108: The Fake and Nonexistent History of Lycanthropy

Join us this week as Llewyn goes through the surprising history of Lycanthropes in Dungeons and Dragons, some particularly weird called shots, and Pizza Rat being canon in the world of D&D.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You the adventurer? Yes, you. Do you desire knowledge of immense worlds and arcane power? A codex of untold stories and law? Or perhaps simply easy listening for your daily commute? And feature eyes. Or more accurately? Yes. Upon Dungeon Pedia. It's about to get nerdy in here.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Hello everyone, and welcome to Dungeon Pedia, an exploration into the lore of Dungeons and Dragons. We're your host Lou and Markel.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Taylor Peasley.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

And I'm Travis Peasley.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

So I well, first of all, uh your haircut looks amazing.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Your haircut does look amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Very A plus uh haircut. Thank you. It's it's been that's been long overdue. It was it was long and thick. Long and overdue. Yeah, and it's fucking hot outside. But you know how it is. You get like you get like a couple bad haircuts in a row, and then you're just like, I'll just I'll I'll grow it out for a little bit. I'll figure it out later. And then it's like two plus years later, and you're like, oh just have my wife cut my hair.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Yeah, because then if I do a bad job, he can just be mad at me. You just you just like I've never done a bad job.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

You just like sit down on the on the you know on the um on the on the toilet lid, and you're just like not lid, seat, whatever, you know what I'm fucking talking about. And you're just like, okay, give me give me like a two and then and then just like take it up a little bit and trim my sidebarns, you know, and you're just like okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:55

You know, you kind of almost described his old haircut.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

And then just yeah, yeah, and you do still have to give um a tip at the end. Um, okay, I didn't even mean that. I didn't even mean that uh we're married, Lewin. Well, no, I know okay. No, no, I didn't forget that part. I didn't forget that part. I'm just saying I didn't mean it that way. I was thinking like literally like a five-dollar bill.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

I know, I know, I know. But yeah, so yeah, you're you're freed of of hair.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Yeah, I am freed of of hair for now at least. Um, but in addition to other um alterations to my appearance, I uh to to to to pin back the curtain a little bit, I my initial concept for this was just like werewolves, right? Um it's in a cut, you know, it's like I did vampires last time. May as well, you know, it's werewolves or whatever. Yeah. Um, and I kind of I had the thought that I wanted to get one of those one of those three wolf moon like shirts to wear.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

Inside of you as three wolves, one is the one is gayer and one is the gayest.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

You are gay. Um but like so so one day I was at Walmart for other things, and I was like, surely they have they have one, right? Like they have a three wolf moon shirt.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

I mean, everyone always has a three wolf. I I can go into my back of my closet and I'm sure I have a three-wolf movie shirt somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

But I was like, surely they have one on like one of those shitty t-shirt carousels that have like you know, they have just like like eight dollar t-shirts. Yeah, of like the Superman logo, and then there's like another one that says like this guy needs a beer or whatever. Uh but they didn't have one.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

I'm sorry. This is the you're what you're describing is the way my mother-in-law buys gifts.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Oh, yeah, but they didn't I'm not gonna comment.

unknown 3:56

I'm right.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

But they didn't, they didn't have one, but I was like, you know what, that's okay. That's okay. Because like after I did the thing with the teeth last week, which I did like I did already own, um, but like I say last week, last you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Last week your last your last episode.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

I'm gonna, I'm probably gonna, I I'm probably gonna say that every single time. But yeah, but I was like, after I did that, and I was like, if I bought a t-shirt for this one, it's gonna be a thing. I was like, is this is gonna turn into a thing? And I I I simply can't have it turn into a thing because like because then it would just it would just be too much.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Like and you would have to cement yourself as this podcast, Sam Regal.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, exactly. And like I just I can't do that.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

You know, there's too many you don't have a Sam Regal budget nor a Sam Regal uh range of voices.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

No, I don't I don't.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

I mean, uh we all wish that we had a Sam Regal budget and a Sam Regal range of voices, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Dude, the budget specifically also.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

We all wish we were Sam Regal.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

I mean, yeah, let's just leave it there. We all wish we were Sam Regal. This is true.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

I did, I did realize because eventually this uh, you know, it it it it sort of changed, um, transformed, if you will. And I realized that I did actually have an appropriate t-shirt because we're talking about several different kinds of lycanthropes, including wear rats. So I do have a wear rats. Where are they? They're in the sewers.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

Okay, um quick question before we dive in. If you were a lycanthrope, what lycanthrope would you be?

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Um I don't want to I don't want to name it because it's one of the it's one of the ones probably that we're not gonna talk about today. And I feel like if I start listing the ones that we're like not gonna talk about, then everyone is gonna be like, what about that? I want to hear about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

I think just going off of the little bit that I know and as far as like pretty much anything could technically be a lycanthrope or theoretically be a lycanthrope. Sometimes. Sometimes depends. I would like to go with uh something that would give me a bit more dexterity. So like a were tiger. That's a good, that's a good, that's a good pick.

SPEAKER_04 6:17

Um I would be aware rat because I'm a rat.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

I am also I'm also I am also a rat. I did I did have the I did have the thought that I I I when I was you know uh writing all this up. I was like, oh, like all of these are represented in the Chinese zodiac, except and then I realized that wasn't that wasn't true at all.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Um I realized that wasn't true at all.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

It was just um a couple of them, including the rat.

SPEAKER_04 6:47

I mean, but it's a cool concept. Like you you could have like a lore specifically around Chinese zodiac, yeah, which hypothetically we'll we'll get into it.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

There's a lot of there's a lot of sometimes things can be lyanthropes, sometimes they can't. Um, but there especially uh well and in in in later editions there is a lot of a lot of freedom kind of given to like where you can basically make any kind of wear creature, like they give you templates for it and stuff. Right. But it is also weirdly inconsistent at points. There's a there's a lot going on here.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

So Yeah, that's that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah, so lycanthropy. I this this this section here is is is titled like two minutes of real world lore, I swear, and I mean it because I opened the the Wikipedia page for like lycanthropy, and I said I'm I said I'm actually not doing this.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Um because if I start if I start simply not doing this.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

I'm not doing this because if I start reading about real life lycanthropy, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

Um then like then like real life lycanthropy mythologies, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Then like then I'm gonna find something like the the thing about like the vampire, like the the novel and like Mary Shelley and stuff, and then I'm gonna talk about that and it's not gonna be about Mary Shelley and Lord Fire Exactly, and we can't do that. We can't do that. This is about this is about werewolves and other things, but you know, um, so you know, obviously, like we're all adults here. Um, I mean Are we? Are we? I mean, hopefully, but like every like we've all existed on on planet Earth for a little while. Like you know what you know 30 years, you know what a a werewolf is, right? Um I'm not sure. So, you know, obviously uh and similarly to vampires, like the the the myths of about people transforming into various different kinds of animals for various reasons, like exist in so many different cultures all across the world. It's a whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

I mean, if I had to guess the myth of the werewolf, maybe not specifically tied to lycanthropy, but like a person or a human that shape shifts into a beast, often a wolf probably predates the written word.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, like I'm sure, you know, like I'm sure it makes sense. Yeah, I mean, like I don't uh that sounds weird to say, but like the the you know, the notion of of a person uh transforming into an animal makes sense, like that being a mythologically speaking. Mythologically makes sense, right? In the same way that a circumstance being definitely a hundred percent this person came back from the dead instead of some other weirdness happening, you know what I mean? Yeah, but you know, kind of our our modern idea of a werewolf is something that at least from the the the brief the briefest glimpses, the briefest of glimpses that I gave this is something that I think is kind of largely been calcified during the witch trials of the Middle Ages and also other various points, because they did those a lot. Um where um werewolf accusations would actually get kind of thrown into the mix there. Interesting because of uh because of different abilities to like control animals, specifically, you know, wolves.

SPEAKER_04 10:18

Okay, yeah, that that I actually did did remember. Yeah, like that that's pretty mainstay in wit witch trials.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Yeah, which is it is it is funny to imagine though, like just being like, Oh, I saw I saw Goody Proctor with the devil, and also this guy's a werewolf. You know, so then there's also like kind of I think that that also further calcified this association between werewolves and like the moon, you know? Because like which is which is fucking love the moon. Yeah, which is love the moon, you know. Right. Um witches love the moon. Witches love that fucking thing. Um and also so you know, for for for our purposes, you know, we're we're we're we're gonna go into the D D part of it with an understanding of a lycanthrope as a person who turns into some kind of animal or animalistic form under a full moon. Usually there's some element of of compulsion from the moon, and this individual can turn other people into lycanthropes by biting them. That's where we're at. That's that's werewolves 101.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Okay, so that's that's the baseline, that's where we're starting.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

That's that's that's where, but like like I said, we've all lived on the earth. I think everyone knows what a lycanthrope is. Over the years, DD has had many different kinds of lycanthropes. Were lions, were tigers, were bears. Oh my. Uh, sorry for the clickbait. We're not actually gonna talk about where lions. I'm sorry. I just wanted to make the joke. They do exist though.

