Beyond the Visual: Designing How Africa Is Seen with Dolph Banza

What does it mean to shape how a continent is seen?

In this episode, Dolph Banza reflects on creativity, cultural identity, visual storytelling, and the responsibility of representing Africa with intention. Together, we explore the power of design to influence perception, preserve culture, and inspire new narratives.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Bureaucracy is the worst thing that can happen to a creative process. Sometimes clients do not understand that when you hire a creative, you are not hiring uh a drawing hand or a designing hand. So a creative has been trained for that, they have experience. So I think people need to delegate and trust, get it done as soon as possible. Education cannot stop.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Yes, education cannot stop with school. School gives us the fundamentals, but it's only after school that real education begins. And real education is better when it's practiced within your own identity. That's when education is done with passion and interest and self-exploration.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Dolph Banza is a Rundan visual artist, creative director, and founder of Inkstain Illustrations, a studio exploring the intersection of art, architecture, symbolism, and contemporary African visual identity. Through murals, animation, scenography, installations, and visual storytelling, his work reimagines African cultural knowledge, transforming traditional forms, symbols, and histories into bold contemporary experiences. His creative collaborations span projects including Move Africa, the FIA Awards, BioNTech Africa, and most recently, the Visit Rwanda and PSG merchandise collaboration, bringing Rwanda-inspired visual storytelling to a global audience. Driven by a belief that culture is something we build, preserve, and continuously reinterpret, Dolph continues to shape how African stories are seen, remembered, and imagined. This is Beyond Visible with Dolph.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Dolph, it's a pleasure to have you. But I just really want to open up by figuring out like what's currently occupying your mind right now. Is there any interesting project that you're currently sitting on that is taking a lot of your time and you know occupying your mind?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Usually I'm on so many projects at once. Um yeah, um I'm coming down on earth from a project uh that I just completed with a colleague. Um it's something that involved uh PSG and Visit Rwanda. Oh so we designed some graphics for uh some apparels. Uh I and um a fashion designer called Elodie. Elodie, I know Elod. Yes, she has a brand called uh Izuba. Yes, so we did collaborate on that, and then we went to Paris, we shot a video with the players, okay, and uh the merch should be out uh in June, mid-June. So yeah, that's what has been on my mind, and then I have a lot of things going, yeah, yeah. But that's the that's the thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Okay. I mean, PS is huge, obviously. Would this merch be available for the public?

SPEAKER_02 3:34

It's mainly uh for the uh they're up they're opening uh a store in Los Angeles in New York, so it's mainly for that market, but since the theme is Rwanda, the theme of the merch is Rwanda. That's why that's why they commissioned us. The it's the brand is about it's a global brand now. Now they seek different uh you know creations from different cultures, yeah. And uh Rwanda's uh visual um you know aesthetic uh is amazing, yeah. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Okay, sure. Um, I think you have a studio here in Rhonda. I think it's called uh Inkstend. Inkstend, yes, and I just want you to you know give us a glimpse of what that studio looks like and what it feels like to actually be in it because I I haven't visited, but I I want to get kind of like a sense from a curious point of view, so that when I go there, it feels like a process of it.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Uh I call Inkstend a playground. Okay. It's my playground. I get to experiment with uh so many things I like, and then it's Inkstend keeps changing. Yeah, it keeps changing and becoming the person I become. So right now it's a very small studio. We have uh four people, and uh we get to we can play around with four people. Sometimes when you have many, there is a lot of pressure, a lot of work to do. You cannot afford creativity, yeah. But I wanted it that way so that I can keep playing. Yeah, so it's uh yeah, there's a lot of tablets, a lot of uh you know uh illustrations. Uh recently we just started experimenting with material, so we are printing uh on laser, we are printing on wood, uh, we are cutting wood with laser and trying to have tangible you know uh things that we can sell to people. Usually a digital illustrator is going to be restricted to either something that can be displayed on a screen or can be printed on paper, but having something tangible that you can carry that has texture, that has you know um weight is uh it's like jumping to a different dimension.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

Yes, yes, yeah. I mean, just picturing it because you know, whenever you hear the work of a designer, if it's not fashion, it's usually something flat, 2D. Uh, but they're just thinking about how you can make it physical. I think it changes the experience. But why do you why did you think that was uh important? Because most designers never really go into that.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah. I cannot stay on one thing for long. I need I need to keep improving, to keep changing. So I've done an exhibition with that kind of uh material before, and then I almost forgot about it. But now it's about time. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

