$250M of Sales Experience in 2 Hours With Matt Ryder

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$250M of Sales Experience (0:00)
The Original Sales Training Process (0:24)
Psychology of the "Bro Close" (5:55)
Fixing Outbound Setter Openers (12:09)
Psychological Hacks for Setters (14:21)
Objection Handling and Removing Resistance (22:14)
Archetypes of Rockstar Salespeople (26:06)
Brute Force Referral Systems (31:18)
The World of Info Industry Competition (44:51)
Developing a Sales Team and Stacking Habits (52:32)
Aggressive Lead Management Tactics (55:35)
Sales and Fulfillment Creativity (58:21)
AI in Sales Enablement and Management (1:22:32)
Transitioning from Sales to Software (SaaS) (1:34:15)
Scaling a Software Company Organically (1:43:38)
Selling High-Ticket Coaching vs. Software (1:50:24)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So in this podcast, I talked to Matt Ryder. Matt Ryder has a 500k a month software company. He also scaled a sales agency to $30 million a year. He also was CEO of Jeremy Miner's seventh level, doing multiple eight figures in revenue. So we talk about his AI going to replace sales. We talk about shifting from the info industry to creating a software company. We talk about all the things Matt hates about salespeople and so much more. So enjoy the podcast. What was the sales process for selling sales training?

SPEAKER_05 0:26

Um, so what what I did is I would I would start off super vague, like, hey, how can I help? That's it, right? And then it was uh basically I'd taken through a very simple process, but I would do timeouts. Whenever they like said something that like my sales radar went off, I'd go, role play timeout for a second. And then I'd go, what you just said there was this. Now my sales brain is seeing this. So what I'm gonna ask you is this because I'm worried about this. Anyway, time in. So when you said that, like what did you mean? All right, and I would do that the whole way through. And then at the end, my pitch was, uh, so what did you think of the sales process? Like, how'd you go? Yeah, good, good, good. I go, would it surprise you if it was a script? They go, huh? And I go, you want to see it? They go, yep. And I would share my screen and I would go, so remember when I asked this? I inflected this because you said this, and so I wanted to assert time frame a bit more, right? So I did that. We actually teach that in the course. Um, and then uh, and so like I stopped your ability to give me this objection. They were like, Oh, I was like, you see, I did that? And they go, yeah, you see you can't give that to me anymore? They're like, Yeah. And I would do that the whole way down. And I go, and now we're at the pitch, and this is the point where you realize how much better I am than you are. And if you were half as good as me, you'd make twice the money. So it's fifteen thousand dollars. What do you want to do, champ? Yeah. Like that. That was the whole pitch. Yeah. And uh it worked really, really well.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

How many how many people did you close with the didn't you do the thing where you chant their name? Matt. Matt.

SPEAKER_05 1:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I would I I like upselling people, so if they're deposit into payment plan or payment plan into into PIF, right? So I always like go, okay, it's a you know, it's a it's a two-pay. They go, yeah, sweet. And I I'd go and I'd get the first payment. I go, how you feel? They go, good. And I go, mate, you've taken the first step, dude. Like, that's the hardest part. Well done. Good job. I was like, why don't we just do the whole thing?

SPEAKER_04 2:15

I go, oh, and I go, go, go, nice, nice, go, go, go, come on, buddy, let's do it. And they were like, ah, fuck it, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Like they would just get all excited and do it. So you know what's so funny is that I think and I didn't learn how to do this until after um I was done selling professionally and I was selling my own stuff. Is using more humor at the close as a way where, like, if what they thought I was doing was kind of funny and it was also breaking the fourth wall a little bit, I could apply way more pressure. It's hard to give an example because it's so contextual, but that is a good example, what we just went through. Oh, it's like it's kind of pretty sales tactic. It's kind of funny, it's funny, but at the same time, it's high pressure. Yeah. And you can get away with so much more. So to bring that full circle, I think the reason why, like, you know, a lot of people like shit on Grant Cardone's selling tactics, but I think if you probably watched him, he's probably good. Yeah, absolutely. I've seen some of his sales. Also, like he's probably good if he's actually doing it, you know. And I think part of the reason he's good is he's kind of hilarious. Yeah. And I think he can do this like high pressure stuff because it's like he makes it fun. Yeah. And when you make it fun, it's like when the fun meter goes up, the pressure meter can also go up. And you can get a lot more decisions quickly just because of the likability, and it's just like there's humor, it also diffuses the pressure.

SPEAKER_05 3:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

So then there can be more pressure.

SPEAKER_05 3:39

It's literally like there's not a situation in the world though where that like you could be picking up chicks at a bar if you're funny. There's a reason why it's make them laugh, make them breakfast. Yeah, yeah. You know, like when you're when you can apply pressure. Yeah. Because like you get away with being cheeky. Yeah. You know, but also like, are you sure you want to do that?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

You know, you want to stay broke? You know the reason why um humor is attractive from a psycholog um an evolutionary psychological perspective, is that people who are psychopathic have no humor. And so it's a telltale trait that you're that you're not a psychopath. We know it's some very unfunny people. We know it's the psychopaths. Yeah. They're not that funny. See, there you go.

SPEAKER_05 4:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

They're not that funny.

SPEAKER_05 4:17

That's good. Like I think I I love humor in sales. Like, and I've used it like Well, it's more fun to sell that way too.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah. Like it's just way too much.

SPEAKER_05 4:26

Yeah. You know, I remember I did that very similar pitch to a very large company. I sold them a $600,000 B2B deal, right? Right. And um, their budget was $200. And I I pitched a two, a $250, a $600, and a $1.1. Right. And uh like I had the CFO, CSO, the CMO, all on the call. And like I did that exact pitch of like I went back through all the sales calls I've had with them, yeah, and I told them what I did to them.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Nice.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

And they were always like, and this is when you realize if your reps were half as good as me, you'd make twice the money. Right. So is it gonna be 600 or a million? Yeah. And they were like, We'll we'll do this. And they piffed.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah, yeah. That's good.

SPEAKER_05 5:07

They they piffed.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

It was like I piffed somebody. My last sales call I took, which by the way, wasn't even I didn't even book a sales call on my calendar, I just happened to connect with somebody who I thought was still a customer of mine. Turns out they weren't. And then so I'm like, giving this person free advice, and at the end they're like, Yeah, I think I'm gonna rejoin. And so I ended up pitching them the full pay price, and they're like, okay, like, well, I'm gonna do it in two weeks, and also can I do like a 10 pay? And I literally just so this is back to the humor thing. I just was like, bro, bro, oh and just didn't say anything. Just like disgusted. I just was like, oh dude. And he was like, Well, uh don't do that. Like, I mean, and he was like, dude, I mean, I uh look, I'll just pay in full. And I just was like, but he's like, I gotta do it in two weeks. And I was like, dude, come on. Two weeks. I was like, you're really gonna do that, the timing thing to me right now. So good. I was like, dude, this that's just lame. Yeah. And he's just like, all right, we'll just do it now. All right, just something. But it's just and and so for people listening, there's nothing like don't do the bro close. The bro, like, don't, don't, don't do it's probably not going to work. You could bro take it. But in that specific, like I knew this person, I had a relationship with this person in that context, and also based on the convert, like there's certain things, you know how it is, where you do something on a sales call, yeah, where you're like, that worked, and I know why the psychology behind it worked. But please don't. But if somebody listened to that, yeah, and then like the next thing you know, you're reviewing somebody's call and they're like, bro, and that guy's like, what's what's like you're a psycho? Like, what's going on? Yeah, it's like you you can't lose the context. But sometimes when you get when you get very good, you can do stuff in the moment just because you understand the underlying psychology of it. Yeah. It seems goofy. Like that that close, I wouldn't recommend people doing that. It's not a tactic. Yeah, yeah. It was just something that was funny in the moment to that particular person.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah, and like when you're when you're good at something, you're allowed to break the rules.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Yeah, but you have to learn the rules before you break the rules. Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't like the salespeople who are like, I've actually sold a lot of stuff, I've done ten I've done five million in closing, so I think I can I'm like, no, you can't.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

No.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I was like, just follow what I teach. Yeah. And then you can do whatever the fuck you want.

SPEAKER_04 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:23

And like to be honest, I I I think every sales thought works. It's just like the implementation of it. If you want to sell straight line or an EPQ or Cardone, I call it Cardon, Cardone, Smash. Because it's just a smash. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

You gotta have the humor though. Yeah. Humor allows you to do the smash.

SPEAKER_05 7:39

And like if you're like I actually did a video on this a while ago, which was like how to pick a sales training based on your personality. Like if you're a meek and meager person, don't do an EPQ, right? It like it's too neutral. If like if you're me, it's like the best sales style ever. Because I'm I was so it it reeled you back a little bit. Yeah, like my old sales calls were like what the fuck's wrong with you, dude? Like they're so intense, and so like that helped me out. But if you but like, you know, if you're like if you're a super like meek person, card owns will be great because like you need to be able to be assertive. Yeah, it forces assertion, right? And then you've got like if you know, if you've never sold anything, like straight lines pretty good, it's like real simple.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yeah, well, let me ask you about this because I personally like to hire extremely assertive people. And then and then what I do is I just try to calm them the fuck down. Because I would rather do that than try to hire somebody who's, as you put it, meek and passive, yeah, and then try to make them have like a Tony Robbins breakthrough and roar like a lion. Like I'm like, you look, I'm uh it's possible for me to do that, but like it's I feel like it's way more work than like you listen to a call and you're like, all right, buddy, like you've done the line. I was like, the line was here and you went here. So make them a cuck.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

We gotta we gotta drop that back.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

It's like yes, uh let's bring it down a little bit, and uh you know and and I think you're gonna be okay. Like, let's book this one to a follow-up because this person had a board. Okay. Like you they can't want cultural.

SPEAKER_05 9:08

They don't have a bad mindset.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, but I like those people who are aggressive and assertive because I can I can massage the edges.

SPEAKER_05 9:14

Yeah, right. It is very difficult to bring somebody up to that.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:19

Like uh, you know, I have I trained some, I I try I've trained some people in the past and they're like really nice Canadian guys.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:25

Right? And like they can be good, but they need like you need to go hang out with Andy Elliott for two weeks. Yes, you know, two years in Dagestan, yeah, right? We make man of you. You know? And like you you they have to do that, otherwise, like it's just gonna hold them back. Like, if you never get a complaint as a sales rep, you're you're not you're doing something wrong. You need to get complaints every now and then. Not a ton. Yeah, and um, like all the best reps that that I've ever had are guys that I've had to like pull in and go, hey dude, like we need to calm this down. Yeah, you know, and like because if they don't have that kind of fire and want to push.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

They gotta have some inner demons.

SPEAKER_05 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Like somebody's had to have kind of done something to them when they were younger. Nobody planned on being in sales, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:09

That's what I always say is so I always say that sales is the military of business. Absolutely. To where like, you know, you're telling your like uh like you see somebody at Thanksgiving and your uncle's like, Hey, what are you doing for work nowadays? And it's like, uh, getting in the sales, you know. It's like pandemic. Nobody when they're in the eighth grade was like, you know, when I grow up, yeah, I want to be a salesperson. It's like, no, you wanted to be a fucking astronaut, or whatever the one whatever you wanted to be. Or I don't know. And then as you get older, it's like an investment banker, whatever else, doctor. I wanted to be a doctor. Yeah, me too. Yeah. If you would have told me when I was in med school that I'd be a salesperson, I'd been like, fuck. Yeah. But what's crazy is realistically, as a good salesperson, you could make way more than a doctor, especially if you adjust for the debt and also the average median pay. Like, obviously, if you're a fucking anesthesiologist, that's a little bit different. Yeah. But also you're doing 10 years of school. I make more than anesthesiologist. You make more anesthesiologists. You know, like also sales is the fundamental skill of business because it's the only part of business where you actually exchange money.

SPEAKER_04 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

So that's why so many people, like David Ogilvy, Mark Hugh, I mean, there's tons and tons of people started a door-to-door sales.

SPEAKER_04 11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Is because it's a uh great fundamental way to learn psychology. And also, like, I don't know if you know this too, but even building dialer your software company, I feel like there's probably stuff you built into the product because you were also thinking, yeah, like when somebody hops on the sales call, like I know it's just gonna make it so much fucking easier. And also you just kind of know the psychology of like what people buy.

SPEAKER_05 11:40

Yeah. I don't know if you I did a lot of that for the managers. I was like, like we have special dispos we have um dispositions like the the coal outcome of like a call ended in less than 30 seconds. Call ended in less than two minutes, call you know what I mean? Offer and decline, offer and accept. Right? So it's like because like if I wanna I got we got hired at seventh level to fix this um this big dental implant company and uh they wanted us to do all this stuff, right? And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's weird. And then I actually got in there and I was like, oh, none of those things that you think are problems are problems, but your openers suck. And so I just go, hey, let me just spend a week with the outground team, and all I did was fix their openers, and I ended up with like a 50% increase in conversation. Whoa, and that's like that's all I needed.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

If you're looking for a mastermind to take your business to 10 million a year plus, then you want to check out our eight-figure border mastermind. So after doing a hundred million in total cash collected for my own companies, I've created a mastermind where I really pull back the curtain and show you exactly how I've done it. So I not only share with you what's working for us across marketing, sales, fulfillment, operations, finance for all of our different companies, at the same time you can network with some of the top people in the industry and also listen to world-class speakers like Patrick David, Dean Graciosi, Neil Patel, and Tom Bailou, and many, many others. So if you're interested, check out the link in the description and get more info. Setter teams are bad openers, maybe want to shoot myself in my face. Yeah. Because it's literally, dude, you say the same 30 seconds every fucking identically. Identically. Yeah. So there's no excuse for you to say this like John? Hey John, how's it going? It's like, dude, at least you sound happy. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm good, John. Like, how are you? And I'm like, I I'm just like, dude, you're just lazy. Like, yeah. Stare in the fucking mirror if you have to, and recite this 30. Like, there's no excuse to fuck up that part of the call because you say the same thing how many times a day? Yeah. Like 20 fucking minutes.

