5 Levels of Leadership - EP 4 – Crisis or Collapse

Church Chat with Stuart & Dave is a father-and-son podcast exploring faith, family, church, leadership, and life through the lens of two generations. Honest conversations, real stories, plenty of laughs, and practical wisdom to help you grow in faith and navigate life's challenges with confidence and hope.

Episode 4 – Crisis or Collapse
Leadership is often tested in life's hardest moments. Can you keep leading while you're hurting? Stuart and Dave share insights on resilience, navigating crisis, and finding the strength to stand firm when everything around you is shaking.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi everyone, we're Stuart and Dave Bell, Father and Son. I'm Stuart, founder of Live Church and the Ground Level Network of Churches.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

And I'm Dave, a worship leader and songwriter, and together we're launching Church Chat, a space where we can talk openly about church, family, and life from two generations of experience.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

We've seen the good, the bad, and the damn, and it's interesting. And while we certainly don't have all the answers, we've learned a few valuable lessons along the way.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

So why not join us now for heartfelt, faith-filled conversations designed to encourage you, challenge you, and hopefully help you on your own journey. We are back. This is number four. I think this one's going to be a little bit of an emotional one. So let's just have a bit of a recap before we jump into it. So we've been looking at these five levels of leadership, and this is my observations of your life so far. And so let's just recap. So session one was uh calling or career, and we spoke about that. The opportunity presented to you was the knocking down of the wall. People are gonna have to go back and watch these because they I think they are it's good content. Number two, character and commitment, in terms of you need character to stay committed to the call, be the same on the platform as you are, off the platform, all those things with family learning. You've got it. Uh number three, which we just recently did, competition or kingdom, talking about unity, kingdom, those type of things, which bring you to that level of leadership. But the next one is gonna be pretty interesting for me and you to talk about. And it begins with C, again, which you'll be happy. I've followed you when you outline a term and alliteration. So this number is crisis or collapse. And you know, these levels of leadership that I've that this isn't me, you know, this isn't the typical New York Times bestseller American preacher with perfect wife white teeth, telling you follow the perfect following these seven steps and you will be the world's best leader. This is somebody who's committed to one place, stayed in one church and built from the ground up and all these type of things. And these levels of leadership, most people operate at a certain level, and that is absolutely fine. But sometimes uh opportunities are presented that just allows us to, I suppose, go into a new level of leadership. And most people will stay at number three, which is a really amazing place to be. You've got the call of God on your life, you're committed, you're of great character, you've understood kingdom rather than competition, and that's we could live our lives there, that would be great. But sometimes leaders have to do a thing that we termed in in our book recently, leading while bleeding, which is another level of leadership. And um, we're gonna talk a little bit about that today. Um, and in the studio here, not only do we have Pete who's been amazing, but we have my mother, your wife. Irene is sat in here. So this could get a little bit dangerous. So if you do hear tears flooding in in the background, it's probably not Pete. That's true, it could be Irene. But I thought, because this is gonna be a little bit of a heavy one, I read an interesting story I wanted to talk to you about today. Are we going to be crossing one of those lines that we talked about? Never seen the line, so don't know where it is. Um but I'll tell you afterwards. You'll tell me after. So obviously, you've been in a um a season of transition in the original sense of the word. You are senior out of senior leadership into what you're what you're doing now. Now I heard a great story. So a senior leader has just come out of leading a church, faithfully led a church 30 years. He's he's handed it on to the new guy, okay? The new pastor of the church looks in the diary and he notices he's got a sermon series coming up. And this is gonna be a bit awkward because my mum and dad are in the room, but there's uh a talk he's wanting to bring to the church on a Sunday morning on sex. Okay, you know what that is, physical relationship. Yes. So he's a little bit nervous, he feels underqualified to talk about such a subject. So he thought, I tell you what, I'll do I'll ring the founding pastor and I'll get him back in to give the talk because he's probably more equipped to talk about such things like that. So, anyway, he gives him a call. The founding pastor answers the phone and he says, Hello, founding pastor. Um, I am doing a sermon series, and when we get to week four, I've got to do a talk on sex, and I feel a little bit underqualified to do so. Is that something that you'd be happy to jump back in and do? And he said, Yeah, I would love to do that. Spoken about it a lot, I know what I'm doing. So he goes, Great. Would you mind putting the date down? So he said, No problem, I'm a bit of a pen and paper guy. That's like you are. So he gets his gets his diary out, he finds the Sunday that he's meant to do this talk, but he thinks, I'm not gonna write that word in my diary talk about because it's just gonna look a bit odd. So what I'm gonna do instead is I'm gonna put talk about sailing. Because then if somebody opens my diary and sees that, it's it's not gonna be odd. Okay. We're getting closer to the weekend. The church are hyped, they know the talk that's coming, and so the new pastor, a little bit nervous, obviously new to leadership, he thought, I better just check in with the founding pastor just to make sure everything's okay for the weekend. So he rings the phone, it's a house phone because he's older, he's got a house phone. Do you have a house phone? Yes, you got yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah, we very seldom use it.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Was it a trim phone?

