Beyond Visible

Beyond Strategy: What it Takes to Create the Best Customer Experience with Astelie Ngarambe

• TORI • Season 1 • Episode 3

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How do great brands create lasting growth?

In this episode, Astelie Ngarambe reflects on leadership, commercial strategy, and the power of experiential marketing. Together, we explore what it takes to build brands that people trust, create experiences that leave a lasting impression, and drive sustainable growth across Africa.

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SPEAKER_03

Yes, you can do t-shirts, you can do flyers and so on. But that's not a strategy. But like it's not a strategy. Like, why are you doing it? Like, what is the what is the outcome that you're expecting? You know, everything that you need that you do needs to drive a particular objective. As a marketing manager, you're you're doing a lot of things without necessarily look looking into all the data at say the trade-off now is that you know you have to have to spend a lot more time understanding numbers. I have to be able to, you know, look at correlations and as a result, be able to come up with a decision and drive the team towards um making better decisions. I really believe in planning. I believe in saving the future youth, you know, like what would uh future Asteli want today's Asteli to do to save her the headache?

SPEAKER_01

What do you think the future looks like for commercial growth amongst African businesses?

SPEAKER_03

You know, I want to say that everybody should get sunglasses because it's bright.

SPEAKER_00

Astelin Garambe is a random commercial leader and growth strategist whose work sits at the intersection of brand, business, and scale. From leading campaigns for global brands including Coca-Cola, Heineken, and Unilever to driving growth across African markets with organizations such as Zola Electric, Jebu, AC Group, and Coco Networks, she has spent more than a decade helping businesses understand how growth really happens. Part strategist, part operator, and part architect, Asteli is known for building the systems that bring customers, revenue, partnerships, and experience together into a single engine for growth. Today, her work continues to shape how organizations scale across Africa's rapidly evolving markets. This is beyond visible with Asteli.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for coming, Asteli.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

I hope I got it right. Asteli, yes. I'm very curious. Uh, you're somebody who has be who's been involved in so many things, um, and that's led you to where you are today. But I just want to know like what is keeping you busy at the moment.

SPEAKER_03

So now what I'm doing is that I um I'm a commercial and brand architect. Yes. Um, so what that basically means is that I advise businesses that are currently feeling like they are stuck. So they've, you know, they've been generating quite impressive revenue, but they want, they have um what I would call like an ambitious goal that they're not able to achieve. So what I do is that I advise them on how they can um scale their businesses by fixing their commercial system, so from all the way from marketing, sales, customer retention, and all the systems um with beneath beneath that that uh supports scale. So I'm doing that for a number of brands right now in Kigali. Um in addition to that, is that I also help businesses scale to Rwanda. Again, it's within the commercial, um, the commercial angle. So, for instance, a company that is operating in Tanzania that wants to scale into Rwanda, they want to understand what is the go-to-marketing strategy, like the go-to-market strategy, what should be their marketing strategy, how you know, how should they build their commercial function, um, and so on. So, I've been advising for companies in that angle as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we're gonna definitely dive into uh the commercial world. Yes. Uh, because I think anybody who is in markets or in marketing or any related space now has one predicament, which is how are we going to make money for the business? Right. And I think that's where people like you become very, very, very useful, you know, because now sometimes marketing wants to just create and be happy um and get people excited and create desire for products. But that's not the language businesses understand today, especially because there's a lot of competition. So we're gonna get into it. But before we even move further, I just want to, you know, hear about what your journey has been, like how you found yourself um at this space today where you're in commercial. Um, I know you used to be an accountant uh at some point, right? So I just want to know like what actually drew you away from that and why did you think that going commercial was the the best option for you?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so I used to be an account manager, like account manager, like um in agency, maybe like yeah, 15, 13 years ago.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, in an agency. Yeah, in an agency.

SPEAKER_03

It's just not accountant, it's not accounting, it's an account manager. Okay, yeah. So I started off um in with an experiential marketing agency. Yeah. And what basically experiential marketing is, is that um it's creating um like sensory experiences for a product that makes sure that your product is retained by the customer. Yeah, yeah. So I used to um, and it requires a lot of project management, and there at the experiential marketing agency, I got the opportunity of working with a number of international brands, Coca-Cola, Heincan, number of N NGOs, um, telcos, and so on and so forth. Yeah. And so I started off in that space and then I transitioned into brand. And in brand, um, so why I transitioned into brand at the time is that when I was in experiential marketing, I felt like I wasn't part of the full process. Like I would only be called upon to solve a particular problem, you know, run a small campaign, and that's about it. And I really wanted to understand the full, um, like the full journey that led to the company hiring an agency. So I joined brand. And so when I joined brand, I worked in Rwanda, Tanzania. Um, then I moved to West Africa. I worked in uh Co d'Ivoire and in Ghana. And there I also, you know, because of interacting, I'm quite a curious person. So I used to interact with a number of functions. And understanding how the role that I played as a marketing, as a head of brand, hand of marketing, affected uh sales, affected customer service, yeah. And like the fact that it also affected pricing in a certain way. I wanted to be part of um building the full picture or being part of the full customer journey, which is how I joined commercial. So when I moved back to Uranda, I made the deliberate choice to uh move into commercial and to start uh building brands across the customer journey, and where I had a bunch of of um of functions report directly to me, and you know, spent a lot of time also reading and learning and um having great mentors. Um so yeah, so that's how I got to where I got. And you know, the more you practice, you of course there's some failures. You learn, you understand the customer, you understand the market, you understand uh the business, um you know, the different um goals and objectives of the different stakeholders, whether it's finance or the CEO. So those are some of the things that um Okay. Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01

And we're gonna really we're gonna dive into your time here in Ronda, but I want to take it a little bit back to the your time at ESP. Yes. Um, for the people who don't know, yes, what how would you define experiential marketing? Because at the surface level, we think of activations. Yes. How a brand can use um partnership activ uh sponsorship activity to drive interest. Yes, but I know it's more than that. Exactly. Um I just want to hear like how would you just like describe it to somebody who is curious?

SPEAKER_03

So experiential marketing is when um is when a brand so brands have an essence, right? So, for example, you know, I know you're familiar with this because you've read a you've written and read a lot of briefs, but whenever you you know, you write a brief, you get a brief from a client, or as a client, you write a brief, you always say how what's your brand essence? Like generally, how do people feel? How is your target customer before and after they've experienced a product? So basically what experiential marketing does is that it brings that essence to life through yes, activation, but it's beyond, it's a sensory experience. So in addition to that, so back in the day, and uh we also used to do, we used to do experiential marketing with a life plus element. So I like to say that I was among the first people to do influenza marketing back on Facebook. Facebook? Yes, Facebook and Twitter.

