Alcohol, Addiction, and How to Assess Your Relationship With It

In this episode, Kiana and Ben dive deep into the topic of alcohol. How do we as citizens of the Kingdom of God, handle alcohol in a culture where it has become such an idol. Guided by the Holy Spirit, they discuss alcohol's place in our lives as believers, addiction, and more. 

Ben is a licensed marriage and family therapist working in the field since 2018 with experience working in dual diagnosis treatment. Ben now works with individuals in breaking patterns, navigating challenging life events, resolving trauma, managing anxiety, developing self-confidence and internal resources. Ben is also passionate about helping couples develop fondness and admiration, communication and conflict resolution skills, and deep meaningful partnership. 

LINKS:

The AA Big Book

Celebrate Recovery

Alpha 

Soul Care

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hi, I'm Kiana Maxson and welcome to the Fragrance Podcast. I am so excited to be here today. Fragrance is a ministry that seeks to create safe spaces for women to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Whether it's a retreat, a Bible study, inner healing and deliverance prayer, a worship night, or a fun monthly event morning routine, which is our workout and worship event, fragrance longs to see women know the love of the Father, step into deeper intimacy with Jesus, and be filled with his Holy Spirit. And now we have the Fragrance podcast. And season one is How to Live as Exiles in an Empire. How do we, as citizens of the Kingdom of God, live in an empire that is in direct opposition to the Kingdom of God? We're going to be tackling topics like social media, marriage, suffering. And today I am so excited to have my favorite person on the planet on the podcast today. And we are going to be talking about alcohol and what an idol it is in our culture. And how do we as citizens of the kingdom of God handle this thing that has become such an idol in our culture? So, buckle up, let's go. Well, I said it. My favorite person on the planet, my husband, Ben. Sorry, I just unrolled your pants.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Ben, I am so, so happy to have you on today.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

You are obviously my husband. I am truly obsessed with you. And it just means so much that you would come and support me and take time out of your day to talk about this topic and to be vulnerable and just to have a darn good time.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Absolutely. I'm excited. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah. So for the listeners, we have been married for it'll be nine years, August 5th. And we've been together for 13. And basically, we met at a church called Rock Harbor. I was leading worship. He was serving on all sorts of serve teams. And I saw you across the lobby, and I just knew. I literally said, I saw him and I said, I'm gonna date that guy because you are the most handsome guy I'd ever seen in my entire life. And so I just knew it. So what did I do? I showed up everywhere I knew you would be.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Stalked you, and what happened? I won you over.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

You did. I was like, how is this girl every single place that I go?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Very intentional. Like, oh hi man! How are you? It's so crazy I didn't know you'd be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

And I was so oblivious at the time, too.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Well, I'm so excited to have you on today. And so this is a topic alcohol. It's something that I am passionate about talking about because it's something that is not necessarily a sin to have a glass of wine, right? Like alcohol is not inherently evil, but I think what our culture has done is it's either bad, it's a sin, legalism, we don't even touch it, it's the devil, or well, drink and be merry. Jesus drank wine, and let's just drunkenness is fine, alcohol's fine, there's no conviction whatsoever. But scripture has a lot to say about our heart posture towards it.

SPEAKER_07 3:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

And so that's really what I want to talk about today. But first, would you share a little bit about yourself for the listeners? So, what do you do? Um, how long have you been following Jesus? And um, anything else you feel on your heart?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I have the honor and privilege of working with individuals and couples on, you know, various different issues, you know, to pursue wholeness.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

I love it. I love it. And how long have you been following Jesus? Can you give a little bit of your story?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah, so I grew up in a Christian household, and I never really understood the relational aspect of you know following Christ. You know, I understood a lot of the legalism. I grew up in kind of very conservative, legalistic environments, and I never really understood like what the Holy Spirit was. You could have this personal relationship with Christ. Like I understood, you know, it from almost like a sin perspective. It's like if you do the right things, then you know you can go be with Jesus and you know, you your sins will be forgiven essentially. But I really didn't understand that you could have a really deep, intimate friendship, you know, and a fatherly relationship with God. You know, so I had experienced a lot of different suffering and challenges, you know, of my own, which would eventually lead me over time to become a therapist. You know, but with that, I really didn't have the coping skills or tools or even knowledge of how to take these things to God. Like, how do I reconcile this suffering with the gospel that I know? You know, so that led me to coping in all of the wrong ways. You know, whether that was like self-harm, whether that was alcohol, whether it was like struggling with anorexia, there were all sorts of different things that that I had gone through. And then, you know, there was a period of time where I was finding my identity in relationships and you know, people pleasing and all different sorts of things. And then my brother actually, you know, went through the alpha program at Rock Harbor, and then his life just got radically turned upside down. And then from that, you know, he started pursuing me as a brother for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Because you guys had basically no relationship.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Essentially no relationship. Yes. I think he was just selfish at that time and he didn't understand the impact that he was having.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

We love Richard, by the way. But this is pre-Jesus Richard. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

So he always had this like ability to just like laser target like insecurities. So he was just so good at making me like feel less than, which was interesting because then when he his life got flipped around and he came back to Christ, he was one of the most powerful voices in bringing healing and reconciliation and showing me who I really was as a person. Wow. And through that relationship, I actually got to experience Jesus embodied by a person.

SPEAKER_06 5:56

So good.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

You know, which eventually over time led me to come back to faith and then find, you know, the relational aspect of faith.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Wow. Wow. I love that so much. And then the funny thing is, you guys became the face of Alpha for a while. It was like Alpha posters, like Richard became like the face of Alpha. If you don't know what Alpha is, it is amazing. Look it up. Um, it's basically like this amazing space and ministry where people can just come with their questions and it's open discussion, led by the Holy Spirit, and people really find their way back to the Lord and or to the Lord for the first time. And um, Richard, their story was so powerful that Richard ended up on billboards in London for Alpha, their story, they were both in like the Alpha promo video. So they were known as like the Alpha Brothers at Rock Hart.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

You just get like text messages like, hey, is this you?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, so good. And that's when, so right after you came to faith, came back to faith is when enter Kiana. So you literally were not looking to date. You were just like, I just want what God wants for my life. I just want to focus on him, intimacy with him, everything you just said. And so I just love that so much. And so, fast forward now, we're married, been married for almost nine years, and alcohol has been a constant topic of conversation in our dating relationship, in our marriage, for many, many different reasons. Um, we both don't drink for different reasons. So, though we know that alcohol isn't this like inherently evil thing, it can cause so much damage when held in the wrong spot in your life or when when in your life when it shouldn't be. And for me, I chose not to drink. So, alcohol, I didn't drink till I was 21. And um, even then, it was kind of like I'd have a drink at dinner, or I would, it was never really a huge struggle for me. But what I found was when I did have a drink, I didn't feel filled with the Holy Spirit. I didn't feel like I could be as present as I was without it. And um, I just began to see what an idol it was in our culture, and I was just kind of like, you know what? This thing, it's not helping me become more like Jesus. It's not necessarily causing a ton of damage in my life, but it sure isn't helping. And it's also such an idol in our culture, and if we are called to live different, then why would I just participate in something that the rest of the world is doing? Like Jesus says, like, you are salt and light. And if salt loses its saltiness, it gets thrown out. Like we are called to look different than the rest of the world. And so I just felt like, man, what a cool way to engage in looking different. Like, hey, I'm gonna choose to not do this thing that is a massive idol in our culture. And and the other part to that is again, like Paul says, don't be filled with wine, which which leads to debauchery, be filled with the Holy Spirit. And so for me, it felt like a choice there. Like I knew for me personally, I couldn't be filled with both at the same time. And so I know that for you, your reasons for not drinking are very different. So you can share as much or as little as you want, but why don't you drink?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