SPEAKER_05 11:52

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Um uh so the issue here is that similar to a lot of the variants of vampires, like that I discussed last time, a lot of these have only made like a handful of appearances. Uh a good portion of them actually only appearing like once in one of a several different dragon articles that talk about lycanthropy.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Like, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

They're just like the time, and then it's it's just like the one time. Yeah. And then there's like some of them that are like, you know, they're in one of those, and then they're in like one module for like a specific setting. And they are cool, like they are cool, but I, you know, I wanted I wanted there to be at least a little bit of rhyme or reason as to kind of what we're looking at here. So I have selected five types of like and throw ups that I considered kind of to be like the main ones, I guess, because these have all received consistent representation in core materials throughout every edition. And I have mentally, and I also entitled this section this for some reason. Uh I've been calling them the big five, but I'm probably not gonna do that because the big five, the big five, especially because most of them are medium size or smaller. So but the the the sort of the the big five of lycanthropy here are where wolves, where boars, where tigers, where bears, and where rats. Okay. The sequence of letters of W E R E doesn't look real to me anymore.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Um, it's starting to just looking at your notes, it's starting to look starting to not start to look sane.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Like this is this is a fake thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Like also, it was a choice of them to make where boars and wear bears like yeah, be that close together in lists and so many of these. It's not gonna be.

SPEAKER_04 13:45

I think it was an intentional choice specifically to fuck with people.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

I think it was yeah, it was despite me specifically.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

You specifically, they knew in the future you would be doing this, so they said we're gonna fuck with this one particular person for the couple.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

Last week we covered them knowing about us, so they made the tarot deck of many things. This week they knew about us, so they decided to fuck with us by putting where boars and wear bears so close together.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Yeah, they decided that they needed to make me question whether or not I might actually have dyslexia.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

That is a question that most people with ADHD have every once in a while.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

It's fucking true. True. So all of these various types of lycanthropes have a lot of commonalities, particularly the first four, which is everything but the wear rats. And we are going to kind of establish that before we talk about each variety individually. So interestingly, this is very this is this might be a little pedantic of me to put it this way. Um, but the first appearances of lycanthropes don't actually describe them explicitly as people capable of transforming into beasts, and they make no such mention of factors like the full moon compelling them to transform, so on and so forth, which I know that sounds really pedantic of me to point out.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

Um after the vampire episode, I feel like some pedantry is deserted.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, but like because I'm sure that the intention was that they were like kind of saying the same thing I was earlier, where it's like people fucking know what a werewolf is.

SPEAKER_05 15:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Um, but I do think it is kind of funny because it's like, you know, if you have like a person who's playing in your campaign who's very adversarial and argumentative with the DM for no reason, they could be like, you know, technically technically, technically, it doesn't say that.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Well, technically, this is my world set up.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Right. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

Well, what I will say is especially white box made a ton of assumptions about the about the knowledge of people. Um I mentioned in the HollyFant mini sode that uh or that the elephants mini sode, I guess specifically, the HollyFant portion, that they never mentioned elephants or mammoths or mastodons at any point in the summary. You you kind of just had the picture and it described a trunk. And so so like you would put it together, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah, so you just like assumed like okay, it's an elephant.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Yeah, I just I do I just do think it's very and also because uh there's no there's no picture of them in white box, too. So I think it's very funny that they're just like, okay, yeah, you you know what a werewolf is you get the picture, you get you get what it is. Um, so for our purposes in D D, we're going to define a lycanthrope as a person, usually a human, right? This is a this is a whole thing that is capable of transforming into a specific animal-based uh form based on the type of lycanthroped that either birthed them or infected them, because that's also an important distinction. So in many cases, they also possess a hybrid form, which combines the features of their human form and animal form, um, usually like standing upright and having a limb structure similar to a humanoid, but with the head and other extra features of the animal, such as like claws, um, a tail. Yeah, yeah, you know, like a tail, you know. Just like this is okay, I'm gonna get it out of the way. It's a furry. It's a furry. It's a furry, it's a furry. It's a furry.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Like, I've just, you know, it it stands on two limbs, but it has an anthropomorphic creature, like yeah, it has anthropomorphic features, like a you know, a wolf head, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Like it it this is like this is the episode for it. Like, I'm this there's gonna be furries.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Um, let me add furries to the tag. Okay, it's just I'm just saying, it's just how it is.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Okay. I'm just saying, you know, you know, this is very serious. This is very serious coverage we're doing here.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

Dungeons and dragons, yeah, furry lore.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Exactly. Um the overlap. I'm just saying, it's not it's not a circle, but it's not, you know, it's not nothing. So the werewolf, were boar, were tiger, and where bear were all introduced in the white box set, which was released in 1974, and the where rat was introduced in Greyhawk, which was published in 1975. So, like right after. It's all pretty close together. The where rats can still hang. Yeah. Um, so the the uh the monstrous manual, which was released in 1993, addresses the fact, I don't know if anyone else is the type of person I am who has who kind of thinks about this sometimes, but uh the monstrous manual actually addresses the fact that the word lycanthrope could actually technically be considered a misnomer. I have thought about it, yeah. You know, given that it is associated with all types of wear creatures, even though the prefix comes from the word lichen, which means wolf. Yes, and clarifies that a more technically correct term would be therianthrope, the prefix of which comes from therios, which means animal.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yeah, yeah. No, I don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

And then which which is funny because they they say this and then proceed to like not use the word ever again, which is really funny. Yeah, they're getting ahead of technically they're getting ahead of you and me specifically, Louis. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Which I I don't like I don't mind the use of lycanthrope for non-wolf creatures. It's just it's just like I have to point it out first, and then I will continue to use lycanthrope.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Right, yeah, because it's in the it's you know, it's in the it's in the cultural zeitgeist. Like we all, you know what I mean? Like it's yeah, it's fine, but it is kind of a mouthful, so I am gonna keep calling them lycanthropes. And also anytime I hear the word therian, I just think about the therian forms of the the gen five legendary genies. Then I think about VGC, and it's like it's not and then I didn't slowly morph into Lewin's Pokemon. Yeah, and then it turns into and then it turns into me talking about Pokemon. I didn't play, I didn't play VGC during the the Landorus Therian era, but I really hope I just I just gave someone like a like a little shiver. I really hope I did just now. Anyway, so some materials distinguish lycanthropes into categories based on when or how I guess you could say they became lycanthropes. Um and the consequences of those differences are often different from book to book. There's a lot of there's a lot of like you know, there's a lot of like, you know, one thing I'll say, like, oh, this is how this is, you know, and uh so on and so forth. And then like the next time you'll see lycanthropes discussed in like mainline material, it'll be like, no, we're gonna throw something really weird in here. And then the next time it's like, no, you know, we're doing this again. Um, so there's a lot of like this is a there's a lot of weird, there's a lot of weird stuff in here. Right. Um, which I guess tracks because we are talking about, you know, people transforming into animals, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yeah, like the whole aspect of people transforming into animals is just kind of a little weird in general.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, we even though I did describe it as normal earlier, but you know, whatever. Um so those who are born to lycanthrope parents are referred to as true or natural lycanthropes depending right depending on the material, you know, but it's the same, same vibe. They're the true bloods. Yeah, yeah. There there are some there are some some some modules and and things that do get a little just get a little weird about a little eugenic y.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yeah. Werewolf eugenics?

SPEAKER_02 21:34

We'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

We'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Oh I don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

We'll get there. I also don't like that, but okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Don't don't worry. It's it it it's fine. We'll get there.

SPEAKER_05 21:44

Um we'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

In some cases, lycanthropes can produce full lycanthrope offspring with normal humans. It kind of depends. In a lot of cases, it's kind of not explicitly mentioned, but in some modules they go out of their way to say, like, oh yeah. If they have a kid with um, you know, a human, this is what happens. So sometimes it's one pair, it can be one parent, sometimes it has to be both, sometimes a weird third or fourth thing will happen. But uh, so uh you know suspicious. It's fine. It's not fine. Um, but in some materials, only true lichen throps can infect another creature with their bite, and also in some cases, they can do so with other natural weapons, you know, from like claw attacks or whatever, um, like a tusk attack in the case of a werebore, that sort of thing. And I do think that the uh the instances where they discuss the mechanism of it are pretty interesting because I believe in in like Greyhawk or not Greyhawk, including Greyhawk, but starting in like white box set, it's based on like the percentage of your HP that is is dealt to you and damaged by like a lycanthrope as to whether or not you become infected. Um, and sometimes it's it's described as being specifically in the saliva, uh, which is why I'm gonna be like, I can actually kind of wrap my head around that because it it's sort of like a sense.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

Well, yeah, I meant specifically the HP thing because it's sort of like if you have enough vitality left over to fight off the infection.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah. Um, okay. See, putting it like that, okay. Yeah, that I can I can wrap my head around that.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yeah. And it's fun because it it does get down to the very granular of like, you know, if it's like over 50%, or essentially that for every uh hit point of of damage, it increases the likelihood of infection by like one percent or something, you know? Yeah, which is fun. I love when they get really granular about stuff like that. When we get into it like super hardcore percentages, right? Like it's like there's a 15% chance for this 30% chance thing to happen.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

If there's one thing you know I love about DD, it's math.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Right. Yes, exactly. You love math. Okay, well, Lou and you and you love math. I mean, it's fine, it's okay. You I have a literally I have a platonic relationship with math.