SPEAKER_01

I I always wonder what Facebook influencers are like.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so they were actually, it was actually very interesting because they were quite a big, big communities. And so what we would do is that if a brand would come and they'd say, like, okay, we really want to bring this campaign to life, is that would come up with um an activation that brings their product to life. So for example, like for Coca-Cola, so Coca-Cola actually has a trademark experience that was created by EXP, which is used as the five senses. Do you know five senses?

SPEAKER_01

Of a of a person. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You want me to mention it?

SPEAKER_03

But yes, so the basically the idea is that if you open a Coca-Cola, yeah, you hear it. Like, you know, and then when you pour it, you you uh you hear it as well, you smell it as well, you taste it. Um, and then so basically all of that is what we would do when we're doing an activation. Okay. So because we would want like for someone not to just go like, oh, you know, you feel the bottle, the bottle has a particular shape. Yeah, and so we would create those kind of associations with the brand so that it's just beyond drinking. You know, so it's that's that's basically what experiential marketing is. It creates memory. It's creates that's right. So you create m memories, you create moments, and then how we would do that with the life plus moment, life plus is that you know, we would back in the day get people to take pictures, share it on their Facebook, use hashtags, and uh even it was still a thing, and then we would also have influences in that space where you know we would have uh back even with X at the very, very beginning. Um even I think uh we also did yeah, with comedians. I started doing that with comedians before it became a thing as well, like really making sure that the brand essence is coming out. Yeah, and so that's what basically expansion marketing is. It's like really creating a sensory experience. And so you can do that for events as well, you can do that for um, you know, like uh there are a number of brands for like hand washing. So, like if you want there's a brand that's uh like a detail to wash your hands, like you know, it's like the campaign is generally to stop for people getting uh germs and so on. So you create that a song or something like that. So when you you're doing the campaign, you're teaching people like, okay, five minutes sing this song and then basically using this soap and your hands. So that's what experiential marketing is.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's not exciting. Yeah. And I think it really speaks to uh human beings because I think we love experiences. And I think that's why most of us, you know, love content creators today, because like they especially when you look at memes, like it kind of takes you back to something that you probably experienced before or something you can relate to. But I I know that um when it's physical, people tend to like you know engage more. And so you've you you mentioned uh Coca-Cola as one of the brands that you worked with at uh EXP. Yes, uh, but there's also Unilever, yes, and uh I think there's another big one, Heineken. Yes, yes. So these are people who have been at the top for years, yes, decades. Yeah, what is it that they know about marketing or commercial uh that smaller brands turn up?

SPEAKER_03

They really understand their customer. Okay, so they really understand, like they create a customer person persona, like they give their customer persona a name. They're able to define this person, this customer's fears, aspirations to the T, if I can even say it like that. So because they understand their customers so well, it helps them, you know, across touch points, yeah, be really relevant and as you said, really create creates engaging moments, uh, even at point of sales, like um within supermarkets that really meet their customers where they are. So that's I'd say something that um they under that most, I don't want to say take for granted, but most companies, most brands take for granted. So you'll build a campaign, but you won't spend as much time to really understand who is my customer, what is their pain point, who do they, you know, what what are they afraid of, what do they aspire to, who are their, you know, key, who do they trust? Like if this person were to say something, who do they trust? So I'd say that's something that they, you know, they really, really understand. Yeah. And then they also understand the value of creativity.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, if you just take a look at some of the campaigns, if all across, you know, you can ask yourself, you know, even when my parents were going to school, Coca-Cola existed, right? But why is Coca-Cola changing? Taste, taste the feeling, and then they, you know, with the food, they have open a meal. Why is it that they have different campaigns? What is it that, why is it that they're constantly advertising? Why is it that they're constantly visible? So they understand the importance of visibility, they understand the process of creativity. So it's not just about putting your brand out there, but putting your brand out there in a way that it creates an emotion within your target customer based on what you know about them.

SPEAKER_01

So it's important to basically just study the customer and find out who they are. More like empathizing in a way. Exactly. You start to think like them.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. And and it's the understanding the customer and being empathetic to the customer is actually something that is across these companies. Like it's part of their values, whether you're in procurement, you understand the value of the customer, and you do everything to serve the customer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so that's something that I've seen that they and when you go back to Ronda, and that that was you were basically in, you were mostly in, can I say marketing?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so yeah. So I did experiential. So I used to do um bring, you know, basically sell, yeah, create pictures and sell experiential marketing ideas as well as execute on them. So in addition to that, do PR and comms to support those activities. Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01

So now I'm at the point where you m chose to move back to Rwanda. Yes. And uh coming from an experiential marketing background, yes. What actually made you believe that it was the right time to go fully commercial? Yeah. And why did you think there was uh an opportunity for that in Rwanda?

SPEAKER_03

I moved back to so first I was in so I was head of marketing with experiential marketing experience. That made my life so much easier because, you know, I would be able to execute, you know, all kinds of roadshows across different markets. I was very good at understanding the customer. So, in terms of conversion, you know, every head of sales that I've worked with is my best friend until now, you know, because I, you know, we were able to deliver pretty good numbers and do quite um to do conversion. Um and so that's when I realized that actually, if I could lead all of that, because you know, sometimes I would feel like there's certain things missing. And as much as I would advise, let's say, a department head who doesn't report to me, it just wouldn't translate it the way they wouldn't translate it the way I believe would have made the biggest difference for the customer and the business. Yeah. So that was really a driver for me to move into commercial. Commercial. Yeah. And so when I moved to Rwanda, and then that there's that's number one. Number two is also when you drive revenue, you basically call the shots. Okay, you know, and so as head of marketing, there is which I was I was fortunate enough enough to learn that in um in in agency, how to basically report my work to basically to show my contribution and so on. I was able, I was uh able to do that. However, you know, if you're running a project, let's say a campaign for, I don't know, $200,000 in three months, and you know, it's and you're not as much as you've driven the rev, you know, you've driven the other activity that has that is that's generating the revenue, you can't really I don't know how to say it, but the the sales team did the job. You know what I'm saying? Like they you drove the rev you drove the traffic, you drove the awareness. But in terms of execution, in terms of like, you know, I'd say tying the rope and you know closing the knot, yeah. The sales team more or less, so it's so when they want something to get done, then their priority their priorities outweigh probably marketing. Yes, yeah. So that's also one of the reasons I wanted to be able to call the shot in that sense as well. And so when I moved back to Ronda, I saw that there was a lot of opportunities. Yeah, brands understood marketing, but understood marketing with the lens that um I'd say at the time was slightly incomplete. Okay. And so in order for marketing, at least at my level during that time, to have an even more significant meaning, for marketing to be able to do the creative um campaigns that I believed were possible, I thought it would be important for me to lead the commercial function so that I can prioritize the creativity aspect while also being able to show to show the direct translation, you know, in the marketing activities in the comp into um the revenue generation, and then also to ensure that the customer is retained to keep the cycle going. Okay. Yeah. Um that's a mouthful, but yes. No, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, literally you've described the entire commercial pipeline from marketing to sales to retention and yeah, retention, then the cycle starts starts again. But I know I'm um I'm gonna play the devil's advocate. Yes, please. Because like I think for most people who hear you, would hear you speak, they will ask you, but why is why was marketing not enough? Because now it's probably been working for them before they discovered that you could actually go commercial full. Like someone needs to tie both puttings together. But just to a brand who is currently struggling to understand why they need to think about someone to kind of coordinate sales and marketing and still think about aftermarketing. Why is marketing not enough?

