Dr. Dad Mundt
I am a therapist that sits down with my Dr. Dad to hear the stories he has before he dies.
Dr. Dad Mundt
How do we forgive?
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Welcome to the Dr. Dad Podcast!
I set out to hear all the stories that have shaped my dad throughout his life!
Every week I will be sitting down with my dad and trying to get as much wisdom, advice, and lessons out of him before he dies. Even if I never release this to the world, I will save it as a keepsake for my great great grandchildren to know his voice and learn all that they can from him.
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Welcome to the Dr. Dad Podcast. I'm your host, Becca Rocinos. I'm a clinical therapist by profession, but a daughter by birth. So I'll be sitting down with my dad to get life lessons and wisdom out of him each episode. So, enjoy. Dad, it's so funny. Wait, did I just call you dad?
SPEAKER_00You're dad.
SPEAKER_02I usually call you Dan. Dr. Dad.
SPEAKER_00I am your dad.
SPEAKER_02It's so funny because we started this podcast with the idea that I was just gonna hear your stories because you have a lot of good stories. And it so naturally turned into us sharing the gospel. I was just thinking that. And I was thinking, I mean, I've been praying about this podcast, and the whole time it's just I feel the sense of speak Jesus, just speak Jesus, talk about Jesus. And so it's naturally gone this way, and I absolutely love it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I what else is there?
SPEAKER_01What else is there? Literally.
SPEAKER_00I mean, uh, yeah, I I have a little thing when I preach, and I heard it from somebody else, so it's not original with me, make much of Jesus.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I want on this podcast, I want my life to make much of Jesus. Um, we live in a society that that is increasingly narcissistic where we make much of ourselves. And man, that that doesn't uh lead to healthy anything. When we make much of Jesus a starting place, it changes everything. Yeah. And if we make much of other people, it changes everything. Um, and get the attention off ourselves. And I think someday we'll do a podcast on the power of humility. And that is so important and so missing in our culture. Humility. And so, yeah, make much of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I remember just last week I was asking Eric, I was like, is it a bad thing that this has just gone full-on gospel? Like, should I be overthinking this? I kind of felt almost like exposed for my beliefs. If that sounds weird, and he goes, Stop it right now. Like, why would you be embarrassed if I'm tired of feeling like I have to hide what I believe because of the current world or being judged? I mean, look at Jesus. That's all he was the whole time was judged and not liked. And I had this fear that, oh no, people are gonna know what I believe. And I was like, oh wait, people are gonna know what I believe. I should be talking about it. But I had this hesitation. I really did. I I was asking Erica, I was like, is this the enemy? Because I feel like I shouldn't be this open about my beliefs. And I was like, Are you kidding me? Like, that's not that's stuff from God. I should be speaking this from a mountaintop. So I'm so glad that this is happening. The gospel is being shared.
SPEAKER_00You think the reason why you maybe felt that way is because you have a secular job. You have clients that aren't necessarily Christian.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly I have it easy.
SPEAKER_00I have, I mean my whole world is uh connected to the to preaching.
SPEAKER_02That is exactly why, because this is public, and I do have a lot of clients that do not align with my beliefs, and I completely respect that. We operate in their value system, and I will never ever push my beliefs on them. But I do have this hesitation that one of my clients is gonna look at this and not want to and think that I'm judging them or think that I have a bias or something. I don't know. I just don't want it to interfere with the work that I'm doing with clients because I will always respect what they believe. Right.
SPEAKER_00Or they may be able to do this and say, that's why you're so kind, that's why you're so loving. That's why you can have joy.
SPEAKER_02He just did cognitive restructuring, guys. That is a therapeutic technique. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly what I was aiming for. They could have no idea what that is.
SPEAKER_02Maybe they're challenging, maybe they're challenging themselves to be more accepting of their beliefs or other beliefs and challenging their own biases. Because maybe they're like, oh, Becca doesn't seem like the usual Christians I meet. So that's awesome. That's different than what I've experienced in the past. So maybe I don't know. That's cognitive restructuring too. But um, yeah, there has been this hesitation, but I'm not gonna be ashamed for what I believe. I will never push it on my clients. I will operate in their value system, but I'm not gonna be ashamed for personally believing in Jesus Christ as my savior ever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and this is our podcast. And don't watch it. People have an option to not watch. That's so true. But I hope they do. I hope they see a Jesus that that maybe they've they're not used to.
