Ursula K. Le Guin with curator Catherine Li - ART BOOK CLUB

Le Guin demonstrates how we can totally change the STORY.

But... how does this apply to curating?

Hosted by Joana P. R. Neves.

Catherine Li chose: Ursula K. Le Guin

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00:00 Intro 00:05:10 What does a curator do?00:09:57 The book over which Joana and Catherine bonded00:15:29 The Carrier Bag Theory of Fiction00:23:16 An exhibition the size of a lunchbox00:33:22 Ideas and practicalities of curating00:40:49 Le Guin’s critique of the hero-centric story00:45:55 The curator: hero, opinion maker?00:52:09 Feminism, pre-history and curating00:59:49 The curator as a carrier01:07:23 Traditions and experimentations in curating01:16:59 Le Guin’s vision: process rather than conflict

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, hello, hello, welcome to Exhibition Esters. This is Joanna PR Nevis. I am an independent curator and writer and the host of this podcast. For those who follow the podcast regularly, of course you notice that uh the last episode did not drop, and the reason is very simple. I was traveling for work for the most part of three weeks. If you needed any proof that this is a one-woman show, that's it. You have it. Sometimes these things happen as it so happens to catch the flu, which is precisely why my voice sounds a bit different today. But I'm so so so excited to introduce this new episode to you, which by the way, is also a new segment called Art Book Club. And I'm so proud of this segment, I'm very proud of this episode. It was not easy, I have to tell you, not to drop the episodes because I am a perfectionist, I like everything to be impeccable, but also this is an independent podcast, and if you needed any more incentives to finally click on that link and donate, I think this is it, isn't it? You know, this podcast cannot exist without you, and it can only thrive if you become a member. So there's many ways to do it. You can go on the show's notes, so that's the little blurb below the title of the episode. It's a sort of a description of the episode that you find on all platforms, all podcast platforms, and you have very, very different ways uh to contribute. You can subscribe to the Substack, which by the same token is a way for you to subscribe to the newsletter. So, as you know, I'm a writer, I don't do newsletters, I find them a waste of time, a waste of space. So, usually what I do with the newsletters is that it they become a sort of a text, it they're also filled with links, information. About the episode, this is a segment that I decided to create while talking to my guest, Catherine Lee. The books that my guests bring to the segment were not written with contemporary art in mind. So that's the rule. That's the rule of the game. It has to be a book that is not about contemporary art. And we found out in conversation that one book for us, for both of us, was incredibly important for our idea or notion of what curating is. If you don't know what curating is, basically it's conceptualizing, creating, organizing, promoting exhibitions. I think that the beauty of the fact that you can be influenced by a book or an author, a vision that speaks about something other than your job and bringing it into your own craft means that even if you're not a curator, you can always take something from these episodes. I'll tell you a little secret. I listen to a lot of podcasts about business, about stand-up comedy, acting, because having methodologies from other areas can be useful to your own. So, for example, at a certain moment, believe it or not, I was really stuck when it came to public speaking. So I started listening a lot to stand-up comedians who talk about their craft, and it really inspired me to see how they develop an idea, how they verbalize it, how they lead you to the pun, how they deliver the pun. And it helped me quite a bit. So there's always information you can get that you can apply to your own area, and uh this guest, let me tell you, does not disappoint. She is such an original thinker. So I can tell you now that the book she chose to bring is Ursula K. LeGuin's very, very, very, very short text, The Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. We find out that a very, very small shift in perspective can include a whole community of people. So, without further ado, I will leave you to the episode. As for myself, I am going back to bed, but you! I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did recording it. And don't forget, click on those links, help me continue this amazing adventure that is Exhibition Misters. Let's do this. Welcome to the segment Art Book Club. This is a segment where my guests bring a book that has not been particularly written with contemporary art or even visual art in mind, but which somehow, either on a personal level or on a collective level, it has entered the contemporary art canon. It's my honor to welcome two exhibitionists for the first time the independent curator Catherine Lee. Catherine is a London-based curator. She's very interested in her curating activities and projects in um site-specific events, also in participatory events or projects or exhibitions. She's also interested in digital archives and much more than that. So, Catherine, welcome to Exhibitionists. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Hi, Joanna. Hi, thank you for inviting me for this amazing project. One of the openings you hosted in your project space. We were talking about random topics, about how that it feels like to be a curator. And obviously, our conversation, there's a gap between two of us, as you know, we haven't met before officially, and we have different experiences. Um, you are much more experienced in the industry. I'm an emerging uh curator who just, you know, engaged in this industry for like five years or even less. So and I was amazed by how quick we bonded with each other. Yeah. Um really quick and simple question.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

But that's because you asked the question, didn't you? You asked the question that kind of let me a bit taken above. Not taken aback, but I will it made me think.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

So do you want to say I guess because I always question about the role as a curator, and um and we all know that curator came from the word cure. Um curane in Latin, yes. Yeah. So and I was asking you uh if you can choose uh one word or three words to substitute the word curator, what would you choose? Yeah, would you want to try it again?

