#004 - Starting a Movement - Dr. Tom Posen

Tom Posen is a professor of music, producer, DJ, and the founder of Under the Trees, a pop-up EDM event brand in Boise, ID. He also helps run Space Banana, teaches EDM production at the College of Idaho, and is developing two music projects of his own.

We cover what it takes to build an event brand from scratch, and the many lessons that Tom learned along the way as he built up Under the Trees. 

Follow Under the Trees: @underthetrees.boise Follow Dr. Tom: @dr.tom.music

0:00 — What is Under the Trees?

3:48 — The penitentiary event and first park parties

6:50 — Building UTT from zero with no gear, no contacts, no permits

17:46 — Space Banana, afters culture, and the Boise club scene

24:46 — Headlining the penitentiary and the $0 profit reality

33:34 — From Beethoven to EDM: Dr. Tom's music projects

44:00 — Teaching EDM production and social media at the College of Idaho

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

What's up, gang? Well well played. It's a terrible joke. Uh I'm here with Tom today. Found it under the trees, musical artist, DJ, you name it, doing all the things. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Hey, thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Good deal. I want to start with Under the Trees. Describe Under the Trees in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Yeah. It's a big nutshell. So let me get at that a little bit. So I actually moved here from Montreal, Canada. And in Montreal, we had something called Picnic Electronic. And basically they had this island that they built using all the dirt from the subway that they built. So they they took all the dirt, they built the subway, took all the dirt, and built an island next to Montreal. And on that island, they had the Expo 57, I believe, or maybe it was 67. Anyway, it's like a world fair. And many, many years later, they turned it into a festival grounds. And then every Sunday during the summer, they would have a two-stage EDM festival, basically. And they would pull in big acts like Ajuna Deep and locals and everything else. And so I would go every Sunday and I absolutely loved it. And then during the winter, they had Igloo Fest, uh, which was insane because it was minus 20, and people would still go out and they bring in big artists, and it was in the old port of Montreal. And so anyway, I got a I got a job here. I moved here because I got a job as a professor of music at the College of Idaho, and I wanted more EDM. And the first thing I saw when I came here was the beautiful parks. I mean, Boise is just unbelievably gorgeous. Uh, I mean the parks are stunning. And so I thought, man, wouldn't it be cool to have something like Picnic Electronic in Boise? And so then I started Under the Trees. And the goal has always been to build towards a kind of a reoccurring festival, but Under the Trees blew up way faster than I thought. So we had a, we had our our first park party was probably five to ten times bigger than I thought it would be. Um, and actually not many people know it, but Brian was at the very first sound check. Let's go! And uh we had, I mean, we had two subs and and two tops, and and I remember uh some sound engineers being like, You're gonna need a lot more than this. And I was like, Well, you know, this is what we have. Uh, and then literally two weeks later, we had a massive rig that we found uh and it became you know 300 people at the park. It was just huge. And so that first event made it clear to me that Boise needed something like that or wanted something like that, and so then we started doing park parties, and then it grew beyond that. So we did kind of pop-ups in in a warehouse and a in a cathedral, which was trika, um, and then just different parts throughout the city. We did the the Cuna Castle, um, and then we've done the old Idaho penitentiary, which we're doing again in August, um, and just really special kind of historic places within Boise. We pop up, bring a show, so it's a secret location beforehand. Um, so it kind of harkens back to the old days, and and actually that started for me during the pandemic because in Montreal everything got shut down. I was so all the clubs got shut down, basically my social life got shut down. And then what happened is during the summers, people started to kind of post pop-ups outdoors in the mountains, and they would be secret locations, and they would they eventually got more and more remote as the cops would shut them down. But I was so drawn to this idea of trying to find a secret party and the secret location and like where is it? And then you you walk through the woods, and you're like, I have no idea where I am and if I'm gonna get there. Um, and so I kind of wanted to recreate that that feeling of wonder and and surprise that you get when you go to a secret location party.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Wow, that's amazing. That's so cool. You brought the culture over there and and you've you've built something so great. I was just looking at your Instagram today and 11,000 followers in two summers. You've built that and some of your events have been unreal. What have been some of your I mean you you name dropped a few, but what have been some of your favorite events?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Well, I think our our our flagship event is the incarcerated event, which is at the old Idaho Penitentiary. And that one's really special because there's only four uh penitentiaries open to the public in the United States, and Boise has one of them. And it's so it's a historic prison. Um, my tagline is uh once a place of incarceration, now a place of liberation. There we go. And um, yeah, it that event is is just unbelievable because it's actually on the prison grounds. And so the first time we threw it, everybody thought we were gonna be in the botanical gardens or in the field next door. I was like, no, no, no, we're actually in the prison on the the basketball court where they used to play, and then we set up a bar in the top security prison block, and so we had a full cocktail bar, and um, I'm in a full-on concert. Um I might say rave. Some people have different ideas about what a rave means, and and for me, a rave is just a a gathering and and dancing to electronic dance music and expressing yourself however you want to, wearing whatever kind of clothes you want. Um so so that's not it's not drug-oriented, it's not you know kind of illegal or anything, it's it's sanctioned, um, but it's still mysterious and and kind of an insider feeling, and you kind of join a community when you go there. So that that event was unbelievable. I mean, we we sell out every year on that one, about 400 people. Wow. So this one's coming up in August. I encourage folks to get tickets, it's selling out faster every year. It's really crazy. Um, the other event we did recently was on the Green Belt at a place called Bluebird. So we're collaborating with them throughout the summer. So we're doing another one this Saturday on July 4th. Uh that's gonna be last time they had over 2,000 unique people come through the venue. Uh that was a phenomenal show. And then um, we'll be doing uh a Halloween event and then some other events. We were doing them twice a month, but honestly, the I I was working like 60, 70 hours a week on top of my regular job, just trying to, you know, making calls, getting permits, organizing marketing teams and so forth. And so it was it was just too much. But now it's kind of like once every month, two months cadence.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

