Coaching Journeys: Philosophy, Self-Management & the Human Capital Crisis — Michael Baptista

Former investment banker and venture capital founder Michael Baptista joins Daniele for Coaching Journeys: Conversations from Cambridge. After the 1980s in banking, eight years in Hong Kong and Tokyo, and founding his own fintech-focused VC firm in London, Michael saw first-hand the financial and human cost of people problems — the "human capital crisis" that drew him to coaching. He's refreshingly sceptical that "leadership" is one universal thing, argues the defining challenge of our era is the management of the self and of attention rather than leadership per se, and makes the case that we're in the middle of a shift from a written to an oral culture more transformational than AI. He reads Aristotle and David Hume over the Stoics ("I have a daughter, and if someone tells me that if something happens to her I should not suffer because I should not be attached — I find that nonsense"), offers a three-part take on Jordan Peterson, and shares the coaching insight that changed him: some people find their balance in the middle, others by living at both extremes.

If you want to know more about Daniele Forni, go to www.danieleforni.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello everyone! I am Daniele Fodi. I am an executive coach. And this podcast is where coaching, mentoring, corporal life, philosophy, psychology, and a bit of chaos. All come together. In each episode we dive into the questions of the shape of the world, our leadership and the way we show up to the world. Welcome to the stage and the CO. In today's episode. Today's episode is part of the series Coaching Journeys Conversation from Cambridge, where I interview my classmates about the journey to coaching, what motivates them and the leadership advice. I am sure you do not want to miss this one. Welcome everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

This is the Coaching Journeys Conversations from Cambridge. And I have here with me Michael Batista. Hopefully, I pronounced the name correct. Please do let me know. And uh let's start with a bit of an introduction. Can you share a little bit about your background and what brought you to this program?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Sure. Well uh as you know, I'm I'm on the same program as you at Cambridge, the Advanced Executive Coaching Program. I grew up in London. I studied at Oxford. In the 80s, I became um I entered the world of investment banking, which was growing explosively, and at the time it was a period of globalization. After some years in London, I was lucky enough to be in Asia for eight years, much of it in Hong Kong, a bit of it in Tokyo. When uh China was going through India to to an extent, to a great extent, actually, but China to an even more dramatic extent was going through huge changes that we we're still seeing the effects of today. And and to have a ringside seat of that was was uh really a privilege, it was was fascinating. Came back to London, uh I left uh a large bank, I started my own business as a founder, uh, which was in something completely new, completely new area to me, venture capital, investing in in fintech companies in the UK, and that's gone well, and and now I'm in the process of moving to executive coaching. So that's uh hopefully that wasn't too long.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Well, absolutely not. What made you think that executive coaching after such a sort of like such a successful career was the right step for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:03

I mean, uh a few things I think. I'd I'd looked at it before and decided it wasn't for me. Uh I uh over many years, but particularly as an investor in these last few years, I became more and more aware that of the cost, the financial cost in terms of returns to an investor, but also the human cost of issues around human capital of people issues with senior executives, with founders in the boardrooms, startups, at scale-ups, and and in large companies, um was a huge cost and presented a real opportunity, and that there was a sort of fit. For me, executive coaching is very broad, it did it's now I I think anybody can call themselves a coach, and executive coaching seems to apply to multiple areas, but but I saw that there was well, in fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone in coaching with my background, and and so I I thought there was a fit. I had been lucky enough to be coached twice in my career by superb coaches who without wanting to descend to cliches, were transformational for me. Uh, it was something I enjoyed being coached. I'd done a couple of coaching courses and I really loved the whole interaction, and so it brought together something that I enjoyed, where I thought I could add value, very important to my personal framework, uh, and where I thought I could make a good living, which people often don't talk about, but it is a business, and uh, and I thought there was uh I thought there was a niche there.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

That is very interesting. Actually, uh yesterday with Maxwell Fahrmann and also uh with myself, I also had this experience of working with a coach, and I found the experience extremely, as you said, transformational, but really help you change your perspective, help you make, I guess, better decision for yourself. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