Okay. Um, obviously most uh rare talents like you don't usually come up like by just learning the craft. You might have had a lot of uh you know inspirations growing up. Um I mean you do a lot of illustrations. That's that that means you kind of have a strong background in drawing. And I want to assume that this was a hobby at some point, like it was just something you just enjoy doing. Yeah, yeah. So when did you realize that okay, this is something that I can actually turn into a business? And it's no longer just about drawing for fun uh or just putting things together because you just like to do it.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

When did it become like I I used to tell people I will become uh a professional, you know, illustrator, and they would laugh at me because it was not something you would consider a profession back then. So uh, but deep down I knew even though I never did art school, you didn't you didn't go to art school? No, I did uh engineering school, so um, but to me that was the obvious way. I was going to be a designer, I was going to to to be a creative. So I I somehow knew because to me it's it's a hobby, it's an obsession, it's it's it's it's uh it's a lot, it means a lot to me. So uh the best way I can keep doing it is to monetize it. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

And you know, for for most people, right? Design is not something that you can be very scientific about. Like you have to create something out of nothing. Like you can just imagine a pattern or like a composition right now, and just pick up a pen and uh start sketching something, and before you know it, you have a whole uh piece. And but I'm very curious to like for your own process, I'm sure like you know, your environment influences you in some way, or the things that you see around you, or like your your mental picture of the world. I'm trying to understand like how do you how like how do you draw influences from your environment? How do you draw uh inspiration from where you are, and how does that shape how you actually show up as a designer and the work that you do?

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Uh yeah, to I have um design can be a lot of things. Some people just see it as something uh super intuitive that doesn't have to follow certain rules. To me, I I see it that way, but I also see it as something that can have rules and dive into science and geometry to you know to bring something. I'm very um uh I have a big passion in the Italian Renaissance. Yeah. So back then uh design and painting was you were the you used to have architecture, you know, they say architecture is frozen music because the patterns are similar uh deep down. So people used to use all these uh geometrical rules, the golden ratio, they used to do symmetrical things. So and having had um an engineering background, this is something I was able to kind of find a way to merge, uh you know, to invite into my creations. Uh, but also if you look into the um traditional uh Rwandan uh geometry, we can call it Timigongo, uh you see a lot of uh circles and and triangles and symmetrical elements. So there is some kind of intuitive science uh behind it. So uh to me, you have the Italian Renaissance, you have an Randan aesthetic, and then you have my scientific background. That's why you see my style sometimes being super straight, super symmetrical. Yeah. Um, but I don't ignore the emotional aspect also. You know, you have to bring some humanness, you have to bring some texture, sometimes. So um I call it my theory of everything. I combine all my interests, and then I find a way to channel them into my creations.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

And so what are some of these interests that you have beyond the design that you you currently?

SPEAKER_02 11:16

A lot. History is one thing, and I like to dive into different cultures. Yeah, you know, uh Rwandan history is very interesting, yeah. You know, African history, mask. Uh, I like uh science, I like math, I like geometry, so I like uh IT, um, I like philosophy, I like spirituality. Okay, uh, you know, I like uh athleticism, uh, you know, I like um uh it's it's it's a bunch of things, they all represent something which I feel like can uh contribute something to my to my style. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