SPEAKER_02Yes, you know, yes, I completely agree. So we want to circle back a little bit on a little bit, a lot of it, on forgiveness, because this is an essential part of the gospel, of relationship with Jesus, of everything we believe, forgiveness, which we talked about last episode, but now let's take it to a practical sense. How do we forgive? And what practically no, what does it do to our overall health?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's uh what is the word you use? Cognitive. Restructuring. And maybe it's a good place to say is that what forgiveness is?
SPEAKER_02That's a great, great point.
SPEAKER_00Cognitive restructuring.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so cognitive restructuring is taking a faulty thought. First, you have to recognize that that faulty thought is faulty. Because usually faulty thoughts are automatic. We've thought them so long that they don't even need to be trained anymore. They just automatically come in. Um, so cognitive restructuring is this rewiring of the faulty thought. But first, you have to recognize that's not right. That does not align with the truth. That is um, and it's been there for so long that I need to come in and restructure my neuropathways to get it to be more aligned with who I am and my values. And so, yeah, that is a great place to start. That's a really good point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Uh, I just know that um in our culture, because and we've used this terminology before. I know some would disagree with it, but um, in our culture, it seems like there is this move towards if someone offends me, I just cancel them out of my life. And think if I I don't think of their offense, then that's okay. And or if somebody hurts me, I just cancel them out of my life. Um if if I've been wounded by someone, I'll just I'll not think of them anymore. They're not important to me. Yeah, I mean, we've called it cancel culture, I think. Um but I think there's a a better way to deal with that. And I think forgiveness is the way. Now, I want to be very clear. Uh, we understand that we're talking to people that have been victims of a crime, victims of abuse. Um, and in no way, I hope you hear us in no way claim that forgiveness is easy.
SPEAKER_02Or that it should happen right away.
SPEAKER_00Or that it that it happens quickly. Uh it doesn't. Um, that there's not work to be done in for in forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01Your feet are soaked. I just filled this water bottle because it's lit is so. You should close your lid of your water bottle. Sorry about that. That's all. Very clumsy people.
SPEAKER_00Will you forgive me?
SPEAKER_01Yes, now I will. See, it takes time sometimes.
SPEAKER_00But in no way are we saying that that there's not work in forgiveness.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00In no way are we saying there's not pain in forgiveness. And by the way, you can forgive somebody. I mean, I've forgiven people that I don't know that I can trust.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that might be your case. Um, you have to work on forgiving someone. That doesn't mean you invite them back into your life. That doesn't mean you give them the same place they had before. No way. No way. They haven't earned that trust. But still, forgiveness is something that that frees you more than it does the person you've forgiven.
SPEAKER_02We're not even saying you have to tell that person I forgive you. We're saying forgiveness comes from a mental, emotional, heart stance of letting go, of holding that bitterness that gets trapped everywhere in your body of saying, you know what, it's not gonna control me anymore, it's not gonna cripple me anymore. I forgive them. Not even saying you have to tell that person to forgive them. You can, because they may not have apologized. Yeah, they may not have repented.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that person may be dead, still doing it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe dead or still in this offense where you have to set a boundary.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_02But the forgiveness is saying, I'm not gonna hold that because it's impacting my life, my functioning, and I can't move forward if I'm still holding that over. Why am I giving them the power and what they did to create this bitter feeling where I can't trust anyone?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So forgiveness is a stance of heart and mind.
SPEAKER_00It is. And again, we we are not by any means saying that what they did to you wasn't wrong. We're not saying that at all. In fact, it was wrong.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But we are saying that the best pathway forward, uh, it's clear in the gospel, yeah, and it's clear in psychology today that the best pathway forward is forgiveness. Uh, I talked to a person, uh psychologist, about this because kind of one of my roles um with the Fourscore Church is I I work oftentimes with people who have offended. And uh and and that means that they're victims of somebody's offense. It's not just offense, it can be a crime, it can be, you know, abusive leadership, it can be abuse. And so I said to this person when I talk to somebody that has been a victim of that should should I talk about forgiveness? And this is what they said. Said the only way that person can get healed is by forgiveness. And any psychologist, any counselor like yourself, uh, I know you're you're not a counselor, you're uh a clinical mental health therapist, there's a difference clinical mental health therapist.
