The Desire To Change

Real change doesn’t begin with step one. It begins with the moment you decide you actually want out, out of the loop, out of the story, out of the limiting beliefs that keep replaying in your head. We start with the “and” before the count, the pre-step that makes every other tool work: desire. Ginger shares why being vulnerable matters, how she thinks like a teacher, and why we’re building this show to leave you with a real takeaway, not a blur of advice. 

From there, we get honest about what blocks change: grief and survival patterns. We walk through the five stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) and how bargaining can show up as rationalizing and “trying to make it make sense.” Alex asks the question many of us have: is that bargaining, or is it just the mind searching for meaning? Ginger offers a simple reframe that can break the spiral: swapping “Why me?” for “Why not me?” so you can move toward acceptance without dismissing your pain. 

We also talk radical self-acceptance, the kind that draws a hard line against inner negativity and outside voices that chip away at you. And because mindset work collapses without stability, we bring in grounding, dissociation (autopilot after trauma), and Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. If your body is depleted or your safety is shaky, you don’t need a pep talk, you need a foundation: food, water, rest, support, and real help when depression or danger is present. 

This podcast stays interactive on purpose. Send your questions, learn from other people’s questions, and practice the basics until they become muscle memory. If this helps, subscribe, rate, review, share with a friend, and send us what you want to snap out of next.

Check out Ginger's interview in UNDARK

Transcript

The Article And Being Vulnerable

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Hello. Hi. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

I'm well.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:17

I'm doing great. It's a beautiful day. I'm excited to be here. How's your week been?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

It's been great. Thank you. Yes. An article came out that I was interviewed for. It's Undark. And it's about the professional area in which I work as an attorney. Yeah. And I sort of came out about my personal life in this article. And so my professional colleagues were calling me and emailing and texting. Oh, ginger. Well, they call me Virginia. As a lawyer, I'm Virginia. Right. But yeah, I've been ginger all my life. So anyway, that was exciting. It was very exposed.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Yeah, vulnerable. Of course.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

But you know, we last week we talked about how I will be vulnerable and authentic, which is what we want for this podcast to sort of, you know, lead the way for those of you who are willing to follow the step process of snapping out.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Well, I first want to say if you are interested in reading this article, it is linked below. So check it out. It's a really good read.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Thank you. Yeah. Oh, and read the last three paragraphs, especially. Absolutely. I mean, if you don't do anything else, look at my picture.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

There's some excellent things.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

That Alex took. And then right, and then read the last three paragraphs. It's really sweet. It is. I mean, I was honored that they concluded with a quote that I had given.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

It's incredible. They did a great job. It was really well written.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

And we quoted it last week in our first episode. So read the article.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Triple threat.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

We are excited about the use of the term triple threat. Do you know what a triple threat is?

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I think I I mean I think I do, but let's give us the definition. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

In theater, what is a triple threat?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

A triple threat is someone that can dance, act, and sing.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Aren't you a triple threat?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

I that's very generous.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

You can't. You are.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

I d I excuse me, I've seen you act. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I've seen you dance.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

I have heard you sing. Yeah, okay. So yes, I guess I could be labeled as that.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

A triple threat.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

A triple threat.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Okay. Well, so I am a triple threat as follows. Yeah. I'm a dancer, psychologist, and lawyer. So we thought it'd be a fun play on words. And it is. I constantly use terminology from theater in my practice of law. Someone said to me uh the other day, why are you so theatrical? Because I was jumping up and down. We talked about it last week in front of a room full of 400 certified family law specialists. I didn't care. Incredible. But last night I went to another event. It was a Beverly Hills Bar Association. Okay. Meet the family law judges. Oh. All the players were there. Celebrity attorneys, all of it, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

I did not know they hold socials like that.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

That's well, they did. And this is my first time going to a Beverly Hills Bar Association fancy dinner, right? And so there was a judge there who's formerly a cheerleader, like I.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Really?

