Meet The Genius That Industry Leaders Hire For $100M Launches

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you look at all the top brands in our industry, so people like Alex Ramosi, Imon Gazi, Tony Robbins, Dean Graciosi, Russell Brunson, and so many more, what all of them have generated millions of dollars doing is selling through live presentations or webinars. And another thing they all have in common is they've all worked with one webinar expert who sold $250 million purely through webinars, and his name is Jason Flagging. You've done one to many selling, whether that's webinars, live presentations, challenges at the million dollar level. You've made $10 million off of that, $50 million off of that, even consulted some of the biggest brands in the industry, like Tony Dean, Horbozie, Imangazi, etc., at the 100 million level. So I want to walk through the levels, going through seven figures, all to nine figures in one to many selling type of style. But first, just because this is the most recent one that's at least notable, I want you to talk to me about how you got working with Imangazi and what did that look like. And also what was different about that than maybe other selling type of environments that you've been in.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Oh yeah, so this is fun because Iman represents a younger audience, typically, although they're older actually demographically, if you math that out who we reached. But we were reaching about a million people on a launch, which is insane. And everything about it was different. So the fundamentals were there, but how they showed up was completely different than any launch I've ever experienced in my life. In what way? Oh God, every way. So when you're doing YouTube Live as your delivery channel, you get a different kind of attitude from the people that are showing up. So you get these live comments that everybody can see on YouTube, and people that are on YouTube are also more distracted. And Iman is such a big name to the younger audience on YouTube that they show up kind of like how my kids show up. Like we gotta like get them and check a little bit uh in, they're very price sensitive, but there's a lot of them. And if you can communicate to them in a way they've never heard before, which is what I was doing a lot of, you can switch a lot of light bulbs on, which was really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

So talking about switching light bulbs, I want you to explain to people, because we were talking about this a little bit before, like what are frames and reframes? Yeah. And then as an example, you mentioned like price or distraction or certain light bulbs or belief shifts you had to switch on. Yeah. So then how do you apply that psychology to those people?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Which is like my favorite thing. Yeah. So the way the deal with Iman came about is he was referred to me. This is pretty much how I get all my business these days, is purely on referral. I'm in this weird space, Cole, where there's maybe 25 people that would use my services, but if they use my services, it's impossible for them not to make a whole bunch of money. So I'm really good in these launch environments when there's hundreds of thousands of people to millions of people, large audiences, challenges, webinars, and how do you take somebody in that situation and get the highest conversion rate out of it uh in the most ethical and empowering possible? So Iman comes to me through a referral, and these guys are a month out on the first launch. We did three launches in one year, um, each one bigger than the last. And there's about 29 days until the launch comes, and they're like, okay, what should we do? So I start as a consultant, right? We have this idea, we've done these launches, what are your thoughts? And because I have done so many launches over the last 19 years, I do have unique insights that a lot of people just aren't aware of in these scenarios. And so the first thing they were wondering is, do we do like a big production style launch with the cameras behind us and the full motion and the multi-shot and like an Alex Ramosi style launch like he did in the last book launch? Uh, or do we do like a PowerPoint-intense heavy launch? And I told those guys that I would recommend they do a PowerPoint intensive launch for their challenge because there's the least amount of things that can go wrong. Least variables. And it is actually still, in my opinion, the most effective way that you can create conversion in most situations. Because what at the end of the day, you when you're doing any of these launches, you have to take whatever the market's belief is like what's the constraints? What are the three to five constraints that would stop them from saying yes when they should say yes? Right. And then that's what the presentations end up being is a removal of those constraints. And the most effective way you will remove those is through showing information in the right condition. And visuals, powerpoints, those are typically the best way in order to do that. So that was the first decision we made is we're just gonna build a lot of slides. And I taught them the way that I do slides, which is different than everybody else, I think more effective than everybody else. We can break all that down if we want to. Uh, and then the second thing is Iman's audience is super price sensitive. So the highest that they'd ever sold in their life was a thousand dollars, which to that audience is like a million dollars. Uh and so I told them immediately we got to bump the price up. And they did. Uh, and then even better is how we framed it. So, like this is the first frame. I said, Iman, when you go out there on day one of the challenge, because we're not even gonna pitch until later on, the first day is just kind of setting the overall tone and frame and such. I said, tell them that you will be making an offer, and it is by far the most expensive thing that you have ever sold to the audience. And he did, and he nailed it. Like he sold it so good, he's like, Oh, I'll show you. So he's like, it's gonna be super expensive. And so that's how we set this up. So, you know, professional, we didn't do that. We did PowerPoint, uh, higher price point on these launches, and then framing the price right up front that this is gonna be a significant investment to juxtapose all the free stuff that we're gonna get. So, this is kind of how we eased into this first launch.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

So, most people might be scared to do that, right? Because it seems counterintuitive. So, what's like the psychology behind why that works and also the language you need to couple with that to make it work?

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, so there's such a funny thing about how the human brain works. Uh, it's if you don't state it out loud, people assume the worst. So if you don't say I'm gonna sell you something on these challenges or on these webinars, then they are suspicious. What's the angle? What's the manipulation that he's doing on me to sell me? But then when you flat out say, I'm gonna sell you something, then they're like, Okay, I can let my guard down. I probably won't buy. This is the thinking of the market, right? But at least I know the deal. I know this guy's gonna come here and try to convince me to buy, and I'm going to resist. And then the second thing is if you don't state the number, then there's this uneasiness. So the audience can never feel comfortable in a launch very easily with all these unknowns. Okay. So there's a principle, this cognitive bias, where, like, if you and your friends are trying to find a restaurant and you pull up this new thing and it's like no reviews on Yelp, but it might be promising. Most people will not go to it. They'll instead default to the known, to the familiar, to what's comfortable, even if it's average. Um, because the fear of the unknown is so scary, even when the consequences are minimum. Like we go to a restaurant that's not great, we have a good story to tell. If we go to the restaurant, it's the new hidden gem, now we're cool and we have status. And so a lot of people just can't deal with ambiguity. This is called the ambiguity effect. So we remove the ambiguity, and here's what's great: when you overstate the problem, the brain tends to take it back. So they're gonna say, Oh, well, it can't be that expensive. Like, what's expensive? And now you're actually getting them to feel more comfortable with the price by exaggerating how much it's gonna be. Yeah, is there a way language-wise, you would prefer to do that? Oh, totally. So I I like to you gotta say with confidence, first of all. Yeah, so you gotta own it. And Iman did that beautifully. It like we laugh, like, oh yeah, this shit's gonna be really expensive, right? And then they're like, ooh, I wonder how expensive it's gonna be. Now it's a positive framing. But essentially, the language is listen, I'm gonna show you how to do this on your own for free, and then I'm gonna show you a way we can do this together if you decide to invest. And if you can't invest, then hey, you have to do it for free. That's your only option. Now, if you can't invest, then it's just a decision of whether it makes more sense to invest or to not invest. And now the the language is essentially you are a loser if the only option you have is to do it without spending money, uh-huh. Which is true. If you're a right fit person for whatever you're selling, like the audience is a right fit for it, literally the most expensive option would be to not invest. And then if it's worth doing, you would still do it but not invest. But ideally, if it's worth doing and it makes sense to invest, then investing is the least expensive option out of all of them. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

So I want to move on to another launch, but before I do, yeah, uh a little bit deeper, because I know there was a few fun things that happened during that. So as the launch was going on, I know there was a time where people are demanding that you came back. Yeah. They're like, where is Jason? So explain why you were even like, how are you kind of involved? What like because you were doing a repitch, right? So what's a repitch? How were you involved? Kind of how did that dynamic happen? And then I want to talk about a few objections they had, then we'll move on to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, so the biggest mistake people make during these launches is they get the ball on the one-yard line and then they go to the locker room. What I mean by that is you pay for the lead, you do all the pre-launch stuff, you get them on their live, you present for an hour, hour and a half with the formal slides, and then maybe you take a few questions and you call it a day. Which is insane because like day one, we have 80,000 people on live, and I'm gonna continue to go until I feel like nobody has anything left to ask anymore. So this could be two or three or four hours just after the presentation is done. Because we lose nothing if you do this correctly, we only stand to gain, and the only cost involved is the time that it takes. And it's like, God, if we get them this far and they're this committed, and then we leave when they're still interested, like we have done them no favors. So this is a mistake everybody is making, is it's hard to go too long in this situation as long as you know what you're doing. And so on day one, when we're not even selling anything, I'm still with that audience after Iman's formal presentation is done. He brings me in, and then I do two, three hours with the audience on day one. And then day two, which is when we pitch. Um, by the way, when they came to me, they were thinking I'm pitching on day three or day four. I think it was day four on a five-day challenge that they were thinking of pitching. And I was immediately like, we should move this up to day two because the offer's good enough that they could understand the value of it and be ready to make a purchasing decision on day two. And so, to those guys' credit, um, unlike a lot of clients that pay me and then don't listen to me, these guys listen to me really well, and they moved it to day two. So on day two we're pitching, and so I come in and do like three hours more of pitching on day two, and then three hours more on day three, and three hours more on day four. Cole, it it blows my mind how few people like if all they did was hire me to come in and pitch for them, how much more money they would make. But everybody thinks that the presenter's also got to be the pitch person, and because they're done presenting and then they go into the pitch, they're too tired, and so they don't see what I've been known to be true in terms of making money, which is the more you pitch, the more likely you're gonna get the people who should buy to buy.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah. And they liked it so much they were asking where you were the next day.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