SPEAKER_04 24:07

Count cards for a living.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

I do.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

That makes it sound like you gamble like you cheat gambling for a living.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

No, I'm I mean, maybe I do. Maybe maybe that's my side hustle. It's not in some materials. True lycanthropes are also kind of described as being essentially less burdened by their lycanthropic nature as infected lycanthropes, but that's normally the the verbiage kind of used to describe people who have been infected with lycanthropy and then turn into a where creature. Right. So, you know, for example, true lycanthropes might not be compelled to transform during a full moon, they might have a higher chance to like retain their human intelligence when in beast form, so on and so forth. Um so infected lycanthropes are often uh completely unable to transmit the disease to other creatures, which is nice. That means if you're if someone in your party gets infected, um, you're only at risk of being mauled to death um periodically. Instead of not also being turned into a werewolf. So there's that. So there's that. Yeah, glass, glass half full or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 25:18

So I guess the infection only has like a I can't remember what that exact the half-life. No, that's something else. That that is something else. That is for radioactive materials. That's something else. Um and is it an R naught? It an infectability rating. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Sure. Let's go with that. Yeah, I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah, that sounds that sounds right. No, I like half-life better. You like half-life better. Okay, a half-life of one. Yeah. Oh, or like um, oh goodness, I learned a term recently because I've been watching a lot of I've been watching a lot of a lot of videos um from a YouTube channel called Clint's Reptile Room where he talks about. Yeah. There's a thing to to measure basically the rate of like the potency of venom to the point where it kills like 50% of like envenomated lab mice or whatever. I don't remember what it is though. Um yeah, I don't remember what it's called, but uh wear snakes. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Where's where snakes?

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Also, which I think this is this is really this is really lame. And it's so inconsistent that in a lot of cases where it's really hammered in, it feels kind of pointless because then they either change it or don't mention it in like the next book. Um, but in a lot of cases, only specifically humans can become lycanthropes. Um, like they they specifically say that demi-humans die if they contract lycanthropy and is not cured.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

That is interesting. Which is so lame. I mean, uh, don't get me wrong, I think it's lame, but I also think that it's it could be interesting if it were followed through on.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Right. Like, huh? But also, like, I just I just really like the idea of like a gnome or a half link attracting lycanthropy. And then they're just they're just a tiny wolf, they're just like a small, they just they turn into like a rabid corgi, like fuck, dude. Oh god. Like they just turn into a rabid corgi, like, come on. Um and there's never there's not really ever a good reason given as to why that that is. Um it just simply is, it just kind of simply is, which you'll notice is a theme. You don't say, and it's also I think it's also especially lame because in a lot of instances, including ones where they're very specifically like no demi-humans, and various natural animals can become lycanthropes, also, so just like a dog or something.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

If I were to remake this, I would probably pick like a couple of different like demi-humans to have an a lycan lycanthropic immunity, and then the rest can yeah, because like for example, like like dwarves having an immunity to lycanthropy.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

That makes so much sense because they're naturally resistant to like poison and disease and stuff. That makes sense to me. But maybe like like tieflings or something like that, but it does feel lame to me that it's like okay, like the party's half elf can't become a werewolf, but like their dog, like the mascot, like the mascot could become a werewolf. Yeah, like like you're telling me, which this is my this is my favorite Baldur's Gate 3 fan theory, but you're telling me Shadow Heart can't be a werewolf, but Scratch could be a werewolf.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

And also, isn't her dad also a half elf, anyway? Like, I don't think that he's a full elf.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Is he a he's he's a he's an elf, I'm pretty sure. Because he's still all young and and smooth looking, and his and her mom is like older, young and smooth looking. I wouldn't say young, he looks pretty middle-aged. I mean, listen, it's been a little while, okay, and Shadow Heart's story makes me sad. And also, like, fuck no, I haven't gotten back to Act Three anytime recently. The game is long as hell. Anyway, uh, so a couple more less less referenced categories, kind of less important, that are referenced in the monster manual, monstrous manual, sorry, are induced lycanthropes, um, which includes individuals that essentially undergo animal transformations as a result of magical items. Oh, okay such as uh swan maze, which are women that have like I think cloaks that turn them into swans, which is cool. And also apparently there is an artifact, I didn't write it down. There's an artifact called the cloak of the manta ray, and all it all the descriptions I saw basically describe it giving you like water breathing abilities when you like wear it and pull the hood up. But given that it's included in this discussion about like anthropy, I was like, are we looking at a wear manta ray situation?

SPEAKER_01 30:02

A rare mantaway.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Rare mantaway, a rare manta ray. It's about to start not sounding like a real word either.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

Aware see flap flap.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah, yeah. That's the technical term, and another one being a cursed lycanthrope, which refers to those afflicted specifically by the cursive lycanthropy spell, which is a temporary effect that triggers once a month during the full moon until the victim saves against the spell, which is really funny.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

And you only get one save a month, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yeah, I'm sorry, as a DM, I'm not keeping track of that.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

It is it is really funny. Because then you have to start keeping track of the moon cycles, just like it is really funny to imagine that like you're in a fight against some fuck-ass warlock or something, and he casts some he casts some kind of spell on you, and you but you don't know what it is, and then like two weeks later, there's there's just a werewolf, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Suddenly you're sleeping next to a werewolf. You're like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Like as real.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

God help if he was on like fucking watch that night too when he performed this werewolf.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Oh god. He just he just like cut he just like comes back, you know, after the transformation and he's just like killed all of his friends. I'm I was saying that like it was a joke. It's not really it wouldn't really be bad. It wouldn't really be funny. Um conceptually, though.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Um conceptually, conceptually, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Right. And I don't I don't know if this spell even still exists because this is from like the monsters manual, but you know, curses. And there's also like there's lots of there's lots of curses floating around places like Barovia, you know, that that can that do stuff like that. So lycanthropes in most iterations have some form of resistance or immunity to normal weaponry, you know, the whole they can only be harmed by silver thing. Right. In some cases, these attributes only apply to their animal and or hybrid forms, but in some cases, even their human form is affected, um, which can lead to situations where a person might be exposed as a lycanthrope because they are unable to comfortably touch silver, wolf spaying, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 32:17

Right. Um silver allergy. Yeah, my niece is allergic to silver.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Allergies are not a thing in DD see.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

Or maybe my niece is a werewolf.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

It was like a half moon last night, I think. Taylor, where were you two weeks ago?

SPEAKER_04 32:38

Why would I have any knowledge of are you uh is the implication here that I infected my niece?

SPEAKER_02 32:45

No, just the just the ear werewolf.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Or some other kind of were creature.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

Oh, so we're we're like we're we're the true blood ones.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

Which is why it would matter for me to be a were creature.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Right, right, right, right, right. Which I think it's also very interesting because um a couple different books like describe the human aversion to this thing, to these things, not as like necessarily something that actually damages them, but specifically they use the word psychosomatic, which I think was is very is very interesting for them to do. So it's like a even even in their human form, like knowing that it's not gonna hurt them. It's it's like the thing about like they still have like an aversion to it. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know how like sometimes you're like if you've just used the stove or something, even if you know that it's like been long enough, like it's been long enough, you still might like have a moment where you like don't want to touch it for a second, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um, I get that, which is very interesting. So the first, as near as I can tell, the first sort of vehicle that was really introduced for lycanthropes is player characters, because prior to this, in like Greyhawk, Blackmoor, um, white box, it was basically like it it was like it wasn't basically it was like explicitly laid out that if a player character gets infected with lycanthropy and you know fully undergoes the the the infection process, the transformation process, that they are now a DM-controlled character. Right. Okay, yeah. So in Dragon Magazine issue 24, which was published in 1979, there was an article called Another Look at Lycanthropy. And for some reason the word lycanthropy is in all caps, so it sounds like it's Lycanthropy. Another look at lycanthropy, lycanthropy, which is written by Joe Mattson, goes into like a lot of like I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna read off like every one of these, but it goes into a lot of like different mechanics essentially as to how the infection or the condition, I guess you could say, can express itself, including a potential scenario. And these are all given percentage chances, by the way. It's like A through, let me see, it's like A through G, and they're all given like percentage chances on like the likelihood of you know your symptoms uh manifesting in this way, including but not limited to one instance where your character can be infected with lycanthropy, but will stay in their human form, but have like the animal intelligence capacity. Um varying from only during a full moon to like all the time, which is very funny to imagine that you contract lycanthropy and then you're just a wolf, and then no, but but like but then it's literally on all levels except physically, you are a wolf because you're just a person, you just still look like a person, you have the capabilities.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

But you have the faculties, you have the faculties and intelligence.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Which is really funny, which is so funny to me.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

I also really like this wolf software on on human hardware, on human hardware.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

I also really like how um this article handles alignments because we're gonna talk about this later, but all of the different types of wear creatures have specific alignments that they either some modules are really strict about it, and some of them are, you know, they they tend towards these. And it has a fun thing where, you know, say you have a chaotic aligned player character who gets infected with a lawful variety of lycanthropy, which is a funny sentence. Um, it essentially breaks it down to a percentage chance where your character has a 20% chance to remain lawful, a 20% chance to become chaotic, and a 60% chance to become neutral. And this this change can also be such that it's like all the time, or it can be only, you know, when they're like transformed or whatever. Um but I think that's really interesting because I feel like it's a it's a good it's a good thing to where like it matters, but it also isn't just like a fast and loose, like, you know, if your like if your paladin gets infected, your he's just fucked. You like it just cannot do anything, you know what I mean? But yeah, it's not like that.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

It also adds a good vehicle for like role play.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yeah, yeah, definitely. But it isn't just like hard line, like if you were in alignment, you know, now there's like there's like no chance, and also like any of your character motives or like role play related stuff or whatever is just completely off the rails. But yeah, it's a good, it's a good little it's a good thing for Lycanthropes' player characters in a way that does still feel very older editions of DD to me.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

