Snakes Tired Of Being Typecast (w/ Hollywood Snake Wrangler Jules Sylvester)

From the biblical serpent who supposedly got us kicked out of Eden to Hollywood’s endless snake pits and slithering sidekicks, snakes have carried the “evil” label longer than any other animal. In this episode of Framed by Fables, we dig into how that reputation took hold and what real snakes are actually like.

Comedian Helen Hong and Zoologist Dr. Jo Wimpenny are joined by Hollywood Snake Wrangler Jules Sylvester, the man behind the serpents in Indiana Jones, Snakes on a Plane, and dozens of other films. Together, they unpack the myths, the science, and the pop‑culture portrayals that turned snakes into storytelling’s OG villains.

But here’s the real plot twist: Once snakes get their long‑overdue PR makeover, Jo talks about another animal that actually does have some questionable behaviors (at least in human terms!)  Which one it is may surprise you! 

 Follow the show so you never miss an episode — and share it with a friend who loves animals, fairy tales, or pop culture.

Credits
Hosts:  Helen Hong & Dr. Jo Wimpenny
Guest: Jules Sylvester 

Exec Producers: Robin M. Henry, Aaron Mervis 

Producer: Emily Orr 

Line Producer:  James Lovewell 

Editor:  Alex Ivany

Artwork: Cliff Barrett  

End Card Music:  Wolves of Glendale  "I'm a Reptile Guy" 

Special Thanks:  Second Floor Studios 

Transcript

Helen Hong 0:00

Snakes. Our hatred for these things goes way back. Way, way back to like the beginning of everything. The very first lady of all time has one encounter with a snake who offers her a fruit snack, and we get kicked out of paradise, and now all of us have to wear pants. And it was all downhill from there. Indiana Jones hates them. J-Lo and Ice Cube run from them. And Samuel L. Jackson has had it with these mother bleeping snakes on this mother bleeping plane. And it seems like a lot of hate for an animal whose only way of getting around is wriggling. So have snakes been framed by fables? That's what we're gonna check out today.

Jo Wimpenny 0:54

And I'm your zoologist nerd, Joe Wimpany.

Helen Hong 0:57

And we are joined by Jules Sylvester, who has handled 10,000 snakes for Hollywood. You're the official Hollywood snake wrangler.

Jules Sylvester 1:10

I'll take that.

Helen Hong 1:10

How does one become a Hollywood snake wrangler?

Jules Sylvester 1:14

Well, um, to me, the obvious answer to that one is like, I'm pretty crappy. Anything else? I'm a lousy cook. I'm a terrible mechanic. I can't fix stuff. But I'm I'm quite good with snakes. And being raised in Kenya, animals are it. You know, this is what you you live and breathe animals and the country and the just everything about Africa is right there. It's in your soul, you know.

Helen Hong 1:36

Now, you have wrangled snakes for huge movies like Indiana Jones. Like you said multiple Indiana Jones movies.

Jules Sylvester 1:44

Yeah, done a couple of them. Um the first one I didn't do, which is like very unfortunate. I wasn't in the country then. I was like, ah, I should have done that one. But you know, we've done stuff um over the years like snakes on a plane I did with Samuel Jackson.

Helen Hong 1:56

Snakes on a plane. That's crazy that you were the snake wrangler for snakes on a plane.

Jules Sylvester 2:01

It was so much fun. We shot it in Canada and Vancouver. And uh they said, Well, how are you gonna get snakes up there? And I well, I'll drive them. I took up like 450 snakes up there in my special boxes. They said, Why did you fly? And it's like, I'm doing a movie called Snakes on a Plane. I'm bloody driving. Okay, that's it. I'm not gonna fly them up there.

Helen Hong 2:20

Now, I want to hear about snakes on a plane because it's such an iconic movie, and Samuel L. Jackson has that iconic line. How was Samuel L. Jackson with snakes?

Jules Sylvester 2:32

He was actually brilliant.

Helen Hong 2:33

Really?

Jules Sylvester 2:34

I really like working with him. He's a very funny man. But uh, he's just is you know, you're working with this guy that his I think these agents were terrified he was gonna get hurt. And it's like, stop. These are all non-venomous snakes except a cobra and a rattlesnake, which are isolated stuff. And I was told, you know, don't let Sam get stop, but never nobody gets bitten on these shows, you know. Safety, safety, safety. And uh he was told to, you know, that is everyone was saying, Don't let Sam get bitten, keep Sam away from the snakes. And at lunchtime he'd come around and handle the snakes in the snake room. Oh wow. He had no fear of the snakes at all. He was really good with them, you know. We did shots of him sitting on the toilet with his trousers down by his ankles. We had snakes in his underwear and stuff, and it's like reading a newspaper, you know. But they never showed any of that stuff. It was like really funny stuff. Lovely guy, lovely guy.

Helen Hong 3:21

For both of you, I want to ask: how are snakes perceived in pop culture and how that is correct or incorrect?

Jo Wimpenny 3:28

I mean, universally, pretty badly, I would say. Um the roots go back a very long way. You know, we're going back to uh to pretty much when Christianity decided that snakes were the embodiment of evil. So everything the world of snakes just became this religious quest that, you know, they were basically the Satan in animal form. And ever since snakes have just been perceived as these sly, sinister um animals that are gonna, you know, whisper malevolent things at you. They are definitely thought of as villainous um and evil. And that's basically their role in stories.

Helen Hong 4:16

Joe, are snakes actually sneaky and sneaking around your back and like trying to just stab you in the face?

