Should This Have Happened
Should This Have Happened? is a movie debate show where hosts Nathan "Tater" Salyer and Rob McCallum put sequels, reboots, prequels, and remakes on trial to determine if they deserved to exist. Each episode explores what worked, what didn't, and ultimately answers one question: Should this have happened?
Should This Have Happened
Should Superman (2025) Have Happened?
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Before Supergirl flies into theaters, Should This Have Happened? puts Superman 2025 on trial. Rob and Nathan “Tater” Salyer debate whether James Gunn’s new take on the Man of Steel truly launched the new DC Universe with hope, heart, and purpose, or if it was another shiny reboot wearing a cape and hoping nobody asks too many questions.
From the casting and tone to the story, villains, world-building, and what it means for Supergirl, we break down whether this Superman deserved to happen, whether it fixed DC’s biggest problems, and whether fans should be excited or deeply suspicious, because comic book movies have trained us all to have trust issues.
Verdict: Should Superman 2025 have happened?
What are we doing again, people?
SPEAKER_02A superhero on this scale.
SPEAKER_01Way more complex than it needed to be. The fact that we didn't get to see the origin story. For today's dollars, that's $1.47 billion. Okay. Well, hey, Nathan. What's up, Rob? I've got a question for you. What's that? Should they have made Superman the 2025 film? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to our amazing show with the unconfusing title of Should This Have Happened? In this case, Superman 2025. Should this film have happened? And why are we talking about a film that came out a year ago? Well, we got to get ready for Supergirl, which comes out this year. And in Superman 2025, we got introduced to Supergirl ever so briefly, of course. So here we are, myself, Rob McCallum, alongside my faithful, ever critical thinking, confident, confident, confidant, not sidekick, equal. He is confident. He is Nathan the Tater Slayer. Nathan, start talking because I'm running out of juice already.
SPEAKER_02What is going on, everyone? I am Tater.
SPEAKER_01You are you are Tater, and I've been tatered. I've been tatered this morning already, trying to get ready for this. I I literally just finished re-watching Superman 2025. Before we dive into the background, I am curious, what is your your where does your compass point, Tater, in all things Superman? Are you a super fan? Are you a super hater? Do you do you care? Is he a super shit? Like, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02No, I I I wouldn't call myself a super fan. You're not a super fan of Superman. I'm not a super fan of Superman. Growing up, I I uh you know, I watched the the cartoons, you know, I read the comics, but I wouldn't say that I'm a super fan. I don't collect any of the toys, you know, whether or not you know memorabilia comes out, you know, it's not something that you know I go after, you know, unlike Masters of the Universe or something like that. But I mean, I'm not a hater either. I mean, I I like Superman, I like DC, I like you know, all the characters for DC. I'm not a Marvel versus DC guy, you know.
SPEAKER_01I pick a side.
SPEAKER_02I can't let it side. Pick it, do it.
SPEAKER_01You gotta pick a side. What's better, Marvel or DC? Decide right now, based on the merits of every Superman film that's ever been released. Go. Marvel. Yeah, yeah. But I think there's interesting reasons for that, which we will discuss today. Now, most of the time on our show, we compare sequels to the originals. In this case, we're talking about a reboot, a relaunch, a reimagining, another kick at the can, I think is probably a little bit more. Another kick at the kryptonite, I'll say. Oh, see what I did there. Uh, there's been a lot of Superman films, a lot of Superman entries. I don't know how you want to describe this, but of course, there's the Christopher Reeves films, the four of them. There is also the ill-fated Superman Lives that was written by Kevin Smith that didn't come out. Superman Returns in 2020, and then 2013 was Man of Steel. We have Batman vs. Superman and Zack Snyder's Justice League World that DC has been in. And now here we are, under the leadership of James Gunn, Superman 2025, the big first entry in James Gunn's DC reworking. It's not the DC universe, like uh Marvel's the MCU. Do we have a term for DC universe? What is the term? I think it is the DCU. Is it? Yeah, it's the DCUs.
SPEAKER_02The DC.
SPEAKER_01I know that's what the toy line was for a while, but is it really just the DCU?
SPEAKER_02Everything that I've read online so far has talked about the DCU and the DC universe.
SPEAKER_01What are you doing wasting your time reading? I'd like to do my research. Well, I guess. I suppose. You don't just listen to sassy podcasts like this for all your information. Well, sometimes. Fair enough. Fair enough. So we may jump around between the different Superman entries over the years. And of course, it all hails from a comic book. And I thought instead of giving alternate takes on what the story could have been, sometimes we'd like to do alternate concepts that could have been put into production. I thought we would do a little did you know? So, Tater, did you know that Siegel and Schuster, the creators of Superman, sold their rights to DC Comics in 39 for, well, actually, could you guess how much they originally sold the rights for in 1939?
SPEAKER_00Ooh.
SPEAKER_02That I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna say $15. It was a little bit more than that. It was $130, but you can imagine with the success of the character over the years and decades, the lawsuits that uh crept up, in which case there were several notable lawsuits. And finally, I believe in 2001, 2002-ish, the Siegel family finally settled. They got a multi-million dollar upfront payment to ignore all past, present, and future claims, and they get six percent of gross royalties on the character. Oh wow, that's huge. Now, the Schuster family, the Schuster family did not do quite as well. They settled in 1992, again, promising to ignore all past, present, and future claims against Warner Brothers in DC for an annual annual pension of a whopping $25,000.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01But I want you to think about this $25,000. It doesn't sound like a lot, but in 1992, you're coming off the heels of Superman 4 just a few years earlier. We did not have the technology that we have now to make superhero films. There really are no superhero films. You're really looking at superhero books only. You're taking a best guess on the longevity of a title. The fact that there was no cost of living or quality of life built into this, that it was just a flat rate of 25 grand, no matter what inflation happens. Pretty bad deal. In fact, it's a pretty famous case. And they've actually tried to sue Warner Brothers again. Can you believe that? They actually tried to stop the release of the James Gunn 2025 film outside of the US because, according to them and their attorneys, paraphrasing all the legal work that I read online, paraphrasing what I've discovered. Uh their deal, my research, that their deal for 25 grand a year does not include foreign rights. So in foreign countries like Canada and the UK, copyright reverts back to the estate and heirs 25 years after someone passes away. So in 2020 and 2021, the rights would have reverted back to them. And when they went to court initially, the uh federal court didn't have the jurisdiction to allow a ruling for outside of US territories. So it was kind of withdrawn as a result, but now they've refiled into York under something else. Anyways, the dance continues. The Schuster family, of course, is Canadian. So a lot of people don't know that Superman, one of the creators, was Canadian. So he's half Canadian, baby, just like this show.