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yes, yes, sure. I don't remember what I told you because weirdly I think I've had two conversations recently about that. And I remember, I don't know if it was with you, I remember saying for me, a curator is a space specialist. Looking at a space, understanding a space, yeah, and with everything that it means. It can be the demographic of the people who goes into the space, the space where the space is located, so the the geography, all of it. Did I answer that at the time? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

No, we uh yes, you you mentioned the space. You mentioned us, you know, you reimagine the space is a huge, the most fascinating part for uh for curation. Um because you you said you would like uh thinking about the work, reimagine, you know, how the effects are going to be look like uh once you put all the work um and you will put yourself into the shoes as a uh audience and then you just re- you know, just walk into the space over and over again to re-experience the whole space. Um yes, I remembered that very well. And then I think that was the point I all of a sudden remembered the book Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. And I said I want to be a if I can find a word to substitute the word curator, I want to be a carrier back. Um and this morning I was thinking, is that something new that like recently I took because I read this book, then I think about this um concept. But actually I had the similar thought like five years ago. I remember I was in the interview for the curating course uh for Royal College of Art and I didn't go because the tuition fee was too high. I went to Central San Martin one instead. But I remember I was being asked to answer the question of how how do you see in a curator? I said, I say a curator as an empty box. An empty box uh that is capable of anything, no matter it's beautiful or not beautiful. And that's this is something I just all of a sudden remembered. You remember that, yes. And then this is such an interesting coincidence because when I read the carry a bag, I was oh my god, the idea is so refreshing for me as a curator. I want to be a curator, a person who carrying a bag all the time. And I saw this something really innovating and refreshing, and actually I had the same thought five years ago without reading a single piece of writing like this, and I have very limited experience, like practical experience. I just finished my BA um and I haven't really stepped into the the real industry.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Like so that was That's fascinating because this being an art book club, um so about books, yeah. I'm really interested in the fact that you read a book that in some ways resonated with an instinct that you had before. Yeah. And you found in this book something that you were actually thinking about on your own. And I think that's really fascinating because sometimes we have this idea of writers, thinkers, authors, as the these people who bring a sort of enlightenment to the masses who are learning from them. But actually it's a collective effort. And I think Ursula K. LeGuin talks about that in the book, about this idea of community, and about the fact that you are building something with someone else. Yeah. And that the fact that you thought about that, and the fact that we are thinking in terms of empty spaces where we have to bring something in is really interesting in the sense that it is almost as if it's like a platonic idea where ideas are somewhere and they're external from us, and we just kind of convey them at a certain point, and also brings we also bring them into certain specific contexts. So to explain to our listeners how so how this conversation unfolded, so you were talking about curating, and I remember that when you mentioned the book uh The Carrier Back Theory of Fiction by Ursula K. LeGuin as being imported for curating, I remember saying, What what? You know, I was so surprised because it is a really important book for me as well, and that's why I wanted you to be the first guest of this segment, because I was fascinated by the fact that a book that has nothing to do with curation suddenly was bringing two curators together who both loved the book, probably for very different reasons, and one of them actually had had the idea before and kind of met Ursula K. Le Guin halfway while already having thought about this empty space. So, do you want to talk a little bit about this idea that you have of being really focused in place? So exhibitions that are either on public spaces or oriented towards a site specific or a site where they happen, the idea of participation. So, what in your career has have you organized that would correspond to these ideas?

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Well, I think that um this question links to to many different theories like the poetic of space. Um so in terms of the space-related uh practice, I did a lot of research towards participatory art and um my question was always about um how a space is able to um cultivate a community and and through participation, how a community or people entering the space could make changes to the space. Um and then this kind of everlasting interaction make both the space and the community growing. Um and this idea fascinates me and that's really parallel with this uh one of the core ideas in this uh book of uh carrier back serial fiction, which means you know, uh LaQueen was suggesting you you have a bag, you put the things that you found interested into this bag, and and this bag is holding for all the voices, all the experience, all the relationships that are happening just within this tiny space. So she is not suggesting you know you have to expand your practice into like massive space, but in a way, she's suggesting another way you put everything in a as small as possible space to make some um to say what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

So wait, wait, wait, I'm gonna stop you there because that's fascinating, and I know what you're going to talk about, which is a project of yours. But first of all, let's introduce the the text properly. Yes. So Usla Kayle Guin, author, she's known as a science fiction writer. Um to be very specific, she was born on October 21st, 1929. She uh passed away recently, seven years ago, in on the 22nd of January of 2018. She's a Californian born there, she lived there, and she developed her work there. She had a few stints in Europe. She was a Fulbright scholar, so she came to Paris to study, where she met her husband, then she went back, and then she had another stint in Europe to study much later. Uh, but she's basically uh she was a California-based author, and she wrote poetry. She started as a poet, she wrote short stories, she's mainly known as a science fiction writer, but she also wrote absolutely mind-blowing essays. I think she's a marvelous essayist because she knows how to write about complicated things in simple terms. So, do you want to introduce the book? So the book is called The Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. Oh, we have the same one. Yes. Look at that. We have exactly this, and it says used up and uh dirty and folded yours as much as mine.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Exactly, exactly. Thank you so much for allowing me to introduce this amazing text because it's also a good opportunity uh for me to return to this text as it's always so refreshing and inspiring uh every time when I go back, because it always reconnects me to my uh recent thought, to my surroundings, my recent encounters, and it's always giving me a really refreshing idea of how to how I can you know deal with those thoughts. And actually I was thinking about this introduction, I found it so challenging because the whole text is so short and the idea is actually so simple and straightforward. But the depth of it, the constellation of sort of sparks, actually make any kind of brave int introduction re um reduced is um the what this text wants to open up. So I mean I would try to do that. I'm sure you can do it. I'm sure you can do it. Um so in short, the carrier back serial of fiction uh was written by Ursula K. LaQuin in 1986. And it was first published in Woman of Fiction, essays by women writing science fiction, edited by Dennis DuPont in 1988. So it is a very short radical essay that reimagines both culture, human history, and storytelling. Based on feminist anthropology, which we can expand on that later, she suggested that uh the first human toe was not a weapon but a contender, a bag for carrying and sharing. From this, she challenged the weapon-shaped or spare-shaped uh hero centered story for battles and conquests, etc. She was proposing instead that fiction can be a carrier back, a vessel for many voices, everyday uh experience and collective survival. So today this idea continues to influence feminist uh ecological writing and as well as for uh artists and curators is is also play a very important role to tell us what is uh another story, what is uh a more uh relational ways of storytelling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, it's a it's a wonderful book. It is true that it has, I mean, Ursula Kayla Gwyn has had a sort of a revival, or maybe discovery. I have to say, not being someone who has um had a an English education, so I arrived as a grown-up to the UK already. I came to Ursula Kay Leguin through Donna Haraway. So I was reading Donna Haraway, who has also become a name that has been kind of thrown around between curators and and contemporary art thinkers and philosophers. And Donna Haraway is someone who is um she has a scientific background, but she now um is a teacher of new ideas. Um I think the course she teaches has a very strange name, like a sort of uh new ideas and narratives in uh contemporary and epistemology, you know, something like this. And I remember reading Donna Haraway specifically about sustainability and about notions of ecology and how to be how to shift your perspective in order to align yourself with the earth and the planet, the biosphere. And she kept referencing Ursula K. Le Guin. And one day I was in a bookshop and I saw this little book, and I thought, oh, this is a great way to read the first story by science fiction author Ursula K. Le Guin, and little did I know it was an essay. So I was really not expecting to read this, and it was uh a really important moment for me. I remember reading this and being feeling elated by the text, and as you say so well, feeling a bit stupid because it's such a simple idea at the same time, like you say so well. Like, what if the most important object? And I'm fascinated by prehistory, by the way. I read a lot about prehistory, and uh I'm not a specialist, obviously, but I try to read as much as I can. And I remember thinking, why did I never Think about that because obviously when you are a person perhaps nomadic, building houses from natural materials that you have to build and build over again, then to try and fight food, isn't it obvious that the first thing you need is something to carry the fruits that you have collected for you and for your friends?