Jo Wimpenny 4:26

Stab you in the face, yes. I love it, with their no no arms to hold anything, but maybe they could hold a knife in their mouth and then stab you. Um, no, they're not at all. So, and you know, I'd love to also hear your views on this, Jules, but um you know, snakes are generally they're just they look so different to us that I think people have this kind of instinctive response that all they they move weirdly, they must be out to get us. Um and they can't help the way that they move. They can't help the fact that they don't have facial expressions, so they can't, you know, communicate what they're actually thinking to us. Their faces are very much fixed in place, they don't blink, which is also a bit weird, I think, for most people.

Helen Hong 5:18

They don't blink.

Jo Wimpenny 5:20

Oh yeah, so like weird, right? I think it's hard for people to emotionally connect with an animal that is just so weird looking and different looking to what we are like. But um, from everything I've heard and people I've talked to, snakes are mostly just quite scared because we are a lot more dangerous to them by and large. Um and there's this great quote that I've heard from um Clifford Pope, this herpetologist, who said that snakes are firstly cowards and then bluffers, and last of all warriors. So he's sort of saying that most of the time they they want to get away. Um if they can't, then they might put on a display of threat. So like a hooded cobra might raise its hood, or you know, rattlesnake might start rattling. And it's really only when there's no other option and they feel so threatened that they're gonna strike.

Jules Sylvester 6:19

Yeah, we we tend to anthrop anthropomorphize these animals, you know. We we go Disney on them. You know, and it's like hello, you know, stick your teeth out and tongue out, flick flick, and it's like But it's I I think the thing about snakes and it what surprises people is they're silent. You don't see the buggers, you know, you'll be sitting here and it's like, oh, where the hell did that come from? It's under the chair. It got in through the door, you know. And I see people with the snake fencing, especially here in in Southern California, they've got snake fencing around, which is a small mesh, put around, but they forget about the gate. You know, so you basically funneled everything into the gate and it's coming through the front door. You know, how did it get in here? Well, the gate, you know, because when you open the gate there's always a gap underneath, and so the snakes are funneled along the fence, they go along the fence, especially rattlesnakes, they don't climb very well. They do climb, but not, you know, have a fence you know three feet tall, it won't climb over there, it'll go around the edges and find a gap and come in. And uh the rattlesnake is very, very quiet and they curl up and their camouflage is perfect. And uh it's you know that everyone has the idea that the baby's the worst, but they're not. They're just it's just a rattlesnake. The venom is still the venom, it's still the venom. But the reason that people are terrified of the babies um this somehow got out that the babies are worse, it's like because more people get bitten by the babies, because like for a gardener, the baby can curl up under a dollar bill. Brand spanking, brand new, they're like maybe seven inches long, and they'll curl up literally underneath a coffee cup or something like that. So you go and put your hand under the bushes where you don't see no snake there, and think you've got a fang in the finger, and it's like, ah, what was that? Uh-oh. And the tail is going, there's no rattle yet. Every time he sheds the skin, he gets a new link. So you would you would hear it as older they gets, the more rattles. And of course, then of course they fall off eventually and they keep growing new ones.

Helen Hong 8:07

So the babies are shaking their tail, but there's no sound.

Jules Sylvester 8:09

There's no sound yet until they got at least two or three rattles, and then you hear chch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch chat. And as they get older, you get you know five or six or ten links, but then every time they shed the skin, they get another link at the bottom. It's just dried skin. And sometimes they fall off, so you end up with two or three. But the the noises is like hissing. It's like, what is that? It sounds like some water escaping, and you like look down and go, ah, yeah, fuck it. It's right by your foot.

Helen Hong 8:35

So maybe that's the reason why people were freaked out by them at the beginning is because of the silentness.

Jules Sylvester 8:42

It's it's a silent.

Helen Hong 8:43

There's nothing that's warning you.

Jules Sylvester 8:45

It's like a ninja. You know, they creep up behind you and go, Hello.

Helen Hong 8:49

The ninja of animals.

Jules Sylvester 8:51

Animal ninja, yeah. And it's got no arms or legs. I kill you. It's like, Jesus, what the hell? Why?

Helen Hong 8:58

What percentage of snakes are venomous?

Jules Sylvester 9:01

I'd say almost like 10%, 15%, maybe. Australia, probably 25 or 30%, a little more. For some reason, Australian snakes are absolute buggers, you know. Yeah. But then again, everything in Australia will kill you.

Helen Hong 9:14

Right. Australia's its own, its own thing. Yeah.

Jules Sylvester 9:18

It's just it's it's incredible. I did a show from you know, from the ocean to the mountains, and every little part of that vegetation, sea, ocean, mountain, hill rocks, there's something there that'll kill you. And they're all bad. None of it's good. Even the damp plants at the top of the mountain, you wipe your bum with that one, you'd be stinging your ass for about ten years. It's just terrible.

Helen Hong 9:40

So there's nothing inherently sneaky about snakes except the fact that we encounter them because of their silence and because they're they're just trying to hang out in in little places that happen to be where we are.