Yeah, I agree. So, um Uh-huh. I can always tell when we're entering some fuck shit because um okay, well we'll we'll we'll get to it.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

I don't really want an isolated soundbite of me saying um the thing I was about to say. So um so there isn't um there isn't a lot of explanation given for for the origin of lycanthropy in a lot of modules. Like there's not a central legend or whatever, as you'll often find is the case in DD with when it comes to stuff like this, or at least it was with vampires. I don't know. I don't know why. But some lycanthropes in the Forgotten Realms worship a god called Malar, who is an evil god of wildlife and hunting that used to be part of the gods of fury led by Talos. I think I don't know much about them, but from what I can tell, the uh the name is pretty self-explaining.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

They are a very interesting, like I'll I'll I'd be lying if I said they weren't on my short list for like research topics.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Right. I I kind of envision him as a little bit of like a hearseine like figure. Yes, but Malar eventually became an exarch of the nature god Sylvanus after the spell plague. Okay. Um so he's he's there, but it doesn't it doesn't seem like he created lycanthropes really. He he just liked them. I just think he just liked the lycanthropes, yeah. Oh my god, they do they they worship him sometimes, especially those who kind of tend towards more evil alignments. Good or neutral lycanthropes often worship Saluna, and they're uh I don't know, uh DD does this quite a bit, but there are vague references to the new to the notion that Saluna created lycanthropes, which makes sense, it makes sense because you know, the moon. Um, to the extent where the condition is sometimes referred to as being uh kissed by Saluna. I think that's awesome. I have heard of that before, yeah. Yeah, or the condition is called Saluna's Kiss. But as as far as I could tell, and admittedly, I didn't look into like the Saluna side of things until like towards the end, because that was something I was like, oh, I'll look at it later, and then I forgot about it until like the very end. Right. Um, but I don't think it's ever really kind of expanded on. Um, and it's also something that it feels like it's it's referenced more on Saluna side of things. Like, you know, you'll you'll see a list of like her her portfolio and like her favorite creatures and stuff like that. Yeah, and it'll just say like lycanthropy, lycanthropes, yeah, but then like not really, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 40:08

Like Justice for Saluna and Lycanthropes.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

But then it's like, but then it's not really like as far as I can tell, there's not really like a central myth where she like did create lycanthropes. And also given that that she's like a more good aligned god, and given how a lot of a lot of lycanthropes feel about the whole thing, it does seem like a an interesting thing for for a god to I mean there's some good homebrew potential there for like yeah to have been a gift initially and then be twisted.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yeah, or like you know, the the the idea that maybe there was at some point a natural component to lycanthropy and then kind of the disease aspect spun off, spun off, foreshadowing is a literary device.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

Oh um, I I was about to say it kind of that idea kind of reminds me of how like a lot of uh Europeans have autoimmune diseases because of the fact that they were able to they they had the immune system to survive the Black Death. Oh, okay. And so they had Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so basically the thing that sort of saved them ended up over time sort of evolving into something that has basically negative consequences, yeah. Which is likely my ancestry given where I came from and the fact that I have an autoimmune disease.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Well, maybe that would be good news for you. Um, since apparently the bubonic plague is making a comeback.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

So oh good.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Oh, well, hey, yeah, you might your immune system might be strong enough to do that. So in the everyone prepare your booze, in the fourth edition Monster Manual 2, which was released in 2009. Y'all, we're barely gonna talk about fourth edition here. Don't worry. Thank goodness. A nature check reveals that lycanthropes are reported or reported, rumored to have been created by Malora, who is a I'm about to say a bunch of words that I don't even I don't even know. Um, a god of the albionic pantheon, um, known as the wild mother. So again, a very, you know, everyone I say wild mother, like I'm sure you have an image in your head and it's probably correct. Um and are affected by the moon and silver because of a feud between her and Sehanin, who is a um she's an elven goddess. Yeah, there's a specific Selderine. Seldarine. That's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_04 42:36

If I recall correctly, so specifically became uh Corellan's consort after Lolf fell.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Yeah. However, there is one more detailed origin story uh for Lycanthropy, and it is it is for a specific setting. Um, so it's not necessarily really fully applicable to DD in general, but I found it interesting and I really wanted to talk about it. Okay, but we are gonna talk about that after we take a break. Damn, got him. Hey everybody, thank you for checking out our episode on Lycanthropy. You can also check out Fanroll Dice. We have an affiliate partnership with them. You can use code Dungeonpedia for 10% off your entire order at fanrolleddice.com. You can also check out our Patreon if you would like to support us directly. It is at Dungeonpedia.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

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SPEAKER_01 43:29

Yes. Excited.

SPEAKER_04 43:31

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SPEAKER_01 43:37

Yeah. Oh.

SPEAKER_04 43:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

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SPEAKER_04 43:57

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unknown 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

And a big ol' thank you to Alexander Nakarata for our theme song, Blacksmith, as always.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

And with that, I want to get back to it.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Right. So you're gonna continue to tell us about lycanthropes and something else weird that you came across.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Yeah, so um I'll do we'll we'll you'll it'll it'll it'll it'll unfold. Um okay. Um so Night Howlers is the name of a module that is focused on lycanthropy and takes place in the Mistara universe, which like I'm so I don't I I don't know much about beyond what I read in this book.

SPEAKER_04 45:08

It's it always makes me think of Mystra.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Yeah, no, I do read it as Mistra, which activates my activates my fight or flight response after Baldur's Gate 3. Um dude.

SPEAKER_04 45:19

Which is so wild because you were such a mystery.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

I know I was such a stan. I was such a stan.

SPEAKER_04 45:26

And I still like three.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

I still like her old, I still like her old work, but so obviously this means that uh the so this the section in here that tells the story of the spread of lycanthropy is called the true and actual history of lycanthropy, which is really funny. Um, and obviously, like I said, it's not so there will never be another history or yeah, as of as opposed it's all covered, as opposed to the fake and uh non-existent history of lycanthropy.

SPEAKER_04 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Like obviously, like I said, it's not applicable to every DD setting in general, and I also don't have full context for um Mistara. Mistara. So, like, you know, a lot of the place names and things like that kind of did go over my head a little bit. Um, but I still want to talk about it because it's very uh interesting, is a word I would use for it. And it's also more detailed than you know, a lot of other stuff we get. So the section is framed as being a scholarly letter uh written by a scholar mage named Niccolo Galateo, which is a name.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Cool name.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

That is which is a which is a which is a scholar mage ass name, if I've ever heard. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

That's like it's almost like Galileo Galilee.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah, yeah. And this this scholarly letter is bemoaning the inaccurate history of lycanthropy being taught in academia. Oh my god. Which is very funny.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

Okay, so this is like the most characterly correct character correct article I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Yeah. So so in this setting, the original lycanthrope, um the like yeah, take it again, because the word lycanthrope, similar to where whatever, is also has also stopped seeming like a word. So the original lycanthropes of the setting were clans that comprised both outsiders to Mistara, or at least the continent that they're I'm sorry, guys, I don't fucking know. Um, but it comprised both outsiders and parts of the native population. Um, the former includes the clans Padfoot and Woodwarder, who were natural-born tiger and wolf shifters, and the latter includes the followers of flame who were natural-born boar shifters. So the the former were tiger and werewolves entered the picture about 2,000 years before the module is set to take place, at the equivalent of like a thousand, what would be a thousand BCE for them? They used a different, you know, it's called something different, but it's essentially like they had a, you know, they had an an AD moment. So they entered the picture about 2,000 years before the module takes place, and they were fleeing the destruction of their home, which was a place known as Alphacia.

SPEAKER_04 48:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Uh thus these families uh came to be known collectively as the Alphacian families.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

And you are you sure that this isn't a recent Wattpad fanfic?

SPEAKER_02 48:30

It's very alpha heavy. It is spelled like it is spelled like the word alpha. Alpha. Yeah, alfacia. Um yeah. Um anyway. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I I'm sorry. It made me it made me laugh when I read it.

SPEAKER_04 48:49

And it's like I mean, understandably, because I'm looking at this and I'm like, I love it. I typically try not to criticize like I'm clowning right now.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

It is really funny.

SPEAKER_04 49:04

That is wild.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Yeah, like they were just like fuck it, werewolves.

SPEAKER_04 49:08

The the in the kingdom of alpha. In the kingdom of alpha. So I mean of alpha, you are an omega. Oh my god. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

In the kingdom, in the kingdom of of okay, sorry. I I got too close to okay. Um get beta. We gotta say, we gotta we gotta stop before I like collectively refer to all of our all of our listeners as beta cucks. No. Absolutely not. So these these early shapeshifters were of kind of the variety that we talked about earlier of of those who were who were fairly untroubled by their nature. So they could transform at will. They were unaffected by the cycles of the moon, wolf's bane, that kind of thing. But they did not have the natural immunities that were common to like our idea of lycanthropes, right? Right. Additionally, like they they they filled a very different space culturally than in a lot of other settings. They were, you know, kind of revered and and honored for their abilities instead of being sort of alphas. Yeah, because they're because they're alphas, duh. You have to respect the alpha.