So this is Jedi level, like my young, aspiring closers out there, this is the ultimate level you can get to, right? This took me 12 years to master. But there's a way, and I've proven it over and over again, where the pitching can be so valuable that people will want to be pitched because it is like an educational course that they would buy. It makes them better and it makes them more likely to buy. And that's the level of the game that I have ascended to at this point in time. It's I still can't believe it, to be honest with you, but there's a way where you can sell very hard, very aggressively, and have people enjoy the process so much, and the ones who purchase, purchase, and the ones who don't wish they could purchase and they can't get enough of you. So this is like a coaching session with all the value of coaching, but also a selling session with all the hard-hitting sales closes that you could imagine. And I employed hundreds of those closes throughout, you know, these four days that I was selling.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah. And what's interesting is that you know, a lot of people rip on because to this point of selling to somebody, and then it's like, I want to sell you so well that you freaking love it. Yeah, I think you know, a lot of people rip on Grant Cardones, like sales training or whatever, and they say it's like archaic or the tactics don't work. I think that why he does so well is that he's funny. Yeah. And he makes it like this fun type of process. And I found, especially in one-to-one selling, the more I can like add a little bit of humor in there in the close, yeah, it's like a direct correlation between I can actually come harder at you if I can also like let out those release valves of a little bit of humor.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah, I mean, humor, we use it all the time in selling. We want to use every emotional state possible that we can when we're closing. So we use anger, we use sadness, we use humor, we use happiness, we use gratitude, we use optimism, we use pessimism. We use every useful state possible because different people will buy for different reasons. Uh, and then we use logic, we use emotion, we use uh moving towards, moving away from languaging, timelines, like we can get super geeky into the whole thing, but everybody's gonna have their main reason for purchasing. And so we have to unlock every single perspective that would cause the right person to buy. And that's what we're doing in that situation. And that's it's really fun. And that's the most difficult audience that I've ever sold to because they're the most cynical, and they are the ones that are the most skeptical, and they are the youngest audience I've ever sold to, and we're selling in an environment that's not conducive to selling because YouTube Live comment section is is like it's not a good place to be selling.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Well, I was about to move on, but now you gotta tell me, okay, with all those obstacles, yeah, how do you overcome that from a objection handling standpoint?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah, it's it was tough. So day one of the launch, this is not even when we're selling a product. I came in. We have you ever done a Russian banya before? What is that? It is insane, okay? Like you go to this place, we're in Dubai. So, first of all, I flew in the day before. I know what it is. I'm jet-legged off of my ass. But you should tell people what it is. I will tell. So I'm jet legged off my ass. I I'm 42 at the time. These guys are all like 25, like on Iman's team. So I'm an old guy. Uh I'm jet-legged, I'm tired. We got a presentation that night. We go to Russian Banya, which is insane. You know, like cold plunging in the US, like they're like, if you ever feel a little bit tired, just let us know. If you're a little dizzy, we'll get you out of the water. If it's a little too hot, we'll cool it down. But a Russian Banya is like, you will go until you either die or I tell you to get out of the pool. Like, and they beat you with these sticks, and it's super hot and it's super cold. It's crazy. It's awesome, but it's it's a new experience to me. So we're at the banya. I'm looking at the slide presentation that they spec'd out, and I'm like, guys, there's some issues here from a pacing perspective. It's going a little too long in these points, audience is gonna get restless. So I'm like, cut, I cut out about 200 slides out of their presentation, and I'm generally a guy who adds slides to most presentations because people are missing them. And but I saw there was pacing stuff, so we pulled some of that out. I knew it was still gonna be a challenge, uh, but it was what we could do given the time constraint that we had. So we get on there day one, and this is I don't think it would have mattered what we did from a presentation. I think this sentiment of the audience, the audience we were serving was get to the point, I want to know right away, tell me exactly what to do. I don't need all this fluff, I don't need all this setup. Uh and then they were getting angry in the chat and they were putting these L's in the chat, which this is a new thing for me. I'd never seen it before. So, like L's in the chat are like not going well. Right. Uh and then social contamination is when one starts to do it, they all start to do it, and there's a lot of bitching and there's a lot of negativity. Now, if you're selling, like here's a mistake a lot of people make the chat is not generally representative of whether you're doing a good job or not from a sales perspective. Because the real buyers, they don't often comment and they're not actively in the chat because it's distracting. Like they're deciding, do I like this? Do I want to buy it? Shut up, take my money, kind of a thing, right? Um, so it's not a good temperature taking of whether you're on track or not. But nonetheless, if there's opportunity to flip some of those people, this is where the real money is made in these launches. Like if you want to break records, if you sell the people that are already ready to buy, you do good. But if you can take the people that might buy and get them to buy, that's when you do great. So this audience is really rough. So I come in, Iman's done with the slide, he brings me in. So day one, the frame is I'm gonna answer questions to help them understand how they can best use this information. So I come in and I say, okay, listen, there's a few things we need to get straight before we go further. So this is immediately setting an authority frame. And so this sets me up as an authority to this audience to listen to, and it also clears the previous frames that have been set. Whether you do it intentionally or not, a frame is always created. So the frame before was this, I want to know right away, give it to me right now, this petulance kind of a thing. Uh so I come into them and I say, all right, uh, we got to clear a few things up before we go further. Uh, let me tell you a story about this marshmallow experiment that was done at Stanford, where they took these young kids, they put marshmallows in front of them, they said, if you eat one now, you get it, but if you wait 15 minutes, you get another one, you get two. And they watched these kids. And the kids who ate the marshmallows right away later in life didn't do so good. The kids who could wait just a little bit, I'm not talking a long time, just a little bit, they tracked them later on in life and they were super successful. So now I've already kind of set up the stakes, right? It's like if you want to behave like you've just behaved, you are gonna be a failure. If you want to have a little bit of patience, you could be successful. So this is already the first part of it. The second part then, and this is an indirect communication. So if you directly tell somebody, hey, listen, you need to delay gratification, they're gonna push back on you. When you tell somebody what to do directly, they generally will resist it.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Right. Well, you're telling them a story, they can see themselves in the story, and then also embedded in that story was a choice of who do you want to be. Correct. And the behavior, identity is the highest driver of behavior, so the behaviors are under, they're influenced by the identity.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yeah, so I love frames where like if you don't take it, nothing is lost, and if you do take it, something is gained. Yeah. So now I add to it. I said, those same scientists, they wondered, could you teach the kids who didn't have impulse control to have impulse control? Turned out they went back to those, you know, the kids who ate the marshmallow right away, and then they taught them how to delay gratification just for a little bit. They measured them late in life, and they were just as successful as the kids who had it naturally. So now I give them a second frame again with a story that you can change your behavior and get a benefit. Like you're not screwed by having a bad behavior because we can fix it. So now this gives me more authority. And then I add one more little extra story in there that's a little bit more direct that they could relate to to prove the point. Because this is a concept that they have no frame of reference around. So I said, I want you to think of your favorite movie. If you jump just to the last five minutes of it, would it still be your favorite movie? And now they're like, oh, I get it. Like this behavior is not serving me like the masses, right? And then I said, okay, so let's get down to business. And now I have them. Now that the authority's been set, now I have 60,000 some odd people at this time dropping W's in the chat, and now they're ready to listen to me because I've demonstrated immediately something that was that that made them reflect on themselves and consider is this behavior serving me? Oh no, it isn't. I better adapt a better behavior if I want to win, and this guy's made me aware of it, so now I'm ready to listen to anything he's about to say.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Okay, and one more question. How do you think about pacing and tonality? Because one of the things you just did there was, would it still be your favorite movie? Yeah. Right? Like, and I you you did it better than even I can't reenact how you did it. But are you how do you think about the pacing and emphasizing certain words? Because that's something in presentation you do really well. Yep. You know, somebody's gonna watch one of your presentations to really get it.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yeah. It's everything. I mean, most communication is non-verbal. Now, if you have like the right mental attitude, generally the tonality will follow. Because if I feel confident, I will speak in confidence. But if I'm not sure and I'm uncertain, then you know I will speak with with uncertainty. And I I won't want to have pauses because uh you you might leave if I pause. But if I'm like totally locked in, I'm like, all right, listen. So this is how I this was the tonality. Like, we need to have a conversation. So this is the stern father tonality. Yeah, right. It's the frame. Yes, the frame. The frame is like, you and I need to have a a meeting of the minds because I'm seeing something here that I don't like, so let's address it. So this is like so important on tone. I will say though, and this is funny, Cole, for a lot of the clients that I work with, because even with Iman, if You watch him and he's reading off of a script, it's not the most dynamic presentation you've ever heard in your life. Uh, but I would prefer you to be flat and read the words correctly in these sales environments for most of my clients than to try to be dynamic in your speaking because in mass, word choice is so critically important and it's the easiest variable for us to control when we're selling. But the great thing is, why not have both? So we have a formal structured presentation in that webinar or challenge, but we also have the informal portion where I come in without a net and who knows where it's gonna go. So it's not one or the other, and this is a mistake everybody makes in their business cole and in these webinars and in these challenges and in these launches. They think, well, this is the best way to do it, so we will do it this way. And we're like, well, there's value in informal and there's value in formal, so let's do both. There's value in being direct and aggressive, and there's value in being indirect and unaggressive. Let's do both. We should have as many perspectives as possible that somebody could look at the opportunity and say, I want this. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

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SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah, so all the way back at 2007, I got crazy one day and I was like, man, I need to create an info product, but I wanted to create a info product for two years, and I never could do it. So I sat down and I said, the only way I'm ever gonna get this done is if I do it in one sitting. So I two hours locked in, wrote up this little guy, this PDF that taught people how to write articles faster, which was a big deal at the time. And that worked out really, really well. And I discovered this little hack, which is still super valuable to this day. If you teach people how to do something faster, real fast, they will buy. Because they'll be like, damn, if I do this thing and it takes me forever, and I can pay you a small amount of money and I can get it done sooner, that's a good deal. I can make my money back the first, second, third time I use the product that I purchased from you. So this is just selling time at a discount.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Yeah, and you know, just to not cut you off, but I think there was, I was listening to an overview of some of the most fastest growing tech companies right now. All of them just promised something that was existing in the market at half the speed.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

That's exactly what it's like.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

It's like so it's such a fundamental basic thing, and we just totally, you know, we just overlook it. It's just a fundamental basic.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Easy as hack. Like if you can sell the same value, we're not talking about improving it, just the same thing, same quality at the same price, but get them there in half the time, you will print money. You will crush the competition. So I stumbled over this. So then I started creating little products that did that, and then I even created an info product and how I was creating info products really quickly. Uh, and we called it, I called it the 48-hour report, which was how to create an info product in two days or less from scratch on a topic you knew nothing about. I built a little system for it, and that product sold really well. So the audience was like, I want to know more about this. Can you teach me more? Can we go more in depth in it? So this is uh something people gloss over. I already had pent-up demand for this thing on a small level, a low-ticket product, because I sold this thing very cheaply, $7. I think I got crazy and went to $17 for this little ebook. And so I knew I had a concept that worked, so I changed it. I went from instead of selling the product for $17, can I turn it into a presentation that I give away for free that would then sell a coaching program for $500 on the topic. So instead of having like, you know, 20 pages or 10 pages in an ebook, I could do six coaching sessions, two hours a piece, with a live group teaching them all my info product creation secrets that I knew of at the time in 2008. So this is this is where we did this webinar. So, but nobody had a formula back then, including me. Like there was no, you couldn't go buy one to many on Amazon and just say paint by numbers. Here's the thing that Jason does first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, etc. It was kind of like, uh, I don't know what the hell to say or do on this webinar. And so here's here was my thinking process at the time, which I still use to this day. This wasn't intentional, this was accidental, but it worked really well. I said, God, I don't like how webinars at the time were very bait and switch. Come here, I will show you this all for free. I'm such a great guy out of the genuine kindness of my heart. This is almost like an act of charity, right? Psych bitch, give me your money, right? Like that's what it felt like to me. So I'm like, I'm not comfortable with that. So how can I be comfortable with it? So I did uh a thing that I still do to this very day. I said, listen, I have two objectives on this webinar. My first is to give you the very best lesson you could ever have in 45 minutes on how to create digital products. My second objective is to sell you something at the end of this presentation. Now, if I can't give you the best lesson, don't buy from me. Don't give me your money ever. But if on a small chance, a miracle perhaps that I can actually give you this lesson, then you should feel obligated to purchase when I'm selling at the end if you're a right fit. Do we have a deal? And I'm like, I had no idea at the time how powerful that was. That was purely just to make me feel comfortable enough so I could go forward with it.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah, and explain to people why that's a powerful because you're creating an agreement and there's things embedded into that agreement. So break that down.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah, so the agreement frame is the most powerful thing. Yep. I basically say, here are the conditions in which we can do business, and if you accept those conditions, then if as long as I fulfill on them, the likelihood of you buying is significantly high. So this is commitment. So if you want to get anybody to do anything, you first ask them a small thing that will form an identity, and then you ask them the big thing. So if you say, Do you feel adventurous? and they say yes, and then you say, sign up for my email list, they go, Okay, because now it feels cool. Like you're like, oh, that's an adventurous thing to do something new. But if you just say to sign up for my email list, the compliance rate on that is very low. Um, kids are really good at this, they're very natural at this. They'll say things like, Dad, do you love me? Of course I love you. And you want what's best for me, don't you? Yes, okay. Well, I have a D in math right now. And you're like, okay, well, let's see, you feel better about it. But if they say, Dad, I have a D in math right now, what the hell are you doing? Like you get pissed. So I had a commitment frame in there, an agreement frame. I also had this excitement that is wrapped around what we're doing. Like most people just get on and they start talking at their audience and they don't create a lean-in moment. They don't create this thing of like, this is gonna be different than what I'm used to. There's gonna be something here. There's stakes involved. And hey, will he do it or will he not do it? So there's tension. Like, Cole, we take this for granted now because like on Instagram and on YouTube, everybody knows about curiosity loops, open loops, and you know, tension resolution, tension, you know, stories where you're like, and but therefore, like all of this shit is known today. But back then, as dinosaurs, we were like figuring this out as we went along. So we didn't know anything about curiosity loops, but I created one. It's like the tension was there. Will he give the best lesson or not? Which is stronger than I will give you the best lesson. They're like, okay, cool. If he does, it's to my best interest. But if he doesn't, I'm gonna grab the popcorn. This train wreck's gonna be fun to watch.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Nice. And so how did you structure it so that it was the best lesson and you could actually meet those obligations? And then I'm sure as you're doing that, what else did you do persuasively to build the beliefs they needed to believe to be true to purchase at the end?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

So the good news was this was already a product initially. So I said, how do I just teach the product? I'm just gonna teach them the outcome from that product and teach it in less than 45 minutes. So if I only had 45 minutes to give them the exact plan on how to create products on their own, then that's a win for me. And I did that. Now, again, this is like the curse of knowledge kills so many of us, Cole, because now I know about 150 ways to create a digital product, and I know like 172 different ways on which you can do market research, etc. But back then I knew one way. So I couldn't over-teach because I could teach everything I knew on that one narrow specific topic in one session, right? And that's actually really good strategy. Like narrow the focus of the webinar down so small that it's impossible to over-teach. The rule of one. Yeah, this is great. So for me, my whole premise was one problem, one solution, one sitting information products. So find a problem that's narrow enough that you could solve it for somebody in one sitting, and then only solve it one way. Don't give them three options or two options, give them one. Because that's all I knew how to do, which is brilliant. Because we we remove choice fatigue, the paradox of choice, decision-making uh fatigue, all that kind of stuff. It's very crystal clear. People can see themselves doing it, they believe it. And I was also like, and sell it super cheaply. That was the other punchline. Because it's like, how are you going to really do something great in one sitting? Don't make it an impulse purchase. So I was just teaching what I knew. It just so happened that it checked all these persuasive boxes that I was unaware even existed. And what was the demo pitch?

