Visual Artist Studio Secrets with A. M. Caballero & A. Jabre: MY ART TOOLS

What if a visual artist’s favourite tool revealed their underlying art themes and intrinsic creative processes?

Hosted by Joana P. R. Neves.

Guests: Ana María Caballero and Alexandra Jabre.

This segment is as much:

• ​an art education as
• ​an introduction to art critique,

by empowering you

• ​with art tips
• ​art techniques we seldom talk about.

My Art Tools is a segment associating two art talks where an established visual artist opens their tool box: what is their fetish instrument? An artist life can get as technical as it can be spiritual. In fact, they may be related...

But most of all, a visual artist's hand guides you through the passion of following one’s vision, the pleasures of trusting an instinct, and the resilience it takes to work creatively. After all, creative processes are everywhere, for the visual artist as for any problem-solving situation, with an added philosophical twist.

Our two guests also discuss what it takes to embark on a creative life, what it takes to create poetry, sculpture, and more. What sacrifices do you make, what path do you take, and what kind of healing does art bring?

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Host & Founder

Exhibitionistas is hosted by Joana P. R. Neves, a seasoned curator and writer with over 20 years of experience in the contemporary visual art field. She loves demystifying contemporary art by blending art history, theory, and personal reflections to reveal how art can uncover views on today's hottest topics as much as on everlasting existential questions.

For collaborations, text commissions and inquiries: joana@exhibitionistaspodcast.com

#arteducation #contemporaryart #artistlife #femaleartist #greatartists #contemporaryartist #artiststudio #artistinterview #artisttalk #greatwomenartists #visualartists #arttalk

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I've been one of the early people who have been recording their poems or minting them as it's called on the blockchain.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

What makes the most sense to me is that these visitations or messages or dreams may just be my consciousness existing on several levels.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

My name is Anna Maria Caballero. I'm originally from Colombia, but I currently live in Madrid, Spain.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

My name is Alex Java. I live and work in London, but my parents are Lebanese.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Welcome to the second episode of My Art Tools, where two artists reveal what their favorite art tool is, which leads us straight into their practice. Exhibition This is an independent podcast created and hosted by me, Joanna Pierre Nevis, because we're all both actors and spectators of art and life. If you're new here, you have a whole catalogue of episodes to enjoy. Discover them at your own pace.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Thank you, Joanna, for having me. It's wonderful to be on your podcast, of which I've been a fan for a long time. I am a poet. I'm the author of eight books in both Spanish and English. And I'm also a performance sculptor, installation artist. I like to take my poems beyond the page.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Hello, thank you for having me, Joanna. I work mostly with watercolours. Recently I've actually started looking into different materials. So I've been doing sculptures like resin sculptures, 3D printed sculptures, bronze sculptures, um, cyanotypes. So I am going towards slightly more costly materials, but I found recently that actually different mediums can reach people in different ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I was an undergrad at Harvard and I was the only student in my concentration, which was romance studies. So it's a combination of French, Spanish, and Italian literature and history, theory, etc. And I was really close with my professors because I was the only student again in my grade. I didn't want to follow in their paths as much as they encouraged me because I realized being an academic was really just reading criticism all day. I didn't want to write books about books. I wanted to write books. I wanted to write the novels, I wanted to write the poems, the plays, etc. I didn't want to write the literary theory about the poem. And so it just seems to me like I wasn't right for academia. And I um went off into the workforce, you know, and just found work that would um be sustainable for my life and and interesting and and aligned with my with my also sort of moral compass. And I um, you know, lasted for a total of 10 months in the finance industry, said goodbye, and never went back and started working in government, started working in media, started working in all sorts of other endeavors. And then I um I began publishing, seriously. Um the first book I ever wrote was actually in Spanish and it won a National Poetry Prize in Colombia. Um, I was the first woman to to receive that honor, but I I really credit my writing path uh to being a kid and reading a book a night and just going through books, you know, like eating them, devouring them, literally consuming them. And I think that that's really where writers are made, is in within the folds of another book.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