I think that's uh that's that's good. I think having a a little bit of exclusivity won't won't water it down as much. I don't know if it was getting watered down at all, but spacing out a little bit, we'll we'll have a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, basic supply and demand and yeah reducing and and really yeah, we we don't have to throw them. It's it's not like a massive profit generator or anything. It's just but I see people smiling and and like the feeling that I get when I'm there and that other people get is hard to let go.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Yeah, that's awesome. And 60, 70 hours a week, obviously you're working hard. Um but I'm sure you have two people helping out as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Uh yeah, now it's more reasonable. In the early days, you know, when you start something, you know this, you gotta you gotta figure out who does sound, you know, who does lighting, who does pictures. Like I I I moved here, I literally didn't know anybody. Um actually when I look back at it, I was like kind of crazy, like a little bit delusional. Like I I didn't have any DJ equipment, I didn't have any knowledge of the city permitting process, I didn't know where I could throw events, I didn't have access to speakers, I didn't have lights. I knew like my some of my colleagues at the College of Idaho. I didn't really know all the DJs, I I didn't know anything, and and I just thought this has to happen. And I started an Instagram account. Um, I did know some things though. I I had studied a lot of how these kind of movements started in Montreal. I I actually started a project up there called MTL Electronic Music, and so I studied how collectives grew, how clubs promoted themselves, how DJs promoted themselves, and and so I I had watched that for several years while I was in Montreal. And so I knew I knew how to start something. And then I guess I just figured I'll figure it out. Like I'll I'll I'll rent sound somewhere, like I'll get it or I'll buy it, or like I don't even know. But uh but once the project started, people started to reach out, you know. Like I have I I do photography. Oh great, come over. I I do uh I have a big sound rig, you know, I have lighting, I have this. It's like okay, let's and so I collected all the people, and you know, that takes an enormous amount of time to just get contacts and pull people together to create something like that. That's that was the hardest part for sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah, I think that's a great testament to like anyone who is thinking about starting some sort of event or some sort of business of their own. It's like imperfect action is so much better than inaction. Absolutely. Like you were like, I don't know how this is gonna happen, but I know it has to happen, and just taking the first step of making Instagram and putting something out of the world, like, hey, who wants to be a part of this? Yeah, and I think it is surprising to people, like you will get feedback if you just blast things out into the world. It's like somebody will want to help you, somebody might have a similar idea, and it's like, oh, this guy's onto something, I'm with him. And it seems like that working.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Yeah, it was it was really interesting. I mean, Boise is a a small but big place. Sometimes you it feels big and it's like there's a world of opportunity. And then there are other times. I remember in the early days when I started the account, I got some messages from other promoters and they're like, Who are you? Are you this guy, this guy, or this guy? And I'm like, No, no, no, I'm totally new. I'm like none of those. And they're like, Oh, really? Like, what is this about, you know? And so at first I think I was very non-threatening. It was just like, okay, let's rally around this project, you know. And then over time, some some people might have seen it as a threat to them, or or you know, it it it becomes you become integrated into the system and then it's competition and then you know and so forth. But I think I think we're in a really positive space right now. That's good. Yeah, I like it.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Um you touched earlier a bit on um rave culture, right? Yeah. If I tell my parents I'm going to a rave, you know, they think I'm gonna go to some freaking cave in the middle of nowhere and do a bunch of ecstasy and like hang out all night, which it's not that, right, right. And I think about kind of some things that you did to to preface that, especially with like your branding. It's very welcoming, very inviting. Under the trees, yeah. I'm hanging out, we're gonna we're gonna have a concert in the park. Bring your kids. Exactly. Um, yeah, and just in my experience, so with my gym CrossFit casual, CrossFit has kind of this stigma that you have to be freaking ripped or like a beast to come and do CrossFit, and people are like, Oh, I'm not fit enough to do CrossFit. It's like, no, that's not the case. Like, yeah, we're CrossFit casual, like it's chill, it's mellow, you can come and just work out. You don't have to be crazy in shape to do it. And thinking about your brand, you kind of did the same thing with under the trees. Like, if you if you gave it a name like like park parties or like something rave, you know, people might be like, Oh, I'm cool. Yeah, I think you've you've created uh a welcoming brand, yeah, which has brought people in. Um, yeah, what's the community of of Under the Trees like? Yeah, that's a that's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Um, so yeah, actually, so Under the Trees has two things. Number number one, the city of trees, and so I wanted it to be tied intrinsically to the Boise culture. That I mean there's an there's a love for nature in the in the trees. Uh Boise is Le Boise, which is French for the woodland. So the French fur trapper has apparently discovered a bunch of trees, and they're like, Oh le boise. How do you mean that? That's cool. And so uh, so there's that element, and then under uh is an allusion to underground, and so kind of artists that are not necessarily known, and so there's an underground movement, but it's underneath the trees, so it's kind of this it's just felt right. Um, and you know, uh one of one of my actually the the things I'm most proud about is that Under the Trees won a catalyst grant from the city of Boise, and that was when we first started. They they didn't do it last year because I guess they got funding cut or something, but um but the premise of that grant was that there's a lot of young families here. Um actually the fertility rate in Idaho is apparently like the 11th largest in the United States, so and most people are having kids between 20 and 30. And so when you have young kids, uh it's really hard to make it to the club because you might want to dance and so forth. And so I thought, what if um people brought their kids to the to the show? I mean, why not? It's in the park, like it's very non-threatening. It's you know, if you don't like who you're dancing around, you just move. If you want to play frisbee, you can, like if you want to whatever, like you're in the park, you already like to hang out in the park. Let's add music to that. And so that's something that's been really exciting. People bring their kids and you know, with the baby headphones. And uh I've literally seen from like maybe one to eighty in terms of the age at Onto the Trees, and and I'm really proud about that. And and I think it's sort of changed the stigma around EDM and rave culture in general. Um, I know that in Montreal they they had a very live electronic music scene. It was just like a normal thing that you did. Uh, and then here I remember I said, I'm gonna throw a rave in the park, and they're like, You're gonna do what?