SPEAKER_02 32:34

That was part of this, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Yeah, so this was during the offer. I would say, listen, I am so confident in the ability to follow this system that I'm going to create a new product from scratch during the coaching sessions that we're gonna go through. And you will tell me what product you want me to create. The group will vote on it, whatever you pick. I will prove to you between session number two and session number three of our coaching program in less than a week, I will launch a product from scratch in front of your very eyes. And this is powerful because now we're demonstrating the value instead of just talking about the value. Now, here's where I got really lucky and later on became strategic about it. I said, not only will I create the product, I will give you the product, not just for personal use, I will allow you to resell the product and keep 100% of the profits. And what I didn't know is I essentially guaranteed, Cole, everybody would have a digital product by the time this coaching program was done.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

That's good. And so what you're doing there, they're doing a lot of things there. One of them, and you do this really well studying your stuff, is you always show versus tell. And so explain the importance of that and then how that actually, how does that actually manifest when you're actually live selling?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah, that's a great point. And you know, now, so you and I are both in the social media rabbit hole trying to figure out like YouTube and all that kind of stuff. And I've been analyzing and I'm like, man, all the best YouTube videos now do this. Like they show a point more than tell it. Talking head, exposition, boring as shit alive, right? Now, if you want to really learn something and somebody's telling you what to do step by step, that's useful. But showing is always better than telling. So showing somebody that, like, for example, with me, showing them that I know how to do webinars is easy because I'd be like, give me an objection. And then I just close it right there on the spot. Give me a challenge. Somebody'd be like, Jason, how to start a webinar? I say, I like a pop quiz. They're like, How do you do a pop quiz? I'm like, well, give me your topic. And they give it to me. I go, okay, and then immediately do a pop quiz right in front of them. So I'm demonstrating my knowledge in real time without a net. And that's one of the ways you show something. Another way you show something is what I was showing there specifically of like one problem, one solution, one sitting. I was showing them how easily it was to find one problem. I was showing them the framework that I used. They could look at that framework and they can say, wow, even an idiot like myself could follow that framework. It would be harder to fail at it than to not fail at it. And so visually showing the outcome in a way that somebody could easily understand it is another way to show it. And so we always, and it doesn't come easy. So what you first do is you put it all out there, everybody's gonna just tell all over the place, they're gonna talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And then when you go back when your presentation is done and it's written, you say, if I had to show this in action, in motion, what could that look like? And then you replace as many tell moments as possible with show moments. I'll give you one of my favorite ones, and we'll talk about this launch in a bit. But during the ASM days, the Amazon selling machine where we broke the affiliate record, I had a better than money back guarantee, and I just didn't say, hey, listen, if your business doesn't work, I will buy your business from you. That's telling. I said, here's a letter from my banker of a brand new bank account that we opened up that we put a million dollars cash in. And here's the phone number if you want to call and verify the deposit for yourself of the balance we have in here. So if I have to buy your business, I have the war chest in order to do so. So I showed my intention. I just didn't talk about my intention.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

And what that is also, and you did this with the the the first one, the demo pitch, yeah, right? With both of those, you're issuing a challenge, right? Yeah. Essentially to them. Yeah. Where you're kind of like putting all the pressure on you. Correct. Do you do that every time or was that just those specific promotions?

SPEAKER_00 36:31

I try to, yeah. So the more, it's so funny, the more you can shift risk from the customer to you, the better you will sell. And what's funny is what's risky to you might be super risky to the customer, but actually not very risky to you at all. So what we're trying to do is risk arbitrage here. So I'm like, okay, how can I take something that is not risky at all for me, but is incredibly risky for my user and take on that risk on their behalf. So I de-risk it for them, and that's the number one reason people will buy coal. Out of everything I've ever learned in my 19 years in this business, 250 million plus in sales, the biggest sales lesson I've ever learned is the more we can remove risk, the more we will sell. If we can remove risk 100%, we will have a close rate of 100%. Now you can't 100% remove risk, but you try to come as close as possible. And so I am trying to figure out ways in which I can remove risk. One time we had a Facebook course that we were selling, and my guarantee there was listen, if you follow the system exactly as we describe it, and you spend 5,000 or up to 5,000 on your ads, and you don't get a positive return on your ad spend, I will cover the cost so your ads become free. And now we have de-risked the ability to run ads for those users. And we we put conditions in and all that stuff, of course, right? So we're always looking at how do we remove the risk of somebody trying this and failing? And I think that's where the big wins come from. And so every single time I'm doing an offer, I'm like, the demonstration more than anything should be to remove risk. This is why I like selling software, because I can remove the risk of implementation by showing them how few steps is required and done for you is even better because I remove the risk of them implementing it because we implement it for them.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Right. And so hold that thought. We'll talk about that later when we get to the plan. Yeah. But go to ASM. Yep. And so this is one of your really probably breakout career moments. Yeah. So again, you kind of alluded to it, you broke the affiliate record of all time. You might still hold that, right? Still hold it. So what was ASM?

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

And then talk about we all already talked about the guarantee, but how did you think about packaging that entire offer in copy platformslash presentation to make it as persuasive as possible?

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah, so it's the end of 2012, it's December. And every single time in my life, Cole, before we would promote somebody as an affiliate, I would vet the course. I would look at it, is it good? I'd look at the presentation, is it going to be valuable whether somebody buys it or not? Because I always want to add value to my audience. And I was one of the few guys that actually did that. Most people are like, ah, screw it. I heard it has good EPCs, earnings per click. I'll just throw it out there because I want the money. I don't care about the audience. Uh, but because it was the end of the year, I was burnt out, I was exhausted. A friend of mine, James Jones, says, hey, you guys should promote these new guys. Nobody'd ever heard of these guys. Uh, they were new to the industry. Uh, Matt Clark, Jason Katzen back. And so we throw on a webinar. I don't even show up for it. First webinar of my life, I never reviewed it. First product I never took a look at. It was a clickbank product, by the way, too. So it was like a weird kind of thing you wouldn't expect to do really well. And it was on physical products, and all we taught back then was digital products. Everything was digital because digital was the future. Uh, and then I looked at the numbers from that promotion and it was insane. Like the conversion rate was out of this world, and the response rate from my customers was like, Thank you for letting me know about this. They were so appreciative. And I'm like, huh, there's something here. Like, there's some money. So those guys come back to us at the beginning of 2013 and said, We're gonna do a big launch this year, and we're gonna do it for $3,500 front-end price. When at the time the Jeff Walker $2,000 product launch formula was everything. Everybody did it at that price point. And they're like, You want to promote? And I'm like, Yes. They're like, okay, we're opening car in April, it's January right now, we'll see you then. So I'm like, well, I know this thing's a winner. It's a hidden gold mine that nobody is aware of. And so I said, I need to tool up in advance to create as many resources as possible to help me get the highest conversion rate on this because anybody else promoting this, they have no idea how good this offer is. So I had a little bit of insider information. So one of the things that I did was I started my own Amazon business, which was insane because hey, I was a digital product guy, but I'm like, I want to have a business that has proof when this goes live that I'm following the very thing that I'm recommending. And then I'm like, I'm going to create my own presentation for it. I'm not going to send it to their guys' funnel, which is a really good funnel, but then I wouldn't have any differentiation from any other affiliate who would also send it to the same funnel. And then I'm going to add my own bonuses. And this is to this day, the easiest way to improve an offer for most people is to find the right extra stuff you can give away for free when they buy the thing that you're selling. And so I started building bonuses months in advance of this offer going live. So this is ASM 1. They launch it, we knife in there, we promote it, we crush everybody. Number one affiliate by a large margin. And I don't remember how much money it was, but at the time it was a lot. So then six months later, they launch ASM2. Number one affiliate again, more money this time, life is good. We added more bonuses between ASM 1 and ASM2, so we had new deliverables. We saw what happens with the users who bought where the constraint points were, so we removed some of those constraints. We captured proof, so now we had a documentation of success stories. ASM2 does good, ASM3 comes along. Now, these leaderboards and these launches, Cole, they will have badges. You know, first sell badge, fifth cell, tenth cell, 50th, 100, 200. This one had badges up to 300 cells. So 300 cells on a $3,500 product. Pretty good, right? Nobody thought anybody would hit 300, perhaps. Maybe they would. We blew through that. They didn't have a badge for us. So they made a badge specifically for us, put our face on it, because we outsold everybody to a point that was insane. I think we sold 330 uh units at $3,500 a point. So what does that total to like how much? I don't know, but it was a lot of money, right? Yeah. And then that was just to start to cook because ASM 4 comes along. This is six months later, so we beef up more bonuses, we start playing with a guarantee now, we improve the presentation. ASM4 comes through and we sell $1,300 units at $3,500. So now this is like stupid money. Like just it's it's insane. Um, so they take us all out to the Cayman Islands and they bring out all the top 10 affiliates there. They sit us down, they have a whiteboard on the middle of the beach by the ocean. It's the most surreal scenario. And they go, Hey, how can we help you affiliates make more money? And everybody starts throwing out ideas, this, that, this, that. And I said, There's one thing you can do that will make us all a bunch more money, and they say, What is it? I said, Raise the price. And they're like, What do you mean? I'm like, it's at $3,500 right now. If you raise it to $5,000 for a front-end product, and by the way, Cole, back then nobody had phone readings.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Nobody was doing phone sales, like three guys did it and then got arrested practically. Like the FTC came in, like, you you frickin' clowns need to stop doing this shit, right? So this was all direct to cart back then. Um, and I remember they looked at me and they say, Okay, so you're saying conversion will go down, but the net profit will be. Good enough to justify the decrease in conversion because we'll make more overall. And I said, that's the least likely thing to happen. I said, there's only three things that can happen when you raise the price. One is true, conversion could go down, the other is conversion could stay the same, or conversion could go up. And this is what I said to these guys, and this is something so few people understand, Cole, is I'm like, I asked him a series of questions. I said, has the product gotten significantly better from ASM1 to 2 to 3 to 4? And they're like, oh, miles better. Like way better. I said, so here's my problem selling it right now. I said, I can't tell people it's better if the price has always stayed the same. They won't believe me. They'll think I'm lying to them, or they won't believe that it actually has gotten better because when things get significantly better, price is supposed to go up. Like this is illogical. But if the if the price is increased, then not only is that actually more truthful for the audience to understand, but it puts more scarcity and urgency behind this because it could go up again. And so this was a good angle for us. So conversions for us went up at a $5,000 price point, and we sold 1,900 some odd units, I believe. I know what we sold from a dollars perspective, it was $9.8 million in eight days. Nice. And it was insane. And this was ASM5, and it was just an evolution of improving the offer of deliverables and bonuses, improving the presentation, and then figuring out more ways to remove risk. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

A lot of people don't even understand that pricing is the number one signal of quality. Right? Yeah. Like even if you're on a phone sale, if you're working with an agency and the agency pitches you like three grand a month, you know they suck.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Like, you know, I mean, and really what happens is you know they literally cannot run a business on those prices. No. So they don't really have a business. It's just some kid in his mom's basement who has 10 clients. Yep. Right. So a lot of times that's how so because people are like, well, how would pricing go up and my conversion go up? Well, there is a certain point where that does happen, and it's because the pricing signals quality, which also signals trust.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

You know? So talk about one of the things with that webinar, studying it that I noticed you did really well, is preempting all the objections super aggressively.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

So like walk through, I mean, you could even just, if you remember, what was the language you even used to do that?