Jules Sylvester 9:54

Yeah, they're looking for warmth and food. And this time of the year, also females. And right now, uh or just about a month ago, you see there's a lot of snake bites in the in the Camarillo area, Thousand Oaks area where we where I live. It's um there were like six or seven rattlesnake bites in a month, and it's like, that's kind of weird. Well, not really, because it's the males come out and they're full of testosterone, and they're all pissed off and they're fighting each other. You do that thing where they roll and everyone thinks they're breeding. No, that's the males fighting. They don't bite each other, but they knock each other down. But they're pumped up, and you go near them and say, What are you doing? And you go, I kill you! And everybody wants to die, you know. I've seen them bite a couple of horses in Moor Park and they died. And a horse horse died from a rattlesnake bite. Yeah, they went out to investigate what the snakes were doing, and the snakes bit them in the neck or the face and killed over.

Helen Hong 10:43

Wow. I I love that snakes have testosterone. Testosterone is a big problem.

Jules Sylvester 10:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Helen Hong 10:50

Across across species, testosterone is so problematic.

Jules Sylvester 10:55

You know, it's a real problem to me. I'm quite jealous. Not only do they have a lot of testosterone, but they also have two peckers. Two penis.

Helen Hong 11:03

Two penises.

Jules Sylvester 11:04

Yeah, they're called hemipens, yeah. And they have two of them. I don't know if you're right-handed or left-handed. I don't know what the hell that's for.

Helen Hong 11:11

What do do lady snakes have two vaginas?

Jules Sylvester 11:13

Nope, one. They got one cloaca.

Helen Hong 11:15

What?

Jules Sylvester 11:16

It's like a bird. It's a butt and a vagina at the same time. I don't know which how how do they know which one is what? I don't know. Because it goes through one entrance and sorts itself out. I don't know.

Helen Hong 11:25

So there's so there's two penises and one's just a backup penis?

Jules Sylvester 11:28

I guess so. But you know, when they're mating, one's dragging behind them. It's like, that's got to be irritating.

Helen Hong 11:34

Oh, wow.

Jules Sylvester 11:36

That's why they go in the trees, I guess. I don't know.

Helen Hong 11:39

I don't know whether that contributes to the slander or to not, but two penises is overkill.

Jules Sylvester 11:46

Yeah, I I'm kind of jealous, really, to honestly. Well the thing about the snakes is um when you when you see the snake, they look venomous. And some of these snakes are just so incredibly beautiful. I mean, there's no other word for it. I've I've got these green tree pythons, they're bright green, and they're about this thick, and they're about six feet long. And you just think, how the hell did that happen? It was just and they're all exactly the same when they're born. They're like stunning. And I, you know, I to kill that would be like, no, don't don't do that. It's it's perfect. It's it's a perfect animal. It's it's it's it hasn't changed in millions of years, and it's like this is what it's supposed to be, you know. We're evolving. The snakes already evolved a long time back, you know.

Jo Wimpenny 12:29

Wow.

Jules Sylvester 12:30

Along with the crocodiles and the tortoises, they're all perfect as they are. And in our minds, we want to change them and kill them and get them out of the way, but it's like, no, they're they're just perfect.

Helen Hong 12:41

Well, um I want to ask you both, because of the fact that snakes have been so vilified over the course of history, has there been like a concerted effort over the years to kill snakes, to eradicate snakes?

Jules Sylvester 12:55

Yes, in Florida. The Burmese python. Um, they got loose after a hurricane, I think, I don't know which hurricane it was, but it did some terrible damage to the buildings. And a lot of these uh um there's a there's a couple of people that had were breeding pythons for, you know, the pet trade or something like that. And they're they're fantastic snakes, but they got loose and they started breeding prolifically in the Everglades. It's perfect, you know, for them. And of course now they're devastating all the wildlife down there. They're eating everything, including alligators. Yeah, and they get to you know sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen feet. That's a big snake, it's two hundred pounds, you know. And they'll take not to say people, but they have been known to take people, not those so much, but uh they they take everything, right down to um raccoons and uh foxes and and deer of every kind, you know. So they can do a tremendous amount of damage. So this they're trying to eradicate them. But you they're finding pythons that you know they they got dogs now that can sniff them out. And I saw a video of some guys and they found three nests with about a hundred and fifty eggs. And this this just keeps going, and it's just you can't get rid of them. They're born, they're about eighteen inches long, pfft, they disappear. So probably in the in the Everglades, they're probably about maybe ten percent or fifteen percent live. Because other predators are eating them too. But they taking mice, rats, raccoons, possums, uh just everything is getting eaten. Yeah, chihuahuas, no problem with that. Yeah. Zip. Delicious. If they had fingers, they licked the fingers, but it it's it's devastating and it's doing a lot of damage.

Helen Hong 14:26

So in that case, there's a there's actually a a reason, like a legitimate reason why they're hunting pythons because then the wrong place. Joe, has there been historically like a like an eradication program for snakes?

Jo Wimpenny 14:39

Um I think there's mostly just been a lot of persecution. Um things like rattlesnake roundups. Yeah. I don't know if you if you know of those, but events which historically had a purpose in the sense that you know rattlesnakes are dangerous to people. Um so it made sense to to try and kill them, but now they've kind of evolved into these big weekend festivals in a way that attract lots of people um for the spectacle of seeing thousands of rattlesnakes being killed. Uh and that's not that's not that's moved so far away from its original purpose to me, it's now more of a it's more of an economic kind of event rather than trying to control populations of something. Because people have to go quite a long way to catch the snakes. You know, they need to they get an incentivized for bringing the snakes in, so they actually get paid on like the weight of snake they might bring in. And then all the snakes are tipped into a big tank and kept there, and then at the event they're all they're all killed um and skinned and cooked up and served to people.