In my 20s, I had a different career, and so at the end of my 20s, I went back to school and I got my MFA and I began my career as a full-time artist. I'm really attracted to bronze sculptures at the moment. Well, I I they're gold-plated, so it's really the gold that interests me because the gold, when I grew up, before my parents started collecting contemporary art, our house was full of like Byzantine icons. So I grew up basically with gold circles and a lot of this kind of divinity, and that's a really strong connection. The Byzantine icons in my work today. It took me a while to realize, but that's the connection there. But yes, it's the gold sculptures that I like. So, um, but also the cyanotypes, why? Because that Prussian blue is exactly the reason I use the blue, it's this soothing, calming, very pleasing blue. It's hard to say you don't like it, it's it's a universal blue. Um, and so that's why I like cyanotypes as well. So, so the the mediums I am exploring are somehow linked to my current painting practice, whether it's gold circles or blue prints. Um, and I do hope to something I really want to explore is uh animation because a lot of my images are trying to tell a story, and there is a storyline, and there is a storyboard, and it's not very clear with random sized paintings. So uh one day I also hope to go down that route and explore that as a medium.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

How did Anna Maria and Alex navigate a life that didn't logically lead to art making, but which also carried a deeply seated vocation, calling, talent, whatever you want to call it?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I did my undergrad studies and then I went into the workforce, and then when I was older, actually living in Miami, um, I had my first child and I was pregnant with my second, and I decided I wanted to get an MFA in poetry, and I wanted to combine it with an MFA in fine arts because I really felt drawn out that I was an artist and I wanted to take poetry into different realms, and there was actually no communication between the fine art and the English or creative writing department. There was no way of doing both. They didn't even know what to start, you know, who to call, like what number to dial. They had no idea on either side. So I stuck with poetry, always feeling that I could um that I needed to take my work into the physical realm in different ways. And then actually came through um the digital. So I started digitizing my work when social media came around to share my poems, my published work as animations on social media. And through that I started creating a community and some interest, and at least, you know, was getting um responses from people for to my work, which felt uh quite fulfilling, versus sometimes publishing, you know, in these uh literary journals. You really don't know who's reading your work, if anyone at all. It's um it can be a little bit anticlimatic at times when you work so hard to get published, and then there's all this this like silence afterwards. And so I I was really um excited to see this energy, and then I read about blockchain and how digital um assets could now be traded, and so I said, Great, I will take these poems that I've already digitized and share them on these platforms. So, one of the ways that I've been bringing my poems into the world is through blockchain. I've been one of the early people who have been recording their poems or minting them as it's called on the blockchain, and I use several blockchains to do this. I love to work with Tezos, with Bitcoin, with Ether. Um, I'm I'm chain agnostic, as they say, and I was invited to be part of a Sotheby's curated exhibition, and for this one I presented a poem, a villainelle, which is a very traditional format of a poem. Um, for example, Dylan Thomas's Do Not Go Quietly Into That Dark Night, that's a Villanelle. Um, and my poem called Cord was recorded onto the Bitcoin blockchain, and it became the first poem ever sold by a living poet by Sotheby's. Of course, Sothebees had sold manuscripts and folios by long-gone poets, Walt Whitman's notebooks, Emily Dickinson's um, you know, document documentation, but they hadn't sold a poem by a living poet until mine. And so that just gives you a bit of an idea of how separate really the the poetry ecosystem has become from the contemporary art world when you when you think about how crazy it is that that that's the first one. And actually, if you go on the Sotheby's um site and see what they have available, at least when I did the last time, the only documents or poems or or or written material that they had by a living author was actually a first edition set of Harry Potter.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

I remember calling myself an artist when I was very young, and I personally believe that I've been an artist for many centuries, and it's a talent that I've been developing across lifetimes. So I think I knew exactly who I was and what I was gonna do when I was born. And then there came a journey of authenticity, which where you have to push back against expectations and pressures from society and family and things like that. But I never had a doubt in my mind of what I should do and who I was. It was more about not caring about other people, and that was the real journey I went on. Um, how to not seek approval from anyone else and how to be as authentic as possible without compromising. Um, so it was very simple for me. I actually I really don't think I learned to paint a portrait in this lifetime with no undergrad training. I think I've been developing that for a really long time. I think it's it's a lot of people carry talents and traumas. I think we carry over our talents and our traumas. I did have a great granny who painted, and her name was Alexandra. So, but that she was the only person in my family who showed interest in art, and uh she took it up later in her life and she started painting and she painted a lot of uh landscapes in Lebanon, she painted a lot of Lebanese women. Yeah, I think I was like two when she passed. She was my great-grandma, but I find it very interesting that I have her name, and I've I I feel like almost maybe I'm realizing her dream that couldn't happen at that time because women didn't have jobs, and then over time, over 20 years, uh now I'm 40, I realized that the answers are all inside of you, and there is no one outside of you that can help you really, like that can help you really understand what it is you're trying to solve because that's not their experience. So I've been I've seen every time I go to a new country, I go see a healer or a psychic or a medium. I must have seen dozens and dozens of these people. I've tried every scientific and non-scientific route to be more present here. And uh, if I've learned anything, is that when you try and explain things, people can only respond to you from their experience. So what I've learned over time is you know all that you have all your answers. You know what you should do. It's all about more trusting your intuition and your gut and trusting yourself. It's kind of like a self-love journey of like, why do you think someone else knows better for you what's good for you? It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

But what are Anna Maria and Alex's tools of choice? What is their favorite arts tool?