SPEAKER_00 46:32

So I don't think, Cole, anybody alive more aggressively preempts objections than you can. I don't think I don't think so either. It is to an insane degree that is almost intimidating for most people. But I would suggest more people play with this. So in the very beginning of this webinar, I won't remember the exact words, but it went something like this. I'm like, I stand before you today with a tall task. I believe I have the greatest thing that you could ever use to grow your business in line, but I'm afraid that if I bring this up, you're gonna reject it and you're gonna kick it out because you're gonna say, I don't have the money to do this, Jason, and you're gonna say, there's too much time involved and I have less time than ever before. And you're gonna be worried that you don't have the abilities to do it because you don't think that you're qualified enough or that your skill set is lacking. And then you're also gonna be confused because Guru A tells you this and Guru B tells you that, and they contradict each other. And if I show you results, you're not gonna believe me. You're gonna think I made those results up or that I lied about those results or that I somehow misrepresented them. And then even if you believe the results are true, you're gonna think, well, it works for them, but it will never work for me. Like I I had 15 major objections in the first three slides of that webinar that I brought up. Like immediately, like I and then I'll say, it won't even matter. I go, if I show you results like Mario, who's doing 100,000 a month, or results like this person doing 50,000 a month, or this person doing 200,000, or this person doing 400,000, or this person doing 300,000 per month, none of that will matter because everything I show you, you will reject and you will kick out because you have these inbuilt biases. And if we don't first remove these biases, then nothing I say will matter. So I'm like setting the frame early on of like, here's every objection you could possibly have on it. I don't resolve them, by the way. I do not solve them. I merely lay them all out and then ask them to agree to at least listen with an open mind. That's the only sell I'm making in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

It's basically asking them to suspend disbelief. Yes, correct. Essentially what it is.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yeah, I'm just like, give me a fair shake. Right now, you are prejudiced against what I say, and that's gonna prevent you from absorbing anything I give you, you will immediately kick it out. So don't believe everything I say. I'm not asking you to do that. I'm asking you to consider it with an open mind, and then if it makes sense, it makes sense, and if it doesn't, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

So a couple things I think that makes that work so well. Number one, nobody does that, and it's so by the nature of that, it is a pattern interrupt. Yeah. Because literally nobody does that. In fact, they do the exact opposite and pretend all the objections don't exist. Yeah. Right? I mean, that's what people in one-to-one selling do too. The other thing that I thought was really interesting as you were doing that, I don't know if you just did this on purpose or you just do it naturally, is when you started, your pacing and your energy actually goes up as you did. You do that on purpose? Yeah. Or is that so why do you do that? Oh, because because let me ask, because I could see, let's say, one of my clients, even me maybe, trying to do the same thing, but then doing it with maybe a flatter cadence and tonality, and people were like, What is this? You know, but with yours, it was like the energy rises the entire time. So what's the thinking behind that? And like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

So there's a couple things going on there. One is you have to pace and you have to lead. So if you come out and you're at an energetic mismatch with your audience, then you're out of rapport instantly. Right. And so your audience is not coming in all jacked up and all hyped up, right? They're coming. You gotta meet them where they're at, and then you can shift them to go where you want to go. Uh, but the second reason too is we're really trying to get that excitement level to match the next section that we go into, which is the gain. So I always start in pain and I always end in gain at the beginning of the webinar. So as I'm building up and getting excited and getting excited, this is where we're gonna start. Then what could be possible? So we start with, okay, it could be this, but it could be this, and it could be this, and it could be this. This is a challenge, this is a challenge, and then I go, and then I'm like, all right, boom. So now they know like this is different. Like emotionally, I've got them in a heightened state where they're now most receptive to hear the benefits, but I built up to it by gradually and uh aggressively, but slowly and certainly within a few minutes getting them to that point. And I'm also getting myself into that state, like I can't just switch it on very easily. Yeah, but you know, this is advanced. I think if most people just used the words and didn't have to worry about all the other nonverbal communication, they would see a significant improvement.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

No, I think they would too. And then so then there was this thing called the launch pad that was on the back of this right. What was that?

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Brilliant. So my favorite webinar out of everyone I've ever did, and almost nobody's ever seen it. So customer webinars are the best webinars you could ever write. So 99% of webinars are front-end customer facing, where it's like, you don't know me, come to this webinar. First business we ever do is at the end of the webinar where I sell you something. Or I mean, nowadays there's a low-ticket funnel, but you buy like a $7 product and you don't even really consume it. You're still pretty much front-end real first significant investment you make is with whatever's being sold on the webinar. Now, my best sales pitch I could ever do is a really good product. There is never a better sales pitch in the world than a product that is so unbelievably good that it completely changes somebody's life. And so people forget that. They get so caught up in the webinar itself. But what we were selling, ASM produced at that time more successes than any program in the history of online business had ever produced on the internet. And to this day, still one of the most successful products to ever exist. Um, so we would sell a lot of people. If I had 15,000 people that bought that program, which we did, we had about 17,000 people, 67 million dollars in sales that we referred to that product over uh six ASM launches. And if you think about it, if I only have 300 clients out of those 15,000 that built a million-dollar Amazon business, which I did, I have 300 first generation Amazon millionaires that I started from scratch, that I was the conduit of their success. I was the person that switched that light on for them. So, who better to sell something to than people who you made millionaires from scratch? These are the webinars that we should spend the most time on. And people spend the least time on them. They don't even spend any time on them because they don't do them. So we write a webinar. Now here's a problem with a webinar poll that nobody talks about, and it's a big problem. Successful people don't attend webinars. They're too busy. I don't attend webinars. I very rarely do, and if I do, I catch the recording. If it's really serious, I have my assistant attend the webinar and then give me the notes. Nowadays the AI is doing it, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:37

I don't even attend webinars of investment call updates that are updating me on what I did with my own money. Correct. So I'm not gonna, I'm probably not gonna opt into one on Facebook.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

So I get these share, I'm sure you get them too, because you know, we have a lot of money in a lot of different places. You know, my financial advisor puts it in. I'm in funds I don't even necessarily understand. And then I'll get these text messages. Valued shareholder, we have this meeting coming up because we have all this capital and we want you to know how we're allocating it. And I'm like, I don't care. Yeah, I don't even show up to those, right? Um, so you have to create conditions for those types of people to show up. They will show up if you make the invitation so specific and exact and direct to them. And that's what we essentially did. So this is like if you're an Amazon seller who's selling this much, who has this much product, who has this these issues. And so only people that were successful Amazon sellers that were hitting a constraint and plateauing at their level of success, that's the only people that were interested in coming. So we made the invitation super specific to them. And that was the first thing we did. The second thing that we did is we had such a good reason why that this product was going to be incredibly limited. And that was because we had figured out how to really rank products on Amazon to a degree that if Amazon knew how well we had cracked their algorithm, they would change their algorithm. Yeah. And they eventually did, which is crazy that a small town Iowa boy like me could influence the largest e-com platform in existence. But hey, anything's possible. So we were like, hey, listen, we only have a hundred spots that we're gonna test this on because we want to make sure that we don't break, break it for everybody. So we have to limit. So we have massive scarcity, and scarcity is the number one driver to conversion. The more scarcer resources and the more demand for it, the easier it is to sell. And so we had not artificial scarcity, we had hardcore, legitimate, reason-wise scarcity is we are testing this with a small group of entrepreneurs. We don't think it will go weird on Amazon because we're so under the radar, but hey, we don't know. So do you want to be one of our 100 guinea pigs? Now we told them in advance we are gonna sell you this software on the webinar. So to a successful business owner, letting them know you're going to sell a product that's really amazing is actually super attractive. It's like saying we have a new Ferrari out, you get to come to the showroom to consider to be one of the 10 people who could buy this new Ferrari, right? So we are straight up with the product. Now we get them on there and we're like, hey, listen, I'm gonna show you the software, which I think revolutionizes everything you can do with Amazon, but to get there, we first must set the stage. So we let them know that there's something to be sold, but and you see this on phone sales all the time. People are like, what's the price? They want to know what the price is up front.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

And yeah, they say, well, we'll get there, but hold on, all these things need to happen first. And they're like, why? I just need to know the price. So you have to have the ability to have a good reason to build up to the point so they have the proper context in order to appreciate the value. So we had that there, right? So this was the frame of the software. Now, here's what's really cool about this product call, and a lot of people don't get this, and this is something I've done so well with in my life, is you want to have things that have less to them, but do them better. So let me describe this. So we all know ClickFunnels, right? Yep. ClickFunnels is the funnel builder. If you want to build a funnel, it can do it. If you want to make it red, it can make it red. If you want to make it pink, it can make it pink. If you want to use this font, it can do this font. If you want to have it for any type of service, product, e-com, what have you, multi-level marketing, it can do all of that and more. It's a Swiss Army knife solution. And that's good for masses, okay? But what we have discovered is if you really want to help somebody, you don't add features, you remove on essential features to and until only the essential is left. So we essentially built a funnel builder for Amazon sellers and only Amazon sellers. And you would only buy this if you were an Amazon seller who was trying to rank products on Amazon in a certain specific way. Because nobody in Amazon selling at that point in time could do any of this on their own with any third-party funnel builder. They'd have to custom code it and hire their own programmers. And even then, it was super duper difficult. So we built a software that had baked-in features that made Amazon sellers now be able to build funnels to rank their products easier than you could in ClickFunnels, but in a way that no other funnel builder in the world could do it. And it was the easiest software you could ever use because you basically checked a couple boxes, filled in a few points, and then it was done and it printed it. Now, could you change the font? No. Could you change the background color? No. Could you restyle the template? Not if your life depended on it, right? But you could put your ASIN in here, you could check this box, you could put these keywords in here, and you could select the funnels you wanted to run at Inter, you could drop your coupon codes into it, and then it would auto-rotate it logically in a way that we knew would increase rankings on Amazon. So we had the most specialized, most specific software on the planet, and we charge $10,000 a year per license. And the first time we do this webinar, I dropped the link 42 minutes in. I get into my stance to pitch for the next couple hours because that's what I'm used to doing. Five minutes later, we had sold out all 100 units. We sold 112 units, I believe, at $10,000 a pop. We made like $1.29 million on a webinar in 47 minutes. Insane.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Yeah. It just goes to show a good offer beats all the persuasion.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

We had 500 people, 587 people that we could even invite to the webinar because it was a sub-segment of a sub segment of a customer who had paid at least $3,500 on the front end who have got a good result from us. So it's amazing what you can do on the back end with webinars with very small numbers of people, you can put up large numbers of revenue.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

Okay. So before we move on to the plan, the plans of the juggernaut. One of the juggernauts, I want to talk about the differences, if there's any really, between live and virtual one-to-many selling.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

And a good way to talk about that would be to talk about one of the pitches you did for Ezra Firestone. So, like, what's the backstory with that? And, you know, how did it go?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

