Legacy Talks by Legacy Architect
Real conversations with real people about the stories that shaped them and the legacy they are building. Hosted by Katarzyna Krawiecka, founder of Legacy Architect.
Legacy Talks by Legacy Architect
The Quiet Truth Behind the World's Biggest Shows | Christopher Ma | Legacy Talks 04
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There is a version of success that looks amazing from the outside.
The lights. The stage. The music. The applause.
Christopher Ma has lived inside that world for years. As an International Musical Director he has worked across continents, from India to Spain, directing some of the most iconic productions in the world. His credits include Wicked, The Great Gatsby, Newsies, Why Am I So Single? and Disney. He has stood in the wings of stages that most musicians only dream of. And he has done it night after night, country after country, holding everything together while nobody in the audience ever knew his name.
But the story he came to tell today is not the one you would expect.
Because behind every show, behind every standing ovation, there is a person. And that person has a story that almost never gets told.
In this episode Christopher and Katarzyna talk about what it truly means to live a life in music, what it costs to be invisible every night while holding everything together for everyone else, the moment sitting in a theatre audience that changed the direction of his entire life, what he had to let go of and who he had to stop being to become who he is now, how Wicked, a story about being misunderstood, became deeply personal, what the hardest part of this life really is and why most people have it completely wrong, and what he would whisper to his younger self just before the moment that changed everything.
Website: http://chrisma.uk
This is not a conversation about a career. It is a conversation about a human being who chose the harder path and found out it was the only one worth taking.
The most important journey any of us takes is not across continents. It is the one back to ourselves.
Guest: Christopher Ma, International Musical Director. Credits include Wicked, The Great Gatsby, Newsies, Why Am I So Single? and Disney. Currently working with Disney.
Host: Katarzyna Krawiecka, author, family constellations practitioner, founder of Legacy Architects.
Subscribe to Legacy Talks: / @legacytalksbylegacyarchitect
If you have a story the world needs to hear, come and find me.
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Ladies and gents, there is a version of success that looks amazing from the outside. The lights, the stage, the music, the applause. My guest today has lived inside that world for some time. As a musical director, he has worked across continents, India, Spain. Stages at the most musicians only dream of. But the story he is here to tell you is not the one you would expect. Chris Ma, welcome to Legacy Talks. I'm really glad that you're here with me today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01That's that's a real, real pleasure. Chris, I'm not going to ask you what you do. I want to ask you who are you when no one is watching? When the show is over, everyone has gone home, and you're alone. Who is that person?
SPEAKER_02That person is someone who enjoys a lot of food and loves a glass of wine, who likes his own space and being quiet and just enjoy serenity.
SPEAKER_01What food would you go for?
SPEAKER_02I love all kinds of food. I I just like tasty food. I know that doesn't really sum it up, but but it's just food that's well made, um, you know, like full of flavour, depths of flavour. I like things that's bold and flavorsome. So like things like a good bolognese always goes a long way, or a Sunday roast, that always goes a long way for me. Um again, same same with going out. I tend to like to eat food that's full of flavour. Something like that, just tickle my my senses. That's uh that would be the kind of food that I like to eat.
SPEAKER_01Same to invite you for for some Polish food.
SPEAKER_02Definitely. Oh my gosh, I love Polish food.
SPEAKER_01What does music give you that nothing else can?
SPEAKER_02Well, that's a good question. I mean, music, I think a lot of people will relate to this, which is it gives you escape. So a lot of the time, you know, people turn to music or and and also music lives in all of our lives, whether you like it or not, and how you interpret music, you know, just it's just all around us. And I think the music that we we listen to a lot of the time are people's way to escape. And whether it's pop music, classical music, it doesn't really matter what what you define music is, it's it is a means of escape. TV uses it, film uses it, concerts uses it. Again, like depending on what medium you are, I think it is an escape, which not many things can give you.
SPEAKER_01Then I think that there's a th therapeutic element of it. Completely, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And the music allow us to feel and it is a way of expression as well. A lot of the, you know, composers from not just from recent years, but all the way going back to, you know, I don't even mean like Mozart or Beth and I just mean even before that, music has always been a part of our lives. That's the ancient times, you know, even biblical times or pre-biblical times, music has always been a part of culture. It doesn't matter which culture you're from, you know, you can always find music in every single culture, and and it just means it's like language. And people do say music is a language because it is, is a ways of communication, um, and it is the only language that is universal, that you don't need to understand, but you can definitely feel from the way people expressing themselves through their music how they're feeling.
SPEAKER_01Chris, when uh when are you performing? You are in the wings, so the audience doesn't see you, and you are the person behind everything making it all happen. How does it feel to be invisible in that sense?
SPEAKER_02So it it depends on context. So not not every single show that I do is always hidden. Some shows we are hidden and some others we we aren't. But in in the way that this is where I sort of tread between so I'm not the main person who's front and centre, where the audience immediately sees, but I do hold a lot of power because obviously the music, if the music doesn't go the way that we needed it to, then it affects quite a lot of things. But in terms of how does it make me feel, you do feel powerful, and and there's a lot of pressure too at the same time, just because you know, like if if you sort of mistriggered a cue or if you gave a wrong instruction, and if something, therefore, people responded to a wrong instruction, it could really things can go really wrong. And so there's a lot of pressure, and but at the same time, by by not being seen, it sometimes takes away that pressure a little bit, but also I secretly do enjoy that dynamic where I know that I'm I'm an integral part of the cog, but not necessarily being seen. And that suits me actually because I don't necessarily want to be the the 100% focus, but also feel that I'm contributing to a larger machine.