SPEAKER_02 6:06

I don't know what that is. But anyway, the phone rings, okay? So he's ringing, he's waiting for the answer. The founding pastor's wife answers the phone and says, Hello, is such and such there, please? I'd just like to check something for Sunday. And she said, He's not in actually, he's out playing golf. And so he thought, Oh no, that's made me a little bit nervous. She said, Oh, you're talking about this Sunday. Well, he uses his diary all the time. Let me go and check his diary for you. He waits on the end of the phone. The founding pastor's wife, she opens the diary to the Sunday entry and she says, She sees founding pastor speaking at church on the subject of sailing. Anyway, she reads this in her head. She goes back to the phone and she starts laughing. So this the the new pastor's like, what's she laughing at? He went, I've just seen what he's talking about on Sunday. She's like, I and he's waiting for a response. She went, he knows nothing about that subject. The last time he tried to do the last time he tried to do that, he was violently sick and the wind blew his hat off.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Well, Iren, Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Do you think he crossed a line?

SPEAKER_02 7:19

In that gold. That's excellent. Anyway, um, that's a good story to start because this is gonna be Founding Pastors Gifted. Founding pastors are gifted, yeah. What we're gonna talk about is this next level of leadership, which is crisis or collapse. And so we did try just lightening the mood a little bit a moment ago because this is gonna be a little bit of a heavier one. And certainly this isn't a path that all leaders uh uh have to walk, which is amazing. But some leaders are uh in situations where, once again, as I've tried to use these illustrations, whether it's the knocking down of the wall, the answering of the phone, I'm gonna let our viewers into a little secret. Um this episode is actually to do with uh the opening of a wardrobe. So I'm just gonna leave you with that. And you might be able to sense where that is going.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

And uh the decision that was made then, I think um was um why that I think that you became this level of leader. And um crisis or collapse, and one thing that we don't anticipate as leaders is illness, struggle, setback, financial crisis, relational breakdowns, they're usually things we counsel other people in. Um they don't usually we don't usually associate them with uh coming to our own door. But just recapping a little bit of the story, um when we wrote about this in the book, we kind of found ourselves as a family even though as I was younger. You would say, I think you quoted that our lives seemed kissed by grace.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Yeah, I I forgot a story about that actually to do with uh grapevine. Yeah. Irene and I on the Friday night, uh no, it'd be the Thursday night before the Friday uh began, um, we went into the went to the show ground, a number were praying across the showground, and we went into the big top. And uh in those days there were stands, and we went to the top of the bleachers, the stands, and we sat and I remember just having a little nostalgic chat. Isn't it amazing that this um this tent's going to be filled with thousands of people uh who would have guessed that this had happened, had happened. And uh I remember saying something like, you know, it feels as though our lives have been, you know, kissed with his grace, uh some phrase like that. Um, amazed at God's goodness, amazed at God's kindness. But um, we'd just been through um some of the refreshing meetings of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit, really enjoyed the the presence of God in very special ways. We've been to a number of special meetings. I remember in Pittsburgh, great move of the spirit, again, a unity move, um, hours of um uh people being prayed for to be blessed. There it was a real time of refreshing and joy, marked out by laughter and you know, some phenomena of the spirit, and and we'd had lots and lots of meetings, evenings, and so on. And I remember saying something like, It's amazing our lives have been kissed with his grace, his blessing is on our lives. And I wonder if we've been, if you like, strengthened uh and blessed for harder days ahead. Sure. I remember thinking, you know, a bit about the Joseph thing and the Joseph story of um, you know, periods of of blessing and then periods of hardship and so on. And and it was uh amazing because it wasn't long after that episode that the um the page of a new chapter kind of turned from everything going right to a lot of things coming into our lives, starting firstly with the loss of our parents, yeah, uh my mum and dad and uh Irene's mum and dad. And it's amazing, isn't it? And uh often things seem to come together. Sure. And so uh we had those things take place in our lives, but the bigger challenge was just round the corner, which we're going to talk about now.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

And I think I would experience the same at you know, 16 years old, great relationships with friends, family, didn't have any time or room in life, I suppose, for anything untoward. Uh played a lot of football, soccer to our American friends. And I'd like to go on record, I was the top goal scorer in the A division in my first league. 34 goals.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