SPEAKER_01 2:53

And so we practically jumped up and down together. But he's a really great teacher. So I want to give you the takeaway from speaking with this particular judge. Uh one of the things that he's known for is his series. I won't say what it is exactly, but a series where the listener or the audience walks away remembering what he taught. You know how when you go to a seminar and they drone on and on and on and PowerPoint after PowerPoint, and you leave and you're like, that was a great seminar, but I have no idea

Triple Threat And Memorable Teaching

SPEAKER_01 3:20

what they said, right? I mean, it happens to me all the time.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

So my goal, especially with this podcast, is for every episode for the listener you to take away the step. Though, and step is another term of art and dance, right? Step by step. So that we're not blowing through the steps on how to snap out of limiting beliefs, but we are spending one episode at a time with each step so that the person following and listening, the audience members, actually learn and take away from it. So that's what made this particular judge very effective when he teaches his courses.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

But I I drew the parallel for him and I said, look, part of the reason why you were so effective is because you're formerly a cheerleader, an exhorter. You want the audience to learn. Yeah. Right. So when a teacher, and I have taught, I have experience teaching, when a teacher encourages the audience, and I have experience cheerleading, they really want the listener to learn and walk away. So my goal in this podcast, as we discussed last week, is for you to experience freedom and to give specific steps and application for obtaining the freedom. So I'm gonna pivot with you now.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Oh, okay, let's pivot.

The Pre-Step Desire To Change

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Right. So originally, as I was putting the curriculum together, I had step one. However, prior to step one, a person needs to want to snap out of limiting beliefs. Oh, that is. And that's not even part of my step one that I I shared with you earlier.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

So it's like a pre-step. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

So you can take the steps until you're counting in dance, sometimes there's a movement. Usually you count to eight, right? Right. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. And you know from watching shows, you hear five, six, seven, eight, and you start, right? Well, in certain choreography, depending on what decade you're in, yeah, there could be a step or a movement on and one. Oh, and one, and two, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah. So this is the and this is the and before the count.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Correct. Right. And also from the top is always fun to say, right? From the top, yeah. And from the top, right? Okay. So going on with the and.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Yes, we're on the end.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

There has to be a desire. So I've thought a lot about using experience from my own experience, strength and hope, to come up with the and, to come up with the what's the first thing before the first step, and that is a desire. So I'm gonna pull a page from the 12-step program. And so I know that the 12-step program does not publish and they do not, they're not um vocal about the steps, but I mean you can Google the steps and you figure out what they are, right? So the first step is admitted we were powerless over blank.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Okay?

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

So, and and as a psychologist, I have a bachelor's in psychology, a master's in psychology, I have training in psychology. So I will bring in psychological terms during this podcast. I'm not professing to be an expert, I'm not offering psychological advice, legal advice, or any of that, but just bringing my experience to the table brings a uh a new element, I think, or a different element. So the desire, the need to change. And it is said that sometimes people won't change unless they're suffering pain or they want to experience love.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

That's what I have heard in some of my research and some of my experience.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

All right. So generally in the 12-step program, a person says, I admit that I'm powerless over whatever it is. Okay. And then the second part of that is my life has become unmanageable.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

So that would be the pain that motivates someone to change. And so, in order to really have effective change, a person has to want it. And the reason I came up with this and before the one is a fabulous friend of mine who I've known for 20 years uh contacted me the other day. And this person needs to snap out of a relationship very badly. It's an abusive relationship. Yeah. However, and I can certainly give her the steps and encourage her through it, but she's got to want to change. And I said to her, Do you want to change? And she wasn't hurting because of his behavior. She was wanting to stay with him. And so there's no way that she can affect change unless she really wants it.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

And so this is a repeat cycle for her. She was in this relationship years ago, it ended. She let him back in.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

All right. So the the question as to whether she's going to be successful this time is whether or not she truly wants to change because people cycle in repetitive behaviors that uh indicate they're in some sort of jail. Correct. Right? Prison if they're mine. Okay. So that's my pivot. And I did take some notes because I want to share also that this is not just a teaching curriculum.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