Jules Sylvester 15:54

Yeah, I went to one of those roundups a few years back and it was like I was just it, you know, for me is a uh I I see the rattlesnake as this perfect animal, and it's like there are thousands of them. I mean they do this every year. It's really weird. Yeah, we eat rattlesnakes, and it's like, okay, you how are you gonna eat it? Well, we're gonna mix it up with some salsa and do this and do that. It's like you know that tastes like chicken, right? You wouldn't know the difference. But it's the Apollo, but they do this every year, and they've done it since the 1930s. Every year, between five and eight thousand snakes killed and it's like why? And here's the thing the population hasn't seemed to have dropped. So I don't know why or how, I don't know how I've done the logistics of that, but if you can catch 8,000 snakes every year for the past since nine years. They're breeding, but I mean they it's like stop killing a buggers, you know. You know, it just for me it just it was appalling. I was like uh really shocked, you know.

Helen Hong 16:56

Well, going back to how dangerous the venomous snakes can be, though, let's talk about useful information if you do encounter a poisonous snake.

Jo Wimpenny 17:08

Okay, so just a quick side note here the terms poisonous and venomous are often used interchangeably, um, but there's actually a fundamental difference. So while it's right to say that poisons and venoms are both types of toxic chemicals that are produced by organisms, they differ fundamentally in the way that the toxins get into the victim. So a really good and easy way to think about it is that if you bite something and then you die, then that animal was poisonous. And if that animal bites you and you die, then it's venomous.

Jules Sylvester 17:46

The one big thing they say about the rattlesnakes here, do not use the tournique.

Helen Hong 17:51

Don't oh, don't tie it off.

Jules Sylvester 17:53

Yeah, don't tie it off. Um immobilize the heart. I don't know if it's below the heart or above the heart. I can't remember if it's one of those. I'm gonna read that. Um, but immobilize it, lower the um stop that use a pressure bandage, but you must be able to feel the heartbeat below it. Yeah, so it you could slow it down. That helps a lot. Immobilise and go to hospital, and hopefully they have the antivenom there.

Helen Hong 18:14

So don't tie it tight.

Jules Sylvester 18:15

No, just slide it. Tie it a little bit. Pressure down, yeah. And no coffee, no tea, no stimulants, no I've seen people, you know, take a shot of whiskey and now pour the whiskey and cut and slice, and it's like, don't do that. You just cut it deeper, you know. You've already got two little pinpricks, why wouldn't you put a big slash and they said make an X and all the sort of terrible things to do? Don't do that.

Helen Hong 18:34

You you uh can you suck it out? Like sometimes you can hear like No, it's already gone with a heartbeat.

Jules Sylvester 18:40

It's like and you know, they can you can dab it and try and get the venom sometimes the venom left in the skin. But if you've got um any kind of irritation in your gums here, open capillaries in your gums, and you go now you've got a snake bite in the mouth. It's like talking like this, it's like, what happened to you? I don't know, I suck the venom. It's like bad idea, don't do that.

Helen Hong 19:01

And they make these amazing Don't suck the venom because it'll end up in your mouth.

Jules Sylvester 19:07

In your mouth, and you better spit and wash out, yeah. But they make these really stupid things, a little snake bite kit. You know, they've got little tournique and a little razor blade, and it's like, what's that for? And then a little rubber suction thing, and it's like you put it on and leave it on. And it's like, no. You know, that's 25 bucks, you know, and it's like and it comes with a little kit. I got my snake bite kit and I throw it away, for God's sake, just immobilize and go to the hospital.

Helen Hong 19:29

So if you're in the wild and you encounter a snake that has not bit you and you're not sure if it's venomous, what is what are you supposed to do? Are you supposed to back away slowly?

Jules Sylvester 19:41

No, just go away.

Helen Hong 19:43

Just go away.

Jules Sylvester 19:44

Just go away, yeah.

Helen Hong 19:45

You don't have to back away slowly.

Jules Sylvester 19:47

No, just like, oh look, snake, go the other way.

Helen Hong 19:49

So run.

Jules Sylvester 19:50

No, just walk away. Walk away. And everyone goes, oh my god, oh my god. Rocks. Oh, that's right. Just piss it off some more, you know.

Helen Hong 20:00

Don't grow rocks.

Jules Sylvester 20:01

No, just go away.

Helen Hong 20:02

Don't make aggressive noises.

Jules Sylvester 20:05

They're deaf. They're deaf. Yeah. My wife, my wife is, she's been with me 40 years, and she knows I deal with snakes every day. So her and her friend were walking through the bush, and she said, My wife's got a water bottle. She's got, what are you doing? I'm trying to scare the snakes away. Honey, they're deaf. So kacka kacka with the water bottle, it doesn't do anything. It's like, okay.

Helen Hong 20:28

It's not like a bear where you can go, bear.

Jules Sylvester 20:33

Have little bells on your feet and everything. You can't.

Jo Wimpenny 20:37

I actually have a story of encountering a rattlesnake. You can share what we did. Yeah. Because obviously we don't have we only have one venomous snake species in the UK, which is the adder, which is very secretive and we don't see it very often. I think the last person to die of an adder bite was, it was like 1970 something. So, you know, it's just it's so rare here. But we were hiking in Pinnacles National Park um a couple of years ago and up this dusty path, and we saw what we thought was a branch just across the path ahead of us, and then we got closer and we were like, ah, that is a snake. Oh, that's a rattlesnake. So this is the first time I'd ever seen a rattlesnake, actually. And it was just stretched across the path in front of us. And obviously, we needed to get past this snake, and so we were kind of like, yeah, what do we do? We're British. We were trained to know what to do in this situation. But I thought, you know, I know that they are very sensitive to vibrations. So what we did was actually to just stamp our way up the path, you know, just stomping on the ground as we went up, and it just worked beautifully. It slid, it just slid off the path away into the bushes, and we just walked, you know, calmly past it. And, you know, there was a little defiant rattle. Sound as we walk past, but but that was that. And it was a very nicely settled encounter, I think.

