounter with God is actually you can't articulate it. Because when you're encountering spirit, God is spirit, when you're encountering spirit, there's no words to describe spirit. It's like trying to describe the color nine. It's it's just you can't that doesn't make any sense. And so anytime we're speaking of God, we're always speaking assimiles and metaphors and analogies, and Jesus often did that. You know, he would say, you know, the kingdom of God is like this, or this is what my relationship with with God is like and what yours can be like. But but really the encounter moments are the ones that have really changed my life. Absolutely. The moments where I have maybe gotten off track is when I started seeking to replicate an experience. And the moments where I've been frustrated is when worship teams and bands, I mean, I've been in church 30 years at this point in time, especially as a young person, when they didn't sing the song that I wanted, when I didn't have the feeling that I would want it. I would say, oh, God wasn't there, or they need to do more. I mean, being a worship pastor, you've heard all of the things. We want more hymns, we want more news songs, we want songs that you're writing in the moment that you can't even put on the screen because it's, you know, the sound is too loud, this is not loud enough, the lights are too big, we need, you know, whatever. Um, but all of those are preferences and experiences. For me, I want to come into the house of the Lord and encounter God so that when somebody says to me, What was it like? I'll say, I don't, I'm not really sure. It was too deep. Like it's too deep for words. Like my mind goes to Elijah in the cave. He's running from Ahab and Jezebel. He's on the run, he's worn out, and he goes into this cave, which in the rabbinic tradition, they'll say, This is the same cave where Moses actually was in the cleft of the rock. And the Bible doesn't say that, but tradition says that. And so he goes in the cave, probably trying to meet with God, like Moses met with God, Moses the great prophet, and now Elijah's the prophet. And the Lord comes to him through, you know, was it ravens or whatever it is, and brings him first, God gives him a nap, yeah, and then God gives him a meal, and then God gives him an encounter. And the Lord, what was it? Like a was it a wind, a whirlwind that came by, and Elijah's like, oh, this must be God, and it and God was not in the wind. And then it was like God does something else. I forget, I don't have the text in front of me. And it's like, no, God was not in that either. But then it says that the Lord came in uh a still small voice, but in the Hebrew it actually says something more like that the Lord came to Elijah through the sound of silence. And so Elijah's looking for this experience and whatever, and God actually communicates with Elijah through the sound of silence. So, how can you hear and receive a message from the sound of silence? So my son Seth and I were up in um in Jersey having dinner with my dear friend Rabbi Arthur Kurzweil and his wife Bobby, and and Seth and I were talking about how to hear the voice of God, and you know, Arthur was riffing and whatever, and Bobby's just kind of enjoying the conversation. Then she leans in and we were talking about Elijah and that moment, and uh, how do you hear God, you know, in in the sound of silence? And Bobby said, Oh, you think that you hear God like in your head all only, or like with your ears only? Or she said, No, no, no, no. She said, What if what if God can speak to you like, and I'm I'm pointing to my belly here, yeah. Like God can speak to you at subterranean levels through the power of the spirit, and you may have actually no awareness of it in your mind at all. So if we think the only way that God can communicate with us and commune with us and speak to us is through our rational faculties or through the experience of our emotions, we fail to realize that God has knit us together intricately and knows us inside and out. And the depths of God can communicate with the depths of us in a sound of silence that's too deep for words. And so this is the reason it's important for believers to lay themselves before God regularly, even if they don't think anything is happening. Yeah, God is ministering at the subterranean depths. And this is one reason that I think worship music is so important. That when, you know, I I'm I I can play guitar a little bit, I I can sing and flow in the Holy Spirit and pray it, it it gets me out of my mind, you know, out of my rational senses, and I can just lay, I can lay before God in that way. But what some of the beautiful moments with the Lord is there's a worship song on, and I just put it on repeat, just one song on repeat. And I forget about the song, and sooner or later my mind quiets, and I just know that God is doing something in me that is it's too deep for words. And so what what I hope we have so good. I hope we have experiences with God. I do. Yeah, I hope that our people leave and they're like, bro, I love that song.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

I felt God, wasn't it awesome? That band was on fire. I just love it so much. The shofar. Boom! When he brew, when he blew the shofar, he hit five notes. It was incredible. Five notes. What's the word?

SPEAKER_05 37:56

The amber the ombouchure was so dialed.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

It was dialed, you know. I let's can we start a clothing line called Ombouchure and just let them wonder.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

I think it would hit a little golf clothing line or something. As the kids say, that would slap. That was slap.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Bruh.

SPEAKER_05 38:10

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That would be I I'm not even trying to even think of another word. I'm not cool enough to think of it. Bruh. Bruh.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

You spell it, you now spell it B-R-E-H. Yeah, bruh. So, anyhow, I want to ask you just maybe one more question. Yeah. You have you have been uh with us two Sundays now as of this recording. What's your sense of the room? What's your sense of where we are?

SPEAKER_05 38:35

Yeah, absolutely. I I do I sense and and Britney did as well. We were talking the other day, just a sense of hunger.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:42

I sense a genuine I I that's the word that keeps coming to my mind about just about uh our church. Is it there's a there's a genuine desire, a genuine denire for connection, a genuine desire for growth, a genuine desire for more of the things of God and the things that He's wanting to do and through His people. And it feels it feels genuine as we sit down and having conversations with team members on the worship team or meeting people in church on Sunday and just beginning to even hear parts of people's stories and and how they got there and what they do at the church, all the different things. There just seems to be this genuine desire of like, yeah, we we're excited for this vision, we're excited for what God is doing. And uh I think I think we're seeing that in the worship as well. Even even being there on a Sunday in the congregation and playing on the platform, playing guitar this last weekend, and we're excited to jump. It was sweet, it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Pastor Charlie, after 30 years of leading, I mean he's a he's a stinging legend in in that space, you know. On his last Sunday, he said, he said, hey dude, would it be cool with you if I had Pastor Nathan lead worship with me? I'm like, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_05 39:50