I mean, essentially because it was problematic. You know, I always like to joke that the force is strong in my family, you know, like I do come from a line of you know, family history where there was alcoholism on both sides of the family. You know, like I don't think I ever really saw my grandparents ever really sober. You know, and you know, I had such a blessing where I think my dad, like he was really such a good steward of that because he kind of pendulum the other way, you know. I think I only saw him really drink like probably like 10 times, you know, if I really think about it, you know. So that was such a blessing in that regard. But because like I just had, you know, the DNA and the markers for me to be set up to struggle with alcohol, and I think that's something that we have to look at and examine too, because like there is a genetic component to it. Yeah, you know, if you come from a family history where alcoholism is present, you're way more likely to have an issue with it, and you may never actually have a normal relationship with it.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, you may never be able to have a normal relationship with it.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Absolutely, yeah. Like the ability to stop or limit or control is just physiologically different. You know, the 12-step recovery program calls it like an allergy of the body. You know, it's like when it enters my system, I have an allergic reaction, an abnormal response to alcohol than the typical person. Wow. And that was kind of what I experienced with that. You know, and I had gone through a lot of different seasons of, you know, hey, I'm gonna take a break. You know, when I was coming back to faith, as I mentioned before, you know, I took two years off of drinking and it was easy. Yeah, it was really easy at that time, you know. I was just pursuing God and that was enough, and you know, but I think it's a really insidious disease alcoholism, and it's almost like a downward staircase. Like maybe you don't experience consequences from it right away if you do have that genetic predisposition, but the longer you play with fire, the more likely you are to get burned. Yeah. And there was like a piece of wisdom that someone had shared with me that really stuck with me. It was actually, you know, your best friend's dad, you know, Mike, and he said, in his experience, you know, he had had someone say to him, you know, why do you build yourself up all day just to tear yourself down at night? Wow. And that really stuck with me, you know, because I I feel like that was something that was personal, but it was also something in our culture, yeah, too. I think that's typically what we do.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Wow. Wow. So for you, you guys when we started dating, I wasn't 21. So alcohol was never a part of our relationship. Then when I turn and you weren't drinking at the time. And then when I turn 21, I think it's really alcohol is something that's so easy to justify, and that's what's so sneaky. There's such a spiritual component to alcohol because it's so easy to justify, it is everywhere. Even coffee shops now sell alcohol, which is crazy to me. Um normalized. Yes, I'm I'm just kind of I might get passionate on this podcast because I'm so passionate about what an idol it is. And so it's so easy to justify. So when we started dating, I turned 21, it was just like, well, yeah, okay, I'll incorporate it back in. And we were both like, yeah, like great. And so, you know, we would start to kind of just incorporate it back into our lives, and then we go through seasons where you would kind of begin to share with me, like, hey, I think I could see this becoming a problem, or I'm I'm beginning to see myself getting home at night and thinking, I need a beer. And so then we would say, Okay, well, then let's cut it out. And then we'd go for a season. And what's so funny is I think the Lord does this with so many different areas, not just alcohol, but we hear something and we feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and then we're really good at it for a while, and then we're like, ah, the enemy sneaks in. Did God really say a lie, a tale as old as time?

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

All the way back to the garden. God says something to them, and then something tasty is right in front of them. The enemy sneaks in and says, What is that really what he said? Are you sure he doesn't want you to drink from that or eat from that tree? You know? And then you begin to question what God said, who God is, and your own identity.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

And I think that that happens with so many things, but that is what kept happening with alcohol. Even I remember there was a season where we had cut it out and we were at life group and we were leading our life group. And everyone in our life group after was like, well, let's go out, let's go get a drink, let's go, whatever. And you and I were like, Well, we can't be those like legalistic life group leaders who like aren't drinking. Let's just, and we both looked at each other, we were like, let's just, let's just go get a drink so we can, you know, be a part of the the I don't know, the crew, or not not seem judgmental, or not seem legalistic. Which again, when you look back, you're like, that's all just excuses. Um, but that is the sneaky thing that the enemy gets in there and says, Are you are you sure? Or he'll accuse your identity. Like you're gonna come across super legalistic. So we had gone through many seasons of not drinking, drinking, not drinking, drinking. Now, what was the point for you where you came to me and were like, I actually think I have a problem and we can't ever bring this back in. Like, we need to cut it out right now.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yeah, and I think that was kind of like, you know, a slow burn of kind of coming to terms with that. You know, because I've been so successful about just turning it off in the past, yeah, you know, you're kind of working under that justification, like, oh, I have that ability to stop at any time because look what I've done in the past. But kind of as I said, like it deepens, like it's really sneaky, it's really insidious, it grows slowly over time and kind of gets its claws in you in a way. Yeah, you know, from my experience. And you know, I had set out different rules for myself to keep boundaries with it, you know. I was like, I need to keep a pulse on this because it's I don't ever want to get to the point, you know, where I lose something, yeah, essentially. You know, so I'd set these rules for myself. I was like, I'm never gonna have more than two, I'm never gonna drink alone because like you shouldn't isolate. I think you just that's more like what's the point? Like, why are you drinking alone by yourself? Yeah, you know, and I'm never gonna drink when I'm sad. I'm only gonna drink when I'm it's celebratory, it's with people, it's fun. Yep, you know, and over a period a period of time, I broke every single rule.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

My rule of only having two, I'm only gonna have two. So then it was like, well, I could have two four percent, or I could have two nine percent. You know, so it was such like a sneaky self-deception of my own rules. It's like once alcohol was introduced, I was kind of like, well, what rules? And I I lost connection with the Holy Spirit and I lost connection with myself. And I think to go with that, you know, I had come to you at one point, was like, hey, I think this is really picking up speed. Like, will you never drink again with me?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Yeah, and for me, and just to say, I don't have an alcoholic brain or tendencies, and so for me, giving up chocolate for Lent was way harder for me than giving up alcohol. Like, literally, for me, I was like, Well, yeah, I don't need it. I don't even like it that much. So it was an easy decision.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Mm-hmm. I was so thankful that you were willing to at that time. But I think at this point, you know, I'd already let it grow too long. Yeah. So then when you stopped drinking, I actually didn't have the ability to. And then with the shame of d making this commitment and not being able to keep it, you know, I started drinking in secret.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

And then a double life started.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah, and that was really when you would say the addiction got bad. Is now you've asked me to stop drinking, you've committed to stop drinking, but the addiction had taken over. It was like, I remember you described it as like you felt like you were hijacked by somebody else. And um so you were now in a place where you're drinking in secret, and I have no idea. Can you talk to people a little bit about just what that was like for you? And I think just to be open about that could really, really speak to a lot of people who are maybe maybe struggling with that right now and the shame of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah, and I think, you know, it's almost like there's a fire at your back and it's getting closer and closer, but all you have to do is hit a button in front of you and it'll go away.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

The the law the wanting to drink?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

The the craving, you know, the desire for relief. Like once that addictive process kicks in, it literally feels like you're trapped. Wow. You know, it's like you can't live with it and you can't live without it.