SPEAKER_03

Like I'd say what I've noticed is that right now most of the marketing that I've noticed right now is that marketing is not able to report appropriately, if I can say it like that. That's number one. Number two is also that uh the people that the marketing person is reporting to doesn't have the full understanding of what the marketing function should do. And so then there is a disconnect in that sense because if the person doesn't know, doesn't have understand the full scope of what the marketing person should do beyond t-shirts and flyers, you know, yeah, yeah, then um what happens is that they are they always feel like they always feel unsatisfied. Yeah. So they're like, oh, we need more marketing, we need more, you know, everybody has an opinion on the kind of activities, you know, not strategy. Like everybody has an in an an opinion on activities. What's the difference? The difference is that like you yes, you can do t-shirts, you can do flyers and so on. But that's not a strategy. But like it's not a strategy. Like, why are you doing it? Like, what is the what is the outcome that you're expecting? Like what what behavior change are you driving towards? Yeah, you know, so it's like, okay, well, let's do more t-shirts. It's like, let's do more. So it I'd say that's where the disconnect is, is that the person who's getting, you know, is not getting a proper report, maybe. So the difference between strategy is that you need to have like an overall uh objective. You know, everything that you need that you do needs to drive a particular objective and needs to have a particular set of um key performance indicators in the sense like, okay, whatever it is that we're driving, how will we know that it is working? It is working. And then after that, you're like, okay, then what are the key initiatives, you know, small things that we're going to do that we can measure, you know, how many times do we have to do them? All of those things. And then what are the drivers or the things that we need to support for all of that to work? So I think sometimes, you know, the person you're reporting to doesn't understand understands initiatives. So it's like, oh, we need to do more social media, we need to do more ads, we need to do all of this. And then, you know, you do it, and then it's like you're not, you don't know how to report on it. Okay, you did the social media. What was your reach? What was, you know, I've I've been with marketing managers that have done really good uh work and they've been able to gather free press, for example. And so when they're doing their reports, you know, they're like, oh, we did the ads, we did what, they're able to say, okay, this is the number of reach and so on. And I'm like, but you generated free press. Why isn't that in your report? Report. Why don't you say that I generated free press, you know, on these particular news agencies? If we had paid for it, this is how much you would have paid for. So then that way when you're sitting with your MD, you're sitting with whoever it is your is your department head, and you're explaining to them they're like, okay, this person in marketing knows what they're what they're doing, you know? Yeah. And so even being able to, so it's I'd say because of of that, you know, the head of department looks at at the end of the of the quarter, they're looking at their report on how you know, spend across departments. They see marketing, they're like, and then like we have to cut. They say, My goodness, this, I don't even know what this money is, what are you using this money for? You know, and because there's no report to support, there's no report that really supports that um engine, like simple things that I always even say it's like, okay, can you do a report that shows before this campaign? Um, this is where the numbers were at within the you know, sales, if it's the sales, if it is uh an NGO before we did this campaign, this is what the number of people were able to reach, or these are the number of people who are able to visit, I don't know, our centers, whatever, after the during the campaign, this is how it is. After the campaign, this is how it is. So that way when you're um someone in finance is reviewing the spend in your department, they're able to say that justifying. Yeah, they're able to justify, and they're now saying advocating for you, you know. But then the reason why I believe commercial, like that commercial function needs to exist is that sometimes marketing someone needs to speak for marketing at some time and save them. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

So from from your from what you're saying, one way to actually justify marketing is to get your report right, essentially.

SPEAKER_03

First and figure out a way to get your report right, work with the department that drives revenue or drives change, whatever that change is, uh if it's users, I don't know, whatever it is, and then be able to articulate to so first sell it to them and tell them, you know, before we did this, this is where you are at. Now we're doing this, this is where you are. And they will see that the direct correlation between what you're doing and then if together you're on the same page, and then you're presenting it to whoever it is you're reporting to, then it's a no-brainer. Actually, they'll be saying, please can we put more money because I want, you know, this work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So just to drive this idea of commercial home, because it's really interesting. I've seen a lot of commercial directors and also had time to interact with most of them, and all they talk about is revenue, by the way. Yeah. But I know that they have a say and they have uh um influence in the way marketing is done. And when we talk about commercial, there's a lot of terms that you you find like advertising, marketing, there is promotions, there is uh sales and retention and all of that. So what we're gonna do now, we're gonna pick a brand, and then we're gonna run through because I believe like with commercial, you oversee the entire pipeline.

SPEAKER_03

Of course.

SPEAKER_01

And for the people who get confused about where where each one comes in, we're gonna pick a brand, and then I will you know try to talk about every stage, and then you tell me whether or not that is uh marketing, yeah. Yeah, so let's imagine a fashion brand, of course, right? Um if they're trying to get seen, like let's say nobody knows about this, this, this brand. Like let's say they just launched. If they are trying to get seen, right? What does that what what does that what does that look like? Um in the in the in the step of the funnel. Like I said, nobody knows them. They might have the funding, they might be funded, they might just have launched, but then nobody knows that they exist. Which of the which part of the funnel would they need to tap into to make sure that people get to to discover them, even if they don't eventually like the product, like you know.