SPEAKER_01That's a great responsibility, isn't it? So you have the whole team of musicians and whoever is with you, and they depend on you on every single performance, sometimes in foreign countries, as you were in India. What do you do on the nights when you're not yourself? Uh for example, you're not okay 100%, but you still have to hold everything together for everyone else.
SPEAKER_02How is that?
SPEAKER_01If you're not yourself 100%, how do you manage that responsibility and how do you guide your team?
SPEAKER_02Well, this is where training comes in and experience comes in, I think. A lot of the time, the the saying that says the show must go on applies in this instance. Just because again, you're not an office by yourself, so you're not just like looking after yourself, but you are actually a, like you said, integral part in a machine. And this is where you just kind of have to sort of put that aside a little bit, and you have to think of the larger picture and you have to be selfless in that moment in time. Yes, like you said, there's a lot of people looking up to me in the sense that they're musicians and actors looking for ways of communicating from me and directing them in real time in the show. But we we all have our difficulties and we all have our challenges every single day. But it is up to you and it is a skill and it's a training, and the more you do it, the easier it becomes. And by you know, turning that part of your brain off and then deliver the product. I talked about being an escape, and sometimes this is a bit of an escape. So it is, you know, if let's say we've we've got some you know upsetting news, or when you're not feeling too well, you rely on, you know, repetition that you've done so far and and actually using this as an opportunity to leave all of that outside and just focusing on what's in front of you. So you know it is that's kind of how we deal with it. Um it is it is hard because every single person has a different way of responding. Um, but I do think that when when we are standing on that podium, we are sitting there about to conduct a show, you know, you just kind of there's like something that you know changes in your brain where it just goes, right, I can't think about whatever that may be for about two hours. And actually that might be a good thing because there's a distraction and it's something that takes your mind off something so you don't spiral. So that's that's kind of I think that's for us, you know, that's how we're gonna deal with it.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing. And I think that when you compare film when things are pre-recorded and when you're in the theatre in front of live audience, that's as you mentioned, that repetition and just an ability to switch yourself off, that's a that's really it's a really good skill to have.
SPEAKER_02It is, and it comes with practice and experience, is don't get me wrong, there are moments that that that's harder than others, um, and people, different people deal with it differently, or will be responding to it differently, but it is uh ultimately a skill and a a soft skill, you know, and um without experience.
SPEAKER_01So is there something about your work that you love but you really don't talk about it?
SPEAKER_02Not really. If I love it, I probably will be talking about it all the time. Um yeah, no, I think that there won't be anything that I love but I don't talk about it in my world, certainly.
SPEAKER_01That's fair. Imagine that so um there's a moment in the past that you were watching a show and something happened inside of you. Um Chris, imagine that you were watching uh shows in the past. Is there any particular uh piece uh that made you feel emotional? So was it a moment, oh, line? Have you got any memory of this?
SPEAKER_02Anything that's just memory like you know, music, art, drama, you know, all of these things. It doesn't really matter what it is. I think for me that gets me the most is when when the piece of is performed or it's filmed or it's acted with heart and with sincerity, that always will get me. It doesn't matter what it is, what the subject matter it is. It could be, you know, someone discovering themselves, or it could be, you know, someone losing their loved ones, or it could be someone realizing their dreams, or someone survived a disaster. Whatever that might be, it doesn't really matter in context, but it always gets to me that when someone is delivering things truthfully and with honesty, and I think because that's so transparent, that's so vulnerable, that is so intimate, for me, that is when things hit me the hardest and where I cherished the moment the most. Yeah, those would be the things. But I can't really give you an example, so to speak. Or maybe the best example is I know as cheese as it sounds, but you know, in like X Factor or Britain's Got Talent, people tell you like the top stories. Whether they're true or not, that's a different question. But um, when they do tell it to you and you say, like, oh, this is all the hardship they've gone through, and this means this much to them, that's why they're doing this. That's that kind of story will be like the best summary of like the things that get to me the most. Or the single mum that's worked three jobs to help fund their children's you know, education, or you know, or child that's been I don't know, I don't want to give too specific examples because there's too many of them. But like anything that tucks on your heartstrings, anything that's said with sincerity, anything that is honest, that is my thing that affects me the most.
SPEAKER_01So do do you feel that it happens more in real life, in live shows, when someone talk talks about a real story, directed to be real? Um, and does it happen to you as well with actors when they perform?
SPEAKER_02Um it doesn't necessarily have to be like a reality situation, because again, you know, people do come to people come and see shows. Uh, there are some crazy fans, phrase it in like a good way, you know, crazy like supportive uh fans who who've seen the show, you know, uh like 50 times, a hundred times. But the the the reason why they come and see the show over and over again is because they feel something, they're affected by something, but they they feel related to. And this is why they come back over and over again. And and I think it's just that it is it's not so much about just real reality, but it's just how people connect to different subject matters and challenges. Which is why, you know, when there's a large ground being covered, whether it's in um musical zen, in reality, or in shows or in film, you know, that's why, you know, it's good to cover all bases because someone will always relate to something, you know, from those moments. And uh from that, that's when they that's when they like, you know, when they feel something, that's when they come back and consume it again and again and again. It's easy to to you know listen to music on Spotify or watch a film, but you know, like when in the case of a stage show where it's live every single night, that's why people come back and watch the show again and again and again.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. When we talk about films and emotions, is there any film you would watch over and over again because you just start to see every time when you watch it?