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I actually brought you the journals that I filled up um this year so far, and that for me remains my weapon of choice. Uh the paper journal where you can not only write your thoughts but start gathering entire books, exhibition ideas, questions to self. And so I I really wanted to, when you invited me, Joanna, to this podcast, I really wanted to exalt a tool that many might think is um, you know, of a of a different era as a continuously relevant source of inspiration, uh, planification, and synthesization of ideas. Really, ideas are nothing until we write them down and then turn them into reality. Well, this one my daughter made for me at um a little shop where you could make um all sorts of fun things with glue guns. They're all pretty small, they have that in common. So I like them to be light because I usually transport my laptop around and I you know might have to take care of my back at some point. So I try to have smaller, smaller notebooks. And other than that, I actually kind of enjoy the moment when one is coming to an end and I don't yet have the next one, and I get to pick it out, and I kind of let life dictate which one it will be. You know, usually I encounter one at a museum store, so they might have a little bit of a logo on it, a branding, and it'll be a memory. But I try to keep them light, is my my biggest concern. Actually, the one that has all the toys that my daughter made for me, they're all plastic, so it's the heaviest one, it's quite heavy compared to the rest. I'm usually writing a novel or a book. Um, I'm writing one right now in in note form. So from start to end, it's the new material that I'm writing. And then I also have a whole section that goes from back to front, and that is usually filled with ideas for exhibitions and note taking more aligned with my art practice. And I do like the notebooks to be lined actually. So if it's in my notebook, I know that it's somewhere. And from there, the next step, of course, is taking it into the digitized space, into the word processor, right? Um a Google Doc, Microsoft Word, etc., a note in the laptop, and when it starts becoming um a manuscript type form or a sketched out exhibition proposal, it's getting closer to reality. So there is a process of of um, you know, projects, ideas, dreams going from mind to hand to paper, and then to screen, where they are shared with the world um to find a final form. For many years it was a typewriter. Um before that it had to be done by hand, but I think there is this formality, right, of taking it from the handwritten page into the word processor, whatever form of word processor you choose, because that's really where it starts to very visually also take shape, and where you can rearrange paragraphs, where um, you know, spelling and grammar come into fruition in in ways that they can, you know, when it's a private journal, you you can omit punctuation, you can misspell words and not even, you know, go back to correct. But here there is this formality where there is an intention to share it with others. And I really think that that's what um separates the notebook where it's this private form of brainstorming, note-taking, where you're typically not sharing your notebooks with with other people. You know, you're dead, you're certainly not sharing it with an editor who's going to read them and publish them. That's just not the way it's done. But when you take it to the word processor, to the screen, there is an intention of taking the work to somebody else to be considered. And so there is a level of polish that needs to be considered. There is uh formatting, you know. Of course, all editors require some minimal form of presentation, and so so it becomes this act of um implicit sharing because you are preparing the work for the world.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