That need sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yes. I mean that both times I received coaching was uh were when when I was working in very large banks, and they were organized by those banks, and clearly there was an interest in in helping me to manage better, and and and I think they did, but but the coaching was transformational at a personal level, and and a few of the things that we did, said, learned in those sessions have stayed with me for for decades. Um and and I think that makes it unusual and highly valuable as an experience, I think.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

I completely agree. I have a question to ask you because as you said, you su you're you have such an interesting background, and as you said, there are no many coji with your background. From your point of view, and I want to say point of view from your lesson leading companies or advising company with your experience in banking, when you look at leaders in organizations today, what are the let's say the common issues or challenging and how can coaching maybe help fix this challenges?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

So I'm I'm a bit ske I mean, if you're an investor, especially if you're a venture capital investor, you you either have to be at the beginning or you have to become a bit of a skeptic. And so I'm I'm a little bit skeptical of the way that the coaching world, at least if you read the literature and listen to many coaches on podcasts, and it's a very large online world now, is trying to carve out for itself a role in which coaching is somehow the answer and leadership is is the problem. I'm not sure. I'm not sure that there is one answer. I mean, if you're running JP Morgan and you're running a local shop and you're running a production facility in China and you're the vice-chancellor of a university in the UK that has funding problems, those are all very different. I don't know that there's something called leadership where there's one lesson for all those people because of the times we live in. And actually, when people talk about the times we live in, so everyone will talk about AI, but they often miss, I think, some of the more some of the really transformational things happening. For example, it seems to me that we are unarguably in the middle of a huge change from a written to an oral culture. And this this is an enormous, if you look at social media, if you look at people's attention spans, if you look at the ability and the interest in reading, if you look at what persuades people, the kinds of politicians they vote for. Any analysis of, for example, US presidential speeches will show you that Abraham Lincoln was using high school and beyond language to talk to a nation where most people didn't go to high school, and we're now I think at fourth grade, maybe. And and and you know a lot of people think it's only the other party, but this this is across both parties. So that if you're if you're leading a large group of people and you're moving into an oral culture, that changes a lot about how you communicate, how you stand out. People are more tribal nowadays, but that may not change very much for you if you're running a smaller group. My my I I also think my my own focus is I think there is a kind of crisis in our age, which and it I'm not sure the answer is leadership, but it it might be something like management of the self. So we we find ourselves bombarded, don't we, by stimuli. The internet, social media, a lot of short-term dopamine it's um there is content. There is an endless stream of content. It's streaming. You see that international sports has become the slave of television. Everything is content. The internet has largely become television. The internet, which started was really a kind of nerdy thing, and people were connecting to one another and and a lot of it was reading, talking. The internet has become short-form videos. And so and so how you how you c curate how you manage your attention, how you curate that those inputs, how you manage to not be overwhelmed by the sheer volume, the constant hysteria, because everything is at at volume level ten. I mean, I think there are a lot of people who are very anxious in our world because the some of the news is alarming, but also the way it's reported, the way it's never turned off, there's no nuance anymore. How you manage your attention, what you choose to prioritize, how you remain effective. You you used a a really important word earlier, which is making decisions. You said coaching helped you make that. And and uh as well as the banking and investment banking and and and and venture capital, I I became fascinated in as an adult in philosophy, and eventually I bit the bullet and and I I did a philosophy degree and then I learned Greek, so I could do and I I think a lot of philosophy is a fan fantastic intellectual exercise, but has not really got great lessons to take away. But someone who I think I someone who I found I definitely found hugely worth engaging with and still am, and someone I I think who has something to say to us is Aristotle. And for Aristotle, the the Hello?