This podcast is an interactive podcast. Yeah. So what we're going to be doing is looking at your comments and addressing people's comments or questions. Well, wait a minute, what about this? What about this scenario? Whatever, as we go, because as a teacher, I'm also an encourager or an exhorter. And I want the listener, the viewer to really have a takeaway, something valuable from this podcast, which makes it a little bit different than others, where um the person presenting goes through a list of five to seven things. Do this, this, this, this, and this. Well, that's great. And the world moves really fast. But let me just take it back to a dance analogy. When you're learning the waltz, you learn step by step, and you have to practice very slowly at the beginning. Sometimes it's frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

In order to get the step down before you can actually speed up.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

And so in this case, I we're dragging out one episode at a time will be this particular step and talking about it and helping the viewer have an ability to apply. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

And if I can tie it into Dance Again, we will be marking until the end where we will go full out.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

I also want to say, so what you said resonates with me because, as you know, I had shared with you that uh over a year ago, almost two years ago now, I put myself through a really intense self-development program.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Where at the very beginning there was 12 of us that were in this program. And from the ver from the very first day, the the the creator of this program, the leader of the of this whole thing, said, Part of this is you can only stay in the program if you keep up and participate because you ha that will show that you actually want this. Because you can't have change, like you said, without first really wanting it. That's right. And by the end of the program, there was only four of us left.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Ooh, that's like law school. Look to your left. Look to your right, they won't be here. That's just true, too. So the desire.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

It's the desire, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Okay, and I always tell my clients when they call me, if you want me to represent you, I'm gonna be fighting like a drowning person gasping for air. For you to have a relationship with your children to be able to maintain them, blah, blah, blah, blah. Similarly, you have to fight for your life like a drowning person gasping for air if you really want to change.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

And did you would you say that you held on to that particular program as though your life depended on it?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yeah, with everything I had. It was the most challenging thing I've ever been through. And as you know, people listening don't, but as you know, um, on the other end of that, I am a completely changed person and my life is better for it.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

But it's very scary. It can be very scary. Let's just acknowledge that now. And so we're gonna be there every step of the way for you because we do want you to be able to snap out of limiting beliefs, to feel the joy and the peace that's on the other side. I'm in a horrible storm right now, Alex.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

I'm in another dark night of the soul, horrible storm, and I'm using the tools and the techniques that we'll be sharing in this podcast to get me through it. And I do feel joy and peace now. So I'm actually waltzing now, but when I developed the steps and went through it myself, it was very long, drawn out, and painful. And so now I know kind of what's coming down the pike and I know how to deal with it, and and I can actually feel joy and pain concurrently while it's happening. So I also want to say that this isn't a linear process.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Of course. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

And this isn't the only way.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

For sure. Yes. Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

These this is a way. Okay. The first thing I want to say also with regard to the and we're still on the and, not even step one yet.

Grief Stages And The Why Not Me

SPEAKER_01 11:54

While I was contemplating how to share this part, I want to say that if a person is in the five stages of grief because of the situation in which they find themselves, that those stages really need to be um walked through in order to effectively get to the other side as well. So that's part of the and it's that's part of the and and it's part of how to how to get to the desire to change, right? So the pain, people change with pain, people change with love, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:22

So for those that don't know, what are the five stages of grief?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Well, so the first stage of grief is denial. Oh, this isn't happening to me. I can't believe it. The the I can't believe it is the biggest part. And uh wrapping a person's mind around the fact that this did indeed happen, bad things happen to good people. That's part of being a human being on the planet, uh, would be the first stage. Now, I didn't come up with these stages of grief. I don't know who to credit them with, but it's just from my psychological learning and training. Yes. Okay. The second stage is anger. So an anger as an emotion is very powerful because there is a sense of control or righteous anger that a person can feel, which gives them power and a um a feeling of being, I guess, in control. So generally, underneath anger is a deep sadness, or you can find sadness under anger. And that's the one that people don't want to access because that could, you know, lead to depression and other types of less feeling in control behaviors or emotions. Less feeling in control emotions. Okay. Um, after the denial and anger phases comes bargaining.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Where the person experiencing grief, because grief is a really difficult emotion to experience.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Truly.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