SPEAKER_04 50:25

Yeah, you have to respect the alpha. I will try and contain myself.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

You will fail. So, you know, but but they they they filled a very different cultural niche as opposed to being feared and hunted, you know, regarded as monsters, so on and so forth. Right. So about 600 years before the module is set to take place, the alpha wizards uh began conducting experiments related to their shape-shifting abilities. So one series of these experiments on children didn't didn't really specify what the didn't really specify what the ethical protocols there were. But one one series of these experiments done on children created lycanthropes who could heal their injuries when they shifted from animal to human form and vice versa. But this ability has itself been lost to time by the time the module happens. But they had still not achieved their ultimate goal of making it so that the ability could be granted to any given non-shapeshifting adult person. Um the ability to shape shift.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

They they wanted to invent like enthropy. Yeah, they wanted the okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

They wanted to spread the the the alpha juice.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Um they they do they know that the alpha is okay?

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Um instead you said the alpha juice, which was a choice, which is also not okay, which was also not okay of me, and I apologize for that.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

It's okay because none of this is okay. What you were describing is essentially, as we've already said it, it I mean it's werewolf eugenics.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

Okay, so we haven't the virus isn't even under the picture. Oh, um, so these uh like I don't know the nature of the experiments they were doing before this point. Like, I don't know if it was just magic rituals or what the fuck ever.

SPEAKER_04 52:12

I want to say, by the way, when I made that joke, I hadn't looked at any of your notes. I haven't even pulled them up. I only knew that we were doing werewolves.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Yeah, I yeah. So um this all this all changed. They're sort of circling the drain with regard to trying to spread shape-shifting powers, you know, which which in fairness, in fairness, I know that's not a good start when we've been when we've been talking about a thing that is literally jazz, but I can understand why someone would be like, hey, turning into a wolf is really cool. What if we made it so that other people who want to turn into wolves can turn into wolves? I yeah, that that that that starts and ends there though. Starts and ends there though.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

I was about to be like, and this is the point that Loon gets us canceled.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Right, yeah, no, I know. No, Lewin can get himself canceled. I I yeah um yeah, we need a clean audio soundpad of me saying I do not support werewolf eugenics. So we go uh their whole you know, sort of stall they were at with their research changed when a mage named Kyvan Whitehair, which is a name, pioneered the use of a magically altered virus to pass the shape-shifting powers onto subjects. Truly, what could go wrong?

SPEAKER_01 53:31

I mean, nothing. This is a solid plan with no possible repercussions.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

Well, Jurassic Park.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

As so often does happen in uh the Jurassic Park movies, this virus uh broke containment. It broke out of the lab. They literally also called it a lab, uh, which makes me wonder as to the the set like setting vibes, as to the setting. You know, actually I kind of told that out of order. Um, but first it was observed that those infected by this virus that they specifically engineered, which is a good idea, that people infected by this virus did find their transformations to be under the influence of the moon, and they also succumbed to bestial instincts while transformed, which as I said has not had not been observed by natural-born lycanthropes in this setting, which is bad enough before it broke containment. Um, so then it broke containment and it got worse over the course of two months. I believe it said 5,000 people were infected. Or I don't remember if it was specifically people because it also it also mutated to to whereby it could be carried in animal populations. Oh, okay. As we discussed earlier, sometimes animals can get lycanthropy. That happened. And also it seems that the what they were essentially trying to engineer was specifically the the wereetiger property. So that was uh mutated into a variety of other types of animals, including werewolves, werebears, yada yada yada.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Um this was just like they were trying to create a dominant race.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

Yeah, no, they were they were huge in it. Yeah, they they were. And and and also there, there's there is a lot of like there is a lot of like ooh, pure alphacian blood type stuff. Again, I didn't, again, like I didn't I didn't read the whole thing. And and I actually unironically, when it comes to these specific different types of like the world building for the different types of like where creatures, I really love a lot of the things this book does, but there is a lot of like there's a lot of very like head shaky stuff about it.

SPEAKER_04 55:48

But I will say is like at the beginning And then we made a virus. It seems like these are not portrayed as good ideas.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

No, they're not portrayed as like a good idea.

SPEAKER_04 55:57

Yeah, okay. Um or even necessarily having noble ideals.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

Yeah, they were like it really the tone really does feel like they were kind of just fucking around.

SPEAKER_04 56:08

Okay, so um so anyway maybe it could have stood to be a little bit more like um they should have had like opposed to their their ideas.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

They should have had like one more, they should have had one more go-around, they should have had like one more table read.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

Just like an editor's side note on the page, just being like, hey, by the way, just like asterisk.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

Like, hey, the these are not good.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

Uh don't don't engineer, don't do a werewolf eugenics. Don't do, don't do this.

SPEAKER_04 56:37

Please don't let me name this episode werewolf eugenics.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

Don't you know you need to you need to name this episode uh the fake and unexistent history of like anthropomy. Um so like it shit got fucked up. Every rung on the food chain was getting infected and infecting each other. It was a whole thing, lots of different wear animals were popping up, but eventually it was slowed and mostly contained by powerful magical spells. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

And I mean, that seems like the only way that you're gonna be able to stop that.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Right. Yeah, and the uh and the uh the Alfacian Empire established the Alphacian Center for Disease Control. What they just used the they just used the isolated center for disease control. Or so there's like a lot of fun ways you could abbreviate it. You could just uh A C D C. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

A C D C. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

Yeah, so they literally made the C D C. Um the A C D C. My bad. Um, yeah. Well what? Yeah, yeah. And there's okay, there's a lot more stuff that happened. There's a lot, there's a lot more stuff that happened.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

It's really hard. Like, again, I try very hard not to critique writing because that's not what this is about, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:02

But they should have they should have had like one like I don't know if there was if just nobody was brave enough to be like, hey, we maybe shouldn't basically call this the C D C. And abbreviate abbreviate it to the A C D C. No, they didn't actually do that. Okay, they didn't actually do that. That was me. Okay. That was me.

SPEAKER_04 58:23

That's fine. That's fine. That was me. But the but the Alphacian Center for Disease Control is actually what it's called. Yeah, it's called the Alphacian Center for Disease Control.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

Wow. They couldn't call it the Alphacian Center for Lycanthropic Studies, yeah, or like for the Alphacian lycanthropic studies. Like no, they just said the CDC. So anyway, there's that. Yeah. Like, so this is probably the most detailed explanation for the origins of like and okay. Here's the thing there's a lot of things about it. Okay, stay with me. It's interesting. It's interesting. There's a lot of like I I I like the idea of there being a a set of natural kind of components to lycanthropy that then kind of takes a disease form. Right. Like, I like that. I think it's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 59:18

And I I do I do think that the idea of like in general, I'm a big fan of like the Jurassic Park hubris, yeah, the scientific hubris. Yeah. But like, I don't know, maybe it's just the way it comes across through the writing.

SPEAKER_02 59:35

It is it it it is very like it is very much one of those moments where like you read something, they just throw something at you and don't like there's no further expanded thoughts on that. And then you you take a second to be like deal with it. Yeah, you just take a second to be like, wait a minute, that sounds like eugenics. Is that eugenics? Wait, what? Yeah, and then it moves on to saying some other crazy shit.

SPEAKER_04 59:58

And then I and I'm still not even sure what kind of a setting this is, and I'm going to do nothing to help elucidate that for myself, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

Yeah. So um, and it's also like it's kind of it's kind of not exactly helped by the the fact that the tone, because like I said, this is meant to be a a scholarly letter for like a disgruntled academic. So the tone of it is very like it's a little bit not smarmy exactly, but I mean, okay, you know looking at I mean it was released in '92, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:29

Yeah. So that's around the time where a lot of supplements had sort of a too cool for school vibe.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

No, I can, yeah, I can see that. It's a little bit like it's a little bit like faux, faux edgy kind of.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

Yeah. Um, which when you put it that way, it actually kind of recontextualizes a lot of the uh entries about lycanthropes in the monstrous manual for me, because I was placed in 93. Now I think some of them were from earlier stuff, because you know, the monstrous manual is like a compilation of all the compendiums. Because a lot of them are just very like they kind of say some wild shit, and then it's just like, what? Yeah. You just kind of have to stay with it. So that's that's kind of the we're finished with like kind of the overview of lycanthropy here. Okay. So we're gonna we're gonna talk about the specific different types of lycanthropes. So well, five of them. There's there's a lot more than the big five. The big five.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:26

Um the typically medium-sized creature five.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Yeah, and then there's were rats, too. They can they can hang out. So we're gonna start with werewolves, which are obviously the most iconic and also nominally appropriate lycanthropes. So in the white box set, werewolves are probably the weakest of the lycanthropes introduced with the highest read worse AC of five, the lowest hit dice, four, and they had an alignment of neutral/slash chaos. Nope. All of the lycanthropes in this iteration were described as living in small family groups of either packs of like two to four members or family groups of five to eight members, which of course included like the parents and then children of varying ages.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

I almost said, isn't a pack a family group, but then I remember that this was all written prior to like the recontextualization of what a wild pack would be.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

Yeah. Don't even get me don't even get me started.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:22

Yeah, the recontextualization happened like fairly recently in the grand scheme of like uh science, natural sciences.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Yeah, oh shit. I did not know that.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:31

Yeah, for a long time it was it's a whole thing. Don't get me started.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