SPEAKER_02That's fine.
SPEAKER_00Um but any person that gives counsel like that, yeah, uh, if they don't help the person come to forgiveness, they they just are in this trap that keep a cycle that just goes over and over again. So if Jesus were not present and maybe somebody out there doesn't have a relationship with Jesus, you can still forgive people. What we're saying is with Jesus, he gives us the grace to forgive.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And but you can still forgive people and you should.
SPEAKER_02Um so but I can imagine it is so hard if someone does not know Jesus or hasn't received the forgiveness of Jesus. I can imagine how hard that would be to forgive someone who's wronged you if you haven't been in this place of, oh my goodness, I'm forgiven. This is the power of Jesus and the power of the gospel. I can imagine it is the hardest thing to do. And I mean, putting myself in those shoes, I would not forgive anyone.
SPEAKER_05Truly.
SPEAKER_02It would forgive me without Jesus. I don't, I just don't know how it's possible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Which kind of brings up can I share a scripture with you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because I didn't know where to go from there. This episode is sponsored by Dr. Dan Munt. He actually wrote a book. He would never say this on the podcast. That's why I'm here to say it today. He actually wrote a book, Empowering Leadership: How to Develop Empowered Followers. If you're interested in this book and you found anything that he's saying in these podcasts to be worthwhile, go and purchase this. The link will be down below and share it with your friends. It's really good.
SPEAKER_00I remember as a young man when I saw uh the scripture, uh, I thought, um, how do I do that?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then when I read it, I thought, Jesus, I have no choice. But listen to what it says in Ephesians 4, 31, 32. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you. So that's a starting point. Let all bitterness. Where does bitterness come from?
SPEAKER_02Unforgiveness.
SPEAKER_00And wrath and anger. Yeah. Oftentimes they come from unforgiveness. Clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. You can threw that one in.
SPEAKER_03That's good.
SPEAKER_00And then it says this to people who are children of God. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted. Now here's the clincher. Forgiving each other, just as God and Christ also forgave you. Wow. I mean, that says All right, goodbye.
SPEAKER_02See you next episode.
unknownThat's right.
SPEAKER_00And then in Colossians, the same writer, Paul, the Apostle Paul, so as those who have been chosen of God, so it's talking to Christians here, those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion. Put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. All has to do with forgiveness, by the way. Put on a heart of humility, gentleness, patience, bearing with one another, and forgiving each other. Whoever has a complaint against anyone, just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Wow. Wow. So um again, you know, hey, in the church world, we we dealt with church hurt uh a couple episodes ago. When we're in a community together, there are times that I'm going to hurt you, and there are times you're gonna hurt me. And that's part of being in a community. That's part of being in a family, by the way. And when I know Christ, I have to make a decision that I have to let that go.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the only way I can let that go is through forgiveness.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it starts with, of course, a relationship with Jesus and realizing you're forgiven. Uh, I mean, that's the foundation of everything else we do. In my viewpoint, this is my viewpoint now, you know, having dealt with a lot of a lot of people over time, the people who choose not for to forgive do go down that pathway of bitterness, clamor, slander, unkindness. And so many times when a person acts out like that, you have to just kind of go by, okay, what's really going on in your life? Who do you really, who are you really struggling with forgiveness?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, and I think um if someone's out there and they're realizing, I mean, people are out there because we live in the world. I don't know why I say it like that. But if someone is realizing right now that they haven't forgiven, I've been there. First of all. Second of all, I think it's important to pray that God would prepare your heart to forgive, to be in a stance of forgiveness. You don't have to do it alone because it is hard to forgive. You don't have to just make a mental decision, I'm gonna forgive them today. I mean, years and years of hurt that is hard to just let go of in one day. It's praying, asking Jesus to give you the stance, the help, forgiveness. I don't know if we can do it without the Holy Spirit and his help and guidance. And then a practical way, I think that's helpful, is kind of writing out all the things that you think they did that wronged you and burning it, getting rid of it, somehow letting go and a physical representation of letting go of those hurts is important. And is that okay if I share a personal story?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Are you sure?
SPEAKER_02You got anything else to say before I do?
SPEAKER_00No, I was gonna share a personal story too. Oh, you go.
SPEAKER_02No, I want to hear your story.
