What If Your Identity Is Bigger Than Fear

A job title can be useful, but it can also become a cage. We’re back with a fresh season and a real conversation about what happens when the world tries to reduce you to a single label, and you start believing it too.

We talk with Ginger, a trial lawyer who’s also a mother, a credentialed school psychologist, and a lifelong performer. She opens up about why it can feel safer to “play a role” than to be fully seen, especially in serious spaces like courtrooms and conferences where people expect a certain kind of person. From the inside, she’s balancing logic and data with creativity and spirituality, and she’s honest about the anxiety that comes with showing up as her whole self.

You’ll hear the origin of “snap out of it” and how we use it as a practical mindset tool: identify the limiting belief, interrupt the trance, and replace it with something true. We also dig into why fear keeps so many of us stuck, the “committee in your head” that feeds self-doubt, and a memorable windshield vs rearview mirror reminder that helps you stop living in old stories. If you’ve ever wondered where you fit, or felt pressure to be liked or accepted, this one is for you.

If this resonates, subscribe for the season ahead, share the episode with a friend who’s stuck in a label, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Welcome Back And New Season Energy

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Okay. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Good. Yeah? Yes. Welcome back. Thank you. I've been so busy with trials.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Oh my goodness, I can't only imagine.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

It has to be priority. Of course. But now I've prioritized myself and my creative side to intersperse between trials. So I just now tell bench officers I'm sorry, I'm not available in the month of April.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Power move.

unknown 0:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Sorry. Right. So good. Yeah. So how are you feeling today?

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Good. I'm happy to be back with you. I'm happy to be back doing this. And it's a different season.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

It's so fun because it was like, I think we started talking about bringing Snap out of it back over a year ago. And we both were like, when the timing's right, it will come together. We started the conversation. We kept in touch.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Right. We waited on the universe.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

We waited on the universe.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

And then the synchronicities began.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Which is wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

It's so exciting. And that's how you know you're like in the zone.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Yeah, that you're aligned with what you're meant to be doing and how things are supposed to go. And we're very excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

But sometimes the timing is hard to wait.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Patience, right? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

And then trust.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

And trust. Yeah. They're virtues for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Well, uh, people had to align. Oh, we're having guest speakers, their schedules all needed to line up, everything had to fall in place sort of like dominoes, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Yeah, absolutely. So when you're working with other people's schedules, you have to be mindful of that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Plus, we had to be in the space.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

And we have to lovely space. A lovely space. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

I thought this would be a good, uh, a good opportunity to kind of reintroduce people to you and um, you know, just start some conversation and kind of let people know what to look forward to in the coming episodes.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

And this is this is your first time on the this side of the camera. You could hear Alex in the previous version. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

I feel like we've always hear his voice, the podcast voice. It's the mysterious producer in the background.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yeah, but you bring the magic, so you have to be here, especially to reintroduce.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Yes, and I think like we always have had good conversations, so it was I've of course very flattered that you wanted me to be a part of it on on this side of things. Uh you bring the magic. When it makes sense. Well, thank you. You are it's kind of together

Reintroducing Ginger Beyond The Producer

SPEAKER_03 2:18

we bring the magic, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Okay, so I brought some questions. I thought we that would be the easiest way to kind of get things rolling and get the juices flowing and get people excited about what's to come this season. Okay. If that's okay with you. That's fine. Okay, amazing. Okay, Ginger.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

For people just meeting you, who are you and what should they know

Identity Feels Vulnerable Without A Role

SPEAKER_03 2:35

about you?

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Well, okay, it's this is hard for me. It's really hard to open up and say who I really am because I come from a background of dance performance. And so as a dancer, I could perform in a character. I didn't have to be me. So when you say who are you, and I have to share who I really am, it's a little bit um it's vulnerable. Yeah, I feel vulnerable and I feel a little anxious about it because uh opening up and being authentic and my true self with you is safe. You're my friend. Yeah. But then putting it out there for the world to see, and oh, what if, you know, I'm not somebody doesn't like what I say or they don't like the fact that I practice law, which I discovered people don't like lawyers. I was like, what on earth? So to answer your question, I am well, I'm gonna go with my career labels first.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

So I'm a lawyer. Sorry. And when I meet people, I try to not say that I'm a lawyer at the very beginning because I want them to like me. Oh, yeah. But apparently some people don't like attorneys. I don't know what's going on. And I thought that'd be such a great thing. Uh, I've been an attorney since the COVID pandemic.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

When people were some of my colleagues were closing their doors because they literally couldn't get in their offices. I was opening mine.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Wow. What a challenging time to begin that journey. That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Exactly. And you know, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere, right? I mean. So so I'm an attorney. Uh, I am a mother.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