So bargaining, and you've that's where people bargain with their higher power or bargain with the person with whom they have broken ties or bargain with themselves. So the stages of grief really need to be walked through. Um, but it doesn't have to happen prior to step one, right? It doesn't have to, but I just want to point out that unless and until a person comes to terms with the fact that this did happen, so you're no longer in denial, you can be mad about it, which is completely a valid response to a horrible situation, then a person can bargain, bargain, bargain, bargain, but that's not going to necessarily take you to the end of the road. So after bargaining is depression and the last stage is acceptance. So if if you feel as though you are in a dark hole and depressed, this is uh an encouragement for you to get mental health help. Okay. If you are unable to get out of bed or uh take a shower or eat or care for oneself, then that means that's a call for help. So I encourage anyone that's going through grief to have support, either through one person as a support system that helps the grieving party get through it, or a therapist, or uh 911, however it takes to protect oneself.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Uh and you need to know if you're going into a depression, um, how to get through it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because not all sadness leads to depression, but that's a very serious issue to take seriously. So we encourage you, I encourage you to get help and have support with regard to depression.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

I have a question about bargaining, real quick. So is bargaining does that also mean it's also rationalizing, like when you're trying to make sense of a situation, does that fall into bargaining?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

It can.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Um, so rationalizing would be will this happen because is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Yeah. So I think specifically, like I think the five stages of grief, probably the easiest way for someone to relate to this is when they've lost someone. Okay, death. Death. Okay, that's a good one. Right. If someone that you are very close to has passed away, as someone who's experienced this myself, I I feel like when I got to the bargaining stage of grief, it was it was more like trying to justify what's happened. Yes. Although it's like sense of it in my head. Is that what falls under bargaining? It can, yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

That's like so this isn't like a a clear-cut stage. It can have different facets like everything. Yeah. Um, so one way a person can try to rationalize the death or the bad experience is why me?

unknown 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Oh, yeah. That's a big one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

So I learned and I practice this that when I'm tempted to say why me, then I change that expression to why not me.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Oh, it really changes your thought pattern when you do that.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Right. It reframes everything. And so we have a whole episode on framing, using the mind to frame a problem, frame a conversation to influence whatever. So we'll go into that. But the reframe is a great way of getting out of the um rationalization or bargaining phase. Why not me? What made me so special that I shouldn't have to go through A, B, and C and look at all the other people in the world who've experienced D E and F that's much worse. So let's put it into perspective. Yes. And then the last phase is acceptance. Yeah. And that's really a place where the change can occur. Because once a person accepts that their loved one has passed, or that the relationship is over, or that I admit that I'm powerless over such and such, I accept it. Then they're ready for help.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Then step one can come into play.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

That's right. So this is the ant. And so, Alex, again, this is not the only way. This is a way. But what I am hoping that the listener and the viewer is able to take away is tools like tools in a toolbox. Okay, yeah. So, in a certain with a certain problem, you use a hammer or you use a scalpel.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Or you know what? Let's think of a dance analogy.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Pivot, pirouette. Uh pot of beret away. Oh, yeah, I like that. Pot of away. That's great. Oh my gosh. If you're in a toxic relationship, pot de beret away. Pot of beret away. You can't pivot or you can't pirouette. You're doing a pirouette symbol. Do it again.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Oh, I did this.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

That's a pirouette. Okay, a pot of beret. I'll show you. We'll do a video of me dancing in a business suit, right? Okay, so but I want to go back to once a person has accepted and is willing to admit that they need to change, right? Whatever is the catalyst, make up your mind and do it.