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Michael, apologies. I think the podcast we live recorded it, but I lost it because I couldn't think it was likely a break. Um uh sorry, apologies. I I I'll uh let me ask you a question so that we'll uh then uh link it up together. So you studied uh philosophy.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yes, I I uh I I I had always had an interest and then I studied it formally. And linking back to something you said that I think is really important decisions, decision you said your decision making got better. Aristotle thought that a good life could be a good life was distinguished by a long-term pattern of good decision making. And I think good decision making is harder and harder if you are being constantly bombarded by things that really only want to grab your attention.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

I I have a I have a probably I have a question, but it's connected to the internet and modern culture. It seems that Suicide is the it's becoming main mainstream.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Marca Marcus Aurelius, everyone uh is reading Seneca. And those are really talking about delayed uh gratification and uh focusing on loan and focusing on self-awareness. Do you think apart from stoicism, are there other past philosophies that might actually help us today in dealing with these continuous being, as you said, bombarded with dopamine sort of like reactant?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

I I well I yeah, as I as I said, I think I think Aristotle is a great place to go for balance, and and I think Aristotle's life has some lessons. You know that he had to flee Athens at one point because of the danger that that he would be executed by the mob, but uh it's uh Aristotle's range of interest, so at the time that he was working, there was really not a great, really scientific tradition, and and science, as you know, builds on itself, people stand, and I think it was Isaac Newton who said he stood on the shoulders of of giants before him. And Aristotle didn't have any shoulders to stand on, he more or less invented what would become biology. So he had a huge range of interests, and and I think one way to stay sane in this world that we're in with the dopamine hits you talked about, is to have your own interests. One of the amazing things about the internet, for those of us who are old enough to who can remember when it started, is that rather than allowing people to be more individual, it has made a lot of people more tribal and more like one another. People are not. There are, of course, people who use it to express themselves, but actually it seems largely to be used to join up. Maybe it's because I'm I'm actually I'm I'm not sure how much I believe in really delayed gratification. I'm a great believer in gratification. But um I'm a bit skeptical because the Stoics were highly suspicious of emotion. So a real Stoic would say that if if something terrible happened to a family member, then your grief was irrational, and therefore you shouldn't really indulge in it. It's not a million miles away from some, I guess, from Buddhism, which is, you know, where the idea is that attachment is the root of suffering, and therefore and I find and I'm I've I've read around and been fascinated by Buddhism for decades, but I find that belief, which is which is core to it, actually nonsense. I I have a daughter, and if someone tells me that if something happens to her, then ideally I should not suffer because I should not be attached. I find that nonsense. It makes me less human. And actually, I think strictly Stoicism and Buddhism would say that whilst it's understandable that you suffer, really, if you are an ideal Stoic or an ideal Buddhist, you need to be beyond that because you you achieve a kind of purely rational detachment. And and if I can name one other philosopher, David Hume, who has been a little bit cancelled in recent years, but Hume was in in sort of the two and a half thousand years or so of philosophy before Hume wrote, Hume was probably the first philosopher to give a major role to the emotions. And and he he even said that it's our emotions that provide that create all of our uh impulses to act, and that actually reason is is something that is is either about completely self-contained patterns like mathematics in in his view, or it's instrumental, it's about you know, an emotion tells me that I want to go to I have a desire to go to Hong Kong or I fall in love or I want to get a job as a pilot or something. That that impulse is a is contains a feeling which at some level is not questionable, it's it's not irrational, it's I want eggs, and then reason is about how you do eggs. And so I I think Hume has a lot to teach us, and as does Aristotle, about the balance between reason and emotion, and therefore good decision-making. The fashion for the stoics, I mean it's very male, it's very you have Marcus Aurelius sitting on his horse, looking as though he can, you know, get through anything, but actually, is that a great way to live? I'm skeptical.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

I'm so fascinated by this because I I don't have I studied philosophy in uh um back in high school, but uh I always always start kept on reading. Let me ask you something.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

I I know that you have a great knowledge of Asian philosophy actually which came out on the course, which was which was very and and the points you you raised on it I thought were really really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Thank you. But I have a question about somebody that probably wouldn't call about Asian, but uh Jordan Pidgerson. Yes. I just want to to know like your your your views because again connecting it to coaching often it he is um there is a certain kind of like subset, if you will, of uh the internet society of society that actually sees him as a very good coach and a very good motivator, a very person that can transform you. And I I'm just curious to know like what your thoughts are.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