Okay, so um, what I chose to bring today is my collection of salt. I often work mostly with watercolour and paper and salt, which to me are in line with the subject I'm exploring, things I can I can collaborate with. So a lot of my practice is about the between guiding the material and surrendering. So salt and water are my favorite because they kind of finish the job for me, and I cannot really control how they will play with the pigment on the watercolor. And even sometimes the paper will do its own thing, and I find that very fascinating, that's like an extension of what the human does, and then the rest kind of gets left up to external forces, and these are why they're my favorite tools because a lot of my work is looking at these unseen forces that play roles in our lives, and um and I love the idea of letting go. So technically, salt, like each salt is its own tool, so for example, like different sized salts will cause like different effects. So already the the size and shape of the crystal um can create a different effect on the paper. Then I have differences with fine salt, like for example, if I have like a like just your normal, you know, table salt will dissolve a lot faster and create like smaller speckles. But what I really like about the salt is when it's very chunky and it'll create huge crater-like spidery um effects, let's say, once it's all dry. And then also the different salts have different mineral levels, which I think also affects how it will behave with the paper. So, in a way, if it works by like taking water from the paper, the faster absorbing ones will have a different bloom on the paper than the slower absorbing one, which would look more like textured. Um, and then there's also different minerals in the salts. Um, so like I went this summer to Peru with my husband, and outside Cusco there's a beautiful salt plane called Marass, and they had so many different salts, and I ended up buying every single one and testing them on paper. And I saw that some were very mineral rich, like the black salts and the pink salts, and those ones alter the water and how the pigment separates differently than, for example, the table salt I just showed you. So some can look more cloudy and more smoky rather than crisp, depending on their pigment, depending on kind of properties they have, like magnesium or whatever salt has, and um they're not always all the same crystal of sodium chloride. So, in a way, different salts are also different tools, and then there's other factors like how wet is your paper, and what kind of paper, and how much pigment is on the paper. I say to you, salt is a tool, but actually, within that category, there's so many more subcategories to uh explore, um, and that's why I like using the salt and the water together. It it feels alive, and it's like this whole element of unpredictability that I really enjoy. So I I can set the conditions, like, but at the end of the day, the salt will finish the work and the water, so the evaporation or the gravity or whatever's in it, or time that I that I waited before putting it on the paper. So I like it because it kind of mimics um what I'm working on, which is a lot about natural systems, you could say, like galaxies and cells and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Do tools lead to certain rituals and what kind of work conditions do they create? Are there any moments when you have to fight your own tools or the conditions that they create, or take on others which are considered obsolete or not as used as before?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

I still use word, not a lot of people do, but um I actually like to be offline when I'm writing, so I make a choice to turn off the internet and really just focus and give myself that time, or if I'm in a space like an airplane or a low, you know, bad reception area, it's actually great. I'm actually thrilled because it's time to focus on the work, and that's why Microsoft Word continues to be um an interesting tool for me personally, um, because it allows me for that offline writing. And um, you know, I also think that um there is uh this moment when, for example, I take certain liberties with grammar, and that moment when you sort of tell the word or you know, the the word corrector to ignore it is a very empowering moment for me. I'm like, no, ignore it. I want it this way. And then that you also have access to tools like a thesaurus, and that's really great because you can, of course, expand your line of inquiry by just looking at related words. right as as Wittgenstein say it this this related family of language and then it opens doorways for you and so I think that the the type of word processor that you use is actually quite intentional for me notes on my computer still are very informal still are just sort of like one-liners ideas that pop into my mind that sometimes I don't have for whatever reason a notebook on me that I just put in my on my notes um Microsoft Word I know it's the real deal and then usually um interestingly ideas for exhibitions or proposals for projects that are more creative based I do work on online Google Docs um you know decks because I usually need to share them sooner quicker more agile in a more agile way with uh curators gallerists etc so um a Microsoft Word document still remains quite a private affair for a long period of time before it becomes publicly shared. And I perform my work quite often and when I give these live readings people are quite moved by them there's a real visceral reaction. So I wanted to further incorporate my physical self into my digital works and the way I thought to do this was by performing my poems through movement. I also wanted to lean into the connection between embodied experience and our attempt to record it and also the relationship between spoken language and body language and movement and physicality. Of course as a you know Latin American I have a lot of movement in my body when I speak it's it feels like a full form effort uh to get my meaning across and you know when my hands are tied literally it feels like I'm not as evocative or as expressive as I could be and so I really wanted to hammer this idea in by becoming um becoming language through movement.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Mammal the hunger strategy is not working starving the home as I am starved better to serve it as I am wrought bathed as I am doused clothed as I am clung to give yes to give to retort as if done oh something somewhere has ended but not here where my middle spawns a soul watch me sit while my gut constructs bone hear me speak while my trunk accretes brain think me filled while my belly builds tongue I transform yes transform stupor into skull this was Mammal twenty twenty-four by Anna Maria Cavallero for those who aren't watching is also a performative piece by the artist choreographed by herself watercolour was the first major tool that I used for many years and because I didn't do an undergrad in art I don't have technical training on oil painting let's say so I went for the ones that were easier for me to use without having been taught how to use them.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