SPEAKER_02 22:21

I remember that remembers me. Um so I when I was when I was a kid, I was fascinated by the novel uh Robinson Crusoe. Me too, yes. And I like I like that novel so much. I read it over and over again because it's so fascinating to see a human being from modern society and all of a sudden through to uh an island and you have to rebuild everything from scratch. And I remember very clearly that the f I couldn't we need to revisit revisit that um that's the next art book.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

I think that's the next episode with exhibitionists.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

I remember very vividly there was uh one chapter is talking about how Robinson is making the pot. And it was right there, wasn't it? And that was right there, and we never like have this kind of really clear sort of uh which toe was most useful.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

You haven't told us how you have come across the book. How did you find out about it? Um when did you read it? How did you feel about it? How how did that happen? How did you encounter this book?

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Um so it was very interesting and also surprising. Um so like a two years ago, actually, last year, uh I did a artistic change project um in which I called out for all London artists to submit a artist lunchbox to me. And therefore, I could carry all the lunchbooks to Vienna uh because I'm going to do a curatorial uh residency over there, so I'm gonna stay in Vienna for like uh ten days. So I'm going to carry all the lunchbox to Vienna and meet another bunch of artists, and then another bunch of each artist from Vienna would receive one launchbox that prepared by London artists. And then the Vienna artist could use the the launchbooks that made by London artists to to create a new work. And then one of the artists who was participating from London, um when he was submitting his books to me, he said, Oh your projects you should read the this text by uh Ursula Queen because your project sounds really similar with uh what this this books uh book suggesting. And I was like, Oh, tell me more. And then I got this book and um I read it uh in Vienna actually during my residency. Found it fascinating because what I was suggesting uh for the artist to do with the the launch box because it's not actually asking people to prepare uh actual lunch. Uh instead I asked everyone to find a box, a lunch box, for example, and uh and look at your studio or your home or wherever your practice is based in and put materials that is uh wanted, wasted, or sus sabotaged in your studio into this very little box. The prompt was really really really uh open. I would say open. Yes. Um even you give me uh a box of air, you say from a studio, that's even fine, as long as you tell me it is uh air from your studio.

unknown 25:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

So it's like anything. Right. Object-based or non-object-based, saying this is all fine. It can't be valuable thing. It can't be. And for example, uh, if you're a painter, you have uh off cut from your canvas, uh a draft or a sketch that you just throw away. Um and you don't want to really throw away because you still want to keep in your studio in case you need it one day. Things like that. Um but I also give a little bit a suggestion that uh I hope those materials or this whole box can reflect you and your practice. But it has to be not in um unvaluable stuff like like rubbish. It has to be rubbish. Things like that. Um and then I I did that open call and just in 10 days I received 25 boxes. Was so funny. And people just carry a little box and come to me. And then and then and then the the artist who was so funny, the artist who was recommending me this book, he told me, oh, this practice is amazing because uh, you know, you always re treat your studio space as a, let's say, a sacred space, a secret space for pr producing artworks. And those artworks have to be, you know, go out of the you know, get out from the studio, go to the galleries, um and be ready for uh the critiques from the public um and curators. And then once you start looking off every corner of your studio, it's just so funny and because you now you all finally realize the whole ecosystem that you build into this studio and those little things that are grown up with you, they are maybe they are rubbish, they are uh drafts, they are sketches, they are uh like you know finished tubes or cut-off foods or stretch bars. You've been accumulating all this but all to serve the essential goal of the studio practice, which is producing artwork. But because you're so focusing on this artwork production, you almost forget all these little things around you. And he found this practice fascinating because once you put your eyes, put your attention to these little things, the whole studio is like a total different thing to you. It's like another world. It's like what you said, it's an ecosystem. It's an ecosystem.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Everything participates, even the unwanted things, like you said, participate and have an active role in this ecosystem. That's what the artist meant, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Yes. And then and then once he started to put in things because he needs to be selective to you know to put things into that very box. Um so and he realized, oh my god, some little things that he never noticed actually contribute a huge part. Maybe like for example, uh a biscuit box that he always ate. Like a kind of biscuit he always ate during the studio practice. And then you now you have really refreshing thought on these biscuits because you have this intimate relationship with this very kind of biscuit. Um and then he put everything into that box, even a sock I remembered very well about his open the box or that oh my god, oh that this this box smells like another world. I mean like all the things and also the small things he made and uh like uh little objects he's also making sculptures using found objects. So this little object he found is really um difficult to use, but he don't want he doesn't want to throw them away, so he kind of accumulated them in the corner of the studio. And he found oh my god, this is fascinating because once you start putting everything in this box, you just feel like your whole journey of studio practice is condensed in this tiny box. And and it feels like they are not um trash anymore. They become the most valuable thing, it becomes a new piece of work. It's called Jacob Clayton, a London-based artist, and whose practice is about um about paintings, about found objects, and also uh things that are playful.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