SPEAKER_03

So I'm going to repeat your question to make sure that I've understood. So you're saying there's a fashion brand. Yes, yes, yes. And um the question is what part of the commercial function they would need to tap into in order to be known.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like to just be known that they exist.

SPEAKER_03

To be known that they exist. So they obviously need to tap into marketing. Marketing, okay. Yeah, they don't have to invest into in marketing. Okay. I leave it there. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

To do the the awareness function.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, they'd have to build awareness. So this is, you know, assuming that they know who their customer is. Assuming they know who they're customer. They know who their customer is. They know so they've done some form of market research. And so they know who their customer is, they know the touch points, yeah, and so they would do marketing. Okay. So yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01

I think a better way to look at it now would be let's just pick that brand and then you do the consulting on how they go from just oblivion when no one knows them, yeah, to becoming like a profitable by just really respecting and tapping into the commercial fashion. Yeah. So let's just start. Like we know that there's a fashion brand. Yeah. What's the first step? How do they get started? Um in their journey. You've you've spoken about how marketing can create away, but I just wanted to go from the beginning to the end. But let's start now that they just they've just launched.

SPEAKER_03

So we're gonna call the brand Rito. So it's like story. Okay. So Rito. Okay. So we're gonna launch Rito.

SPEAKER_01

Rito, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So we're gonna assume that we already know before we launched, we did some research. Yeah, then we identified that you know, our customer is young women between the ages of you know 35 to 45. They're in some form of senior corporate role, um, or you know, they're basically trying to build their career and so on. So we've identified that they're very aspirational, um, you know, they are afraid of looking bad and um not reflecting who they truly are. So we've defined our customer. And so um from that, then we'd look at, okay, where is we'd as a commercial leader, then we'd look at, okay, how this is assuming the dresses are being made and so on and so forth. And so we're going to assume now we're going to look at okay, our pricing and the different types of dresses that we have and how we're going to price them to appeal to our customer. Let's call our customer Cynthia.

SPEAKER_04

Cynthia.

SPEAKER_03

So our customer Cynthia, how do we make sure that we appeal to her? So we look into pricing, we say, okay, maybe Cynthia needs to, you know, we should probably have, you know, commercial then advises product to say, okay, let's have something special for Cynthia for Women's Day, because you know, she wants to make sure that she stands out on Women's Day. So product to come up with something, they will look into the pricing. So that's number one. Yeah. Then they would then now look into, okay, how do we make sure that the products that we come up with during Mother's Day sell? So we look at the different touch points. We say, okay, uh, Cynthia spends her time in the mall. So make sure that, you know, within the mall there is um visibility. So some of the people can talk about advertising. So that's in the background. Yeah, so in the background, there's like a lot of marketing. So I'd say like you'd have to now build that out, that cycle out. Yeah. So within the marketing, there's above the line. So above the line is everything that, you know, Cynthia would see in AMAS, like in um, so it's like, okay, what are all the touch points that Cynthia is spending time, or people like Cynthia spend time, and how can we make sure that our brand is there? So we'll do that number one. Number two, we then look at okay, how can we interact with Cynthia directly? Are there places that Cynthia probably spends time during the weekend? You know, is there a pop-up that is going to happen that you can associate with so that people like Cynthia can know that we exist, you know? So that those are some of the things that we do. So different kinds of events.

SPEAKER_01

And all of this you call marketing.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, all of this you you you'd call marketing. And then within the event, now you have different uh, you know, um paraphernalia. So you have tear job banners, all of that, pull-ups, flyers, and so on. So that when Cynthia is attending the event in which she she connects, she's able to see all of this pressure, the material that we're working with. So now when she's attending the event, when she's visiting the different malls, she's attending at the event is probably a salesperson. So now that's the sales. That's why sales kicks in. So how do we, how is this person, before that person shows up to talk to Cynthia, we have to make sure that that person is trained. What is the sale, what is the sales process to get Cynthia to buy a dress? What are we telling her? What are we, you know, if she's not interested at the moment, how are we making sure that, you know, we've recorded all her information to make sure that, you know, recorded her as a lead to make sure that we follow up on that. Um and then, you know, once she's purchased the product, we put the product in, you know, her bag. So the packaging is also within the markspace. Part of the touch points, okay. Yeah, it's part of the touch points. But you know, the salesperson makes sure that it's part of their sales process to make sure that when someone has brought the dress, it's done. And then after she's brought a dress, we send her a message to say, Cynthia, we met at X and Y uh event. It was lovely to meet you. This is our number. Please make sure that you follow us on our WhatsApp channel, on our Instagram, on our whatever. Let's stay connected. Yes. Yeah. So now we have Cynthia in our contact. So next time there's another Mother's Day, another Valentine's Day, we're reminding her. When it's her birthday, we're reminding her. When you know there is a particular milestone conference that's going to happen because we understand who Cynthia is, then we say, okay, are you attending the Africa SEO forum? Benefit from I don't know what discount because you're part of our the the love, because you understand the kind of spaces that Cynthia, so all of that is part of marketing. You also say some part of it. So now there's the comms and the PR part, which is also essential. But I've talked about the customer retention piece as much as I didn't label it as that. But it's like ensuring that we're communicating with Cynthia throughout. And then, you know, we're asking her for reviews and we're also checking in on her throughout the year to say, you know, how did you experience our brand and so on and so forth? So we can improve. And then there's the PR and comms piece. So what the PR and comms piece usually also reports into, usually reports into the marketing function, but sometimes also is standalone depending on the company. So now the PR, what the PR does is that it's it cements what you remember what I was saying about brand essence. Yeah. It just cements that. So for example, ensures that Cynthia knows that people like me do things like this. You know, so for example, we would have an article showcasing um, you know, one of these big CEO women attending Africa CEO Forum, but you know, she's dressed in uh Rito outfits, you know? So that's basically so that's so when Cynthia reads that, she's like, okay, I'm like this lady, right? And she's like me. So I wear the dresses that are like that. And then um within that PR piece, uh, that comms piece as well, is like, okay, how do you onboard influencers that Cynthia relates to, right? How do you make sure that those influencers are not just creating get ready with me, but maybe instead of doing a get ready with me content, they're maybe dressed in the outfits and are doing podcasts, for instance, because Cynthia likes those kinds of people. So it's a lot of work. It is.