SPEAKER_05 18:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I know there were times in which I felt awful, I didn't want it, but I was on my way.

SPEAKER_05 18:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

And it was horrible. It was like somebody, it was like there was a slave master, like leading my life, like you were being puppeted by this thing. And I almost like to per like personify alcohol, yeah, because it does feel that way. Yeah. And I I saw that, you know, in our relationship, but I also see it now on the other side of that, having the privilege to work or work with couples in that. It's almost like this third person enters the room. Yeah, you know, and I remember, you know, when I had like 90 to 120 days sober, it literally felt like something left my body. Wow. I had this awakening where it was just like, who had my body and what did they do with it?

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Like it it was that strong, it was that intense.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Wow. And you had described it, I remember in the big book. So the big book is basically the the AA kind of book that has the 12 steps and has everything. You had described it, you had said, um, I think something like it was a storm storm a storm shed moment. So the author of the big book had said there's a moment in addiction where you get sober enough to where you have this moment where you're like walking out of a storm shed after a big storm and you're looking out, and the storm is over. Like the fire at your back is gone, the addiction you feel like you've gotten a hold of, but now you're in a headspace to look around and see all the damage and the carnage that alcohol had on your life.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

And I remember that was such a powerful image when you described that to me. Like I had this moment where I just saw, and that's when you had said, like, it literally felt like something left my body. And I really want to speak to the spiritual aspect of addiction too. There's a very, very real psychological, physiological, genetic aspect to addiction, and it is a disease. However, oftentimes the enemy hops on that train and makes it a thousand times worse. There are very real demonic spirits, the Bible says, very clear. We are in a spiritual battle. There are very real demonic spirits. The enemy wants to kill, steal, and destroy your life. And there are very real demonic spirits that come and expand addiction and pile on the shame. You're never gonna get out of this, you're never gonna be free. You're never if they only knew, and it just piles on and it piles on and it piles on. And I wanna say you had people praying for you. Like I was praying for you. People in your life were praying for you that the spirit of addiction would be gone. And I fully believe that part of that storm shed moment, part of that like realizing who took over my body. Yes, it was physiological, psychological, but I full on believe there was a demonic aspect to it.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Where the torment just stopped. And I fully believe because I think there's there's a moment where with the demonic, we get to decide to step out of agreement with it. And it was like in that moment, you were like, that wasn't me. That's not who I am. And the demonic, and I remember you had that moment, and you you literally said it was a moment in a car where you just wept and wept, and you were like, What have I done? kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah, because I think that's like the difference between like shame and guilt. It's like in the midst of that season, I think there's something, you know, in addiction where you know it's like a shame relapse cycle. You relapse or you use it when you don't want to. Like Paul says, I do the things I don't want to do, the things I want to do, I don't do. And it's like you have the best intentions with it, and then you fall short. And then the enemy really brings in shame and condemnation. He wants he wants to attach your behavior to character.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

So he says, You aren't enough. You did this, you'll never be free. When really it's like the Holy Spirit. Unlock the ability to feel healthy guilt. Like I can see that my actions and behaviors were not beneficial to myself and others. And I can hold that without it needing to identify who I am as a person. Because that's what the enemy wants to do. He wants to distort the image of God in you. Yeah. You know, I think you were sharing that the other night.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

You know, and to make you essentially bad. Yes. To feel shame.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yes. And I want to just point out, too, because Ben and I were talking about this last night. So the difference between condemnation and conviction. Like if you're someone who is struggling with alcohol, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the laws of sin and death. Condemnation is not from the Lord. Condemnation is from Satan. Conviction is from the Holy Spirit. And we were talking about this last night. So Rob Reimer in his book Soul Care, which I love and cannot recommend enough, he talks about this difference. And condemnation is a vague, usually character accusation with no path forward. And the goal of it is to just make you feel horrible. So you're bad, you'll never be free, you've messed up, you're so shameful, God would be so ashamed of you, right? Conviction that comes from the Holy Spirit is um specific, it is loving, and there's a clear path forward. So conviction that comes from the Holy Spirit might look like, hey, Ben, alcohol's really not serving you. I want you to cut it out because I have so much freedom for you.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

And what's funny, you know, I guess ironic is that that is something that I experienced. And we talk about the physiological, you know, we have choice, we have the physiological aspects of that, we have all of our neurotransmitters that get affected. But the spiritual aspect that you were talking to, so I remember my brother and I had gone to this place called High Times in Costa Mesa. It was somewhere you could go and get different types of alcohol. And we were sitting in the parking lot before going in, and I paused and I just and I said out loud, I feel like the Lord is saying, This isn't what I have in the plans for your life.

SPEAKER_05 24:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

You know, and I actually verbalized that and I actually told my brother that.

SPEAKER_05 24:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

And then we sat there for a second, and then we went in. And then we drank after that.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

And I feel like that was the last time I heard the audible voice of God until I would become sober later.

SPEAKER_05 24:32

Wow. That's powerful.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Because I think he gave me that out, and I think he will give you that out.

SPEAKER_05 24:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

He will bring up that sense of loving conviction.

SPEAKER_05 24:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

You know?

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

But it was but we have to choose it.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Wow. You know what that reminds me of? So it really reminds me of Matthew 18, and I want to read this. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed 10,000 bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that they had be sold to repay the debt. At this the servant fell on his knees and before him and said, Be patient with me, he begged, and I will pay back everything. The servant's master took pity on him and cancelled the debt and let him go. But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. Pay back what you owe me, he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, Be patient with me and I will pay it back. But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown in prison until he could pay back the debt. When the other servants saw what happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. The master called the servant in and said, You wicked servant, he said, I cancelled all the debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have the same mercy on your fellow servants just as I had on you? In his anger, the master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured until he should pay back all that he owed. And so, yes, this message is about forgiveness and unforgiveness, and we could dissect that all day. But what really stuck out to me and reminded me of what you were saying is like you, God gave you an out.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

He gave you an out. And it's like it's not that God is saying, okay, now I'm going to punish you for not taking that out. Because God doesn't punish, he forgives, there's no condemnation. However, sometimes God takes the reins off and say, if you're going to choose another master, I'm going to hand you over to it.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