It's a whole thing. It's a whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Yeah, it's it's it's enough that we didn't start talking about that when we were all saying the word alpha like 10 times earlier. We were making fun of it though, which helped, right? Yeah, as of the advanced dungeons and dragons uh monster manual, which was published in 1977, their alignment changes to chaotic evil, and it actually remains that way for the rest of mainline publication, with the exception of fourth edition, wherein they were just evil, because fourth edition. Fourth edition made sense. Fourth edition, fourth edition stuff. Um whatever in source materials where a link between the appearance of the human and animal forms of lycanthropes is mentioned. Werewolves are usually described as kind of being the most diverse, which is to say that like a werewolf might have the same color like hair and fur, like between the transformations, but their their being a werewolf has less of an effect on things like their build or like their general kind of mean as it does for other lycanthropes. Um I'm sorry, mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

Just like their vibe.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:39

You know?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

I'm I'm a redneck, I don't need these weird words.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

I mean, in fairness, it has it has four letters. Um, but no, just kind of like weird, not big. Just kind of like you did say weird, not big. That's true. That's true. It kind of just means like their general like vibe. Their general, like someone's general appearance. Like you might say that someone has like a a friendly mean or a a wolfish mean, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:07

Um basically uh essentially hold on. It is kind of just vibe. And then Golden Retriever.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, got it. Um you know, but but in the case of werewolves, it's kind of treated as like their being a werewolf doesn't really affect as much how their human form looks as it does for other types of lycanthropes. So like they can they could kind of just be anybody. So um werewolves in particular have a lot of really wild, it's probably because they are the most like iconic lycanthropes, so they're consistently covered a lot, but they have a lot of really wild footnotes that only appear in like one given entry, and they're like dropped without really any further commentary, and then the come the next source book not mentioned. Right. Um, so for example, the monstrous manual states that there are three distinct types of werewolves, which is to say, like uh, like each of these types of werewolves has a unique animal transformation. So it's not like one person, one werewolf can transform into like these three different forms. It's like uh say the this isn't this isn't the distinction, but like, for example, it's like, oh, the the northern werewolf has this and the southern werewolf has this, and then whatever. So I'm just gonna read it directly. Quote, one has fangs, a furred body, a tail, wolf-like legs, and lupine features, parenthetical, but without the snout. What another has a very wolf like face and body with human hands and is easily mistaken for a wolf when down on all fours. And the third uh secondary form is that of a huge wolf as big as a bear. Okay, well, okay, okay, these are not, these are not. Treated differently in like like combat stats or like just distinguished by their physical features and that's just yeah, and there's no just the flavor for no reason, yeah. And there's no there's no like well this one is from this region or like this one looks like this because of XYZ. They just kind of throw that out there. And I'm sitting here imagining an American werewolf in London situation, except the face is just fully human, which is really funny. Or like a wolf with like a wolf with hands.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

But you know, without the snout.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Yeah, like it it like but like the or like the other one, like it like sits up to like do like a cute dog bag, except it has it has human hands. Like I don't know why it fucking sends me. I don't like um also from the monsters manual. If a werewolf mates with a human woman, the children will take after their father in temperament, being quote, violent, combative, and prone to mental illness, unquote. Also, despite being completely human, these children have a 10% chance of spontaneously transforming into true werewolves each year from the beginning of their adolescence.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:18

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

Like, okay, I'm supposed to just I'm supposed to just deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:25

Also, men can be werewolves.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

Uh no, that's just kind of the the example given. They don't really talk about what happens if like a human man were to mate with a female werewolf. Because they talk about they're like regular babies.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

You know, I'm guessing actually they they might, honestly, I don't remember. I just wrote that one down because violent, combative, and prone to mental has a has a 10% chance of transforming spontaneously into a werewolf.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:55

Okay. My experience with like older DD modules tells me that it's either one of two things, the exact same thing in rever but in reverse, or because the fact that the woman who carried them was a werewolf, they just come out as werewolves.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

Yeah. Okay. I mean, yeah, that I could I could see that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

Okay, yeah, no, it's not mentioned. The reverse is not mentioned. So I guess it's just vibes. Yeah, so that like that's kind of the monstrous manual, really was was on some stuff. Um also the werewolves in Night Howlers, or at least again, I didn't I didn't look that much into the setting. I'm so sorry. Or at least the biggest community of them, as far as I'm led to believe, all have French accents. Um, because there's a there's a there's a there's a because okay, for one, there's a like, you know, I'll say a lot a lot of modules have like pronunciation glossaries, you know. Yeah, um, because there's a lot of fantasy words. The one in Night Howlers is mostly just actual French words. That's amazing. Like, you know, uh like there's a lot of there's a lot of like lou garus, things like that, and all of these French names for places and things are like related to werewolves in the setting. And also each section for like each specific type of lycanthrope in Night Howlers has like a a little in-character expository paragraph that is written from the perspective of like, you know, you have just been bitten and transformed by a lycanthrope. So it's kind of written from the perspective of that lycanthrope telling you what the deal is.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

And the expository paragraph for the werewolf section is written out the same way that I wrote the dialogue for the spy in my TF2 fanfiction, then from when I was a teenager, which is to say the accent is written out with like the S's on the end of words are like Z's, you know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

Uh okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:02

Very um bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

Yeah, very fringe.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:06

Very fringe, very bad. I am so sorry to the entirety of France. I'm not, but yeah, like Well, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and my enemy is the British.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

Fair point, fair enough. But yeah, like it's it's it's the it's the accent written out. It's very funny. So yeah, today I learned werewolves are French.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

All werewolves are French.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:27

Yep. This just in next, we're gonna talk about were boars. So uh were boars appear alongside werewolves in the white box set, and they sport a slightly lower slash better AC of four, one higher hit die, which I'm sure there's a there's a distinction here. It's written as four plus one, which is also known as five. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:50

I'm sure also known as five, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

I'm sure there's I'm sure there's an old DD reason why it's four plus one instead of five. But I did read that and I was like, okay. And they also have an alignment of neutral slash chaos. Kind of as we go down the list, essentially they kind of get stronger, at least specifically for their introduction in the white box set, but also kind of like generally like you know, they they kind of get stronger as we go up until we get to wear rats, but they're special. Wareboars remained neutral in alignment relatively consistently until fourth edition, where they were reclassified as evil. And as a fifth edition, they are neutral evil. Okay, whatever. But regardless of alignment, they are described as being gruff and ill-tempered, uh, preferring to keep to themselves, but in the occasion that you can actually create a friendly bond with a werebore, they are incredibly loyal allies, and they also like truffles, which I think is cute. So uh we talked earlier about werewolves kind of not necessarily having a uh often having a lot of links between their human and animal forms, like appearance-wise. It's very different for werebores. Um, the human forms of werebors are usually described as being like stocky, like muscular, you know, with uh short and stiff hair that is similar to like bristly boar fur. I like it. Their tempers lend well towards a barbarian-esque combat style, even when in human form. And they sometimes find themselves allied with orcs because they're they're very much like they don't tend to live in human settlements, even especially for like lycanthropes, which obviously on average don't usually like to live in very populated human settlements, but especially werebores, they're like, nah. Nah. Nah, they're not they're not a big fan of people, which is like mood. Same. I forgot to mention this earlier because I forgot to write this earlier in my notes. But in a lot of uh cases, lycanthropes have a sort of similar animal calling ability to vampires, but it is, you know, specifically rever uh reserved for animals, yeah, of their of their wear type. Now, not always. Um but especially for wear boars, the the materials really yo-yo back and forth on whether or not they actually get along with regular boars. Because like in even in some sources that do cite them as being able to call on regular wild boars as like allies in combat, it still says that they like don't like each other and like don't really don't really tend to don't really tend to mingle with them, whereas like werewolves often mingle with regular wolves. Right. Um, but yeah, were boars, were boars also they don't even really like regular boars most of the time, and they also don't really like each other most of the time, which is incredibly relatable. Um next, weretigers. Hell yeah. Also introduced in the white box set. Were tigers have an AC of three, they have five hit dice, distinctly five, not four plus one, just five. Just five, just normal five, and an alignment of neutral slash chaos. Stop me if you've heard that one before. They are neutral in alignment in every edition, except for fourth edition, where they are evil. Are you seeing a pattern? Are you seeing a pattern here? But they are neutral again in fifth edition. Okay. So portrayals of were tigers before third edition describe them as being usually female for some reason, including the monstrous manual, which outright states quote, for various reasons, were tigresses outnumber were tigers five to one. What are those reasons? Damn, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:39

My theory currently, and that I just made up because this is brand new information, is it kind of has to do with like our weird gendered society, yeah, where lions are are boys and tigers are girls. Despite the fact that lionesses are the powerhouse of are the ones who actually do stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:59

They're the powerhouse of the peck, yes, of the parade.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:03

The yeah, whereas the males just like lay around and nap all day. Um yeah, like that's yeah, no, literally, my going theory is just women and cats. Am I right, fellas? And this is further substantiated by um something else that we're gonna talk about in just a sec. Because these specific entries are not, as you've noticed, are not super long. Right. Because a lot of it is kind of the same.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:29

It's a were beast.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:30

It's a yeah. And also, like they kind of like don't change a lot. And also, like a lot of discussions about lycanthropes, like these types of lycanthropes recently have also not necessarily been super detailed. In the fifth edition monster manual, it's like two pages for like all five of them. Where tigers uh human forms are described as taller than average, muscular, and agile. And like honestly, a lot of words were put in to make it to where they weren't just saying like they're all they're all very sexy, but like it was essentially saying that they're all very sexy. Like they're described as having husky voices and rolling their R's, and it's like okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:14

Okay, okay. Um, so I've evolved my position to be it also has to do with fucking cooner behavior. Ah I hate the G word. I know, I'm sorry. It's okay. I couldn't I couldn't think of how I would have described that five years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:31