SPEAKER_05 13:34

And that's the it's the one thing you need to do, right? Because like that would dictate the entire success of your day, your week, your month, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Well, and the thing is too, like most how bound salespeople is a standard, just in most companies, not even this space, but just in general, they're so bad that if you can just build a setter team that actually like if you're actually good, the prospect is surprised.

unknown 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

And like you're gonna have a great show rate and probably almost a great purchase rate, because the prospect is literally just surprised that this person was able to call them, sound like a competent, articulate human being, give them one insight that they hadn't thought about before on their problem or business or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

And then just book them in in a very smooth way. Like a lot of our customers buy because they're just like, yeah, like we want setters, and your setter called me and I want that. And I'm like, all right, well, great. Yeah, easy as that. That's that's nice.

SPEAKER_05 14:21

It's quite funny. Like, people get all hung up around like Google Voice and like the Apple thing.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:25

And like, but I've like I listen to the messages that they leave, right? And they're like, hey, John, this is Matt. And it's like, I mean, I don't want to speak to you either. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Well, also, dude, most setters just get the hit the Google Voice and they just hang up. Yeah. They're like, oh, this lead's not gonna answer. Yeah. But what's your tactic for that? You told me the other day. Yeah, you just go, hey, call it you don't say the name?

SPEAKER_03 14:48

No. It's so intriguing that they pick up the good stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

It's so funny how when you've done this long enough, I do the same. I I have little things like that too, where you just know little psychological things that'll hook people.

SPEAKER_04 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

You know? It's just from doing it.

SPEAKER_05 15:06

Yeah, I was just like, uh, I was like, I wonder if this works. So I called up a couple guys that like I know that are on it. And I was like, can you just like let me just try this? Like, let me know. And like within like an hour, they're like, holy crap, dude, that works so well. And then I put it up on Facebook, I was like, post, I was like, hey, do this, and then the comments were just like, I just did it, it worked, it worked, it worked, it worked, it worked. I was like, Yeah, it works. Yeah, it's just it's just psychology, like because you've been cut off, and they're like when you use just as well, like hey, it's just it's just, yeah, yeah. Like in the just is like implied familiarity, you know. And then the fact that it got cut off, like who is that?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:38

And like you just it must be important.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

It's just a it's a it's a lawyer. Yeah, it's a brain worm. Like I gotta know who that was.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

Yeah, you know, and it's just like I'm selling you stuff.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

I know. Do you have any other good stuff like that off the top of your head? Um not to put you on the spot.

SPEAKER_05 15:51

No, no, no. Like, I think from an opener perspective, like the the number one thing is I don't even care what you say. Like, I think you if you're really good, you get away with saying, like, what's going on, fuckbag? How are you? Like you can say you can say anything, right? Um but you need to sound happy and that you enjoy your job.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:07

That is the that like that is the tone. I think that what happened when like NEPQ came in is like people take things really literally, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

And so they're like, I'll be leaned out. If you call me and be like, hey Matt, what's what's going on? Be like, what do you want, dude?

SPEAKER_04 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:20

Like, why are you calling me? But if you're like, hey Matt, yeah, hey dude, what's going on, man? It's just Matt from XYZ. You know, so that you also give you a call about this. How are you? Like, I just sound happy, good to go. Like, I like that's going to be like, oh yeah, yeah, good man. Like, what's going on? Yeah. You know, and it because if you get told I'm busy a lot, like, oh hey, I'm busy, can you call me back? Like, they're not busy. They picked up an unknown number. You've been busy and picked up an unknown number. No, you never have.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

And it's dude, it's so funny because so many objections salespeople get, they're like, How do I and this is why I hate doing group calls for salespeople, because it's like, all right, they come on and they ask the symptom, which is like at the end, hey, they said this. What do I say? And I'm like, motherfucker, I can tell by the fact that they said that, they don't believe you, they they wanted to get off the phone, yeah, they don't trust you, they didn't want to buy, they're just trying to like get the hell out of there. And they're like, no, I swear this person wanted the buy. I'm like, if I review this fucking call, like, and then I review the call, and the intro is like, it's like it's like, and they and like they don't even address the problem. Yeah, like you're gonna review a sales call where you're like, dude, like you never even found the problem.

SPEAKER_05 17:28

Yeah, like what's going on here? One of the fun one of the things that you see a lot is like someone will go, that's the X, the Y, and the Z. Right? And like, I know Z, what do you mean? Because the hesitation before it denotes importance, and like they'll say three problems, right? And the person just kind of like goes with the first one and they like start probing on that, you know? Yeah. But like it's those little things, like you just hear it very early.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Well, and dude, one of the things is too, is I I hate when salespeople do this, but they do it all the time. Is I call it sweeping under the rug, where you can tell the prospect, like if I say, Hey, does that make sense? Like, if I'm pitching you and I pitch the first little part of what I do, and I'm like, hey, does that make sense? And you're like, Yeah. And I'm like, hey, okay, so like do you see based on how we talked about earlier with XYZ, how exactly that's gonna help you? And then you go, Yeah, I think so. Normal salesperson, they just go, Okay, great, you ready to move on to number two? Well, you think I'm I I'll just be like, it seems like you don't even like it seems like you didn't get it, dude. Yeah, like I must have and I take responsibility, I'll be like, I must have totally messed up. Yeah. But like, do you really understand this? Or what part are you missing? Because I can tell you don't get it. Yeah. Right. And then the thing is, is once you like, I call it kind of like mind read them, it's like you can see not just what they're saying, but what's going on behind here. Yeah, they drop all their barriers because it communicates to them that they can't bullshit you.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

And that they can't put on the mask anymore.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

And so then so they're like, oh well, dude, like honestly, like you said this, and I kind of don't understand it, and it kind of sounds like what we did in the past. And then you can address it there opposed to having to deal with, oh, well, this sounds like what we did before at the end of the call.

SPEAKER_05 19:06

Yeah. When people what one pattern I've noticed, which when people are asked a question during the pitch, if they start, if the answer starts off positive, it will usually end negative, and if it starts off negative, it will end positive. So someone goes like, yeah. Right? Like there's a there's a there's a negative thing coming after that. So like, you know, if I'm objection handling, I would like go, why is that? Right? Like I would like don't let them finish the thought. Because people think and speak in real time. I'm not like constructing the thought, planning it out, and then saying it at all in real time. So you can interrupt thought process before it resolves, right? Um, but if someone's like, oh, it's pretty expensive, like just let them talk. If you probe on that, you're now just solidifying that it's expensive. Yes, yes, and they're going to justify their thought. Yeah. Right? If they go, oh yeah, like, yeah, and you go, why yes? They go, well, then they have to justify the thought, right? So they have to kind of dig in on the positive.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

And so you want you you're leading them down the conversational track that builds the most consistency in the direction that you want. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:08

And so it's just like generally speaking, in in those sort of like either pitch or post-pitch questions, if it starts off positive, it's gonna be like if not like, yeah, dude, awesome, like you can tell, but there's you can always tell when there's a butt coming. It like trails off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I'll just be like, well, the the funny one too is where you ask a question. So like the one of the most common, and this will sound so basic, but especially at the end, even before the investment or even after you drop the investment, the most fundamental question I always, always ask on every sales call I teach my salespeople to say the same thing is like they'll bring up a concern or objection and be like, hey, no problem, we can totally talk about that, or or not an issue. First, let's just answer the most important question. Do you think this is gonna work? It is the most important thing. What your goal is is this. Do you think that this is what you need to get to this? And it'll a hundred percent work. And I use that phrase a hundred percent. I want to make it seem like a very hard thing to say yes to it.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Very, very definitive.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Because like none of these objections matter if they don't think it's gonna fucking work. Yeah. Right? So we have to establish that first. Yeah, and then once it's established, objections turn into logistics.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Because then we're just kind of navigating how to do the clothes. But then you know what happens is yeah, is the prospect go, it's like, do you think it's gonna work? And they go, and then they won't even say a word. They'll just be like, uh, and we'll be like, okay, so you don't think it's gonna work. Yeah. So and then and I'll be like, and that's okay. I probably didn't explain everything the right way. Yeah. But like tell me what specifically is keeping you from being 100% certain that this is what you need. Because I have people like you doing X, Y, and Z doing way bigger numbers, and this is what they did. So I know it works, but for it to work, you have to believe it works. So what's specifically holding you back? Yeah. Right? And then that creates a two way track because if they can't name it, then you coach them on the fact that hey, I think it's just a little bit of a nerve. So right? Do you want me to give you some coaching on that? If they can name it, then it's just Like a product question.

SPEAKER_05 22:01

Yeah. And you can answer it. Either way, they're in a position where they they require the information from like from you. Yeah, I mean, so like there's that inherent like if if they're gonna receive the information and it's trusting, and it's like the fact that they don't even know is actually solidifying the fact they need it. Yeah, exactly. You know, so but what's really interesting is like the the wording of what you said is so basic but so important because what you're not doing is actually asking about the transaction event. Because I see so like I do a similar right with money, I go money aside, you feel this could be the answer, right? Right. And it's the same thing. It's like, well, is this gonna work? Yes. Right? What I'm not saying is would you do it? No, no, no. Like it's what I see a lot of like these young sales coaches, and they they they get that wrong. Like when you're in objection handling or looking at concerns, if you push them towards a transaction event, like you actually have to remove it, is you have to remove product from method, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:54

And so it's like, you know, Jordan Belford talks about this. This is the only thing I really got out of his book. Is he talks like his objection looping is like, hey, but what do you think about the idea, right? And that's kind of how you want to think about this is like if I'm trying to, let's say I've had agency, a done for you service, and my big thing is an automated webinar or whatever, right? I don't want to be like, do you would you do it with us? Right. What I want to do is I want to try to sell them on the idea that automated webinars are like the greatest or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

That's Brunson's picture.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

So it's like you're keep kind of trying to loop back on the thesis. But because when you separate that, I'm like, hey, do you think the idea, do you think this method is what you need?

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Irrespective of you work with us, because I know this is what you need to do, even if you do it with somebody else. But what I need to know from you is is like, do you think this methodology is what you need to get to outcome? Right? Because if they don't believe that, nothing else.

SPEAKER_05 23:48

Do you feel like that would work? Okay, cool. So when do you want to start like actually doing the thing that you know will work? Yes. Do you want to do it later? You could do it later.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

I've seen less successful people do it that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But um, yeah, like you I I think there's like there's like a uh there's an impatience, which leads actually leads to much longer calls because people are trying to like cut to the end. It's like, but you can't, you just gotta have a little bit of patience. Get the principles right.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

You know what kills me too is that salespeople, they're usually really good. Like even good salespeople, like let's call them B pluses. They're good, like they have a framework for how they intro the call, rapport frame, whatever. They have a dialed framework for discovery.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Their pitch is good. It's a dialed system. So it's like if you look at the sales process, it's like intro, system, disco, system, uh, transition and pitch. They're following a system. They get to objections, no fucking system. Yeah, and so what happens is they get to the end and it's just like a I hope they fucking buy, and I'm just winging it. And so I try to teach like it's like you gotta have like a way of thinking and a philosophy and a framework and a system to fall back on with the objections. When I get into objections, for me, I have the same energy almost as discovery. Yeah. Which like does nobody's nervous in fucking discovery, you know? But like in objections, you see you see it in the salesperson's face. It's like their throat comes up, they're they get flush, and it's because they're just fucking winging it and they have no system to fall back on. Yeah. Whereas for me, like I set my anchor as I'm not gonna pitch the price and they close. I'm gonna pitch the price, I'm gonna deal with 15 minutes of whatever the you know the hell they're gonna say, and then they're gonna buy. So I view it as part of the process with a system and with a process.

SPEAKER_05 25:35

Concerns are inevitable and completely reasonable.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:37

A lot of the time you've like this person found out about you a day ago, and now you're asking them, you're selling vaporware, you're selling access to information which they may or may not use to get a result and which they may or may not be capable of achieving. You know, like there's a lot of variables in there, especially like with the high ticket space. That's why it's like it is a very difficult form of sales. Now, the added thing is that you have is you have ROI, which is like why I think fitness is like the fucking that's the that's the that's the playground of the beast. The beast.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Well, many come from the fitness space of the best closers. What do you think the archetype are of like we talked about assertiveness? What's the archetype if you had to hire salespeople? Just in not necessarily for dialer, but just in general for the high-ticket industry. What do you look for with uh a players, the superstars?

SPEAKER_05 26:21

Well, superstars are like an annoying thing in themselves, right? Like, and if you have to have them, you sort of I think your business sucks if you have a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Well, yeah, because you're essentially your make the way I look at it is you can have a business that does one of two things. You can make your marketing slash product slash demand so good that the sales team can be mediocre and stuff. Which is the goal and it's fine, which is the goal, yeah, right, because it's much easier. What I do is we just have to have like I I just focus on the superstars, but that's what I do.

SPEAKER_05 26:50

Yeah, but you're I would recommend my clients do. Yeah, but you're you're a unicorn farm, right? So like it's similar to me where like you have access to so many reps that you're a rep magnet. Yes. Like, so I mean, like I I I mean I for committed coaches, I put a thousand reps in, right, right, right. Like it's you know, and it was just through like links and places. And so, but if I if I see really good ones, I can just have them do whatever I want. So it's like, oh, you're really good. Okay, you come here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, um, and so but for most businesses that's unachievable. Um, but I think like I mean I I run sales teams like a sports team.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:25

So like if you're a top performer, bro, do what you want. Like, come come in, you want an assistant? You're not gonna do your admin? Don't worry, we'll do it for you. Like uh because like I was I mean, you were as well, I was a top performer in a bunch of different companies. And like there's the there's there's that joke where the top rep can take the CEO's parking spot and tap tap his wife on the bum and go, you know, it's gonna check like you can do what you want when you're the two. When you're producing, you're when you're outpacing everyone's revenue by three, four times, like you do what the fuck you want, right? But Steph Curry does what Steph Curry wants, because Steph Curry puts up 30 points a game. Yes, you know, but as a sales manager or like as a business owner, like I if I have a Steph Curry, like he's eaten first, and I will take calls off somebody else's calendar to ensure that person's full. Like Steph's getting 30, he's getting he's gonna put up 50 a game. Like I'm gonna make sure he gets the bowl on every play. Right. All right, so I run like a waterfall method where it's like you fill the best guy and he's still gonna complain. Yeah, like yeah, yeah, exactly. But like fine. You know, we can have a little chat. Like, um, you know, you figure out what their love language is, right? Whether if it's money, then you come up with a with interesting bonus structure, right? Status. Um yeah, if it's status, then you give them status, you give them like different yeah, different things. Sometimes it's like I've had guys that's time with me. Like they were like they see me as like sales daddy, right? Because I'm like so authoritative and like ex-military guys, so I'm like, I'm really proud of you, buddy. Yeah. They're like, really? Yeah, man. Yeah, I'm super proud of you. Um and like I am, I'm proud of them. But like, you know, but uh like you just gotta figure that side out. But I think like what I look for in a sales rep is like I actually don't care if you're good on the phone. I find that as long as you're competent and if you're a little bit funny, then I know I can make you good. I want the guy that will farm the CRM. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I can I don't being uh being decent enough on a phone call is actually quite a simple skill set, but being a sales maker, like we both know one big tattooed guy, right? Uh is an absolute weapon at making sales.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Big tattoo guy.