He will, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Because he's never forceful. He's loving, he will come after us, but he will never force us. And I think that spiritual aspect of what happens, like, okay, I'm going to hand you over then to that master to be tormented. And it's like, man. It's on one hand, again, the loving character of God to say, like, I told you this isn't what I have for you, but I'm going to let you see what it's like then. And God in his kindness brought you out of it, and you now have sobriety under your belt, and you are years away from that. But just can you speak a little bit to that process and like what that was like for you?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

I think there was a lot of like ego death that had to happen. Wow. You know, it was like coming to terms with the struggle in the first place. And I think the hardest part of the struggle was actually, you know, another idol, which is like an idol of reputation, essentially. What will people think if they knew? Wow. You know, what would that mean for my career? What would that mean for my relationship? What would that mean to my family members? What would it mean to my spouse, you know, if they found out? And that is the very thing that actually makes it the hardest to stop. You know, it's uh it's the fear of man, essentially. Yeah. You know, above, you know, reverence for God. It was what what are people gonna think? What are they gonna say?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Yeah, once again, where the demonic piles on with the physiological aspect of addiction. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

But I think it looked like the program talks about relapse as part of recovery, and a lot of people use that to justify relapse sometimes. Wow. But really, it's supposed to like, yes, like we're gonna fall. We're gonna as you try something new, as your body is detoxing, as you're creating new neural pathways, as you're building an accountability and support system, you know. But it's like, how do you continually fall forward? And that's kind of what like what it was like. It was like, great, I made it a month, okay, there's relapse. Okay, I made it three months, okay, great, there's a relapse, you know. But it's like, how do we continue to fall forward, you know, and not revert back, you know, to the way things were before and continue to like fix your eyes on what God does have for you. But it was tumultuous and it was laden with you know heartbreak and wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

And even I just think that alcohol addiction or drug addiction or whatever addiction might be the most obvious, but isn't that all of our spiritual walks? Like, aren't we all supposed to just fall forward? Like, there's this song that I love, it's called Um At the Altar. And one of the lines says, it's worship song, it says, I'm running, stumbling, I know, but I'm coming. And it's like, that's it. Like, we're all just like little kids who are just trying to run to our parents so they can lift us up and make us laugh. But like sometimes we face plant in the grass, and sometimes we like just stumble and fall. But the idea is like, don't let the moments of failing make you turn back to what was. Yeah, like let your moments, I love that, fall forward. And I remember you had said that so many times, like, fall forward. Like, and I think that that's such a word for anyone listening, dealing with anything. Like, you're gonna fall. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Like, Paul said that. Paul, Paul's the one who said in Romans 7 what you quoted earlier. I do the things I don't want to do, and what I don't do, I want to do, and what I want to do, I don't do, and who can help me? Like, who can save me? Like, what a wretched man I am.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Thanks be to God who delivers me in Christ Jesus, our Lord. That's Romans 7, and then goes into, therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the spirit of life has set you free from the laws of sin and death. Like if you're listening right now, and whether it's alcohol addiction or something else that just has a grip, like you have to choose right now to, I'm going to live into who God says I am. I'm going to live into the fact that there is no condemnation. So if I hear another voice that is not the loving voice of God that says, come here, that's not who God is. And you're gonna stumble, you're gonna fall, but you're gonna fall forward. I love that so much. So, kind of moving on from your own personal story with it, what I really want to talk about is alcohol as an idol in our culture. So, this season, living living as exiles in an empire, like that imagery I pull from the Babylonian exile in scripture when the uh kingdom of Israel and Judah were taken into exile in Babylon. They were placed in a culture that was in direct opposition to Yahweh, to God's kingdom. It was full of idol worship. It was full, and the thing was, we like to think of the exiles as like these like, oh, poor, suffering people. No, they were placed in nice spaces. Like you think of like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and Daniel, they were in the king's courts. They were given everything they could want: the nicest food, the nicest beds. Like, think about Orange County. King Nebuchadnezzar wanted the exiles to want to be there. Yeah, he wanted the exiles to want to bow to the idols, to want to worship them. So he gave them all the best stuff. And then everybody was confused when Daniel's like, yeah, we're not gonna eat that nice meat. Just give us some vegetables and just see what happens. Like, and man, is that a picture for the principalities and powers of Orange County? Like, we know, Paul says the battle is not against flesh and blood. There are principalities and powers and spiritual forces at war, and there are principalities and powers specifically over different areas. And Orange County, man, they want you to want to assimilate. They want you to want to look the same, to drink the same drinks, to do the same things, to spend the same money, to be in the empire. And what the empire says about alcohol is have fun. You need it, you deserve it. Like, drunkenness isn't a problem. Like it's letting loose liquid courage. Like what the empire says about alcohol is not what God would have to say about alcohol. And so I want to just talk about it as an idol because once again, it's not the same with social media, like we talked about in the last episode. It's not inherently evil.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

It's not.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

But if we're not careful to examine our heart posture towards it and its place in our life, it can become an idol. And we know an idol, if you're listening and you're like, what is an idol? An idol is anything that you worship that is not God. Anything that you bow to. If you want to take a list or uh take a look and examine your life and say, what are the idols in my life? The easiest things you can do, look at your calendar and look at your bank account. What am I spending and look at your thought life? What am I spending the most money on? What am I spending the most time on? What am I spending the most of my thought life on? And I think you'll see pretty quick what the idols are in your life. And alcohol is such, I mean, it's at every party, every social gathering is around alcohol. And I want to just say whether or not you're someone who has an addiction, alcohol can still be an idol in your life.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

The thing about idols is they will take and take and take. They overpromise, they underdeliver. C. S. Lewis says, idols break the hearts of their worshipers. They will never actually give you what you're looking for and what they're promising. Alcohol promises, again, a relief, relaxation at the end of the day, liquid courage, um, social connection. And what it really is, is a counterfeit of everything you can find in the kingdom of God and through the Holy Spirit. And so I what I really want to say and invite the listeners into is like anything in our culture that becomes an idol, God's plan for you might not be cut it out. You know, it's like I'm not here saying everybody needs to stop drinking, but what I am saying is everybody needs to put alcohol on the altar and say, take a step back and say, where is this in my life?

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Lord, what do you think of this?

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yes. Yes. Can you speak to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah, I I think it's something for you know everyone to be able to at least be able to ask the question.

SPEAKER_03 35:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

You know, Lord, what do you think about this?

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

You know, and I think even if you're listening to this podcast and it makes you angry, or maybe it makes you defensive, or maybe it's like automatically it goes to, well, this doesn't apply to me. You know, I think that's uh you should have some curiosity.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

You know, like, okay, like what is this resistance that's rising up in me?

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

You know, that maybe doesn't want to even listen to this podcast or entertain the conversation or ask the question, you know, because when we do earnestly seek God and ask the question, like He will give us an answer and He will give us that conviction, you know, if it is an issue. And I think it's just something that we need to keep a pulse on. It's not static, it's dynamic, it's always changing.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

You know, and even having those seasons where you reflect, like, hey, like what role is this playing in my life? It doesn't mean that you're gonna be an irreversible addiction.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

But what order of importance is it placing in your life?