No, you're you're you're right though. So weretigers have a regal bearing and an interest in the finer things in life. You know, they like to collect gemstones and trinkets and magical artifacts and things, but they also have no trouble roughing it out in the wild. They usually live alone or in small groups with other were tigers. Um and they have a particular affinity, not necessarily for normal tigers, of which I think is of like the A D D monster manual. I think it says they have like a 5% chance to be found like mingling with regular tigers, but they have a particular affinity for just like small regular felines like house cats, which does lead me back to their cats, women and their cats, am I right, guys? Women's women's women's and their cats, women's and their cats, guys. But as of like third edition, this like specifically distinct population imbalance between like male and female were tigers is not really mentioned, which leads me to believe that it is kind of not really a thing. And also like most of the art after the fact, like, you know, portrays like much more like masculine looking characters.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

I was actually just looking at that and I was like, these are all masculine.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:48

Yeah, whereas like before it was like whereas before it was straight up like there's I I'm thinking about it, and there's actually a probably a number of factors at play. Like there's probably just straight up Lola Bunny looking, kind of but like a tiger, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:04

Do you want to be here for the wear tiger part? I would say, you know, tigress from Kung Fu Panda, but Tigris was probably a better portrayal of an anthropomorphic tiger.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:15

Um, there's probably a little bit of um like I can't remember the exact word, but like fetishization of Asian women.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:24

Yeah, probably. There's probably definitely some like some of the older art is a little bit like some of the older art is a little bit like don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:32

The first edition picture is it's wild.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

It's so wild, it's wild. Like she she and also like she is serving um the the one wolf statue. Yeah, you're gonna have to look it up. She's serving the one wolf statue with Romulus and Remus, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:48

Let me see. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

Yeah, it's very strange. It's very, it's a lot. Yeah. So yeah, there's a lot going on in some of the older art. I do respect um having admiration for like a a very large muscular feline woman who could like kill you. I do think that's pretty like I get it. I get it, but some of it was kind of weird. Anyway, were bears.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:14

I've been very excited for were bears.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:15

So were bears are the strongest of the lycanthropes that were introduced in the white box set with an AC of two, which again is very good. Well, pretty good. I don't know. Lower is better. Decent. It's pretty good. Six hit dice and an alignment of law slash neutral. They're they're breaking the they're breaking the mold. Oh so their alignment jumps around quite a bit. They go from their original law slash neutral to chaotic good in the A D D monster manual and the monstrous manual to lawful good in third edition to neutral good in fifth edition. You might wonder, were they also evil in fourth edition, like all the other lycanthropes? I have no theory. Oh because they didn't exist in fourth edition. Oh they just weren't there for some reason. They didn't get invited to the party.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:05

They for the bears were hibernating that year.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:07

They were, yeah, they were hibernating. So they were. Yeah, because it was it was very much like they were like they were all evil. There was no there's no new cool lore, and it was essentially just like we've styled different kinds of combatants, you know. Um, which is just fourth edition. That's like that's fourth edition, y'all know. So werebores human forms are consistently described as being large. Fucking goddamn it. What did I tell y'all? What did I tell y'all? So also I think there's just something about the fact that where bear like it rhymes with itself. Yeah. Like, I don't know. It's hard to say. Um, so were bear's human forms are consistently described as being large, muscular, and her suit, which, like, yeah, fair. Yeah. Um I mean, yeah, that does make sense. Yeah, that tracks with a matching hair and fur color. And it's uh there's also described as being like rare examples of like polar were bears that like you know have like white hair and stuff. Also, when we were talking about kung fu panda, I was like, where panda bear. Oh my god. That I think they they have those in World of Warcraft, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:41

Yes. Um I mean, well, okay, they're not wearing it, they're just normal. Anthropomorphic pandas.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:48

They're just normal pandaria, they're just normal men.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:51

Um well so we're just no, not quite.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:54

They're normal panda men. We're just normal men.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:58

There's Poe's. That's his name, right? Poe? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:03

That's the you know what? Unironically, good movie. Very good movie. So they are also the most consistently described as being able or likely to use weapons in their hybrid form, which leads to this terrifying art of were bears from fifth edition where this big ass were bear is holding a great axe, and specifically they can wield great axes with one hand, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:27

And by the way, his other hand is out like claws.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:31

Yeah, like claws.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:33

Like this man is going to fuck you up. Which is a question of man or bear.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:41

No answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:43

Honestly, though, if this guy's coming at you like this, it's probably your fault because they are neutral goods. So you're probably doing something. You deserved it. You probably deserved it.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:52

Let's not victim blame in the context of the meme.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:56

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:57

Um, I just wanted to state that for the record. I don't want it, I don't want to see an isolated sound block by of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:04

You probably deserved it. Um, so were bears are consistently described as being solitary, um, living far outside of human settlements and rarely interacting even with other were bears. And they often act as warders of the flora and fauna of the area. And also, despite being solitary and generally wanting to be left alone, they can be friendly if they are approached peacefully, which is how you get a reaction that isn't brandishing a ware axe or a werax. A warex? A warax? A great new were title. A new lycanthrope just dropped.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:38

Oh, weird weapons now. I actually like that idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:42

Um, yeah, you could just use the mechanic of like egoistic swords, which is a good series of words that I learned from first edition. Um, I like that that happens enough that swords are like cursed and like intelligent enough that they were like, okay, we need to develop a thing for yeah, we need to develop terminology for this. So while not being specifically described as friendly in the fifth edition monster manual, I I find their description therein like particularly interesting and also like benevolent and kind of kind of beautiful in a way. Most were bears, uh, as we've discussed, live solitary lives out of concern for the safety of others in the event that their control over their animal instincts would fail them. And they usually specifically refrain from biting in combat so they don't turn other creatures. Um if a werebear does choose to turn another person, it is usually only done to a trusted friend or sort of like apprentice. And I would imagine they probably talk about it before.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:48

They don't just do it like sorry I bit you, but welcome to the club. Welcome to the club.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:54

Um surprise, were right, you just wake up and it's like, so I got good news and bad news. And also, like after you know, this occurs, the werebear will spend the time afterwards kind of you know, guiding their apprentice of sorts in learning to live with their condition, right? Which I think is really I think is really neat. And also, like, I don't know, I was reading this whole thing, and I just I just feel like a character concept of like Smokey the Werebear, you know, because they're all about like protecting nature and stuff. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like there's something there. There's something there. Legally distinct, Smokey the Werebear. So finally, we're gonna talk about where rats. And ironically, this is kind of the big one here because were rats are weird. I have been grouping them with the other four lycanthropes featured here due to their kind of similarly long and consistent publication history. They've been in a lot of stuff, but they have some very unique differences. So, as I mentioned earlier, they were introduced in Greyhawk instead of in the white box set.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:59

Um, and they were described as especially intelligent creatures, like they are relatively consistently more intelligent than other lycanthropes most of the time. Sometimes they are equally as intelligent as were bears, who are the smartest besides wear rats. It they're they're interesting because they prefer to stay in a uh form that is described as a nearly man-sized rat. So, like, no, yeah, as opposed to in the human form. And also, like, again, also their their their thing in Greyhawk is like a little paragraph that's like this big. Like they're just like, hey, these are wear rats. And one of the things in that little paragraph is that they uh will take any opportunity they can to capture and hold people for ransom, which is really funny. Um, like, okay. I don't know what they do with the money, but they buy cheese. They yeah, they just buy cheese, yeah. I like it. So in the DD rules cyclopedia, they are chaotic in alignment. There's no alignment given for them in Greyhawk, but in every other mainline entry, uh they are lawful evil, except in fourth edition, where they're simply evil because fourth edition. Who's with um while every other lycanthrope discussed today is always referred to as a person who can transform into an animal, there are a few notable instances where rare where rats fucking hell are described in the reverse. What? Um, so in the Rule Cyclopedia, with no elaboration mind, it refers to their rat form as their quote natural form and their human form as one they assume. And it gets even more complicated in Nighthouse, like literally with nothing. They were like, Oh yeah, uh opposite to most lycanthropes, the rat form is actually natural, and then they just move on. And I'm like, hello. I would like I would like some explanation on the the mechanics there.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

Any explanation there? Nothing like cool?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:55

No, no? Okay, we're just okay, we're moving on.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:57

We're we've just we've simply moved on, got it. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:00