SPEAKER_02There isn't any films that I watch over and over again, so to speak. I probably like the only ones that I probably watch over and over again are like the Christmas films. So every year when it comes to Christmas, I just watch like the holiday again, you know.
SPEAKER_01Oh yes. My son is obsessed with Home Alone, so we watch it from 1st of December till 24th. Every single day.
SPEAKER_02When you say on repeat, maybe that one is kind of on repeat, but every single year rather than like every two weeks I put it on.
SPEAKER_01And is there a soundtrack? Is there a song that you feel proud of it? That oh gosh, that is a masterpiece.
SPEAKER_02Yes is the answer. There's so many of them, that's the only thing. A lot of it goes back to when I'm like training and studying. You know, there's so many of them. So it's like my classical pieces that I've learned when I was training and studying. Um, a lot of them I don't play anymore, but when I do listen to them again, I'm just like, wow. You know, so one of my absolute favorite pieces are like Rachmananoff piano concerto number two. You know, that's for me is is a masterpiece. And it's again talking about like making you feel something, that really does erupt some emotions inside you. I that's probably one of my all-time favorites, I would say. I don't play it now, but um, whenever you listen to it, just because it's so popular, you sometimes do hear it in films and TV shows, or even on like adverts and things like that. People just play it because it's so famous and it's so relatable. But yeah, no, that's probably one of my favourite pieces.
SPEAKER_01Notice that when you when you talk about feelings and uh how music touches you, your face changes completely. And that's so so that is so beautiful to watch. You said that uh the hardest thing was having to restart and change who you were. And I would like to ask you something a little personal. What did you have to let go uh to make that change happen? Uh when you say change, you mean like on the personal front or professional or I just wanted to decide what did you have which what journey did you have to go through to be where you are as a as a human being, as a um as an artist?
SPEAKER_02I think for me, I I'm still sort of on that journey a little bit, if I'm being honest. I think I I would never finish that journey. For me, what I have to change is because I'm so in my head a lot of the times because I think a lot. So a lot of the time is the saying like I am my biggest hurdle in life. And so what I'm have been trying to do and I'm still trying to do is get out of my own way by not thinking myself out of things. And to change, going back to what you were saying, to change and what I have to let go, and it is in some in some ways, it is letting go of safety. You know, you can't grow if if you're always constantly being comfortable, being safe in a secure environment. So little by little, I have to like let that go a little bit in order for me to take the next step to do the next thing, to find new challenges. But at the same time, for me, that is also very hard. I wouldn't say like, oh, it's just something that I just do like this. It's something that I find very hard to do because I do like my comfort. I like to be safe, I think all of us will. So for me to you know said letting go, you know, I just need to let go of that safety net. And you know, I've I've I found it difficult. And again, for me, I also find you know, like for such a long time I've been associated for one thing, so like being the music person. But if I were to do something different, then I also find that hard because you know, then it comes into imposter syndrome. But the thing is, for me, conceptually, I understand that it doesn't really matter. Like you can people change careers, you know, people divert, people pivot, you know. But for me, I'm just so always ingrained in what I think, what other people think, and making sure that I'm in a safe or safety net. You know, that that for me is my biggest hurdle. And I have been gradually letting go, but at the same time, I do need to do better for myself to let go more and not care too much about what other people think. Don't let myself in my the way that I think to hold me back. So that that is the one thing that I'm have been doing, but I'm still on the journey with myself to to be better on that.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much for sharing this because a lot of teenagers, but not only teenagers, they're so scared to being seen as such, and someone may say something about us we don't like. So for So I really understand what you're saying because I've got two teenage children at home who feel that whatever happens on Instagram is true. And for example, when you're a public figure, there are so many misconceptions, something can be taken out of context. Instead of five-minute conversation, someone can hear five words, and that can be yeah, that can be damaging as well.
SPEAKER_02That's yeah, I guess it's like for me, it's identity. It's it's hard because you know, when you're so defined by one thing or or two things, you know, it's sometimes hard to break away from that and people see you differently, or people will question why you're doing things, and again, I that that's when I feel attacked and and feel am I doing the right thing? And oh, I have to explain myself, maybe I should just not talk about it. Maybe that just again, like that just saves them is protection for myself. But yeah, so it is I I guess it's identity, but you know, I also understand that people can take on multiple identities, you don't have to just be one thing. That's it at the day and age, you know, like so many people are doing multiple things, and it's okay.
SPEAKER_01So, for example, if your thoughts are muddled up, uh something happens and you start being in panic mode, how do you get through the day? Uh what do you say what do you say to yourself that keeps you keeps you going?
SPEAKER_02See, the thing is I've trained myself so well to focus on one focus on things and not let other things intrude. But if I were to say something to myself, I it I I guess it depends on what the scenario is. It's quite hard to talk about an abstract or just a generalized concept because different things will I will have different responses. But I guess from what you are asking, I will probably say to myself, it depends, like I said, it depends what it is. But generally, I would say, well, no one's dying, so let's just carry on.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what I think? That's actually that's actually very helpful because you know, and also there's sometimes there's situations, sometimes you can you can do something about them and sometimes they're out of your control. Um yeah, if something can be corrected, how can we do it if we can't? Okay.
SPEAKER_02And also I I guess I put things into perspective, and this is something that I you know sometimes work with my students as well. When when you know they're so afraid of maybe like singing a slightly higher note, and I was like, Well, you're not doing brain surgery, no one that's what I mean by like, no one's dying. You're that you're not you're not in charge of someone else's life. So how bad could it be? And also, if you really have to think about it, there are some people in a third world country who are starving, who's homeless, who's are much more less fortunate than we are. So is the problem that you're having really a problem, or are you just making it into a problem?