SPEAKER_02Well, they you know, I I I find that interesting that you know the movies very much focus on Superman protecting America, and that is a huge part of these movies where it's like, you know, you you you you Superman needs to be American, you know, and America, he's not. America Man. America.
SPEAKER_01America Man is America Man. I want to make that superhero America Man, America Man and Canada Man. I wanna see the adventures of America Man and Canada Man.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, yeah, I you know, I mean that's a huge part of the the movies, and I you know, I don't know uh if that's a part of the lore for the comics. Do we do you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's pretty much truth, justice in the American way. Uh okay. Yeah. Um there are a lot of comic book images of the American flag around him, so he's definitely a symbol of Americana at the very least. Getting back to what the movies are, why don't you jump into the synopses of some of the previous Superman films and lead us up to 2025?
SPEAKER_02Okay. I've got the synopsis for the Superman, the movie from 1978. Says an alien orphan is sent from his dying planet to Earth, where he grows up to become his adoptive home's first and greatest superhero.
SPEAKER_01And this is, of course, directed by Richard Donner, starring Marlon Brando, Christopher Reeve, and Gene Hackman. Okay, this is great. What's the next synopsis you got for us?
SPEAKER_02I've got the Man of Steel. I went ahead and pulled that one as well. Okay. So it says an alien child is evacuated from his dying world and sent to Earth to live among humans. His peace is threatened when other survivors of his home planet invade Earth. Oh, okay. Sounds a little better. And what about 2025? All right, 2025. Superman must reconcile his alien Kryptonian heritage with his human upbringing as reporter Clark Kent, as the embodiment of truth, justice, and the American way. He soon finds himself in a world that views these old views these as old fashioned.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's really interesting. We sometimes do a topic called cultural context. You can see why this xenophobic theme of outsiders versus insiders seems more relevant than ever. It's interesting that they put that texture on on the Superman mythology for us to discuss in 2025. Before we jump in even further to what the see what the original is and what the sequel is, I got some box office information for us to go through. So Superman in 1978 had a worldwide gross of, they're calling it 300 million flat for today's dollars. That's 1.47 billion dollars. Okay. Thought it would be interesting to talk about Superman returns as well, because that was a bit of a reboot as well in 2006. That brought in 391 million at the time, which adjusts to 614 million in today's dollars. Man of Steel, again, 2013 brought in 670 million worldwide, which adjusts to 898 million. And Superman 2025 brought in 618 million, which is 618 million in today's dollars. So by far the first one just absolutely crushes it. Mana Steel got closer, but didn't quite crack 900 million according to this. So the original is still up over 600 million or 30 compared to every other iteration. Another fun way to look at this is every subsequent iteration makes less dollars adjusted for even adjusted for inflation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So continually decline. Superman the movie from 1978. I think it was the budget was 55 million, which was the most expensive movie made for that era. I mean astronomical. That was yeah, that was pretty incredible for for that that time frame.
SPEAKER_01And remember, the year before Star Wars was in production in 76, released in 77, they had a budget, I think, of originally 20 million or so, and they got up over 30 million, and Fox was panicking, worried that it was going to bankrupt the studio. So when something like that happens, and then you have other things like The Godfather doing incredibly well for Paramount Pictures, you get the writer from The Godfather, Mario Poots or Pozzo, and he becomes the screenwriter for Superman. They take a big swing on another fantasy epic, and then clearly it paid off for them in spades.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the the the casting for the original Superman, I thought, was pretty incredible.
SPEAKER_01I think the casting is everything. So let's let's jump right into it. Let's break down the original. Why does the original film work? What what does what does it do so well?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I think this is the first iteration of a superhero on this scale. I mean, you know, we have Superman finally, you know, in theater. I mean, Superman had been in theaters before, you know, in the black and white versions, but in the Flash-animated series, of course. Yeah, and I mean, to this scale, we've we've never seen a superhero uh at this point in time, uh, you know, that one you know made it believable that you know a superhero could fly.
SPEAKER_01You know, that's I think the biggest thing right away, right? There the technology exists thanks in part to Star Wars to have the optical illusion that somebody could fly. Yeah. And it's still convincing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I mean, you know, it and a lot of the visual effects that they were doing were amazing. I mean, from the the suits when they were on Krypton, you know, and in that whole scene of you know, Krypton exploding. You know, I mean, there was just it was huge for for Superman to to be that big on that scale, you know. I mean, it was just it was amazing.
SPEAKER_01So so the scale was a huge thing, the technology was a huge thing, huge thing. Is there anything else that helped that film resonate then and over time? We you mentioned casting briefly, which I think you could not have done a better job, even with Christopher Reeves as being a little bit of an unknown, to be able to land Marlon Brando called the the bit part of Jorel, but still again, that anchored presence. And Gene Hackman, Gene Hackman makes the film for me.
SPEAKER_02Yes, he he was amazing. I mean, in you know, he really sold that I'm the smartest man on the planet, you know. You know, he was surrounded by a world of idiots, and you know, I mean, he was the the greatest criminal mastermind ever, and he really sold that Miss Tessmacher Poor guy, he has Otis as his sidekick and Miss Tessmacher.
SPEAKER_01I don't know that qualifies him as the smartest man alive.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, no, you know, and I was thinking, I was thinking that. I was like, you know, compared to like the the new 2025 movie, you know, Lex Luthor has an entire corporation, you know, he's surrounded by people. And in 1978, they he's got two people that work for him.