So Shopify at the time was this new little concept. It was coming onto the market, it was public, but nobody was really using it yet. I think they had 180,000 users total in the account, and it was hemorrhaging money. Uh, but Shopify was really the most powerful e-com platform at the time, and Ezra was pumping like $75,000 a day through it with his Cindy Joseph boom makeup. Uh now we controlled the Amazon market, and he comes to us and says, Hey, listen, I have the first ever Shopify approved course in theme that we can sell. Right. Do you want to be the exclusive marketing partners on it? I said, say less, friend, right? So uh I also knew Amazon sellers needed to diversify. They couldn't just stay on Amazon and we had that audience captively uh that we could serve, that we could test the market out on. So we were doing a live event. So part of what we sold in ASM as a bonus was you get to come to a live three-day event in person in Las Vegas. So this is a bonus. What people don't get is you can make your free bonuses for your offer stack monetizable on the back end. And this was one of many where we literally made money off our bonuses. So they come to this live event, and my favorite pitch to this day from the stage that I've ever done. I have Ezra go up on stage and he starts to talk about all the split tests that they've run from this Shopify theme that they've created specifically for his brand and how you can use these best practices when you should set up your own e-commerce site. So here's the color split test, here's the formatting split test, here's the things that the heat map results, all that kind of stuff. Really geeky stuff, but super useful. And then he gets to the pitch. And this was all choreographed in advance, but to this day, people think that this happened spontaneously. Like he goes, All right, I'm about now. He's like, I'm ready to show you how you can invest in this theme. I got this really cool offer. I want to spend a few minutes talking about it. And as he starts to say that, I knife in from the back and I run up on stage and I look upset. I look pissed off. And I go, Ezra, what are you doing? And he's like, uh, what do you mean? I'm like, are you selling at my event? And he's like, Well, yeah, they told me that I could sell at the event. And I say, no, no, no, no, no, my friend. And I'm looking at him like I'm looking at you. I say, you don't get to sell at my event. And then I turn to the audience and say, I get to sell at my event. And the audience starts clapping, right? And this is something nobody really gets, Cole. If you frame it properly, people are excited to be sold to. Right. Like you can literally make people get super pumped up, like, yeah, yeah, pitch me, pitch me, pitch me, pitch me. You just got to set up the conditions properly. And so they're like, okay, let's hear the pitch, Jason. And this is what I did, and this is what you can do in a room that you can't do on a webinar or anywhere else for that matter. Which is a good lesson that you look at a media, you should say, what are all the lever points of that media? What can I do in this media I can't do in any other media? So you could take fundamentals and normal selling principles, and then you could add to them. So in a room, here's an example. I'll give it to you. I say to people, I say, stand up right now. If you've known you needed an e-commerce sites for six months, but still haven't launched one yet. So we get people to stand up. So this is social proof, three-dimensional. You could look around and see everybody standing up. So you're not alone, right? You could never do that on a webinar. I wish you could somehow do that on a webinar, but you can't. Also, what we've done here very subtly is it's easier to go to the back of the room and buy a product when you're standing on your feet than when you're sitting in a chair. Right. The thing about the law of inertia, this is a physical principle of the universe, is an object at rest stays at rest. That first step in anything is the hardest step. Getting to the gym is really hard. But once you're there, you tend to just get into the workout, right? But putting on the damn shoes to go to the gym, that's the difficult part. So we remove that little extra sticking point to get them from inert to in motion. So they stand up. And then I take it a step further. I say, stay standing if it's been a year or more since you've known that you need an e-commerce site, but haven't launched one yet. If not, sit down. So some people sit down, but others stay standing, okay? And then this is what I close with. I say, I don't know about the rest of you, but those of you standing right now, you need to go to the back of the room immediately and sign up because I guarantee you that this will be the best money you spent. And they go to the back of the room and they start signing up. So direct commands and telling people exactly what to do in those scenarios and making it easier for them to go to the back of the room and sign up and using a time close. And this is the easiest thing of all to sell. Because basically, I'm selling you are losing so much money, you have lost money forever, and if you don't change that now, you're never going to change that. And so I got the first wave of buyers. So in a room, you typically close in waves. This has been my experience. Not everybody goes at once.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

And so for the first wave, one of the things I want to point out that you did, they weren't technically losing money, but you framed it as if they were losing money. Yeah. Which is because, and you know, there's a bajillion studies, right? But the loss is twice as painful as the equivalent gain. Yeah, loss aversion. But you literally, I mean, technically they're going to start a Shopify store and make money. Yeah. Their business is going to go from here to here, right? But it's the framing of not being there is losing it, which you could really do with almost everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

You should put people in pain. Well, you should make them aware of the pain that they don't want to admit to, and then you give them a way out of that pain. That's the strongest sales frame of all. Like this is never going to get solved unless you do something now. You're going to continue to piss money away, you're going to continue to make an excuse. And most people, when they think of something painful, what they do is immediately repress it. They don't want to think about it. They want to bury it, which is why, again, when I'm closing. Closing, opening, communicating, selling on a webinar, I'm constantly reminding them of the pain. The frame is like, listen, it's painful now, but I think I can help you get out of it. But we always make them aware of the cost of staying the same, which is the worst cost of all, right? So I made them aware of this. I basically said, and this is such a good frame where I was like, I don't know about the rest of you, but you, I know I can make you money. Like this is risk, so de-risking, right? So they go to the background and buy. And I go, now to the rest of you, let's have a conversation. Okay? We got to determine if you should buy this or not. And I use this frame everywhere. When I do all the QA's on webinars, whenever I'm selling, it's like, we have to make sure you're the right person to buy this. Because if you are, it's gonna cost you more money not to buy it. And if you're the wrong person, I don't want you to buy it. But we have to have a discussion to determine if you should buy this or not. So I'm in control. I gotta help you make the decision that's good for you. And the problem is you never make fucking decisions in your life. You sit there in the middle, maybe, maybe, maybe. And so my goal is to get you to a yes or to a no. And so I say to the audience, I say to them, I've got to figure this out. So I have, I go, give me a flip chart. So somebody runs up with the flip chart, they flip it out, and I said, What would stop you from buying this? And somebody says, money. So I write money on the top on the flip chart. And then some guy a few rows deep says, Jason, I've already given you all my money. This is what he says. Like, not planned, just from the peanut gallery, and everybody laughs. I don't laugh. I look at him and I go, that's not true. I go, you paid for the plane ticket to be here. You paid for the hotel room. And then I walk to the whiteboard and I say, So don't tell me it's about the money, and I cross it off, right? Like I could never have choreographed this. It was perfect. Yeah. But this is why you got to be a pro in this business. You got to be so well trained, you got to be so prepared. So when those gifts offer themselves to you, you can get the most out of them. That demonstration of showing that I was so confident that this product was for them, that's how I demonstrated that. And I go, what's the real problem? And then people said time. And then I wrote time on the board. And then I said, let's have a discussion about time. And then we close on time. The next wave of people go back. Well, how did you close on time? I mean, there's so many ways that you can close on time. Uh I don't remember the specific way that we closed on time there, but essentially it was like, okay, listen, are you gonna build this on your own? No. You're gonna have to go out and find something to be built for you. Are you gonna find anything as good as what you saw here today? No. Is it gonna be as clickable and as quick as it is today? No. This is the only one of its kind. It's a Shopify-approved program, et cetera, et cetera. And so it can't be time because this is the fastest way humanly possible you could do it. And they'd already seen that in action, so then you can cross off time. I don't even remember what clothes we used then, but I could have used any number of time closes. At that point, it really didn't matter. What needs to be done in those situations more than anything, Cole, it's an academic kind of situation. You just gotta give people enough time to sit with the the decision so they can make it on their own. If you are trying to force them to make the decision, it feels uncomfortable. But if they're sitting there listening, they're gonna convince themselves more than you can.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:25

Yeah, you know what's so interesting about that? How I tell my sales team to anchor the sales call in terms of how they think the sales call is going to go, is most amateur salespeople what happens is they drop the investment, and then their expectation is to get a decision right after they drop the investment, which is at the end. Yeah. Right? And so then what happens is if that's their expectation and it doesn't go that way, what happens? You can even see it in their energy. It goes up, they start to get frustrated, they get a little flustered, they get mad. A lot of times they get mad at the prospect, which you can't really influence somebody if you're angry at them. No. So I tell them you need to anchor your expectation that yes, they're gonna move forward after about 20 to 25 minutes of you going through all the objections, all of that stuff. But it's it's anchoring your expectation that yes, they're going to move forward, but it's not the investment. It's 25 minutes after the investment. So you're anticipating all of those objections. And you almost it's like, give me the objection. You want it and you're also prepared for it. And what's weird, I don't know if this is energetic or whatever, whatever it is. When you take that stance, you end up getting less of what? The objections. Less, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

Yeah, I never expect anybody to say yes the first time I ask them to, right? I'm delightfully surprised when they do. It's unexpected to me. I expect that we have to sit down and really figure this out. Because for most people, here's what I know psychologically: committing to a bigger future, which is what an investment is, is scary. It's hard. It's a new set of responsibilities. And so I don't expect them to very easily bring that on. I don't expect them to immediately say, okay, that all makes sense. Let's go, baby. I know it's gonna be a big decision. I know that it's tough. And so I just expect us to have to get down and figure it out. And legitimately, it's not shtick cole. I literally am just trying to help them make the decision that's best for them. I really, literally am. That's not just saying that or it's not lip service. I gotta figure out if it makes sense for them or not. Now I know if our targeting is correct, it is unlikely that it won't make sense to them. But I just gotta figure it out. I gotta understand their model of reality. If we want to get super geeky on this shit, I gotta elicit their model of reality of how they make decisions, and then we gotta put this through that process, and then I'll know whether or not it makes sense for them to make that decision.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:48

Well, for people listening, what does that mean? Elicit their model of reality.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