SPEAKER_01

You know, as you're speaking, I'm just I'm just I'm like, I hope all the decision makers everywhere in the world are listening to this. Yeah. Because it's a lot of work. It is, and it's a lot of um, I don't know, emotional label that you have to go through to really figure out who Cynthia is. Exactly. And behave like you know her so well.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. That's it. And everybody in the company needs to honor Cynthia. Yeah. So the person who is, you know, within production needs to make sure is like Cynthia doesn't like things with bad quality. Yeah. So it doesn't like so double check three. It's like, you know, the company, the head of the company is constantly reforcing that, like, you know, reto, these are our values. Cynthia that we serve doesn't like this. Yeah. So we have to make sure that we do things for Cynthia because she's who we are here for. But you should know how many customers it takes to get to the revenue you have today. Yeah. You should be able to say that I have 50 clients. Out of these 50 clients, I'm making X amounts. Yeah. And then if you want to grow your revenue, you say, okay, I have to guarantee those clients are coming back. That's my foundation. Yeah. Now that foundation needs, like, I need to make sure that I have the systems to make sure that those ones, they don't go anywhere. Now I'm adding on top. Yeah. So the thing that's happening right now is that most brands are so focused on new customers, you're like, but what about it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was already like saying I'm here.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, the ones someone bought once. Yeah, and it's like, why can't they come back?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and there's this saying that it's actually easier, it's actually more um, it's less more, is less expensive to actually get a repeat customer than to actually acquire a new one. Exactly. Which is interesting. And it also comes down to like let's say marketing has managed to warn people off, it's cheaper for you to convert those guys than to just ignore whatever has happened with marketing and then just go with direct hard sales.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I think where you're speaking, besides the fact that now I'm inspired to launch retail, there is also um the part where it feels like this is not a linear process. Because, like, you know, the when you thought, like when you're learning about marketing, they tell you you start with there's this funnel called AIDA, like that most marketing people use awareness, interest, desire. And then if you you tend to feel like, okay, when I when I when I create awareness for Cynthia, she's naturally going to be interested. And so I'm gonna go with go in and create desire and get get a sale. But from the way you described it, it feels like it's it's like a very scattered process. It feels it's a very scattered process. So now how do you ground yourself in it? And like how do you know when you're actually doing a particular like you're actually at the particular level in the funnel? And yeah, how do you think?

SPEAKER_03

I think this is where it actually gets very interesting, is that this is where the value of documentation and having systems is very important. Because once you start, when you start documenting the processes within your company and you have like it becomes almost second nature, and you don't, you're not, you're not building a lot of things from scratch. So if you have a CRM system uh where you know, if Cynthia purchased the first time, you know, before she even purchased, she's like, Oh, I'm gonna buy. So you put her into your system, you're like, okay, let me just take your number and your email, and then you start, you know, warming her up. You say, you know, this is coming up, you know, we're going to be at this next pop-up. We would love to see you. She comes and she attends, she reads all these different things.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then somebody goes into the system to purposely say, okay, since Cynthia is already here, what can I do to make sure that she buys at least one thing? You know? And so then you have a team that is speci especially trying to be able to do that. Yeah. And then it's like, okay, who are the influences that Cynthia is following to make sure that they can maybe she trusts them slightly more. So if she watches them, it's going to be able to convert. So all of that is also documented. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So you are, it's basically project planning. You know, this is what I tell people. This is my expectation is if you did a PMP, you should be, you should be able to do this. But you should be able to have systems within your business where you are mapping out all these touch points. You're mapping out all the different things that you're doing with Cynthia as a customer across your touch points. Yeah. Um, even within your teams, you're looking at if you have the capacity, the capability to be able to bring more people like Cynthia within your business. So it's it requires a lot of documentation. Yes. And you know, a lot of documentation, a lot of brief writing. Yeah. You know, the one thing I see is like brief writing actually teaches not only the marketing manager, but generally the business, like who it is that you're doing for. So the more you're writing it. So if every single time somebody is going to make, I don't know, they're going to do an event, they're like, okay, this is Rito. This is, you know, the objective of this event is this, who we serve, you know, our target market is Cynthia. This is what Cynthia wants. So our event needs to be tailored to be able, so that that also needs to be, that is very important. Yeah. To be able to also document as much as it is like people like, oh, why is that? Why is that important? But it's the the importance of that is that because of how many touch points you have, and because of all the things that you need to do for Cynthia as a customer, you need to build the muscle of understanding who she is, and you need to build the muscle to be able to get to a point where you instinctively know all the different all the different things that you need to do, as much as there's a lot of it to do. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

All through the all through our conversation, the question that's been coming up in my head is where does social media fit in in all of this? Like what role does social media have to play in the commercial pipeline? Um, because if you if you've noticed, that's what every business wants to do now. Of course. And I think it's even it's it's actually tripled in desire, like, um, especially in 2026, when now the barrier of entry has been lowered. Yeah. So, but now like I want to really understand like for a business that is very active on social media, what what can social media help with in that entire phone, entire pipeline?