Jules Sylvester 22:06

So you know it's just it's a good story, right there.

Jo Wimpenny 22:08

Don't threaten it.

Jules Sylvester 22:09

Yeah. The vibration actually have to be pretty heavy vibrations as well. But yeah, good stamping on the thing helps a bit. Sometimes they're asleep. But you don't know that because they're like they're sunbathing. It's like, oh, this is good. Lying on the road at night or someday in the morning or the late afternoon, they're sunbathing just before the dark, you know. And they're asleep, and it's like you stamp your feet and they go, sh one moment, I'll be coffee? And then they wake up groggy and they're gonna be like, Yeah, they wake up a little bit groggy and they go, Oh god, I'm just really no and they crawl off slowly, like, I'm right here, okay. I know we see you. Like, yeah, okay, just warning you.

Helen Hong 22:42

I love that. Okay, so they're deaf, don't scream at them, but they can feel vibrations, so stamp loudly, and they'll be like, Okay, somebody is coming, and they'll slither off.

Jules Sylvester 22:54

Sometimes. Yeah, it it there's no there's no rule here, you know. It was perfect for you if that worked great. But sometimes they say, Oh, really? And they curl up and like, I kill you. And it's like, oh, for God's sakes, just just go away. No.

Helen Hong 23:09

And they say that and he's like Jules, I'm not gonna lie, you're not contributing to the concept of I know, but it's like there's there's no rule.

Jules Sylvester 23:18

It's like, you know, Jules, how do you catch a venomous snake? And I say, Okay, did you get it in the bucket? Yes. Is it okay? Yes. Are you okay? Yes. Then that's how you did it. You know, I I I caught a black bomber, my first black bomber in Rhodesia, Zimbabwe. I had a pair of cutoff jeans, I climbed up this tree, a long branch, and this eleven foot mamba was gonna jump into another tree, and I said it was gonna get shot because it was somebody's yard. And I thought, oh, I've got to catch it. I don't know why, it's 20 years old, you're so stupid. And I got a three-foot grab stick and I reached out and I grabbed this eleven foot mamba by the tail. He didn't like that. And it turned around and came to eat me, you know, because it was very angry. And there's a little stick on a branch like that, and it went on the other side of that stick and it stopped about maybe a foot from my hand, and it's like, oops. And there I sat. Um I was thirty feet up in a tree, on a branch that had nothing else on it. I had a pair of cutoff jeans, that was it. Um I think, well that was the dumbest thing I've ever done. And I've done a lot more since then, but then that was one of them. And I said that fifteen minutes and people taking photographs of me up there, look at that brave boy, he's so stupid, you know. I think I gotta get out of this. I don't know how to see you feel the tail slipping slowly through the tongues. It was like, oh god, I'm gonna die. I thought, wait, I'm a primate, so I hung upside down, I hung up with my legs, and there's a branch about ten feet below me. I said, Okay, here's what I'm gonna do. And then my mind, I gotta tick tock. This is fifteen minutes, I'm shaking like a leaf now. Release the legs, then the hat. Release the legs, then the hand, and he catched that big branch underneath. I'm a monkey, I can do this. He goes, Legs, hand, psh, missed the branch, boom, all the way down. Complete somersault, land on this guy's lawn with the wind knocked out of me. I just like, oh my god, I thought I think I just died. And this old boy from the Indian army came out and said, Hello, boy, are you doing all right? And he did these things, trying to get my wind back. He said, Did you get bitten? I have no idea. I'm covered in scratches, I realized I was stockbullock naked. My shorts are up the tree, and the snake's banging up my shorts. That was one of those horrible days. But that's you know, don't piss off the snake, and he will and he was pissed off. I eventually caught the snake, but it was like that was a good example. Don't do that. Yeah.

Helen Hong 25:31

Okay, so they're not inherently evil. No. And they're not trying to sneak up on you, but if you make them angry, they're gonna defend themselves. That's that's it, that's the bottom line. Okay, so there is a myth that if you pee on a snake bite, that that's good, that'll help.

Jules Sylvester 25:50

Um no, but you know, other being that's really disgusting. It's like, oh my god, it it's just uric acid, that's not gonna do anything. It just makes you smell bad. But there was a thing that if you get spat in the eye by a cobra, now the the venom is um basically an alkaline, and urine is an acid. And one should neutralize the other. But that's in a extreme case where there's nothing else. You know, um, you could pee in the guy's eye, but there's gonna be a lot of fighting going on, they can tell you that. Hold him down, boys, I got him. And you have a lot of friends volunteering for that one.

Helen Hong 26:25

That's right, because you can't it's hard to pee on yourself.

Jules Sylvester 26:27

Yeah, no, yeah, unless you hang outside like a ragged tank and pee in your eyes, hang it from a branch. But yeah, if you can that's a last case, there's nothing else. And the other one was, of course, uh, lactic acid from milk. That there's you've got to pour milk in the iron. It's like, has anyone tried just fresh water? Yeah. Maybe you could try water? Don't don't pee on it. Don't pee on it. It's it's fest as nasty. I don't know who thought that one out. Probably some guy with the sense of humor. Don't worry, hold them right. It's not even venomous. Just pee on it.