And I'd like to go on record that I was often at the side cheering on.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

You were, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Um and I suppose, as you said, a a chapter in our lives turned, and uh it actually started with uh mum having a few struggles with her back and we mentioned the parents' deaths, then there was I Irene had uh a number of issues uh culminating in back surgery, and she is now the bionic woman. She is strangely slightly smaller than in those days, and and that's with um um you know uh bars the word bars bars metal bars and uh and screws in the back, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah. Well, um so obviously this the the greater challenge uh that we that we face was to do with me. Yeah. And um I remember waking up one day, and it's it's always very difficult even uh a number of years on to reshare the story, as you can imagine. But we did make a promise. I made a promise to God that I would continue to do it no matter how difficult that is, because I know it helps people. And uh yeah, um to cut a very long story short, because obviously there was so much that went on, ended up in me um going to see an eye consultant because woke up one day and there was definitely something wrong with my eye. And we just went locally to have a look, and he had a look into the back of my eye and kind of stepped back a bit from there and said, This this is beyond me. I'm gonna have to refer you to one of the leading ophthalmologists in the country, he's in Leicester, and um he'll be able to help you from here. Didn't really give anything away, and we kind of thought, oh, that's annoying, isn't it? We wanted this just dealt with and over. And uh so we we got in the car and we often make jokes about your driving, don't we? Which is a little bit unfair. But I don't. In this day, that there wasn't the great road from Lincoln to Leicester that there is now, so and with you being the law-abiding citizen that you are, um, we obviously it took a bit of time to get there. Well, because I kept to the rules of the road, of course. Absolutely. But when when we arrived, uh, I think that was the moment when we noticed something wasn't right. So the the leading man's registrar came into the room and she kind of took one look at me, walked out immediately, and we looked at each other and thought that's probably not a good sign. And then an amazing man walked in who became my consultant, dressed in a suit, looked great, and um he informed me that there was something going on he was really concerned about and needed to get me back for an operation on my eye. And so we went home that day and uh kind of a little bit disillusioned, bit thinking about this is this is turning out to be something beyond what we thought, but certainly had no ideas that this would be anything other than an infection, anything. Yeah, absolutely. So I went back for the operation, which was pretty nasty, obviously, having surgery on your eye. And uh it was at that point in time when I was in the recovery room asleep, you were you were asked as a family to go into one of those side rooms, and it's just you know, for any family with children, those are the rooms that you never ever want to be in, where you're taken and you're counselled by um the medical team that what they have seen could be a devastating diagnosis. And I remember the first person's face I saw when I woke up from that operation was your face, and I asked you all the questions a young 16-year-old boy would say, What have they said? What have they said? Is my am I gonna keep my eye? All of these type of things. And you looked at me and you you didn't bury your head in the sand, you didn't just tell me what I wanted to hear. You said, Whatever this thing is, Dave, we're gonna fight it with all that we have. I then entered the darkest week of my life. It was waiting for the results, not knowing the prognosis, what was going to happen, but had heard words like aggressive and heard words of disease. And I was 16, just, you know, thought I was invincible. I thought, you know, I went to church every Sunday. My parents are the pastors, you know, I play guitar in the worship team. What bad could possibly happen to me? I remember also a little side note, and this just a gentle encouragement, because if I'm telling you this sad story, uh you can't get mad at me. I went to a a stagdo that week, if you remember. And uh I was young, so I was only I was only 16, but I went to an Indian restaurant where a lot of my friends or people I had looked up to in church were behaving in a way that they shouldn't have been behaving. Um I don't know about you, some people, especially men in the church, um, see these opportunities as a past to misbehave and then just ask God for forgiveness the next day. I personally don't think it should work like that, and uh, that really hurt me deep within to see people I'd looked up to misbehaving, and I was the one facing this trial and this battle. And so I made I made a decision there that if I were to ever get married, my stag do, and all of those things associated would wouldn't be anything like what I experienced. So that's maybe just a little encouragement to the people not to abuse the wonderful gift of grace.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah, just I I actually think there's less of that going on today. Yeah. I think there are some encouraging signs around uh our church at the moment. There's a a generation coming through that are getting serious about the Bible and prayer and those kind of things, and they're actually going out on the streets and sharing the gospels. That's very true. I do think things have shifted. Yeah. I think that era there were people that had been brought up in church life and got used to it.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

And uh take things for granted. And hopefully they've passed through those things and to a better way.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