SPEAKER_01We'll compare them a a bit, but there is definitely we'll compare the story of two Lexes and two Supermans. Happy to do that, of course. Let's let's do that in a second. I think again, when a when a villain is fun to watch, it doesn't matter what's going on with the hero. You find a way to see how the hero can overcome the puzzle of the villain, which is what we got going on here. I think Superman at the time was 78. You know, America is still recovering, the world is still recovering from some nasty geopolitical conflicts, and it's heating up again with the Cold War, still going on and getting a lot serious as we almost tiptoe into the Reagan era. You need that symbol of hope, that symbol of uh invincibility of no, somebody out there will save us, somebody will always do the right thing and won't make the selfish choice. And I think that idea is why the Christopher Reeves Superman, that the big blue boy scout, resonated for so many years. Because it was just this untouchable force that, yeah, you you might kick him when he's down, you might win a battle, but he'll always kind of win the larger war because you can't stop somebody who always has good intentions and wants to put the good of everybody ahead. And I think that's something you know we still need now, despite the gray-scaled world we live in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I I think it it brought a a sense of optimism, hope, you know, and Christopher Reeves really does a phenomenal job, you know, kind of displaying how I don't want to say how perfect he is, but how just good he is, and and what what that looks like. You know, he's he on he's honest, he never tells a lie. Stoic! You know, yeah, very very stoic, very gentlemanlike, very, you know. A chivalry, man. Chivalry, yes. Yes, he's he's you know, but but he also displays all the emotions, you know. I mean, he's he's got anger, he's got you know grief, you know, he he shows those emotions, but you know, he never lets those I want to say over you know overtake him, and you know, he always seems to prevail, you know. So does the ending work, do you think, for the 78 film? You know, I think that, yeah, I think that, you know, the ending everything from you know Jonathan's death, his his father, to Lois Lane, you know, dying at the end, and then his iconic exit, you know, displaying that he's Superman and you know that he's the defender of you know the American way or the defender of the world, you know. I I I thought that worked.
SPEAKER_01I I think the you think the whole turning back the world, yeah, turning back the world was a little kind of wrecks it for every sequel, doesn't it? Yeah, I think it does. Why doesn't Superman fly around the world in reverse and reverse the rotational axis and rewind time? Yeah, there's a lot of questions in that, you know.
SPEAKER_02It's it's you know, yeah, there I I I I don't quite sell that as believable, you know. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's certainly not a superpower, and I I I commend the writers though for having for having the the guts to say this is how we're gonna fix it, because they painted themselves in a situation where Superman couldn't win, which is exactly what you want to do, but you just hope that you can be creative enough to overcome it. But he can't be in two places at once, right? That's the simple fact. Let's break down the sequel. What did the continuation add? What does Superman 2025 do? You know, what changes between the two films? Because this, you know, for a matter of fact, it's a little bit of an origin story. There's enough origin material in here. It's certainly not just another chapter, but thankfully filmmakers have figured out and studios have figured out we kind of know who these people are, more or less. So you only really have to give us a few breadcrumbs instead of retelling the whole story again. So, what did the sequel do?
SPEAKER_02But I also think that that part's problematic too. So yeah, it is. But what did it add? The the biggest thing for me that it added was crypto. I wanted to see crypto. Oh god. I I I love it.
SPEAKER_01Listen, I'm a dog lover, and the fact that you're like zeroing in on the dog as a thing that you liked only kind of like pay attention to this flashy thing over here. Ignore that.
SPEAKER_02The flashy thing got me. I was like, squirrel, you know. I mean, I loved crypto. I mean, I like I was watching it with my partner, and I kept telling her I was like, you know, if if only my bunnies would act that way. I was like, I'd love it. But some other things that it brought, modern visual effects. I mean, it was, you know, I mean, we'll we'll get into this, but it was bigger in scale. I mean, we got a more comic book accurate Superman, I think. Really?
SPEAKER_01What does that mean? I think so. I mean, I'm gonna pick on you. What does that mean? How many some Superman comics have you read in order to make that claim?
SPEAKER_02You know, I I mean when I was a kid, I I don't know how many I've read, but I wanna I think it was more comic book accurate. I I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I think uh not me. What you you're it's your claim, not mine. I'm just asking what makes it comic book. What makes it comic book accurate though? Because I'm pretty sure a lot of comic book fans would say, this didn't happen. This doesn't this isn't like the comics.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, I I I think more the villains, or not the villains, but the the superheroes, you know. I mean, they the look was more comic book accurate for a lot of the villains, a lot of the superheroes, you know, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so we're talking about an aesthetic. There's an accurate.
SPEAKER_02An aesthetic, yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, obviously that you know they they go against some of the lore, you know. I mean, like with his parents, uh like I I thought, you know, when we get into that that didn't work or you know, what turned fans off, that was one of the things that turned well save it for that section.
SPEAKER_01Don't be looking at my don't be cheat cheating ahead here. So I think one of the things that they added was, and it's the question that everybody has to come up with a good Answer for when they're making a Superman film or story is what are we going to do that's different? What are we going to do that's compelling? How are we going to get audiences to buy into this character? What is his flaw? What is his weakness so that you know that he's not just constantly invincible and can do anything? Because that was kind of the feeling in the stereotype standard, right? Right. Again, the original film, the only way they could come up with a way to put him in a pinch was he couldn't be in two places at once.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01You know, kryptonite doesn't totally kill him, it just weakens him and kind of anchors him, makes him sick. They can't be in two places at once. You know, they they've had him divided before, they've had him give up his powers before, they've you know had him, you know, fight other heroes before because of an ideological difference. But you got to come up with something that's bigger, stronger than him because he is more or less invincible. You gotta come up with somebody who's smarter than him, so you get the brain versus brawn uh theme, which we get heavily in this, which is why Lex Luthor is always a formidable villain. But I think ultimately what they added was a sense of immaturity, a sense of development that he is, you know, a young adult still trying to figure out his way and making mistakes along the way. This is where he's learning to be a hero, where every other film, that sense of being a hero and doing the right thing is always innate. It's never second-guessed. We always assume that what he is doing is the right choice. Where here we see that there is a bit of impetulance to it, that there's a bit of a youthful naivety to what he's doing, and that yeah, he can rationalize it, but he isn't looking at the bigger picture. He's very myoptic in what he thinks is right and what is good and what people expect of him.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I I want to I want to touch on that later on when we when we talk about some of our other subjects, that that was a that that was an issue I had with with the film.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I mean it might be a great time to talk about that right now. Specifically, does the sequel understand the original or does it understand the source material, the mythology, the mythos that's been presented? And I I should say it doesn't necessarily need to completely understand it. It's not about being faithful, but if you're going to abandon it, carry through it with some logic and some and some real meaningful motivation so that it still works. So, does this iteration understand the mythos, the mythology, the lore that precedes it?