SPEAKER_05 29:25

Yeah, Sean.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Oh yeah. Sean, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:28

The dude's a fucking sales making machine, right? Yeah. Like he can sell, like, it's not that like the gift of the gab, it's like the grit a relentless attitude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now there's, you know, there's, you know, uh there's always you know crosses to bear with certain personality types, right? But if I can get someone who is a sales pro, as in like referrals, you know, and like they create a pipe, they have a pipeline and they do all those things well, that's what I want.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

That was the key. I mean, you're speaking my language because that was why I was good. Yeah. You know, so in my best performing month ever as a professional salesperson, I had as many outbound dials as the second I was second place on outbound dials of the entire outbound team. Yeah, yeah. And I was first place on closers, and I had six calls a day. So with six inbound calls a day, I was making more dials than everybody except the very top setter.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

And on top of that, I had a pipeline. Like what one of the setters said to me is like, I love giving people to you. I give my best people to you because I literally know you do not lose people. Like I was relentless with following up.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

Yeah, following it.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

And it doubled my production too.

SPEAKER_05 30:41

It's actually the easiest way to do it because like I I was a bit of a shark. Like I used to I I ranked all the salespeople in the like in whatever company I was in. And then like if like the bottom people, like I had an I hadn't every the end of every single day, I went through the outcome of every call in the companies, right? And then the people, the bad reps who got no sales, the rule was two weeks. And then I would like, oh, that person, that person, that person, sweet. I'd set a task for myself in the serum. Two weeks follow up, follow up, follow up, follow up, follow up. And I would just shark all the shitty reps deals because they wouldn't follow up with them at all. So two weeks, no follow-up, and that person gave a money objection. I'm overcome that objection. I give it to them right now. So I would just I had this whole like CRM system set up of like being able to just find all the easiest deals, and I asked for a lot of referrals. Like I asked for a ton of referrals now. Like I usually get five or six a week. You know, and I was the same when I was a rep. I just asked everyone for referrals, and I I would tell them, I would go, hey, I'm I asked a lot of people for referrals. They'd go, oh yeah, sweet. So I go, I'm gonna ask you a lot. Ignore me, give me people, it's fine. I'm not offended either way. And like I just send memes of like, you know, the Dave Chappelle crackhead. He's like, Yo, got any referrals? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

So just do it with some humor and just it's it's not like uh because people are gonna ask, well, how what's your referral system or whatever? I'm imagining it's just like brute force. Brute force.

SPEAKER_05 31:59

And the way that referrals work is that you ask a hundred people, 95 ignore you, and one person yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

One person gives you 50. 10 to 50. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Oh true.

SPEAKER_05 32:10

It's the super referrals. Like you're a super refer, I'm a super refer. Yeah, like I like you you give out a ton of referrals, I give out a ton of referrals, and that's why you probably get a ton of referrals, you know. And so um, like my my greatest clients at Sales Sniper were all referred to by you. Uh like yield farming, all those ones. Like they're all like referrals from you. It's like the yield farming one's a monster. It's a monster.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

I remember I think I called you and I was like, this is a gift. Yeah, this is a gift, but I bit off more than I could chew. Yeah. Which was honestly the right move for it. Because my two businesses were scaling at the most rapid. That was the year where we went from basically 200k a month to 2.5 million a month in a 12 months time. That's crazy, man. And so what was I doing trying to start a third business during that?

SPEAKER_04 32:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

So we got like three weeks away from launch, and I was like, guys, I'm not doing this. And they were fucking pissed. And I was like, but I'll refer you to Matt. Yeah, and he'll take care of you. And then they were happy when they were doing three million a month.

SPEAKER_04 33:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Yeah. Within whatever. They sent me like a wire of like a hundred and or two hundred grand just randomly. They're like, what's your bank account information? They're like, we're making so much money, we just wanted to give you this. Yeah. I was like, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we was like, I will not return it.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

In six months, we went from zero to three mil.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Yeah, I know. It was uh that offer was so many crypto info offers have been inspired from that offer.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Like everybody who's a crypto client of mine knows what that offer was.

SPEAKER_05 33:30

I remember I was, I don't know if I'd say the owner, I won't say his name, but I remember I was on a I was on a Zoom call with him, and uh he goes, Matthew? He called me Matthew for some reason. I was like, I was like, yes. And he goes, I made an egregious amount of money. I was like, fact, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:45

And then he has a private chef come in, and he goes again, and he goes, Do you have a private chef? And I go, No, I don't. And he goes, You should really consider getting one.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

I was like, you are you are so magically out of touch. The best part about them is that uh their LLC was called John Holdings.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Uh Mr. Money Printer, yeah. I remember watching the VSO going, this could be a problem.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

In a funny way though, they almost ran it in the perfect way where they made a ton of money and then they just shut it down.

SPEAKER_05 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

They're just like, we're done.

SPEAKER_05 34:17

It was actually a really good program. I went through it and I remember watching the program and like the owner of it, and he was like showing how to do it, and it was with half a million. He was just fucking around with it.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Oh yeah, like a test account. Yeah, with half a million. Just come back.

SPEAKER_05 34:35

I was like, um, yeah, it was pretty funny. It was a good account though. Um, but yeah, we scaled it really quick. It was uh, and I remember we started off and I I kept upping the price and talking about that price conversation because the so the closure was so high. I was like, we started off at seven and then it was like I went to eight, and then I was like eight, five, nine, nine, five, ten, twelve, thirteen, fifteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty-five, it was like yeah, twenty-five. I just keep up in.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

You can scale really fast if you can sell consumers 25 grand. Yeah. You can also go to jail. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you should watch out for that. Not not you personally, I'm just talking rhetorically.

SPEAKER_05 35:10

Yeah, can consumer stuff you don't want to go too high. Like, I'm not a big fan of debt. I I I don't like I've never personally sold a finance.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

I'm not a big fan of it either. I mean, B2B, well, we use split it, which isn't really debt because it's just as a hold on their credit card. Yeah, which is fine. Which is like better payment terms for them. Yeah. Which I don't know if you've looked into split it, they make tons of money. But the the big moat is you have to have millions and millions of liquidity to be able to operate the operation, but they basically have no risk with the financing. Like you can't really default.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Because it's a hold on your credit card, and you can only get the loan if it's a hold on your credit card. And then they take 11 to 20% of the fees or whatever. So that's pure cash. All they gotta do is have a big float like a float cash type of.

SPEAKER_05 35:57

The one that I just I just don't like, you know, consumers buying uh I mean the US is a is a different market because like in Australia, like you can't like I mean, I remember I was buying airplane tickets and it was like, do you want to curn of that? And I was like, for real? Yeah, yeah. Well that that's the US culture.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

We're a credit culture.

SPEAKER_05 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

And uh I think it's not gonna be good long.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

No, no, it's definitely not. I I remember I was uh I was doing a sales training the other week, and they're like, these leads just won't buy. I was like, that's fucking bullshit. They're like, they just don't have money. I was like, bro, do you have you ever been to a Louis Vuitton? Yeah, yeah. I was like, I was like, I go in the United States of America, how much money you have has no bearing on what you'll buy. I was like, you know how many fucking broke ass people I see with an 80-inch TV and an iPhone?

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:42

I was like, they shouldn't, like, that's ridiculous, you know? And they got a Gucci bag and all kinds of stupid shit. So I was like, has no bearing on that. But I personally have never sold a deal with financing.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

I'm not a big I actually have never done it either. Yeah. But I'm not a big fan of 18 to 24, four month things. We tried it for a little bit with our B2C thing, but I just don't want people two years down the line paying for something. Even if they got results. They're never gonna pay them, man. Even if they got results, if they're making a payment 18 months from now, they're gonna totally forget what you did for them. And they're just gonna be like, I hate that person. Yeah. And every payment reminds them that they hate you.

SPEAKER_05 37:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

And I'm just not a fan.

SPEAKER_05 37:16

I remember at 7th, I never let more than about 15% of the revenue come from.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah, that's a good ratio. Some people are like 70%, 70 to 80%.

SPEAKER_05 37:24

Like you're as a sales rep, the thing that I don't get is that I could do all the good work, but if I sell it based off the necessity of finance, and I sell it based off that, which a lot of them just go straight to financing, right? Which means you can't objection handle. But it it means that like there is an an an anomalous company that dictates whether I make the sale. And like a lot of them don't even know. I remember having this conversation with a guy. He's like, No, we need financing. And I go, what are their parameters of the financing company's using in order to dictate whether someone gets it? And he was like, I don't know. And I was like, that doesn't terrify you. Everything you don't know. I was like, I know. It's like it's debt to equity ratio, it's credit score, but it also might be local interest rates. I remember I had a I used to have a weekly meeting with FinMarket before they went down. And I remember the thing that really uh there was a week in seventh where everybody got approved. Everyone. And I was like, everyone was cheering. And I went, This can't be good. Yeah, yeah. Right? Like my spidey senses were like, what's wrong? So remember I called the rep and I was like, what's going on? She's like, Oh, it's great. I was like, now everyone's screwed. She's like, no, how good is it? And I go, no, no, no, like stop the bullshit. What is happening?

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:29

And she's like, well, and I go, and I know how financing works, it's paper buyers. And I go, Do you lose your paper buyers or something? And you're trying to like entice another one to come. She goes, Yeah. And that was when Silicon SVB bank crashed. And SVB bank was the main paper buyer for FinMarket.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Oh wow. Right.

SPEAKER_05 38:46

And then it was American Credit Union.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

But American Credit Union lost the appetite, which is why Finn Market went down.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:51

Right? So, like, and I was like, oh, like that. And um, there was a couple of things that you could tell. Like, we we used to shift the marketing around based off um like interest rates in different states. Yeah. Because like if the interest rates go up, the debt equity ratios go down, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

So the whole thing is a ticking time bomb because how much longer can Americans live off credit and make less in wages? Yeah, it makes no sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:14

I mean I don't know. I mean, it's gonna happen again. But or they'll just, you know, keep propping it up. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

A lot of propping it up. Yeah. We'll see how long it can go.

SPEAKER_05 39:23

Yeah, 2008. Yeah. The interesting thing is like the people who advocate really hard for those policies are the are the ones who get railed the most. Like it's not gonna affect you or me. No. Like the market crashes, I'm fine. Whatever, mate. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, um, it's just it it affects the people that want it the most, which is kind of an ironic twist. Yes. And you can't really stop them from wanting it.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yeah, it is. Yeah. So with uh with dialer, you have the ability to see inside the sales management of a lot of different companies what's some of the most annoying thing with setter managers you see with closer managers, and overall just with sales management, people fucking up.

SPEAKER_05 40:05

I think um the biggest one is rostering, right? So like I I just see people calling people at the wrong time. And it it's really funny. Like I remember there's uh there's she sells, which is not the Shelby one, it's the other one. There's two. There's two. Shelby's crushing it. She's doing very well.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

I mean, she is demolishing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for her. Yeah. She's very, very talented.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Yeah, she's a brilliant marketer. Yeah. She's certainly.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

I wish I was as good as Instagram. I'm I'm about if she's a 10 out of 10 on Instagram, I think I'm a negative 57. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

I'm like, team, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah. I also like I don't have to have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yeah. I said don't want to talk about making money.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Yeah, I mean, I think you get to a point, uh, and I mean she's I think making so much to where, you know, I don't know, she's probably not at that point. But I I got to a point where I've made so much that the B2C stuff is kind of like I feel a little bit gross playing with, and that's not judgment on anybody else doing it or anything, but like for me, I just don't want the compliance risk, especially when I have a B2B business that is like roaring and doing really good and has a huge, huge potential. And I think I think you're probably the same though.

SPEAKER_05 41:13

There's a bit of disingenuousness because like I remember I was at a I was at a talk and I I just I guess I felt like telling the absolute truth that day. And someone goes, like, how do I do what you do in sales? I go, Well, unless your IQ is pretty high, it's not gonna happen, mate. You don't. I was like, You don't. I go, I was gifted with a brain that works quite well. Like, you know, you know what I mean? Like I didn't decide to be a complete own that. Yeah, and I was like, so if you if you're looking for like some sort of stratospheric rise, I was like, first of all, I didn't have that. Like I'm fucking 41 years old. Yeah, you know, you're 22, like I was kicking doors in when I was your age, you know, thinking I was fighting for flag and freedom. Turns out it was just fucking oil and money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And uh, you know, and so I was just like, but what I am really good at is very abstract problem solving, and I also have a borderline idetic memory.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:00

Like I remember every conversation I've had to like a very accurate degree. So when it comes to sales, I didn't find it that difficult.

unknown 42:09

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 42:11

So I was like, but like I wasn't that good at it in terms of like the interactions with people, but I remembered the whole conversation perfectly. So like the recall, it makes it easy, right? It makes it like you can learn and I can learn fast. And so I was like, there is an element of like you can become like because he was asking about becoming like extremely good. And I was like, you can become really good. I was like, but if you want to be like extremely good, there is just a straight up IQ barrier, which is the same as everything. Like if you want to be the best surgeon on the planet or whatever, like there's just a there's a barrier, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:43

I I would push back and say, I mean, I don't know. I mean it I I don't need to be that good. I just think that the bar like if somebody really because like when I really committed to sales and got really good, I just took because I I I wanted to be an entrepreneur, I wanted to be a business owner.