And I think I'm usually very curious uh to hear how scientific or how STEM backgrounds you know shape creative people. For example, you find that um let's say I'm a I'm a designer, but I've also gotten um uh computer science degree, which makes me think in systems like now my design will now be something of you know creating a design system or creating a design template and trying to you know use the algorithm for thinking to vary it so that it looks like I always have something unique. And that kind of could help me carry through. But you you have an engineering background, and today you're an illustrator, and uh you've also done a lot of like you know, 3D design work. I just curious to hear, I'm just curious to hear like how what is the impact of that engineering background in the way that you look at you you you view your work and in the way that you actually approach design.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Uh uh so one day I was uh I was teaching, uh I get to teach people sometimes um interns or conduct workshops. So one day I was uh you know um teaching uh some interns color theory, and then all the you know, you have uh all these principles about colors, and then at some point I looked at the color wheels, wheel, and then I realized that it was made of what you can call visible light in physics. You know, each color has a certain range of frequency. Uh so to me, I I also look at things that way. So, for example, in in geometry, sometimes you can have a curve, and then if you want to extend it with a straight line, that's like a tangent to the curve. So, yeah, um, when I'm drawing a tree, it's really not a tree that I'm drawing. I'm drawing a pattern that uh you can call a fractal. That's something you do in complex numbers, so and then fractals are everywhere, it's like the trees, it's like the veins. So um it's pattern-based, you know, scientific patterns that I can manage to to invite into my style. So um it's it's very, very scientific, but also I get to understand things when I'm when I'm drawing. It's you can draw for you know for a long time, and then at some point these lines kind of have a feedback loop on you. They kind of communicate to you what they are, and they just stop becoming intuitive lines that you are making and they become patterns. Yeah, that's how I get to create a style which may not be realistic but evokes something that is realistic. Yeah, it doesn't have to be like a tree that I saw, but it has to have that fractal aspect, which is the pattern behind a tree. And when it hits your brain, it it it registers as a tree. Yeah, yes. Okay, so I I I have I see through things. Yeah, you you look at uh traditional objects, things like agaseche, you know, all these what is that in in English? Agaseche in English has uh uh it uh I'm gonna have trouble finding a word. It's a container, it's it's a random uh woven object that has like a lid, which is like like a convex dome, and then it has some motif. So if you look, it's it's very geometrically beautiful and balanced.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Is it one of these um containers that are used for decorations?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Yes, and uh people use it for they you can if you want to give something to someone, you can put it into Agase. So in traditional Randan wedding, you have that. So when I look at an object, Agaseke is just an example, but when I look at these objects, I I see uh it's like I'm seeing a blueprint of it. So because I get to study these objects, so at this at some point they become a blueprint, and that's how attractive they get. Yes, and uh the the what I like about that is you you get to respect uh pre-colonial Africa when you look at these objects. If you take Agaseki and then you uh you kind of um give it a big scale, yeah, it it stands as an architectural object. It's very uh balanced, it's solid, it has all the elements that architecture can have, you know, vernacular architecture can have, it's just smaller, right? So to me, when I look at these things, I get to have a lot of respect to pre-colonial Africa because they were able to conceive things that you know have a scientific element. It's just that it was intuitive, there was no formula, written formula behind, but there is the lack of formula doesn't make it less scientific. So uh you look at masks, you look at different chairs in West Africa, you know, you look at how geometrically they are, they they are really made to be balanced, they have you know all the aspects that uh an object needs to be a chair. So um I like that a lot because um I'm always exploring these kinds of things, and then at some point I find a way to channel them into my work depending on the task that I have.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

I see. I mean, you you're part of you you mentioned earlier about the most recent project that you worked on for PSG, and I think you've also done some illustration work for Move Africa. Uh, for the people who don't know about Move Africa, it's uh it's an initiative by Global Citizen that brought artists like Kendrick Lamar, John Legend, uh Doja Cat curator roots. And it's quite a big deal. And I think FIA, which was the award ceremony and Congress that happened, you were part of like projects like that, and even more. But I think beyond that, I'm genuinely curious about your process because it it takes someone who has a very deep understanding and uh of of the design process to be you know dealing with projects of that caliber. Like let's say we get you um, like a client brings a project to you right now and then you get a brief. Can you walk me through like how you go from that conversation with the client to something finished? Like, what does your process look like?