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:01

Yeah. Like I'm I'm like, so did did the rat get bitten, or is this like a natural no, no, we're just okay, we're just moving on. All right. Um, so in pretty much any material that doesn't explicitly center lycanthropes as potential player characters, and some even some that do, where rats are they're really they're really going hard on these guys. They are described as sewer skimming parasites. Like the monstrous manual uses the word parasite like a gazillion times. Oh my god. Um and of all lycanthropes, they live most closely to human settlements, often living in the sewers, you know, um, as opposed to kind of living out out in the wilderness in the forest, whatever. So the human forms of where rats are described as being small and wiry, and overall kind of looking just like the sniveling sidekick of a Disney villain. You know, that vibe. Yeah, you know that vibe. And they most often assume their human forms. It's pretty consistent that they kind of prefer to chill in either their like little hybrid rat man form or in like their dire rat form as opposed to their human form. So they usually assume their human forms in order to lure potential victims into you know back alleys or sewer entrances or whatever, before a group of them kind of ambush the person to hold them for ransom because they like doing that apparently, or sometimes just eating them. That's probably what they do with the people who they don't get the ransom money from. So probably they are more social than most other lycanthropes, and they they live and and and work together to hold people for ransom in comparatively pretty large numbers because even werewolves are social, but their their family groups are smaller, whereas like where rat warrens have like a lot of people in them. Right. But they are often described, this is mostly from the monstrous manual, they're fucking brutal. They're described as not having a concept of real interpersonal bonds and also kind of having the mindset of like you know, like if if too much if there's too much conflict going on in their community, they'll kind of just get up and leave, you know, as opposed to fighting for dominance or control or whatever. So like it's like if there's too much, you know, there's too much going on, like any individual werewats will probably be like, I'ma just I'm gonna head out. Head out, yeah. I'm gonna head out. Yeah, when there's when there's too much drama at school, just gotta walk away. Yay, yay. I didn't fully commit there, and I'm not proud of that, but it's okay. It's okay. Um, so they also have they also have some reproduction related weirdness from the monster manual, similar to werewolves. Like the the the the descriptions of of of the other kinds of lycanthropes have a lot of sometimes unnecessarily mean sounding um details in there. They only made the weird, the choice to include a lot of weird reproductive stuff for the werewolves and were rats for some reason. Apparently, they rarely breed with their own kind, which probably has something to do with the lack of interpersonal connections thing. Probably. Um, and the the offspring of a human woman and a were rat male is human but small, taking after their father in that regard. Um the offspring of a were rat female, and presumably a human male, but it doesn't actually specify her partner, so this might just be kind of what happens when you know the the the mom is a wear rat. The these babies resemble giant rats with human-like paws.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:38

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:42

I mean, they kind of they kind of already have yeah, a little like rats already do kind of have fingers a little human-like paws. Yeah, I know, I know, dude. I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:53

So like they have like rat paws, but like phalanges, like human beings.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:57

They already have phalanges. That's the thing. Humanity have yeah, rats are it's not good, it's not pleasant.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:04

That's um that's fucking bizarre.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:07

Though it it it says that these rattlings mature in about two years, upon which they gain the ability to shape shift into the form of a human child, which is really funny. Which is really funny given the context of like how they like to lure and kidnap people. Oh my god. Yeah, so like you know, the little kid goes up and does the like, I'm lost. Can you help me find my mom?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:31

Oh, or you found my mom, and mom is a vicious rat.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:35

Yeah, and she's just a giant fucking rat. Also, apparently, the this this this this source book is so mean to all the lycanthropes for some reason. Um, apparently, leaving the sewer doesn't remove the smell of the sewer. Um you can take the rat out of the sewer, but you can't take the sewer out of the rat, which begs the question of how wear rats are able to get into bed with enough humans that they don't need to regularly breed with each other. It does specifically say that they, because of this uh aroma, they kind of are are more or less stuck in a lot of lower down, you know, seedy taverns and the like.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:12

Um yeah, because a lot of the people there probably also smells similar.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:18

Probably don't smell too great either. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what it is. The monsters manual really does not hold back.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:24

I notice.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:25

Like um, also, there's a really good ecology article. It's in Dragon Magazine 251, and the framing of it is a series of journal entries from like a royal sage who goes down into the sewers with a couple of like knights or guards or whatever because they think they have a wear rat problem and they do. And it goes over the a span of time of this sage being held in captivity while one of the knights while she watches him transform into a wear rat. Um I'm telling it like it's a funny story. It's actually very horrifying, but it's a very good, it's a very good read, and it introduces a lot of cool random little things about ware rats that aren't really ever addressed again. Like they can regrow their limbs, except their heads. Okay. Oh, all right. And a and a fun, interesting fact about real-world rats, where apparently the way their teeth, like in their mouth are structured, makes it so that they can essentially pull their lips behind some of their like what would be the same place as like our canine teeth in our mouth and uh essentially inflict something with a dry bite that has no saliva, right? Which keeps them from spreading the infection in the instance that they don't want to create more wear rats. Right. Um, but yeah, so that's the real world rat fact for you. But yeah, there's like rat fact. Yeah, rat facts. Um, but it's yeah, it's a really it's a really cool read. Also, they're apparently all ambidextrous, um, which is cool. But yeah, it's a it's a really good read. But again, a lot of the a lot of the details are are stuff that's not really ever kind of utilized again. Naturally, yeah, but it's it's a it's a very good read.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:10

As most ecology articles are.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:11

Yeah, as most ecology articles are, the framing of it is really cool. The last thing we're gonna talk about is the wear rats in Night Howlers, which is kind of the king of the rat king, if you will.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:24

That's okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:25

That's good. It's the it's the king of weird lycanthropy stuff in this episode. Um, so in night howlers, wear rats are especially special, one might say, because there are two distinct types of wear rats with very different origins. So the first of these appeared shortly after the initial epidemic, which was in the year 401 AC. I don't know what I don't know what that means after Christ. I don't know. And are giant rats that have become afflicted by lycanthropy. So these guys also start as regular animals. So this causes them to grow even larger, become more intelligent, and gain the ability to transform into both a human form and an intermediate man rat form. It's specifically referred to as a man-rat form as opposed to a rat man form, which becomes their preferred form that they like to hang out in. Their man rat form is weaker than a usual hybrid form. And in a humorous inversion of the usual mechanic, um, during a full moon, these types of wear rats are compelled to transform into their human forms.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:29

And so they they start doing taxes. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:35

And and going out to restaurants, yeah, and picking up the mail, uh but like the which is just conceptually really funny to me. Like, hi, this is this is my this is my rat who has to turn into a man every month. Like, I don't know, it's really funny to me. However, over 500 years later, like this was this phenomenon was not observed after the initial epidemic. So over 500 years later, in the year 961 AC, which is 39 years before the module is said to take place, greater ware rats started showing up. And these are humans who survived being infected by a lesser were rat. So the term greater ware rat is what the sages call them, but the lesser were rats simply call these individuals boss. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:29

I think I hate this setting.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:32

Boss, boss, boss, boss. So apparent, apparently, a greater wear rat can take a leadership position over a group of lesser wear rats who kind of happily follow along as long as the greater were rat can prove consistently that they are stronger and smarter than their followers, and also doesn't ask them to do too much work. Um, also, remember the night howlers werewolves have French accents thing? Apparently, apparently, where rats are all from New York City because the expository paragraph is written. I'm shifting here. Hey, sorry about sorry about biting you, boss. I know you nearly died. I can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:16

Hey, how's it going, boss?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:17

Hey, forget about it. Like dead ass. It is written, like the accent is written out in the same way as yeah, and and also the the character calls, you know, you the player character, new where rat boss, and it's written out just to be like a New York accent, which is really good. So, like that, so like pizza rat is king. So, like literal, literal pizza rat is k Jesus. Anyway, so many questions. I do too, and and there are no answers. I had so many of these. I read a sentence and then there was a there was a line break and a new paragraph, and I was like, wait, hold on. Is there not more? Did I miss a thing? Did I miss it? No, I didn't. No, they just said that, and then I have gone. That's just where it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:12

Get out of the lands in there. Yeah, so that's your own sua.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:19

Yeah, exactly. Oh, so that's that's lycanthropes part one of like probably like I could probably do fucking three of these things because there's so many.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:28

Hey Lewin.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:29

You have a lot of work in progress multi-part series. Yeah, listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:34

I get I get elf elves. I don't know what uh I don't know what an elf is. There's elf specific types of lycanthropes.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:41

I know, I learned about that recently because I was looking into different un like unrelated to dungeon pedia. I was just looking at different elf elf stuff species.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:50

And yeah, like there's it's like listen, there's there's there's a lot. And it's like listen, like I I need, you know, I I need I need I need variety, you know. I've been looking at these, I've been looking at these things, you know, so now I'm like probably gonna do something totally different next time.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:10

I do love how you and I tend to have completely opposite ways of handling multi-parters, where I'm like, well, I have to do every single thing that is possibly related to this for my next five episodes. And you're like, I'll get back to it eventually.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:22

Well, and it's it's when is when it's stuff like when it's stuff like this, it's very much like because so much of it is kind of just about the different variants as opposed to like here's a chronological explanation of like one topic. So then you can kind of cleanly put it into like a here's a part one that goes into like a certain chronological point versus you know, here's a part two that's from that point to like nowadays, you know, like this kind of thing is like I didn't I didn't want to go through and be like, okay, here's every lycanthrope from Dungeons and Dragons. Here's every lycanthrope from advanced dungeons and dragons, because that would have been a very boring way to do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:02

And also because, like I said, some of these guys have literally like one appearance. Yeah. This was a this is a weird, this was a weird, weird research because I I I had that reaction of like, oh, is that is that it? There's no no no follow-up to okay. I had that like 20 times during doing the doing the research for this.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:24

Uh thank you guys so much for listening. Don't forget to follow us on threads, on Instagram, just wherever you like to find social media. That doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:34

Um no one likes to find social media.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:36

No one likes social media does find you though.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:38

That's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:40

On those social media platforms, you can spread the word. You can share this stream. We do have like little shorts and stuff. And Travis has been adding little fun tidbits of lore that he finds, and that will help us spread the word to all those who might enjoy this.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:56

Yes, and if you have anything that you would like to suggest as a topic for us to cover, feel free to email us at dungeonpedia.podcast at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:04

Thank you once again for listening, and we'll catch you next week here on Dungeon Pedia. Guys, what do you call someone who turns into a YouTuber during a full night? Like and subscribe.