Helen Hong 26:56

Wash it out with water.

Jules Sylvester 26:56

Yeah, wash it out.

Helen Hong 26:59

Just overkill. So, Joe, if snakes are not the sneaky, conniving, evil animal that you know culture has made them out to be. What other animal might actually fit those descriptions?

Jo Wimpenny 27:16

Well, I thought a little bit about this as which animals could we truly think of as evil? And obviously, I'm gonna caveat this. I'm a zoologist, so we can't really talk about any animal as being evil. That's a very, very human construct. However, I do want to bring up sea otters because they aren't being described. That's great. One person who does research on them, I I heard this person on a podcast say they are literally evil, these animals. So sea otters, the cute and furry. Right.

Jules Sylvester 27:54

It's camo.

Helen Hong 27:55

Yeah.

Jo Wimpenny 27:57

Everybody thinks that they are so cute and adorable, you know, they are just sort of bobbing around, holding hands, you know. Yeah. Sea otters, so cute. No, they're they are they are extremely um vicious little animals. Males in particular, and it's probably probably is the testosterone again, isn't it? Um they they abuse females when they're mating with them. No, they will sometimes drown them, they bite them to hold them down, and so they will bite chunks out of the female's nose, for example, to sort of pin them down. They hold female's offspring hostage while the female is is hunting. So while she's under the water looking for fish, hunting for fish, a male might come along and actually just take the pup hostage, and it will only give it back if the female gives him her food. No!

Helen Hong 28:55

So yes, extortion it.

Jo Wimpenny 29:00

Kidnapping! Right, and the absolute worst thing, and so all of this is bad, you know, in human terms. What they also do, male seotters, is kidnap baby harbour seals and rape them. So they they they will actually sexually assault.

Jules Sylvester 29:19

What the hell's the matter with these guys?

Jo Wimpenny 29:21

Oh so um, and they usually end up killing them. No! So yeah, I'm sorry, it's distressing. Um, and it's it's been recorded that they will then carry the bodies around and continue. So there's necrophilia going on there too.

Helen Hong 29:38

Oh no.

Jo Wimpenny 29:39

Um my god.

Helen Hong 29:42

So that's terrible.

Jo Wimpenny 29:45

Of course, you know, these are these are traits that in human society we would um we would say these are particularly abhorrent traits.

Helen Hong 29:55

That I you know, when I was thinking about you saying I was like, because we were thinking about evil, you know, that snakes are considered evil, and I was like, what is Joe gonna say an animal is evil? And now I'm like, oh my god, sea otters are evil.

Jules Sylvester 30:13

Well, I I've dealt with otters before, but have you know, sea otters seem to be particularly nasty. I mean every time I I went I was in the Edinburgh Zoo for a year when I got out of school, and uh they said, Okay, Jules, you're gonna take care of the otters, you're gonna feed the otters. Okay. I put on my wellies, put my Wellington boots on, they climbed over the wall. And these bloody otters went straight at me and they bit holes in my wellies and I jumped back over the wall, and that little bastard tore my wellingtons to pieces. No. And the crew at that zoo people are just laughing heads off. They're like, ha ha ha ha ha. It's like, that's not funny, man. That little bat, I was gonna kick him. You know, like horrible things. But sea otters, I think. Yeah, um, when they, you know, they they uh get the abalonian and stuff, and they have their own special rock.

Helen Hong 30:53

Right. And they lie on their backs and they go to crack open the crackers.

Jules Sylvester 30:57

I can imagine that'd be kind of irritating if you miss and hit a nipple, you know, that would like make your eyes water a bit. Like the wonder they're pissed off is like, ah, Jesus Christ. I'm gonna go and kill somebody, you know.

Helen Hong 31:08

Joe, my mind is blown, and I feel like this goes to the idea that we anthropomorphized and we're like, oh, sea otters are so cute, and they hold hands. Meanwhile, they are literally evil, they're sexually assaulting, necrophilizing, um you know, uh uh like biting chunks. Yeah, I mean, kidnapping, extortioning. That is outrageous. And then meanwhile, these snakes are just like innocently just hiding under rocks, and we're like, oh, they have no arms and facial expressions, they must suck.

Jules Sylvester 31:46

Well, they they uh they do resort to cannibalism on certain things, you know. There's certain snakes that eat other snakes, like the cobras are cannibalistic. No, oh yeah, they'll eat anybody.

Helen Hong 31:56

But I feel like a little light cannibalism is not worse than raping and necrophiliazing.

Jules Sylvester 32:02

Yeah, that's kind of gross.

Helen Hong 32:04

Yeah. I mean, I guess it's yeah. Yeah. I'm just trying to think, like, historically, if you swapped out sea otters for like every time a snake has like, can you imagine? I've had it with these mother-[Bleep] sea otters on this mother-[Bleep] plane It just doesn't hit quite the same.

Jules Sylvester 32:23

People get, oh, that's not right. No, it's very right. It's very right.

Helen Hong 32:27

Or like, can you imagine Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and there's a sea otter that's like, hey, have this apple.

Jules Sylvester 32:35

I'm just washing here and it's like, would you like a fish? Thank you very much. Oh, you bastard. It's a setup.