SPEAKER_01 12:58

And you're talking city, tell them that.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, and and I had and I talked to the police and stuff, and and everyone was very kind of like apprehensive, you know. It's like we're not trying to do this drug-infested thing. I'm like, oh no, like I'm a professor of music here. I'm not I'm not trying to throw an illegal drug ring or something, you know. Like, I'm not I'm not doing any of that. And so, but it it took a little bit of throwing these events. I mean, people had to give me trust. I mean, I think that they probably saw it, okay, yeah, he's a professor, like let's let's try it out, you know, like at the penitentiary, for example. It's like, okay, what are you gonna do here? And this is crazy. And then it worked. And and they saw the crowd, they saw how friendly people were, they saw how it was kind of mixed ages. Now the penitentiary is 21 plus because of alcohol laws. But in general, the everyone looked at it and thought, wow, actually, this is a really positive thing. It's bringing people together, you know, from their phones to the public parks to dance together, people are making friends, they're cross-generational. And so um, I think it's really changed the perception of EDM. And the word rave is still fraught with its generational meanings. I mean, I think the generation before me looks at that word with a very particular meaning. We might look at it differently. I think the generation that's younger than me sees it, you know, as kind of like freedom of expression, and they don't I don't know if they associate drugs at all with it. And so it it's a it's a fraught word. I think it's a productive word because it it kind of well, it's at least productive for social media. Yes. Um, and but it's less productive for people with money and investors, and so we're I'm trying to figure out how to market this stuff, and so we we do like EDM pop up, pop-up is is kind of the word I'm using now, but you know, that's different than Rave. Like Rave communicates a lot, maybe maybe too much sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah, I hear what you mean. Um that's hard to try and like word shop these things to make them sound good to people who might invest. That's tough. Yeah. Um, I remember my first time going to uh a festival, and I like how you said people can come in and express themselves. That's what it's all about. And I still remember going there. Like I had been to a few little raves here and there around town. Um, but going to my first like overnight festival, beyond one line at the gorge, yeah, and complete culture shock. Like in there and in the best way. I'm I'm getting like I'm getting little butterflies thinking about it. But it's like you literally get to choose your avatar. You can wear whatever you want, whatever you want, doesn't matter. Wear whatever you want. People have you can like I thought of it like a video game. Yeah, you can like equip yourself with you know, people are juggling the glow balls or you know, people are swinging the the poi around or yeah, did I say it? Yeah, I think so. Um, but people have all sorts of stuff. There's people like spinning the towels, and um man, it was just so cool. And you literally just get to like disconnect from this like concept of society that we have where we have to, you know, uh obey these unspoken rules and go into this and go into that because that's what we're supposed to do. But at the rave, at the rave, it's you can just let loose, dude.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

It's the best. It's the best. Yeah, it's it's a special place, I think.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yeah, and I think it's cool you're you're getting that out to the masses, and like, you know, I bet your event or you know, one of your events has have been some of the first times that people have even been to a rave or even listened to house music or whatever it is, and they're like, wait, this is actually kind of cool. Like, I actually like this. Absolutely. And uh I think it's a great gateway just for them to, you know, maybe express themselves in ways that they never have before.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

I I totally agree. And even within electronic dance music, you know, when people say, I don't like EDM, it's like, oh, what are you talking about? Which yeah, I'm like that's massive. Yeah, like I mean, we have so many subgenres. I mean, there's like 200 subgenres and and so many different styles of of EDM and so forth. So, like, what are you even talking about? You know, it's like this is a massive, like, that's how most music is produced today. And so, uh yeah, uh that's been kind of fun too. When people just they're like, man, I didn't know I love this. Like, where can I get more of it, you know? And uh so then they go to Space Banana or the space, and that now there's a whole scene around it in Boise. And not to say that there wasn't, you know, before Under the Trees, but I think I think it's progressed pretty uh fast and and the growth has been pretty tremendous in the last two years since I've been here, at least from what I can tell.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I think so. I think Under the Trees has been a catalyst to help places like Space Banana, who maybe people were like, oh, what is what is Space Banana? Or what is uh what is like a true dance club, you know? Because we have the downtown scene, but right none of it is like true, none of it's true EDM, like true dance culture. Yeah, exactly. They're very commercialized. Yeah. Um yeah, and so yeah, where do you see the growth? I mean, obviously we have Space Banana, which is the the local, what do they even call it? A mini club.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Yeah, so Space Banana, um, so I I help out at Space Banana because I mean fundamentally I'm interested in this an electronic music scene writ large. And so Space Banana's interesting. I mean, Space Banana's uh I I I I again I assist with sort of the creative direction and so forth. And and Space Banana's culture is massive. Like its online presence is huge, uh it's uh it's outreach is huge, uh, but it's the smallest nightclub by far in Boise. Uh so it's like the s I I consider it like the smallest, biggest club. And it it it feels when you're in there and nobody's there, it's it's like wow, this is so small. I'm like in a shoebox. And then all of a sudden when you have a hundred people there, it's like, oh my god, this is massive. Like this feels so exciting and the energy is so incredible. Um, but they've uh expanded, um, we've expanded into this space, and so there's now space banana and then the space, which is uh connected by a hallway. Um, and so those sometimes run at the same time, sometimes just the afters. Um but I mean when I got to to Boise, most of the EDM events were at Treefort Music Hall or the knitting factory, and it was like a big act, and so then you know, we would go and then like well where do I go to listen to house? And then space banana opened, and and that worked for a while, and then some issues and blah blah blah. It it changed fundamentally the way its business operated, um, which I had a big role in. And then um now I I remember Under the Trees had an after party there, and it was absolutely bonkers, crazy. And and I remember telling people like, yeah, we're gonna go to like 5 a.m. and uh and then because that's what Montreal did. Like Montreal has clubs called stereo, they would start at 12 and then go till 8 a.m. and wow, yeah, and so they had stereo bar, which would be kind of like 11 to 1, and then you would go to stereo club, which would be you know one. One is when most people started to go. Um, some people would go to sleep and then like go to the club at like you know three or four a.m. Um, and so in my head I was thinking like this is what we could do, and then everybody left at like you know 2 45. And I'm like, wait, what the heck? And so I'm like, oh, that's so interesting. There's actually not an afters culture in Boise yet. Uh and so every under the trees we started pushing afters, uh, which was a logistical challenge to have to like figure out how to you know tear down but also get everybody going to another place. Like it was a real challenge. Um, but but now actually every Friday and Saturday, Space Banana is crazy, crazy packed from two to three thirty, sometimes four. Um, and so there's an afters culture now, and and actually uh the the the the police in the city likes it because people are you can't serve alcohol after two, so you can kind of dance it off, uh you know, yeah, and kind of sober up a little bit. And then Ubers are super expensive at two o'clock, so might as well pay the cover at Space Banana to to go dance, you know, reduce like end your night on a positive note, right? And so um I'm I'm really excited about that, and I think that's just growing, you know, as more people move in and it's just gonna get bigger.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I love the pure like logical reasoning, like hey, I'm going to the afters, Uber's gonna be cheaper. Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm a little buzzed right now, I need to get back to zero, right? And then I'll call it Uber, whatever it is. Yeah, exactly. That's so funny. Yeah, um, yeah, the space just opening up, that's pretty sweet. Do you think? Um, I mean, obviously they're gonna let that ride for a little bit, but do you see the possibility of like a true dance club, like a full-sized club coming to see?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