SPEAKER_01Yes, perspective is something that we very often forget.
SPEAKER_02Indeed, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Was there a moment in your life when you looked at yourself and you didn't recognize who were you? Like, oh what are you doing? Uh you know, some because something in you changed and you tried to do things in a different way?
SPEAKER_02I I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I don't say I would say I don't recognize myself. I guess I've been lucky to be brought up in such a way that that I I never well I never've come across a situation where or put myself in a situation where I sort of have to think back and say, oh gosh, who who was I? Like why have I done that? Um maybe I'm wrong, maybe some other people you know who knows me well be like, well, actually I can think of all these times, but in sort of the way that I think about it, in terms of like what I know, probably what you're alluding to, there they really for me, there isn't a chance. Some people say I'm boring because I haven't really done anything that outlandish for me to be like, why did you do that? But but I yeah, I like I said, I think from my upbringing and everything that I've been taught in life, that I've just never actually put myself into a situation where I would say, like in in those kind of words, you know, who who was I? Because I'm not quite sure I can answer that question.
SPEAKER_01That's that's okay, Chris. Um wicked. That's a story about being misunderstood, about being different, um, and about chosen between being yourself and being accepted. Have you ever felt that you had to choose between those two?
SPEAKER_02I would say I haven't needed to choose between the two, luckily, because I I live in a city, a country, and in an industry where being yourself is accepted.
SPEAKER_00And that's a very good thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yes. So, yeah. Um, and I guess you know, being yourself and being accepted almost like goes hand in hand. So, so yeah, I I've I've been very fortunate in that sense where I've I've never really needed to face any controversial situations based on those two things.
SPEAKER_01That's really good. And I think living in uh in England, this is what I found find fascinating. Because I was raised in Poland and I came to England 20 years ago, and I can see how people can flourish, how can they feel that they can be themselves and have their own opinions and not being rejected because of that? I feel that living in England is such a blessing for my children because they can do it. Has there ever been a moment in your life? When you felt that music was not enough for you, that you want to do something else?
SPEAKER_02Well, yes, is the answer. I I wouldn't say it's it's not because it's not enough for me. I would just say music there's so many caveats to this question, I feel. So firstly, it's not that music is not enough. Music is definitely enough. Like I said, music is everywhere, you know, in our lives. So the opportunities that come with music, there's loads. However, with this day and age, even though we live in a very fortunate country, music's not seen as something in the eyes of the wider world. It's seen as a hobby, it's seen as you know, that's something that you do, or it's secondary, let's just say secondary, because it's not sciences, it's not business, and it's not uh um humanities, you know. So therefore, you know, art, music, any creativity, it always comes secondary. So it's not that I don't find it is enough for me, but society and how the politics and the world places the value of creativity becomes secondary, and therefore, what that means is sometimes it's underfunded, sometimes it means there's less opportunities, and that makes it harder for us to just rely on one way of survival. So, having said all of that, so yes is the answer where I say I don't think it's enough, but that not enough is mainly more for security for myself, because again, this day and age, I don't think anyone still believes, especially it like you know, my generation, the younger generation, um believes that one thing will take you all the way to the end to your retirement. You know, whereas back in the boomer days, back in the industrial age, where that is the way forward, but now with this new era of way of life, I think every single person is taking on multiple or the hat wearing different hats, whether they are a musician by night, and then they might be an accountant by day. You know, so we we are doing many different, many more different things. So, yes, I have you know thought about doing other things, but not because music is not enough for me. It's just the way of life for us. We need to diversify and making sure that we cover all bases so we in ourselves are secure and we are not just putting all eggs in one basket. Because this day and age, unfortunately, that's too risky because of how the world has developed and how the internet has developed, how AI came into the world, how you know like the government are you know underfunded or are taking funding away from you know creativity, all of that. So really it's just it's more of a safeguarding thing rather than you know uh a lack of. If I can just do music for the rest of my life, I absolutely will. And also sometimes it's good to you know have a different utilising different part of your brain as well. So, you know, creativity is good for all of us, but again, with everything when it's a bit too much, it can get quite tiresome. So, you know, like when you're constantly creating, uh it does get tiring, and so that's when my you know reality TV show comes into play, and so I can just shut that off a little bit and just like enjoy. But yeah, but also it's good to speak with different people. I I'm a person of like diversity and I like variety. I I enjoy not being too pinned down by routine. So actually, again, going back to what you were saying, you know, in terms of having different things, that also helps me actually be fulfilled and be focused in my music work by having other things on the side. That isn't music. So it's a long, long about way of saying, you know, yes, I do do other things, but it's not because music is not fulfilling me, it's just more for my own personal mental health, well-being. That's why I'm doing other things.
SPEAKER_01I feel that music is home for you. I would like to check what does home mean to you? Is it a place, is it a person, is it a feeling, is it something you do?