SPEAKER_02I I I think it does and it doesn't. I think it embraces the concept of hope for Superman. You know, it it returns, you know, kind of a balance between action, humor, and you know, and and hope. But in a you know, in that same breath, I I think it is less less mythic, you know. The the problems that I have with the film, you know, one was that Jorel, his his biological uh, you know, father and you know his biological mother, they turn them bad, you know. They they want him to take over the world when you know that mythology was always him to come, you know, embrace the world for hope, for you know, truth, justice in the American way. And well, I don't know that it's that they want him to turn bad. I think well, not turn bad, but they want him to enslave the world.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you know, he they said rule over them without mercy, but I want you to think about where they're coming from. Their planet is blowing up. We know from the lore, it's not described in this film, but we've seen enough Superman that because of conflicting ideologies and what they've done to their planet, it is breaking up and blowing up, and nobody can save it. So if you were to send a message to your son who's going to be essentially a god on another planet, you would want to make sure that he lasts forever, that he doesn't let that happen. So there's a lot of insecurity in there that right, and they say it's not explored.
SPEAKER_02The message says that's what's going on. If anybody stands in your way, go ahead and because that's what I think they wish they could have done, right?
SPEAKER_01And frankly, just because our parents tell us something doesn't mean we have to listen. No, our parents aren't right all the time either, which I think is part of the humanity of this. Right. This film explores very much what it means to be human. I know what you're saying, though. We are used to like we want our parents to be the best, goodest thing ever. That's the hot take, right? If our parents are the best, goodest thing ever, then we can be set up for success. The fact is, we want Superman to be the best symbol of hope and goodest thing ever as well. His parents clearly are flawed. So does that make him flawed? No, because he's a different person.
SPEAKER_02Well, he was he was raised differently, but I I still I still do not like that tape on the street. You can have a problem with parents in films. Do we need to talk?
SPEAKER_01We always talk. I want we've done we've done episodes on on Indy in and Top Gun Maverick. I want Maverick to meet his dad. I know he passed away, but I want some sort of flashback there. He's got the picture in the original Top Gun. I just want just want to see your take on his dad. Anyways, go on. Next, what's going on?
SPEAKER_02Oh now I've I've I've lost my my train of thought on that. Okay, issues with the film. Does it understand the original? Does it tone audio characters, energy, themes? I I would say yes. I think Man of Steel was was a darker take on it, and this was very I want to say kind of a a balance between you know serious, comic, you know, a little laughter, you know.
SPEAKER_01I just I think every Superman film in particular. This isn't the case for every reboot iteration of every superhero film, but Superman has been rebooted several times. We could have the same discussion with Batman, but wouldn't find the same thing, I don't think. Yeah, with Superman, everyone's trying to carve their own lane about how this world and universe and character work, so they're very distinct paths. They all start with the same kind of box of Lego bricks, but they're all building different things. And they're and now it's like a land grab that they're trying to fight for these lanes so that nobody's overlapping too much. And I'm not sure why they feel they have to do that. If we're starting so much that's similar, just do things better. Yeah, it's not I don't think the problems is as big as everyone's is making it out to believe, right? Other than the inherent problems of the kid, I would agree with self being compelling in a 90-minute film or two hours.
SPEAKER_02I I would I would agree with that, you know. Some of the you know, the the fact that we didn't get to see the origin story, I I think you know, for me that was a problem, you know. I mean, you you basically got like you know, a 30-second synopsis on the on the screen that kind of told you, you know, hey, this is what's going on, and then all of a sudden the film starts with him you know landing in the ice.
SPEAKER_01Superman year three, right? Right, right. That's kind that's kind of what we're getting, and it's like, okay, we're early on, and that makes sense because you want to see him, you want to have a lot of films, so you don't want to see him at the end of his career for the first reiteration of this reboot, but right, but with that has lots of problems. So and I really did not like the way that they handled the exposition with the stupid talking robots filling in all the gaps, as if the new robot is the audience window who is supposed to be learning. Like, wouldn't they have just downloaded all the information?
SPEAKER_02The they they monologue the hell out of the origin story, and it was like you you're just kind of spoon feeding me what I need to know in order to you know to continue with the movie. And it it that that to me was that that that bothered me.
SPEAKER_01That was they could have done a much easier, you know, maybe generic thing where there's like this special report on Superman where we quickly get snippets of who he is, how long he's been around, some ac accolades and feats for maybe for his first big sit-down interview with Lois or whatever. I I don't know. And then he's pulled away to go fight Borah Boravia or whatever it was. There's just a bunch of different ways that you could handle that. That's more compelling than talking robots that should be able to download and share that database instead of having to speak to one another for the sake of the audience. Right.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So there's no charm there. I think there's a lot of charm in the 78 film, and I think there's some charm, and I think the mystery of Man of Steel is what is really alluring. I really love the whole wanderer aspect where he's trying to find himself as he's growing up as an adult. He doesn't know what to do, he doesn't know what his place should be.
SPEAKER_02I thought that was really good, and I I I liked how they kind of flash back a little bit to him as a kid as he's wandering, trying to find himself, trying to, you know, to find his way in the world. And I like those little flashbacks to the origin story, and you know, it wasn't just you get this chunk, you get this chunk, and then you get this chunk. You know, it kind of bounced back and forth, and I thought they did a really good job with that. I would have liked to have seen that for the new movie.