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Tragically, I've worked with a lot of couples recently where they actually split because of the importance of alcohol. You know, they prioritized, you know, their ability to take the edge off, to feel liquid courage, to cope with work, you know, to experience fun, you know, or they couldn't golf as well without alcohol. So that was more important than, you know, evaluating their relationship with it. So it's like if we put our, you know, let's say that God, our marriage, you know, anything else, like family, kids, you know, all those things should be, you know, essentially we want to live a productive life above that.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

You know, and too often I see that alcohol is right at the top.

SPEAKER_03 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

You know, and where, you know, essentially, is it, are you triangulating alcohol in between your relationship with God? Like, do you are you quicker to go to alcohol than you are to seek God's counsel and wisdom and love and support? Or what about your spouse? You know, are you taking the edge off with alcohol before you've even told your spouse how your day was? Before they've even had an opportunity to give you a hug or give you words of affirmation or encouragement or go for a walk. I think our culture is too quick to turn to alcohol because it's permissible. Yeah. Because it's it's just the norm.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

You know, but Romans 12 says, like, do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Then you'll be able to test and approve what God's good, pleasing, and perfect will is. And to speak to what you're saying, like, yes, I think it's so easy to conform because instead of seeking God, like, what do you think of this God in my life personally for me? Yeah, what role would you like this to play?

SPEAKER_05 38:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Because it's so easy, I'll see people compare. Well, I'm not as bad as that person. Well, I don't drink that much. Yeah. You know, but what if your friend group is loosely alcoholic or excessively binges and you're judging your relationship with alcohol based on someone else's behavior? Wow. When what if God wants to invite you into something more personal? Wow. Because I think we have the freedom to do whatever we want, but not everything produces the experience of freedom in our life. So we have the freedom to drink or not drink or do and don't do, but what's where's the fruit? Yeah. You know, we know what the fruit of the Holy Spirit is: love, joy, peace, patience, perseverance, long suffering. Yeah. You know, and we know where in self-control, right? So we know that where that's gonna take us. But what is the fruit of alcohol?

SPEAKER_00 39:16

The opposite of self-control. And that's the thing, I think, is I mean, you said so much good stuff there. Like, whoo! I think the fruit of alcohol is produces it promises the counterfeit of everything that God promises. Alcohol promises courage. The Lord says, be strong and courageous, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go. Alcohol promises relief. Jesus says, Come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. It promises relief, but hands you torment.

SPEAKER_07 39:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

It promises relief, but takes away all of your self-control. And it's like, I think that even what you said about Romans 12, people love to stop there at don't be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, right? People love that. And that's that's I mean, enough said right there. However, that second part is so important and you actually have it tattooed on your chest. It's like then you will be able to discern what God's perfect will is. This is your proper form of worship. It's like if we're supposed to offer our whole lives to God as pleasing sacrifices in worship, but we're instead being conformed to the patterns of alcohol or the patterns of this world, it's like scripture invites us to renew our minds. The Holy Spirit has the ability to literally rewire your neural pathways. You have you have new neurons firing in your brain every single morning. Every day, your brain is actually being renewed. And what alcohol does is it's studies or finding is actually poisonous to your brain. It does the opposite of renewing your mind. It doles your senses, it doles everything. And it actually, from what you had described to your personal experience, it makes everything less exciting. Everything is less fun without alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah, it because the way it works on your nervous system and how it affects dopamine, when you drink, you get a large flush of dopamine in your system. When you drink, let's say multiple times a week, you know, you're getting so much dopamine that your your brain essentially says, well, we don't need to produce as much dopamine because you're giving us so much. If we have too much, we're gonna be out of sync.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

So your body actually and brain actually starts producing less dopamine over time, which that's why it's like, oh, this sunset's really nice, but it'd be really nice to have a drink. Why? Because you're actually conditioning your body to be less um responsive to natural wonder, awe, joy, fulfillment. So oftentimes it's hard to even enjoy what would normally be an enjoyable experience because your brain literally isn't producing pleasure.

SPEAKER_06 41:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

So then you try to do things without alcohol and you're like, I feel nothing. Or it's not as fun. Or and I think that's a big thing, is like sometimes we'll ask, like, you know, I want to go drink, who's coming with me? When we should be asking, like, who do I want to hang out with and what should we do? Yeah. You know, I think it's it's a hard posture, as you're saying. Like, what is the role that it's playing? Because there's a lot of stuff too, because it's like, I think when we like cope with alcohol when we're stressed, we actually reduce our stress response over time. So it's like, I need the this to take the edge off. But then you're actually taking the edge off of your resilience because it does make you more like irritable, like your frustration tolerance goes down, your emotion regulation goes down.

SPEAKER_06 42:47

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

And that's what's tricky to it too, because it increases your tolerance. So it's like there's an anxiety avoidance cycle. If we feel stress and then we use something to avoid that stress, it actually increases the fear of that thing, increases our anxiety over time, and increases our dependence on the coping strategy.

SPEAKER_05 43:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

So if we cope with alcohol, you know, say, hey, I need to take it was a stressful day, I need to take the edge off. Yeah, you might feel better in the moment, but it decreases your frustration tolerance and it decreases your emotion regulation over time. And the more you do it, and then the more you actually need to continue to satisfy that effect. But what it does is you'll probably end up being more irritable in your relationships. You'll have less patience with your spouse, you know, you'll have less patience with your kids, you'll be less present because you're actually decreasing your nervous system's ability to cope.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Wow. Wow. I mean, I just love learning about that because it's like then you look at the spiritual component to it and you're like, oh yeah, and then the enemy jumps on it, and there's what idols do is they will take and take and take. And every time you go to them, you'll become more enslaved, where they're actually promising freedom, but they're actually putting more chains on you. Whereas God does the opposite. He gives and gives and gives himself away, so much so, even death on a cross.

SPEAKER_07 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

He gives and gives and gives his spirit. That's actually fascinating. So the promise is come to this thing, you'll find relief, but then it decreases your ability to function in the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Mm-hmm. So you actually need relief more often because you can't cope with stress as much.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

And then it'll it'll convince you that everything else is the problem. Because you can't actually like, if you're not aware of that, you don't realize that you're becoming more irritable over time. So then you start being irritated by everyday events, like, oh, my spouse left, you know, a dish in the sink. Normally that wouldn't be an issue. But if you're chronically decreasing your stress tolerance over time, suddenly you're gonna think, oh my gosh, my spouse is the problem. It's not alcohol, it's not this, it's not that. Wow, my boss is just so overbearing. Wow, these people on the freeway keep cutting me out. Like you're gonna find another thing to focus that frustration on because you've actually decreased your ability to tolerate stress.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

Wow. And would you say that goes for any addiction like pornography, drugs, um, sex addiction, gambling? Like, is that kind of a similar process?