As soon as you talked about the books, I thought about Marcel Duchamp because he really did think a lot about art, like we think about curating, with as much love as a sharp critical sense as well. And he also created what he called in French La Boite en valise, which means the box in suitcase or the box as suitcase. And so he created a museum in a box with remembers right of his own work. And I remember being also really struck by this and being really interested because I think as curators we always think about the museum with reverence, but also with a sort of a healthy distance also of the artificial setting that the museum can be as well. Would you agree with that? How did you come? What how you agree only with the respect, not with the distance?

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Oh, the distance, yes, I do I do agree with the distance, yes. I know the distance creates the aura.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yes, it creates the aura, but also in some ways, we kind of also know that exhibitions occur in many other kinds of spaces other than museums. So artists-run spaces, pop-up spaces, spaces that are not white cubes. It's very rare that actually you get to exhibit work in a white cube. But then you also start to kind of deliriously think, okay, so what if everything, what if the world was a museum and everything was and there's um uh a film called uh Midnight Cowboy, I think, where at a certain time William Burroughs is walking in the street, so the the writer, and with his cane, I think he has a cane and he's showing he's pointing at things with his cane and he's saying, This is a work of art, this is and he's just pointing at things that make up the urban space, basically. So as curators, we do end up in this kind of delirium of what a space can be and what an exhibition space can be. Um, so I'm I'm pretty sure that you have I mean that the way the reason why you thought about the lunch boxes may be rooted in very practical reasons, but also very energy or kind of delirious reasons. How did you come to the idea? So it was very practical because they are portable. Exactly. Exactly which is what Duchamp said about his own museum in the book.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Um I I I saw I saw his um you know his project online as well after I made this, um, because I was looking for reference to uh, you know, find similar projects like, you know, that maybe resonate with me, but in different uh aspects. So um because I was doing this curatorial residencing, uh was supported by Austrian Cultural Forum in London, and um they were supporting me to do a research trip in Vienna for like 10 days. Um and then my goal, they were asking me as a contracted independent curator, they were asked me to select like five artists from Vienna, like Vienna-based five artists, um to collaborate with another five artists. Uh I selected from London to do a final exhibition. And and the selection based on my the same that I came up at the time, which is making making expensive. I was interested in how artists can use one single material to make things expensive. It can be tangibly in expensive, like huge. I yeah, I did select one artist who makes huge things. Or you can come up with tiny ideas, but you are so obsessed with this tiny idea, you just keep repeating, repeating, repeating. So some artists I selected also, um, their practice also involves reputation. Um so I had this very initial idea, but I found it's really limiting for me to just select five artists from both London and Vienna. And I want to expand this idea. And and then I'll I was thinking, okay, I'm going to stay in Vienna for more than 10 days. I can definitely do more things than just, you know, like having conversation with artists or, you know, visiting museums. I can definitely do something more interactive with local artists. Um and then I was thinking like how I can make something, make the connection better between the London art thing and Vienna Art thing. I need to start from people. And and then but I need to find a really key portal for them to connect with each other. Um and and it has to be practical because I don't have budget to support me bring a massive project back and forth or that's what I wanted to get to.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Because I love the fact that in the book the the first thing that is mentioned is food. As a sort of a really basic, we'll go into that, so I'll I will explain that later, but one of the references made is the way people fed themselves in prehistory in the book, in the in Usla K. Lewin's text. And what I loved about that text is that it connects the most world-building uh value-oriented theory through the most practical thing, which is how to keep alive, how to get food, and what kind of diet to have in order to have a good living, and to raise kids, and to just live as a community. And you raised this issue, and in curating, a lot of the times you have that terrifying situation where you have an idea for a project, but then you have the shipping costs, and then you have also the costs that come with building a sonography in the space. So there's a lot of costs that people don't think about when you're creating an exhibition, and when you're making decisions for an exhibition, particularly exhibitions, there are these kind of programs of oh, we're going to connect this city and that other city, and then as a curator, you're like, you have 2,000 pounds of budget, and you think this cannot work. I'm not, I don't want to say that you had a very small budget, that's not what I'm saying. I'm exaggerating is hyperbole. But those are kind of the people think of curators as dealing with big ideas, but we also deal with very, very, very practical things, which I think is why this book resonates so much with curating as well.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Yeah, you have to survive. And in order to survive, we have to come up with the most simple, but we think it's innovative ideas. Yeah. Um yes, and another important thing is then another core point uh from this book is how to make things more collective. Because you need to think about, you know, you need to be able to create something, a create space that is capable to hold more things, more voices. To me, for this project the same, and I hate this. I mean, I of course I enjoy, I have this kind of power, I have to admit it, to be able to select the artists I like to collaborate with uh towards the exhibition in the end. But at the same time I hate this idea, um, because I was I would think, why the how I I why should be me holding this power of selecting those artists and artists they need to be selected in most cases. And then why I should have this cleaning power, you know, and I hate this. Um that's why I found participatory art is so fascinating because you give people options and and these options are uh open for to everyone. You can participate if you like. So this is like more uh mutual beneficial collaboration instead of me giving you opportunity. So I so that's why I want to create this kind of open core-based uh participatory art so people submit as they like and people can participate to interpret the launch box afterwards as they want. So and that opens up opens for more voices and and I don't have to do the selection. Um and I remembered when I was collecting the books, I was carrying my luggage. Um I was collecting so some artists they submit uh to me in person, but some of them they said, Oh, if if it would be great if you you can help, if you can collect the books, and I'm happy to do that. So I did a really quick travel around London um between artist studios, and I was collecting with my luggage, and one of the artists said, Oh my god, I like this open call because you are not selecting.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