Radical Self-Love And A Witness

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Okay. How do you do that? How do you make up your mind? You decide. Part of deciding to make a change, and this still isn't step one, this is still the preamble.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Is to radically accept yourself.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

That is that is a very challenging thing for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Radically love yourself so much that you don't allow anyone to speak ill of you to you, you don't let your brain, and we're gonna get into identifying false beliefs. That's step one, by the way. Um, so accepting oneself and loving oneself that there is zero tolerance for any negativity or unforgiveness. Internal or external. Yes. Yeah, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

It's huge. And I feel like even though I feel like me personally, I'm at a really good spot with language towards myself, but I'm still human. Like I still have moments where I'm like, What are you thinking, Alex? Like, come on.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

So there's the language that we tell ourselves when we're by ourselves, and then there's the language that we tell ourselves when there's a significant other, because then we have our committee going in our head. So we're gonna start with just ourselves. Okay, but then we expand that and and and widen the lens to well, what is he thinking about what I'm doing? And I have a story to share about that.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I'm glad that we're taking it step by step because it's there's a lot to cover.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

And I okay, so we talked about the importance of surrounding oneself with support. So, Alex, before anyone does anything, they need to have at least one person to help them through it. One person.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

I don't want anyone doing this alone.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah, yeah. An accountability is all it takes.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yes, if you want to put a label on it. Because accountability partner is stressful. Like, I don't want an accountability partner. Oh my gosh, they're gonna be checklisting if I did it right. No. Support. Okay, here's what they need to be a witness. Oh, okay. And that's a legal term. But witness is okay. So Chase Hughes, shout out to Mr. Hughes, does a fantastic podcast, and some of his material I am going to give credit to him, but we will be talking about throughout this. Uh, talks about having a witness to help a person through their emotions. Now, this is a podcast later down the line about uh identifying emotions and feeling them. But when that time comes, a person needs to witness. Be with you. Just be with you, not accountable and you didn't do this right or whatever, but just sit there. So if you wail or you need someone to pet your head, you know, pat your head or put their arms around you, you've got someone. No judgment, no comments, no communication, someone with you, right? And Mr. Hughes calls it a witness.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Um could be an understudy, someone that's oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Right, right. I love that. Okay. Then I have an analogy about mountain climbing.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Okay, I love an analogy. Hit me.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Okay. So let's say you want to climb, have you seen those movies where someone's climbing a mountain and they get to the top and they're like arms are in the air and like da-da, they made it, and they feel so free, yeah, and they can see with a different perspective.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Well, that's what we're doing.

unknown 21:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

So when a person snaps out of limiting beliefs and experiences freedom, that feeling of being on a mountaintop, yeah, looking at one's kingdom that was conquered, yeah, yeah, is so rewarding. Yeah. And there's joy and there's peace and there's uh authenticity because you did it. Yeah, right? Yeah. Okay, so this journey is going to be like climbing a mountain. Okay. Do you know what a sherpa is?

SPEAKER_00 21:32

A sherpa? Yes. I it's an article of clothing, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Okay, so Google says Sherpas are a Tibeto Nepalese ethnic group known for their high altitude expertise.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I apologize for thinking that it was an article of clothing. Well, it might be.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

It might it sounds like a shoe or something.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

I was like a shaw, I'm getting it confused, but okay, this makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Okay, but no, I can see how it would seem like an article of clothing. Known for their high altitude expertise, serving as an assistant. Essential guide and porter for mountaineering, Himalayan mountaineering.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Originating from Tibet, they settled in Nepal, holding a distinct culture, Tibetan Buddhist faith, and a lifestyle geared toward farming, trade, and tourism. Their role is crucial for safety navigating, safely navigating high-risk mountaineering routes. Okay. Wow, okay. Okay, so also in my past, I have uh I memorized a lot of scripture, Alex. Yeah. And one of my favorite verses is he makes my feet his hind's feet to walk in high places.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Now a hind is like a deer or something walking in a craggly mountain high place. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Which they can do very effortlessly. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

And that's risky.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

It's dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Not everyone does it.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Yeah. Not everyone do it.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Right. So that's one of my self-talks, especially when I'm going to court, because in court it's super tricky. You never know what the other side's going to throw at you. Your honor, blah, blah, blah. And you have to pivot. You have to remember that your feet are like Heinz feet walking in high places. Sorry about that. Your feet are like Hindsfeet walking in high places. And you can achieve the goal of not slipping and falling. Okay. So if you're going to mountain climb and get to a place of liberty and freedom, don't you want to have someone who's done it before and guiding you along the way so you don't hit an avalanche or like your rope falls? 100%. Okay. So we're going to kind of be Sherpas for you.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Which would give me, in that situation, such peace of mind.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