That was that was so special. What a moment. That was special to me. And on and and again, that's something, honestly, as we've been talking and preparing that in the in my mind and in my heart, I think I might even have mentioned it to you once. I was like, in a perfect world, I would love the opportunity to be on the platform with him. Yeah. Like to be able to lead and serve on a weekend together as he gets ready to step into his next. And it happened. And it happened. And the Lord knew how beautiful it would be. It was it was awesome. And so I'm I'm excited for that. I I bl and you were talking a moment ago. I love everything that you were sharing about the the going from the experience to the encounter. Yeah. And I think that what's so beautiful is the Lord knows us so well. Yeah. He knows how He I mean He created us down to the most detailed wiring of our of our minds and our and our bodies and our emotions. He knows us so well. And the Lord, He, He, He can come and work and move in our emotions and our feelings. Those things aren't aren't bad. You know, they're be emotional worship. It's not like, oh, you turned it into something you shouldn't be. No, it's part of our being. The Lord works in that, but he knows us so well that we can get caught in all of those things. And he wants to go to that next place. Instead, that that next place, which actually more becomes less. And I think of the the you know, Psalm 46, like be still and know that I am God. And I think like we feel like as people, to know something, we need more information. We need more, we gotta experience more, to know more. Because in the natural, you do if you want to really learn something, you gotta experience it, you gotta do it, you gotta study, you've got to get get reps or whatever. So we start feeling like, okay, to know really something, to know what God wants from me, I gotta really, I gotta find out more and know more and seek more information. When it really, he's like, no, seek me, but do it in the stillness, because that encounter, it doesn't, it doesn't always come this way. It's right, it comes into the core of who we are, to the spirit of the world.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

There's a time for everything. There's a time to to laugh and a time to weep. Come on, weep, you know, a time to plant and a time to uproot. There's there's a time to dance, there's a time to shout, there's a time to clap, there's a time to lift our hands. And I think that all of those things, the lifting of hands, the clapping of hands, the shouting, all of that is part of the experience that positions us for the encounter. So the reason I lift my hands in worship is as a sign to the Lord that I am open to encounter you in the deep place of me. Like I am open, God. And this is why it is important that in it, especially grown men, like it's tough for us, bro. It's tough, man. You know, we're in like we're in boggy bayou. You know what I mean? It's a man to men, right? Like we got some special forces operators and our. They've got a lot of tattoos and a lot of stories. And you know, real strength, real strength. And these men have real strength. Real strength is the ability to say, there's a strength greater than my strength. And I'm gonna tap out and let you tap in. I'm like God, I'm I'm here. And so I'm gonna put my hands up. I'm gonna kneel down, I'm gonna shout to you, and all of those things. All of those are experiences that set up the encounter. And what we don't need is just another Sunday morning set list. What we need is an encounter with the living God. Amen. We're gonna have it, man. That's the road that we're walking together. Amen. And I pray we've got a long time to do it. One church, one body, one mission to see just one more person come to know Jesus, bro. Amen. This is so good, man. So I want to ask, yeah. Uh, you you actually brought your guitar today. You and I are doing, we're working on a song.

SPEAKER_05 43:24

Yep, we're on songwriting.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

It's happening. It's happening. Maybe one day other people will hear it. If not, you and I will enjoy it.

SPEAKER_05 43:30

We'll keep we'll keep doing it, we'll keep listening to it.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

Yeah. Uh I mean, you can you grab that beautiful Gibson? Yes, absolutely. Let's grab it. I also have a beautiful Gibson. I have a 1957. Uh, it's a Gibson acoustic, electric uh cutaway. My grandfather gave it to my dad, my dad gave it to me. And bro, you do I wonder if you would just do any song that's on your heart, but I wanted to ask, is there an old desperation band song? Is there like a something like amazed or something like I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Yeah, that might be the play. Is that the play? I think it might be. I gotta figure out this chair real quick. The chair is not conducive. The arm is a little is a little bit there. Oh, that there we go. We can we can make this work though all day.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

We're about to flow in this.

SPEAKER_04 44:13

Yeah. And you dance over me.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

Ah, such a good tune.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

While I am aware, you sing all around, but I never hear the sound. Lord, I'm amazed by you. Lord, I'm amazed by you. Lord, I'm amazed by you how you love me. Lord, I'm amazed by you. Lord, I'm amazed by you. Lord, I'm amazed by you. How you love me.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

Well, Jesus, we just thank you. Thank you for um God, you I I just never I could I could follow you for a thousand lifetimes, God. And I wish I wish I had a thousand years. And uh but I think in you I will have a thousand years. I'll never get to the end of just being amazed by you. This may be the reason the angels can cry out, holy, holy, holy, 24-7, is because every moment of every day they see a new side of your character, your beauty, your glory, and all they can say is the word that says it all. Holy, and God, we are amazed by you. Lead us, lead this church to be one church with one heart. God, we love you so much. In Jesus' name. Amen. Nathan. Amen. Can't wait, man.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

I can't wait too. We're excited.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

I'm gonna go get a refill of this beautiful smoky iced coffee. You might need another one of those. In fact, I'm gonna eat this little cherry thing that's right here, man.

SPEAKER_05 46:44

That cherry's gonna be special. After getting all that flavor from that, you're gonna really like that cherry.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Hey, we love you, friends. Uh, don't miss Sunday mornings. If you're missing, you're missing out. And uh, we love you very much. We'll talk soon later. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Thank you for joining Grow As You Go. Be sure to hit the follow button wherever you listen to podcasts.