SPEAKER_02 19:24

The first thing I like to do is take control. Once I get your brief, it's like let me take on uh you you you you you cannot do it if you don't have experience. Okay, so the trunk you have to trust you, yes. Do you need some kind of experience to have the confidence to take control and present something? Okay, you so to me, that's why I have switched models so many times before I I was the I was um a creative who would take a brief and do what they tell me to do. And then at some point I thought that I had something, I had a say, and uh that's how I started taking control for Move Africa. They when they came here, I think they had been to different uh African countries before. When they came here, the brief was very simple. They say, we want you to make us a kitenge inspired by Rwanda, yeah. And we we don't have so much of kitenge here, right? Like we would have in West Africa. And I said, uh, it's not gonna be inspired from a textile you know, um, element, but it's going to be inspired by weaving. And then I had this box which I had found on Pinterest, probably uploaded by a museum because uh most a lot of Rwandan uh objects are in different museums across the world, mainly in Germany and in Belgium, because these two countries colonized us. Okay. So being being colonized twice is is really being robbed twice. That's why most of them can no longer be found and the most complex are no longer available. But if you look into archives, you get to find interesting stuff. So and then I showed them the box, I was like, we're gonna do something out of this. They couldn't get it, but they said, okay, show us something. And then I did show, I did some creation. It's not about just taking a pattern as it is on the object and just duplicate it. It's really understanding it and make it more complex and bring some color, you know, make it modern, bring some vivid colors which are going to interact with uh dynamic light, it's print, but it looks like it's animated because you have some different uh you know, light frequency when they move, and then the colors can have an illusion. So I like to take control that way. Yeah, for the FIA, uh, the idea was to create something that reports. Present Rwanda, they it wasn't a very clear brave. And then at some point they wanted maybe for me to create like a template which they will take to their teams to do something because they were like, we don't know if we can trust uh you know uh this guy. When I showed them what I had, they were like, okay, finish. So um, yeah. So I uh the first thing is to have a conversation. I like to have a face-to-face conversation, zoom or face-to-face, see what you want, and then come up with an idea. I suggest you something. The good thing about being an illustrator is that you can sketch out things before you commit to further.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

And then from there, you can, you know, you can make uh you can progress in stages up until when you have something finished.

SPEAKER_05 22:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Uh, but having the confidence to take control is really what is going to define uh me. And I want I create in continuity. So something I've done, like let's say three years uh back, I will I will find a way to revise it in a different way depending on the on the brief that I that I get. So I don't necessarily wait for a client before I think of concepts. So right now I have like ongoing concepts in my mind. I have a lot of pins, I have a lot of saves everywhere, a lot of videos saved on YouTube, you know, Pinterest, Instagram. I have books, and then I'm taking notes, things I like, I know them already. So when something pops, it's like some kind of uh coincidence. I'm gonna find something within my archive that can that I can uh use in that in that process. So um I find that method very interesting because then creation doesn't have to be some kind of agony and struggle, because imagine you give me a task today and then I have to start from I have nothing, and then it's going to be really, really difficult to come up with something original. Uh yeah. Okay. So creating in continuity is really uh yeah what set me apart.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

Does it does that desire to take control of the process make it harder or easier to collaborate with people? Because I'm sure you had to um you also like collaborate with a few other designers to, or did you do all the the no, I I have I have or obviously I have uh a small team in-house.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

I I do the necessary, the thinking, the sketching, the color mode, everything. And then if something needs to be dressed or you know the or something else that requires uh technicalities, I can outsource it. Okay, but um what I did was to produce the steel work, and then I sent over the editable uh to the team in France, uh I mean for the FIA team, and then the uh animated stuff. Um to tell you the truth, I didn't like the way it was animated because uh some of the patents uh things only us could notice. Not the general public. But I was like, if we we thought you were gonna do miracles, this we could have done. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get what you're saying. And and just to touch on that client relationship, how many because designers are the people who I believe get the most iterations, like the most revisions for work. What's the maximum, what's the biggest number of revisions you've ever done for a client for design?

SPEAKER_02 26:15

You know, you sometimes you have these projects which are like stuck in the office, they can't seem to finish to get finished, yeah. Yeah, depending on so many things. Sometimes you have like uh in the middle of the process, you have new people coming to supervise, they were not part of the initial process.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

The initial process takes you all the way.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

And these are the ones who decide. Sometimes they say, Okay, let's start. They didn't see the evolution of things. Yeah. Look, I've spent uh uh even a year with a project, sometimes really, and those are not necessarily the best. The project which gets stuck that way is going not to be a good uh the outcome is not gonna be interesting at all because at some point I want to be politically correct enough to just get rid of it. Okay, yeah, okay. It happens also. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

So how do you manage that? How do you manage the whole like the to get it to the finish line?