And uh so we went back, we we did that famous little journey from Lincoln to Leicester with me driving. With you driving. And I suppose we were given news we we never thought we'd hear in a lifetime. And uh it was a pretty bleak prognosis, and they used even used some statistics of a three in a million just in my age, you know, and below, so incredibly rare. And we first time we'd heard the C-word, which I don't even w want to give any airtime to today, and we were forced into a world I think I'd only ever seen on TV. You know, maybe we'd been in the the comfort of our own family home and you'd see a children's oncology ward, and you would have a huge amount of compassion and feel hurt, but you would never associate it with your own life. And I had to be aware that this this home, this it would what was called ward 27, was going to become my new home. And I then went into a a week of intense testing, every test possible to the human body. I pretty much had done, I had a Hickman line fitted into the top of my heart that made a hole in my chest, and that hung out. And um, as we were saying, you know, perspective, we we had to really quickly look at our perspective on this. And I remember opening the Bible when I was just about to have another operation and it fell open to the John chapter 9, which is the story of the man born blind. And Jesus answers a lot of those perspective questions quite quickly to his disciples, Rabbi, who sinned this man or his parents that he was born blind? And Jesus' answer, well, neither. This is happening, so the words are.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Well, that's a very important thing because in church life there's often been that's almost a cruel comment, you know, is has this come to you because of some sin in your life? And of course, as a pastor, I was asking that about our family. Uh did we leave some door open? Is there something that and uh we we talked as a family around that um scripture quite a bit? In fact, we wrote a book as a result of the you remember when Jesus spat on the ground and made the mud and put it in his eyes, and yeah, you know, and that's not what you do, is it? With um uh with uh an eye, and yet there was symbolism there for us and um quite a great description actually of mud in the eye, we called it, and and we found out that you got to have a lot of treatment. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

I remember the the first day of the treatment we woke up and I was obviously very scared about it because it wasn't just a tablet send you on your way home. It was hooked up to machines for a few days on end. And I remember they had to put about I remember the the total 6,000 milliliters of fluid just around my body before they would administrate the chemotherapy, just to try and in the hope of protecting some of the vital organs. I know, thankfully they didn't.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

We ought to back up slightly though, didn't we? Because that first um time when we heard the news. Yes, we need to say a thank you, don't we, as well, to Pete and Kath Atkins. Absolutely. Dr. Pete was uh a real strength to us behind the scenes. If we felt a little bit uh in darkness, Irene and I would pop down, uh pop round the we lived close to each other at the time. And on that particular day we went to see the consultant, they came with us, didn't they? Yeah. And and the story I think you're gonna come to happened on that day, didn't it?

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah, we've got a lot to be thankful for for that family, actually. Um and yeah, um when we were about to start the treatment, it was mum's Bible note reading. Do you remember that? Yeah. And yeah, thank God. Thank God for UCP readings. And so I said to you, Well, can't we just go home and pray a bit harder? Because you know, in the Bible we talk we we see blind eyes open and we see sicknesses leave people's body, and that would have been nice. But um there was there was a bit of a different path I had to walk. And when we Mum was reading these notes, it talked about Naaman being dipped seven times in the muddy waters of the River Jordan. It did. And there's a little throwaway comment that I'd never really noticed in there. It said Naaman would have chosen any other river. And I suppose for us we were we'd have chosen any other any other way.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Well, who who wants chemotherapy and radiotherapy?

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

And and of course we had prayer teams that were praying, and there are stories attached to that, aren't there, God? A huge amount. God um never gave us that overnight miracle, but there were definite miracles in one way.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

So I I remember as as treatment started, we um one of the big moments for me was the the Dave Hare losing ceremony that we had at our house. And one of the things that we decided, which I think was a um as we had this perspective that this wasn't God, uh, this isn't punishment, um, this isn't something that I'd done wrong, but God was gonna allow me to walk through this and He was gonna then use it somehow, even though we had no clue what that would look like. There are some things I thought that are out of my control at this stage. I had to trust in God a lot, but there are some things that are in my control. And I remember thinking, if this chemotherapy is gonna my hair's gonna all fall out at 16, how about I get there first? And how about we um we make it into a fun Dave hair losing party, and instead of the treatment winning, I'm gonna do that. So sat in the kitchen and Glenn, the my brother-in-law, got the clippers out, shaved my head. And suppose then when you take time out privately and look into the mirror and and see that, um, that's when the story I think got real for me. And subsequently, um you know, about six to eight months of of treatment, um, I would go into a hospital on usually on a Monday or a Wednesday, stay there for three days in a bed whilst I suppose you could call it poison was put through my body. And we then found out that I had to have 25 sessions of pretty intense radiotherapy, which is a whole a whole new thing in itself. We'd been prepared for these side effects of chemo, and then we hear about radiotherapy. But there was an amazing story, wasn't there, on the the seventh?