It's like she was hugging me like I like this way of you know, you organize an open call. Another thing that us La Kaye Le Guin does is to challenge the notion of the hero. Yeah. So she kind of gives you a s a starting point to the book where you think she's headed towards um an explanation of what's the structure of storytelling, what makes a good story. And so she starts by describing something really interesting, which is that um contrary to what we believe, it was so the the prehistoric and Neolithic uh diet was very much uh vegetable-based, nut-based, uh perhaps adding uh bugs and mollusks, as she says, and little rats, rabbits, so there wasn't much hunting. And so she says something that I find really, really interesting, which again comes to this notion of practicalities, which is that the average, so I'm quoting here, the average prehistoric person could make a nice living in about a 15-hour work week. End of quote. And so she's saying that because of foraging, basically, because there was a real knowledge of the environment, you knew where the rabbit would come if you really needed some protein. Uh, but basically, she's very focused on wild oats, because oats really are extremely nourishing and are the basis of the foods that was apparently, or at the time, I don't know how studies are at at the moment, but at the time was a big part of the basis of um food. And so she talks about these 15 hours of subsistence as leading to a really nice life where people who could sing would sing by the fire, those who could sew would sew, those who could be funny were making you know a spectacle of themselves to make other people laugh, but remained the skillless people, the people who didn't have any particular talent, who maybe were getting a bit bored, and so therefore decided to go hunting big game, so hunting the mammoth. And I love how she shifts, and I remember reading this at the time, and not quite, because she speaks in the first person, so she puts herself in the place of someone who was a prehistoric person, yeah, and she says, um, so quote, it is hard to tell a real gripping tale of how I wrested a wild oat seed from its husk, and then another, and then another, and then another, and then another, and then I scratched my nap bites, and all said something funny, and we went to the creek and got a drink and watched Newt's for a while, and then I found another patch of oats. Unquote. So she's talking in the first person, and she's saying, I can't fight uh or I m my story isn't as Interesting as the story that the hunters are bringing into the community. So what they're bringing is not only an action, but they're also bringing a hero. So the story not only has action, it has a hero, it is powerful. And so as I was reading this, I was thinking, oh, so she's giving us the structure of, you know, basically the basic thing that you study when you're studying literature in school, which is you need to have this, and then you need to have a crisis, and then someone solves the crisis, there's an opposition, then there's a victory, and then the story's over. And I was a bit disappointed until she flips the script, which I should have seen coming, obviously, when she started talking about the skillless people who become hunters, and she changes the perspective completely by bringing up Virginia Wolf. It's a really like you say, it's a very simple text, but she goes very far. So she brings V Virginia Wolf up, and then she brings someone who I didn't know who was Elizabeth Fisher, uh, who was a writer and an editor who published the book called Women's Cre. Well, actually, the she doesn't quote the whole title in the text. So the book is called Um Woman's Creation, Sexual Evolution and the Shaping of Society. Exactly. And it was um nominated for a Pulitzer Prize in 1979 and I think published in 1977. So suddenly the the story is completely flipped, the perspectives are completely different, and that that's when I was hit like a ton of bricks by reading this thing. Um and it is a little bit, there's a parallel there with the notion of the curator as hero.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