SPEAKER_02Home is I think home is where you feel safe and comfortable, for me anyway. So it's not pinned down on location. It could be a person or people, it could be a physical location, of course. But I think home means to me is a place of safety. And however that translates, that's it. I guess like more from more and more, you know, as I get older, you know, the idea of like settling down into one place has become less appealing to me. Because like like all the things I've said, which is like let variety, uh change change of scenery, all of that. And so to to maybe that's partly why I haven't bought a place yet for myself, because I haven't felt a single place have given me the security, the homely feeling yet. Maybe one day there will be, I don't know yet. But currently, you know, I you know I'm going between hotel rooms, I am in different countries. Yes, whilst to a lot of people that sounds like an idea of hell, but to me, actually, it doesn't really bother me, at least not at the moment, anyway. Ask me in the years to time when I've been to 20 other countries and hotel rooms and Airbnbs, I might say differently. But right now, home is just where safety is, comfort, somewhere that I can just switch off. And that could be an Airbnb, that could be, you know, in the flat that I live in, that could be, you know, in anywhere really, in a hotel room. You know, it it's yeah, it's yeah, it's it's quite transient for me currently.
SPEAKER_01I think this, as you mentioned, because you travel a lot, that's because you don't have many things that stop you, it's very actually it's amazing that you can do it because um I'm a published author and I went um to Poland. Our publisher invited us over for a few authors' uh events, and I came I came back to the hotel and I felt so so lonely in the hotel. I wanted to cuddle my cart, I wanted to say goodnight to my kids, and even though I was in a five-star hotel uh with all these fancy things, I just felt that I would like to be somewhere else, and it's really fascinating to hear that you actually love it and you wherever you are, this is where you adapt, and the lifestyle you have is actually part of me is jealous because you've got that you don't you're not attached to one place, but at the same time, don't do you feel that if you travel for, for example, for five more years, you will not be able to find your place in the world, your own place?
SPEAKER_02Well, this is the thing. I've sort of started thinking about this, really. Um I mean, I wouldn't say I wouldn't find my place. If anything, I will find I'm finding multiple locations.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's fair.
SPEAKER_02So uh uh I I do know what you mean. Like some people, as I say, you know, like home for them, like you, by the sounds of it is, like where family is, is people oriented. And so whereas like where if your kids were with you, maybe like in a different country, you probably feel like that could be home. And since I've been traveling more and more and more, you know, like I've I've enjoyed exploring different cultures and countries and food and societies, and there are so many things, you know, like I don't think there's one place that can give you everything. Because yes, in a hotel, you know, yeah, you have all these nice decorations and fluffy cushions, coffee machines, you know, all within reach, you got like beautiful restaurants, but then you know, some people find it a bit sterile. But then equally when you have a home, but then it becomes like you know, you need to call a plumber because your pipes are blocked, or you know, you have to get a cleaner in because you're away for too much. But every single thing has its you know pros and cons, depending how you see it. But for me, like as I travel more and more and more, I'm picking up, you know, oh, I really love that culture over here. I love to experience that more. Oh, I really love the food at that place that I've traveled to because of whatever culture. Oh, the music there is so good. Oh, like there's so many great things about each of the places that I've been to. Oh, oh, that that place feels very safe, you know. Um, I'd love to live there. Or like, oh, that place is, you know, so new and it's everything is like fresh because it's like it's a new city, you know. So so for me, I actually gradually am thinking, like, I don't think eventually I will have one place that I base in. I just do think eventually I'll maybe have two or three places where I travel between them.
SPEAKER_01Based on what you said, I feel you can inspire so many people because you can expand yourself as a human being by learning about other cultures and just pick whatever whatever calls whatever calls you. Uh I live in Kettering in Northamptonshire, and uh there's a place called Geddington, very, very close to us, and there's a Roman road, and Queen's uh uh Queen Victoria for Sir came to Geddington, and I feel that for example, when you compare um people a hundred years ago, uh two hundred years ago, they had two free trips in their lifetimes, and you are able to travel every weekend somewhere else, and that the idea of global village, it's just a perspective is completely different. Like it's it's quite interesting that, for example, you can be anywhere you want with a click of your finger. I feel that what you said about living in multiple places is really really cool, really, really cool. Thank you for this. Um I would like to change subject a little bit. I would like you to think about your whole career. Someone must have said something to you at some point. One thing, this could be a sentence or something that you never forgot and that helped you go in when you needed it the most. What was it and who said it? Someone, the most meaningful piece of advice.
SPEAKER_02Meaningful piece of advice. Well, the most meaningful piece of advice that I've got given, I guess, is to say yes to everything.
SPEAKER_01Yes to everything. Well, how about if you feel inside that you don't want to do something, but do you need to still say yes to it?
SPEAKER_02So when I pass on the advice to my mentees, I caveat it now to say say yes to everything that you feel like you can do a good job at.
SPEAKER_01But if you doubt yourself, then don't do it. So based on this, when would you say yes? When would you say no?