Helen Hong 32:42

Or Indiana Jones. Indiana Jones being thrown into a pit of sea otters. Like that's just so funny.

Jules Sylvester 32:48

That'd be terrifying. That'd be terrifying.

Helen Hong 32:51

I mean, you know it's terrifying because you've interacted with sea otters, but I think the general public would be like, that's adorable. Meanwhile, they jump in this the pit and they're being shredded to pieces.

Jules Sylvester 33:01

And yeah, there's a in South America, there's a bloody huge otter. Um at I can't remember the name of it, but it's about six feet long.

Helen Hong 33:09

No.

Jules Sylvester 33:09

And they're like water leopards or something like that. But they're in these dams in Brazil, I've looked at them and uh they could smell them like half a mile away, the the fish. And you go there and they all pop up thing like don't go s they'll bite the hell out of you.

Jo Wimpenny 33:26

Well, it's very tempting to look at these behaviours and view them in a human way and think about them as being depraved or malicious or any of these things. In sea otters, as much as it pains me to say it, they're not being evil, they are purely being driven by uh survival strategies and reproductive strategies and instinctive behaviours that have been shaped over evolutionary time.

Helen Hong 33:53

So both of you being animal experts would way rather be in a s pit full of snakes than in a pool full of sea otters. Oh yeah.

Jo Wimpenny 34:03

I would have to say as long as they were non-venomous snakes, I'd probably still go. Given that such a small proportion are venomous. Um people I think just think all of them as venomous, and then if they're scared of them, they'll just kill, you know, kill them on sight. But um I think it's worth remembering that a lot of them can't actually do you that much harm. Yeah, do not. It's unnecessary.

Helen Hong 34:29

Okay, so you know what, Jules? I I noticed that you're you showed up wearing the shortest shorts I think I've ever seen on a man that's not on a beach. Nah. And I I can't imagine why someone who handles snakes would wear shorts. Have you ever been bitten by a snake?

Jules Sylvester 34:50

Um bitten by a snake, yeah. The non-venomous ones, but they don't really count. Um little nips here and there over the years probably bite.

Helen Hong 34:56

So they do so non-venomous ones will bite. Oh, yeah, everybody. And it hurts.

Jules Sylvester 35:00

Not really. That's it. It's it's uh pythons hurt. I've been bitten once by a large python, that was it for me. I that was a long time ago. Um over the years, probably about maybe no more than twenty times. But that's that's the non-venomous snake.

Helen Hong 35:14

Joe, he's only been bitten twenty times.

Jules Sylvester 35:16

By non-venomous snakes. I'd never been bitten by a venomous snake ever. And they've hit everywhere. They've hit my fingernails, they hit my watch, hit my bracelets, uh, went through my hair and gone into my top pocket.

Helen Hong 35:26

What?

Jules Sylvester 35:27

Um yeah, hit my wallet.

Helen Hong 35:29

I mean, just I don't know how it just So what are you supposed to do if you get bit by a non-venomous snake?

Jules Sylvester 35:35

Yeah, ow, and bugger. And and that's about it.

Helen Hong 35:38

Okay, we have a game involving snakes that, Jules, I would love you to play. Okay. Um, and it's basically snake superlatives. So, like, you know when you have a yearbook and you s you know, there's like, you know, most likely to succeed and and like funniest classmate, whatever. Yeah. So these are these are like if you were to put snakes in a yearbook. Okay. And what types of snakes. Okay, so uh most likely to pretend it's harmless, but it's absolutely not.

Jules Sylvester 36:10

Uh puff at her.

Helen Hong 36:12

Puff at her?

Jules Sylvester 36:13

Yeah.

Helen Hong 36:14

How does it pretend it's not harmless?

Jules Sylvester 36:16

It's got his cousin, Gaboon Viper. They're beautiful. And they've got a head like this in a five-foot puff adder or a gaboon viper, their head about the size of a small dish, and they've got the longest fangs in the world. They're like on a on a five-foot gaboon viper, they're almost two inches long. And they don't move. Their whole point is their camouflage. And it's it's a terrifying snake, but it's so beautiful, and you think, oh my god, look at the colours on that. And you can actually touch it on occasion and it doesn't move. And yet, if you throw a dead rat, it'll catch it in the middle of like a bap and it's got it, and it's like fangs go right through the rat. It's like it's like being hit by a forklift. You know, can you imagine that? And it's it's so fast and so violent, and it didn't do anything until you did something, and it just explodes like a firecracker. And it's always shocking, you know. It's like, oh, good.

Helen Hong 37:12

So it goes from zero to sixty in like nanoseconds.

Jules Sylvester 37:18

Yeah, it's it's very impressive, actually.

Helen Hong 37:20

Okay, so don't throw what kind of snake was that?

Jules Sylvester 37:22

Uh and viper or a puff adder.

Helen Hong 37:25

Puff adder. So if you encounter a puff adder, yeah, don't throw a rodent at it. Or do, if you want to see zero to sixty in point two seconds. Snake that is the biggest drama queen.

Jules Sylvester 37:38

Oh, there's two. There's a hognose snake, and then there's one in South Africa called a Ray Khalse. It's a it's a similar splitting cobra, but if you tease it too much, it lies on his back and goes and it pretends it's dead. And it's like, did I kill it by tissing it off? And it's like you pick it up and it's like it's looking at you. It can't close its eyes, it's staring at you. Wait for it, wait for it. And you just it's dead, and you put it on the ground, and you go, It died. Then you turn around, it's gone. Oh and it just lied. It's like time, I mean, literally the tongue comes out, his mouth is open, dirt in it, and it's like and the hognose snake does the same thing.