So that's why I began that's how my love affair with watercolour began um and then I also realized that what I enjoy hugely about watercolour I was doing a lot of work on sexuality and sensuality and I liked that kind of tension between this being a medium that a lot of older people use or younger people use for things like landscapes and and then I realized what I also liked is like this endless flow and how the watercolour decided where my pigment would end up sitting and drying and sometimes people were like oh but watercolor is really hard because you can't erase anything but the other thing I I often do is I work on smaller scales so it's easier for me to like just move on and start again if something doesn't work I won't try and fix it. I'll just learn and move along. The main reason I like to collaborate with these organic materials is because I truly believe that there are external energies or whatever and unseen things that are helping each of us that are guiding each of us. So when I go into the studio in the morning the first thing I will do is fill up my water pot and I will talk to the water I know this sounds insane but you know like I actually will talk to my water and I say thank you for helping me today and this is what we're gonna do and and then I go and I light a candle and I'll set the same intention and then I'll go through my crystals and each one has a different so for example like a I will I will go first to my selenite which is for cleansing I will clean the space and then I'll open my session this is selenite they say that if light was a crystal it would be selenite but this has cleansing and healing properties and so I open the session and I try and put a bubble of protection around what's going to happen in the studio today and then the most important crystal I have is rose quartz because this is about self-love so if I want to remove all the doubts I believe that if I have a moment with my rose quartz I will be able to increase the amount of self-love and it doesn't matter whether all of this is real or not it helps me and my work. So but just to say that my my routine when I start is the same as why I use salt and water. It's all about asking for guidance and protection and allowing me the privilege of producing the image I want to produce today.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Support collaborators platforms the world outside the studio is at times mirrored in the work but the work also has influence in the space outside and beyond its realm. How does it work for Anna Maria and for Alex?

SPEAKER_01 28:55

I think the fact that I'm taking poetry digital is talking about where people are and how people are reading I'm not dumbing down my work in order to bring it to these spaces but I am speaking the visual and let's say format languages of the digital in order to be in dialogue and in order to share poetry with a wider audience. I'm a different woman in every room in the kitchen efficient operative as fork quiet in the bedroom tiptoe to avoid discourse the weight of telling you everything is fine nothing happened in the bathroom confessional thoughts bend into curve hungry as the dip that concludes my spine the volume of forward of women who stays in the nursery nostalgic I summon the past a love of distant animals whales and I think that poetry uh has lots to gain by participating in unexpected spaces and people have lots to gain also from encountering poetry in places where they would have maybe not encountered it before and being exposed to its sorcery. I um I think that you know we have to reconcile our personal relationships with the screen it's all it's a very personal one-on-one subjective reconciliation there's no one size fits all for this and if it's not the right space or dynamic for someone then that's something that should be honored. For me there is a joy in sharing my work and in participating in opportunities that present themselves because I'm active in certain ways on online. I really think I'm very hard to pin down in the sense that my work can take the form of an installation it can take the form of sculpture it can take the form of a video work of a series of printed materials and you know even within the sculpture I present books as sculptures I work with 3D printing so there's uh quite a range to my practice and I really like to experiment to innovate. I love working with artisans and different types of makers and I'm very um sort of mindful and happy to shout out the people that I work with a lot of artists for some reason either like to sort of puff up their chest because they do it all or they like to um hide their collaborators and for me it's absolutely wonderful to be able to work with a master paper maker who's been making paper in Madrid for 40 years and you know have a picture with her and share it on social media and say this is Nunche who helped me turn my sheets into paper for a project or this is Javier en Bogotá who works wonders with metallic paint you know or this is Luis the photographer that I like to work with. Why would I not uh seek out partners to create works that are that are wonderful and why would I not elevate the people with whom I work? So I was always in the workforce until I was about to give I mean I think I was eight months pregnant when I stopped working for the first time since I was 16 basically and so you know I gave myself that moment of course I was very lucky that I was in a home that could support me not being part of the workforce for a period of time. And so it was it was the moment when I sat and gathered all my poems into a manuscript and started sending it out. Of course I you know you're really busy with a child but after there's a routine that sort of comes into place I I had mental time there's a lot of empty waiting around when you're with an infant you're waiting for the baby to finish eating you're waiting for the baby to wake up so there's this also solitude that allows for the mind to roam and I think that's really when I was when I just kept coming back to my writing kept writing so much I wrote so so so much at least in a journal and then I also started saying okay I'm gonna start organizing this work this work needs to be packaged and sent out into the world and of course the word processor comes in and printers come in right and organizing a manuscript in a way that makes sense to a reader and a table of contents the practicality of publishing a book which which requires certain tools as well that are important.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