So that is what you're offering here.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Some peace of mind along the way.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yes. And not we'll check the weather. We'll map the thing. We'll have a base camp. You'll have your gear. You'll wear your Sherpa.

unknown 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Make sure you wear your Sherpa. Okay. In addition, Alex, on the ant, and one, and two, and three, and four, sometimes there's an extra pause. So there might be and one, right? Yeah. So this pause indicates. Well, first of all, let's review. What is the ant?

SPEAKER_00 24:02

The and is the the four. It's the prep. It's the previous one. Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

It's the decision that you're going. You're gonna you you are ready to change. You've either suffered pain, you want to change for love, there's change coming. Change is coming.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

There's acceptance and you're ready for change.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

That's exactly right. Okay.

Stability After Trauma And Dissociation

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Now a person needs to have stability. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

So it there's a tendency for all of us after experiencing some sort of a life transition or trauma to feel out of body. There's an out-of-body sense of dissociation, and that's a um psychological term. It means a person's not in their body anymore. They use a dissociative kind of state in order to not experience the pain, not feel the pain. We're going to go into all about how to get back in your body and feel the emotions and walk you through it. We're going to walk you through everything.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

It's like going on autopilot.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

It's autopilot, it's the unconscious. You're doing things that you have no idea what you've done. You're driving somewhere and you can't remember how you got there, right? Okay. So dissociation is a psychological term that literally means that the a person dissociates or um checks out, right? They're uh in a dissociative state. So a great example would be if a person's experiencing extreme physical trauma and has to like leave their body mentally in order to endure the trauma. And that's a survival skill. It's a good skill to have. However, once it no longer serves us, and the dissociation means that we're unable to connect to someone, maybe there's a new love interest, but you're just not able to connect because you've been dissociating for so long. It's time to get stability and to get into one's body and to be able to be more grounded and so no longer in a dissociative state.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

It doesn't mean everyone's dissociating, but it is a very human characteristic to dissociate. And I'll talk more about how people dissociate their emotions and their thoughts in order to get through daily life, and it happens with almost everyone. So I can't say anyone's exempt from that.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

I wouldn't say full-blown dissociation, like psychologically, yeah, a full-blown dissociative state, but everyone uses these skills and techniques to survive. Okay, Alex.

Maslow Needs Before Real Change

SPEAKER_01 26:10

So with regard to stability, from my graduate program, I learned about a psychologist named Maslow. Abraham Maslow created something called Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And the best way to share this is the use of a pyramid, which he uses. And so the very bottom of the pyramid, which is the foundation, is that a person's physiological needs need to be met. A person needs to be fed, they need to have sufficient water, they need rest, their body needs to be taken care of. And so that's part of the and before step one.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Okay. Right? It's the foundation.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Exactly. And physiological needs are so basic that many of us as adults don't consider taking care of ourselves physiologically.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

As we go about our day. How much water have you had to drink today?

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah, I don't I couldn't even tell you. I don't even think about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Right. We all know what we're supposed to do. Everyone knows what we're supposed to do: water, healthy food, exercise, sufficient. Right. Good air, sleeping well enough, eliminating as much stress as possible. But how many of us do it?

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

So if we're really gonna affect change with our bodies, if we really want to snap out of the limiting beliefs, the first thing we start to do is take care of ourselves. And this circles back to radical love of ourselves. If I really love myself, I'm gonna eat my lunch. I'm going to not skip lunch again because I'm working crazily through the day.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

And so if I'm putting myself first and really caring for my physiological needs, then that is part of the ant before we actually move into the first step of snapping out of limiting beliefs.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

And a person might think, oh, well, that doesn't matter. I it it's less important. I just want to move forward, barrel forward through it. But guess what? If you don't have the found solid foundation when you build a house, do you have to have a good solid foundation before you build your house?