SPEAKER_03

I'm going to answer your question, but I also have a differing view on. Well, you don't believe that social media can. I think I think social media is important. Okay, okay. But I say that there's the realities of the of the of the geographies in which we operate. Oh. And I think that's those are things that you know we are mostly, at least in Rwanda, I know that we are a trust-based um society. Yes, yes. So as much as society, um, sorry, social media can amplify, but there needs to be some element of trust as a foundation. Yes. But yeah, so I'd say so social media um plays two roles. So one is like amplification of what you're doing on the ground, which is what I used to do 15 years ago with agencies. It's like making sure that, you know, whatever you're what's the which is the beauty of it. If you're doing an event here, you know, the event doesn't just end for the people who are attending, but you know, it can be live streamed, it can be um, you know, shared across different influences, basically amplified. Um, so it's there's the amplification piece, and then there's also like the re-enf, I'd say emphasizing the brand essence, basically all the things that the brand stands for, relates to. And as I mentioned, for example, like for a customer like Cynthia, it's just making sure that the people that she trusts, if you've done your research and you're like, okay, Cynthia trusts people who are on social media, then that's where you should be. Okay. You should be on social media because that's where the people that's where, that's what she's looking at. And then she also wants to look, she has all her role models, that's where they are. Yeah. But, you know, for someone in the agricultural space, um, so I have some clients in the agricultural space where I'm like, yeah, it's great for you to be on social media, but maybe you shouldn't be on Instagram, you should be on WhatsApp, you know? But you really, that's also the importance of knowing your customer and making sure that, okay, and even when you're on WhatsApp, what are you doing? Are you, you're, are you just, you know, publicizing information? Are you sharing, are you some form of thought leader, sharing educational pieces because the farmers that you're supporting, that's what they need. Yeah. Um, you know, but or are you selling a product that requires people to touch it in hand? So it's much so they touch it in their hand, and then maybe you amplify that through social media, you amplify testimonials and stories and so on and so forth. So you don't use it so much for awareness, but more for um what do you say more for uh cementing trust. Okay, and like, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So that's so for you, like it it's it comes in after you've already created a foundation. Yes. But I think everything comes from what you know about the customer. Like everything comes from so the customer is like the most important piece. Exactly. Yeah, and so but don't you see that I mean right now, like when you look at um what do you call it, the the the the statistics for Africa social media usage, especially post-COVID, yeah, there's been like quite an uptake in use. Of course, right? But do you think we're at a point where we can specifically say who which brand should or shouldn't be on social media? Because now we don't have enough data to actually tell what kind of people who use it. We just know that there are a lot of people online and they spend a considerable amount of time scrolling. Like it's actually like a uh that's I think that's the most uh um available data that we know. So then how do you decide? Like, how do you go through the process of understanding when social media is not the number one thing for you? And how do you how do you when there's not a lot of data, we just know that people use it. So how do you go about that process?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So I'd say all the brands, of course, need to have social media. It's like having our it's it's like uh, I don't know, you need to have you need to have a sign, you know, like the KG street number on your. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You need to basically have it's like everybody m should be. Have some form of digital presence. That's that's essential. But as far as um what like the the prioritization, again depends on how you know your customer. And then the data, at least the data that we know it comes for them from the telco. Like they're you're able to identify the mobile penetration in a country, you're able to identify the, you know, what is this um feature phones versus smartphones. You're able to identify at least uh the you know the news agencies or the number one, the number of the sites, the top sites um that are used, and then also basically the social media usage among the different, I think those ones at least are widely um available. Yeah. So depending on that and depending on what you know about your customer, then you position yourself accordingly. And then as I said, the type of content or the type of, you know, how you um the the messages that you're going to be able to put on social media depend again on what it is your customer needs from you. Yeah. But I think, you know, one thing is that I know, for instance, that um I was actually telling someone just yesterday, people spend a lot more time with influencers than they do with their family these days. You know, they don't know all the memes XYZ, you know, but they don't know. But it's like, okay, they know the memes, but if so and so came to show a product, would they are they the person that they would trust more or less purchase from them? That's it. So it's like it's different. There are different kinds of influence, influencers, content creators that drive conversion, and then there are others who, you know, they're more or less a billboard for amplification. It takes a lot of, you know, as a marketing, if you're a marketing manager or even as a commercial leader, the expectation from your marketing report is that they understand the market very well. Yeah. And that they understand the customer very well in such a way that they're able to articulate, articulate in quite detail. You know, like this is a, you know, now we have a number of YouTube pages. So as opposed to um to you know, standard media, people would prefer to spend on YouTube. But then you also have to think about like the size of the country and how many people, it's like, okay, what is your know your customer, know where they are, know also know have your target. It's like it depends on what's what your conversion rate is as well. Like what's what kind of conversion rate, what are you how big are your numbers? Um, that also matters. So I'd say it's not um, you know, it wants it to be an accurate science, yeah, but um I'd say understanding your customer and be looking at also understanding the business, understanding the the the focus of the business, because as I said, as a commercial manager or a commercial leader, is that yes, you're driving awareness, all of that, but you also have to understand the cost for the business in order to do that. Yeah. So as much as you want to be on all the YouTubers and whatever, you also have to it has to balance out.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and that was gonna be my next question, like the trade-offs that you've had to make. Yeah, you've had to make uh make as a as a head of commercial uh because everybody is pulling resources from you, like from all angles marketing, sales, yeah, business development, yeah, business development and even customer service, customer service, executives, all of that. So they're all pulling you in every direction, and at the end of the day, they just want to make money. But I want to I want to hear some of the trade-offs you've had to make um to make sure that you are focused on the results.

SPEAKER_03

I'd say the trade-offs is um is learning to to like I don't know if it's necessarily a trade-off, but it is um I think it's really learning how to risk assess. So risk assess in the sense that, you know, I said before you you as a marketing manager, not that I would play it by the ear or by the what, but it's more of you know, you're you're doing a lot of things without necessarily look looking into all the data. Um, and I'd say the trade-off now is that you know, you have to I have to spend a lot more time understanding numbers. I have to be able to, you know, look at correlations. I was actually even in a conversation with someone like that where I'm like, okay, I need to be able to look at trend week on week, month on month. So if I have people within this, so be able to have like two or three screens open to look at, okay, if it's social media spend, I'm running ads, and then I open the dashboard for sale, and I'm like, okay, this day we spent $200 on an ad across platforms. Was there a direct correlation in the number of phone calls that we did? So then I can look at it and be able to say, okay, this, the marketing person did a really good job, or we use the right talent if we're using uh an influencer, we'd use the right talent and it's converted directly. Um, or at least not converted directly, but at least got us some form of leads, you know, because that's also what uh, you know, it's got us some form of leads. So we're able to see that and as a result, be able to um come up with decisions, drive the team towards um making better decisions. Yeah. Um, so I'd say the trade-off is just a lot more time understanding that's a lot more time pushing people to write. Yeah. But people don't like to write.

SPEAKER_01

Especially when you know how voice fronting.

SPEAKER_03

So you write, yeah, pushing people to write, pushing to people to understand, you know, why is this important for the customer? You know, like someone saying that why, why, why, why, why? Yeah, you know, getting people to understand spend and how this translates for the business, why we cannot just spend the way we want, you know, getting planning ahead, like budgeting and being, I'd say, cost conscious as well. Yeah, you know, I think sometimes people want to overspend, but it's like being cost conscious and being an understanding, yeah. Yeah, so I'd say that's been the the trade-off.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And and I think uh just to wrap up this this segment of the conversation, um marketing and related uh fields for for those for those fields, I think there are some of the fields that most people actually claim to understand a lot. And they feel like you know all that is involved in in getting it out. I mean, I'm sure you've had people in other departments try to tell you what they think should be done. But I want to hear from you what uh parts of your of your work or of your career, of your journey, or of the the stuff that you do that is still invisible to the people who are not part of the field. Like if you met like someone in operational today, what's the one thing that they never understand? Or like let's say even when you try to explain why it's important to have a head of commercial, what are what are the parts of this field that you think that are just so invisible to to the ordinary person? But it's really important.