I do think that the act of making it it's very important for people's inner or for my inner for my healing is is very important to put me in that state of flow where I can reconnect to the the rest of the cycle like you say like the the the dreams the state you're in right when you wake up or right when you fall asleep if you go back if I go back into that state of flow then I can I feel like it's more in the same it's aligned it's all aligned whether I'm awake or asleep but I have to get out of my head I have to get out of my ego I have to not read the news I have to be alone I have to look in I have to be very very present to listen to my inner world it's very hard to put myself in any sort of box but there's always some sort of anatomical hint or suggestion in my work but it's not necessarily a human. It could just be like a hint or a suggestion at some sort of entity more explicitly what I'm doing is trying to draw a spirit I guess in a way sometimes I'm trying to draw something more suggestive and sometimes I do actually put humans in there. I mean would you say the painting behind me is figurative this is a group of guys and ancestors let's say watching over yeah it's like a spirit team this painting specifically I made that during a very difficult time for me a few years ago so I personally felt like my team had grown like my support system my ancestors like more people not people more entities more souls were there to support me during a different difficult time that's why I did this one which is a lot more of them than usual but it's it's interesting because yeah I don't know what they look like I just I don't know if they have heads I often hear voices but I don't ever see them so they're probably not figural at all.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Just and finally what perspectives did their practice lift for them?

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Uh my experimentation with AI is rooted in text to image generative AI the AI there where you put language and turn the language into images. I don't write with AI. I write myself pen and paper you know I've been publishing all my work in that manner and will continue to do so. I um very interested Joanna in the ways that we're using language in the era of generative AI because I think it represents an evolution to language. I think there's an evolution to the way we're using punctuation an evolution to the ways that we are using semantics and sentence structure and that's what I'm looking at as a writer and artist this evolution in our use of literacy and what it means to turn language into something literal via the image when you actually can input a text and turn it into a fixed image with generative AI there's an interesting translation happening that I think merits a closer look. Language has been a text-to-image generator for centuries within our minds we've been generating images from language you know since we learn how to speak and tell stories but now we can create fixed images that really place our personal relationships with text versus image front and center so they invite a closer look on a very very um very clear stage where there's a text and here's the image that AI has generated how does it make you feel to see them together is the image anchoring limiting is the text perhaps more of an open door and does this disrupt in some ways our notions of language as a sign system vis-à-vis visual representation that's what I think is interesting. I have a series called Being Borges that works with the work of Jorge Luis Borges, the Argentinian writer where I'm using AI to translate the text that he wrote in Spanish with a woman called Margarita Guerrero a translation by Norman Thomas de Giovanni and then original poetry that I write based on the source text in Spanish and I'm using AI to translate the Spanish prose, English prose and English poetry seeing how these differences in interpretation reveal certain aspects about translation itself and the impossibility really implicit in in translation who knows what's going on absolutely no one can tell you they know the entire truth not even a quantum physicist but what I'm trying what makes the most sense to me is that these visitations or messages or dreams may just be my consciousness existing on several levels.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Does everyone have voices do you is it just intuition is it your gut is it just my gut talking to me I've I had no idea but I definitely feel sometimes a little bit like a puppet on a string so the more I work on surrendering the easier the emotions get but emotions are absolutely fascinating like it's if you can start to observe them and you know all past it does make things a lot easier.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Exhibition This is an independent podcast created and hosted by me Joanna PR Nevers.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

I like your your artist tools things because it's like what is working for you that helps you keep up that dedication and that helps you you know get into the studio and make what you want to make.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

You're a wonderful interviewer Joanne I really loved each question and the thought that went into this I really appreciate that effort the behind the scenes effort so thank you so much for the invitation and for being so thoughtful about it.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

This was such a wonderful experience speaking to two very very different artists who have such an amazing capacity of articulating the most material and technical aspects of the work to the most spiritual societal and cultural and linguistic aspects of it. If you enjoy the episode you can dig further into these topics by going on Substack and subscribing to ArtThinkosaurus if you want to explore my whole page or to Exhibitionist's files you can Google it or you can go on Substack and look for it or very simply you can go to the show's notes and you have a link straight to the page I hate newsletters I don't like writing them and I don't like getting them even though they're very practical. So each time an episode is released you get an essay you get a short ensemble of articles references and biographies of the two people interviewed or any guests that you will have in the episode so it is worth digging into it because we're all both actors and spectators of art and life