SPEAKER_02There's so many nuances to this. Broadly speaking, firstly you have to for me, I have to feel aligned to it first. Is it a show that I aligned with? Is it is the subject matter that I align with? Is the music do I align with it? Because if I don't, there's no way that I'm gonna do a good job at it. I've done some projects where I took the project purely because I needed the money. And I know it's something that I you know, a show or a project, whatever that may be, is something that I have no interest in. It's still music, don't get me wrong, it's still music, but I've no interest in it. But I said yes because I needed the money. And did I enjoy it? Not really. Did I do a good job? Yes I did. But did I enjoy it? No. Did I did I want to turn up to work? No. Do I want to leave as soon as I can? Yes. So I don't think based on that reaction, maybe I'm, you know, I I'm I just can't really hide things like that. When I'm just not enjoying it, I just can't show it. I I I just show it. Like, just i i I'm not one to like, you know, blag my way through something that I don't enjoy. Yes, in terms of saying yes to things, but now, you know, that's what I say like to my mentees and other people who ask for much advice. Say yes to everything, but only if you know you're gonna do a good job. However, what that means. It could be skill-based. So if someone asks you to do a job that you know you don't have the skills for, not saying that you can't do it later when you've learned it, but right now, this moment in time, may not be a good idea because reputation matters in this industry. Or B, as we talked about, if you have no interest in doing it, don't do it. Because you're not gonna do a good job at it. And when you don't do a good job, again, reputation's everything in our industry. So that would be one of the biggest advice that I've had before, which is say yes to everything. And in some ways, it did get me somewhere, you know, because you can't just say no to everything. I mean you can, but again, that's not gonna get you anywhere when you're starting out. So I set yes to a lot of things, and as I said, you know, there are things that I said yes to that I didn't really have much interest. But I've learned from that experience, and I had, you know, the capacity to learn from it. But nowadays, when everything is so much more, you know, there's so many more people around, so many more people available, you know, people, in my opinion, the younger ones especially, they can't afford to just say yes to things and then learn on the job because actually there are too many people out there who already know who can deliver the job rather than you learning on the job. So that that was my biggest advice, and but yeah, I do live by my own advice now, which is say yes to everything that you know you can do a good job at and not like it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and as you mentioned, you need to filter if it aligns to who you are and what you yeah, if if you feel it's right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think that is isn't just about music, and I think you know, this is where music is like universal, that or translates universally. Like if you don't feel aligned to anything that you're doing, or like or only choose things that you feel aligned to it, you know, it's it's easier said than done, obviously, and sometimes not all of us have the luxury to to have that. Sometimes if you've got bills to pay, you just have to do something. But ultimately, in order I think for people to find fulfillment and satisfaction, you need to do something and live aligned to what you believe in and aligned to what resonates with you.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Chris, I want to ask you about something that's completely different to everything we have talked about so far, and something I have been thinking about it since I knew you were coming. Um I would like you to imagine something. Imagine that I'm deaf. I've never heard a single note in my life. Uh, I'm a linguist and I understand language, I know the words that they carry meaning beyond the uh sounds, so I know syntaxes. Uh I know that communication is more than we that our ear receives. And standing in front of me is a man who has given his own life to music. How do you explain to me what music is? Not what is sound uh what the what it sounds like, but what it actually is.
SPEAKER_02I think music is an expression on something that language and words cannot express. So music is is ultimately a manifestation of an extended emotion.
SPEAKER_01Could you explain this more to me? Because if we have poet poetry and the words, the books, they carry emotions as well.
SPEAKER_02They do, but it's up to you your understanding of that word. That's why I don't read Polish language, because you only know the poetry based or the word's meaning to a specific thing. Whereas, like if I don't know what the vocabulary is in Polish, then I won't relate to that word.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, because you don't know the meaning behind it and it may not necessarily resonate.
SPEAKER_02I can't read it, don't understand, it just looks like scribbles to me. But music, in my opinion, is an expression of an emotional response that you can feel it's an internal feeling. So, in terms of the human voice, what we talk about in theatre is that when words become the emotional too great to express in words, people start to sing. That's why, like all cultures have singing, and it's always during you know, uh uh scenarios and situations and circumstances of extreme emotions. Two examples being weddings and funerals. Almost because it's extreme human uh emotions. Weddings, more likely than not, is going to be a happy occasion. People are thrilled, people are joyous, people are exhilarated. So again, when you're so happy, I'm so happy for you as part of you know the culture. Or or best case, best example would be like after the wedding in the party, what do they do? They always play music for dance because the next step after singing, if singing becomes or emotions becomes too great, and you singing is not enough, in theatre terms, we then dance.
SPEAKER_01So am I okay to say that music amplifies emotions?
SPEAKER_02Completely, which is uh an extension of a human emotion, of course it's amplifying, but like funeral in the other sense, which is you know, you know, of great sadness and it's it's tormented. People are heartbroken, and again, when you when you say heartbroken, it's maybe not singing in the joyous sense, but you know, people sing like like the tribal, African tribal cultures are a great example of this. They sing not because they are singing, but it's an outcry and it's outward expression, outward emotion, where they are crying through song or as a way of expressing their inner emotions. Yeah, again, in theatre terms, which I think a lot of people wouldn't understand or know this, is like when in Lion King, when Mufasa dies, and then the eulogy, the the funeral in The Lion King, when they all sing, that is what I mean.
SPEAKER_01I feel that I understand it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is an outward expression. That's where music comes into play.
SPEAKER_01So on one side, so we have got people, so you explained to me the power of music. Uh and let's imagine that there are people who can hear perfectly and they sit in the audience and the music plays, but they don't feel anything. Why? And what is the difference between someone who hears music and someone who truly feels it? What opens the door? And for example, if the door is closed, can it how can it be opened?