SPEAKER_05 42:59

Yeah, but let me ask you did you develop yourself?

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 43:02

So did I.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:03

Yeah. Do you know how like that's rare.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

It is rare.

SPEAKER_05 43:06

That's I don't know, maybe those are the best way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Maybe there's not a lot of people like us, but I just think that if somebody takes the right obsessive mentality to it that's necessary, like I had, yeah, that like so many people don't have that mentality, they have the nine to five mentality that you could become so extraordinarily good.

unknown 43:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Um just by the nature of your competition is not.

SPEAKER_05 43:27

I agree with that, but there comes, I think there's like you can get really, really good. But like if you want to be like stratospherically, like you can close it 80%, you can walk into any offer and close it. Like just the thought speed required. You have to have high processing power, yes. Yeah. So like, you know, but you can be really average intelligence, you can be really good at sales. Like it's not actually that difficult of a skill set. And you can be a super high performer because of all the farming you can do at the outbound. Yes. That's not IQ, that's just crits. That's just willing to do the work, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:54

And when you have both of those things where you're very good on the phone and you're very good at the pipeline, that's when you become Um, like very extraordinarily good.

SPEAKER_05 44:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Back to the sales management. So you're saying she sells, there's two she sells.

SPEAKER_05 44:05

Yeah, so anyway, but they were calling a lot of people like 3 p.m. And I was like, hey man, I remember I called because I know I know them really well. I was like, hey, I just had a look at some stuff, and I was like, why are you calling people at like 3 p.m. in the afternoon? I was like, you have old chicks, right? They're like, yeah. I was like, you have a lot of mums? Like, yeah. I was like, what are they doing at 3 p.m., dude? They're picking up their kids from school. Well, why are you calling them? Three to five is useless. Even three to six for you is probably useless. You need to do like nine to twelve, right? And then you need to do like seven to nine. Yeah. Right? And I was like, you need to pick those very carefully because like I was like, let me guess you have a you have a a giant no-show rate from three to five. They're like, yeah, we do. I was like, yeah, man, of course. Stop booking sales calls during that time.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Like and this is also a female closure offer thing?

SPEAKER_05 44:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

And they named it the exact same.

SPEAKER_05 44:53

Yeah, at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

I think they're showing each other. They both don't want to change it then.

SPEAKER_05 44:58

No.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah, that's annoying though. Because it's like you're but the prospects are probably thinking they're talking to the same company.

SPEAKER_05 45:04

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's a real problem for both of them. That's crazy and they're both doing really well. Really?

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Who's the other person? They're Shelby and their Brook.

SPEAKER_05 45:10

Yeah, Brooke Brook Brook Tri Book Triplet.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

I've never even seen it.

SPEAKER_05 45:13

Yeah, it's it's more obvious.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

You want to hear a crazy story? I do you know who Shelby Church is? She's like an Airbnb YouTuber girl. No. I thought Shelby Stappen and Shelby Church are the same person. And so I was like, if I mean I don't really get mad, you know, but I was like, huh, like the Shelby Church lady is selling a high-ticket closing program, and she's like a I was like, she's like a YouTuber real estate lady. I didn't realize there were two different people.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

And then I started to look into it and I started I started following her stuff, and she's obviously very good. Yeah. She's door to I don't know the other one, but she's very good. Brooke is a savage. Okay, they're both very good though.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

Brooke worked for me for a while.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

She's very good. Yeah. And that's and Shelby seems like she's very good too. Yeah. And then she's very talented at all the social media and the weather. She's cracked the Instagram game, that's for sure. She's very good.

SPEAKER_05 46:02

Yeah. Yeah. Um yes. But like so, you can get you can get really good. But I think what one of the things I see sales managers is like calling people at the wrong times, right? Um, they're they're they they get run by their team. Like that's the craziest thing that like does my head in.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

That's what I was talking about with the frame yesterday. Yeah. Is I was telling the clients you have to hold the frame and you have to fit the the people on your team need to fit within your system opposed to trying to bend the system to them. Yeah. And what actually happens in that dynamic is essentially predicated on your level of leadership. Which, like with me and you, nobody's gonna come into our organization and then start making demands, and then we're trying to bend the organization around them. The fucking you. Well, it couldn't even try. Yeah. Because like when there's very strong leadership and strong boundaries and expectations, and if and like you're very good at this, is like when people know where they stand with you, it actually makes them feel safe. And then sort of like, okay, I'm gonna follow the system. But when they don't know where they stand, and then like there's not any of that stuff, they're like, hey, I think you should like change your marketing. Let me work on your funnel. And I'm just like, no, I hired you for sales. Yeah, you're going to sell, yeah. And actually you suck.

SPEAKER_04 47:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

So like I'm actually thinking about putting you on a pip and you need to get better because I can close these leads at 50%. You're 815. So it's developing. It gets you up. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:29

I see a lot of like people, you know, like they're getting feedback from setters, and it's like, but they're entry-level position. So like, although like feedback is valid in certain degrees.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

It's not like we don't listen to people.

SPEAKER_05 47:41

Yeah, it's like you have to go, yeah, but did you work for seven hours? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

And are you good? Yeah. It's like, well, then I don't really care. Well, you have to look at effort and quality, right? Yeah. Effort and efficiency. Efficiency is your skill level, and effort is like, did you work for seven hours? So if those things don't check out, yeah, I don't really care what your feedback is because you're not very good right now.

SPEAKER_05 48:00

Yeah, you just have to go and do the work. And I think I see a lot of people that are run by their team. And and and like they they take such small data samples as well. It's like, I'm not like imagine running ads for a day, spending $50 and then changing your copy. You'd be like, what do you mean, what are you doing? You know, and it's the same with like, you know, someone just does five calls and then like gives feed. It's like mate, five dollars.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

You did five calls, or it's like, it's like the one day you do like 200,000 in sales, the next day you do like 20k. Yeah. And somebody's like, yo, what happened with the ads? I'm like, well, brother, we just did 200. You hit a personal record yesterday. Yeah. It's the pixel didn't change. Like yesterday is when those calls booked today. Like it's yeah, it's okay. You're gonna be alright.

SPEAKER_05 48:48

People just don't take certain things into account. Like, it's quite funny. Um, you know, it's like some like every now and then I'll have a client that like contacts me directly because I have a relationship with her or something, and they're like, Oh, yesterday we had a 20% pickup rate today, it's eight. I was like, Yeah. They're like, Well, like, what's going on wrong? I was like, What do you mean, mate? What's going on wrong? I was like, Yeah, call me in two weeks. Hey, call me, like, what are you talking about, mate?

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Like, what if people are just busy today?

SPEAKER_00 49:12

There's a there's regression to the mean. What are we doing? It's like you have to understand, and that's what a lot of business owners, salespeople, etc. mess up is there's regression to the mean. Like, performance doesn't happen like this. Nothing in life happens like this. No, it happens like this in a trend. And what people do who are not very good at anything is they, you know, things are good, and then when you hit a little dip, whether that's a day or like three days, yeah, they change stuff. And then they actually re they make their trend line lower because they changed a bunch of stuff at the bottom when everything was actually fine.

SPEAKER_05 49:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

And then you're like, then you have to have a conversation of like, why did you change all this stuff? Okay, great. Like a lot of my coaching conversations, I'm sure you've had this too, is where I'll be like, okay, so you were doing good three months ago. Now things aren't good. What were you doing three months ago? Oh, I was doing all of this stuff. Are you doing any of that stuff now? No. Okay. Go back to doing that stuff, talk to me in two months. Or talk to me in a month, you know?

SPEAKER_05 50:09

Compounding changes, especially in sales. Like, like when you change a sales script, you better know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 50:16

Because the variability of the newness of it is a huge issue. And so, like, if I come into a sales team, like the last thing I would do is touch their script.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_05 50:24

It's like, let me fix all the process stuff around it that like is gonna like marketing, sales ops, etc.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Yeah, like you know, and you know what I do is because there's I agree.

unknown 50:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

So if I train a random sales team, I basically will not really touch their script, even though it sucks.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

I'll just go since they have no like I talked about before, since they have no process for how to handle objections, period. Yeah, objections period. I'll just like act, and I know that's like not really the most like you have to do the things right on the front end or you're never gonna make the sale on the back end. Like that is true. But also, like, there's no downside in me just telling them how to handle the objections and actually give them the right thing. Like, there's no cost of change there. Yeah, so that's where I'll focus, and then you're right on the sales upside.

SPEAKER_05 51:07

Yeah, that's exactly what I do. Because like if you touch anything in the beginning, there's a cascading effect which now affects everything. So it's like you can't change the openers in the beginning because like at least it's a variable that you understand. Yeah. And so, like I like like when I was a when I was a sniper, like my decision making, my problem solving process is the same for everything, right? And so it's like, what's the stupidest thing that that's happening? So it's like a it's a grade of like stupid versus like hard to fix, right? Right? So it's like that's a huge lever, but it's hard to fix. So what's the one that's like in the middle, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

And then the the the framework is basically, how do I say it? It's basically the highest leverage thing to change with the lowest cost of change. Or even I like a lot of stuff that's just no cost of change.

SPEAKER_05 51:50

Yeah, do all them first. Yes, you know, and so like uh well, like I still go to the range and I'll see people shooting, and like they're lying down and their foot is on like on the on the point of their foot, right? And I was like, like, and they're asking for advice, and I'm like, well, just put your foot down. Because your foot's moving, which moves your whole body.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Oh, okay. Right?

SPEAKER_05 52:13

So it's like, don't worry about your breathing technique and your trigger pull. Just like your whole body's moving, mate. Just put your fucking foot down. Yeah, you know, and it's like if someone used a different finger every time. It's like you have to create the consistency to then find the things to fix. Yes. And it's like if you see 10 things that are wrong, you have to go like, oh, like what's the what's the one that we need to fix now? And then like the way that I developed myself in sales was I picked one thing every month, one one metric, and one of them was like show rate, and then it was like pass through rate, you know, and then it was like um, you know, it was like I would just pick like an area of the sales call or process, and I would focus on that for one month. And by the end of 12 months, I was a fucking savage.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Right.

SPEAKER_05 52:58

Like, because I had, you know, one of the months was referrals, one of the months was follow-up. And so it's like you just crack the code, hyper focus on the one thing. Stacking the habits, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the entire thing. And everything.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

And coming into a sales team and trying not to change too much. What I used to do is the way the program was set up, I would do only a couple of I do maybe like three or four calls. This is back in like 2020.

unknown 53:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

So now I was doing all the fulfillment myself. I'd only be able to do like three or four calls with the sales team. And what I would do is like you were like we were talking about, I would just focus on the objections, but I would get so fucking intense. And I would just go on these tirades because these role plays because of where it used to be. And then what happened, what would happen is, is like sure they would use the frameworks or whatever for the objections the next day, but they would just get so fucking jazzed and like so aggressive that like the owner would uh like Alaric Heck, you're uh you know him, of course. Yeah, he always used to be like when he needed uh a big sales day, he'd be like, dude, I need you to just do a sales meeting.

unknown 53:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

And I'd do the sales meeting, focus on objections. He'd be like, dude, we did 170 today.

SPEAKER_04 53:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

And it's just like because there's also the the thing that's frustrating about sales teams is for them to outproduce energy, they need energy. Like they have to kind of be inspired. Yeah. And I'm not saying like the woo-woo way, it's like if we have a very good, intense, and that's why I like doing the objections because it naturally it's just so much more intense of a training. Then Discovery is kind of like, it even puts me to sleep, dude. I'm kind of like, all right, this is fucking boring. Objections training is so intense that even though it's not necessarily the most important call part of the call a lot of times, it just makes the um it just makes the meeting so fucking energetic to where guys are like, you know, foaming at the mouth a little bit and then they they get to it.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

There's a reason why all the uh shooting on sales teams is like there's some validity to it. Yeah, like sales and sports are like it's the most athletic endeavor within within business, right? Like it, you know, requires you know skill and and grit and all that kind of good stuff, but also like it is a performance meritocracy, you know, and and you've got to go in there and people need to just sort of get in there, get after it. And if you like it, it's weird because it's a team environment, but like there's no IN team, but there is a me. Yeah. You know, and I think we were both very selfish salespeople.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah, I mean that's how you were we were like you were saying when you were like, yeah, I just pillage this other reps pipeline. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's against the rules, and I think I did the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 55:26

Yeah, like but like you know, I mean, I I used like I really like competition and I like being like a bit cheeky. So I used to come into a new sales team and be like, my whole goal here is to make you guys quit, just so you know. Yeah, like I'm gonna outsource all of you so much that you'll you're gonna reconsider whether you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

You know uh funny you know Josh Johnson, right? Yeah, yeah. So he'll he can corroborate this story, but this is how much of an ass I was. So Taylor when we sold for Traffic and Funnels, Taylor Welch used to do one of those two-step posts in the Facebook group. Yeah, yeah, and it would get like a thousand comments. And so I figured out the cadence of when he was doing those, and so I would wake up at 4 a.m. when he would do it, and I would take all the leads. Yeah, all 1,000. Hell yeah. And then all the setters, which that was like their main lead flow, they had no leads. And I also had six calls a day, but I just took all the leads. Yeah, and it was just like it was it the best for the company, probably not. But but you're not the company, it was the best for me.

SPEAKER_05 56:25

Yeah, yeah. Remember, I was uh when I was in sniper course, um, I remember we had the sergeant Griff is his name, and he goes, Listen, snipers are supposed to be sneaky. If you don't cheat on this course, you are not trying. But if I fucking catch you cheating, I will crucify you. Oh, that's good, right? And so like I tell the sal I tell the sales team, like, if you're not cheating, boys, you're not trying. Like you should be trying to cheat everything, you should be trying to find the angles because like cunning is a fantastic attribute for a sales rep, right? Like, you just don't want to get fed by daddy, like you want to.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

Well, you know what really good salespeople do too? I was telling my sales team this. This isn't what I don't mean by this, because people are gonna misconstrue it the wrong way. I'm not saying you pitch somebody something that you can't help them with, but I'm like, guys, like sometimes, as long as it's within the box of what we can help people with, it's like you just gotta make up the fucking pitch. I was like, you just make it the fuck up. Yeah. You know, it's where literally, like, I will like we have like templated pitches for different kind of problem tracks. Yeah. But I'm like, guys, like sometimes you take the pillars from this one and you swap it with this one over here, and then call it a floating pillar structure if you want a more compliant.