But did you did you Yeah, it's like what I just mentioned, like I don't want to have that kind of superpower of being able to save or kill certain people. Um exactly. That's why I feel so resonated with. And also, if we look ahead, uh there is someone who is more superpower, have more superpowers, more like a hero, and someone is beyond my league, and I can't even say him or she or they and I can't maybe I will be realized um when I was killed. I mean, all of a sudden, you know what I mean? Like it's really it's it's really parallel with this whole world. I mean, especially in art industry, there's always certain powerful or dominating voices that leading the trend or or manipulating the market that we can't even say.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah, the opinion, yeah, we can't name names. Well, the the opinion maker. Well, in the past we can. For example, when I studied curating, I remember that my teachers, who were basically male, I I must say, were had this reverence towards Harold Zeman, for example, who was presented as this genius. So suddenly there was a shift when I was younger and studied philosophy and then went into aesthetics and then decided to do a master's in curating studies. There was this shift between the artist as the hero, and then I was fed this story as no, no, no, you are the hero, the curator is the hero, you're the one who is the opinion maker. Look at Harold Zeman, and I remember because I come from literature, from my first love was writing, literature, fiction, and I remember when attitudes become form, so the name of the big documentary exhibition that uh Zeman uh curated, I believe in 1968. 69. So I remember live in your head when attitudes become form, this mega title, and being someone who's very, very taken by words, I remember thinking, oh my, oh my, this is such an incredible title. This is life-changing because it doesn't really describe or doesn't it doesn't, it's not contained by uh movements, names of movements, it kind of opens up the minds to whatever everyone was doing at the time. And you kind of are fascinated by this figure, and I was much more interested in the way he had come to that vision of things rather than how he worked, what was possible, why were the names, why was that group of artists important at the time? But one must also say that Harold Zaman then curated another exhibition where artists invited friends. So there was this idea which kind of opened up the scope of who of the decisional power of the curator, but maybe it also emphasized what you were just describing, which is as an opinion maker, a curator invites the people they know and organizes exhibitions with their friends.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Um and to me, I I always like keep questioning myself every time when I curate a show, because I did curate some a lot of group shows, and I I'm not going to deny that I'm never like invite my close friend. Instead, I always invite people around me. Like because even they are not close, but because of my circle, because of my maybe my culture background, also my experience shaped the very particular people, group of people around me, and I can only see them. I can also see people like uh apart from like those group of people, but the thing is something might stop me from very inside. Maybe they are not really approachable to me. But the thing is, I would say I would definitely keep trying to approach the people that are not in my because I'm expanding this circle by inviting more people that I have I have no common friend with, I have no um overlap ways. So and I found it's fascinating all the time because every time I always always uh I've been rejected by artists a few times. Um even I bring budget, bring artist fee uh to them, is there's still always a execute a reason for them to reject me. And multiple reasons, maybe my tutorial reproach or pre my tutorial premise doesn't really resonate with them, they found it irrelevant. That's all fine, but I do have uh experience with artists who have no idea who the hell am I, who are more very experienced in the industry, but they still are like very open, very kind, and um embracing the new ideas and embracing to collaborate with new people. And that gave me a lot of motivation. And that is also one of the central um I guess suggestion from this book as well is you you have to make yourself be capable of holding more things. Therefore, this this very this container of you, your world or your uh friend circle can be able to create a more exciting story. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

I'm interested in the ethical um concern and priority of curating not being not undermining the expertise that you have, because if you sit with another curator with exactly the same profile as you, you will have your expertise, they will have their expertise, which will probably not be the same. So Elizabeth Fisher is a really interesting character because she I thought she was an anthropologist, but actually she isn't. She was a writer who then produced this book, which is a feminist book, first and foremost, that draws on sociology, ethnology, and anthropology, and that says that the women were the first inventors of the um hunter-gatherer phase. Which is really interesting. And so she starts by saying, Why are women considered as property that has been exchanged and sold? So that's one of the first questions of the book. And she associates our idea of nature with the idea of women. So nature is also something to be conquered and possessed as much as the female body. Uh, Usla Kaye Le Guin directly quotes the book very quickly in the text. I'm interested here in the question of narratives that you raised, which is the main narrative and the underlying communitarian narratives that are being overlooked. So for me, when I read the the text, it the the feminist perspective was really interesting because and I see the way you read it as it being really effective, because it's not only defending a female perspective of nature, of life, of anthropology, and of knowledge. It is saying you call this female and you put this in that role, but actually this is all about community.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

Yeah. I when I doing the the curatorial practice, um and I I never think I mean this is something, as you just said, you think I have more experience, but I if I have to count it, I don't think I have really a long profile, but I treat every uh project like uh a child. And it's like something I need to protect with all my effort. And that's why I think uh overthink even too much. I worried about, oh, is the participant happy with the result? I need to ask them for the consent for sure. If I need to mention them in the future, I have to credit them properly, things like that. So I build a website to document all the launch books. So I might I may be a feminist curator, but I never realize it. That is a better way of phrase it. So I do things based on my uh instinct. So I do things because I feel it's right, because it's my inner soul is calling me to do this. Therefore, I guess because I'm feel uh female in the end, that explains how I do things in that way. So I would rather interpret in this way because I never say okay, I'm a feminist artist, so I'm a feminist curator, so I do everything feministly. Okay, I will realize, oh my god, this is so beautiful. But I never do that with very particular intention. I follow my very instinct. So um and another thing I found this really also very feminist, but very natural to me is uh be able to gather things, to think about future, to think about longer future, to be able to uh gather resources and sustain the current um make the this project uh sustainable. There's something really, really natural.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

It's interesting that you were saying talking about sustainability and availability as well, accessibility.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

It's something nowadays, like you know, I work in UL. We've been Cape Education, like Cape of London. Yeah, University of Arts London. Uh as staff member, we always have this kind of session of you know how to make your your your session or how to make the project more accessible, more um uh diverse, more sustainable. It's something that people keep yelling all the time nowadays. The thing is it's something so natural. That's why this book fascinates me. It's like we've been yelling those manifestos all the time, and we encourage everyone to be accessible, be sustainable. But people, prehistory people already been doing that without any single thought of what is exactly sustainable.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

So and that is really refreshing for me. Um and then once you understand why people are doing this, you will be able to doing everything more naturally, more really follow your heart more genuinely, instead of just to tick the box.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

You were talking about prehistory and you're talking about the way the Asla K. Lewin describes the way the pr the Neolithic people live. So in a sort of a harmonious relationship with things, the exhibition space in is a museum, is an art center. But you're seeing that maybe the exhibition space is something else, is somewhere else.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