SPEAKER_01 45:27

So it it's a little bit different, but it can be similar. Wow. You know, just because like the substance has a different impact on the way that your like neurotransmitters and your body functions, but psychologically, I think it's very similar.

SPEAKER_05 45:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Whatever you put in that placeholder, you know, to seek relief or to you know to seek escape, essentially, you're rewiring your nervous system.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Wow. What did the healing process look like for you once you became sober?

SPEAKER_01 46:03

I think it was challenging, you know, because you know, as I said before, your body kind of downregulates and nothing feels as bright or as shiny as it did when you were reliant. Right? So, you know, things don't feel as joyful. So it was harder to see progress until, you know, I think that's why treatment programs typically are like 90 days, you know, because that's about how long it takes for your body to actually reset and to start functioning properly again. So if you are in that place and you stop, you know, it might not get better for a little while. You know, it might be more about long-term gratification than short-term gratification. Because that's what you know, addiction is essentially. It's I want to feel better now, but I'm gonna borrow from my future self. Wow. And then we just do that perpetually until there's no self left to borrow from. But, you know, in recovering, like it it is about kind of trusting the process. That's what the program says. It's like trust the process, you know, seek wisdom and counsel. Let other people believe in you until you believe in yourself. Like that let them champion your recovery because you might not be in a place where you can feel it for yourself. Like it's not about feelings, it's just like you just have to trust that God is gonna carry you through and he has more for you on the other side. But I mean, it's hard. It's really hard. It's it's you know, picking up your cross and dying daily.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Wow. I mean, I was just telling a friend the other day, like people who have worked the program or people who are sober, I have so much respect for and so much admiration because it is this like dying to self every single day in a way that I think a lot of us who haven't wrestled with addiction don't actually get the opportunity to do, or don't actually things aren't bad enough to where we don't actually have to die to ourselves much. And I think that's why, like, honestly, why spiritual practices like fasting or abstinence from certain things are sucky sometimes, but a gift because it's this crucifying of the flesh that someone who's worked the program, like honestly, people who over at the program and are sober are the most like fascinating, self-aware, humble people most times in my experience, because they've done the work that a lot of us who haven't worked the program. I think everybody should work the 12 steps, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Um only the first one is about substances, everything else is about you know becoming whole.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

That's wild. Because I mean, I mean, there's making amends, which is wild, where you literally go around to people you've hurt and ask for their forgiveness. I mean, that's inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

And letting go of resentments. Yes. And also seeing like what part your actions and behaviors played a role. I think in society, we tend to look at like what did the other person do? And the steps are a beautiful process of you know, gaining the ability to look for what was my role in this, what part did I play?

SPEAKER_00 49:12

And that's the thing with anything that becomes an idol, it's usually not about the thing. There are things that are inherently bad. However, when we talk about things like social media alcohol, like what it, it's about the heart. Like Proverbs, I think it's, I could be wrong, 423, I believe, says, don't quote me on it, says, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Like everything you do flows from your heart. And so, what is your heart posture towards this thing? And even just speaking to, like, there's some things in life that again, what you said, we have the freedom to do whatever we want. Once again, God is not forceful, he's not abusive, he's not manipulative, he's not controlling. When you seek him, you'll find him. Like James says, um, repent of your sin and turn away from evil. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. But he's not gonna force himself on you if you're actively rejecting him. Um and I think that again, in our culture, we can we can do whatever we want. But number one, is it beneficial to our souls and our development and our sanctification, which sanctification is just a fancy way of saying our becoming like Jesus and growing in his image. Um, and we have the freedom to do anything we want, but again, is it going to produce freedom in Christ? And I think that Christians specifically sometimes we can abuse our freedoms in order to not seem legalistic. Like the excuse that I feel that we use for the longest time. Well, I don't want to seem like one of those legalistic judgmental Christians. Can I tell you that since I stopped drinking, I haven't drank in probably like four or five years? I have never once at a party been accused of being a legalistic Christian. Do you want to know what happens at a party when I don't drink? I get to pray for people, I get to see healings. I end up in the corner and someone is opening up to me about something they've been struggling with for a really long time, and the Spirit of God is like right there. Like, man oh man. Like I once had someone at a party open up to me about something they were really struggling with, and I got to then commit to praying for them. I set an alarm on my phone and I prayed for them every single day. And now they're walking in the um answer to that prayer. And again, I'm not tuning my own horn, but what I'm saying is, what if you had your actual sober-minded self walking into every space that you walk into so that you could see with the eyes of the spirit what God is up to in a room? And I think that's the important thing to ask yourself when evaluating the place of alcohol in your life is can I be filled with the Holy Spirit? Because he will take up every space you give him. And so for me, it's not about legalism. Like I think if I decided to drink, that I don't think God would be mad. Now, I do actually want to say, if the Lord, the alcohol isn't a sin, but if the Lord asks you not to drink and you choose to do anyways, that becomes the sin. The thing itself is not the sin, the disobedience becomes the sin. But what I want to say is like we're called to be salt and light, and I remember two instances. One, Ben and I went to a party, and it was a New Year's Eve party, and it was a bunch of people from our church, and there was alcohol there, and there was this guy there who had just given his life to Jesus. And it was so, it was like bone-chilling because he looks at us and he was like, Wow, I didn't know Christians could still like party and get drunk. This is awesome. And we were like, oh crap.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

He saw no difference.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

He saw no difference. There was no salt and light at that party. That party was not salty, it was dull. And again, there's no condemnation, but there's an invitation into holiness. And I think that the difference is it's not about legalism, it's about how desperately desperate are you for holiness.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Like at church on Sunday, I've been leading worship at Viewpoint Church, and Ryan, the pastor, he talked about the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. And he talked about like what a man to be filled with the Holy Spirit while he's being literally tortured and murdered, to look up to heaven and see heaven open, his face glows with the power of the Holy Spirit, and he has the ability to pray, God, don't hold this sin against them. Now, I just have to believe you can't get to that point if you're serving two masters.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Like we want to see, I think I hear people say all the time, like, I want to see the miracles. Like, I want to, you know, I don't, I want to see a move of God in my life. I want to be like Steven. And it's like, okay, well, are we are we that sold out? And I'm preaching to both of us right now, like, are we that sold out? Like, are we so desperate for holiness that the second anything smells of of the world, we put it down. And so again, that might not be. Alcohol might be something you're totally fine with. And I really, really want to make that clear. If you're someone who just loves to the occasional glass of wine, like that's not a sin. But again, it comes back to the heart and it comes back to the longing for holiness. Like we talk about, like, oh, the book of Acts, like, I wish we could see that today. When it's like, I'm pretty sure they were 100% sold out, not worried about coming across as legalistic to the rest of the world. Because that's really fear of man. And that's another idol. So, Ben, I want to ask you for someone who's listening and is like, okay, I'm feeling like I might need to bring this to the Lord. Um, I want to first encourage the listeners. If you're listening to this podcast and you're feeling like your heart's pounding, or you're feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit, don't ignore it.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Like, I just like don't let this podcast in and go about your day. Like, I want to invite you even just to pause it right now and either pray and ask God, or even be as bold as to text a friend, like, hey, there's something I want to talk to you about. Um and so I want you to speak to someone who who is listening, and alcohol might be a problem. What would your advice be in kind of going about seeking freedom?