SPEAKER_05 57:33

Oh, there you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

And I was like, sometimes, guys, I just make it the fuck up. Yeah. Like I just make it up. I mean, granted, I can fulfill on it. I know I can do it. Yeah. But it's just the pitch. So it's like you can just customize it on the fly. But that's how, like, when I sold, I nobody taught me that. I just naturally was kind of a corner cutter, you know? And so, like many good salespeople. And so I just started doing it. And I just would make up these pillars. And I knew we could fulfill on it, but I would make up fancy names for them, be like, this is our process for this. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah, that's what I did.

SPEAKER_05 58:07

Got some SOPs and synergies.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Yeah. Just make it a fucking word. Yeah. I would be like, yeah, you know, I would I would sell stuff not on the menu. Yep. I'd be like, the very first thing I was like, the very first thing you're gonna do is get on a call with our client success director. And if my sales team's listening to this, you can't do this, by the way. But I what I would do is I'd be like, you're gonna get on a call with our client success director to kick it off because they're gonna teach you the entire fulfillment system. We're $800,000 a month business. And and they'd be like, I didn't think we did that. We don't. We don't. But for you, and I would also sell, I would sell myself to where I would just sell like trainings with their sales team if they just bought. I'd be like, look, if you just buy right now, I'll just do a training with your sales team.

SPEAKER_05 58:50

Yeah. That would be true.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

And then I'd do the pitch where, you know, if they were half as good as me, how how good do you think they'd be doing? Yeah, yeah. And then now, you know, that's like next thing, you know, I'm somehow doing fulfillment. But it works. You know, you just gotta be creative like that.

SPEAKER_05 59:01

Yeah, and as long as you don't overstretch yourself and uh promise things that you can't deliver on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but but like I I think so many I kind of describe it as like uh there's two types of sales reps. And like like if you look at a lion, well, there's one lion in a in a in a zoo, and he still gets up, he looks great, and he roars in the morning, rah, like that. But if daddy doesn't feed him a steak, he dies. Yeah. And then there's the lion in the wild that actually goes out, hunts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And so it's like, you know, I go from a mentality standpoint, like I've I I've I've kids, and so I'm like having some blue haired dude in the marketing department be m have me be fully dependent on them for money is terrifying. Right? Right?

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Some like I don't I don't work in companies with uh blue hair.

SPEAKER_05 59:47

Yeah, but like you know, the marketing guys are always a little bit odd, you know what I mean? Yeah, and so it's like I like relying on that when you have access to like especially some someone like you. Yeah, I mean, there's so many areas that you can so many pools and spheres of influence that that you can get to to find deals. I mean, if you're not making a deal a week from text messaging, yeah, like what are you doing? You know, so like that is all that stuff was just like I want to have like safety and security. And a lot of that comes from the fact like my dad lost everything in 2008. Right, yeah, and like he only had one really big client, which is Motorola, and they went a different way. And so I was like, oh, a single channel, single business, like you gotta have diversification. Oh, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

So you were the sales guy on multiple offers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I never went through that phase. Yeah, so like multiple times of it. I think the evolution of a sales rep is, I mean, you know, the natural maybe you're a setter, then you're a better setter, then you're a closer, then you go on, then you know, you you kind of like up level offers to you on a good team, and then eventually, I don't think it's as common now as it was back probably when you were doing it, but there you can do multiple offers at once if you're creative with it, and then also negotiate your own commissions.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:54

Yeah, I did that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

And then there's also sales management, fractional doing that, and then there's kind of I sort of went, I kind of stopped at maxing out at TF. Yeah. But I did that because I mean This is a real high volume. I didn't know you, but I like when I quit, it was before I knew you. I didn't know Jared, I didn't know anybody else who was making more money than me at the time, which I'm sure they were out there. And so for me, I just got into coaching it because I was like, I don't really know how to make more than I was making. Yeah, you know, like the only other person I knew who was like good that I could learn from was Hormosia Gym Launch, but I looked at their comps and it wasn't very good. So I was like, ah, I don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:32

I I I did um like I I did because I'm in Australia, so like actually doing two time zones is pretty easy there. Whereas in the States, like you'd have to do an Australian offer, which is a waste of time because the Aussie dollar is weaker.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:45

So like you just like the ROI isn't there, but like if I can do an Aussie offer during the day and then do a um or in the morning and in the evening, I can do a US offer, the USD conversion, right? Like I could I could make less money.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

So with people who do what like you do or do it like Marty does, who Marty's here, yeah, and you guys are in New Zealand, Australia, and the currency's weaker than the US, but most of your business is in the US and you can charge USD.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:10

That's nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

Is that like a massive cheat code for wealth in Australia, New Zealand?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:16

Yeah, I mean, if you can make USD, you know, because like you can charge the same, but make USD. So you're making 30% more if we can't do it. Exactly, right? Yeah. Um, you know, there's some things to it, like you gotta hedge the, you know, you can lose a lot of money in foreign exchange losses and stuff like that. So you gotta be smart with how you do it. But it is a much better way of doing it because like if you sell like if you're a sales guy selling a 10k offer, you get 15% comments, you get $1,500, you get $1,500 or $2.5,000. Right. Right? So like I'm making two and a half thousand. Now Australia is as a higher cost of living, but but you know what I mean, like but it's not 30% higher. No, it's not, and so like you you can, you know, if you're making 10k a month US, like you're making 15k a month Aussie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like it's just a it's just an easier way of doing it. Plus, you could also work like in the mornings, like you could work from 6 a.m. till noon, and that's a full day. Right. You know what I mean? And then you're done. And then you can, you know, you could you could do some you could do some other stuff in Australia during the day if you wanted to. So you have a lot more options. In somewhere like New Zealand, you basically have an entire US workday and an entire Australian workday. You could do eight hours each, you could do 16 trips back to back.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Yeah, so that's what you were doing, kind of, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:24

Yeah, like I mean, I was doing like 3 a.m. You know what I mean? I was doing some wild shit there for a while. But I was like, I had come from being really poor, like fucking broke with kids.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:37

Right? Like in a really bad position. I'd like had all these gyms, walked away. You know what I mean? And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna like I was like, well fuck. Like my wife was like heavily pregnant in my second. We had like no money. And I was my daughter's seven now, and I was like, okay, what the fuck am I gonna do? And she wasn't working. So I was just like, you know what, I walked away from the gyms because I just fucking hated it and I was sick of the people I was working with. And so I was like, I'll just do sales for gyms, and I just went hard at the paint. And then like that graduated into doing like high tick. And I started making you know, 100k a month. And I was like, when I started making about 30, I was like, I went to my wife and I was like, I think I can fucking crack this code. I was like, but you're not gonna see me for a while. Like I'm working at home, but like I'm gonna go MIA for a bit. Yeah, yeah. And she was like, Yeah, cool, go do your thing. That nice and I fucking ramped it hard for like really hard for a couple years. Yeah. And I I built up everything in that period. Like from 2020, like basically from being broke in 2019 like to 2024, like in a four basically a four-year period. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Like I I went to like being worth a lot a lot. Do you ever look back on how hard you worked then versus not that you're not working hard now, but you're probably not working as many hours.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:56

Nowhere near it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

And then do you do you ever like question yourself, like, oh fuck, did I like lose some of my work ethic? Because I was the same way. I was like psycho levels of work.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

But you know, obviously I didn't have any leverage that I have now with people and this and that. And I'm really happy about it. Yeah. Sometimes I look back and I'm like, Am I am I like kind of becoming a bitch? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

But like, you know, that's a natural thing to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:21

It's like, do you you know, you know, walking, you know, the travelators they have in the the like the the ones they have in airports. Yeah, right? So you can walk on that or you you can walk on the thing. Like it's the same amount of steps, but you just get way faster.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

Yeah, I also think if I worked a hundred hours a week in my business, I'd probably just fuck some shit up.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

Yeah, like also like you know, you're not dealing with complex decisions, like I was selling things.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

And that is less fatigue. I do think like you can work longer hours. The beauty about sales is there's only two things you need to do is like close g it's either make an offer and close people on a qualified call, or find out a way to get on a qualified call. That's it. Whether it's through pipe, then there's only two ways to do that. People you've spoken to before or people you haven't spoken to yet. And so your life is so simple. I think because there's no complexity of decisions and stakes and stress and people relying on you, you can actually work harder because you don't have any of that other stuff. That's what I always have to remind myself is like, because I'll have days, I don't know how you if you've had this, but I'll have days where I'll be like fucking str I'll be like, that's a tough day. But then it's like I didn't get anything personally like that much done. Like I didn't create anything new.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

But if you think about it, it's like a lot of times you're just managing and making all of these micro decisions, whether it's through Slack or calls or my my my father-in-law was the um the head of Bank of New York, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:46

The Melon, which is the southern hemisphere, right? So like high ranking, smart dude. And uh I used to be his personal trainer back in the day. And so um he he I remember I came out to have a coffee because I used to work in the city. And he was out there like reading the paper at like one o'clock in the afternoon. I was like, what's the matter, mate? Boss doesn't have to work, and he just goes, My job isn't to be busy. And I was like, I was like pussy, and then walked in, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

Because I was like, you didn't even learn the lesson, you were just like, oh yeah, the pussy.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:16

Yeah, but years later, you know, and I chatted to him about it, and he's he was just like, you know, if if you have stuff, like, you know, in battle, the generals are out of the battlefield, right? Right, because they're making the correct strategic decisions based off all the information, so they have a good perspective, right? And then you have people that are making tactical decisions on the on the ground, but a tactical decision on the ground is meant to keep you alive, not meant to win the battle, right? And so you need somebody who's not in the thick of it making strategic decisions, who is not like emotionally tied to how things are done, but they have the ultimate end state in mind, plus they have a good idea as like all the cogs that are happening, right? So if you're like on meetings back to back all day, like you're no good to anyone because when they're actually like you need to have the brain space and the the quiet to be able to consider complex things. Whereas like if you're getting shot at and someone's like, What's the square root of fucking you are? Like, you know, you know, you're doing the thing. So like you're just gonna handle what's directly in front of you and you're gonna have this vision on. And so like when I speak to my staff, they're like, We need to do this. I'm like, well, hang on a second. Do we? Let's just calm that down. What are we trying to achieve here? And then it's like, well, let's move towards that, you know what I mean? Yeah, and there are bridging solutions that you have to do sometimes and that kind of stuff, but you know, it allows you to move towards like an end state. And like I learned that like I worked when seventh level was at its peak, I was only doing 15 hours a week, right? Because I had a very organized system going on. It was like, and I could manage only the top people, and it was just like this, and I was like, you do this, you do this, that was it, right? Um, but it gave me like they would come to me with all of their most difficult problems, and I was able to go, do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:06

And I would go, okay. And then, you know, and it's like when the when the when the seas are going crazy and everything's going crazy, if the captain is calm, everyone's fine. Yeah. Yeah, oh like Matt's got it. Don't worry about it. Yeah. All the shit's burning down. And so that only comes from a space of like calm. And you have to be like, and if you're just like fucking, you haven't like sleep is so important. If you don't sleep, you're retarded. Like your your decision making is terrible. Right. So like people are, you know, they're they're up, you know, all day, all night, working 18 hours. It's like, man, how bad are you? The decisions you make in that state are horrendous.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

Yeah, I I purposely, if I have bad sleep, I just I don't even take any credit to how I feel or any dis I don't make any major decisions, obviously, but I don't even like take seriously how I feel or what I think are problems. If I'm underslept. Because a lot of times on a good night of sleep, you're like, oh, that's not even a problem.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:00

Yeah. And then that that's why like that's where like having a foundation of the basics becomes important because like that's when you don't screw things up when you're tired, you know. Like remember I was in the army, they were like, um, I remember because I was like 19 and we're like blindfolded taking apart fucking machine guns. And I remember like the guy to my mate next to me and going, like, we ever gonna fucking do this in real life? Like, this is stupid. And the guy goes, No, but you might get shot at one day and you'll have to look up while you do this. And I was like, Ah, that's good boy. I was like, I'll just shut the fuck up then. Um, you know, and it's like it's true, but like, so you have this like baseline programming, like the fundamentals of things done super well, so that like you can take in information whilst doing the basics. Yeah, you know, and like you just have that sort of underlying programming, which is like which is what we were talking about earlier. It's like people doing all these difficult fancy sales things. It's like just do the really like focus on that really simple shit, just do that super well, even with like business, you know. The amount of business people that don't understand how to read a PL is like fascinating and terrifying. Terrifying. And I've been through so many business coaching courses, and like yours, for example, like it's the only one, the only one that has a section, a comprehensive section on like, hey, this is a PL. This is a balance sheet, you know, like this is what marginal cost curve looks like. And it's like this is what you should understand about business, because if you can't I see it's so funny, I was at this event the other week and people are talking about my staff are my my staff is my family and I take care of them. And I was like, hey man, do you know how to read a balance sheet? Like, huh? I was like, Do you have a war chest, like a treasury, that you've got like six months' expenses set away so you can actually pay these people if something goes wrong, or are you just like cowboying that shit? Do you have projections? Huh? They're like, what? No. I was like, so you don't actually give a fuck about your stuff. You just want to say that you do. But if everything goes wrong, you have to fire them tomorrow, right? They're just like, uh. And I was like, yeah, so you're an idiot. You know, like if you don't do like you're cosplaying as a business owner.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:02