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Right, exactly. So, okay, the next level is safety needs. In fact, let me go through the levels, okay? Perfect, yeah. All right. So we have the the very foundational level is physiological needs, and that is biological needs, drinking water, sleeping, eating, etc. Safety needs. So again, if a person is in a depressive state, then they need help or in an abusive relationship where their safety, physical safety, emotional safety is at risk. The safety needs need to be handled before a person can actually move forward toward freedom with regard to what we're talking about on this podcast. The next level is love and belongingness, which is an essential need for everyone. And so Maslow included that in his hierarchy. The next level up, and generally people get to the third level.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

People generally have their physiological needs met, they have their safety needs met, and they have love and belongingness met. That is where the average number of people reside because people are walking around looking for relationships, trying to maintain their relationships.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Now let's move up the hierarchy to the last two, which is self-esteem and self-actualization. It's very rare to get to self-actualization. A person has to really work to be able to achieve that level where one is self-actualized. But let's go to self-esteem. So many of us operate on the planet with a self-esteem that has been damaged in some way. Totally. Okay? Oh, yeah. I mean, that's just par for the course being a human being again. So that's a different outside the scope of this podcast, but self-esteem issues can always be worked on. Yeah. Finally, self-actualization is the tip of the hierarchy, it's the tip of the pyramid. And that just means a person is really at peace with himself, at peace with the world, feeling love toward the planet. And a lot of religions try to achieve self-actualization through their specific religious process.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Many um other types of practitioners try to achieve self-actualization through their process.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

We're not doing Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but I bring it up because before you can snap out of limiting beliefs and live in freedom, you need to have your physiological needs met. Okay. You need to be safe. And then we'll move into love and belongingness as part of this podcast. I love that. So also, this might be this style of teaching might be um challenging for the viewer.

No Agenda Interactive Listener Questions

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Why? Because this podcast is for adults. I mean, obviously, young people and and people who are still young adults are more than welcome to watch it, and we hope that you do because we want you to live a life of freedom without chains and years and years and decades of having to break out of those limiting beliefs. But generally, adults want an agenda before they will participate. You can't generally get an adult's attention at the beginning of a presentation unless you set the agenda from the top.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

From the top. Right, let's take it from the top. Yeah, take it from the top.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

So I'm gonna tell you right now, you don't get an agenda.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Okay. So when I taught high school psychology, when I taught uh the Bay Area Psychological Association as an attorney, but I was teaching psychologists in the Bay Area.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

And um through all of my teaching, I generally set an agenda with the audience.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

In this case, it is so important to me and to us to make sure that the viewer has a takes something from this podcast, a value that we're gonna walk through it. And because we're not setting an agenda, since we don't know exactly what questions are gonna come in, we can't tell you from point A to point Z how this is gonna go down. And I do this with my clients as an attorney. My clients will ask me a question on an area in which I have achieved quite a bit of expertise and and wins, many wins, mostly wins.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Pretty much all wins.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Heck yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Uh in the particular area. Okay. Well, what about this? What if this happens? And my answer is I don't know. Well, how can you not know? Aren't you an expert in this particular area? And yada yada. And my answer is, well, it's even though um this case is not a game, this process is very much like a chess game. And so while a person knows generally the patterns, how to win a chess game, because you can become a chess master if you know the tens of thousands of patterns that a person can use in order to prevail. Um while I know the patterns in these particular specific types of cases, I'm not exactly sure what my opposing party is going to do when they move their night to a specific place on the board.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

So then I have to see what they do in order to win the game.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Okay. So similarly, this podcast is not going to be us just dumping a bunch of information to the viewer.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

It's going to be an interactive podcast where each episode has uh audience participation and questions. And even after we um post the podcast, if further questions come in, we will be actively maintaining, which is something I haven't done in the past. Okay. Generally, when I uh I've been so busy as an attorney, but I am making a commitment to the viewer that for at least a season, a reasonable season, I will be responding to questions that come in um through the social media platform and address them. That's so that's my commitment to the viewer. If the viewer will stick through this with us and commit, because I really do care whether the audience snaps out of it and lives in freedom.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