SPEAKER_02 27:29

I I try, I try to to finish it as much as I can, but sometimes if it does, it's not making sense. Um uh I'm just gonna you know get out of it. No, you can you can drop yes, you can you can yeah, you can drop it. Um so I'm not very attached to material. I don't care if I lose money because something is not moving forward. So to me, it's it's about having fun. And if I told you Inkston is a playground, so if it starts becoming something else, I I just know. Okay, I just know this is this is not for you anywhere. You can bring an interesting project, and then I it's going to if there is a lot of politics going on, there's a lot of you know unnecessary things. Uh I I will just stop it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think the being uh it's a privilege, obviously, to be able to do that because sometimes you can be a creative and not be able to get out of something. Yeah, it's like being stuck in a mouth. You can't, you know, escape. But uh whenever it's possible to get out, I I do get out. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Yeah. And and I also want to, you know, just to touch on the point of that creative, creative uh client relationship. I think that create with when it comes to creative work, like it's so easy for the for the work of a creator to be misjudged. You know, like when you get into a building and you see how complex the building is, anybody can easily tell that a lot of work has gone into this, right? So the more complex the structure is, the more people respect the process. But with creative work, it's the opposite because the the simpler it is for you to get the thing, yeah, the tougher the work that it took to get there. So I just want to hear, for somebody who's experienced clients of the highest level that I can imagine at the moment, what do you think are the biggest misconceptions most uh corporate clients have about creative work? I mean, beyond the fact that everyone tends to have a say on how it should have been done or how it should have looked, yeah. What are some of the things that people don't understand about what it takes to actually do good work as a creative?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Uh maybe let me start by what kills uh work, bureaucracy.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Bureaucracy.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Yes, bureaucracy really, or bureaucracy is the worst thing that can happen to a creative process.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

You mean from like the the side of the client?

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yes. Sometimes you have institutions which have so many, you know, let's say steps to for approval. Approval, yes. Yeah, and this person needs to approve because they are the CEO, but they were they have no idea what you've been doing for two months. And then they look at the final work, just instinctively they are like, no, it's not it. No, no, uh, it's like, you know, so uh but but also sometimes you have uh you collaborate with uh institutions which requires like you know like five meetings on a small thing each week with 15 people on a zoom call. That's it doesn't uh it's it's really that. So I think people need to delegate and trust and you know uh get it done as soon as possible, yes. Yeah, yes, okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

And what else do you think clients don't understand? Like uh about the what the work that is required to actually get good workout?

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Uh sometimes clients do not understand that when you hire a creative, you are not hiring um a drawing hand or a designing hand. So a creative has been trained for that, they have experience, yeah, they need to be trusted to carry out some work. Uh it's you we do not get hired for our technical skills. We get hired because of so many things and technicalities and problems. Many. Yeah. So uh we need to get trusted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

You always uh talk about every like for most of the the most uh I would say the big projects that you've done, there's usually an African element, right? Um, I just want to know like why that is the case. Like why do you feel so uh drawn to African symbolism in in a way to like differentiate your work or in a way to kind of you know guide your process?

SPEAKER_02 32:37

You you have uh global trends in design every time. You see, like sometimes you have panton saying these are the colors for this year, and then everyone is like, okay, we have uh a manual for what we will be doing this year, these are the trends. Uh, you know, for for us uh Africans, we we we need to design is not just you know uh beauty, building, you know, cute of you know pretty stuff. It's it's also a way for us to channel our identity. Uh if I'm a random designer, I think I get to interact with a lot of aesthetic elements which have been uh you know uh let's say um collectively built by uh lineages, you know, a lineage of ancestors that I feel like I can channel into my work. And that's what I bring to you bring to the world who you are, yeah. So anytime you want to channel someone else or some other culture, some other trend, it doesn't you cannot do it as good as them. Do what you can do. What you have defines you, yeah. And um, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

And I think just on that, um, you had it, you had an encounter in a German museum where you saw some um some art pieces that were Rwandan inspired, right? And I think you you it's something that has actually shaped the way that you you perceived.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

That was a turning point.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Yeah, that was a turning point. I just want to be really just talk to like how that felt like for you emotionally, like and how often you go back to that moment to draw inspiration.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