So uh they as I understand it, both of them will be separate forever. So it'll be the space banana and then the space conjoined by the hallway. Um, and the nice thing about that is that it just gives you a lot of options. So the space banana, I mean, it's a real party in there when you get 60 people, it's super fun. Um, and and so to fill both spaces combined, that that footprint suddenly makes Space Banana and the Space the biggest club in Boise. Uh so with it which is very interesting. And so, but yeah, the the space has a really good sound system. It's a 360 stage and it's got subs in every corner and and tops. Um, but we're gonna upgrade and So it's gonna we're gonna have the best sound system in Idaho, Pacific Northwest, and I mean it it's gonna be a premium experience. And and my model again is Montreal, like the stereo club DJs wanna play there. It's one of the best clubs in the world. It has a 360 setup, although the DJ's on on a stage, but the sound is 360. And so it that's what distinguishes it. I mean, Space Banana has a uh a custom HSD Hennessy sound design, and it's powerful, it's a very powerful system, but it's also very crisp and clean. Like if you listen to some of the other clubs, you they they're boomy and you know you'll feel the bass, but there's nothing like the crispness of the bass at Space Banana because those cabinets are more rigid, everything's just structurally uh more refined, and so the sound is really hard to beat. And so the space is gonna have sort of the most premium, and Space Banana already has the best sound in the state, as far as I'm concerned, for a nightclub. So uh yeah, that's kind of like the direction it's headed.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Wow, that's cool. I think that is important that you have premium sound, especially in a place where like the music is the main event.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Um I used to play at certain places, yeah, um, speakers would cut out. Speakers were like so old, or like something would go wrong, the sub would blow out, and commonly I'd be trying to turn it up and there'd be nothing and granted at these bars that I was playing at. Like the music wasn't the main event. Yeah. The socializing and the the being around and being out was the main event. But as somewhere where the music is the main event, it's gotta be gotta be up to par.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

And when when I first got here, I actually went to some of those clubs and uh because I wanted to throw some events in them, and I said, Hey, I'd like to bring in speakers and you know, do it like XYZ, and they and they they were kind of like, Yeah, we don't need that. So I thought, okay, so you don't care about sound, so I can't work here. Like because sound is everything for me. I mean, that's what I I'm obsessed. So yeah, uh that was another thing I think that for me with under the trees was very important. I wanted to bring big sound systems so people could feel the bass, they could hear everything clearly. You know, that that was big for me because in Montreal, that's where I went was who has the best sound system because they had a ton of clubs, you know, and so you you pick the ones that that that leave a sonic, you know, imprint in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

100%. Yeah, you gotta feel it. That's half the experience. You gotta let it pulse through you, and yeah, you gotta be a part of it. Exactly. Yeah. Um, that's awesome. Um, I know you said when you're trying to set up afters and kind of keep the party rolling and things, there were some logistical challenges. Yeah. Um, I'm sure you've ran into a ton of bumps in the road as anyone does when they're starting up a business. What have been some of like the maybe the biggest challenges for you and and how have you overcome them and and moved forward?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah. Well, I remember last year at the at the penitentiary event, um, so we had a record attendance, you know, sold out. Uh, and I I headlined that show, and I mean, I was looking out at this sea of people just dancing and smiling, expressing themselves, and I was I I played it all original set, music I just made. I mean, it was like this felt like one of the highlights of my entire life. It it felt absolutely incredible. I mean, it was just like I can't believe that I'm doing this right now, like I can't believe we got to this stage, like that our stage was very professional, lighting was professional, like everything about the event just was so professional. And then, so the the event ends, and I'm I'm you know, you get kind of this high after a performance that's just tremendous, and and uh everyone's going to the afters, and then it was like, okay, it's time for teardown. And it's like, okay, we're you know, who's who's gonna tear down? It's like, oh, that's gonna be me. That's gonna be me, that's gonna be Nathan, that's gonna be you know, there's like four of us, and you know, the lighting company they're gonna tear down, but otherwise, I'm gonna have to tear all this down. And so I was there for for two hours, uh, you know, taking down the speakers, moving tables, like you know, just massive grunt work. And so you still you still have this high from the performance, but you're and and then it kind of clicked in my head like, okay, we're we're there, but we're also not quite there, you know. Like there's still elements that God, I I, you know, this is a ton of work for this. Like, and and and I did all the work going up into it, you know, the marketing, making the reels, making the music for the reels, making the you know, just the the emails, the writing, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, like all the coordination and stuff, and it's like you know, that's a real challenge. And and and I think that the amount of work that I've put into under the trees has been uh honestly, like, I I don't even know. It's been crazy, you know, like absolutely crazy. Like you the amount of money that I've made from under the trees is zero. Uh, and the amount of time I put in is is just like so far beyond. But you know, it it it's hard to quantify that thing in terms of money alone. I mean, we're in the entertainment industry that's different from like accounting or or uh you know, I don't know, like some less less fun thing. Like it's super fun. When it when an event works out well, it's uh it's just like incredible. And the and I see the joy and so forth. And so it's hard to to quantify the value of some of these things. And so I I suppose the growing pains have just been figuring out how to make these events like have under the trees grow. I mean, again, at the very beginning, I I was delusional about how much things would cost, and and the first year I was in the red. And on the outside, it doesn't look like that because you you see full events, they're you know, it's like, oh great, they're they're killing it, you know. And Tom's in and is at home swimming in his money bed. Of course, right? And some people thought that it was like, oh, he's taking advantage of blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, man, if only you knew, like, you know, the amount of like I have to keep this thing running because now it's become a machine and now it's paying people and not you know, and so it's uh it's not easy, and you know this from starting a business. Like there are times and I think when it when it's everything's running well and it looks great from the outside, but then you have all these bills that you gotta pay that to to get the place running in the first place, and and yeah, so it's not easy. Um, I'm still learning, honestly. I don't think I've figured it out. Uh and we'll see where it goes. Like things could change if investors come in or other big players come in and want to see this go in different directions, and the the the kind of space banana. I mean, I sort of have like four projects. I got the Space Banana Project, the Under the Trees Project, Dr. Tom, now another one, posing so my own music projects, and then I'm a professor of music, and so it's like, I don't know, how do I balance all this? Where do I put my time? And I don't know the answer to that.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