I mean I think there are there are at least two Jordan Petersons. So one Jordan Peterson, I think, reached out to young men who at a time when young men were being told that masculinity is toxic as as though there were no other way to be a man, and and perhaps gave them voice and suggested that discipline and and and and self-fashioning um was a way forward and they were valuable in themselves. And that that seems fine. There's another bit of Jordan Peace, and you remember he was a Canadian academic, which is um someone who writes gibberish. I don't know if you've a lot of people talk about him. His books are unreadable. His books are unreadable.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Some of the books, some of them are more readable than others, but what did they work?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

And and so there's a lot of nonsense. And and the third Jordan Peterson, I would say, who's the more recent one, is is sad, I think. He obviously became a huge internet personality, and and and he you'll find easily now videos of him online where he refuses to argue his point and and seems almost offended if he's asked to explain or defend anything. He was he was there's a particularly famous video that went viral where I think it was a student asking questioning him and. And he's he virtually broke down and and and certainly was unwilling and actually seemed unable to explain himself. And that that I think is um so I I I think he had his time, and I think there was a group for whom he did valuable things that was being neglected. I mean, that's another thing. The mainstream culture, which has become very much about group identities, seems always to be prioritizing one group at the expense of another, rather than actually emphasizing what it is about all of us as individuals, as individuals rather than members of a group, that is valuable.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

I guess as we are um reaching towards the end of this conversation, and a couple of questions that uh hopefully they're not too personal, but is there something if you were to meet a young person, what would you advise him to do, or what kind of suggestion would do would you would you tell him or whore?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I mean I would say what I told my daughter when she was very young. I would say everybody's going to lie to you about uh sex, about money, about power. The one thing that you need to remember, the one thing that is absolute is that your time is short and is uncertain, and that you need to make the most of it. Everything else is details.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

That is uh that is very profound. I cannot help but again being uh humbled a bit at your but your own expense. Oh any any any regrets or things that you would have done differently in the past?

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yeah, I I wouldn't have wasted so much time. I mean I I I so we were immigrants in in came to London, it was very hard in the 70s. I I didn't I went to a state school, the teachers were great, I got to Oxford, and I completely wasted my time. I spent three years having fun and drinking, and I got it I got a 2-1 because I could, but you know, I I I learned nothing. And and if I if I look back the things I regret, there are things that you do that you regret. It's not true that you never regret stuff you do, but it's mainly that time, time that that which is so precious, is that I haven't done more.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

That is very interesting because now in my mind uh because you mentioned Aristotle, I can all I can I cannot not think about Diogenes. Right. He's a bit the opposite, so Yes. I if I may say like you moved from a Diogenes kind of life to the animal Aristotelian.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Yes. Well, I I've always been a bit torn between the two, to be honest. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

I guess I guess it's important to us to the balance. There is a time for everything, but as you said, it's about not feeling like the time has been wasted. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yeah, I think that's a that's an and and actually if we want to end on on a coaching note, one of the the greatest things that I got when I was being coached, because I'm I'm I mean I probably seem quite calm, but I'm I'm I think I'm I can be quite an extreme character. And and one of my coaches, it was it was a woman, and she said to me, some people find their balance by being in the middle, Michael, she said, and some people, she said, like you, find their balance by being on both ends, both extremes. And that was really helpful for me. Because, yeah, Diogenes, Aristotle, and in a lot of ways, you know, I I like really quite opposite things, and I I do them both or live them both. And I, for the first time when she said that, I thought, actually, that's okay. There is a kind of balance in in in, you know, I I loved I I I grew up during punk, punk rock. And and I loved it, and I still do, and I like Gregorian chant, and I think that's fine, it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Um that's very interesting. So, Michael, thank you very much for this conversation. It's been absolutely a pleasure, and uh looking forward to meeting you again in January.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Thank you for the invitation, it was great to talk. See you in January.