To answer this question, uh also I also want to mention the very emotional point uh for me and also why this book uh resonated with me, especially when uh LaQueen is talking about woman or um or a kind of man that is able to uh making a sack or carrying a s a bag to hold things, together things, to uh open up things for more people, for longer future. And that's resonated with me because this kind of care embedded in her text uh is really important to me throughout my all my curator project, and I didn't even realize that. So that very moment was um I put when I was doing this artist launchboxing, um I put all the launchbox, was about 25 launchboxes, into uh a luggage. So I didn't even prepare a lot of my um my clothes because I need to save space. I need to save space I didn't wonder about that. I well I wear two uh jack coats with me when I was uh landing the plan. But this is really ambitious to make the whole space accessible to everyone. This is very ambitious. Um, but I would try my best, and I'm being learning and also improving. So but this would be my lo definitely a huge part of my learning journey as a curator.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

You're not at the center of the operation, you're not the decision maker, and you are not the person who's the hero, right? We were talking about establishing a parallel between the curator and the hero. But I would argue that by setting up such an original frame of work and such an original setting of people sending you their lunchboxes, you going into the studio to collect a lunchbox that you gave a prompt for, and then carrying the lunchboxes to Vienna, and then creating this almost performative distribution of the lunchboxes, and rearranging the workshop uh setting, I think you render yourself far more visible and far more remarkable than any person who would just have sent an email to an artist saying, I want to borrow that work of yours, please. They would have sent yes, speak to my gallery or speak to me if they don't have a gallery, fill in in the loan forms, the work is shipped, they're invited to the uh inauguration or not. And in some ways, the curator becomes really unremarkable because they're just a person who had an idea, contacted them, you know, make perhaps an effort to send a text, explain the idea, do a zoom call, but then the idea of curating is that the artist is at the forefront of the exhibition, it's not you, but here you are much more visible as someone who is and you're making the carrier visible. And my arg my the second part of my argument would be I think that the carrier is a really important object because it requires if you think about it, and you were talking about Robinson Crusoe in the beginning of the episode, and the the fact that a whole chapter is dedicated at creating a pot, it's not easy to make a container when you live in a prehistoric time. It means that you have to weave for hours and hours and hours and hours. You have to work on the material, you have to create fabric for Christ's sakes, which is just unimaginable when you think about it. That you had to make fabric, like with your bare hands, of course, with your stencils and tools and obviously lots of traditions that were passed on from generation to generation, but still the container is a beautiful object in itself that requires so much skill. So, in some ways, you kind of descended from your pedestal of the curator as the maximum authority. You placed yourself in a creative level alongside the artists in some ways, I feel.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Thank you. I mean, this is a very interesting comment on what I just, you know, on this project also on my uh way of being a curator. Something I found really relevant with um r resonated with what uh La Queen said because she very very humbly said she didn't disagree with the hero center story. She just said she differs with all this kind of story. Or maybe she's not human at all. If a human means you need to kill, you need to use a weapon, then she's not human at all. And this is where she translates to being uh maybe a defective human.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

Do you mind if I leave if I read the passage? Because you you are quite right. It's such a beautiful um the society, the civilization they were talking about, these theoreticians, was evidently theirs. They owned it, they liked it, they were human, fully human, bashing, sticking, thrusting, killing. Wanting to be human too, I sought for evidence that I was. But if that's what it took to make a weapon and kill with it, then evidently I was either extremely defective as a human being or not human at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

Yeah, I guess I guess I just really like the way she um disagreed with this kind of uh you know a haunting story, but she didn't say oh I disagree. She said she says instead she said, Okay, if that if that means being a human is that you are human, then I'm not human at all because I'm not like this kind of people and I don't like killing. So I um that's why I feel like when you were talking about my project, you know, you said I did too much. Like um I did not say you did too much.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:45

I said you did you did something very uh you were weaving, basically. You were weaving the container, which is you you you did uh a huge amount of work that put you in the place of inquiry, of questioning for the artists and for the other people involved in the project.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:09

Yeah, and but yeah, it's also as you said, like the normal typical understanding of uh being a curator is like writing emails, approach artists, approach galleries, approach collectors. They're all like really, let's say, intelligent work. You sit in front of your laptop and then you and then you organize your thoughts, you deliver um the project in this way. But to me, I mean, I'm not denying I also like being curator like this. Most of the work I have I've done in front of my laptop. But to me, this project is so unique for me is I I literally uh like you said, I waved the whole project with my own bare hands. And that's something I love. so much from this project because um because this kind of hand on experience cannot be replaced by any kind of um you know uh laptop based work um and again and uh I I re I feel when I was on the plan and when I was carrying the the luggage to another city I feel like I kind of understanding curator more like carrying and carrying and that was really refreshing and I want to be a curator like this because I felt a really a deep pleasure of doing that and I know there was a lot of la laborious work carrying around um traveling around but I I'm not saying but those all this lab labor, all this work, they are part of this whole project making this project available for more people making every participant comfortable with participating to this project making um making the connection making the whole atmosphere the whole experience um something uh into something that they they kind of never experienced before is something I really really want to achieve um and that drives me to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