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

So we as the seventh chemotherapy. Yeah, and so we we talk about overnight miracle, but the daily miracles and things that God did, even to the extent where I had to have my blood checked, didn't I, before I would go in and there was a level that they were looking for because the chemotherapy was so toxic. Yeah um they the the number had to be a certain thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

So the mum monitored that really closely, and yeah, she wouldn't take no for an answer. If they if they said there's no uh possibility of treatment this week, yeah, she would say, Well, we need the blood taken again, and then you'd find you they actually took to view being the magical neutrophil uh maker maker, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah, some it was amazing. So supernatural, even at one time I believe they asked Mum if it was her blood. They did really they did because they they were just like this in the natural just doesn't happen, yeah. And so there was things like that, but we had the word that on the seventh, yeah, the seventh dip, yeah, you would be healed.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

But I remember saying it too. Uh you know, there were certain things that I said not knowing. Yeah. Um, like we'll fight this, yeah. So no word, you're gonna get well. Yeah because we couldn't do that. Yeah. But I remember after just getting those scriptures, I remember saying to you really, as leadership as I could, yeah, um, you will be healed on the seventh. Well, seventh dip. Now, how could you prove that? Yeah. And when I'd said it, I'm then thinking it'd be nice to have some kind of sign that I'm not crazy.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yes, and you weren't, because uh my protocol had said I needed nine rounds of this stuff and 25 of the radiotherapy. So when we got to session seven, I was laying in the bed as usual, and uh one of the things was the chemotherapy was always on time, and because of my stuff was pretty, pretty toxic, they brought a whole team of people, and it was it was a big operation, wasn't it, to start it going. And I remember thinking they're a little bit late today, that's unusual. And I had this line fitted into the top of my heart, and I had to have a surgery to put it in, it was stitched in place. Um, I'd played, you know, I'd done as much activity as I could for the last four months. Yeah, because often we nervously say, you know, step back a bit, don't do that, do this. So this was all tied up in place. You once I was finished my treatment, I'd have to go back for a surgery to actually have it removed. That's how kind of fixed in place it was. And obviously, everybody was praying, and we're thinking it would be great to have a sign uh, you know, on the seventh. And I remember laying in the bed thinking the chemotherapy's late, probably feeling pretty unwell, and I felt this funny sensation in my chest. And I looked down, there was nobody there, there's nothing pulling on it, it's not caught. There, you know, there's no no reason at all. And I felt this like almost like a pulling sensation, like there was somebody on the end of that thing pulling it. That obviously freaked me out a little bit because I'm like, have I got it caught? So, you know, if you were to watch me back on a TV, I'd be like looking what's going on. There was nothing there that it was hanging freely, and then all of a sudden I felt another pull, and this line just slowly started to slide out of my chest and just hung on, just stuck on my lap. And the chemotherapy then arrives, and of course, everybody's a little bit panicked and chaotic because it's probably a small hole in my chest, and they're all like putting stuff in it to make sure it's okay, and then we kind of hear back from the the nurses to say this they've never seen this happen before. You have to go to surgery to take this thing out. Plus, also, we're late with the chemotherapy. If we had administrated that, whilst it was slightly in the wrong place, I'd have needed plastic surgery all around here. And uh we we as much as you went as white as a sheet.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Well, you know, I'm really good with medical things. Actually, I I did quite well uh because I was sat at the side watching this thing. More of a mum job than that. Mum was mum was the nurse. In fact, she would have loved to have been a nurse, uh, you know. Abbott has proven her skills with you, I think. Yeah, because she sat each night and was always there for you. Yeah. But that was an amazing sign on the seventh day. Something else happened though in radiotherapy, which we've not talked about that much, but it was quite amazing, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 29:29

It was amazing. I mean, a couple of times, you know, I'd go into this radiotherapy room, I had this mask made on my face, I was clamped to a table and not a very nice scene considering I couldn't move and this big machine was about to fire something into my face. And um, I remember the first time I felt the sensation of a hand just tapping on the side of my face, just just where I suppose they were gonna fire the stuff. And I felt it, I could hear it, it was like audible, and it was almost like I could feel it. So they're watching me behind six-foot lead walls, you know, on a camera because they can't go near this stuff, and they can see me on the CCTV, like stroking the side of my head. And so the lady comes over the tanno and says, Mr. Well, Dave, probably you you've got to keep still, you need to put your arms down. I said, No, there's somebody still in the room. And she's looking, she's like, Th there's nobody in the room. I said, Somebody's tapping on the side of my face, and she's like, There's nobody, there's nobody in there. And so she came in to check and reassured me, and I was like, That's a little bit odd, but you know, when we read in the Bible about, you know, the fourth man in the fire.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