SPEAKER_02Well, there's so many things, because it could be you know, you know, why why do people get, you know, like tearful and joyful or whatever when they listen to professional violinists play, but actually like dreading it when their five-year-old child plays the violin. So one element could be the actual performance is actually not attractive to that person. Now I don't want to be listening to a five-year-old learning the violin, you know, but I will be happily listening to a professional violinist where like they make the violin sing beautifully, where it like directly cuts through to my you know, here where I can feel it. So that's one element potentially. Secondly, is composition. So again, I I love music, but I don't love every composition. Every songwriter, every composer would tell you that not every single thing that they write is a masterpiece. So again, it could be situational, it could be luck, you know, that someone who's hears music don't enjoy it because it's not a medium that they resonate with, it's not a performance that they particularly enjoy. Because those two things could be a thing too. Like I've listened to concerts, I've listened to compositions where I'm like, I've turned it off, or I'm like, I can't listen to this. It's not because I don't love music, it's just like that didn't resonate with me. So that could be an issue. Again, people have preferences. You know, some people love heavy metal music, I don't. Not because I don't appreciate them, it's just like it's not it doesn't speak with me. But some people love it. I love classical music, but most people, maybe who doesn't like it. So again, it's not that it's badly performed or the competition's bad, it's just the medium, it's not uh resonating with that person. Same with musical theatre, really. You know, a lot of my friends as an art form, a lot I say a lot, but a lot of people that sometimes I speak to, they they just don't resonate with that format, but they much prefer watching a ballet. You know, they were just like, oh, it just feels a bit weird that people just like randomly start singing. Whereas like, oh, I understand ballet because like the idea of a ballet is just a whole dance piece. I know some people just don't like both, and that's okay too, it's just all preference. So I think for someone who doesn't feel music or you know they hear it, but they're not feeling it. I think it's just them haven't been exposed to the right kind of music yet for them. Because I think internally, yes, yeah, completely. Because I do think internally all of us, you know, all of us will resonate to something, musically speaking, and it's not but we can't resonate to everything, like with everything in life. There's always like some things that you just connect with, but not everything else. So my my take on that would be they just have to keep listening to different things because they they will eventually find something that they will enjoy.
SPEAKER_01And yes, music needs to be enjoyable, so and I think there's so many different genres and so many different types, everyone will find something for themselves. Completely. Chris, that recording will be made very, very soon, and some musicians may listen to it as well. And imagine that young musicians listen to our conversation. They are talented and they work hard, and if they asked you if it's really worth it, what would you say to them? Something well maybe not something encouraging, you can do it, but something that they might need to hear.
SPEAKER_02What do you mean, is it really worth it?
SPEAKER_01What what w what is with uh pursuing career as a musician?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01Because even like on TikTok, everyone can do live and everyone can sing. There are a lot of uh getting to the right audience is really Easy. And as you mentioned, competition and people who are ready and they just wait for the opportunity to come. There's more and more musicians lining up. And at the same time, we've got artificial intelligence which will change the industry. In the way I can't even describe, if someone would like to pursue a career as a musician, what would you say say to them?
SPEAKER_02I definitely think it's definitely worth it. But then it goes back to uh uh one of the things that I would say is don't be surprised if you need to find yourself doing more than just music. Well, it is worth doing because ultimately it is a passion. It is a passion. Music is a passion. So people do do it because it comes from here. There is a lot of tricky things to navigate in this industry, in this career, not just for my immediate industry, but like in the whole music industry as a whole. You know, you don't need to do a lot to make a living for yourself, but it is tough because a lot of the times you do need to make your own work. So it is definitely not it's what we call it, it's not a career, in the sense that, you know, once you start a job in the corporate sense where you start as an intern, then you go into be a junior something, something, the associate something, something, maybe senior, senior something, and then executive something, and then achieve or whatever. There's not progression as linear as that in the music world because everything is is freelance, you know. So you have to make your own work, you have to be proactive to make sure that that work is carrying on. You are your own business, so you have to market yourself, you have to keep up your skills, you know, you have to keep up on relationships, you know, for you to carry on and keep getting bookings on certain things. So it is definitely worth doing, but just know it comes with a lot of challenges, but you can say about everything the same in that sense. Uh, but also don't be afraid, uh don't be um don't be uh alarmed and don't be surprised if you have to take on multiple roles. So a classic example would be some of my actor friends and some of my musician friends. Like I said before, they might be playing the violin at night, but they're the accountant during the day. You know, you might have to do other things. Or some like it's more popular with actors, but you know, some of them are you know acting at night, but personal training during the day.
SPEAKER_00It's life, isn't it? Sometimes we need to make it.
SPEAKER_02You just have to just know that maybe you have to do more than just one thing, but again, then what this is what we call a portfolio career. So you're not just like defined by one thing. There are some people who can, if they're really top of the game and they're lucky and they're the right place at the right time, and they happen to just do one thing and that's all they do, great. But for most other people, I think a lot of people will have to do, you know, a couple of things or more to make sure that they're covering all bases and pay the bills. A classic example for me is yes, I do perform, but I also teach and I mentor younger musical directors, musicians. So there's like two branches for me already. So there's one that I'm performing, actively doing put myself in front of an audience, and there's another which is a nurturing educational side that I do. I wouldn't say on the side, but like just is another surface of mind that I can offer that is also diversifying my income and but also but it goes hand in hand to what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, and things can be leveraged as well. But for example, when you perform, if you're not there, you don't earn. And for example, what as a teacher, do you do you teach people do you teach your students face to face? Uh do you can you teach someone who lives across the world?
SPEAKER_02It depends what the the session is about. Obviously, most cases I can teach over online. Obviously, best results would tend to be on a one-to-one basis. But yeah, no, online is fine. Again, I love the term that more consulting, more mentoring, then we can do it over you know online. But if someone is like practically needing quick feedback, so in a coaching sense, because they are preparing for an audition or preparing for uh a performance, and one to like in person, face-to-face works better. Again, not saying that online can't work, but also like when you need that like quick fire round feedback, you know, workshopping energy where everything is more like quick interactions, then one-to-one in person tends to be better.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Um is there anything you wish someone had told you that nobody did about being a musician?