I am a school psychologist, a credential school psychologist. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Yeah, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Well, it's like a data analyst. So instead of sitting on the sofa and talking about your childhood with a warm fuzzy type therapist, I put a propeller on my head and pins in my pocket and my glasses on, and I count the data and the statistics in a school for children that have special needs, right? Wow, okay. So the background is very uh statistical and data analysis, which is in line with my real personality.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

For seriously, no, it is.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

You have to until you see that.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

I am a logistician in the Myers-Brigg personality, like seriously engineer type person. But no one believes me because I'm also a dancer and a performer. I used to be a professional dancer for the NBA and also in college at UCLA, I was a dancer for the football and basketball team. So I'm used to performing, which is a creative outlet. So we were talking before the podcast started that this past two years since I we did season one has gone by. And I've been engrossed in the logical analytical world of law. And I've missed tapping into the creative right brain of performing.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Which I think is part of the reason why I want to, and we wanted to start season two to show um people how important it is to use both sides of their brain, left and right. Even if you I identify as a left brain person in your career or a right brain person in art, you know, in art or performing arts, whatever. Yeah, we can use both sides of our brain, which maximizes our potential and allows us to snap out.

Lawyer Mom Dancer Data Mind

SPEAKER_00 5:45

There it is. There it is. Of labels.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

And so you notice that I identified myself by my career labels.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Yeah, correct, yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

However, I don't identify in any label uh as a whole. I have many facets, as we all do, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

100%.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

And so the purpose of this podcast is to help people learn how to snap out of limiting beliefs and limiting labels, even. I'm adding the labels part because this day and age there's so much about labels, right? And people try to put labels on others, which is judgmental and it's violent communication I'm learning.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

Wow, yeah. Right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Are you a blobdy blob?

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Then they categorize the person, which is a way of finger pointing and judging or labeling. So I really want people to get to know me first. Me, authentic ginger, yeah, before saying, oh, well, she's a lawyer, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:37

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Because apparently attorneys aren't the most popular people in the entire world. Right. But I did that because that was part of my life purpose, and we'll talk about that in another episode. How I use the practice of law to help set people free, which is an interesting way of having a niche practice in family law setting people free. And and yeah, I'm a divorce lawyer. You could say, well, you're getting set free. But there's a deeper meaning, and we'll talk about that in the next two or three episodes so that you know I expand on that.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Yes, I'm very excited to get into that because there is something that has always fascinated me about you is because when we first met, it was I I honestly didn't I knew of your career, but I didn't see you like that at all because you do not come off as the like stereotypical lawyer that I think.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

No.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

So it's so all the more exciting to do something like this because to give people an opportunity to like to challenge this the belief that if you are a lawyer, you are this one way. Exactly. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I am a myriad of other things before I am a lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

And but I also am a lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Right. But the thing is when you're in a room and teaching in a presentation in front of attorneys that have been practicing for 30, 40, or 50 years, and you say, um, let's do the bend and snap. Like literally, I said this in a boardroom full of in a ballroom full of people in Boston. Okay. Incredible, incredible. And some people gave me a bad review. They're like, I didn't understand what she was talking about with that performance that she did. And then just this past weekend, I was at a concert, uh conference in the desert with 400 of the most um highly credentialed attorneys in California. It's called the ACFLS.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Association of Certified Family Law Specialists.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

And a posing counsel came up to me, somebody that I beat in St. Elizabeth's Poe, and said, uh Hi, right? And we started talking about our initial communication. Okay. And I, in a room full of people, it was during a breakout, so not everyone could see me, but I started jumping up and down in place while I'm talking to a lawyer, opposing counsel, and then another lawyer with whom I was having a meeting the following day about a client. And I'm standing there jumping up and down because I was completely myself. I was being free. Yeah. Because I had connected with them in an interpersonal way. And then I thought, oh, I better stop jumping up and down because then I'm not being serious. Right?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Because lawyers have to be taken seriously.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

But if I were with my theater friends and starting to jump up and down, everyone would be jumping up and down at the same time, right? So where do I fit in? I don't. I I can't you can't label me. I can't label you. No. And we can't label any of us. Think about the labels that you have allowed someone to put on you or that you've put on yourself and snap out of it.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

And so basically what we've just learned is that you are the real life El Woods. And this is No, don't label me.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Don't label me.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Sorry, you're right. No, no, no, sorry. Elle Woods is you. So

Snapping Out Of Labels And Beliefs

SPEAKER_03 9:35

when you say snap out of it, what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Well, the exact most concise answer is snap out or wake up or stop with limiting beliefs. But the phrase came from originally my name, Ginger, and I had a friend call me Ginger Snap, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