SPEAKER_00Uh, yeah. So when I was 16 years old, I worked at a a place, it was my second job that I ever had, and I worked at a place where I would pump gas, you know, these were back in the day where it wasn't self-served gas back then. By the way, it was all also 68 cents a gallon for premium. And uh I worked at a place where I was a gas, gas attendant, they called us. And I would pump gas, I would check the oil and vehicles, I would wash our windows, different things like that. I I love the job because I love cars. And uh probably about three months in, four months in, I got called to the main office, which this was this was if you picture a big mall. Well, this was outside of a mall. It was a gas station outside of a mall, but it was connected to a main store. Uh, I'll not give the name. And um, so I get get a call saying, hey, we want you to come to the office. So I walked across the parking lot to the office, and there there were two security guards there, and they began to drill me for about two and a half hours and said, We know you've stolen money, and um you need to confess that you've stolen this money. Well, I didn't steal money. I was 16 years old, didn't let me call my dad, all those things. Um, the only way I could leave the I was in that office for two and a half hours. I said, I didn't steal anything. Didn't steal the only way they'd leave me, let me leave is if I wrote a confession. And so to leave, I did. So anyway, went through lie detector tests, the the thing was thrown out, come to find out it was the manager that was actually stealing money. But when I gave my life to Christ at 18, now two years later, I had such bitterness towards that place. I couldn't get gas there. I couldn't even drive by. Uh I kept on envisioning these people that that sat over me. They were, they like sat on a desk and I was down here and said, You stole the money, you stole the money. And I I heard at 16 years old, I heard over and over again, I'm I I robbed them, you know, and I started to believe it myself. I started to believe it myself. But I came to Christ at 18, and still later on in life, I was struggling with that and starting to have anxiety attacks.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that picture came to my mind, and I said, God, the I I don't know how to do this. You're gonna have to help me because I hate them. I can't forgive. And I had the vision of what happened and it turned red. And that's when I read that scripture.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_00Even as Christ has forgiven you, and I I said to the Lord, Well, you've forgiven me of a lot. So I choose to lay it down. And I felt like, even though you know I still had to walk through some practical steps, I felt like I had forgiven. What's funny is I lived away, I came back, and I went into that gas station and I bought tires for my car. Yeah, which I would have never done.
SPEAKER_02It's amazing.
SPEAKER_00And I did it purposely. What forgiveness does is it really is amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that is such a good story and picture of the beauty of forgiveness. And I would say, if anyone's kind of like, are there areas where I haven't forgiven? Are there people I haven't forgiven? I would say, kind of think about it. Where do you avoid? Who do you avoid? Who do you think of and feel instant anger? Yeah. What do you see in instant anger? What in uh for the Gen Zers out? Well, I don't know if that's a word anymore, but like who do you cringe when they're there? Who do you try to stay away from? Um, who do you hope you never see again in your entire life? Those are kind of the questions, and just like that verse, who do you think of with malice, with anger? What do you think of with what situation in your life brings about malice and anger? And all you can do is you feel sick to your stomach almost when you think of that situation.
SPEAKER_00Blood pressure goes up and your heart starts.