SPEAKER_02That it's really hard work. And and yeah, no, I I would just say um I was gonna say that you need to be savvy with life, meaning like you need to learn because what we did was, you know, I've learned how to play the piano, I've done my classical degree course. So I I know I can come out of music college, play the piano really well, but we never got told about tax. We never got told about life, admin, we're never told about you know how to find work. We know how to do the work really well, but we were never told how do we therefore find the work. How do we what is the right way of approaching opportunities, you know? And like the the the old school way of thinking is you have to go and win competitions and be a soloist. But actually, there's so much more and so many more avenues to to pursuing that than just the traditional way. Like I said, music is so diversified, you know, so it's not just the one way of doing things, which is most people think, oh, you play in concerts and you play as a soloist. But behind that soloist tends to be an orchestra of about 80 people, you know, where are those 80 people coming from? So it's yeah, we don't most of us are focusing to be that one person at the front, but like actually there are opportunities for 80 people behind that soloist, and not everyone wants to be the front and center, you know, so it's that. But like I said, I already alluded to it's hardware, and there's so much to do as a musician, a working musician. But yeah, no, that the one thing that I wish people have told me more is actually not about how to play the piano better, but actually what is expected and how I should prepare myself into this world. What to do with my money, as an example, you know, like put money away for tax. Didn't think about that until I was starting to talk about people was like, you don't put money away for tax? I was like, what do you mean? When I was taxed. Yeah, exactly. What tax? What have you not set up with being a self um self-assessment or soul trainer? I was like, no, I was like, well, you better get on to doing that soon because you need to pay tax. I was like, oh yeah, probably. Things like that, things about life, about setting just just all these life things. I just I just wish someone would have not someone would have told me, but as in like that was I've been exposed to that earlier.
SPEAKER_01So you can adapt as well because you've got skills. If a young musician hears your name, what would you like to be remembered for? For example, if you change your career, if you ki if you're still in the in a career, how would you like to be remembered as a as a musician, as a person?
SPEAKER_02I would like to, and I this is something that I am you know working hard to retain, which is he he was good at what he does, he was a nice person, and he I wouldn't say not one of a kind, but sort of I would want them to think like he he was someone that's worth studying from because he's got um lot lots of experience, or he he would have dealt with that situation, he got good insights, he he's got a good way of making people realize things, you know, he always thinks about things from multiple angles rather than just the obvious. Those those are the things I would like to be remembered for.
SPEAKER_01And I would like you to to be remembered for this because you seem to be such a humble person and you're so thoughtful when before you're answering the questions, you you just you filter the questions very very well. So thank you very much for this. What is the one thing about life, not the glamorous one, but the normal life, that you would never give up if if the if the the the if the day is the hardest ever?
SPEAKER_02This is oh I'll say it. It's is my glass of wine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's fair.
SPEAKER_02I would never give up on my glass of wine. That's funny you should say earlier of like what I would would have done, you know. I probably wouldn't mind in my second career to be a some like Somalier or you know, something to do with wine, you know, but love that.
SPEAKER_01Yep. What what kind of wine is it?
SPEAKER_02It could be anything, as long as it's tasty.
SPEAKER_00Oh, what's the definition of tasty these days?
SPEAKER_02Very true. For me, it's just have to be dry. You know, not too sweet. So yeah, no, I that that would be for me, you know. It's one thing that I cannot give up is my love of wine. Um, obviously that's the fun answer, but um one thing that I wouldn't give up. Yeah. I think I just wouldn't give up not traveling necessarily, but variety. Like I need to definitely have variety in life. I like it when when I can't tell you what am I doing what what's just happened last week because the week is so different to normal. Um I'll be like, oh yeah, I forgot about that or whatever. You know, I I and I also like that I can't tell you what's happening in two weeks' time because things are changing constantly, and I thrive on that. Some people like stability and consistency, but I I thrive on things changing all the time because that keeps me interested. And yes, it does mean some days I wake up at five and some days I can wake up at ten, but again, it depends on the day. You know, I like things not being the same all the time. That's one thing I yeah, I would not like to give up on that.
SPEAKER_01I feel that you if you if you got stuck to one place, you would get bored so much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well for me, yeah, not necessarily bored, but certainly it would just become monotonous for me, and that's not that's not really um something that I thrive on.
SPEAKER_01So imagine that you are in a theatre in the past, the lights are down, the show is about to start, and you are about to have the moment that changes everything, but you don't know it yet. If you could whisper one thing to yourself just before it begins, what would it be?
SPEAKER_02It will all be fine. We'll work it out.
SPEAKER_01The taxes, we'll sort this out.
SPEAKER_02Yes. No, that's why I say we'll work it out. It will all be fine, but we'll work it out.
SPEAKER_01Before I let you go, is there anything you wanted to say that I didn't ask you?
SPEAKER_02Not really, not particularly. I really enjoyed our conversation. Yeah, they they've been very insightful and somewhat meditative and therapeutic to me, so that's been really lovely, thank you. But no, I haven't really got anything else to add to everything that you've already asked. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Chris, I would like to say thank you very much because you were very honest and yeah, just your answers were from the heart, which I really, really enjoyed. There are certain things, especially when you talk about music, about emotions, you can't script. There are certain things that you feel it, and your face were changing when you were talking about things that matter to you. So thank you very, very much for this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's great. Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01He spends his life bringing other people's stories to life. And today he told his own. And what stayed with me the most was not the stages, not the countries, not the performances. It was a quiet truth underneath all of it. That is the most important journey any of us takes. It is the one back to ourselves. Take care of your story, ladies and gents. It is the most important you will ever tell. See you next time.