SPEAKER_01Well, here's my Superman hot take just for you, Nathan. I think the best iteration we've ever seen of Superman actually comes from TV, and I think it's actually Smallville. And it you might be hard to compete with this idea, but I think it's the most successful filmed version of Superman out there with 10 seasons of 22 hour-long episodes, because it gives you the time to get into the history and the character nuances as he's really coming of age and learning what his history is. Rather than having flashbacks, you see how he discovered his past and how every incremental thing affects him. He doesn't just wake up one day as a teenager, as a kid with all the powers. He slowly gets them into varying degrees. Right. It's a much better, more comic book like thing because there are several chapters or issues that contribute to who this person is and be and how it becomes a more complex character instead of just I'm always gonna do good. Good is everything. I'm a robot, just like the people healing me, explaining exposition.
SPEAKER_02Right. And you know, I mean, and that's the challenge in a you know, a 90-minute to well, now they're almost three-hour movies.
SPEAKER_01133 minutes, I think this one was. Was it? Yeah, it's two hours and 13 minutes, I think. Yeah. 2025. All right, well, let's let's jump right to the standalone test. Does the sequel work without the original or any lore before it? Could you jump into Superman 2025 as if it was a brand new superhero and didn't know anything about him and come away saying this is a great film? How much does it benefit from all that? Go.
SPEAKER_02I I think you can in a sense where they kind of spoon feed you the lore. So you do get the story, but you you don't get it enough to to really understand, you know, how like you said, how complex uh, you know, Superman really is. So yes, it can stand alone as a movie, but I I think that's I I think it's it that that's kind of a fragile thing, you know. I mean, uh you could debate one way or the other, but in a sense, yes, I I believe the standalone test does work for this movie only because they spoon feed you that lore.
SPEAKER_01I do think you're right. I think it does stand on its own as a you know, if this was a different hero, I don't think you need any outside knowledge coming into this to connect any of the dots. I think everyone is explained, every situation makes sense, every all the heavy lifting is done. It is a complete story. That said, though, I think it does suffer from just a sign of the times where much like we talked about why did we get a Superman film now, why is now a good time, you know, discussions about geopolitical politics make it really interesting discussion with the xenophobia at large. Because it is such a product of superhero cinema culture, I think it's bogged down by certain superhero expectations that make it a harder one-off piece to digest. The fact that there are several heroes and there are several superhero tropes and parallel pocket world universes. You know, the world is gonna explode because that has to always be the third act thing. The cities are crushing, but we're gonna, you know, giant buildings are falling in metropolis, but we're gonna focus on one lady's car that stops working on a bridge instead of all the people that are in that building. Right. Yeah. Some real interesting choice, but these are just like kind of common pitfall traps, things that are just part of this unfortunate language that we've developed for superhero films. So, yes, it does work, but it could be so much cleaner if it wasn't a part of superhero films as a whole.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and you know, I really like the movie, but I again, you know, with with the with the movie starting out as if you're supposed to know who Superman is, and then kind of, you know, almost this, you know, talking point of who he was, you know, I don't I don't think you get the full picture, but I did like the movie.
SPEAKER_01I we don't care if you like the movie or don't like the movie, that's not what this show is, right? This show again. Here's a hot take. Our show is about discussing continuation culture, the power of nostalgia, and sequelitis in the Hollywood machine that can't resist any of it. So whether you like it or not doesn't matter because it's here, and we're just gonna put it on the show.
SPEAKER_02No, it's here, it's it's what we got, and but I I I honestly think that this was more of a you know, a second or a third movie versus like an origin story, and and I get that. Do you love origin stories?
SPEAKER_01Because I hate origin stories.
SPEAKER_02I love origin stories, I love dogs.
SPEAKER_01They're so flunky, they're just so plunky.
SPEAKER_02I just wish they wouldn't, you know, for like the DC universe, I wish they wouldn't do it so often.
SPEAKER_01Well, because they keep trying to re-reignite the whole universe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, but they've tried to re-ignite it how many times now?
SPEAKER_01Because they don't know what they're doing, apparently. No, they don't think it isn't working.
SPEAKER_02When you say Marvel versus DC and you made me choose, I think that's where Marvel got it right, especially you know, early on.
SPEAKER_01Again, this is where I say it doesn't matter because Batman's gonna kill everything. Every time there's a Batman movie, it seemingly does incredible numbers, and that has more to do with the character and the world building and the execution of those ideas in a unique way than trying to build it as part of a bigger world, right?
SPEAKER_02And I I think more people uh you know can identify with with Batman and and his struggles internally, the struggles of being a multi-billionaire.
SPEAKER_01Everybody can identify with having money and gadgets and what to do with. And woe is me.
SPEAKER_02I'm talking about his internal struggles as far as you know, family troubles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, everybody's family problems, you know, how he's he's just a misfit, dude. Batman is just a misfit who goes and parties at night like a brat trying to beat up people because he can't resolve his own internal trauma.
SPEAKER_02And I think more people identify with that than I'm goody boy that does, you know, good and can't lie. And a goody boy.
SPEAKER_01You're a goody boy. That's my favorite thing you've ever said. I'm a goody boy who does goody things or whatever you say. I do goody things, you know.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I love honestly. I I think more people can identify with Batman than they can with Superman. You know, I mean, you know, Batman is more of just a regular guy.
SPEAKER_01I get that he's a billionaire, and you know, the difference is I think people want people aspire to be Superman. More people would aspire to be Superman and yet find themselves in the situation of unfortunately feeling like Batman. Exactly. What is the fan breaking point? When did Superman 2025 jump the rails for you? At what point were you like, oh, the fans are gonna hate this online? What's that? The sound of keyboard cowboys clacking up the internet.
SPEAKER_02This is why you you touched on this, but I for me, the thing that drove me nuts about this movie was how combative he was. Like when when he was well, he was giving that interview to Lois, and he just, you know, he was doing it as Superman. Obviously, she knows he's Superman, so there is not this, you know, having to switch back and forth. He is who he is with her, and he was just combative, he was angry, he was just all these things, you know. And I get those are emotions that everybody has, but it kind of breaks from the original film of where you know he's just this very stoic, very, you know, put together person, and uh you know, he he's supposed to, you know, he's we're past the origin story, he's supposed to be Superman now, right? And Superman because then he's finding himself that that kind of it really kind of I don't mind that Superman is a work in progress.