It's hard, right? They're all kind of in the same umbrella, but they're all so vastly different.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah, so different and and sometimes they they work really well together, and then other times I'm like, man, I'm just really busy.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Yeah, it's the uh it's the dilemma of choice, right? Yeah. Um if you could I mean I'm sure you've thought about it, like going all in on one of them. Um like if you could go all in on under the trees and have that be like your full-time dick gig, would you wanna would you want to go for that?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Um, I I don't know. Yeah. That's I've I've struggled to to come to that. Uh, you know, like would I go on all on all in on my music project? I I don't know. I I I seem to like often what happens is I make a track, I'm really excited about it, and then I use that track to help promote Under the Trees because it's not copyrighted and it's not released. Um and so that there there's sort of like a a natural path there, and I found a good groove in all of that. Um and then I play that track out and I think people hear it and it's like, oh I I know this track. Oh yeah, it's because it's been in the reels. Uh but yeah, I I don't know. I it's something I need to figure out.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Yeah, fair. Yeah. Still got time and I feel like things are are plugging away. Yeah. Um man, that's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

I got you a present.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. Very curious. Are you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

You got any idea what I'm you you have, there's no way you'd guess.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

I don't think I would guess.

unknown 30:10

Alright, let me get it for you.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

I need a name for this segment. I've done this before. Yeah. Here's our segment. Giving a guest a random thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Oh, dang. There you go. I got you some cereal. This is my favorite cereal. Did you know that? Is it really? Yeah. That was just lucky guess. Really? That's insane. No, seriously, like this is the cereal that I always get. And not and I add maple to it, so I don't buy the maple one. Oh, I see. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

When when are you normally eating that cereal?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

You know, I'm a nighttime cereal guy. Okay. Yeah. Usually around 1 o'clock 1 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Yeah, like post-club or maybe maybe pre-club, depends.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Or or after. Yeah, both. Yeah. But but late. I mean during the week, you know, 1 or 2 a.m. I like it. Yeah, this is this is fuel.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Uh when I was when we were setting this up, I text you. I said, hey, is 9 a.m. good? You said that's too early. I was like, 9 a.m. I mean the gym guy coaching 5 a.m. classes, you know, we're on the different schedule. Oh man. But uh you feel like you do your best work uh late into the night.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