But then also there's this thing when I was breaking out or breaking free of some oppression that I was in, I started snapping and I was cr criticized for snapping, right? Literally snapping. I would do like this over my head, and it would break things open, like spiritually or whatever. I know that sounds really weird and I don't care. But there's something about it where you can snap your fingers and like wake up out of a trance or hypnosis, or if you're walking around in somebody else's narrative or someone else's fantasy or agenda, you can snap out of that. It's also a phrase, snap out of it, right? Like wake up and um and break free, right? So that's what it means. And we've added that it after snapping out of a limiting belief, and I'll talk more practically of how to do that because that's important.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Um also we need to replace the previously limiting belief with a truth about ourselves. So replacing the limiting belief, identifying a limiting belief. Oh, I'm so stupid. Once you identify that, then replace those beliefs with what's true about us. And there are some general principles that are true about all people that can replace a false belief, a limiting belief.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

What do you hope people feel after listening to this podcast?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

So what I hope that people feel while listening to this podcast is free. Free.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

Absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

The freedom to be themselves, to the freedom to identify limiting beliefs and replace them with truth about themselves, which gives them hope and encourag encourages them.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

So it's so empowering too. It is to be free. What kind of listener did you create this show for?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Everyone.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

There it is. There is something in every episode for everyone. There's takeaways for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

I hope so, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

This is not a this is not a show designed for lawyers.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

No, not at all. I don't know that lawyers are gonna watch it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

I mean, what again, like I said earlier, in meeting with you, it's it's you're fascinating. You have so much insight on so many different things. And I think, again, the lawyer at part of you is just a part of you.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Right. Well, see, I don't think of myself as fascinating at all. What I think is that maybe I have something to share that can benefit others, and so the whole point is to help, right? Yeah, otherwise, I mean, I'm not all that, right? But I do have life experience and and I have some education and knowledge, and I'm learning. Um, and so I feel like I can benefit other people can benefit from my experience, strength, and hope.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Which is program talk, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

That's perfect.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

I'm gonna sprinkle in some program talk. Those of you who know what I'm talking about, it's the 12-step program, which I've uh gone through as an al-Anon. Al-Anon is for people who have had a relationship with someone that has struggled with uh some sort of addiction. Okay. And the 12-steps of the program, which are not to be promoted, benefit almost anyone. So yeah, you don't have to have an addiction to something to benefit from the 12-step program. Of course, of course. And in season one, I talked about the committee in our heads, right? Which is which is program talk. So what's the committee in your head telling you about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Because it comes from the family of origin, it comes from society, social media, uh, it can come from our own self-criticism or doubt. Oh, so listen to the committee, identify that limiting belief system, that thought, and snap out of that, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:31

Yes. Why do you think so many people stay stuck even when they know they want more?

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Fear?

Why People Stay Stuck In Fear

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Fear. It's a it's a that's a big one. Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Even even if you identify the belief of you know, somebody has a false belief about themselves, I can never do that because I'm blah blah blah, right? Um what if that weren't true? What if instead of saying I could never do X, Y, Z because of A, B, C, what if you told yourself maybe I can do XYZ? And A, B, and C are in the past. So one thing I always say, and I don't know if this is a famous saying or if I made it up, but the front windshield is a whole lot bigger than that teeny little rear view mirror. And so if you spend time looking in the rearview mirror, then you're missing the forward path that you can take.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

It's a great visual.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Is it? Yeah, okay. Well, I has anyone have you heard of it before? I've not heard it before. I made it up. I made it up, I made it up.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

How do law, dance, and spirituality all connect for you personally?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

And psychology.

How Every Life Facet Connects

SPEAKER_03 14:44

And psychology.

unknown 14:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

And parenting.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah. How does it all connect for you personally?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Oh, well, it's that I can't be labeled on any of those because once I do something, I move to the next thing. Yes. Oh, so you are a dancer. You're in the opening ceremonies of the Olympics. Let's try out for the Atlanta Hawks, the NBA, see if we can do that, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Make the spot, the one spot for the person that looks like me.

unknown 15:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Um, how do they intersect? Well, I think for anybody, we can look at our achievements or our problems and see how that has created who we are today. So how do uh how does the law, psychology, spirituality, parenthood, and just living on the planet, well, they're all facets to the person, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

And so everyone has those facets. I just have different careers that then you can label, right? But but even a person who doesn't have um letters behind their name has experiences that create who they are, including bad experiences.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

And so we look at that, even though we only spend a little bit of time in the rearview mirror, we look at that and we go, how did that shape who I am today? So the most horrible things that I've experienced where I've been having the dark night of the soul in the middle of the night, awake, crying, right? Yeah, they made me who I am today, and I'm actually grateful for them.

unknown 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Because they gave me the fortitude to get through the next hard thing.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Okay, one more I have one more question.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

Okay, so as we've we've mentioned multiple times that there's so much more to you than than your career. But what parts of your of yourself are you most excited for people to get to know through this show?