Yeah, so you gotta figure out how do they know when something is a good decision and when something isn't a good decision. Their criteria. Their criteria. Uh, and most of this is subconscious, so you gotta sit down with them, you know. So I'll give you an example. Uh I sold from the stage two months ago. So when I sell for clients and I go in person, it's $50,000 for the day. So client pays me, I had to come in the night before, speak and pitch that day and fly out that day. So he pays me $100,000. Uh, well worth it, I might add. So I get in there, I write a whole presentation for scratch. It took me like 50 hours to write this damn presentation. So when people hear numbers of $100,000, like it doesn't just fall out of the sky. Like we work our ass off for this. Everything is considered. I have uh 90 minutes to sell an audience cold on a $10,000 product from the stage. Uh and I did and I did. I did really well in the room. And then I'm outside of the room and I have no percentages for the clients. It's a flat fee. So there's no, I don't make extra if I close any more people, but I'm a salesperson, right? It's in my nature. I might be able to sell. And it's so funny because my wife was standing there with me. This lady comes up and she says, Oh my God, this is such a cool product. I'm thinking about buying. I'll think about maybe buying it later. Uh, and I'm like, okay, cool. Why would you buy it later as opposed to now? And she says, Well, I don't know. I got this other program, I got this other thing, I got this other thing. Okay, I say, okay, wouldn't this help those other things that you told me that you have? Isn't this synergistic to those things or not? Help me understand this. And she goes, Yeah, I don't know. Okay, I'll see you later. And she starts to walk away. She goes, I'm gonna think about it though. And as she's walking away, it is so funny because my wife saw this. I said, How long? And she stops dead in her tracks and she looks at me. How long are you gonna think it over for? That was what I asked her. Because she kept saying, I'm gonna think it over. How long? Just two words. And then she comes back to me, and it's so funny, and she's like, hunches over, comes back to you. She's like, I don't have the money. Here's my financial situation. And she bears her soul to me and she tells me really she couldn't buy. Like she was not in a financial situation where she could, so you don't sell to that person, obviously. But it was so funny how that question, how long, when she says, I need to think about it, how long broke her whole pattern because the decision-making criteria of thinking about it wasn't relevant. Now, in a lot of cases, it is. So, with a lot of clients, uh, I'll say to them, what they say, I need to think about it, how will you know when you've thought about it properly in order to make a decision? That's one of the ways you can ask them that question. And then you run through the process. And oftentimes with clients, they'll say, Well, um, once I know I'm successful with it, then I'll do it. They'll say stupid shit like that, which makes no sense, but this is how they make decisions. And then I'll say to them, I'll like, okay, well, how would you be successful without first buying the program? How is it possible to get success first without doing the thing? And they'll be like, uh, oh yeah, that's not possible. Are you open to an alternative way to consider this? Yes, I am. And then you start to work through the process, and everybody has a different decision-making criteria. And so the fun thing is, is unraveling how they make choices and then lining this up to see if it makes sense within their situation or not. I like one to many because I can do this with a thousand people at once. And why person A is going through their process and giving me information, I'm working on person B, and while they're doing that, I'm working on person C, and then I'm coming back to person A. Person D is listening to me talk through A, B, and C, and they're trying it on in their own life. And then it doesn't have to be one thing, although sometimes it is for each person. It could be a little bit of thing A, a little bit of thing B, and a little bit of thing C. So I like doing it at scale, but it doesn't matter where whether it's one to one, one to few, or one to many. What we're doing is we're figuring out how people make decisions. And everybody has a process and how they make decisions, and it's so fun how different they all are. Like in Iman's, it was like, how do I get my parents to pay for the investment? So we had to walk through that process, yeah. And how did you do it? Uh, multiple ways. So what's fun is like people think I have this objection. If I answer it in this one way, then that's good. But the reality is you should give people multiple ways in which they can consider solving that problem. And so one way is, you know, I said to the audience, I say, uh, well, listen, you got to ask yourself, if you're coming to your parents, what do they really want for you? What do your parents really want from you as a child? Do they want you to be successful? Do they want you to show initiative? Do they want you to take on responsibility? Do they want you to make decisions that will help you grow into an adult who can contribute to society? What would make them proud of you? And so I get them in their minds. I said, so when you approach them and you have a conversation with them, these are the things that you have to bring up. So when they say, yes, I would love for you to invest in things to make you better, and yes, I would love to see you go out there and take initiative in your life and show responsibility, then you bring up the fact of why you would like it to be this thing. So I'm giving them the conversation to have with their parents. And that's one of the ways that I do it. Now I prep I preface all this stuff, right? Which is great, because salesmen have bad reputations, deservedly so, by the way, right? Most sales, most sales guys are just coke fiends who are trying to make a commission to get their next high, right? So I, you know, I preface it as follows. First of all, I'm like, this is not something you should be investing in at your age as a must-have. If it makes sense, do it. And I would never want you to trick your parents, buy this thing, and then get nothing out of it, right? So it's like you have to make sure that you are going to commit to this and follow this through before you would even consider having that conversation with your parents. Because I'm not trying to like, I don't, I don't want to be looked at as the guy who will take a 14-year-old kid's money just to put it in my pocket, right? It's still, does this deserve, does this decision serve you or not? But then I would give them alternative ways in which they could also have a conversation with their parents. And this is a future pacing technique that most salespeople don't know. I have to brace them for potential disappointment too. So I said, it is very possible that your parents can love you, want what's best for you, but not show it in a way that you wish. You could say everything right to your parents, you could have all the best intentions in the world, and they could still say no to you. And you have to prepare for that and you have to accept that as part of your life. And what you should do is have the motivation that when you get older, you don't have to rely on other people to make decisions for you. You can empower yourself to make the decision. And that's one of the reasons that I'm here with you today. So this is closing while also serving the audience independent of whether they buy or not.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:33

Yeah, and one thing you do really well is I kind of call it the pendulum swing with my salespeople, but if I had to kind of state it, it's claiming indifference, or it's sorry, stating indifference and then claiming moral authority. Yeah. Right? Which is basically like we might not even be able to come to an agreement today, but regardless, like I need to help you figure out what is that decision and which is best for you. Yeah, that's a hundred percent. You do that a lot. I just wanted to point that out because you've probably done that like five times, yeah, maybe six times since we've been talking. Yeah. You know, and so that puts you in a position again where you can pressure harder, yeah, but also it's not like you've already given them the out, so to speak. You've kind of released the pressure valve.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:13

You have to future pace disappointment. Even when I saw the product, I said, listen, you're gonna sign up for this today, you're gonna be so excited, you're gonna think you can walk through walls, and then you're gonna wake up tomorrow, reality's gonna sit in, right? It's gonna be difficult.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:24

It's like tying down the sale in one-to-one selling.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:26

Yeah, we want it to stick in one-to-one. That's probably where I learned it from, is you can't, it's not just enough to close the sale. If it doesn't stick, that's even worse. You wasted your time and you've still got no commission. Uh, but I always look at it as I want a future pace because the best thing I can do to close on a product is to have successful people tell their friends. And so I want them to win with the product that I'm selling them. So if I don't discipline their disappointment, they'll get in the product and then they'll quit. Because, man, we're selling euphoria really when we're pitching. We're talking about the best and we're really building it up, but we also have to embrace them with, you know, getting punched in the face, which inevitably will happen. So it's like you're gonna go in and there's gonna be days that it's gonna be difficult, and you're gonna try things and they're not going to work. And this is how we're gonna help you in those situations. And this is the trend, this is really what a winner does. A winner doesn't not have difficulties, a winner handles difficulties with grace. And they're like, damn, this is useful, even if I was just watching this as a reel on Instagram, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's more authoritative than mostly how I've been sold, which nobody tells me how it's going to be difficult after I buy. They pretend it's all unicorns and rainbows, and it actually increases them being successful, and it gets more credibility to make this sale. And it comes across as, again, indifferent. Like, I don't need you to buy this. Like, I'm not desperate for you to purchase this thing. I am a consultant who's helping you navigate a very difficult decision in your life, and I don't want you to be stuck with not making a decision because that doesn't serve you. I just have to figure out what decision makes the most sense for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

If you're enjoying this conversation and you want to be in a room of people who are just like the people I have on this podcast, so you can ultimately network with the highest level people in the industry and up-level your business, you should fly out to meet us in Scotland at the end of July. So this is a one-time opportunity where you can get a ticket to actually be able to come if you qualify to network and get content and ultimately work with me and my team and so many other high-level speakers in the industry in Scotland at the end of July. So you have to be doing at least $100,000 a month in your business to qualify. If not, don't bother with it. But if that's you and you're trying to scale to 10 million or even 20 million or 100 million a year, there's other people in the room who have done that. And the speakers I'm gonna have in Scotland have done that too. So check out the link in the description and see if you qualify. And if you do, book a call with my team. We'll talk about the ticket price to be able to come. This is the only time you're gonna be able to do this, so take advantage of it. Now, back to the podcast. And the other thing you're doing too is you're being honest because what do most salespeople do? They overpromise, overpromise, overpromise. You're telling them it's gonna be hard, right? But what a what a winners actually do? You did that labeling of the identity there. Yeah, before we move on, I see it at the end of the call, tying down the sale. A lot of salespeople miss that out. The other thing, in in terms of future-pacing disappointment, is when people have to go talk to their spouse. Yeah, and this is like a genuine thing that's super interesting. True. They're like, Oh yeah, my spouse is gonna totally love it. And they don't realize, like, you know, if you ask them a question, well, how are you going to approach your spouse? Yeah, they don't even like they just fall apart. They haven't even thought it through. Because then what ends up happening is that night or the next day, they're like, Okay, well, how do I exactly tell somebody I met somebody random off the internet and they kind of gave me this pitch, I can't even really explain the pitch because it's solving a problem that I don't understand in my business. Right. And now I'm trying to convince them to, you know, let me spend 15 grand on something I just found out yesterday. Off the internet. Off the internet with this random guy. And so the thing is you have to coach them in terms of how to actually approach and have that conversation. What you do through that language. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:12

So I never encountered the parents' clothes before. That was a new one for me. And it's so much easier when you're in state, by the way. Like we're on a podcast right now, but if if there's like the actual pitches happening in the moment and you're in your zone and you're in flow, like I just channel the answer at that point because I know so much technique unconsciously that you can just find the right words. But you know, the spouse close to me is really interesting because in one to many selling, it's actually relatively easy. Generally, we'll have a period of time before the cart closes and the webinar presentation. And so a large part of what we can do is have them bring the spouse on and watch the webinar replay alongside of the person that's doing it. So that's one of the closes that we often use there. You know, Cole, like I have a mixed feelings about the whole thing of like, well, does your spouse trust you to make good decisions, right? When your spouse really like it, if you could show, you know, initiative and all the I don't even know the closes because I never use them.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

The standard closes like that. I feel a little uncomfortable with that because that's just kind of like it feels like you're plowing through. I get that it's a function oftentimes in a one-to-one selling situation. Uh, but my my whole thing is like, let's bring on the spouse. We'll have a conversation with both of you. Like we guys should make decisions jointly if it makes sense. Um, but also at the same time, a lot of times it's a smoke screen, too. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:30

That's what I was about to say. I don't actually do a lot of those techniques, but what I do is just and I take my time with it. You gotta slow it down. I take my time with it, I just start asking a lot of questions to figure out like, is this something to where they do have a shared bank account? There's probably 25 grand in the bank account, and we're talking about a $10,000 investment. Obviously, that is something that they're gonna have to collaborate with their spouse on.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:53

Sometimes it's just something they say. They don't even know it's it's weird, they just don't even know why they said it. They just kind of like blurted it out there, and they don't have a shared bank account. Like, you know, there was there was one we were reviewing this past week. No shared bank account, they're not even married, they're actually engaged. Yeah, right. And so these things are totally separate. And so there's a way where it's like, well, look, you know, why don't you just draw the line in the sand and say, look, you know, the last six months isn't going to be the next six months, and metaphorically draw the line in the sand, step across it, and say that tomorrow is gonna be different from today. Yeah. And then worst case, you know, if in a week your husband's about to, you know, break off the marriage and not even get married to you, we'll just give you a refund. It's not even a problem. Totally. But what I really want you to do is have your husband hop on the onboarding call with us so that they can see everything you're getting. Because, as I learned from you, you know, are you gonna make a better decision seeing everything from the inside? Yeah. Or just me telling you from the outside. Yeah. So, and I'm so confident in what we do, I'm willing to expend resources and labor onboarding you because I know you're gonna love it anyways.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:00

100%. See, we don't typically sell to super high price points, Cole. So we don't really run into the spouse objection too much. We're selling like thousand to three thousand dollar products in mass. But that's a great close where it's like bring your spouse in. If you both don't love it, by the time we're done, we'll make you whole. Like, I'm not here to sell you today. This is step one of our relationship together, right? I'm here to serve you for the longevity of our relationship. And so you you giving me money today isn't the end of it, it's the beginning of it. So bring your spouse in, get the lay of the land. If you hate it by the time we're done, I don't want you as a customer, I'll give you your money back.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:36

And what's funny is I even future pace what they're probably going to feel so that they have the right decision-making criteria of hating it. So I don't say if you decide it's not for you. Yeah. You know, I'm like, you know, and look, after you have your onboarding call, if you get off that call and you have this pit in your stomach. You have this pit in your stomach, and every bone in your body is telling you you made the wrong decision, and you know what? You somehow got in bed with a bunch of scammers from Mexico. Yep. Then obviously we would just give your money back. Do you see how I'm making it so extreme? And that's what we always do. Right. It's not like and and you know, even flip it back. So it's like, and this isn't just that after your onboarding call, now you see, hey, we're gonna climb up this mountain together, and it's gonna be a little bit difficult because you're going to feel that way. Yep. And so it's kind of you have to frame these things. And what's so disappointing about a lot of sales, I'm like frustrated about thinking about my team sometimes with this, is that you just made the sale, you know, and you just gotta, it's like that extra three percent effort. It's all it takes to really lock it in.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:44

Lock it in. Yeah. And you do the same thing I do. Oh, it's just exaggerating the negative. Because then the impulse of the cons customers to say, Well, it can't be that bad.

unknown 1:27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:53

And now they're convincing you, oh, it's not gonna be that bad. Okay, good, whatever you say. But hey, listen, if it was the worst train wreck you've ever experienced. In your life, right? Yeah. I'm just preparing you that that might be possible. Like you never know. And then they're like, I can't be that bad. Yeah. So they're now convincing themselves that it's a good decision versus you convincing them that it's a good decision. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:12

So tell me about the plan, the wiggle-wiggle. Yeah. Tell me about all of that. So, how did that come about and just overall what it was? What was the strategies? Everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:22