Helen Hong 38:20

It like plays possum.

Jules Sylvester 38:22

Yeah, possibly just like that.

Helen Hong 38:23

Most likely to show up in your toilet.

Jules Sylvester 38:29

I know of a few, but cobra.

Helen Hong 38:31

Cobra.

Jules Sylvester 38:32

Yeah.

Helen Hong 38:32

There was one in Singapore that are venomous.

Jules Sylvester 38:35

Oh yeah.

Helen Hong 38:37

And they show up in your toilet. Yeah, yeah. And they could possibly bite you in the most private areas. Yeah. The most delicate areas.

Jules Sylvester 38:44

And at your at your worst place, you know, pants down by your ankles and everything hanging out, and it's like pops up and he's not happy.

Helen Hong 38:52

Does that happen in Australia? Of course it does.

Jules Sylvester 38:55

I I'm sure it does. I know one in Singapore, and the other guy sat in the toilet and a cobra came up and bit him in the bollocks.

Helen Hong 39:01

So if you are in Singapore, and obviously Australia, check the toilet seat for snakes.

Jules Sylvester 39:07

It's in the bowl. Oh, they were probably sitting with the head out of the water, and you come and lift up the lid, it goes, ooh, bloop, backs up.

Helen Hong 39:16

Down the pipes.

Jules Sylvester 39:17

Down the round the corner. He can hold his breath for about 15 minutes sometimes. Then you sit on the toilet, yeah. And there's dangly things hanging down for us, and it's like the bloody snake comes up, it's like, is that a rat? And bites you in the bollocks. Or it maybe, you know, not having because you got shot on or something. I don't know. I was never there.

Helen Hong 39:41

If you're someone who has bollocks, don't dangle them in front of a face of a snake. The snake might mistake your bollocks for something tasty. So, you know, note to bollocks owners. Don't dangle them in front of a snake. You know, I'm I'm not sure, Jules, after hearing some of your stories, that we're really doing snakes justice. Like we were supposed to have this episode like non-vilifying snakes, and you're like, well, actually.

Jules Sylvester 40:17

Well, you know, there are thousands and thousands of snakes in it. I I I personally just are fascinated and adore snakes. And uh so my whole life is revolves around snakes and reptiles. This is what I do for the past 60 years, and I can't get out of that groove. It's like, you know, I'm supposed to quit soon because I'm getting older, and it's like, no, I kind of enjoying this right now.

Helen Hong 40:40

So so you've handled 10,000 snakes. Around the world, yeah. Most of them are fine. Most of them are are very friendly and nice. Yeah.

Jules Sylvester 40:47

Well but you know, gentle, but you know, don't piss them off, you know.

Helen Hong 40:51

Got it. Don't piss them off.

Jules Sylvester 40:54

I think it's just the uh it's it's uh in our our background, you know, the Adam and Eve thing, and it's like that's evil, and we're taught everything is like that is evil, but it's like it's really not. But the trouble is when you get bitten by a snake, that just every story you've heard is like that's exactly why I s I'm terrified of snakes. We it just every movie I do, the snakes are the bad guy. There's no such thing as a good snake movie, you know. There's the the mother -bleep snakes in the plane, and uh I just did one with um uh Brad Pitt a couple of years ago called Bullet Train. And uh the snake goes through and of course it's it's killing people, you know. It's it it's always the bad guy. And every now and again the snake wins, you know, which is quite good. I like that. But uh it it's always vilified in every movie you've ever done. There's no such thing as a a snake in the movie that's a good snake. And it just amplifies everything about snakes that get a bad rap. And they're not that bad. I'm still here, you know. I've been doing it sixty years and it's like they're pretty cool.

Helen Hong 41:49

So bottom line, leave them alone.

Jules Sylvester 41:52

Yeah.

Helen Hong 41:52

Leave 'em alone and they're cool.

Jules Sylvester 41:54

Don't kill 'em. Please don't kill them. Don't kill them. Otherwise we'll be up. If you kill the snakes, we're up to our knees and rats in a year.

Helen Hong 42:00

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. If you kill the snakes, we're up to our knees and rats.

Jules Sylvester 42:05

Yeah. Can you imagine if they had snakes in London who were doing the plague? Oh, that would've been great, wouldn't it?

Helen Hong 42:12

Ah, good point. The Black Death. Yeah. We needed more snakes.

Jules Sylvester 42:18

More snakes.

Helen Hong 42:20

Okay, Jules, thank you so much for joining us and for telling your amazing stories.

Jules Sylvester 42:25

I enjoyed it. Thank you very much, both of you. It was fun.

Helen Hong 42:28

Thank you for sharing about mother-[Bleep] snakes on the mother-[Bleep] plane.

Jules Sylvester 42:32

Great line. Great line.

Helen Hong 42:33

I hope you go another decades without getting bit by snakes.

Jules Sylvester 42:37

Oh, we'll certainly do that, yeah. I just want to go the actual decades, you know. Thank you so much. It was fun.

Helen Hong 42:43

Thank you for joining us on Framed by Fables. We are at framed by fables.com. Check us out on there, and don't forget the bottom line of this episode: get these mother-[Bleep] sea otters off this mother-[Bleep] plane. It's great.

Wolves of Glendale 43:04

[SUNG] Some people like cats. Some people like dogs. I'm a reptile guy.