I know, and there were these there was also, and you forget these things, that's why talking the story through again and just making sure you're accurate with it is so important. But you also saw saw blue lights.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Yeah, and so when the radiotherapy happened, they said you will not know it's happening. The noise of the machine stays the same, so you won't know if the machine is on or off, and you you there'll be no sensation to you. You just sit there and just let it happen. But what was amazing for me was the noises stayed the same, but I knew the exact moment when the radiation was happening because my vision and my light, like my eyes, you have to keep them closed. It was filled with this blue light that was like an intense kind of blue light that filled my vision. And at first it kind of took me a little bit by surprise, and I couldn't really do a lot because I was clamped down. But we told the person straight away, I was like, Well, I know when the stuff's happening because my whole vision, everything goes this bright neon type blue type thing, and she was like, Well, that shouldn't be happening, I'm not sure what that is.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

So we ended up having to see a specialist consultant, and yeah, I mean we said uh that there's no light involved, it's uh it's a totally different process, it shouldn't happen. Yeah, and there was, you know, our friend Jack Roblesky had just heard a prophecy about healing, and uh the you know how prophets have these interesting comments and signs. The sign of this will be blue light, yeah. And we've got so many of those little stories, I think, that um make all of these bits fit together in God was with you at the beginning, middle, and right the way through.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

I do need to bring you back to the you started this by saying you were going to major on a specific thing, which we've passed the the the moment, a wardrobe. Yeah, that is right. So I was gonna I was what I was gonna do was cleverly go back to the room. You were already going that way. Well, you carry on down your track, but the reason I say that is that I think that day for me was a we're we're on to this. Yes. You know, as the church, as a pastor, as a father, yeah, we're gonna get this done. Yeah. So how were you gonna weave that back, Linda? Very cleverly.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

So uh as uh we've got to this stage where chemotherapy, radiotherapy, but as you can remember, I I told you that what was the darkest week of my life prior to all of this. It was the week of unknown, waiting for the results. And of course, there was that moment when we had to go back and receive the diagnosis. But that morning was quite interesting for me. I think I'd had a nightmare the night before, which was fairly common in this whole process. Some of the anti-sickness drugs I then started to have would there was hallucination and various things going on. I remember like the Back to the Future moment where I I would kind of see a family portrait of our family, and I would like disappear, you know, out of that thinking, is this going to be our story? And I remember going back the day we went back for the results where we've talked about with Pete and Kath, I came out of the my bedroom that day, and by this time the my face looked quite deformed on this side, and I wore sunglasses to kind of hide what was going on. And I remember getting to the top of the stairs and had to be pretty careful, so tipped my head back just to see. And uh I remember this this moment where and so this is the the fourth level and the the opportunity presented. You were obviously going to come with me, and you opened the wardrobe that morning. And I suppose in the natural you would just want to wear what's comfy, you would want to wear this this could be a day that was a life-changing news day, um, but God told you, I believe, to pick out your best suit, not usually associated with going to hospital consultations, it's usually the surgeon that would wear the suit. And so when I came to the bottom of the stairs and I saw you wearing your best suit, I questioned it and said, Why are you wearing that? And the response was on the lines of, Well, we're gonna see a number of experts today in their field, but we're an expert in ours, and where they may look at science manuals, we look at the word of God and we take this uh situation seriously and we we're in control. And that was the moment I'd noticed that leading while bleeding on this level four that I've just made up, um the opportunity presented to you to be that level of leader came when you put the suit on.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yeah, well, when I got out of bed, the natural thing would be slip some ink on, you know, put your jeans on, etc. But as clearly as I think I I've heard things in the past, it was uh get your suit on. Yeah. And with that putting of the suit on, I think an authority was given. And a genuine, because you know, for all of us, if you go into uh meeting consultants, they know more than you do.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Um we had a a friend, uh professor who um put his team on finding out what that cancer was. Um we thank God for for that. Um he was an expert in all that field of research. But I felt as I woke up, you know, there's an I consultant, there's a professor of research consultant, but I'm a consultant. And this is this ought to be my field of expertise. Because if you are a leader of a church, you know, if in preaching you're consistently making statements about our authority in Christ, yeah, that we've been given authority to use the name of Jesus, then I felt that day I'm a consultant, and whatever happens today we're going to make it through. So I did, um I think perhaps Irene put a nice frock on as well, and we um and we and we went, and I remember the the interview where we heard the bad news, yes, and then you're taken, thrust into this world that you were not prepared for, and we went off often into that particular ward with all the descriptions you've given of small children's with feet feeding tubes, etc. But I think that for Irene and myself, we we went in there, yes, as parents, but also as experts in our field, yeah, knowing that Jesus is who he says he is.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