Yeah. So I get uh my business partner says, Hey, listen, you're gonna take a meeting. I'm not gonna tell you what it is, it's gonna be a favor to me. Uh I'm gonna put it on your calendar, and you're just gonna show up and just listen, and then we can make a decision afterwards. And I'm like, okay, I will. Uh so we get on a meeting with a guy named Dan Hollings. Now we go back with Dan to 2010. We published a product that he did on mobile marketing back then when the web was going mobile and it was this new thing, and we did really well. And we did some stuff with Dan also in the Amazon space on the back end of ASM. We did some stuff with Dan, and that went really well. So, like every five years, Dan comes to us with some new idea because he's like this mad scientist in the lab, genius level. And this time he comes to us. So we get on this call and it's about crypto. I hate crypto. This is why I had to be tricked to get on the call, because if I would have been like, oh, he's got this crypto thing, I'd have been like, canceled. I don't want anything to do with crypto. I think crypto is stupid. Um so but we get on this call, and Dan shows us what he's doing in the crypto space, which I immediately loved for three reasons. Reason number one is it was different. I like selling things that are different, not better than, but similar to other stuff that exists. Uh the second thing is he turned the disadvantage into the advantage, which was crypto was considered extremely volatile back then. That was the number one thing the market said, it's volatile. I don't want to play in it, it's too volatile. I'm scary, it's volatile. So we're like, volatility is actually what makes this work. So that's the second reason I liked it. Third reason was is the risk factor that we talked about. The whole thing about this was making very small amounts of money repetitively, and you could set up these bots as he ran them, and they would wiggle up and down based on the volatility, and you would trade and you would take gains all the way up and down. Like three cents at a time, five cents at a time, nine cents at a time, but some of these bots could wiggle off 10, 15, 20, 30 a day. Now, Cole, this sounds insane, but this is how it works. If somebody pays you like $3,500 and they make $10 tomorrow, they are over the moon because 99.9% of instances when they buy a program online, they never see any money. Ever. And so just to validate that it's real with an actual win the very day after you spend money on the program, I knew was such a powerful advantage for selling this offer. Now, I always look at everything of what's the excuse that would stop somebody from buying this program, whatever I'm launching. And we try to eliminate the constraints before we do anything else. And the big constraint here was Dan had done it and it worked for him. Dan had six friends that he showed how to do it and it worked for them. But the problem was they're his friends, and they were all successful people already, like in business. So they were business people who were successful who were his friends, and none of them paid him any money. It was free. So the price anchor is free. That's not good. Second thing is they're his friends, so they could say anything he tells them to say. Like obviously, he's not lying. We don't mislead, but the consumer's gonna think, well, your friends are gonna lie. Because a lot of douchebag gurus do that. Their friend comes in and says whatever they want them, and then there's your testimonials. Yep. Super deceptive, right? So I said we have to make it definitive to the audience that people like them who are strangers, who don't know you, who may or may not be business people, who may or may not have any experience in this, who may or may not have a lot of money, can make this work. And so we've launched a beta test. And I've done this for so many clients, and this is what really prints the money because at the end of the day, the number one thing that will sell more than anything else is if you can say, here is every customer's result, not just the good ones, or not just a few of them that are cherry-picked, literally all of them. Here's the ones that did good, here's the ones that did okay, and here's the ones that shit the bet, right? I'll just show you them all, and then you can decide. And that's what we did. So we went out to our audience and we said, hey, listen, we got this thing, we don't know if it's gonna work or not, which is my favorite pitch of all time. I got this idea, I don't know if it'll work. I'm looking for people to try it out on. I only want you in if you can give me this amount of money and be okay if you lost every penny of it. So this is the frame that we set. So I'm like, I got this thing, it's worked for me because Dan showed me how to do it. So I did it and it worked. And it worked for Dan, it worked for everybody we tried it to, but I don't know if it'll work for strangers. So we had 18 people pay us $10,000 apiece to get one-on-one coaching from Dan to help them set it up. And we made them agree that we could share their results of all their open active trades whenever we wanted to whoever we wanted, and we made them do it in a third-party software so there could be no funny business. Because I'm thinking five moves ahead. When I get on a webinar, I don't want anybody to say, oh, well, it's a spreadsheet. You can put any numbers in there, or oh, it's a screenshot. So you could change a screenshot. These were real live portfolios that if I pulled them up on a webinar, you could literally see in real time as money was being made and money was being lost. And then I had all 18 of them. So when we get on this webinar, we literally showed the whole data set. So we have two really powerful things going for us. One is more proof than you could ever imagine from everybody in real time, undeniable, easy to demonstrate. The second thing is all these people paid us $10,000. So when we sold the program initially, we sold it for $2,500. So price anchor is these people over here who are successful paid $10,000. You pay one-fourth of that for a better product because Dan taught them one-on-one manually. Then we took that and we put it into a course. And so it's not the same thing, but it's similar. And when we did the course launch, we launched that in beta. Because we're like, we don't know exactly how much we need to teach you. We don't even know in what order we should teach it in. We don't even know the best way to teach it. So we might have to do sessions over again more than once. But if you want to be part of our pilot group program, our group coaching program, you can get in for $2,500 instead of $3,500, which is what we're gonna price this when we go public and we get out of beta. So we went from the $10,000 launch, we saw all of those results, we rolled that out two weeks later into our first beta group at $2,500, and then we immediately pulled in millions in sales. We we took them through the program for a month, we launched again in a month, and we did a beta two of the group, and we made it better than beta one, because in real time we're fixing the product, we're making it better, we're making it better, we're optimizing it. We launch it again, that does really good. We launch it a third time in beta, that does really good. We're up to 20 million in sales already within uh the span of two months from scratch. And then we do the big launch, where then we have everything laid out now, we have all of the course locked in, we have the bonuses, we have the pitch perfected, and then we did that launch. And between the betas and that big launch, we did $57.9 million in 226 days from that first meeting that I got tricked into until cart close.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:32

And so you systematically stacked a ton of proof throughout that process, right? Would you say the offer is the most important and proof is number two?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:41

Yeah, and I mean they're hand in hand, right? Like you can't separate the two from each other, in my opinion, because part of the offer is something so valuable that it gets better results than anything else on the market. That makes sense. Now you make sense. Some people have proof. I had a client once that uh I was writing webinars for, and she had a testimonial from Tony Blair, the the prime minister of UK. At the time he had just finished being the prime minister, and it was never used in her webinar. Oh my god. So I'm like, all right, here's my genius idea of why you pay me so much, big buddy. We're going to use this testimonial. And she's like, oh, we should use that? I'm like, yeah, we should use that. So valuable proof that is not deployed is worthless. So you have to think of here's my offer, and here's my proof, and here's the best way to demonstrate and show and deliver the proof. And this is why we're a big fan of beta tests. Let's launch an idea, see if we can get the proof for it, and then if we can, we have the perfect ingredients to do a real big launch.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:38

So, and then one thing that you did really well with that launch is obviously a bot and how it works and how it's unique, different, superior than whatever other bot or whatever the other options they have with crypto probably could be a little bit complex. Yeah. And so you condense that all the way down to it wiggles. Yeah. Right. And I call that kitchen, what kitchen table logic, right? You'd condense it down to something simple that you could tell them here's the reason why it works over mom and pop's kitchen table. Yeah. So how do you think about that process and how did that actually happen?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:13

Yeah, it and so Dan came up with the wiggle, which I like. Dan always has these really cool names. Uh, what we used on the webinar that really made the big difference, and we saw this early on. This is why I like doing webinars, especially at the beginning and testing the idea, because we usually get it wrong. And then the audience shows us that they don't understand what we're talking about because we're too, we're too close to it, we're too expert in it. We don't know how to speak the parlance of the regular person. Right. And we say, Oh, we're missing them here. Well, that's okay. We got a webinar tomorrow. We'll fix it, and then we'll be good. Uh, and so we recognize that people couldn't understand in their mind. Here's what they thought. If I buy a coin at 20 and it goes to 10, they feel like they've just lost 50% of their money. They haven't. You only lose when you sell. But they just couldn't get out of this idea of how could the coin go down, but yet I make money, because we had a situation where coins could go down and make money, and not with short selling or all this complicated stuff. So we came up with this metaphor, and the metaphor is the soul of pitching, in my opinion, to really connect it to a market. We said, I want you to imagine a scenario where you could buy a piece of real estate, okay? So you go down, you buy this prime piece of real estate, it's $10,000, and you feel really good about the purchase, but the next day the bank calls you up and says, hey, we appraised it, it's actually only worth $5,000. I'm like, how much money did you lose? And everybody's like, $5,000. I go, no, you didn't lose anything, right? Because you haven't sold it yet. And you don't care what it appraises at because you have the tenant. You have the best tenant to ever exist. He's a tenant that pays you rent, and he doesn't pay you rent once a month, he pays you rent every single day. Now he'll sometimes pay you five dollars a day, sometimes he'll pay you ten dollars a day, sometimes he'll pay you fifteen dollars a day, but he pays you something every single day, and he never calls you about the roof leaking, and he never bothers you, and he never has to give you any of the headache that a normal landlord would give. Now, here's the thing about real estate: what does it tend to do over time? It tends to go up. So if it appraises at $5,000 a day, in two years from now it sells at $50,000, and you want to lock that in and take the money off the table, you got in at $10, you got out at $50, you made a lot of money. But in the meantime, you made cash flow. So while you're building potential equity, which may or may not realize, you are putting real money in your pocket every single day, and you can have as many tenants as you want, and you can buy as many pieces of real estate as you want. And they got that. So it took us a couple webinars to lock that in and dial it in, but then it made sense. They're like, oh, this isn't me buying crypto, this is cash flow with the potential one day to liquidate my position and actually make a lump sum investment. And that was all it took. Once they saw that, once they saw the proof, and then we call it the wiggle because they could see it go up and down, then they got that. Of course, we took 20 minutes to explain the specifics, but you do that more to legitimize it, not because people truly understand it, but because it feels more believable when you explain. You're basically saying, here's the light switch, I flip it on, see the light, I flip it off, light goes away. Okay, now here's how electricity works. Nobody really cares how electricity works, but then they believe that the light switch will work because there is you are so knowledgeable about electricity, but they just want the light switch, which by the way is another metaphor for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:36

Oh, I know. Well, speaking of metaphors, so you use that metaphor to create the belief that that one of the beliefs at least that they need to believe to be true. Yep. To buy, right? To really get it. Do you have, I mean, is it intuitive how you create metaphors when you're kind of coming up with this stuff? Unfortunately. Is it like a process of working through different live webinars with the audience, and then you're kind of like iterating and getting it?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:59

So, you know, I've had thousands of hours of practice at this point, but my business partner and I, we would sit there and we would spend hours on an offer just auditioning potential metaphors and then finding the weak points in those metaphors. Well, this one won't work because this would be what the prospect might think. Well, what if we tried it this way? What if we adjusted this? So after a while, it does become intuitive. But one of the things I do for my clients when I consult with them is very often we sit there and we'll spend 30, 40 minutes just going back and forth to find that metaphor that has no weaknesses in it or no think that somebody would say, Well, what about this? Because no metaphor is logical, by the way. It's just a way for people to understand something, but they will step into that metaphor. This is why we had to add on, hey, you have this tenant, and originally it was just a tenant, and somebody says, Well, I have a tenant in real estate, and he calls me up at three in the morning and it's a pain in the ass. So we add it in the language. This is a special tenant, right? And then they're like, Well, my tenant pays me by the month. Okay, well, this tenant pays you by the day. So, but the overarching metaphor worked, and then we fine-tuned it and we made it stronger. But man, this is missing in most people's pitches, is they don't have a good metaphor.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:09

I bet. And I bet outside, I I would take a wager, you tell me if I'm right. Outside of the closing work you do with clients or like the very intro, yeah, when you're looking at let's say their slides or their presentation or their content, tell me if I'm wrong, but I bet probably 90% of it in the content in the middle is probably taking stuff that's intangible and making it concrete through metaphors, show versus tell. Like that's what I bet because I even know when I write stuff, whether it's a new VSL or even like I'm going through and writing a new way, we're going to pitch this thing on the phone or whatever. Oftentimes I get too intellectual. Me too. Right? And it's like too logic, and it's like I can't put my finger on nothing of this exists. Like I can't put my finger on it. And that's, you know, I don't know if you know who Travis Sego is. Yeah. He taught me the you gotta be able to write your copy in a way where you could touch your finger to it. Don't say, Do you not have any leads? Say, does your calendar look like this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:07