SPEAKER_01 56:03

I would say, like, similar to what you're saying, like, don't do it alone. You know, bring somebody into the conversation with you. I think it loses its power when there's an accountability factor, when you speak it out in truth. Like that's similar to like the power of confession when you we confess our sins, you know, like we're also filled with the spirit, and you know, he's gonna give us the strength and resources that that we need, but it also just reduces the shame, the isolation. Because I think to struggle in silence is the most, you know, concerning thing, and that's when it can really pick up speed.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

I guess like I would also just like start implementing a few things, like you know, start seeing like can I keep any boundaries with this? Like, do I have the ability? If I set for some boundaries, like, okay, like I'm only gonna drink on the weekends, I'm not gonna drink during the week, I'm not gonna drink when I'm stressed. Like, you know, do some experiments, see if you actually have the ability to control it, or do some hypothesis testing to see like what does it look like when I do remove this from the picture for X amount of time? Yeah, how do I think? How do I feel? How does my body respond? How's my sleep? You know, because it it does affect mine body spirit. You know, am I more irritable? It affects it on all levels.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

Yep, yep. And and here's the thing. Once again, there is no shame. Like, I'm sitting here with someone who is completely free. And I remember the other day you were sharing with someone about your sobriety, and they asked you, Well, how do you feel now? And your first answer was, so free. So free. Like, there is freedom on the other side. And I think the biggest lie that the enemy will try to throw at you is you're never gonna get free. Or if you give up this thing, or if you tell someone, and it's like anything the enemy tells you not to do, you usually probably want to run in the opposite action. Like it is opposite action. I love that. It's like once again, like what James says, like flee, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Yeah, and then you can draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. But if you're someone who your immediate thought is like, I can't.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

You can. You can. You can. You have to. You have to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

You have to.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

Because that it is total opposite action. It's you know, you can't tell anyone what will they think, and but on the other side of doing those things is freedom and wholeness and belonging. Because I think that's the beauty of the church, if the church done right, you know, is like we actually have a fellowship of believers and support system to champion us through when we don't have the strength. I think of the picture of, you know, when God has Moses raise the staff over his head. Yeah. You know, he says, as long as you hold the staff over your head, you're you will be victorious. And the battle is going on, and Moses' strength is waning, and his arms start to fall. And then Aaron comes up and Joshua come up beside him and they help him raise his arm so he can keep the staff up. Yeah. And we need people in our life that we can be honest with that, when we don't have the strength or resources or resilience, they can champion for us and they can be in the trenches with us. I think bringing it out into light and being willing to just say, like, hey, I don't know for sure. I don't know if I have an issue with this, but I don't necessarily like how this is making me feel. I don't like how I'm this is becoming a priority, you know, in my relationships or how I'm feeling about it. Like, can we just have like an open accountability or, you know, can you check in with me about this and just see see how I'm doing with it? You know, it doesn't have to be like this complete, you know, excommunication of alcohol, right? But it's like, what does it look like to keep a pulse on it? And to just even be willing to ask the questions and invite people into having a conversation about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Yeah, yeah. And I I even I read a story or um I even read a study uh this past week that talks about how sharing secrets with a close, trusted friend, like sharing things that you've been holding in, actually produces oxytocin in your brain, thus um tightening your bond with that person, and same with God. And so where the enemy says, if you tell anyone, they'll hate you, they'll judge you, they won't be, it's it's once again, he's the father of lies.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Whatever he's telling you, run in the opposite direction, and it's probably the opposite is true. And so it's like if the enemy is telling you, like, don't share with anyone, they won't, um, they won't believe in you anymore, or they won't like you, or they'll they'll shame you. And it's like if you find the close, trusted person in your life, and God is the most trustworthy person that you could ever possibly go to, your brain's actually gonna release oxytocin and you're gonna be more bonded with that person instead of a wedge. What sin does, it's that sin creates the wedge between us and God and us and others. Sin causes us to isolate. James again says he talks about sin a lot, I guess. It talks about like what sin does is when it says when you are dragged away by your evil desires, it's like Satan will always drag us away. The Holy Spirit will always move towards us and always push us into community. So if you feel like alcohol or once again, any idol in your life, is dragging you away and causing you to isolate from community. If you feel like you have to hide something, that's probably your first indicator that it's an idol or it's a it's a problem in your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Yeah, and I will kind of add on to that too. I think it's important not to have like an echo chamber. And I think the person you decide to share with is really important, you know, whether that be a trusted loved one, a family member, you know, someone you can be like completely vulnerable and transparent with. Because I think, you know, even in my own personal experience, I had shared with a close friend, I said, like, I think I actually have an issue with this. And he goes, Nah, man, you don't have an issue with this at all. I drink way more than you do. So the vulnerability, like that was a big opportunity for me to try trying to come to terms with my relationship with alcohol. And I was met with justification and comfort that I don't have an issue because he drank more than I did. So for me to have an issue meant that he had an issue with it. He couldn't admit he had an issue with it, so he couldn't allow me to admit it.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:44

Whoa, that's so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

And drinking continued.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:46

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

So be really careful of like who is your wise counsel. You know, I think this goes way beyond alcohol, too. Yes. You know, I think sometimes we have the confirmation bias. Like, I'm thinking this, is that cool? Okay, now that you've co-signed my behavior, I I can essentially sear my conscience. I don't have to feel bad about that anymore. But what we did is we quenched the Holy Spirit in us, and now we will no longer be able to hear truth because we just confirmed what we already wanted to hear.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

Wow. Wow. So good. Yeah, because I mean, it it really is about finding the person who's not gonna be your yes man, you know, and I think like hopefully, if you're married, that's your spouse. If you're not married, hopefully that's a close trusted friend, which is once again why community is so important and it's like iron sharpens iron. It's like it's so good to have friendships in your life who aren't just gonna be your cheerleaders, but they're actually gonna be your like, hey, I'm actually seeing this, you know, and so I think that's such good advice.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

People who can speak the truth in love.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Yes, yes. And once again, the Holy Spirit, like tuning your ear to his voice as well, like tuning your ear, like scripture says uh Jesus says, My sheep hear my voice, or my sheep know my voice. And it's like, are you spending enough time with Jesus, more time with Jesus than you're spending doing that thing? Because the more time I mean you said this when you came back to Christ, it wasn't like all your sins stopped. It wasn't like all your behaviors, everything just stopped immediately. But it's like on this journey now of being, you know, 13, 14 years back into giving your life over to Jesus, it's like you've you you said it best, like he slowly spoke to things, he slowly took things away, like he slowly convicted me of things. He's not this mean God who's gonna be like, now stop it right now. You know, it's like I'm not gonna accept you unless you're perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Absolutely. It's invitational. Yes, you know, God is not a condemning judgmental God, he's just saying, like, hey, you know, the way you're going about that, or like this isn't as helpful as you think it is. Like, I have concerns for you. I'm putting this on your heart to end to invite you into my goodness, into peace, into freedom, into wholeness.