You know, I've always been a night person, and um more lately I've I I talked to so many people and and I say, Oh yeah, I'm more of a night person. And it's like, yeah, I wish I could be a morning person. And I thought, like, man, that would suck to live a life where I'm constantly wishing that I was a morning person. And so I've taken the opposite stance. I'm like, I don't want to deal with the morning. Like, I'm up late, and I mean, I think for morning people and night people, the the unified element of both of those is that you have time where there's not other people bothering you. Like there it's you're not getting emails or phone calls, or it's just your time to do what you need to do. And so for me, that's at night, which goes into the weekend for the clubs and so forth. I mean, you know, the parties and events don't really get started until 12, 12 o'clock at night, Fridays and Saturdays, and so um, and then the afters, and so yeah, I'm up, I'm up till two or three most nights by choice. And and I get to have that because I'm a professor, so I move my classes later. My classes start at 11, sometimes three. And honestly, I think it's a good thing because a lot of musicians are playing late night gigs anyway. I teach music classes, so for me it works. Uh, but when I first arrived here, they I had classes every day at 8 a.m. And that that hurt. Brutal. Really hurt. Brutal. Yeah. That was that was tough.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Oh man. I uh the part about having that alone time where you can just be by yourself and like I love I'm a morning guy, and so getting up when I when I don't have any commitments in the morning and I get, you know, 6 a.m. to 9 a.m. or whatever it is, just to do whatever I want to do. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah, it's really nice. I think it's smart that you have listened to your schedule and what you have going on. Um, I know for me personally, when I was DJing, staying up till two in the morning, or not even staying up till two in the morning, getting done with work at 2 a.m. Yeah, exactly. Hacking up, going home, just oh, cooked, and then trying to go to bed and continue to be a morning person. Yeah, it doesn't work. It was hard. I think it's clever that you're just like, nah, I'm a night owl, I'm gonna do my thing at night.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yeah, I think I mean I think you can get the worm either on a tail end or the in the morning, you know.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah, agreed. Yeah. Um, yeah, tell me a little bit about uh the music you've been working on.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah, so um I don't know if a lot of people knew this about me. I mean, I I'm a professor of music. I uh my my stage name, which is my name, is Dr. Tom. And people were like, Oh, you're like a medical doctor? Like, no, I'm not a medical doctor. Uh I have I have a doctor of philosophy and music, music theory. Um, but I did my master's in piano, so I was a concert pianist for a little while, and I I've studied Beethoven, and I I wanted to be a composer, and then somehow I got into electronic dance music. I I think well, so long story short, I did an undergraduate degree in physics and astrophysics and piano performance, and like the physics component is expressed in audio production and like waveforms and stuff like that. And so I I love electronics and turning knobs and and those things, and then I love music theory and composing. And so I've tried to basically take Dead Mouse style music and some other artists as well, and then take that my my study of Beethoven and how he worked, and try to fuse that somehow and make music that that honestly I've I've been playing out and testing it in front of crowds and it's been working well. So I'm really excited about that. I haven't really I've only released one track. I don't know why. I have like two hours of unreleased music, and um, you know, I do all original sets and I have a lot I love producing and I want to take it somewhere, but I need to like release music and do something with it, you know. Yeah. Uh but I yeah, I'm actually starting another project called Posen, which is my last name, which is kind of um, I don't know, the Dr. Tom thing is very like it it's just so forward, like it puts everything forward. I I sort of wonder, you know, it gives me an advantage in some ways, like, okay, yeah, here's this producer with a doctorate in music theory. Okay, let's check him out. But I but then the other one is like, okay, there's this person I don't know, and then maybe if they discover after the fact, like, oh, he also studied Beethoven. So it's like, oh, that's interesting, you know, like as a side quest of like, oh, I like the music. Oh, it turns out there's more behind it. Oh, cool, you know, rather than like front front loading the I I don't know. I don't know which one's gonna work, but I'm sort of gonna explore both of those angles and um see what happens, I guess. I don't know. I'm just uh I'm pushing it. I mean, fundamentally, all this is happening because uh I wanted to be a musician, but I didn't want to be a poor starving musician, so I thought, okay, one way to do that would be to be a become a professor of music and work, you know, teaching music, which I love to do, and research and so forth, and then that would enable me to be an artist and create without the constraint of having to make money from that. Um, so that's kind of the goal. I don't know what that's gonna look like, and and I need to like probably integrate some of my piano abilities. I've kept them pretty separate for the time being and and so forth. But um, but yeah, I started when I first started, I would put my tracks in with a bunch of other tracks and and just kind of see what happens, you know. And then if it's a flop, it's like, oh, it's not my track. But if it is, yeah, next uh but but it but if it went well, I was like, okay, awesome. Like my my track works right next to Dead Mouse's track. Like people like it, cool. And then last year, year and a half ago, I realized like actually, you know, maybe people don't know that I'm playing my own music. And so I I thought, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna try something, I'm gonna be a little vulnerable, and I'm gonna just do an all-original set. I'm just gonna tell people, like, this is all my music, you know, like take it or leave it and judge me however you want. And and it went really well. And then I did it again at TreeFort, and now I I almost do that like all the time now. And so, but now I'm kind of going the other direction, like this weekend. I'm gonna play something that has none of my tracks, and so I'm just kind of like exploring all of that. DJing is is strange, you know, compared to other forms of music. Like if you're in a band, you can play covers, but it still sounds like your band, right? But that's interesting, yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, but most DJs are not playing anything they've made, they're just play they're kind of curators and diggers, and you know, there's different DJing styles and so forth. So anyway, I don't know. I'm I'm exploring that.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

I like it. It's nice. That is cool that you've uh you've created a platform with under the trees where you can like you've you've made a a service where you can test your product just right inside of it, which is yeah, there's so much synergy there. That's so nice.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

No, it's true. And I can envision the crowd too when I'm making stuff and what they might react like, and now that I've played out in front of people enough. And uh yeah, like I I make specific things for that event. So like our last one, I built this like intro, uh, uses uh uh Carmina Barana's O Fortuna, and it has this uh so George Bizet, he's a composer, and it has like this saying, it's like we are under the trees, and it's like wow, it's you know huge. So to and I think that's really special. Like it's it, you know, this isn't happening anywhere else, it's happening right here in Boise at you know at nine o'clock. And I think that that's that's really special.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

That's cool. Um man, where do you see uh under the trees going forward in these next six months, one year, two years? Where what's what's the road for under the trees?

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Well, um, it's a great question, and it'll depend uh in part on Space Banana. Um, but I think the original vision that I had was again picnic electronic and uh Iglofest. And uh I I I had this like build-up phase towards that. Toward the the first park party was honestly like phase five. And what I had planned for the first park party was maybe like phase two, and it so it went from phase two to five uh uh like in the week. And and I mean so extreme. Like I had I had a the first under the trees party was planned as a private party with the city with it with the Boise Parks and Rank. So private party means that like the restrictions and like it's a different set of permits, it's a different there's different rules. And what happened is three days before the first event, Boise Parks and Rank called me and they said, This is not a private party. And I said, What do you mean? Like it's invite only, you know, it's and they said, But we've seen your marketing, like this is gonna be huge. And I was like, Okay, so what what do you need me to do? And they're like, Well, you have to file it now as a special event, not a private party. I'm like, Okay, well what does that mean? And it's like, well, you need a million dollar liability insurance, you need blah blah blah blah blah, like you know, all these things, and I'm like, or you have to cancel the event. And you know, the cat's out of the bag, like the marketing's already happened, and so I was like, Oh my god. So I I called all these insurance companies, I I got event liability insurance. I mean, I I I buttoned it up like literally in two days, and thank God, because and then the actual event itself, I mean, 300 people showed up, like it blew my mind as to how fast it went, and so it just sort of changed uh everything, and so now I I kind of know how it goes. Um, but I I I one day I'd like to have a big festival. And so Tree Ford is a is an inspiration. Um, you know, that happens in March. I would like to see a EDM focused festival. But the question I have in my head is should it be once a like a one-week thing, or should it be smaller and and you know, twice a month? And I I don't know the answer to that at the moment. Um you know, as you as you get bigger, everything gets more complicated. You know, if you get to a thousand people, the city requires that you have an ambulance on site, it like the costs you have to have police on site and they're very expensive per hour. So everything just gets more complicated very quickly. And that probably wouldn't need to be my full-time job or avenue to have someone to do all that. And so I'm not ready to sacrifice my job as a professor and and so I kind of have to just balance that. So probably it's gonna it's gonna be once every two months, maybe once a quarter in the summer more active because the parks are so fun.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