SPEAKER_01I don't like the bratty whininess. I think there's other ways to show vulnerability, which is what we're really talking about here. Superman is okay to be human, which is what the big speech we get at the end from him. I'm just as human as you, I'm not an alien, Lex, yada yada. I make choices, I choose to love, I make mistakes, I have hope, all that. Great. I buy into that. That's a great anchor for the character, but brattiness and impetulant behavior isn't always the way to go. You can be wise beyond your ears, especially when you have an entire planet's archive helping to teach you wisdom from your parents, and then you have your you know, parents from Earth who have, I'm sure, bestowed some knowledge upon you that that's worthwhile, where it's not about being frustrated, it's about maybe being sad and contemplative and being withdrawn. And instead of stomping away like he does, or like arguing or debating for the sake of debate instead of anything else, like they could have taken that in a different direction. I don't I think it was the wrong choice for the character. I like the setup of he's a work in progress. Not every hero, the second they put on a cape is perfect. I have no problems with heroes making mistakes because that is a human lesson that we do need to teach everybody. If a kid can walk away going, even Superman makes mistakes and learns from it, great. But I don't want I don't want my kids to see how he acts thinking that's okay to act that way because Superman act that way.
SPEAKER_02I don't I I didn't like the brattiness either. I I think the work in progress is fine. I I think, you know, again, if we're already to this point, you know, I I think we should have been past the work in progress because I feel like we're kind of getting getting a little bit of an origin, you know, where he's developing and it's like, well, okay, well, how did he develop, you know, as a young child, you know? So I I think we should have skipped past that and kind of gotten to, you know, uh the Christopher Reeves style where he's stoic and and very, you know, well put together.
SPEAKER_01If it's coming, whether it's in Man of Tomorrow, which they're filming, which is the official sequel, or whether it's his cameo crossover in Supergirl, which comes out later this month, he will probably be further along that timeline. Yes. One one thing I didn't like was the plot of the film. I think it's a bit of a jump the shark moment where Lex Luthor is behind the scenes trying to basically take over and negotiate for half of a country in oil deposits. It's like that's so weak. I mean, we know that he's really just trying to kill Superman, but the fact that that's like part of it just felt really. I don't want a film about warring nations that aren't part of North America. I see that every day. That's not escapist culture to me. Give me something else. So it's not maybe a breaking point or something that's so far-fetched from the world of Superman, but it was just like, oh, great. All right, I guess we'll just deal with that. What's one good idea?
SPEAKER_02I did enjoy the the part where the kids are holding up the Superman flag, you know, to to summon him, but then he doesn't show up. And it was like, you know, you you were like, Oh, this is the moment, you know, and then guess what? He can't be everywhere at all at once, he can't be everywhere at once, you know. It was just, it was that that part was a little bit of a letdown, that scene.
SPEAKER_01Well, what's one good idea that this film really had for you? Like, where did this or a couple things that just really crushed it where you're like, damn it, that's what I'm talking about. That's the home run for Superman. What was the moment?
SPEAKER_02You know, for me, there wasn't a big moment that this movie grabbed me. Matter of fact, you know, kind of jumping back, you know, I think another breaking point for me was that there were so many reboots. So So I was tired by this point. You know, I was just like, okay, another Superman, you know, let's see what it's got. And honestly, you know, although, you know, again, not what the show's about, you know, although I liked it, it it it didn't really there was not one point that jumped out that that grabbed me. You know, maybe the superheroes like Nathan Fellon. No, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_01I think you forgot what you mentioned at the beginning, man. You said crypto was like your favorite crypto. I mean, but it was the one good idea for you.
SPEAKER_02For you, crypto was the coolest element. It didn't it didn't steal the show from me.
SPEAKER_01It didn't say it had to steal the show, but for you, adding crypto, maybe because you're an animal guy, I'm an animal guy too. But it was like, yeah, that's a great addition to the Superman story. It didn't save the film, but that's a great way, that's a great element to put in there we haven't seen before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it didn't, it didn't put me over the top, but yeah, crypto, you know, he was probably the one good idea for me.
SPEAKER_01So it's funny you mentioned the other superheroes, the Justice Gang, where you've got Hawk Girl, Guy Gardner, the Green Lantern. Is it Mr. Terrific? Mr. Terrific.
SPEAKER_02It was just the three. Well, then you've got Mr.
SPEAKER_01Elemental that joins at the end later. So I simultaneously think this is a great idea and not a great idea. And here's why, because I think with Superman, you've got more than enough to explore. Like there's enough going on between Superman and Lex Luthor. Certainly, if you add crypto, it's not as much of a heavy lift as adding another character, right? But at the same time, these guys really help paint the state of the world, they're corporate funded as well, which is interesting, which tells you more about the world. But it's also an easy way to introduce the idea that this is Superman's not the only hero on Earth. There are other meta-humans, which is the official term that they give them, and they work in tandem, they they're available for hire, they've all got different attitudes, they're not like Superman, they believe in getting the job done in their own unique way. So they they did a there was a lot of great stuff because of the Justice Gang. I just felt like oh, there's it's a lot more that I have to deal with. And I think it's right, the runtime is exploded. But but I think when you balance the scales, the inclusion of those characters made the film better.
SPEAKER_02I I think Hot Girl drove me nuts because they kept doing this like close-up of her face, and every time they do it, she she just had this weird where she was screeching and she just weird expression on her face. And I I thought that was I I would yeah, that that that was that was something that I was just like, oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Mr. Terrific was pretty great though. He stole the show, I thought, most of the time, and so did Guy Gardner. Guy Gardner was a nice comedy foil. The the one cameo by Peacemaker as well was interesting. Again, a show I haven't seen yet, but I hear great things about, so yeah, that was uh that was pretty good.
SPEAKER_02And you know, I I I've seen the first season, and I thought the first season was well done. So, but yeah, crypto was probably the one great idea for me, and like you said, I I think that was something that we could digest a little bit easier than having it. I I felt like they made this movie way more complex than it needed to be.
SPEAKER_01I mean, there was so that's the next thing because that's part of the escalation problem, right? So is this a film that suffers from getting bigger, smaller? Is it the same scope? What changed in terms of scale? You just said the complexity changed, it's way more complex than it needed to be.