And that's showing versus telling. Exactly. You can see that. And that's true. So with clients on the content portion of the webinar, which by the way is the one we spend the least amount of time on, right? Generally with clients, it's like, what's the offer? How can we improve the offer? That's where we start, is is there. And then generally after that, it's like, well, how do we remove the risk? And then after that, it's well, you're saying all these things, but why should anybody believe you? Because they have no proof or they have they have proof, but it's not sufficient proof. Um once we get to the content, generally what we have to do, and in 2026, this is new. A lot of people haven't caught on to this yet, Cole. There used to be a time in business where if you showed somebody something and and they weren't sure of how to do it, you lost them. Because it was either they had to learn it there on the spot or they had no other option. Nowadays it's like, okay, just go to YouTube and figure this out.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:55

So you or AI.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:57

Or AI. So you don't have to tell them procedural stuff nearly as much as you used to. And in fact, we almost do none of that anymore. Now we show them what they need to do to find the right stuff when they go and search for it on their own. This is what good information looks like, as opposed to here is the good information. So we do more why and what and less how. But what we what we most often do in the content portion is the setup. People will go in cold to be like, let me show you how to do X, Y, and Z. Let me show you how to do one, two, and three. But they don't set the stakes up before they make the point. So they just jam it right down the throat of the person, the point that they're gonna make. Um, and we can do this with an example. Give me an example. How do you set up the stakes? Uh just give me something and I'll show you.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:43

Just an offer to sell? Uh, a point to make, even. A point to make. So like what like a point I'm making in my webinar. In your webinar. So we'll say that it's for, you know, I we used to have an offer that would teach the everyday person who's, let's say, in insurance sales, let's just say they're insurance sales or real estate sales or something like that. They're in a relational selling field that's really high, highly susceptible to interest rates.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:05

And they're really mad that the interest rates have gone up and they're probably not gonna go back down. And they're like, okay, I want to get into this new high-ticket industry. Correct. Right. And so let's say my first point that I'm making is I'm trying to make the point to establish the pain, right? That, like, hey, you're over here. Yeah, this is a dying field, or whatever I'm gonna say. Yep. And then I gotta get them into the motivation that they gotta get out of that. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:30

Yep. Yeah. So the point that I could make it, I I could say to them, I'm I want to ask you a question. If you were on a boat and it was sinking and it was taking on more and more water, what would you do? Is it better to patch that boat? Or if you saw a bigger, better boat just a little bit down the horizon that you could jump off of your boat and swim to, what do you think would be a better option, right? Well, you got to be able to swim there. It's got to be the right boat, they got to accept you and they got to take you on. But don't you think it's a better strategy than trying to fill the holes in a boat that's sinking, that's moving away from a destination that no longer exists.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:06

And then you make the point, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:07

Do you want to know what the first line of my ad was when we ran that offer? What's that? Uh, this single quote by Warren Buffett took me from a broke, struggling salesperson to making more than a neurosurgeon in a single year. And the quote is it's not how hard that you row, it's the boat. It's what boat that you're in. Yeah, and then I go into the explanation. It's so funny we found the same one. But um, and it was funny when we And that's just off the top, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:46:31

Like if we sat down and analyzed it, we could probably come up with other setups too.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:35

Yeah, that's good. So you consulted, you know, obviously a bunch of people, but Hormosy on one of his real re his recent launch where he did over a hundred million. Yep. Um, what were some of the things that maybe you helped him with? And then also I'm just curious your overall thoughts on like what do you think he did really well? Because has there been a launch that has been bigger than that kind of in our space? That's the biggest one.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:00

He broke my record, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:01

Okay, so he's he holds the record, he holds the title. So what do you think he's done so well? And then what were some of the things you helped him with?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:07

So Alex has done everything well more than anybody I've ever seen, right? So if you if you were to use a metaphor like a football team, generally if they have a really good quarterback and a really good wide receiver, then they throw a lot, but they don't have a good ground game. They're not they don't have a great running back. Or if maybe they miraculously have both the run game and the pass game solved, maybe their defense isn't great. But imagine they also had the best defense in the league. And then imagine they have the best special teams in the league too for kicking it off and returning it. No team really ever is excellent in every single area because the cost that it takes to be excellent on offense usually comes at the expense of defense, right? So I spent all my time on conversion for the most part, so I'm not the greatest at lead generation. I'm decent at it, but I'm not world class, right? And I'm not necessarily building products anymore because then that would take me away from staying on the conversion side. Uh so I I live mostly in the land of conversion. And then by the way, if you are selling products, you usually have less time to build your social media presence because you're too busy servicing clients, right? So almost everything has a trade-off. Alex is the only person I've ever seen to be excellent at so many different functions of a business simultaneously that chained together because their advertising for that launch was insanely effective. The funnel for the upsells before they even did the book launch were incredibly dialed in. And then the offer itself was masterful and how it was built up, and then the pitching of the offer was incredible, and then it's self-published and self-fulfilled. So the fulfillment was insane. And as a brand, they're incredibly they're the best at social in our space. Usually, and they do paid. You usually have to do one or the other. You can't be great, you can't be the best at paid and the best at social. And by the way, you usually have to rely on agencies to do some things, and that is a trade-off. It's better to do it in-house, but how can you do everything in-house? And so they were able to do more things that you could chain together at a level of excellence than anybody I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:18

Yeah, I mean, I would say he's just full stack, is how I would put it. Like he has all of I mean, he's very, very good. And and what's interesting too is when I look at what he does, it's nothing that is like, oh my gosh, that's so crazy complex. A lot of times. I mean, some of the stuff, I mean, it is really complex, but it's just the fundamentals done at a 10 out of 10 level across all of the fundamentals.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:40

Yeah, I've never seen anybody like it. So it's really incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:43

So when you look at the actual, let's say how the presentation was structured.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:47

Right? What do you think he did well? And and anything is maybe you helped them maybe nudge this way or the other way.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:52

Yeah. So I did consulting on the last book launch and the book launch before it. Got it. Um, so some of what we did on the second book launch. Which was a hundred million dollar leads automatically bled over into this book launch. Because one of the things that I said to him on the second book launch, it was it was short, it was like 45 minutes, the whole pitch. Uh he came to me and he was like, I'm looking at doing a webinar like this, and it was a traditional webinar. I go, You don't have to do that at all. I'm like, you need to tell a story for 30 minutes, and then you need to drop and sell after 30 minutes. It's not a normal structure of a webinar. So they adjusted that. Um, and you know, I'm a fan of selling forever, as we discussed. So on this last call, he goes, Don't worry, this time we're gonna go long, and they did go long, right? Super long, super long, which is super smart.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:36

Uh and they did that.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:37

And everybody thought that was gonna like ruin his brand or something, you know, all the Twitter people.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:42

Yeah, I don't think it mattered at all. It didn't matter at all. You can't tell. So on the second uh consult that we did for $100 million leads, I the first question I asked Alex when we started consulting was, why? Like, why do you want to cash in right now on all the brand equity that you built up? Because we consulted for hours just on an offer stack for $100 million leads, which he ultimately didn't do. His launch was my book is free, or if you want to buy a couple copies, one or three copies, I think he had an A B offer, buy it. So, like he did a big buildup to sell a $10 product at the end of the day, which is genius. And he came up with that all on his own because he came to me and we were talking about how to create offers, and so a lot of that then became what we saw on the third launch here. Right. Um, the one thing that I definitely remember us having a conversation on that I think was done really well is he came to me and he asked me questions about the VIP upsell before the live event took place. And I said to him, I go, here's ideally what you would want to strive for, if possible, but generally you can't achieve, is you want to have the price so low that you get as many buyers as you possibly can before the event takes place. Because if people can pay you money before you then do the big launch, they have an identity of a customer. I pay you money and a good thing happens. So therefore, right after that, when you ask me to pay you money again, I have a pattern. I give you money and good things happen. And so this is what I said to him because he was talking about prices. So I'm like, if you can get that price as low as possible, that's preferable because then you can get as many buyers as you possibly can. I said generally you can't do that because the ad cost, you've got to offset that. But if you don't care or if the conversions are so good, then you want to lower that price on that initial upsell.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:29

And then he liquidated so much that that was proof that the money model works. So there was in live demonstrations. Live demonstration in a sense during the presentation.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:37

Oh, yeah, and that's uh what Alex is incredibly good at is if it's a hundred million dollar launch and they do a hundred million dollars on the launch, uh super duper powerful. So they were able to like liquidate ad spend before they even went live, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:54

Now, I think from a presentation standpoint, I don't think it would have mattered too much what he did one way or the other because the offer was so incredible that you just have to check the boxes, like and the presentation. Now you could try to max the presentation out as much as possible, but the offer was so incredible because he he's done it better than any client that I've ever coached, which is the more you can associate a dollar figure to the deliverable, the more valuable it's perceived by the customers. So when Alex did X number of consults one-on-one that he charges money for, like I know you paid Alex like a quarter million dollars or something like that, right? That's a price anchor. So if he takes, I think he had $3.5 million in consulting that he trained his AI on. So now when he gives you the first of its kind, Alex AI, that he's offering exclusively, I mean, initially exclusively at this launch, the price anchor is $3.5 million. Because the only way you could have access to this knowledge before is if you paid him for consulting and he has the proof to show that this is what people paid him for. So therefore, this is what this is worth. And he did that for so many different deliverables, and this is what I teach everybody to do. You want something that is has such a high established value to it that also simultaneously nobody could buy otherwise because it gives you the best of both worlds. You can't have this, but look at how much money it's worth, and I have something that is easy for you to say, well, yeah, it is worth that much. And he did that better than anybody I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:26

Yeah. And and the brand is also obviously a superpower.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:30

But like you said, I think a lot of people will attribute it to I mean, you know, people try to generalize, delete the store, right? Things they can't understand. So a lot of people condense things, they like to wanna fy things. So it's just the brand, or it's just that, you know, Layla's such a good operator, it's just this or that, or it's the mustache, who knows? Right? But um obviously he does a lot of things well. The brand is something that I think a lot of us have felt in terms of you know, us missing out on that a little bit. Not that we need to have his big of a brand, but how much that does help, even if you're naturally more of a direct response company. And the way I like to tell this story of when I really first was like, f like I I I totally get this now. Is I have a client who you would know who it is, like top five. I mean, he's up there with Alex, top five. And I looked at his ads one day and they were so bad. I was like, these ads are the worst ads I've ever seen. Not the worst ads I've ever seen, but I was like, if I ran these ads, they would not work. Like I could tell you with a 10 out of 10 certainty, they were not gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:30

So then, like a couple months goes by, I just kind of noted that in my brain. And then I was talking to somebody on their team, I'm like, how the ads do it? And then they explain the overall like Roez cost per acquisition, all that stuff of those ads. They were like five times better than my ads. Yeah. And it's just because of that, you know, it's when they're serving an ad, it might be the 20th or 30th. That the ad's first impression might be your 20th or 30th impression.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:54

Interaction with that audience.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:56

And even if it's a cold audience pixel targeting or whatever, the pixel really finds like who is already interacting with this person's content. And so I almost think like the future is really not just organic or because it's kind of hard, depending on the platform, it's hard to really consistently sell on organic. Correct. Right? Like on especially with what I do, like a day-to-day selling. Yeah, you know, we're only gonna post like one YouTube video the week. Yeah. Right. So it's hard to get like enough volume from the day to day, but you can get a ton of impressions. And then I just want, you know, for me, I might it might not, my ad might not be the 20th thing you've seen, but if I can take it from the first to the fifth, I'm gonna get lower CPMs and an edge on that. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're also probably gonna like this podcast I also did recently that you can check out by clicking the screen right here.