SPEAKER_03

One thing I'd say that it's um the importance of it being all-encompassing and how it translates to business results at scale. So at scale, so for example, um advise businesses that are doing very well. Like if you they're doing very well for sure, like all metrics if you look at it. But then if you were to compare them versus their peers, or like someone uh, you know, they've been maybe 10 years in the business. In Rwanda, they're the best, you know. But if they look at their peer in another market, not necessarily because that market is like grown or whatever, but in terms of systems, in terms of the kind of um like how generally the the the that company is structured commercially, it's like night and day, right? Yeah, yeah. And so I'd say companies that understand the commercial function are able to scale, I'd say, much faster. Because if you have a strong product, if you have a very good product, you have good operations, but your commercial function is not tight in the sense that you know, once you've driven the right um awareness or you've done proper marketing and all of that, you don't have a process for collecting leads, you don't have a process and keeping that engine going because collecting leads once is possible, but now keeping that engine going and then making sure that you know you're continuing the conversation with the customer for conversion and nurturing that customer, making sure that your customer service is top notch, whether it is a tangible product, hardware, whatever. Um, so like your customer service is top notch, and that, you know, all through the process, you've been doing it in a way that is maximizing revenue for the company. Um, and that, you know, you're able to look at the different levers, you know. So it's like, you know, you're like a DJ. So you know that if you increase the bass, people are going to feel this kapart of the song much better, you know? So it's the same thing. It's like, and then on top of that, you layer that element of uh, you know, commercial operations or data analysis, then it's like you have a symphony, your business can basically scale to yeah, because you have the systems to support it, you have the right people in the right functions. So, for example, if you want to 10x your business, it's not nothing is gonna break, you know? You're not going to zoo, you say, okay, now, you know, we want to start advertising in the World Cup. Okay, wow. So you advertise in the World Cup, so you're like, oh, we have a website, you have all of that. Okay, so you have a website, people are reaching out to you, crickets. Like they don't hear back from anyone.

SPEAKER_01

Because there's no system, there's no system in the background.

SPEAKER_03

Or maybe they do hear back from someone, and then that person says, Okay, someone in sales is going to contact you. No one says an invoice, no one says a proposal, you know, or they send the proposal, they do the business, but you know, somewhere after the business is done, no one says, Okay, how did you think this was? Can you come back? Like so, all of that, you know, as I was talking about the importance of nurturing your current customers, yeah, and then building on top of that with new customers and ensuring you have the right systems, you know, the marketing team know exactly what they're doing. You're able to look at your data and say, okay, let's dial up here, let's dial down here, and let's do it in a way that is um, yeah. So that is all the things that are completely invisible. Yeah. So people are thinking you're just ordering t-shirts and flags. That's really not what the job is about.

SPEAKER_01

And what what what keeps you hopeful about the future um of commercial growth, especially in Africa? Because I think our markets are starting to open. Exactly. And but more than ever, revenue has become like a big factor. Yes. Like people would ask you, how much did you make this month? Yeah. Even if you have a million followers or a million views. But I'm just wondering, like, what do you think the future looks like for commercial growth amongst African businesses?

SPEAKER_03

And you know, I want to say that everybody should get sunglasses because it's bright. You know, I'd say it's very bright. Um, because as I mentioned, there's a number of companies that are doing very well in Rwanda, even across the region. But then when they compare, you know, to their peers across, they realize that actually, as far as systems are concerned, they are very far behind. Yeah. And as a result, they're looking at um talking to different experts, uh getting advisory so that they can really get their businesses to you know the international level or to a level at which they can scale properly. And so for a majority of them, they have the right product, as I mentioned. You know, ops is excellent, logistics excellent, but where it's actually not converting or it's not creating tangible results is that sales and marketing. And then now service is just, you know, like if the company has service, wow, you know. So that's where it's basically so now more and more MD CEOs are becoming convincing of that. And so they're saying, you know, I want to double my revenue. But then when they look at the capability within their team, they realize that, you know, they can't propel the, they can't scale at the current, at the current uh rates because, you know, maybe there's no capacity, maybe there are no systems, and so on. So there's a lot more people that are reaching out to people like me to basically say, you know, help me um craft, help me put this together and help me build systems. And so my goal as whenever I'm interacting with a client is to make sure that, you know, I leave them in such a way that your, you know, your head of sales can go for leave.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, like your head of marketing can go for leave, and like the business, even you as an MD, you can be like, okay, you can sleep comfortably, knowing that, you know, it's half of the year and you've met probably 60% of your of your target for the year, you know?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So those are some of the things that um that is are making me very hopeful. Yeah, yeah. Um, and and what is also making me hopeful is that I see more and more people willing to learn. I think before, like marketing didn't really care.

SPEAKER_04

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's like, ah, they're always in a fight with the the finance, you know, always in a fight with finance. But I'm seeing more and more marketing managers um, you know, trying to learn, you know, how do I make sure that I communicate what I'm doing? You know, how do I make sure that I'm doing proper reporting? How do I make sure that I educate the people that I work with about, you know, the importance of what I'm doing? And you know, and even when people are like, we should do more t-shirts, I tell them, you know, actually, this is not really part of our strategy. It doesn't help Cynthia to do more t-shirts, you know? So those are the kind of things that I'm I'm noticing as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I'm there right there with you. I think there's also going to be a lot more uh commercial literacy happening as more people start to see results and they'll start to believe in it more. Yes. Um, so I think I I I'm just hoping that from this conversation, yeah, a lot more people will trust research more, yes, trust uh, you know, understanding the customer a lot more beyond what they feel like is better for them, and also trust uh bringing sales and marketing together, like literally putting them in in one room so they can work together. And I think another thing that you said that I really really loved hearing was the fact that reporting can save marketing, yeah, and if done if done properly. So I think just to wrap up, and we're gonna look at um a few scenarios just to see how you'd approach them. Of course. Um if you had to face them. Yeah. So would you rather fix a system or train the people in it if something is not working on it?

SPEAKER_03

I do I train the people in it. You train the people, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah. Would you rather have one market done properly? Like just going through the roof in one market, or just all five markets that are operating at an optimum level.

SPEAKER_03

One market, yeah. Okay. Can I say why? No. Why? One market because like then you have the blueprint. And if it's doing really well, then you have the case studies, the blueprint, so it's easy to scale in other markets. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, okay. Uh, do you care about the brand first or the revenue first as a commercial person?

SPEAKER_03

Uh I think if you do your brand well, you get revenue. If you do a brand well, you get revenue. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah, no, I'm right there with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a brand, yeah. Brand first. Yeah. Do you prefer like a fully mapped-out plan? Yes. Or room to adapt as you go?