And that um though this is a deadly thing, there's a name that's higher, yeah, etc. And almost those thoughts of if you proclaim this on platforms, it has to work in your daily life. Yeah. And so, uh, and I don't think we were, I think we were measured in it, but we had an I certainly felt a new confidence, and we had prayer backup. We could talk for a lot on prayer meetings where people prayed specifically and powerfully, and thank God for Nigerian intercessors that were really strong in faith and so on. And I think on that day, when when we spoke to the consultant, and a number of people were a bit nervous of her, she was a great consultant, but a little bit um, let's say, strong and very firm. We I won her over in the end. I think you did. And what I remember when all of this was through and you were given the all clear, I remember the consultant said to Irene something like your recipe has worked. And actually, um we uh during that time would do our best to do that little pastoral visit round families. You know, not not a lot we didn't encroach on people's worlds, but we were there meant to be as light in dark situations.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Yeah. And um moving on a little bit, we obviously I went through all of the treatment, and there's a lot of stories we could share in and around that, and the how how difficult that was. Um it's difficult to start naming people we're thankful for because there's so many. There's so many, yeah. Um we've mentioned Pete and Kath, but I I think Jeff and Kay Lucas were uh pretty instrumental. Um obviously to lighten it slightly, there is a story. There is a story. I mean, one of the tests I had um uh a a week full of tests, lumber punches, scans, needles, the full but there was a test at the end of the week. Um obviously coming to you at the age of 16, you said, I'm gonna have to sit you down and talk to you about something that the doctors have said that because of the amount of treatment that's gonna go through your body, um, they would suggest that children would be unlikely in the future. And that must that must have been a fairly hard conversation for you to have with me. I think Pete Atkins was there at the time. And it meant that I'd have to go to a sperm bank at the age of 16, and um you never ever expect that you'd have to do something like that. So I I suppose to lighten the mood slightly, um, it happened to be the day that Jeff Lucas was gonna spend the day with us.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

And we came to Leicester Hospital and we had to go to another room, uh another part of the hospital, didn't we?

SPEAKER_02 41:14

We did, and I said to Jeff, I've got an interesting test coming up, mate. Do you want to come and wait?

SPEAKER_01 41:20

It was particularly. I mean it was fun. My recollection of that day was was not heavy duty, actually. It was just fun because we went into this room and with very many people suffering so sombre and for obvious reasons people were really low. And yeah. And so we went in there and you pick up the story there.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Yeah, well, uh, we won't go into any more detail, but obviously I thought it'd be appropriate that when the test was completed, um I came out into the rather somber waiting room with the sample cup raised high, singing some sort of old hymn Victory and Jesus, I believe. Um so I had a round of applause from you and Jeff and I uh clapped profusely. The waiting room Lynn did. Nobody joined in with that for some strange reason. But then um Jeff would often say, like, he you know, he's a he's a like a real preacher. So sometimes he'll get up on the stage and he'll say things like, Oh, I hope this all exists. You know, that kind of thing. But actually he did one of the biggest faith moves we've seen. And that was Because he's very measured in those things. Incredibly recognising suffering and pain. He must have heard the voice of God on this because in the natural it's not something you do. He brought a champagne bottle onto a wow. You went you went first. You went first. It was my um I'm fine, I'm fine. Um he brought a champagne bottle on to uh discreetly, obviously, yeah. Um to a children's oncology ward and and said, one day we will we will open this together.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Take it so and put it on the mantle. That's faith in it. I think is what he said. And yeah, and I think it is true that something happened with him as well, and you have featured in one of his books as well, because he became a part of our journey. I think it it's an amazing thing how when you needed a happy voice, yeah, he would turn up. Yeah, and uh, you know, and of course, Jeff, being Jeff, always surrounded by funny stories, and um, I'm sure the one that you've just shared, he will have embellished somewhat. I hope so. Um and and shared. But both of us um felt a part of that. And Jeff's been a good friend for a long period of time.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