Belief Builds Achievement And Persistence

SPEAKER_03 16:36

Is there anything in particular that you're like?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah, I mean, I feel like if I can do it, you can do it.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Oh, I love that. Right? Yeah, I mean, I'm just me. You're you are you and you?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

But the thing that enabled me to um achieve what I was trying to achieve is the belief that I could. So I come from a really great background where my family believed in me and knew that I could do it, right? Especially my mother. You can do it. I'm so proud of you. And so knowing that someone was in my corner cheerleading for me really helped. And then my daughter, my firstborn, um, is an exhorter. So she encourages and she gave me wind under my wings. Um, and my second daughter uh taught me so much. She was five years old teaching me about life just because she came to this planet already so well equipped. And then, of course, my son, who um wrote a little note to me that said, no matter what, keep persisting. I mean, he was a young elementary student when he said that. And I was in law school at the time.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Okay, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

So, but parts of myself am I excited for people to get to know? Well, see, I don't think highly of myself.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Just a humble woman.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

No, I mean, I know I've achieved some things, but and I can win in court as a litigator, which is different than just being a lawyer. A litigator is a trial lawyer, okay, it's even more. Um, but I I want people to know that if I can do it, you can do it.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

And I'm not that special. So maybe I have some background that's exciting and I've gotten some achievements under my belt, but the truth is it's all about what we believe in our minds. And if we believe that we can do it, we can do it. And I did this choreography once for Experian, which is a credit company.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

And I was living in Atlanta at the time, but they flew us out to Arizona, and I did the whole I believe I can fly bit.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

Oh, yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

And um, I don't know why I just thought of that, but that's yeah. I don't know. It's it's it starts in the mind.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Of course it starts in the mind. We were discussing before we hit record that uh you shared with me that you know your purpose on this earth is to help other people.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Well, to rear happy, healthy children, as many as possible. And children can be you can be an adult walking around in a child's mentality because you're still living with a limiting belief when you were five.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

100%. Yes. Right. Yes. So that's exciting that like with this outlet particularly, with a strong, clear idea of why you're on this earth, is why I what I'm most excited about with this, because when you're when you have such a clear idea of what your purpose is and where where you can speak on things that you know because of your life experience, people will it innately will hear that and their lives will be changed. So it is very exciting to have you on this platform and for people to get to know you and to hear the things you have to say because I mean, just listening back to this, if you're watching, you can you can you do not sit on a high horse. You are a very humble human who has a lot of experience, you're very intelligent, but you're also incredibly compassionate, and that is I think very important when you know encouraging people to snap out of their limiting beliefs.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

We all have areas that we think are true about ourselves that we can identify as false. And so snapping out of those false beliefs gives us freedom.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It's very powerful.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Yeah, well, I hope that people can take away from that because that's my goal.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

They will. They absolutely will. This is all very exciting.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

It is.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Thank you for answering those questions. I'm really excited for writing them. Well, yeah, I'm just excited for people to get to know you how I've gotten to know you, but also for me to learn from you is this is I'm very excited for this journey.

Being Seen Online And Letting Go

SPEAKER_00 20:24

So that's kind of scary still for me. Well, I know, I know we're starting to wrap up, but I can tell by the tone. But here's my thing like you're gonna get to know me.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

I have to be like me. You're you, and I'm okay being the authentic me in my circle of friends, but putting it out there. So I guess you know what?

SPEAKER_01 20:40

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 20:41

This exercise in your saying I want to get to know the real you, I'm thinking I'm gonna help people. But people are gonna get to know the real me. And then here's my limiting belief.

unknown 20:51

What if they don't like me?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

That they might not.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Hey, but it's it's what you do, I guess, with knowing that that could be a possibility, and that's not gonna stop you.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Well, it I didn't care if people didn't like me before, my colleagues or whatever. Don't you realize that that's not very popular? I don't care. I really don't care about how what people think about me, but then now I guess I still kind of do.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

And that's okay. I'm here to support you in this. Thank you. We are gonna do this together, and I I think what you have to say is important, and the life you've lived is something to talk about, and I believe it will resonate with a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

So And that's more important than being liked anyway. If I can help, then that who cares? Even if they don't like the messenger, maybe they hear something that benefits them and then it's all been worth it.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

So I don't have to be liked to get the message across.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

That's right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

So snap out of it.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Snap out of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

And even if we've said snap out of it too many times and it's getting on your nerves, why? Let's identify what is the limiting belief. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. I'm so looking forward to talking with you again next week.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

See ya.