It is. Yeah. Yeah, I think uh I think you're pretty spot on with that. Seems like you thought through that pretty thoroughly with running like one huge event would be so cool. And I think it would be a blast. But I do think you're right in that you'd need quite a bit of help. I know just from running my House on High Rocks event a couple weeks ago, that was a I was almost too big for my britches there. It was we it was we were pushing the limits of what me and a couple I had a couple people helping with events team and um was pushing the limits. And it was like, ooh, that could have gone bad.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Everything went smoothly, everything went very smoothly, but anything bigger, I would have been in trouble. And that's like all it takes is one bad event or one accident to happen to put a little tarnish on on whatever you're doing. And so I think treading carefully there and approaching with caution is is uh the best move.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Yeah, I think so too. And and the you know, the bigger you go, the more money that's there, but also the more risk. And uh and again, I've just constantly seen in Boise that sometimes it's it's a big city and it's like wow, there's a ton of people. And then sometimes I'm like, where is everybody? You know, where'd you go? Like what happened? You know, a downtown's dead, like what the heck, you know? And then sometimes it's the opposite. And so I I just have to remember that it's a growing city, but it's not you know, it's not a major metropolitan, like you know, Montreal, New York, or Chicago or LA. It's not it's not there yet, and there's signs of it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Yeah, I think we're I think we're pacing forward. I think Space Banana came at the right time. I think you came at the right time with Under the Trees. Um Yeah. Um I think the expansion of the space has been great. Um I haven't been there yet. I'm excited to go check it out.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yeah, I'm playing this Saturday. Are you nice? Okay, that's late. Understood. Might be faster, but uh it will it will be.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Yeah. Okay, say I uh go back to school and I I sit down in one of Dr. Tom's classes. What's uh what's Dr. Tom in the classroom looking like?

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Yeah, man, I'm having a blast. So at the College of Idaho, it's a small private liberal arts college, and it's been a great fit for me because uh I'm you know, at a bigger school, I would be one of a couple music theorists teaching classes. At the College of Idaho, I am the music theorist teaching the class, and they let me define the curriculum. And so what that ultimately means is that I get to create really fun, cool classes. So I have a class called electronic dance music. Uh so I teach everybody how to produce in Ableton, I teach DJing, um, and then we read about some of the culture, like we read about festivals or artists and stuff like that. And so uh, and then at the end of the like the final exam was to make a remix of a track, so we split vocals out of another track, and then the other part of the final exam was to uh submit a fully produced track. Wow. So that's so cool. Yeah. So like and and it's we build up to it, right? Like we make uh we make drum loops and then we make uh synth loops and then we make builds and then we make drops, and so we we I teach them along the way, and I I was so happy with the results this this semester. And then um the other class I teach is called uh Go Viral. Uh it's called Music Multimedia and Marketing. And so it's kind of really what we do is we watch reels and TikToks in class and analyze them. And like, why is this so effective? College. And really trying to figure out like what what's so interesting about this. I mean, we've watched some of your videos. The the one uh where you have the baby in the door. You watch that class? Yeah, let's go. That was fantastic. And the one now where you're jumping on a table, and um so yeah, and they're really effective. And so uh bring it in front of the class, like why does this work? And then can we try some other things, you know? Uh and then and then I teach uh uh music production class, and then I I classical music theory. Um yeah, and and so I ha I teach the traditional stuff too, like you know, Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, that type of stuff. Um, but but I'm getting to go into these new realms with electronic dance music and sound design and how do we make sounds and stuff like that. And so uh that's really fun. And and this is this is the other part of the under the trees where everybody's welcome because my students will come to my sets. That's so cool. Yeah, and uh I appreciate that. And people kind of are like, how do you feel about that? Like it's in the club, and it's like, well, what's wrong with the club? You know, it's like, oh, it's like, well, people are you know drinking and stuff. It's like, well, yeah, but if you're responsible, you know, like I I have a strong, I have a good relationship with my students, and and ultimately I want them to come to my set, have a great time, and then show up in class when they need to show up. Like, I'm gonna show up, you know, we're both gonna show up. Like uh you we have lives, like we we do other things besides presenting in a certain way. And so I want them to come to my class because they want to learn, not because I have authority over them and you know, we'll take 10 points off their attendance grade or whatever. And so that's been really, really great, actually. Having and and then I can, you know, start my idiom class like here's here's a show I just did, and it's like, oh, he's actually doing it, you know, and so it's not just theoretical. Um, I think a lot of professors are kind of out in theory land, and I'm guilty of that too. Sometimes I I studied music theory for God's sake, but uh I I like this sort of like I'm out in the world doing it and I'm also in the classroom. That that's important to me. Yeah, you don't want to be the fat PE teacher.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. I don't want to be the fat PE teacher. Yeah, yeah. You're uh no, I think that's I think that's sweet. If I was at the club and my professor was behind the deck split, I'd be like, that's my professor right there. I'll see you on Monday.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Uh yeah, make sure you turn in your assignment on time, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:48