I I saw I used to look at uh the you know, um the the I used to look at Imigongo, look at Imigongo in fashion in so many fields, and then I would find that there is a need for for Randans to really channel their you know uh aesthetic identity into modern creations, and then I thought that for an illustrator it's not that obvious, right? But um I've always wanted to be able to do more than what I see, but within the same context. It's like how can I create imigongo, which is imigongo, but I've never seen them anywhere. So usually umigongo, these motifs, these patterns are going to be wrapped around objects. It can be a circular object, it can be like a flat object, you have circular imigongo mostly, and you also have linear ones. But what if you have like an irregular shape in which you want to apply that, and there is no historical archive which has exactly the same shape as you have. So for that, you really need to dive into geometrical study, understand really what Imigongo is, and that's what that project did for me. Okay. Well, when they called me, uh they wanted to me to draw the object. That was the brief. You come and draw the objects, and then I kept thinking, what is it that I can bring other than just capturing them artistically? Of course, I recalled that I did technical studies and then we did technical drawing and my interest in architecture, you know, in um um in different kinds of design which involved geometry. So when I went there, I knew that uh it has to be it had to be uh a geometrical breakdown of the object. So I was humbled because uh at first I thought it was gonna be like 30 minutes for each object, and then I ended up coming back tomorrow, still haven't figured out the best way. You know, it's very simple to look at something and say, I am gonna draw it. And then when you try, something is not right about it, because the weavers use sequence of numbers, you know, and they use like a counterintuitive way to build all this complex um motif. And to me, uh, I had to count the numbers, you know, count the circles, know how they are evolving. So it's like a number sequence. That's when it was my first time to really spend like uh days without doing anything than that. So that's when uh I had like a eureka moment. Yeah, when I was like, wow, wow, wow, things will never be the same again. Yeah, yeah. So uh I knew at that moment that something was um going on which is go was going to define you know the rest of my design journey. Yeah. Uh so it's a very, very uh important moment, uh, which I'm grateful to have been uh part of.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

I mean, um you've actually been involved, just to take you back to your projects again. You've been involved in some of the most iconic work, uh so some of the most iconic uh events that have come to Rwanda FIA, UCI, Move Africa, and now PSG. We know that Rwanda has a partnership with PSG. So it feels like you've been representing the country so far, right? Like you've been kind of like the poster child for design in Rwanda. And I mean, it's amazing that the work that you've done has actually represented the country in a positive light. But I know that also comes with a button, like you it feels like you're carrying the image of the nation for some of these international, um, you know, um some of these international projects. Yeah. So I just want to kind of get a sense of what that feels like because most people find it glamorous, but I just want to I just want to know what the the burden that comes with that and how it actually shapes the way you approach this project. Or maybe it doesn't, but I just want to hear from from you like firsthand.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Yeah. Um so I'm a down-to-earth kind of guy. Yes, you know, I've I've uh I've been drawing since I'm a child. You know, it's really been a long journey, and I've wanted this so much. Uh to me, it's not um, I mean, it's good to be the poster child, right? But I feel like I don't realize that. Yeah, so it's like I take one project at a time. Okay. Yeah, but I've uh I never thought this would happen. I just wanted to do cool stuff, you know, because I've been drawing for forever for free, you know, uh uh as a hobby. Uh I have a hobby aspect still in my you know work. It's like a hobby still. I I do it and um one project at a time. I feel like uh throughout different projects that uh I've done, I'm also kind of showing uh to the um to the visual uh to the design community, yeah, you know, what is possible. Uh to me, uh it's always been uh my the need to to to create, recreate uh uh some kind of aesthetic language that we can call our own. So that's my mission, and I get to do that uh in all my projects. And uh yeah, I I think that uh in the future we will so many people will really do amazing work and we will find ways to translate all this, you know, um uh this language in in architecture, in landscape design, you know, in signage in the streets. So uh it's it's all possible in fashion. It's I think in fashion, fashion people are doing amazing work, but I would like to see more in different in other fields. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

And just to let's just to dive into that uh Ronda conversation as well. Let's imagine that you've been giving the keys to this city and you're like, and they're like doff, we want you to design the spaces in Kigali. How would you approach it? What would you put in and and and how would you design the Kigali space?

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Uh I would put up a team and we'll design a design system.

SPEAKER_05 42:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

You know, like a brand guideline.