I this is great.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

And also Sherpa's, don't just say go climb that mountain.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Good luck.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Right. Yeah, have fun, watch out for the avalanche. They go. Yeah. So I'm gonna be going on this process with you and with you. And I encourage you, maybe we'll do an episode where we just do a question and answer. Sometimes we do that with uh attorneys and judges. We'll have a judges panel, and the uh listeners, the audience can send questions in, and then the judges answer the question. So um, when I taught the Bay Area Psychological Association, my opposing attorney was watching. He knew I was right, okay? He knew I was right with regard to the case. He knew that his client was a mess, and mine was the person who should have had more justice in the matter. So here's what he did. What do you do? Oh my gosh. He had two devices that he used his phone and his computer to log in. And at the end of the teaching, I was going to answer questions, right? Okay, so he it was so obvious. I mean, like, come on, I'm a psychologist, I can tell. Yeah. He turned off one of the devices and made it an anonymous post, and then he asked me questions anonymously as if I didn't know it was him. Right? So what I did is I told him the answer to help him with his client, which was really me prevailing, you know, I was able to achieve though. No way. No way, no. I did not call him out, but it was a way ethically where he could ask me, what do I do about this counsel? Yeah, yeah. He certainly could not violate his uh duty of zealous advocacy to his client by calling me, asking me how opposing counsel how to solve a problem. Right. But it was great. I mean, it was so obvious that he had like turned off his his like anonymous. And then so anonymous posts a question and I said, and I answered it. Okay, okay. Specifically because it was about our case, exactly what he needed to do.

unknown 35:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

I know it was so sneaky and great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But so we'll we'll be uh taking your questions. Yes, please. Yes, but don't be anonymous. We won't say your name. Um, I do respect privacy, and as an attorney, I'm you know, crazy about confidentiality. And obviously, I'm not your lawyer. This isn't legal advice, this isn't psychological advice, but I do respect privacy. So if you're making if you're sending questions in through social media, whatever name you want to use is totally fine. But if you do ask a question, I won't be saying that so so-and-so is asked this question. I'll address the question. And I do also encourage you to listen to other people's questions. Here's why. Oh, yeah. When you're dancing, you go to basic ballet classes, even if you're the prima ballerina. Oh, you need to know foundational things in order to progress. And part of dancing and training and rehearsing is doing the basics over and over so you get that muscle memory.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Even if you're in a class with beginners, uh an an expert dancer can be in a class with beginners. The class is the same for everyone. The person at the bar, oh, darling, bar.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

There it is again.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

I didn't even plan that.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

The bar, the ballet bar, right? And the bar and the bar with the law.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

So at the bar, if you hear the instructor tell Johnny to put his shoulders down, then the person, correct, long neck, shoulders down, the person listening, even if they're have been dancing for 20 years, should also long neck, shoulders down, correct. So that's why I encourage you when you hear a question that wasn't your question, listen anyway, please. Because muscle memory, if someone asks something, oh, I already did that, I know how to I don't think that way about myself anymore. But you know what? We live on a planet where we get to practice certain principles in our everyday life. And sometimes we do them over and over, even if we think we've learned them. So it's uh good practice to listen to the basics and um what other people have to say can benefit us.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Absolutely. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

So that's the and that's the and one and two. Let's snap out.

How To Send Questions And Wrap

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Thank you so much for watching and listening. We're so excited to have you with us.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Please send us your questions. There's an email address attached to this podcast if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or or any of them. You'll be able to click on our profile and you can send in your questions that way. Uh, we'd love to hear from you. We would love if you could rate, review, and share.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Yes, and go to gingergriffin.com where you can find all of the content. And I do encourage the step-by-step.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

But feel free. I mean, you're free. You are free to enjoy the content however you want. And it's designed to be able to go one step at a time. But if you're already a waltzer, go.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Then jump right to one. Right. Well, baby. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

That's a wrap.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Thank you so much, Ginger. That was great.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Thank you, Al.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

We'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Okay.