You know, um, I think that's great. I think uh I think it's cool that you're helping with the social media side of things too, which under the trees crushes on Instagram. Um thank you. What does that look like? Kind of building that up and and I know you guys do like comment and we'll we'll DM you and um yeah, kind of what are your Instagram tactics because you've been doing a great job of that.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Yeah, thank you. Uh likewise, by the way. Thanks. Uh yeah, I mean insta uh I I realized at some point that in s if you either get on the Instagram chain or you everybody else will and you'll lose. I mean, that really that's what it comes down to. And so the the idea I had in my head was how do I get people because I was just looking around myself and everybody's on their phone all the time. And all the time. What are they doing? Typically scrolling on something, whether it's TikTok or Instagram. And so it's like how do you get into that space? Like, how do you get into someone's phone, right? And so that was the the thing. I don't know. I I always had like an interest in editing videos, and and so I started to edit videos and um and I use my music. Uh, so I kind of make sort of music videos, I guess, and then overlaying text, and I've just you know, I again I really didn't know what I was doing when I started, but but I figured like, okay, I'm gonna cut on beat, I'm gonna make interesting visuals and stuff. And now I've made hundreds of reels and I've learned so much from that process of doing it. I've gotten a lot faster. I mean, it used to take me ten to twenty hours to make a reel. Whoa. I mean, yeah, just it I just I was just slow and uh I just didn't know I didn't have a good work process. And now, you know, I can put it together in a couple hours, but but I have infrastructure. I mean, I have a 80 terabyte server at home, we have professional cameras, we have drone shots, I mean, I have a whole catalog of music, like it, you know, it's grown big time. And and now I kind of have a better idea about what works. Uh so our last two reels, uh, we have around 40,000 views for this event. So we have each, so we have like, you know, we're approaching a hundred thousand views for this event. Like, I think it's gonna be a banger. Um, and so then there's automation to to because in the fur in the early days, I would respond to every single comment. And and like a couple of events, yeah, and I would send them every single person the location. And so it was it was uh I wanted authentic human connection. Um, and then it's just gotten to the point where you know there's 600 comments, and like I just can't, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 50:21

That's why up till four in the morning every day responded to DMs.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

But and and but but I still I I still try the there's a team that manages it now, and and I wanted to, you know, if someone sends a question, I try to respond. Um but it's it's it's just gotten so big that it's really hard to, you know, it's like someone asks, where's the event? It's like, okay, well, you should have watched the reel. Like the real tells you how to find the event, like you need to comment, you know, you need to do this to get the event. Um but but there was a lot of counterintuitive things. Like, I I remember um some some people asked me, like, how do I get a ticket to Antrees? It's like, well, you have to you have to like be on our guest list. And they're like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, why are you making it hard to buy a ticket? And it's like, well, that's the point. Like, like this is a special exclusive thing. Like, you you have to go out and find it, you know, it's like a treasure. And and that for some people was was you know extremely counterintuitive. And like, why don't you tell people where the location is? Like, don't you want people to know where it is? You know, it's like, well, yes, but but also no, like I, you know, like there's this interesting thing about it. And so, yeah, under the trees shares the time, the date, a lot of details about it, but does not publicly share the location typically. Um, you know, like when we advertise the penitentiary, it's like, okay, yeah, it's that's where it is, and so that kind of sells itself. Um, but but generally speaking, we don't advertise the location, and so that that part is kept secret. If it's a ticketed event, it's actually on the ticket itself. So and under the trees does some things that nobody else does. That's one of them. The second thing is that under the trees doesn't say who's gonna play at the events. Um and so and the reason is is that you go for the under the trees, you go for the under the trees experience. Like you just trust that if it's an under the trees event, it's gonna be a good event, and it's gonna be different DJs. Um, I'll play every every other, every third event. Um, and then otherwise it's a new fresh lineup. And you know, I I I do my best with some others to make good lineups and stuff, and so but that's very different, you know. Typically, artists sell, right? Like you book a headliner and then people go to that headliner. But that's not how Under the Trees works. Under the Trees has a is a brand that's so consistent and people like the event enough that they're gonna go even without knowing who's gonna be at the event.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

And I think that that filters out the people that you don't want to be there anyway, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like that guy who you you hit up to hang out, he's like, Oh, who's coming? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, just come, I guess come. If you don't want to come, don't come. Exactly. Um, no, I think that's cool that you don't tell people the location. It it does add a layer of like mystery and a little bit of like, oh, where's it gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Exactly. Yeah, and and and I thought about that too. Like, would I buy a ticket to a place I don't even know where it is? And I think the answer is yes. If if if there's a track history of of this company doing successful fun events, then uh yes, I would buy a ticket and be surprised by it.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Yeah, I think people need a little bit of uh people need that in their lives too, a little bit of mystery, a little bit uh what's gonna what's gonna happen, who's gonna be there, what do we bump into? I think that's uh I think that keeps things fresh for people too. Yeah, yeah. Um that's awesome. Um dude, it's been a great chat. What uh yeah, thanks for watching. What what has under the trees got going on? How can people get a hold of under the trees? How can people get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yeah, so um good. So yeah, under the trees.boise on Instagram. Uh that's that's the the engine. And then uh they can join our guest list and that gives them emails. And the emails like if you're on the guest list, you get earlier access to tickets before they sell out through Instagram and so forth. Um, so yeah, underthees.boisey. Um definitely if you're interested in EDM, go check out Space Banana, the space. Uh they're connected, so on Aethan Bannock. And that's another cool thing. Space Banana, you enter through an alleyway. It's not a front-facing property, it's kind of a speakeasy nightclub. I just I love that. Very similar to the under the trees, yeah, you know, ethos. Um, and then um for my own project, it's drtom.music on Instagram, and uh it's probably the best place. I have I have a website and other stuff, but Instagram is probably the easiest to contact. And so, but yeah, definitely check out the under the trees. Cool. Any final thoughts? Yeah, well, I you know it's it's nice reconnecting with you in this way. Uh again, I mentioned earlier in the podcast, Brian was one of the first, I don't even know how it happened. You must have reached out on Instagram or something and was like, hey, because you were DJing and it was like, hey, I want to like what what are you guys doing? I want to be a part of this. And I remember you came to the first, very first parked sound check. Which when I look at that sound check now, I'm like, oh my god, I I just it was so small and tiny compared to what it became. Uh, but you were there for that, so I appreciate that. And he and he played at the third parked party, I believe. Uh Ann Morrison. Yeah. Um good memory. Yeah. And uh yeah, I just I remember I remember that that phase and then and then watching you start your company and the success of that. And so it's it's been a real pleasure watching that from your side. So and now this podcast, and like we'll see. I mean, boys see, this is like melting pot, like we're all pushing, you know, it's a new frontier, so let's like let's just make it a fantastic place.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

Rock on, dude. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, thank you.