SPEAKER_05 42:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

That is not I I don't like the guideline word because it's like it guides it's limited, it's like prison. Uh yeah. Um, but a design system uh sounds to be like uh an interesting thing where you can have subsystem within the system about let's say something that is going to be like public signage, you know, if you're making like an airport or if you're making like a bus station, if you're making, you know, like a language that we can learn how to read. To recognize the very minimal made out of uh you know traditional uh shapes. Um the idea is to have uh, you know, when you go in Japan, you know, you know you are in Japan because there is a certain language, uh visual language. So the idea is to look at a picture and say this is Kigali. You know, is to land and say, wow, you know, these people have something going on. Yeah. And then actually when you get to know that it's something which has been around for centuries, that's where you know it gets very interesting.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Yeah. Yeah. And what kind of experiences do you think? Uh so basically, like, how would you design an experience for people to kind of access different amenities and spaces in the in the city? Like if you think about how you can use design to make that more um, you know, rewarding, more efficient, more fun.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

Uh so I've I've done some projects where I have managed. To build small systems using patents, and uh because when you look into these patents, there is actually something is going on, we are telling something. Sometimes you will have like circles intersecting and then kind of uh like trying to route your attention to the center, right? So there is it's geometry is a language, it's a universal language, but depending on how different culture kind of model it, um you can see some kind of communication system. It's like it's like a coded kind of writing, which requires a lot of let's say observation to kind of dissect and see what it would be trying to tell you. I know it's abstract, but we can we can we can enhance it to be more specific. Uh, you know, uh with text, with color, we can actually do that because there is always there is already that communication aspect in these patterns when you look at them. Yeah, yeah. The um the way patterns are built in weaving, it's like you have motifs, and then some of them you erase them, and then you leave a few. That's how you look at them. It's like, okay, this one is not touching here. It's but if you actually kind of stress out and then continue, there is uh an omitted aspect of of that, yeah, uh, of those patterns. It's only when you connect things that you see what's what's what's beneath. So we need to explore them in a scientific way, we need to explore them in an artistic way, we need to kinda actually if if if if I had like a school, I would use African uh you know um object to teach science. Okay, because in in the in the African object, you're gonna have uh so many aspects about aerodynamics, you're gonna have so many objects about um like if you look at bots, the way they are structured, if you look at arrows, in Rwanda we have like a lot of different types of arrows, you know, spears. Yes. And if you look at them, I look at them not as weapons because they represent more than that, you know, they are actually ritual objects, it's beyond really being weapons. So, but for a designer, there is so much uh you know um aesthetic in these objects uh that you can actually kind of deroute them to use them for other things, yeah, for signage because they seem to show direction. But also in science, you can study the angles and you know uh have uh a geometric approach, have a physics approach to it. Uh it's it's uh with drums and uh musical instruments you can teach you know uh about sound and frequencies because you have a drum which is like a low frequency kind of boom boom boom. And then sometimes you have uh other metallic uh you know uh instruments which are going to be complementing the drum, yes, which are gonna have like a high pitch, which is like high frequency. And then in sound, when you have complementary frequency, it's well balanced, it's less monotonous. Yeah. So Africa understands that way, way before colonization. Okay. Uh, what we need to do is to kind of merge the what we've acquired with uh Western education, but apply them to our own traditional creations to understand ourselves better and to be original in not only uh design but also in science and architecture.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I think we've had a great pleasure to chat. So we're gonna go through a couple scenarios, right? Um, just basically to see how you think about this. Um, so the first one is let's say I've learned design from online courses, but like I never had a chance to practice. Like I learned illustrator illustration from um an online course taught by people who don't have the same context as I have. And then I receive a project asking me to design something with uh that is inspired by my culture, let's say Rwanda or Nigeria. How would you advise me to go about that? To make sure that I'm not disconnected from the process, given my foundation.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

If you're a if you're an illustrator, you've never looked into Rwanda and then you have a project, you're gonna have a hard time. So how am I gonna get out of that? Education cannot stop. Okay, yes, education cannot stop with school. School it gives us the fundamentals, but it's only after school that real education begins. And real education is better when it's practiced within your own identity, you know? Uh yes, that's that's when education is done with passion and interest and self-exploration. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