Like if you don't do projections and and and you don't actually like come up, it's like, oh, but Matt, like it's so hard. So yeah, it's hard, and you suck at it at first, and then you get better at understanding the variables, and your assumption shit gets better, right? You know, it's like there's a series of assumptions, and that's what you do your projection on, you know. Like we hit dialer within 2,000 bucks year one, you know? Like, like, it's not my first rodeo at doing this. Yep. And you just but you get better at it, and then from there, from there, you can actually like you write down the decisions you made each month, and you're like, what did we do that worked? What did we do that didn't? What were the assumptions that were correct? Like, one thing in dial that I was really surprised about is like the coal charges per seat were much higher than I expected. Right? And so, like, uh we we made the money, but not all entirely where I thought we'd make it from. Yeah, but that's natural, that happens. Yeah, because I never run it before. And so I was like, sweet, so when I did the next set of projections, I was like, let's go back to the assumption base. Now let's get the reality. So I sent to the finance team. I was like, I need all this information. Yep, sweet, send it back. And I was like, cool, make the new assumption set. And then I was like, okay, cool. Like, what are we gonna do for next year? And I was like, when do the next features roll out? And when do we do this? And like that's how we crafted the projection sheet, like standard sort of you know, MBA 101 type stuff. But so many business owners just don't do that, yeah, you know, and but they don't they don't do it for their sales team, they don't and they're they're trying to grow every month, but like for just these arbitrary reasons and then arbitrary amounts, and like they're sitting there thinking, why can't I hit the targets that I set? It's like, well, because you made them up, right? And you're just blindfolded, going like, oh, I didn't know. Yeah, they're not reverse engineering. Yeah, it's like, what are you doing? And sales teams do that, you know, setter teams do that, businesses do that, but that's like a it's a top-down thing, you know. Like if you like how like how many businesses do you see that like, hey, like what was your what was your projection? Like, oh, we really want to hit 300. It's like, but but you did 90 last month. Yeah, yeah. What do you mean you want to do 300 this month? That's insanity. Well, we just have a good mindset, we think we can do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

Yeah. It has to be reverse engineered from something concrete.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:05

Yeah, which is why like the data that we give in dialer, like it's all designed around the ability to do to just reverse engineer it. Yeah. Um not that you know, we we've simplified it since to like just kind of do it for them. Um because I thought I I guess like my my assumption was incorrect at like the level of uh acumen of reading data of the average manager. You know, it was like we came up with like a thing called a unique doll rate, which is like a super helpful metric. And we explain it, but people still don't get it. And so it's like of the leads that you're calling, how many do you how many are individual? Of the dolls you do, how many are individual leads? It's like that's a great barometer for staffing. If you're at 80%, like mate, you like you need more people. If you're at 10%, you need more leads. There you go. Like that's the that's the easy easy solution.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:56

You're over dialing or under dialing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:58

Pivoting away from this though, so we talked probably a year ago about AI and sales. So where do you see agents, AI, et cetera, affecting salespeople, setters, closers? Like, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:10

I don't know. Maybe I'm like an old fucking fuddy duddy. But I like I I think um with the legislation that I've been looking at the legislation side of things. Yes. So, and they don't want AI to advance a sale.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:24

Right. Well, can we because this is what I say too, is there's like to lay this out and just to make sure people understand, there's sort of different aspects around the AI plus sales conversation. Yeah. So number one, there's can it act how good is it actually going to be? Right? Is it gonna be as good as a doctor appointment setter for a local business? Yeah, probably. I mean, for sure, it's already there. Yeah, right. Is it gonna be as good as maybe a setter or even a closer for like a SaaS business? Because most SaaS companies with their demos like HubSpot or whatever, they're freaking terrible. Yeah, it'll probably be that good. Is it gonna be good enough to sell a complex enterprise uh process like what you're doing right now? It's a long way away. But that's even just one section of the conversation. Even if you assume that AGI or whatever is going to be able to do all of that better than we can, let's say. Then you have the next side is the regulatory aspect and the legislation, which is like, well, are we even going to be allowed to do that? Because if everybody has this perfect robo dialer that can call all their leads of anybody who's ever bought their e-commerce gadget or whatever, you're gonna be getting how many calls a day because people are just gonna be spamming you a million times a day with AI robocalls or whatever, and then there's all of that. And then also the third bucket is consumer behavior. So are people gonna want to actually buy from AI? Yeah. So for instance, if I'm selling a gut health, if my client who is helping women post-menopause sell gut health or uh fix their gut health or whatever so they can fix their hormones or whatever it is. Is that lady who's like 55 gonna want to buy from John AI?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:03

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:03

You know, or does she want somebody who like really understands her stuff and is like a real person and is flawed and builds more trust that way, opposed to this super persuasive crazy AI. Yeah. You know, the other thing is here's my final bucket. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, the other the other bucket is these AIs will have to be FTC compliant, right? So as we both know, if you were 100% FTC compliant in sales, it sounds like this. You can't say because you can't say fucking anything. Yeah. So like, how does that even tie into this? So I I try to focus people more on those questions, which are really regulatory compliance and also consumer behavior, yeah, opposed to just is it gonna be good enough?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:45

I mean, you just have to look at like the extreme use case was AI. I mean, that was madness, right? Like, and I mean that that that was so bad that Twilio got in trouble. Yeah. Right? Because they were like, mate, you can't they were like, you can't allow that. You saw that was happening. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:03

Right? And so there was like 10,000 or 1,000 line multi-line dial with a fucking robot, you know. It was crazy shit. But I think that the the problem is like if you you extrapolate out the scumbag and you go, like, someone's gonna make a grandma scam in AI, and it's gonna be the perfect grandma scam in AI, and like they need to stop that. And like most legislation around telecom, like around calling leads, is based off the scammer.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:30

Yes, right? That's how it starts, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:32

Yeah, and so and and they're always ahead of the game, like they're miles ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:36

Right. I always equate it to people with crypto. The first U cases in crypto were people laundering money and doing scams.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:44

And that's pretty regular with not every, but a lot of new technologies.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:48

Yeah. And so, like, I think AI will be extremely helpful for uh sales managers. I think that it'll make CRM farming and the utilization of leads within a CRM infinitely better. So I think that people will have to have less leads to get more outcome. I think that the amount of analytics you'll be able to get is fantastic and you'll be able to make people better and just because anything that you have to do that's manual right now, like that's kind of annoying. You could just have have that do it. But I think in terms of like advancing a sale, I don't think it's gonna replace sales.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:25

Also, I think unless it's a very easy transactional sale and the regulatory compliance stuff for whatever reason, we're not even taking that into a but you know if I'm a doctor or a chiropractor and I'm running a Facebook ad and I just gotta get somebody to show up.

unknown 1:19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:41

Yeah. Okay. I think AI texting is a good thing. That's really you're you're not even really a salesperson though, if you're doing that.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:45

Yeah. AI texting is always gonna be huge. I think AI voice is um for sales, just will not be allowed. Like personally, um, I just don't think it's gonna be allowed. Uh it's already right now, like you it has like there's some real legality. Right now, you have to have a human that it can transfer to, and you your abandon rate is tracked. So like if you have to hang up on more than 3% of people, that's a real problem. Um, they have to opt in for it specifically. So now you've got to have your standard opt-in, your ATDS opt-in, and now your AI opt-in. You can't just have it all in one, like it doesn't work like that. Um, it and it's and it's not really supposed to be advancing a sale. Like that's sort of the rules. And uh they have to have the ability to DNC. So with pressing a button, it has to ask for it and it has to expressly say it's an AI straight away.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

And we don't know the effects of that either. See, what's what's what's good what's gonna be interesting is I guarantee that when this stuff first comes out, because it's expressing its AI right away, I think if you're in tech, and you know, a lot of these tech companies are just tech companies that sell to other tech companies, they'll actually like it and want to buy because they're like super excited. But as it goes more into like, you know, you're selling a roofer lead generation, hey, this is AI John calling click. You know, like roofer, this roofer guy didn't want to talk to AI John.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:05

It's gonna be like the uh, you know, the foreign accent.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

Yeah. The thing I think could happen, and so you I kind of gave my buckets, and then the one bucket is the consumer behavior. I think it's more likely that instead of the AI gets so good, la-da-da-da-da, and all the regulatory stuff works out to where like AI is just better than the regular salesperson. I think it's more likely that just the way people buy changes. Now, this would be like a decade plus away, because like the mass majority of people have to shift buying behaviors, which I think would take a while. Like most people are just using ChatGPT as like, you know, a thought partner, like basic stuff. Like they're not even using what we're doing with like more advanced stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:46

But I think like in the way future, you could have a scenario where a business has an agent and that's the sales agent, and you have your buying agent, and the agents just talk to each other, and then your agent comes back and gives you all the information.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:01

So something like that to where it's not that it replaced salespeople per se because it was better than them. Yeah, it's just people changed how they bought.

unknown 1:22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:10

I think something like that would be more likely to be. There's a really cool one than what you see what I'm saying? Yeah, there's a really I would be more worried about that, which I would think would be pretty far away than just somehow you have this person who's gonna meet the regulations, be compliant, and be better than an average salesperson selling complex stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:28

Yeah. There's a really cool one now that you can get, um, which is more for like in-person sales. And so what it does is it scrapes all the information from the lead from the CRM and then publicly develop information, makes it into a podcast audio format, records on 11 labs, right? And then sends to the person, and the rep can just listen to like a 15-minute synopsis of that lead. So that's sales enablement, though. Yeah, sales enablement.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

Sales enablement, and I mean that's already a huge space. It's but you know what's interesting, I get pitched a million of these tools. And most of them are just the thing is they're just five code AI. And so they're like, look how cool my tool is. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, like it's okay. You know, I'm like, I don't really know what my manager's gonna use this for. Like it's not that great. Or this is good for a manager who clearly doesn't do their job.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:17

It's like, you know, if a manager is actually doing what they should be doing, which is fucking just QCing a bunch of sales calls, getting on with their reps, role playing, and just actually doing call reviews and all that shit. Like if they're actually doing that, I'm like, I don't know how helpful this fucking dashboard you build is.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:32

Yeah, like one of the things I always bring into a sales team is end-of-day forms. Yeah. And people go, Oh, you can automate it. I go, yeah, I know I can automate it, mate. But I want them just for a minute, just at least them looking at what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:46

Just just the act that they have to stop and write it down.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:49

And also in an end-of-day report, which for people who don't know, you list out all your calls, what happened, what was the next step, like what was their objection, la da da da da da da. It's like in in a two, three, four sentences. I like it to be imperfect because you know, the salesperson's never gonna be like, well, sometimes they will, but a lot of salespeople are not like, oh yeah, I fucked up this deal. Yeah. Or the common thing is is they'll say, Oh yeah, super bot in, gonna buy tomorrow. Right? So they think it's fucking good. I know if I see that though, I teach my managers to review that call.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:20

Because oftentimes they don't miss the deals. Like occasionally they're like, I missed the deal, I fucked this up. But most of the easiest deals that they should be getting that they're not getting are deals they think are gonna close, but don't close. And even the AI can, I think a lot of times have a too high probability in that stuff too. And so it's like you want to find that stuff because that's where their blind spots are. Yeah, yeah. Because you know, me, like me and you will review that call and be like, dude, this person's not gonna close. The first four minutes, you're like, nah. And it's not gonna close tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:49

You missed it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:50

Yeah, but they thought that's why I like them to do it manually. Yeah. Because you can see their thinking and their level of awareness and accuracy relative to what it actually is.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:59

Also, there's a thing about being an active participant in your own development. You know, like when someone's like you probably coach people who are great to coach, right? And they come prepared, they know what's going on, they have very specific questions, and and you're like, oh yeah, like you're and you're using me to facilitate your development, right? Whereas like if I have to come up with everything, like I'm you're not learning anything, you know? And so like have but having all the data points and understanding it, like I get people to do an end-of-call form because only for a little while, because it allows you to get time data, so you can get like um you can get the times of day and the days of week of the highest show rates, right? You know, yeah, like it's just an easier way of getting that information because a lot of people think they have a show-up problem, but like they're booking in mums at 3 p.m. It's like, bro, like just remove all the 70% show.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:52

There's a lot of businesses who need to shift their sales force to PM hours for US time. Absolutely. Which means probably hiring Australians. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:00

What do you think about that? Yeah, New Zealand is actually the best. So if you can get New Zealand, New Zealand is the best time zone for sales. Um, because you can have people going, you want people going to like 9 p.m. PST.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:11

Right, which is like, you know, that's B2C.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:13

I think for us with B2B, generally business hours are good. Absolutely. Because you know a lot of people like to play business. Yeah. I'm gonna take this sales call, so I'm busy.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:22

I was really busy today. I took four sales calls.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:24

Playing as a business owner. It's very, very common. We have stupid times. It's like, what are you doing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:29

What else do you think? So in the sales enablement aspect, some things I've seen. I mean, obviously, we use Sales Kick. That's like a software that's very AI-based, yeah, yeah. That basically has replaced 90% of our sales ops department, which has cut probably 240k a year in budget at a company our size. So that's like app grading, uh disposition of the calls, whether the single and double book people predicting show rate, all the automated LS LNS confirmations to get people to show up. I've seen that. I've seen good like feeding your sales calls into an AI and doing like sentiment analysis of how to make better copy and even write ads. What else have you seen in terms of sales enablement, sales management, sales ops AI-wise that I think is interesting?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:14

The overall, rather than going to specifics, is removing the requirement for rock stars. Right? So like if you have a rock star sales manager, they just kind of do all that, they know all of it. They can look at the data and go, I see what's going on there. Like me and you, I can look at sales data, you can look at sales data and go, that's what's wrong. Right. And then walk about. You know what I mean? That just takes a lot of it's pattern recognition. That's all it is. Like I've seen that before, try this. Yeah. Right? Um, whereas like with AI, it can be changed in a way to where you're making the difficult insights simple to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:45

Yeah, and I think that's a tough thing when I get pitched these tools. It's like I'm like, you know, like how good's the information? I'm like, we do such a good job on this, like, and our people aren't stupid. But I don't think about like the average sales team.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:56

But you're probably a rock star magnet.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:58

Yeah, well that's what I'm saying. But the average sales team is by definition average. Yeah. So like for them, seeing that X percent of their calls are financial objections or whatever, I don't know. Like, or a sentiment analysis because their sales manager's not doing their job and not doing call reviews or 80% bad could be very valuable.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:16

Like 80% is price objection. It's like maybe you're too expensive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that's always a fun conversation. You ever thought maybe you just outpriced yourself? Have I? No, like you know what I mean? Like people get so many price objections. It's like, well, how'd you come up with your pricing? Well, I'm like, oh, is you didn't you just pull the number out of your house? Yeah. You know what's the craziest thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:34