SPEAKER_03

Oof. That one is hard.

SPEAKER_01

Really?

SPEAKER_03

Because I really believe in planning. I really because I think it saves, I believe in saving the future you you know, like what would uh future Astelie want today's Asteli to do to save her the headache. Um, so I really believe in the map in mapping out things, but doing risk assessments. Okay. So like uh you can be flex if you do proper planning, you should be able to anticipate risks, like the worst case scenario, yeah, and plan for that. So ideally you could iterate because you have planned for it.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And some people say, what's the word? They say um your plan, uh, when you when your plan fails, your training kicks in. Because now you've already done the risk assessment. Like you've rehearsed and you prepared yourself. Okay. So we do have a a scenario where you're just gonna walk us through um your like your thought process and responding to it. So then you just look at a country like Rwanda, there's a lot of that's a growing event system, right? So, how would you advise an organizer who wants to make the most out of your sponsorship activation? Because you know there's a lot of activations that happen in events, but how would you advise people to make the most out of it?

SPEAKER_04

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. No, no, I can advise of like the I charge for it. But let me know, generally make it general. I'd say, you know, you understand, and so if you're an events organizer, so the the the assumption is that brands are reaching out to you to be able to create experiential activities for them. So whenever they're having events, I'd say number one, again, make sure the brand is giving you a proper brief. Yeah, right? Make sure that the brand, like probe them. I think one thing that I try to do with my clients is that, you know, I repeat back to them what they said to me.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So, you know, like uh, so I come to Tory, for example, I'm like, oh, so who's your customer? They say, Oh, there are people like this, like this. And I'm like, okay, good. So I write to you and I'm like, okay, so we're building this for your customer who is like this and like this. And they say, no, this is not the customer.

SPEAKER_01

This is not they were not sure.

SPEAKER_03

They're not sure. And so it's like the idea is that if you're able to get to a point where you really understand each other as far as the customer is concerned, then because what's now the trap that happens is that they get so the agency needs to get it to get position themselves as a thought leader, not as an initiative executor. So you're not the person that is bringing the table with the the hostess, whatever. You're the person that's going to build like is doing strategy based on understanding of the customer and based on the understanding of the campaign or the event. So for example, let's say it's an event, you're doing a cybersecurity event. It's really right, very exciting. So the the the company's like, okay, cybersecurity, we want you know, people who are attending to really experience, you know, the importance of cybersecurity for their company, the importance of, you know, considering the age of AI. So we want you to come up with something that people will be able to engage. So, like, okay, cool. So who's the customer? And then explain, oh, this is like a CTO of some company, you know, is curious about AI, is curious about you're like, okay, fine. So maybe we're going to create a simulation. What? That the customer or the CTO, when they come, they pull up their phone. I'm just making this up because I don't know anything about. And so, you know, they put their phone on, maybe they scan their phone on something, it shows them something, I don't know what. But then at some point, yeah, you can, it's then at some point there is some form of cyber attack or whatever, you know, and then this person has to, I think, I've I've been to those kinds of events, so I don't know how they do it, but I know that it's possible. So you can use VR to more or less create engaging experiences, and then within the VR, have some form of gamified experience. So you have a gamified experience for that person. So you have why did you come up with a gamified experience? Because you understand that the CTO is interested in tech, is interested in that. So as opposed to having, and then you know, that experience is brought to you by that brand. So you've understood the brief, you've understood the company, you've created it in such a way that it's very memorable. So the CTO will go back to the office and be like, Do you know that company? What they did? They took us through that. Let me show you. No, no, no. There's even you're like, Let me take a picture. And you now you find a way to amplify it.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03

You tell the guy, like, okay, I'll take a picture of you and then I'll send it to you, like while you're experiencing all of this. And then the guy goes back to the office, is having a chat with their CEO, and they're like, you know, look at me. I was experiencing this thing in VR, and you know, there was a cyber attack. The company told us, you know, this is basically what happens on the cloud, and if we don't protect our things using their company, made a convert, like at first of all, your top of mind.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03

The agency has delivered on the brief 100%. The company is very happy because you know, you've understood your customer, yeah, and they're very and then at the end, their customer, their future customer, is converted, or at least has become an ambassador because of the experience that you've created. Yeah. So basically, what I'm saying here is that as opposed to flyers, t-shirts, and uh what's the what's your beef with flyers and like you know, it's like you've created you've you've gotten your your the agency has gotten the custom the the client to really define who the customer is, has created something that relates to the customer and has really delivered on the brief to make sure that it is memorable and it appeals to the customer. So that way, obviously the agency is going to stand out as opposed to somebody who's just coming like, you know what, we are going to have Brandon Bassaders. And the booth is going to be like this. Yeah, yeah. And that that's basically. So I'd say, like, in the event space, it's more, especially with everything that Randa is going through. I always tell people, it's like, how do you make sure that they remember you? Yes. Because, you know, if it's a conference, trust me, everybody has a booth, everybody has flyers, everybody's trying to tell you some. You, you know, you'll take the business cards home, but you won't really remember. Like what? So I'd say unless there's a touch point. Exactly. So I'd say for agencies that are trying to break into that market as far as experiential marketing is concerned, is to really push the customer to define who or the clients to define who their customers who the customer is, and then come up with pro proposals, pitches that really appeal to that person and drive the message home that your client wants to.

SPEAKER_01

So essentially, if we can find a way to plug in experiential marketing in sponsorship activation, they will make a lot more sense.

SPEAKER_03

Of course, they would. And it would directly converts.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So you've heard her, like you've heard uh Esteli. If you're planning your next sponsorship activation, reach out. Yes. She is gonna say something to you that will change the way you approach it and to convert. And trust me, I've learned a lot talking to you about this because we do a lot of work in social media, but I can see where experiences can actually, you know, help um provide more value to the clients that we serve. And thank you so much for sharing. Thank you. Uh, hopefully we can keep the conversation going. And if people the people who want to work with you, how are they gonna find you? Because I I reckon you're going to you're going to do a create a lot of value for people through this.

SPEAKER_03

Um, so they can reach out to me on LinkedIn or through my website, asteli.com.

SPEAKER_01

Asteli.com. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for listening to Beyond Visible. This podcast is brought to you by Tory Branding, a communications and marketing agency helping brands tell stories that build communities, drive growth, and create meaningful connections. If you're looking to uncover the stories behind your brand, event, or organization, we'd love to hear from you. Learn more by visiting our website.