I think our conversation started by us saying that idea that we you thought you had actually many people have had that idea before you're just carrying that idea right but the way you carry it and that is at least making a decision of carrying that and not something else so you are the person bringing that change should that be celebrated as a heroic thing? I don't think so it's just a thing it's just an a happen it's just an exhibit even artists I think shouldn't be celebrated like that even Ursula K. Lewin should not be and she's the first one to say this is not my idea this is Elizabeth Elizabeth's idea. So no one should be put in the pedestal no that's what I think not artists not writers not curators not podcasters not older people not younger people but it is a thing it is a reality that I have 20 year career you have a five year career I um know Portuguese history you know I don't know what history you knew and so we all have competences and we all bring something to the table and we all have value and I think that you it's important to know one's value it's important to respect others but before you respect others you have to respect yourself as well and I think this consciousness of your your perspective is very important and it an empty box is not just an empty box it is made in a certain material yeah it was designed in a certain way there's no neutrality and also the thing the the thing that you put into the box also matters a lot um like that yeah more so yeah so back to the the the the launch box project I mean without those artists those very open artists who are so excited with this kind of idea and without their contribution they are really really generous some of the the books they submitted was like so beautiful like a treasure box I have a question for you which is the so the the the value of I I'm intrigued by what you said which I I don't think I've ever thought about which is this idea of carrying I'm really interested in that idea of being a carrier of something as a curator what what does that mean in terms of action and how what do you see yourself carrying beyond the artwork obviously uh I think this is very uh very good question and also been thinking about that a lot like why would I like to describe myself as uh a carrier instead of yeah I found it's more accurate than curator um because curator feels like I'm a doctor I'm doing some surgery absolutely with to the artwork then they are not evil or a wellness a wellness provider because you're healing or something yeah you are feeling something but uh it's it's more like you kind of presume that the artwork they are evil it makes me feel like I'm a person who is walking on this journey of being a curator and on this journey um I might encounter many things.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

I encountered you today tomorrow I might encounter another person uh if I'm watching a a TV program I encounter some thoughts so all these encounters um are very important to me if I see myself as curator.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

I think that's a really interesting point it's a beautiful way of putting it I have to say and also I think the interesting point is the personal aspect of it was it intentional or do you really believe that it's a personal personal preference or a that curating is um bound to the person's experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

I would say very much so although we would try to um I would try to avoid make everything too personal but the thing is it's something you can't really avoid it's something because I'm a person in the end uh I would definitely but my my my choice I would say my choice might be made even before me. So it might be made because of my culture because all the education I received because this whole environment is fading me with some information therefore I made my choice and this choice is made in c by the combination of my my personal preference and the wider broader culture context so I embrace uh my this this fact that I might make some decision because this is my personal decision. But also I think it's something more beyond is driven me to do that decision. Also the description I just used might be a bit abstract like a person carrying a bag on a journey but I think this is the most accurate way to describe my my feeling as being a curator because you do encounter so many new things and the most important things having this open mind and always aware that you are on the journey that you are observing you are absorbing things around you the informations um and you feel responsible for you feel responsible because because you since you have this finished this action of collecting things it was like okay this idea is so fascinating I need to put on my list and I will think about that later so so so to end this really lovely uh conversation uh where I learned so much and kind of shifted perspectives which I think is what this book is about is about shifting perspectives in a way that seems so obvious and yet you haven't been looking at so I feel that that's what you brought to me um today.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

Why don't we choose the bits in the final part of the text that you could read so do you want to read your your final paragraph towards the end?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:39

Oh yes uh because this paragraph is mentioned something we haven't yet um mentioned but I think it's it's good enough to understand what uh Lequin's trying to suggest so this paragraph is saying one relationship among elements in the novel may well be that of conflicts but the reduction of narrative to conflicts is absurd. Conflicts, competition, stress, struggle etc within the narrative conceived as carrier back or belly or books or house or medicine bundle may be seen as necessary elements of a whole which itself cannot be characterized either as conflicts or as harmony, since its purpose is neither resolution nor stasis but continuing process.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:34

Yeah and what's funny is that my excerpt is the next paragraph That's good so this is really interesting because in some ways do you think she's saying that that the only she's not against conflict no that conflict is just a small part.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:57

Yes it's is she's trying to uh decentralize the idea of conflicts because as you said at the very beginning when you study literature uh you are taught that the conflicts are they are main uh main reason to drive the whole narrative but for Lequin narrative is it's just part of the story and it's the same with all the other elements as a whole and the final purpose for the whole story um of the whole story to interpret to to in incorporating the conflicts is just trying to make everything take going. It's not the the ultimate goal is not to highlight the result or the outcome of these conflicts.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:48

And so in some ways you're having a really narrow perspective of what being alive is rather than expanding like you were saying in the beginning like that your goal is expansion. I highlighted so what comes next which is so she says quote finally it's clear that the hero does not look well in this bag he needs a stage or a pedestal or a pinnacle you put him in a bag and he looks like a rabbit like a potato that is why I like novels instead of heroes they have people in them very beautiful she's incredible what a small text I think it's probably gonna be the smaller text the smallest text someone's gonna bring to the art book club segment and yet and so yeah well thank you so so so so much this was so pleasurable and so enlightening and such a pleasure also to revisit this text. So thank you so so much Catherine.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:50

I mean thank you I mean I it was such a long conversation but for me it was really I mean I was able to keep energetic all the time because you were so you know the conversation was so intriguing and you will always be able to you know mention something that I also never really think about before and you you let me to because led me to to reflect on my projects once again to reflect on my career as a curator or my perception of being a curator once again. I mean this is lovely.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:27

Thank you so much Joanna listen I hope you come back and um to you dear listeners uh thank you so much for sticking around this has been a huge pleasure Catherine did say it was a very long conversation um so you will know that this will have been edited quite a bit we did talk for more than two hours so yeah thanks again and bye bye Exhibitionists is an independent podcast created and hosted by me, Joanna Pierre Nevis. We have episodes every two weeks and this season, season three is a bit of a turning point we have five new episode types from more experimental art travelogues or art stories to conversational formats about solo exhibitions with people who are not part of the industry. Because we're all both actors and spectators of art and life if you're new here you have a whole catalogue of episodes to enjoy. Discover them at your own pace