SPEAKER_02It was way more complex than it needed to be. I mean, there was so much going on that you just couldn't. I I like I I I I would get bored, you know. It was just it was just too much, you know. I mean, it was way too much, it was way too big of a film.
SPEAKER_01Is it detrimental that it's too big, or does it really set the stage for films to continue being this big? Does that mean going forward it needs to regress to something smaller? Like what is the actual escalation problem with going this big?
SPEAKER_02You know, I I think if you go smaller now, that it you know you're you're not gonna have the wow factor that this film has. I mean, it does have a wow factor, but it it was the the story was just too big and too complex to where I feel like you're gonna fall in the same rut that you've fallen into with all the other DC movies, you know, where people get bored and and they want something else, and so they just reboot it. It's like, are we gonna get a reboot, you know, after Supergirl comes out? Because we know Supergirl is coming out, you know. We're not getting a reboot, we're getting we're getting Mana tomorrow, yeah. We know it next year in production.
SPEAKER_01So that feels like a smaller film, which I think is a smart move that it's more about uh ironically, the relationship between Superman and Lex to overcome a common foe. So right away it feels like we're focusing just on that triangle. It's just about those three and and how it's gonna go down. I think we don't know yet. We'll find out. I do think that the scale is significantly bigger than the 78 film. I think it's even bigger than Man of Steel because of the inclusion of other characters, right? It just feels like there's a lot going on, but I think they had to do that to set the stage, and again, because it's a symptom of current comic book cinema culture where people expect the entire world to get destroyed, especially with Superman. How do you have a Superman film in 2025 where you don't have some sort of force that's larger than him threatening to destroy everything? It's right pretty hard to do that. So, what are the 15 different versions of what that obstacle could be? And it's a giant vortex in the water again, just like it was for man is gotten 15 different versions of it.
SPEAKER_02So, I mean, we you know, it's gotta be something different.
SPEAKER_01So it that in that regard, that hasn't actually scaled up, it's just kind of been a lateral parallel move. It's gonna be this, it's gonna be this, but it's all gonna be the same. So, what would be really interesting is to see something bigger in a thematic sense happening that's at stake rather than an actual global stakes scenario that people can buy into. Yeah. And maybe, and maybe he doesn't win the the outward battle, but there's an inner victory, right? Maybe, maybe there's something like that, right? Who knows?
SPEAKER_02Let's branch out and go to you know to some of the comic book lore to where you know he he you know he travels to different planets and and battles that, but I mean, I guess that's where super girl is going. So, you know, we're gonna I guess we're gonna see some of that, but yeah, I mean, you know, I feel like we get the same villain, you know, over and over, you know. I mean, Lex Luthor, General Zod, you know.
SPEAKER_01I believe Brainiac is the next villain, which makes sense because he's supposed to be smarter than Lex, so that that right away gives Lex motivation to you know have a superior, superior mental battle of brains kind of thing. Like, is he actually smarter than me kind of thing? Right. There's motivation for for Lex to want to overcome that and and maintain his his top of the pyramid in terms of intellectualism. What happens now? The ripple effect, man. Is there a revived interest? Is there a new audience for Superman? Is there an expanded audience for Superman as a result of this film? Is it is it just staying the same? And it's just like, okay, we're back on a new train now, we're waiting for the next thing. Or is it saturation? Is there fatigue?
SPEAKER_02I think there's fatigue. I I know I've got fatigue. I think you know, especially with the debate over you know, the Snyder verse versus James Gunn's universe, you know. I mean, it's I honestly uh I'm tired of it, you know. I I and I think that's where Marvel got it right.
SPEAKER_01Was but did Marvel get it right though? Because during COVID, man, Marvel Marvel destroyed things with their television shows. Like it there's been too much capes in spandex to begin with.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah. I think I think people have superhero fatigue, and you know, there there needs to be something different, you know. I I feel like we don't ever get any news stories anymore. I feel like everything is just regurgitated.
SPEAKER_01Well, thankfully, that's the that's good because that's why this show exists. It'll keep us keep us in business for a long time. So if you too want to be a sponsor on this never-ending show and you want your brand position next to these colossal world-famous IPs, then you just reach out today because we can help you. I'm done. Are you done? What if the sequel never happened? What's the flip side of that? What if this never comes out? Is that okay?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think if the if this never comes out, people are gonna be, you know, wanting the you know, Henry Cavill era to be continued or to to have a conclusion at least, you know. I mean, that's the same thing. It's still the same problem, right? Yeah, it's still the same problem, though.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01So, how do we fix that problem? Where a new film doesn't make it better, it only introduces new problems and and fatigue and saturation. Continuing the old stuff might not satisfy, and and even if it does wrap it up, how long until we should have waited to another Superman? Are there, you know, there could be potentially better ideas out there, but what is the problem and the cure for a Superman film in the era that we live in?
SPEAKER_02I think we need a conclusion at least to one of the stories and not a continuation. I I think, you know, I I think there's a an ultimate ending to you know to this. And oh, that's an interesting ending. And I think that's where we get the fatigue from Marvel is now all of a sudden, you know, with this multiverse, all of a sudden all the characters that we love at the beginning of the Marvel series are coming back and they're gonna play different characters.