Maybe it's too high. You know what's the craziest thing thing that I see is people, this is a common thing I've had with a lot of clients, is because we'll take on a client and they're doing like let's say 50, they're selling on the phone themselves. Yeah. So we'll fix their lead flow and then they start selling a 5k, go to 7K, go to 10k, go to 15k, and they're ripping 15k to 30% closing ratio on the founder. But it's like they're doing 15k to a consumer, and the consumer can only put like 25, 33% down. So it's like a pretty high price point to a market that is not used to paying that price point. Yeah. And then they're like, man, I've been through 10 salespeople and none of them work. Yeah. And I'm like, dude, like the same way you ramped up your price, we have to take your price and put it back probably back down at seven and then let the team. I mean, maybe maybe once you get some superstars, you can get it back up to 15.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:22

But the hardest sales rep to hire is the first one.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:26

And it's mainly because you don't know how to lead a sales team. And also salespeople are so used to getting fucking burned.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:31

That they probably just think you're full of crap and like they don't want to sell an offer that's not proven and that like oh, it's just this founder who's the only person who could sell it.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:38

You know what hearing one of the most heated arguments I had with Jeremy when I was running it? Yeah. Was I wanted to lower the price of intercal.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:44

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:45

Um it was 18k, I wanted to make it 13. Because that's that's what it should have been sold at. And I I won, I'm on the argument. But I basically did like I did a call, I did an analysis of like what everyone had paid. So every payment plan in terms of receivables.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:03

Like what's the extra money? Because that's how you tell the market value of your product.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:06

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:06

Because you can make whatever price up you want, but like that's a bad way of doing it. And my mom is always my finance chick. Yeah. Right? And she's phenomenal. She's very good at what she does, and she has an eye for detail, and she's never gonna steal my money. So, you know, she does a good job of that. But she she came to me and she goes, You should remove the six pay. And I was like, What? She goes, like, just look into it. She'll do that all the time. She was like, You should look into this. And I was like, okay, because she is in the books every day. So anyway, I had a look, and we had a one pay, a two pay, a three pay, and a six pay. Right. Right? Uh the six pay was garbage. Like the fulfillment rate on the six pay was like 10%. Right? So that was a waste of time. The the two pays were also terrible. And the three pay was great.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:50

Why is a two pay bow?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:51

Because they would pay 9k, come, consume all of it, like really, and then just leave and bounce out and not pay the second one. Yeah. Right. Like the one pays were obviously great, and the three pays fulfilled at a really high level. Because I believe the product was good, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:06

Um, so I was like, okay, this is interesting. Uh so I took out the three and the six. We had a one and three, and then I added a four. And then I ran analysis. I was like, I wonder how much people are actually paying for this. And so we ran two years worth of data and we had a look at every payment plan, every payment, and the number was 13K.

unknown 1:31:26

Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:31:26

I was like, oh, this is worth 13k. Right? That's the market value. I was like, sweet, that that's perfect. So I was like, sweet, we're gonna lower the price. Like, no, we can't lower the price. I was like, well, we're not technically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:36

We're just collecting more of what we're already.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:38

And you're gonna get an increase in conversions.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:39

Yes, yeah, exactly. So I was like, we're not actually putting any money on the table. And so what we did is we did a PIF of 13 and a payment plan of 15.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:47

Yeah, that's probably exactly what I would have done too. Yeah. Because I was thinking I would have overshot it a little bit for the payment plans.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:53

Yeah. And and like we we it ended up like we increased cash collection significantly. Um because like the like we got way more one pays. Right. Um, and the three pays were like Which helps your AR overall. Yeah, and you know, it was just uh we ended up like making more money. And it was like, but like we're like, oh, but we're we're going, we're going backwards. Yeah. No, we're not.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:17

No, we're just it is very rare though for people listening. Most people who decrease their price make less money, I would say, on average. Yeah. But they're doing it because they have a sales problem.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:28

They're not looking at it from a business analytics standpoint.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:31

It exactly. You're in a rare case. That position was a rare case where the sales is good.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:36

And maybe even too good, to the point to where people are buying shit they can't afford. Absolutely. And so that this is like a 1% scenario where people should probably lower the price. Yeah. So I don't want people to listen to this and be like, I I listened to your conversation with Matt and I lowered my price. Yeah. But there was a very behind it. You're probably going to make less money.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:55

There were there was two to three weeks of like deep analysis of lots of different games.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:59

And also I think I think the key thing is is that your your team, if a sales team is really good, they can if you get really, really good, you can convince people to buy shit they can't afford. Oh, yeah, we did that. And I think that's exactly what was going on to an extent, is people are like, I want to buy. And also you're you're selling sales training so you can play all those like psychological tricks.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:17

It's not I always tell people like, do not it is the most non-transferable skill. Yeah. The way that I sold sales training was totally non-transferable. Don't ever listen to anything and then ask me questions about it. Because I I used to do fourth wall selling. So exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:31

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Is like it's a psychological thing because Yeah, it's well, it's actually theater.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:36

Because what I what I have to prove is that I'm so much better at sales than you are that if you were half as good as me, you'd make twice the money.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:42

If you're looking for a mastermind to take your business to 10 million a year plus, then you want to check out our eight-figure border mastermind. So after doing 100 million in total cash collected for my own companies, I've created a mastermind where I really pull back the curtain and show you exactly how I've done it. So I not only share with you what's working for us across marketing, sales, fulfillment, operations, finance for all of our different companies, at the same time, you can network with some of the top people in the industry and also listen to world-class speakers like Patrick David, Dean Grassiosi, Neil Patel, and Tom Bailu, and many, many others. So if you're interested, check out the link in the description and get more info. So what I want to know is so you kind of came from sales management fractional, CEO for a sales training company. Yeah. Now you're running a software company.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:23

What's been the biggest shifts?

SPEAKER_05 1:34:25

I think it's like I'm a I'm a bit of a doer, but I can't code. Right? So that's a real shift. Like I've had to relinquish the control of the product. So I control the direction, but I have no ability to help with the implementation. Yeah. And that's been a difficult adjustment. In what way? In what way though? Yeah. Well, I want them here, and sometimes they're here. Yeah. Um, it it's like um you know, because like at the end of the day, you can get your hands dirty and you can start, like you can start just helping clients, you can start kind of going through stuff, and like I can do that to some degree, but I can't fix a problem. So if there is a problem with the software, I can't fix it. I have to blind other people to fix it, and I have to take what they say as gospel because like I don't fucking know what it takes to fix it. And what I what I've learned, like one of the larger learning curves is like, you know, when you get frustrated with software, because like, why can't they just change that? It's like, well, mate, that piece of code is in 14 million places.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:23

And if you if you get 13,999 of them, nothing bricks itself. Right, right, right. Right? So, like, there is a process and speed equals lack of scale, and scale equals lack of speed. Right. And so finding the balance between how you scale quickly, how you release features.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:41

Because you don't want to be one of those how many so I've almost every software entrepreneur I know, they've built the original version of the software only to realize we got to rebuild the software. Yeah. So I imagine what you're trying to do is avoid that.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:53

Well, we just finished that. So you already finished that whole cycle. But it's like a it's almost like a planned thing. It happens. You know? You know, you have like a V2, you gotta rebuild it from the ground up.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:03

But to be honest, it's like we we we we took, you know, probably because of you, but we we've you know gotten up to like now we have 200 clients, and we've done that a year, right? Right. So like that's a lot for like an enterprise sort of B2B level software. Exactly. We have over a thousand users now. And like that scaled quickly. I remember after the first event that I came here, I signed up 41 accounts that month, and everyone was like, stop. Like, you know, like we've just doubled our APIs and all that kind of stuff. And so, like when you originally when you start a software company, like the the thesis, the sort of growth thesis is like we'll clone it. So you clone it, but then what that means is that like that's not scalable because the bug hunting becomes very difficult because where is it coming from? Which version? Where are we at? How do you find it? So like at one stage we have seven people full-time bug hunting, right? Like, which is a problem, and that's when we hired some really senior developers to come in and they spent six months redoing the entire code base, which is why like you didn't have to go like, well, well, now we can't feature rollout. Yeah, because if we feature rollout while redoing the code base, like that's a real problem. Exactly. And now, and what we're seeing is like we're seeing, I mean, some of our competitors, it took them five years to get to where we are after 12 months. So, like, we're you know the whole like we're building the ship while we're flying, right? But you know, but in software, you're always doing that. But you know, like me and Declan are not exactly tech bros, you know, like we don't even know what API stands for. Uh you know, and that's part of the charm. Same.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:28

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:29

Yeah, three owners of the company, just sales guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you know, we're having to rely on people to to tell us things, but like, you know, so I I went on like I went on trannule or tri whatever it's called, and I bought a DevOps course. Right. And I was like, I guess I'll learn how DevOps works so that at least I can know that things are being done right and how things are doing. And so, you know, learning that system and then having arguments with devs when you know, and like actual arguments. I mean, like, you know, we've had some heated discussions around like feature rollout versus I'm like, guys, it's a business, like we have to run it as a business. I need to take what you'd say and what we need. Like we have to roll out some easy features that are high perception value that don't require a code-based thing. And so we actually ended up developing a secondary code base that we could dev quickly on because I was like, I don't want to spend six months developing a feature that no one wants. Right. And they're like, ah, okay. And like with devs, you have to put it in terms like they'll just argue because they're autistic, right? You know, they're like neck beards that don't go outside.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:30

You know, and like that. You have to have a neck beard to get hired. Yeah, mate, yeah, exactly. Like if you're not autistic, I don't want you, right? That means that you can like you're hard to talk to. Yeah, yeah. Um, and and so you know, it's like, uh but I need to put it in terms that they get, otherwise, they will just put their foot in the sand and go, no, like we're not doing that because that like they're very protective of their code base, which is a good thing. Yeah. So we developed a secondary, we're actually using ed for that. We have a secondary, like sort of more vibe coded base to roll out features to know they work.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:00

That's pretty standard right now in software too, with the vibe coding.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:03

Yeah, but you can't do that if you want to scale. Yeah, like anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:06

Well, you can't, but I'm saying for like testing the features and getting an idea so you can pass through the devs and communicate your vision. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:12

And then they have uh like a relatively finalized product to go, oh yeah, now because devs don't understand use case. They understand code base. And so like I'll be like, they're like the way that they name stuff is silly. I'm like, mate, what does that even mean? Like, how is a setter who's 22 years old and like an idiot? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, gonna figure that out. They're like, oh yeah. I was like, you can't have that there, you have to move this over here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:35

So and real quick, just because people don't have context, for people who don't know what dialer is, yeah. What is it?

SPEAKER_05 1:39:40

Dialer is uh a software that helps you contact more of your leads.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:44

So the way I describe it is like most dialers are kind of a telephony system for your business. We're not that. We're like an F1 car.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:52

What is a telephony system?

SPEAKER_05 1:39:54

So like a telephone system. Sorry. Yeah, like you know, it's uh yeah, it's um, you know, it's like you you call people, you receive messages, you kind of do this, you just sort of click around and do what you want, right? That's a that's a dialing software. We're a dialing system. So it's like picture an F1 car. F1 cars go really well around a track, but if you try and pick up your groceries in one, it's kind of a shit fight, right? Right. So like um, and the reason why we've been able to have, I think, good market penetration is that like our messaging is very clear. Like we get higher pickup rates, higher contact rates. Yeah, none of the dialers want to say that because they don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:28

But if we allow people to do all the things that the other dialers allow, it'll ruin that. So, like, you know, we have we're a use case, and it's like you do high volume outbound. If you have people that call full time, use us. If you want to like just click around and do whatever the fuck you want in the system, go somewhere else. Yeah, you know what I mean? And maybe you have 20 people, but four of them are on dialer.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:50

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:50

You know, and we and we and we are the only one that enforces compliant practices.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:55

And and we're gonna circle back to that. Can we say re approximate revenue of dialer or no? Yeah, yeah, we can. Okay. So in 12 months, basically, you were able to get it from zero to what MRR? Uh MRR is just under 500. So 500 a month.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:09

Right. So that's pretty and this is a nice thing about pure software. So the hard part is that you've had the shift in and like you're not the technical side, you don't have control there. Yeah. The nice part is we come from a sales background, so we sell shit. Yeah. Okay. So that's like you realize that's like an anomaly in the software world. Yeah. For people who don't know, like what was the biggest things that you did to be able to grow it? Because we really just started payday as, right? Oh, yeah. So everything up until that has been organic. Completely organic, yeah. Yeah, what do you think's been besides having a good product, obviously.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:38

Yeah. I mean, having a good product is is everything, right? Like, you know, uh, I think Alex Becker was like, he will not touch anything that isn't just a home run no-brainer, right? So having a no-brainer product really helps. But I think um market positioning to me is everything. If you can position something well in a marketplace, you can sell it, right? Like I have a low-ticket sales train, it's called fuck the gurus. Like that's a very particular name.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:00

Do you know what I mean? Sales guru is a very known terminology, and I'm selling something that's worth 10 grand for a hundred bucks, right? So like that's how I get a thousand people in three weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:09

You know? Um, and and so I think market positioning, like when I was creating the product suite for seventh level, right? Like, I did a Venn diagram analysis of all of the like all the products that were out there, and I was like, what is missing is mid-ticket with scripting. I was like, no one's doing that. It was all really high ticket, really low ticket. So I was like, I'll do a we'll do a mid-ticket offer that has scripting in it, and we'll do group, because like that really wasn't much of a thing. And so we had scripting, group, and like it really hit, you know, like it was like, oh, like, because it was a point of difference, there was a position in the marketplace that was like, you know, the Venn diagram was like, oh, there's a big vacuum here, and so we'll create that. I think with dialer, like I was so personally frustrated with the lack of efficacy, and like I had I remember the thing that really broke it was when I was doing Brunson sales, and I had four full-time outbounders that were doing like twelve to fifteen thousand dollars a week and speaking to like one percent of the people, and I was like, what is happening? Yeah, and I was doing everything that I knew how to do, so but then the the only alternatives when you speak to the dialers are like, we'll do more, buy more numbers, dial more, which is only more money for them. Right. Then they brought in non-compliant that I didn't know at the time, but like multi-line dialing and even power dialing in a lot of senses is like not really allowed for cell phones in a lot of use cases, right? And so when I left seventh level, I was lucky enough to get like an exit. And so I was like, I had time to sort of think, and I was like, Man, if someone solves that problem, they're gonna have a really big boat. And I was like, I feel like I'm smart enough to solve it. So I kind of just went full autism mode on it, and I was like learned everything about VoIP, and you know, people are when you reach out to people on LinkedIn who like have boring corporate jobs, like they're so willing to talk on a call with you for 500 bucks, it's not even funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:03

Yeah, so so you reached out to these people and just paid them for their time and these companies. I was like, how does it work, mate?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:09

Yeah, yeah. They're like, well, it works like this. I was like, well, and then I reached out to all these guys. I was like, how does spam monitoring work? And he goes, Oh, it's not accurate. And everyone was like, it's not accurate. And I was like, Well, how does spam remediation work? And they're like, Oh, it's bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:22

Uh huh. Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:23

I was like, what? And then I was like, and then I went into like the compliance side of things, and I was like, holy crap, everything I did, said, taught is completely illegal. Um, I should, that's not good. Yeah, and then I was like, I wonder what happens if you do it the way that you want you to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:39

So, and this is a good pivot, is like the reason why dialer works, and I'm gonna give it the stupid man's explanation, and you can give it the autism explanation. Okay, yeah, is number one, it's on an enterprise infrastructure that's not on Twilio, so it's a less congested network. So a lot of people don't realize that, but all these things are on Twilio.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:54

There's way more information that goes with the dial.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:56

And number two is that essentially most dialers, the way the sales team uses it is not compliant. Yes. And dialer through this different different workflows and also some stuff built into the software enforces the compliance, yeah, which increases the pickup rates dramatically. Yes. Right? And then the third thing, and there's more than three reasons, but just to keep it easy, it's three. The third thing is because of the workflow and our experience knowing how to run outbound teams and how to actually work leads, we just force the setters into working the leads in the most efficient way. Yeah. And then I would say the fourth thing is the management capability to make sure your setters are actually not working one hour a day. Would you add would you add anything to that?