Okay. The second scenario is similar to the first one. Now, let's say I have that background, right? And I've been studying multiple cultures, but then I also get the project, right, to work on a pattern for let's say another festival that's come up. But then now, usually, most people, when they think about creating illustrations for this kind of work, I when I go online to look for inspirations, everything looks the same. Yes, you have the Kente, Nigongo is very popular right now. Um, and then how am I going to like what would you advise me to do in order to come up with something different and unique? So I don't end up doing the same thing everybody else has done.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Uh creating continuity again. Yeah. So you need to build uh it's like having a sketchbook or having pins all the time, it doesn't have to, you know, you you if you wait for a task before you start looking into things, even if it's a familiar topic, it's always hard. So but if you have continuing, you know, uh endless kind of uh you know uh of gathering information, yeah, continuous education, yeah. Then you it's very easy to go into your archive and you know try to solve out things, yeah. You know, there's no formula for better design. We can always speculate uh some other time. Maybe you need to meditate. Okay. Okay. It's it's really um, yeah, it's it's it's a lot. Sometimes I've had ideas pop in when I'm working, when I'm sleeping, when I'm yeah, when I'm when I'm in the bathroom. So it's really uh how do you occupy your mind as a creative? Uh when you close your computer after work, uh some people they close the computer and they close the design universe. They will pass through an amazing architecture, they won't see it. Yeah. Some other people, after they you they close the the the leads, something is still operating subconsciously. It's it's it's really that. And not everyone wants to do that, right? Uh but some people like me, it's an obsession. Yes, yes. So keeps keep you know spinning and patterns. I'm looking at the flowers, I'm like, huh, okay, good. Uh something, uh, maybe two years later, something will pop. So yes, okay. Obsession.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

All right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

So I think for the final part, we're going to just uh ask you questions that where we need just one-word answers. Yeah. So just for you to choose. Yeah, no, no. I would try not to make it hard. So geometry or intuition in your design process. Intuition. Okay. Uh Kigali or traveling across the across the continent? Kigali. Okay. Uh, would you rather build cultural depth or build global stability?

SPEAKER_02 53:32

Cultural depth.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

All right. Yes. Um, do you prefer structure or obsession? Obsession. Obsession. And also, um, would you which one do you prefer? Illustration or animation? Illustration. Illustration. Uh research first or experimenting first? Research. Research first. And I think finally, would you prefer to work alone or collaborate with people across different disciplines?

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Collaborate.

SPEAKER_03 54:08

Are you sure? Because you like to take charge of the whole process.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

Um, that's a tough one. I knew uh it it yeah, it's a tough one. But let's say collaborate. Alone, you you cannot do much alone. Yeah, uh, you can only try. Yes, but when it comes within your specific style that you've your own universe, sometimes you want to be alone, yeah, but uh so many times projects have been saved by feedback. Okay, yes, I agree where I thought that I had it right, and then this feedback, which I didn't really agree with, I will figure out that it came to save the project. So collaboration, yeah. Okay, alone maybe for research, and yeah, yeah, but collaboration when it comes to practical things. I see.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

Yeah the previous guest said I should ask you what uh work would look like in an AI era, right? So as an illustrator, what does your what does uh work look like for you in a in an AI era where design is also you know being shaped by AI? And then secondly, do you think there will be a need to work anymore in the future with uh AI really shaping uh everyday life?

SPEAKER_02 55:25

Uh the work um I beat AI because I'm always creating new stuff, it catches up fast, but it I I will make sure the rest doesn't uh remain that way, okay. And then I will train it to help me to get ahead. I'm not gonna, yes, it's gonna help me. Um we are all concerned about AI, obviously, because you know, um it can do things, amazing stuff, by the way. But we are humans, we like emotions, we like the process, we like the struggle. Yeah, we like the fact that the most prestigious emotionally um valuable things you have, it's because they have a story. Yes, yes, it's not because they are expensive or they are amazing, it's because they have a story, and that's a human story, okay. How they were made and how you encounter them. So there's always when the internet is going to be uh overflooded with AI creations, human creations will be artifacts, okay. Yes, okay, that will the most valuable things you will be seeking because yes, you know, every time you have a trend about creating your own avatar or your picture with AI, how long does it uh you know last? Yeah, three weeks, and then you move on, and then you have an another one again a month, and then people go back to their pictures with their perfect imperfections, they're you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

Yeah, okay. And what question would you want me to ask the next guest?

SPEAKER_02 57:37

Ask them if they would keep doing what they do if you were not financially viable.

SPEAKER_03 57:45

Okay, you're gonna get me in trouble. But I think I think we'll we'll definitely ask that. But thank you so much, uh Dolph. This is really a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

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