SPEAKER_01And it was like just I I think there needs to be an ending, like very interesting idea, Nathan, because you know, uh jokes aside, that the whole point of our show is to talk about continuation culture and and why it's it's seemingly unavoidable, and are we getting better iterations of the things that we quote unquote love? But maybe all Superman needs is a good, solid, complete from beginning to end, standalone story that doesn't try to say there's more coming, that doesn't try to tease what's next, that doesn't have infinite superheroes that make you wonder what if I mean those things can be fun, but what if we just need to tell a good story that has a beginning, middle, and definitive end? I would enjoy that. I I think you inadvertently maybe hit the nail on the head because I think the problem with this film is it's designed to have a sequel. Yep, you it's not designed to tell a full story, you know, it's not designed to tell a full story, it's designed to be the beginning of something else. Yeah, but unfortunately, we get it right now. And that's exhausting, right? This is why we don't, but this is why sometimes when we hear about a great TV show that maybe we missed or we didn't have that streaming service, and it's like now available to stream all six seasons of Game of Thrones or whatever it is, it's like, well, how many episodes? Okay, there's 10 per season, they're an hour each, 60, 60 hours. Oh my god, I don't have 60 hours to do this. I'll just watch something that's new. There's lots of good stuff out there, right? And so now when you think about Superman, it's like, okay, here's the first thing. I'm kind of burnt out already because I invested in those other things over the last 15 years, they went nowhere. Now I'm gonna reinvest in in this and hoping that it goes somewhere. Just give me something that is satisfying now. And if it makes sense to have a sequel later, then make sure that that is satisfying then. Don't just open the box a la Pandora and hope that you know you can put everything back in because you can't. Right. All right, let's get to the verdict then, my friend. Here are the categories as always. All right. Was Superman 2025 a necessary evolution, a worthwhile mistake, better than expected, corporate but competent, creatively empty. Does it betray the original? Or should it have never ever happened? And of course, I want you to think about the criteria here: artistic value, franchise impact, cultural impact, emotional necessity, and legacy impact. Where does your final verdict sit?
SPEAKER_02My final verdict sits at corporate but competent because I feel like with all the reboots, no, you know, conclusions to any of the story lines that they just keep regurgitating this. And they're they're trying to make, you know, obviously Superman sells, they're trying to make a buck. You know, it it was it was a a good movie. I I think it did well at the box office. I think, you know, you know, there's a debate over whether this is better than other ones, you know, but ultimately I think they're just giving us this story over and over and over again to make a a buck. And obviously, that I mean that's the point of you know, these studios may you know, putting these movies out there is to make money off of it. But I'm I'm very fatigued on it, and I think it's corporate but competent.
SPEAKER_01That's fair, that's fair. I think this was a necessary evolution. Now, that's not to say that this was a great thing, but I think in order to get to a satisfying conclusion or an ending, you had to write the shit from all the problems that had happened in the previous entries. There's new people in charge. Superman has to be a key figure. Because of all the outside stuff in movie making in Hollywood, this is what had to happen. And I think you have to dial back the character so that he's in the learning stages or in his earlier days. So that has to be the evolutionary part, even if you don't necessarily like how it's being handled. It allows for character growth and arcs so that even Superman can learn something from the beginning to the end of the film, which is ultimately what helps make a story satisfying. So I think it's a necessary evolution, but that's just like going to the dentist. It's a necessary thing, but it doesn't make it comfortable or something you look forward to. Right. You 3D print something for all of our episodes. I'm really curious what you 3D printed for our discussion today on Superman 2025.
SPEAKER_02So this is my first time 3D printing this style. I I don't even know what the style is called, but it is kind of an artwork. And so I 3D printed this, but if you can see there are breaks between all these lines in there. So I thought this was that like a window like shimmer dreamcatcher kind of thing. Kind of. I mean, it's it's not like I mean it is pretty solid. I mean, it's it's fragile, but it's it's a lot more solid than I thought it would be. I thought it was gonna be, you know, almost, you know, like a wind chime where you know it flowed, right? But it doesn't. I mean, it's you know, one piece, it you know, it it doesn't, you know, move, but it is very fragile. So, but I thought this was was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01So that's awesome. I like it. I think it's pretty unique. As always, if you're interested in having this, all you gotta do is comment on our YouTube video here, and we'll pick a random commenter. The more you comment, the more you get your name in the draw. We'll do a random thing. Limit 10 10 comments per person in order. I mean, comment as many times as you want, but we'll only give you up to 10 10 places on the wheel, and we'll get in touch with you. That goes with everything. Uh, if you go back and watch our past episodes, maybe we haven't given it away yet. We like to do them at the end of the month. So, anyways, read the descriptions, you'll figure that out. Final thoughts, my friend, on Superman 2025. Final thoughts.
SPEAKER_02You know, even though I I said that there's fatigue, you know, I I will ultimately be excited for the next one that comes out. You know, what does it have to do for you?
SPEAKER_01What's the lesson that it has to learn?
SPEAKER_02I I think the lesson that it needs to learn is that that's a hard one because I I I think we get so many different lessons that I don't even know what the lesson is that it needs to learn. I I just I feel like I feel like that they need to stop rebooting so often without some conclusion to the story, you know, and that they need to if we're gonna have this DCU, if we're gonna have this universe, you know, before we go on to the next reboot, this needs to have a conclusion. This needs to have some sort of storyline conclusion, storyline end, so that we can move on and get to the next one without going okay, I'm I'm done, you know, because without that conclusion, I I just give up. You know, I'm like, wait, what happens to this Superman? You know, all of a sudden we've got a new Superman.
SPEAKER_01I I get that it's 12 years later, but yeah, your frustrations with the Hollywood machine, not the film. Yes. I I think my final thoughts are I'm glad this is over and done with. I was excited for it. I love the teaser poster that came out. It's very reminiscent of the 78 Superman film. Going forward, I think it has to be smaller. Smaller will be better. It allows you to focus on more characters, make it more intimate. You'll have more growth and you'll have more fun back and forth. It won't be about the world getting destroyed. It'll be about these characters pushing themselves to the limit. So I really love the idea of Superman and Lex being forced to team up, like that awkward buddy kind of film where opposites attract and they can only get through it if they know how to work together against a common foe. I think just that triangle alone, keeping it small and not about all these other heroes, these global fissures and pocket universes and all that. Which is fine. You know, keep throwing stuff at me. I got no choice but to swallow the crap that you're feeding me, but keep it, keep my mind interested, not just fed. I think that's the key. Alright, well, thanks for watching us. If you're watching us here, you know where to watch us next time. I'm one of your hosts, Rob McCallum, and I'm always joined beside my I'm always joined by my good friend Nathan the Tater Slayer. So from me, goodbye, and from him, adios. We'll see you next time, super fans. That was maybe the dumbest thing I've ever said ever. Super fans. Do you want to do it again? No, that even that's gonna make it because you know what? I don't reboot endings.
SPEAKER_02Oh it's funny.