SPEAKER_05 1:45:40

No, like that that's like all like the big the big hitters, right? Like the sort of the how is really complex, but the what is quite simple. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:48

So that's why I mean, with our experience doing it, and also, I mean, our pickup rates went way up. Even companies that I think operationally, we won't say who they are, were pretty good. We've seen like a pretty massive 20, 30% increase in pickup rates. Yeah. And then we we both know the one company that uh basically doubled their business because like literally because they were just calling off iPhones in a crazy sales room. Yeah, but good for that. But so why do you think because so many info people moved to software and just bomb, right? There's been dialer now, I would say. It doesn't work out. I wonder why you think that is.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:33

I I think I think most of them are not that competent to begin with. So like I I consider myself like I'm I'm quite good at at like I've like I did eight, I did five years of full-time outbound myself. Right. Right. Before I got into high ticket, I was in sales for like five or six years, right? That's why when I got to high ticket, I was like good straight away. Yeah. People are like, oh my god, like I did Taylor's 97 like $97 course, and I was, you know, I was uh $100K a month, you know, closer, right? From that $197. Right. Um but but yeah, so like I've done so much outbound that I know how it works, and I've run a lot of outbound teams, and so I like I am legitimately an expert in that realm, and I've done it across a number of different things. And so um I think the first thing is like they're not maybe not a true expert. Also, they they sort of have no interest in in if you want to build a long-term software, like you have to be willing to not make money and take money, right? So, like me and Declan put money into it, and we didn't take money out of it for a long time for like almost the entirety of it. And we didn't need money, which is a really good position to be in. And I think it's you made a lot of money before. Yeah, it's very difficult to grow a business when you need the money from it in general. And if you need the money from a software business, I do not know how you do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:54

Well, you can't, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:55

So I would say most of them just fail because the people who make them require money from it quickly, which means that the quality of your product is never going to be there. Because if you're like if I was to run dialer to maximize revenue, right, right now, it would fall apart because I would break it. Because your boy knows how to make some sales. Yes, yeah, right. So, like I I do sporadic sales for dialer and somebody else handles it because when I go hard, like over the next two weeks, like we signed up 10 accounts yesterday. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like I'm going hard in the paint. So it's like this next two weeks is gonna be a big push, but they're it's ready for it. And then I'll back off a bit and then I'll do it again later. So, because the software needs the opportunity to grow at the pace in which it can grow whilst maintaining a high quality product. So if I just went ham and was like, I need a fucking 50k a month salary from this immediately, I would just break it. And then with software, like when people have a really bad experience, you never get an opportunity again. Like we have clients leave dialer, a lot of them come back, but they're not leaving because they're having a bad experience, a lot of them lot are leaving because like there's one thing and they want to try something else because they think that no, they think that like they start getting good pickup rates and they think it's them.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:06

You know what I mean? And they're like, Oh, our leads are just also you know, and then like they go away and they go, Can we come back?

SPEAKER_03 1:49:13

They're like, Yeah, man, come on back, you're all good.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:15

So I think like that's probably the key thing. Like when when Alex, when Becker did um high rose, like I don't think he needed the money from Hieros.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:22

Well the other thing is too, so this is how I think about it is there's two ways you can do software. You either create a new category, which he didn't Becker didn't create ad attribution as a category, but he did create the subcategory of doing it really well for info, high-ticket courses, call funnels, webinars, and then e commerce, right? So you can kind of create a category, or you can take an existing category and do it 10x better, which is what you did basically. Yeah. Is there's tons of dialers, a lot of them, but you create a you kind of created a subcategory of essentially being the compliant dialer, therefore having more pickup rates and Also less compliant risk.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:01

And then also because that all which is positioning. And then on top of that, it was like 10x better than the next thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:08

And it's like the free money pitch where essentially anytime you can be like, hey, you're already doing this, but if you just switch and do this, you're going to save a bunch of money that otherwise you're losing. It's that's the easiest B2B pitch in the world.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:19

Yes. You know, that's like our sales are like, hey man.

unknown 1:50:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:23

You want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:24

So that's what I was going to ask you about. How different is it selling high-ticket coaching than a really good software product?

SPEAKER_01 1:50:31

I mean, it's you don't you're not selling. You're just like explaining. Right. So the hardest part is probably the enterprise integrations with like the big ones take a while. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:42

With you know who's got a CFO and then they gotta do a purchasing process is fucking nine months.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:47

So like short like short short shortcutting that is difficult, but you know, it's it's worth it because you know if you look at on dial the average seat is worth six to seven thousand a year. Nice, right? And so you look at the like say a 10x Rev, it's like a pretty standardized valuation. So you're looking at 60,000 of seats. That's how I think of it. So I'm like, mate, bring everyone you got. Like, let's go. That's 60,000 on the back end, you know, I mean, in terms of value. So um you know, like the way that uh like when I was doing the sales, it was like heavy authority. Like I would just literally bamboozle people and go, like, you know so little about this that you should just let me do it. Yeah, you know, it was like, what are you doing for this? What are you doing for this? What are you doing for this? And it was almost like a like there was the pickup rate, like positive solution base, right? But we actually had to temper it down a fair bit because if I say like you can quintuple, it's like I don't I don't believe you. Yeah, it's like you have a two percent, I can get you a 20%, it's 10x. Like that's too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I gotta go. Well, if I give you a 10%, is that good? Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:43

It's the believability of the promise.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:44

Yeah, yeah. And then from there it was like compliance because you know, like there is a pain associated with the transition in tech, right? So, you know, it's like we've tried this before, we get a good results for a week. And so really it was about it's a very explanatory process as to like why what they've done hasn't worked, you know. And then what I sort of created when I brought a sales guy on was like it's a uh escape the matrix sale, it's kind of like how I described it. Um I I just basically got every single transcript of every sales call. I did put it in chat GPT and said like make a framework, right? But I need a framework that doesn't require as much knowledge as me or like the authority of me.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:22

Yeah, you know, because when people get on a sales call with me, like a lot of them know who I am, and so like it's it's a cheat code.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:29

Yeah. Well, double-click on that for a second, because a lot of people have issues getting off the phones because they're the expert, yeah, and then they need to kind of process their process that they have in their expertise into something that's repeatable. Yeah. So how did you do that for dialer? Because with dialer and how you explain it, like when you were explaining it to me, I was like, all right, bro, if we're gonna do some marketing for this, like we need to come up with a dumber explanation. It's like this hour-long like Twilio and like all this stuff. I'm like, oh my god, like I'm like, what's going on? Let's like take this down the third grade level. But yeah, how did you do that for your sales guy?

SPEAKER_05 1:53:05

Yeah, so I did have to teach him stuff, yeah. Right? So at the education.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:09

There's a certain business acumen they have to do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:11

But essentially it was it was I uh I wrote out like these are all the things that you've probably tried. And they're like, yes. It's like, okay, cool. Would you like me to explain why they were never going to work and why it's actually been rigged against you? And that's the sale. It's like the dialers know it won't work, so that's why they get you to do more, because more equals more money. Yeah, yeah. You know, and they're like, oh, and then I we explain, like, without using names, we explain like what the common thesis is and what the outcomes that everyone like the everyone's more, so just do more, buy more, dial more, more lines, do this. Like, that's the opposite of our thesis. Our thesis is be more strategic and do it in a way where the telecoms who are monitoring everything, like it's an algorithm, it's like the headline of a YouTube video, right? Do it the way they want you to do it, and it will work significantly better. You know, so um, but that's like but you have to, in order for that to work, you have to be on the right infrastructure, right? So they couldn't do it anyway. So once we explain all that and we go, this is why nothing you've done has worked, this is why, this is what we've done to ensure that it can work, yeah. This is how much it costs, would you like to do it?

SPEAKER_00 1:54:26

Yeah, it's the same thing I do, which we were talking about earlier. Yeah, is when I try to pitch, I try to make it the simultaneous explanation of why everything they tried in the past has failed and why this is gonna be different.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:37

And then try to make it more educational and a dialogue, not an anvil drop. Yeah. Because you know when most people pitch, it's like the thing I hate is all right, I'm gonna tell you how this works, save your questions for the end, and then they just speedy Gonzalez through the entire thing. And you can tell, like, people will say, Oh yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense. And you can tell, like I'll re-reviewing calls, I'll be like, dude, this person has no idea what the fuck you're talking about. They're out of it. Right? And then at the end they're like, oh yeah, this makes sense. And then their objection is their objection is I don't know how this is different than what I did in the past. And you're like, motherfucker, I just explained it. Well, the thing is, they didn't understand anything you were saying, but they don't want to feel stupid. So they don't say, dude, I don't understand anything you're saying. You know, so the key is a level of bravery to ask questions. The key is also it's like making the pitch into a dialogue and adding in those tie downs and being like, okay, great, so you know how you tried this in the past. Do you see how, with the difference of this, you're gonna see a much higher pickup rate because now you're doing it this way, not this way, and having that compare and contrast.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:36

And I had our devs whack up a calculator. And so during the process, we ask them questions like how many leads do you get, how many dollars do you do, what's your pickup rate, what's your booking rate? Yeah. From like pickups to bookings, what's your show rate, what's your cash collection, what's your close rate? We ask it in a random sequence because when you ask things in an order, they see what you're doing. So we ask it in a random sequence, and we have a calculator and we plug that in, and then by the end of it, we go, Oh, so you're doing like 320k new cash a month? They go, Yeah. And then we share the screen and go, well, if you had a 15% pickup rate, you would make 700. Nice. And they're like, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like, yeah, if everything else stays the same, you know what? Let's make it worse. Let's make it so that you're more people, but like it's 20% worse than every other metric, you still make 50 grand more. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:19

That's that's what I'm saying. If you can make a product that's like patching a leaky bucket and B2B, yeah, easy as sale.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:26

And then one of the things that we did is the proposal that we use actually has all of that information. So the proposal is really educational. We use a software called Quiller, which is like you're essentially making web uh websites every time. So it's like a live thing. You can have videos embedded, you can make it really pretty. Um, but you can also see all the analytics of who's seen it, which parts they're watching, yeah, yeah, yeah. All that kind of stuff. And so we we sort of a lot of the people that we're talking to are not the final decision maker. So sometimes it is, but we actually find that we don't want to sign people on the first call. We actually want them to bring all the people to get buy-in from all of the people involved.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:01

Yeah, because it you have to make sure, and this is one thing Becker's talking a lot about recently, is that like you can, because this is the thing a lot of the vibe coders get wrong, is like, sure, you can build a software, but a big part of software businesses is getting people, or really any business, is getting people to use the fucking thing successfully, which at the end of the day create it requires client success, you know, having an actual onboarding and an actual pathway, having activation points and doing real human business stuff. Yes. And getting feedback from customers, so on and so forth. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:31

So like we're we're so the proposal is is is made as it gives the person presenting it to the powers that be the ability to explain why it works. Yeah. So there's an educational step-by-step, this is your problem, this is how it's manifesting, this is what like what it's giving you, the symptoms of it, this is why you're having it, this is how we solve it. But then there's some technical information in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:55

You know what I mean? And so it's like this, like this is really what's happening, and it allows them to kind of break through and go, oh, okay, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:01

Well, what you're doing too, which is cool about that, is you're explain you have the technical aspect for the CTO. I mean, we're talking like bigger enterprises, right? But the CTO guy wants to know the technical stuff and the integration stuff. The CFO guy wants to know about the ROI. Yeah. Right? The sales manager wants to know why his shift's not working and how much mut more money his sales team is gonna make and how much easier his life's gonna be, and that he doesn't have to hire as many setters because he can get more out of the setters he currently has and how it's gonna make management easier. So it's kind of like that one thing hits all those people.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:32

Yeah, and we have the the postman API documentation links in there, and like so everyone can find all the stuff that they want to find in there, yeah. And then we give that to them and then we take them through it, and then like we just book a next step call. It's like, okay, cool. And then from the time they sign it, all the automated, all the onboarding is automated because like you need speed to onboarding is incredibly important.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:54

You need to get people getting wins straight away.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:58

Yeah, we've talked about this. Like so that's that's the big thing. Yeah, that's what that's what we were talking about. Is like you can't just have a great product, it's about do they actually use the product and building habits around the product, yeah.