There is so many people we could mention, even you know, American Friends and Dwayne, and everybody been in and around that was uh uh amazing at those moments in time. Um I suppose we we get towards Christmas and uh The the dream and the prayer was that this would be all over by Christmas and I think three or four days before we were I think we were walking round the bale, I think at the time, if my memory serves me right. And Mum had a call on the final scan just to say that it was all clear.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Well, actually, we didn't get the call for the all clear until after Christmas. Really? Yeah, and I'll tell you the the final bit of this because Christmas, that Christmas where we're still uh and let me just check with Irene. I'm accurate.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Irene is doing some sort of movement.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Yeah, well Yeah, there were other signs as well. Irene's making signs, Dave. So we're gonna have to keep keep with this. See the track. But that Christmas, in a sense, should have been quite a difficult, hard Christmas. But if you remember Christmas Day, and I remember this distinctly, after we'd had our had our meal, there was such a sense of peace and contentment.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

That everybody, including the dog, I remember, because the dog was like this asleep. Everybody, obviously I wasn't because I saw this, but and I did sleep that afternoon. It was a light it was almost as though we're now we now can relax. But we did have to wait until I think it was the second or third week in January for the actual result. Though I think we were so sure at Christmas that that did give us the peace.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

But last week, Dave, and this is why it's kind of nice to to connect these things with times. Last week I was at a meeting this week. Uh yeah, this where are we now? Anyway, it didn't really matter. Last week I was at a meeting with uh Terry Virgo. Yeah. And I remember that it was at that meeting. I was gonna share that actually in the January. Yes. 20 years. How long is it? That would have been January 2004. January 2004. We're in this room with all of these leaders, uh, waiting for the phone call. And of course, I'm a little bit edgy um and um not totally concentrating, and then um the the phone buzzes in my hands, yeah. In my hand, and I walk out of the room, and it's Irene saying, It's all clear. And I went back into the room and shared it uh with the with the group, and there was, you know, um a lot of applause and thanks, etc. And every year since, yeah, I may have missed one or two, but I even this year, always mention this is the meeting, you know, where we got our um victory, if you like, and our our good news story. So it's it's a story now, Dave, right up to date. Yeah. And um, and you know, we could spend a lot of time that you made a a decision that um if you came through this, you were going to give your life to what you're doing now, and of course you're proven that. Um God's blessed you, uh, you're involved in worship, you've had opportunities to travel in places many haven't, and of course your future is incredibly bright. And oh, we could tell so many stories, couldn't we?

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Well, I suppose bringing up to speed with I got married. And that that to me was when you're told, when you're given the list of facts that you have to face and may not look the same again, and all of these type of things, I thought, would would that be in my future? And uh yeah, we'll probably throw a photo up or two in a minute. And um yeah, we got married on the 4th of August 2007 to the incredible Sarah, and she just total gift, we're married way out of my league. I've been told on a number of times. Um I suppose when me and Sarah were in uh our engaged stage, and I said, you know, if you choose to marry me, that's a brilliant decision on your part. However, there are these facts we've got to face as a couple, and we started to talk about the doctors in the natural had said children might be difficult, and um she was a qualified midwife and you know, delivers babies as a profession, and um I'm sure always wanted to be a mum, so that was a difficult conversation. But um, in in the simplicity of not knowing all the answers, in the mystery of all of this, to see a miracle, we just had to give God the impossible. And uh to bring the story right up to date, we've got four miracle kids, and um God has gone exceedingly above and beyond. And uh yeah, you had them all this week, so well done for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Yes, and God gave us the gift of babysitting over the well, they're not really babies now, are they?

SPEAKER_02 49:12

No, we've got sixteen, twelve, ten, and five.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

It is a fantastic story. Amazing. And um and of course you then enter into the mysteries of Yes. Could it be, and we mentioned this about Paul right at the beginning, didn't we? Yeah, could it be that through some of that suffering and pain you were given a perspective that a lot of people really don't have?

SPEAKER_02 49:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

With regard to the importance of uh the Christian faith. Yeah. Uh the need to maximize your life, yeah. The need to say, you know, I'm not gonna um fritter away my time. I want it to count.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

And I don't just want it to count for my own benefit, but for uh the benefit of the kingdom, which we've talked a lot about. And I want to say, well done. Because uh though our role was hard, uh yours was far harder. And uh it's through your experience that um all the things we've spoken of in terms of leadership and character and you know all of those things, you uh it it's it's this transformation, isn't it, that um God really does turn that which is evil and attended for your harm to good.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

And um you are who you are. Uh not because God sent you this stuff, but because when it came, uh we together didn't become cynical, didn't say I'm giving up on church, didn't say God doesn't exist, yeah, but dug deeper into scripture to identify with the fact that whatever happens, uh Jesus really is Lord, and we're in this very short life that we are given by God that we have to live to the full. And thankfully, the the promise over your life today is long life that you'll be satisfied with. Yeah. So good chat. Great chat, good church chat. Good church chat.