SPEAKER_02I've been there, or it's awkward. And my story, I'll just share it really short because this, and I think it's so um key. That Paul is speaking this to Christians because he knows offense in the church, in the Christian world, will be the thing to destroy us. It will be the thing to divide us. Um, forgiveness is key, reconciliation is key. So five years ago in the church, my husband and I ran into an offense, and it's so funny. We don't even remember what went wrong. We don't even remember what happened. That made us so angry. But we left the church and we stayed away from these people for four years. Every time we were at a party with them, we'd avoid them. Every time, you know, we were in situations, we would try not to go in the same area as them. Um, we wouldn't say hi to them. And every time we just felt like this anger and this um mal, like just bitterness. And I remember looking at Eric and I said, wait a second, what did they even do? And he couldn't remember either. We don't even remember the offense. And I said, Eric, and this was when after we came back to Jesus and we just fully committed our lives to Jesus. I remember he specifically put this couple on my heart and said, You need to go and say sorry. Wasn't I need to ask for forgive or I need to say I forgive you, which I was thinking for five years that I needed to say I forgive you, and they needed to say sorry. For five years, I was thinking that. And Jesus said, No, have them over to your house. We haven't talked to them in four years. It was awkward. And um I said, I'm gonna bite the bullet, I'm gonna do it. I'm inviting them over. We're gonna make carne asada, I'm gonna make a cheesecake. I want them to feel so special and loved. And I'm not gonna say anything because I can't even remember about what happened four years ago. All I'm gonna say is I'm sorry. But it started with my forgiveness that I was because I couldn't even remember what I was forgiving, but I it started with my forgiveness to get to the point where I said, I'm sorry to them. And now let me tell you, we hang out with this couple five times a week. They watch my kids, I watch their kids. They're my they're my best friends, they're our best friends. And all I can point to is the reconciliation of Jesus. If I would have told a four-year-old, four-year-old four years ago that these would be the people I'm hanging out with and want to hang out with all the time, go on trips with, planning family vacations with, I would have laughed in her face. But this is the power of forgiveness. And I remember saying sorry so many times, and um, the husband looked at me and he said, Becca, you're free. And just hearing those words, it's like the power of Jesus, the reconciliation just broke all our pride. Um, there it's really no other, there's no way this could have happened without the Holy Spirit, is what I'm trying to say. And now they are our best friends. This, and I just said sorry three months ago, and they are our best friends. Yeah, and we hang out with them five times a week. Yeah, but we use something that we don't even remember to divide us, the offense that we don't even remember, just something who even knows what it was, to divide us. And it wasn't until the forgiveness happened that we found our village, our people.
SPEAKER_00That's so powerful. And power, I mean, you said it saying I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Saying I'm sorry. I mean, it's so powerful. And sometimes that's all someone is waiting for.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Somebody to say I'm sorry. And you know, I I'm reminded of another scripture in 2 Corinthians 5, it says we are ministers of reconciliation.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_00And if we are ministers of reconciliation, then we have to be really good at reconciling. We have to be really good at it. Um, I know of churches in a community that that can't stand each other. I'm talking church bodies that can't stand, the pastors don't like each other.
SPEAKER_02We need to get over that over it, especially in the church. There's enough of division in our world. Right. The church should be the place where we're unified, saying, sorry, I'm forgiving, reconciling over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and all my pastor friends would know this is true, but I'm gonna say it. There is only one body. Yeah. And that's people who have been bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. And it's not a Baptist, it's not an assembly of God, it's not a four-square. There's one body, and that's it. And we need to be, we need to set the world on fire because of our love for one another, even if we don't attend the same church.
SPEAKER_03We need to lead the charge.
SPEAKER_00Honor them. Yeah. But reconciliation and your story is so powerful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, because it really it breaks something off your life when you just decide, I'm gonna go for it. I'm going to forgive, and we can't do it without Jesus. Unforgiveness only hurts you, it doesn't hurt your offender.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oftentimes the offender has no idea they hurt you. Uh I know I've hurt people that I had no idea I hurt. I preached at a church uh this couple years ago, and um because of my role, I had to make a difficult uh decision on their pastor. So now, 15 years later, I'm speaking at the church, gets done. This lady comes up to me, she's crying, and she said, Pastor Dan, uh I heard your sermon today, and I I talked about forgiveness, and she said, I have to, I I said to the Lord, I want to forgive that man because I've been offended with you for 15 years.
SPEAKER_04And you didn't even know.
SPEAKER_00And I didn't even know it. Wow, I didn't even know it. And it I mean, she said it was silly, um, but it was real, it was painful, it was real, and um, you know, so I said, I forget, I I receive your forgiveness, be free. Be free. And so her unforgiveness wasn't hurting me. Yeah, it was hurting her, it was hurting her, and so forgiveness is I mean, we could probably do four or five more podcasts.
SPEAKER_02This is so much, I mean, we're both so passionate about this. Reconciliation is the gospel.
SPEAKER_00Reconciliation.
SPEAKER_02We should be reconcilers, yeah. Is that a word? Ministers of reconciliation.
SPEAKER_00The greatest way to preach Jesus is to show people how you can be forgiven and then to show an example of forgiving one another. I feel like preaching.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, me too. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening to Dr. Dad. If you found it interesting and you got something from it, that's great. If you didn't, that's okay. He's got 60 plus years of experience to share with you. So please share this podcast with your friends, with your family. We're available on all streaming platforms YouTube, podcasts, Spotify, Apple Music. I hope you have a great day or evening or night. Whenever you're listening to this, have a great one. See you next time.