unknown 1:05:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

And I want to say, like, alcohol's not the only addiction. I think it was um a mentor of mine taught who said, we're all addicts. Yeah, it's just like to what? You know, and that goes for, I mean, social media, busyness, work, affirmations, um, people pleasing, alcohol, drugs, pornography, like some of them are just more obvious than others, but the call for all of us is holiness. And um yeah, if you're someone who is struggling with addiction, whether it's drugs, pornography, um, alcohol, uh, sex addiction, whatever it is, like I just want to say there's hope. Do not buy into the lie that you will never be free. Do not buy into the lie that this is always the way it's gonna be. Our God. A God, He's a promise keeper, He is a God who promises restoration, who promises that if we turn to Him, we will find Him and He will set us free. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

There is freedom.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

And and so if you are someone who's an addiction, we're gonna put some resources for you in the um episode information on where to get help, uh, AA meetings, books you can read. Um, but really I think the main thing is don't do it alone. Don't let shame keep you enslaved.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

I think just keep an open mind. You know, if your initial thought is, you know, I don't really have an issue with this, or it doesn't have much bearing on my life. I just think, you know, be curious, you know, because again, it's not static, it's dynamic, it does change with time, and it might be different in seasons. Maybe you don't have it right now, but you like log this information because, like, let's say you go through a car accident or loss or grief, you know, will you have the same relationship with it when stress is increased, right? When crest is stress is increased, we tend to, you know, rely more on our coping resources. So whether it's alcohol or anything else, you know, pursue the positive. Yeah, you know, don't just focus on the negative of trying to get things out. But, you know, it's almost like kind of this image of like if you have a dirty glass of water, you know, you can kind of take tongs and try and get the dirt out, but it doesn't really work. Like the best way, you know, to be free is to pursue God with all your heart, mind, and soul. And like a clean pitcher of water, you pour that in and it flushes everything out. You know, so you know, surrender, you know, to God, like ask his opinion about it and pursue him with all your mind and he will make it clear.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

That's so good. To your point, Ben, like there's so many psalms where David, King David, a man after God's heart, right? He doesn't say like, great, I've arrived, right? It's like he's constantly praying. Psalm 51, Psalm 139. Search me and know me, like convict me of my sins and lead me in the way of the everlasting. And I think that that's such an important prayer to pray. It was a couple years ago, I really took on confession as a practice and really took on that prayer of like, search my heart and know me. Again, not out of a legalism, but out of a desire for holiness and nearness to Jesus. Um, because when we invite him in, that's when it's gonna be conversational. That's when it's gonna be like, oh, okay, Lord, yeah, like I see that, I see that. And it might be painful, but on the other side of it, there's freedom.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:47

And so, um, yeah, if you're someone who uh is struggling with really any addiction, there's hope. God has a plan for you, God has good things for you. You will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. That's another promise of scripture. And and one other thing that I just want to speak to is I think that addiction has a stigma. Um, I think that Hollywood has made it into this thing of like, oh well, they're just an addict, or and it reduces someone down to that identity. And I think that I mean, if you really look at addiction, it's a way to cope with pain and trauma. And it's it's usually someone who has been through really, really hard stuff, and they've gone and they've coped in all these ways, and just because your coping looks different than my coping, it's like it it doesn't make anyone any less than. And so if you are someone who struggled with addiction and dealing with the label or the stigma of it, like I just pray that you would know that that is not how God sees you, that is not how we sitting here see you. Yeah, um, and honestly, like I've heard you say this to people like good job for being alive right now. Like, good job for some people have gone through the most horrific things and all they knew how to do at that moment was grab alcohol because they just needed the pain to stop.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

Yeah. And I mean I've sat with so many individuals where you know, if they hadn't, you know, turned to drugs and alcohol, they you know, they might not be here. Wow, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

Wow. And so now it's like, okay, we're gonna deal with the pain, and now you don't need those coping mechan mechanisms anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:44

You've outgrown them.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:45

Yeah. Um, and that's why I mean therapy is so important. We didn't even talk about therapy. You're a therapist, like therapy is so important um in just receiving the tools to be able to find new coping mechanisms. Um, and so if you're someone who has been wondering about therapy or like, is therapy for me? Well, I always say everybody needs therapy. Different seasons of life, like, not that everyone needs to be in it their whole life, but everybody should go to therapy and just have a safe space to process, gain tools on coping mechanisms, um, processing emotions. Um, and so I think that therapy and spirituality actually can go hand in hand and do go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

They do.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:32

And I think it kind of brings up sanctification. You know, it's like we're called, we know the word, we know, you know, what we're being called to, but how do we actually be sanctified into the process of walking that out?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:44

You know, I I was on the prayer team at Rock Harbor a long time ago, and then I I would sit with people in prayer, and then, you know, hearing the the sh things that they would bring to the table, I was like, I absolutely believe in the supernatural power of prayer, but this is something that needs to be walked out. This is gonna be long suffering. I think there are times, you know, even in the Bible, where people are miraculously healed, and then some things are walked out in long obedience over time. And that has been my more of my story. Like I've seen so many miraculous healing healings where it's just like I was delivered in a moment. Yeah, you know, but a lot of my experience has been more like long suffering and like continuing in the same direction, pursuing Jesus and seeing those things transformed gradually over time. Because you're right, we never arrive. Yeah, you know, we're always being sanctified and becoming more like Christ until we get to go be with him.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

And I think we need help and support, you know, putting that into practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:43

Yeah, so good. Wow. Well, thank you so much for being on today.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:50

It's a privilege.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

My favorite guest. Sorry, everybody else. Um so I have one question that I ask, and it changes every week. But if you could be in a book club with Jesus, what book would you read? And you can't see the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:05

Oh, I was gonna- I mean, I know is Chronicles of Narnia also in that count.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:13

I love it, it's a parallel. Like in an eyelin.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

Wink wink. I would say that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

Wait, you kind of took me an answer. I think that's what I would say. Would you have the or honestly the hunger games? Like leaping at the reaping, but then I just watched.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

Nice touch there.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:31

No, literally though. We just watched the Hunger Games, and when Catnus, when the little sister, what's her name, gets prim, primrose, she gets called. She gets given a death sentence. Cadmus is like, I volunteer as tribute. Literally takes her place. We both had to pause the movie and I look at him and I'm crying. I'm like, are you like getting wrecked by this right now? Like, we were given a death sentence, and Jesus literally volunteered as tribute. I would 100% read the Hunter Games of Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:05

Anyways, well, thank you so much, Ben. This was so much fun. You will definitely be back on.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

Thanks for having me. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:14

Thank you for listening to the Fragrance Podcast. We'd love for you to subscribe, like, and write a review for this episode. Fragrance is a 501c3 nonprofit ministry, and your donations are tax deductible. If you'd like to support Fragrance, you can click on the link in the episode info.